All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[supposebly]

That makes no difference to me. 100 years, 40 years, 10 years, it doesn't matter, I simply found it ridiculously manipulative and stupid writing. It's like a 4 year old telling me that he is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad. Instead of trusting the viewer that we would find it horrible enough that he was tortured in Hell for 3 months 24/7 and broke in the last, they went for something that is so out there that it's completely unbelievable that he even remembers who he is, let alone walk upright.

 

Never mind being in the mindset of a torturer for 10 years. But there he is, digging himself out of his grave, clear enough in his mind to call Bobby, hotwire a car, and make a visit. No change whatsoever to his personality. How was that actual breaking?

 

I actually don't think one can accurately write or portray such a thing and they should have kept it in the realm of believability. They already made it bad enough by being Hell.

 

It's not just torture, it's Hell. So, it's already beyond what we can imagine. No need to pile it on like that. Maybe my inner catholic is showing but this is the worst that can happen and he walked around with a little PTSD.

 

They didn't trust the viewer, they didn't trust the actors and this is when the Winchesters started to become inhuman to me.

I wouldn't quite call it my Jump-the-Shark moment but it certainly changed my view of the characters in a fundamental way in that I stopped emphasizing as before. Sam's Head-Lucifer was just more of the same.

 

But maybe we should move this to the All Seasons thread. Sorry for derailing.

Edited July 25, 2014 by supposebly

[DittyDotDot]

I agree @supposebly, it makes no difference how long he was tortured, it should have affected him more than needing a fifth of whiskey to get out of bed each day--he should have been a drooling mess and barely able to string two sentences together instead of making his usual pop cultural references and such. And really did they need to pour the whole tortured turns torturer on to make Hell seem bad? I always thought they threw on the extra layers of stupid so as to balance out Sam running around with a demon--basically saying that they both were doing bad things during their time apart. Just like the nooky, everyone gets some. 

[catrox14]

 

nd really did they need to pour the whole tortured turns torturer on to make Hell seem bad? I

 

I don't think it was solely for piling on the angst. It served the plot too. It was the act of torturing that broke the first seal. And it's torture that turns a soul into a demon after hundreds of years according to Ruby 1.0. My fanwank has been that since Dean was resurrected he was partially healed which is why he wasn't a drooling mess.

[DittyDotDot]

Are you saying that Cas "cured" his physiological trauma? Dean still had all the memories and the knowledge of Hell.  That's what should have made him a drooling mess. I can't imagine anyway for someone not be changed by that experience unless you have no memory of the experience.

 

And I in no way ever believed that John held out longer than Dean let alone more than twice as long. Just, no.

Edited July 25, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

Are you saying that Cas "cured" his physiological trauma? Dean still had all the memories and the knowledge of Hell.  That's what should have made him a drooling mess. I can't imagine anyway for someone not be changed by that experience unless you have no memory of the experience.

 

I'm saying that my fanwank is Dean remembers everything, but we all know 1) he is the king of repress, repress, repress 2) that the resurrection doesn't remove his memories but may have healed some parts of the brain that processes those traumatic memories.  Or think of it this way, Sam got a wall that protected him from his memories and Dean IMO essentially has a bit of a wall by virtue of angel intervention. 

 

I think Dean was changed by that experience.  But I don't think the show did it justice at all because they had to deal with Sam's issues. Bobby pretty much told Dean to stow it too.  I think Dean has a large capacity for living with a lot of shit so IMO couple that with resurrection and Dean's known coping mechanisms and that the show clearly had no intention of dealing with Dean's post Hell life and I can live with it. I shudder to actually think about what really probably happened to Dean :(. 

 

But don't get me wrong, I don't forgive the show for largely ignoring his post Hell life.

Edited July 25, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

But Sam's wall included him not remembering anything--that's why the wall worked--and it needed Death to implement it. Not sure Cas had the ability to do either.

 

I do tip my hat to you for finding a solution that works for you, I'm just not there yet. ;)

[catrox14]

I think the difference is that Sam had to be re-en-souled and that's why he needed the wall, because everything would have hit him at once. Dean's soul remained intact when he was resurrected so IMO that's why he still has his memories. It's not a perfect fanwank but it helps :)

[DittyDotDot]

I promised a Bizarro post—whether you wanted it or not—and I got sidetracked, with the new spoilers coming out it reminded me of my previous threat…ur…um…I mean, promise.  For those of you who haven’t been privy to my Bizarro ramblings over at TWoP, the basic premise is that I’ve found there’s quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that they have been redoing the series since Carver took over in S8, but with a few twists and flipping the main character’s storylines so it seems like it’s not a redux. Plus, they seem to be hitting the highlights and not dragging the story out quite as long. So, I kinda feet like S8 was a mix of S1/S2 and S9 was a kinda flipped S3-S5 in a way.

 

I wanted to start it off with the post I did last summer over at TWoP just to get us all on the same page, but it was rather lengthy and really you may not want to be bored by it…here’s an abbreviated version to give you the gist (You can’t imagine the amount of time I wasted digging around over at the Way Back Machine to find it…I do seem to rather love my Supernatural time-wasters!)

 

I’m doing a rewatch and just finished a slow progression through S1.  It’s made me rethink my assertion that S8 was in some ways a replay of S2--I mean I still believe it, but I think it was a bit too narrow--now I see a mix of S1 and S2.  But it's Bizarro Supernatural--you know, like Superman but with a twist.  Stay with me here...

 

S1: Pilot--Sam and Dean come together, begin search for Dad, Sam doesn't want to hunt, Dean wants to hunt and wants Sam to hunt, Jessica dies and Sam starts on revenge mission.  S8: We Need to Talk About Kevin: Sam and Dean come back together, search for Kevin, Sam doesn't want to hunt, Dean wants to hunt and wants Sam to hunt, start mission to close gates of Hell. Dean’s on the revenge mission and it’s Kevin’s girlfriend who dies.

 

S1: Assylum:  Angry ghost hunt, Sam gets possessed by anger tells Dean some shit and tries to kill Dean.  S8: Southern Comfort: Angry ghost hunt, Dean gets possessed with anger tells Sam some shit and tries to kill Sam.  And it’s Sam’s turn to side eye Dean’s “I didn’t mean it”…Sam’s just a bit more of a pissy pants about it. And, well, Garth.

S1: Scarecrow:  Dad sends boys on a hunt, Sam doesn't want to go, Dean does, they argue and separate only to come back together, Sam meets and befriends Meg, but later leaves her and chooses hunting. S8: Torn And Frayed:  Sam and Dean argue and separate, Cas puts them on the hunt and forces Sam to join, Sam has relations with Amelia, but ultimately leaves her and chooses hunting. At least Amelia wasn't a demon (I don’t think, anyway).

S1: Devil's Trap:  Sam and Dean rescue Dad, Dad is possessed by YED monologues and beats the crap out of Dean, Dean gets Dad to take control, Meg is trapped and exorcised. S2: Born Under A Bad Sign: Dean decides he is going to "save" Sam instead of kill him. S8: Goodbye Stranger:  Sam and Dean run into Cas who is manipulated by Naomi and beats the crap out of Dean, Dean gets Cas to take control, Meg dies. Dean is going to "carry" Sam. Cas takes the tablet and disappears, Crowely and Naomi apparently have had some relations—what?

S2: Everybody Loves A Clown: Sam and Dean meet Jo and Ellen and learn something about Dad, Sam decides he wants to hunt to honor Dad's memory. S8: As Time Goes By:  Sam and Dean meet Grandpa Henry and learn Dad was a legacy for a society of idiots who were wiped out on the same night. The audience learns John was a sad lonely child (again, what?). Sam likes the idea of being a Legacy and is more committed to hunting because of Henry.

 

S2: All Hell Breaks Loose II:  Dean sells his soul to save Sam, the hell gate is opened and demons set loose. S8: Sacrifice: Dean talks Sam out of sacrificing himself to close the hell gates; angels are cast out of Heaven.

 

There's more, but this is already way to long. Basically it's opposite day on Supernatural, what would it look like?

 

I think I’m going to try and make this a bit briefer by talking about who is the new who and such and the different character arcs this time. Let’s see how that works out for me.

 

Dean/Sam:
S3: Dean is grappling with his upcoming death. Not suicidal, but ready to accept that it was his time. Wanted his life to mean something in the end. Sam is trying to save Dean at all costs—“whatever it took” was Sam’s frame of mind.
S4: Dean is saved by angels that appears be a friends and allies. Confused and tormented by his time in Hell, but has hope for the first time in a long while and thought the angels might actually want something good for him. Becomes worried about what Sam is up to and tries to stop him. Turned out that the angel Dean trusted most was a bit misguided and not really working with him, but in the end Dean convinces him to fight for humanity. Sam is out for revenge after losing Dean and puts his trust in a very stupid place—Ruby--as a means to an end. Misguidedly tries to use his power for good and, for the most part, thinks he’s trying to help people. Becomes addicted to demon blood, which makes him a bit roided up and rather full of himself and has him lying and acting rather craptastic to Dean at times. Takes out a few heavy hitters, like Alistair, which has him believing that he can use this power to make things better and win a few fights, but in the end reaches too far by killing Lilith, which lets out Lucifer.
S5: Dean is trying to hold onto what little faith he had, not only in God, but also in himself and Sam. Is angry with Sam and doesn’t see how they can ever be what they were and doesn’t think he can ever truly trust Sam again. Realizes they need to try and stick together so as not to break the world anymore than they already did. Tries to have faith in Sam, wavers a bit, but ultimately supports Sam in his final mission. Sam is trying to make up for his past mistakes, but still wanting to stick it to the demons that have been screwing with him his whole life—still wants his revenge. Ultimately sacrifices himself to make a mends and sees all the things that he and Dean have done that he can be proud of before he dies. Comes back soulless and runs away after seeing Dean.

 

Bizarro S9:
Sam (the new Dean) is dying and ready to accept that death and is saved by an angel. For a time thinks things are looking up and thinks things might actually work out for once. But then that angel that saved him turns out to be working against them and finds out that Dean lied to him. Thinks he can’t trust Dean anymore, but works with Dean as a way to share the load, but doesn’t think they could ever be “brothers” again. Becomes worried about what Dean has gotten himself into and tries to stop him, but in the end decides to support Dean in his final mission. And that angel that betrayed them turns out just to be misguided and Sam convinces him to work for humanity--but more on that when we talk about the new Cas.
Dean (the new Sam) has a whatever-it-takes attitude about saving Sam and allows an angel to possess Sam and lies about it as a means to that end. When that angel turns out to be working his own angle and kills Kevin, it sends Dean on a spiral where he places his trust in a very stupid place—Crowley—and accepts the Mark Of Cain as a way to hopefully help balance out the bad in the world. Then, on a revenge mission, becomes roided up and full of himself as he gets addicted to the Mark and First Blade.  Takes out a few heavy hitters, like Abaddon, and thinks he can use this power for good, but taking out Marvatron has some serious consequences. In the end he sacrifices himself, but not before letting Sam know that he’s proud of them. Wakes up a demon and apparently will be running away from Sam.

 

Whew—not at all briefer…this next part should go faster…

 

Gadreel I’ve been seeing Gadreel as the new Cas. Yes, I know there still is a Cas, but I mean Gadreel played Castiel’s S4 role, IMO. Remember that Cas saved Dean from Hell, appeared to be an ally, then was found to misguidedly working a different angle, Dean convinces him to work for humanity and commits suicide at the end of S4 as a means to help Dean and humanity. Gadreel basically played the same part this season—Saves Sam, works his own angle but ultimately Sam convinces him to work with them for humanity’s sake and then commits suicide to help them. Now, Cas was resurrected in S5, so maybe we haven’t seen the last of that delightful Tahmoh Penikett person…now, wouldn’t that be totally awesome!? ;)

 

Cas has been playing a bit of Bobby’s old role as a go-between with the boys and he was even injured and suicidal because of that injury this season as Bobby was in S5. Ultimately though he chose to keep on fighting and regained some grace as did Bobby with his legs. He’s even in mortal peril as was Bobby at the start of S6, since Crowley still owned his soul. Of course, Cas did have a bit of his own arc with the angels-of-boredom this season--hey, maybe that was their attempt to actually go off book?

 

Kevin and his mama played the parts of Jo and Ellen to some degree—thanks @Demented Daisy for pointing this one out to me, I do like to give credit where credit’s due ;). Kevin was the innocent youngster with a tough talkin’ mama that didn’t want her son to be in the life, but went along in the end so she could try and keep him safe. And Kevin died as a means to push Sam and Dean into a different headspace—which is the point that I believe Dean lost all hope in S5 and Sam became even more resilient to find a way to end it once and for all was when Jo and Ellen died. The main difference is that Mrs. Tran didn’t sacrifice herself with her son, but I think she would have if given the chance.

 

Minor sidenote: In some ways Jodi plays the Bizarro part of Hendrickson, but friend and ally instead of adversary. And I think that Charlie is the Bizarro counterpoint to Bella—altruistic friend and ally rather than the out-for-her-ownself-only Bella of S3.

 

Wow, that was far more complicated and long than I thought it would be…sorry! What do you guys think...did I stretch too hard to find those parallels?

Edited July 26, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

So, Crowley is gonna be the new Ruby? :-)

 

I'm not disagreeing but your post makes me rather depressed. So, there is really nothing new in this show anymore. So, they are not that different after all given the right circumstances? If that is the intention to show for the last 3 seasons of this show, it makes me very depressed. I always found the most interesting is the different ways they deal with their lives.

 

If I understand correctly, S9Sam is S3Dean while S4Sam is S9Dean?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I was not trying to make you depressed @supposebly, I was just trying to have a little fun...I'm sorry!  I think there are some newish things (like Castiel's story with the angels of boredom) they just are reworking the main storylines, IMO. Not all is the same or it wouldn't be Bizarro! 

 

As to your question, I was thinking S9 Sam is S3-S5 Dean and vice versa with S9 Dean. They seemed to hit similar character beats for those seasons.  Dean's arc this season seemed to start at a similar place Sam was in S3 but quickly moved to S4 and ended on, what I think, is a similar note as Sam did in S5. Sam's part was a bit more tangential, but once I started to see the different places they were at, it just seemed to fall into place.

 

These are just observations, I'm sure though, one could find parallels in anything if I tried hard enough, so I'm not saying this is fact or anything. And, if it makes you feel better you should just forget that you read this. ;)

 

 

ETA: Apparently I forgot to include Crowley in my original post...yes, I do see him as the new Ruby. The main difference is that he's still alive and Ruby died after her manipulations were found out.  Oh, I may have just stumbled across Crowley's arc for this season. ;)

Edited July 26, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

So, Crowley is gonna be the new Ruby?

 

 

Yep.  Said so months ago.  And Abbadon was the new Lilith.  Killing her didn't have apocalyptic results, but they were pretty damned awful.  If you really want to stretch, all the things Dean did after he received the Mark could be paralleled to breaking the seals.  It wasn't one thing that started the Apocalypse/made Dean a demon, it was a progression of events.

[catrox14]

I enjoyed your post DittyDotDot.  And I can understand where you are seeing this. It's like Carver is Metatron  and MO Carver has had to engage in character assassination to "flip the scripts' to make it work. Both boys have acted out of character, Sam IMO more than Dean and of course the most egregious of this was Sam not looking for Dean. Yes, technically, Carver gave Sam an out with the stupid never before known or implemented rule of not looking for each other and  I could buy that Sam might have given up quickly and I'm getting on with life.  But not looking at all was awful. But Sam not looking for Kevin was ridiculous.  And for me, turning Dean into a demon is character assassination.  I have more thoughts on this but I have to run errands. I'll catch up later.

[mertensia]

I doubt Dean remembered everything at once after his resurrection and I can fanwank that the angels somehow softened the mental effects of his time in Hell without letting him forget.

[catrox14]

[mertensia]

Oh look at the sign! It's NFL training camp time!

[catrox14]

I was just rewatching First Born.  It was all fun and games with the Buddy Comedy....until it wasn't:(  Fuck you Crowley.

[DittyDotDot]

Moved from the Best/Worst thread...

 

As I'm narrowing in on the end of S2 with the re-watch, I started thinking that maybe we needed to do a season report card. Maybe this would be better suited to the All Seasons thread...let me know if you think it doesn't belong here. Not sure what all the categories should be, but thought I'd start off with this and you guys could add more if you want, plus I would love to see how you guys would rate these things, too. The first few are grades A-F and the following are on scales of 1-10.

 

Season 1...

Myth arc: B- The hunt for dad turned out to be null and void and a big waste of time, but it's what got them back on the road together, so not all bad. I still think the way Yellow Eyes wasn't hardly even in S1 is what makes him one of the best villains the show has ever managed to pull off.

Character: A+ Sam and Dean were very vibrant characters that seemed to jump off the page for me and they seemed to stay consistent and awesome throughout the first season.

Tone/atmosphere: A+ This season, more than any other IMO, strikes that balance of horror, creep, humor and emotion the best. It's no overly funny, but also not bogged down in it's own angst. Even the episodes I don't much care for feel like they belong in the series and without them the series wouldn't feel complete. It also feels like they accomplished what they set out to do--a new horror movie every week.

Pacing: B  This show always struggles with pacing, but S1 never has me feeling like they were just filling time till they could get back to the main myth episodes. Maybe it's just the first season factor and getting to know the characters and this universe takes time, though. I did get bored with the hunt for Dad, so was glad when they moved past that. The hunt for Yellow Eyes was better, but it was really only the last few episodes. Hey, show, maybe you could look back at this to see remember that dragging something out only makes people not care in the end.

Production: B+  The art department and their whacky will always get an A from me, but there was some really crappy green-screen stuff early-on and some of the monsters would have been better not seen.  It being a first season and that they seemed to learn from it, I'll give them some leeway, though. Directing wise and the visual sense of the show was probably at it's best here, although, S2 comes in a close second for me.

 

Badass Factor: 9  Scaling fences, breaking into things, driving recklessly, acting the outlaws that they were supposed to be...perfect. Fight scenes were awesome too, especially that one at the end of Skin.

Chick Flick factor: 2  As I said before, they struck a nearly perfect balance in S1--grounded it in a real emotional place, but also didn't wallow in it--which is a good thing!

Whacky Fun Factor: 9  Lots and lots of fun.

Monster Factor: 9  Quite a few interesting myths and legends and very creative twists to them to boot.

 

Final grade: A   They got the most important things right--character and world building--and entertained me rather nicely to boot. Plus, they were something new on the landscape and seemed to revel in that. So, overall, it's pretty great freshman season.

Edited August 3, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[fantique]

@DittyDotDot That is so funny, I finally caught up to Season 9 and I had the exact same thoughts of that feeling of reworked eralier seasons with the boys switiching places. I have long since given up on the idea of shows making truly new things past like season 5 or something so I don't mind. Besides I know Dean is not going to be half as mopey as Sam about going rogue so whatevs. I actually like a Demon Dean, just cause I want to see him not give 2 shits about things for a bit. And I like Crowley and Dean in the same scenes. I can't wait to see Crowley's "I created a monster" face.  I also agree with an earlier poster that I am tired with all the different Sams. Just having him be himself for a whole season would actually help me care more (at least in a semi-sustained way) about his character.

[Boopsahoy]

I enjoyed your post DittyDotDot.  And I can understand where you are seeing this. It's like Carver is Metatron  and MO Carver has had to engage in character assassination to "flip the scripts' to make it work. Both boys have acted out of character, Sam IMO more than Dean and of course the most egregious of this was Sam not looking for Dean. Yes, technically, Carver gave Sam an out with the stupid never before known or implemented rule of not looking for each other and  I could buy that Sam might have given up quickly and I'm getting on with life.  But not looking at all was awful. But Sam not looking for Kevin was ridiculous.  And for me, turning Dean into a demon is character assassination.  I have more thoughts on this but I have to run errands. I'll catch up later.

"And for me, turning Dean into a demon is character assassination"

 

i thought I was the only one that felt this way. 

[SueB]

Well I finally caught up with this thread (since early June!).  I'll sum up my perspective on the vast number of topics:

- In reality, I think Kripke didn't make Chuck God until he got to Swan Song. Whether or not he intended for Chuck to have always been God, IDK, but the previous episodes are a hard fit into that retcon.  So my theory.. Chuck is the Prophet Chuck and God whisked him away to happy land after Sam jumped into the pit. Then God took on the persona of Chuck as he started writing the "ending" (with the voiceover).  The proof he didn't start writing  until AFTER the episode was over is because he knew about the importance of the Impala. Dean had his Free Will to drive into that graveyard (really an important concept to God), thus it had to be AFTER that.

- Time is fluid (like Yoda said), so Dean really went into the future BUT since Dean left the path that 2014 Dean took (the one that stayed away from Sammy), Dean will not be encountering a 2009 version of himself in this series.  That made sense in my head.

- Whether or not the demon blood was required for Sam to develop his powers doesn't actually matter because he apparently believes it is required.  God detox'd him and he wasn't Ipecac'ing demons for all of S5 until he drank the blood in My Bloody Valentine.  And whammo, powers were back strong as ever.  So whether there's an actual physical connection or a mental requirement, it seems Sam needs it.

- I love Bobby even when he's an ass. I ascribe his ass-hole statements to ... he's Bobby and he screws up.  Glorious fanwank I know, sorry not sorry.

- Totally agree that Crowley set up Dean from the get-go.  Made a massive post about it back in the day on TWOP (in speculation land) but I DID expect Sammy to die, not Dean. 

 

ETA: Dean turning demon.  I screamed about Dean taking on the MoC at the start as VERY BAD.  Now, I'm rolling with it because .... I'm rolling with it.  I have unswerving faith that Dean, OUR DEAN, will come thru it somehow.  And he will exert some agency in the choice. 

Edited August 4, 2014 by SueB

[mertensia]

Yeah I have always thought that God took the form of Chuck or used him as a vessel to write that end bit myself.

[catrox14]

Oh wow, I never thought about Chuck being God's vessel. It seems to me prophets kind of don't get a choice in being a prophet but vessels theoretically have to give permission to being a meatsuit so did God get Chuck's consent to being his meatsuit or does being a prophet negate the permission requirement. And if God doesn't need Chuck's permission, then EEP!

[DittyDotDot]

Well, he is God, I doubt he needs anyone's permission to do anything. It's only angels that have to give permission, demons don't though.

 

I've often thought that Chuck was only God at the end too, the other episodes don't line up for me otherwise. I can't imagine what would have possessed God (Hee!) to want to have sexy times with Becky. Sorry, that one alone makes it impossible for me to believe that Chuck was always God. Not because I think Becky was so horrible or God would be so far out of Becky's league, but I just can't imagine God just hanging back and being Becky's second choice.

Edited August 4, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Well, he is God, I doubt he needs anyone's permission to do anything. It's only angels that have to give permission, demons don't though.

 

Since demons don't need permission does that make God a demon?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I wasn't implying that, but hey, depending on one's own religious leanings I guess he could be. ;)

 

I was just pointing out that not all possession needs permission, and quite frankly that whole angel possession-permission thing is pretty weak now anyway after the Angel-In-A-Sam debacle. But I still think that God himself doesn't need permission because, well, he's God and he made the damn rules so I doubt he made one to limit his abilities.

Edited August 4, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

And that is exactly why I don't want us to ever meet "actual" God. :)

Edited August 4, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

I never saw Chuck as God.  I just saw a meta moment with Krikpe at the end playing Chuck.

 

But then again, I don't believe the God, Heaven myths in this universe to begin with.  Which is why I think its such a problem at times.  It's almost like they are scared to death to have any good in this universe.  Good doesn't have to be "Touch by an Angel" although I enjoyed that show for what it was. 

 

I know that Gamble said things like is Chuck God...did we see God and laughed.  In my world God is still on vacation or running from Death.

[catrox14]

Oh man! Now I want Dean and Death to work together to hunt God

[7kstar]

Oh man! Now I want Dean and Death to work together to hunt God

Only if they did this would I want to see God on this show.    God should be very scared if Death and Dean ever teamed up.  I know wishful thinking.  But at least I'm not the only one that wants to see this.

[Demented Daisy]

Taking talk of God to the spec thread.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "spoilers" thread - no spoilers here:

For example, I felt that in Season 4 Sam`s pride got adressed as a character flaw. He went wrong with it, not everyone else in not bowing down to him. The journey of Season 5 on the other hand showed him as actually "the one and only hero" and everyone learned to bow down and accept their little helper roles.

 

Considering this is the  only time in the show where Sam got to even have a helpful role in a major win, I'm not sure how this makes him "the one and only hero." especially since without Dean being there, half the planet would've been blown up at the least. Just because Michael - not the most heroic of sources - told Dean that he was no longer part of the story, doesn't mean Dean wasn't part of the real story. Sure Dean wasn't part of Michael's story, but as was made a point later on, Dean and Sam changed the story (destiny) by making their own choices. By Dean doing the heroic thing and risking his life because he wouldn't give up on Sam when everyone else had, he made it possible for Lucifer to be defeated. If Dean hadn't done that, there would've been no win. Period. For me that showed that Dean was crucial. Dean helped kill Azazel (Sam had almost no part), Dean saved Sam from hell, Dean killed Dick Roman (saving the world; Sam wasn't even in the room), and Dean would have saved Castiel from Purgatory if not for Castiel being stubborn. Dean was hardly a "helper" in any of those things.

   

My conclusion? He didn`t have a character flaw in the first place (how can you be prideful if the sun really does shine out of your ass?) and everyone else`s, mainly Dean`s behaviour, had been the actual problem. Retroactively, THEY were wrong, not Sam who got the big hero story as a reward. And by "reward", I don`t mind not having personal suffering or anything, I mean the reward of the story. Not to mention "it wasn`t him, it was the demon-blood". That is white-wash to me.

 

The narrative of the story made it clear, in my opinion, that it wasn't the demon blood but Sam. The demon blood was a contributing factor, and in my opinion, definitely exacerbated Sam's pride. But Sam himself said it several times in season 5, including in "Sam Interrupted," that it was him (Sam) and it was always Sam who was blamed by outside sources for the apocalypse. He was hunted for it and even killed for it... and then blamed by God's messenger himself in "Dark Side of the Moon" for it. Castiel blamed him, ultimately Dean blamed him too (as evidenced by "Sacrifice" - and apparently losing his soul was Sam's fault too by extension of that.)

    I can`t recall an example of Dean having that over the course of the show.

 

I would say that Dean making the deal comes very close. Yes, Dean did break the first seal as a result of making the deal, but when Sam killed Lilith and released Lucifer, the blame for the apocalypse was pretty much shifted solely to Sam. Except for 1 small mention or two, after season 4, starting the apocalypse was only brought up as being Sam's fault. In my opinion, the show never adequately addressed the emotional effect that Dean's deal had on Sam or the role it might have played in Sam's downfall - it was all about Sam's "pride" and bad choices. Unlike in season 9 where the narrative made a point of showing how Sam contributed to the emotional trauma that lead to Dean's downfall. So for me, Dean making the deal and the effects of that were whitewashed in Dean's favor. He was never really called out by anyone after season 3 for it - unlike Sam starting the apocalypse which was still being brought up 4 seasons later.

[Aeryn13]

 

By Dean doing the heroic thing and risking his life because he wouldn't give up on Sam when everyone else had, he made it possible for Lucifer to be defeated.

 

He did nothing BUT show up. No action, not even physically helping one little bit, just kneeling on the ground and looking up in awe as Sam did everything. The character being there served the same purpose as a memory or a picture would have. Or an inanimate object. Which actually was shown to have an effect. I felt it was shown that Michael was right as rain when he made that statement. Adam was part of the story now. Dean was replacable and easily replaced.

 

In the end, I don`t think he needed to be in the episode. And as it was the crucial episode, the one that ended a five year arc, that is a sad statement for a supposed main character.

 

There hasn`t been an episode that important again and likely never will because I hope to God this show won`t last another five years. The Finales that followed didn`t close out a multi-year important arc. So they were all lower tier. The Season 2 Finale was lower tier. Every win before and after was presented as lower tier.

 

And if Dean can not get his very own 5.22, he can never close that gap. Ever.  They had a small window of opportunity with the trials but again they blew it and gave that to Sam, degrading Dean to the most useless kitchen boy and nanny. He didn`t need to be in those episodes 8.14 till 8.23 either. So, I think all chances came and went. 

Edited August 9, 2014 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

The character being there served the same purpose as a memory or a picture would have.

In the end, I don`t think he [Dean] needed to be in the episode.

 

For me, the point was that Dean was there, physically, now, supporting Sam, not just as a memory. If Dean hadn't been there, it would have actually been helpful to Lucifer in my opinion - another thing for Lucifer to use mentally against Sam - "see, even after all you've been through, your brother has abandoned you, too" (because Lucifer was all about himself.) "In the end, he thinks you're a screw up/monster/whatever insult would work. I'm the only one who understands you now. No one else cares about you. I'm all you have, Sam." And for me this general idea was enforced by "The End" where because Dean stayed away and wasn't there for Sam, the apocalypse did happen in that case - that Sam couldn't do it on his own and in fact failed.

 

The whole point for me wasn't that Dean had loved Sam in the past - which is what the memories represented - it was that Dean still loved Sam now in spite of all the mistakes Sam had made and even though Sam was presently host to the devil himself... and that in contrast Michael didn't forgive/support/love Lucifer enough to stand with him... And that therefor the evidence of this - represented by Dean right there, near death still professing his support and love for Sam - while his brother intended to kill him was a huge blow to Lucifer's ego, since he (Lucifer) was the one in control at that point. That was the difference: Dean - there for Sam, forgiving him and loving him just as Dean always had even though Sam had screwed up and was now a "monster". Michael - Still insisting on following "Dad's plan" and killing Lucifer - i.e. not forgiving him, not supporting him. And that blow to Lucifer's pride and ego was what weakened him. From what I saw, it has less to do with Sam himself than what Sam and Dean represented together that Lucifer would never have with his brother.

 

So for me, it was critical that Dean be there in "Swan Song". Dean's love and support is what kept the future from becoming the one we saw in "The End," it's what kept the "story" from being the one that Michael wanted, it's what helped to defeat Lucifer by showing Lucifer what he would never have and bruising his ego so badly. Without that blow, in my opinion, Sam would never have been able to take over... just as Sam wasn't able to do for years in "The End."

 

And that's why, for me, it was critical Dean be there in "Swan Song," and it was one of the points of showing what would have happened if things had been different in "The End."

 

The Season 2 Finale was lower tier.

 

If the show ended in season 2, it would have been the main finale, and by your description, Sam wouldn't have mattered much to the story at that point.

 

They had a small window of opportunity with the trials but again they blew it and gave that to Sam, degrading Dean to the most useless kitchen boy and nanny.

 

That wasn't a multi-year arc. It wasn't even a single year arc. And Sam failed - again. And somehow Dean being a supportive, caring brother is more degrading to his character than having Sam first not looking for Dean, abandoning Kevin, declaring why was it his job to save people, he had farmer's markets to go to, sleeping with a married woman, trying to get Dean's friend killed, and then not completing the trials? And let's not forget that before Dean was a completely supportive brother to Sam despite all Sam had done to him, he fought his way through purgatory to save Castiel, remained loyal to his friend Benny and saved him from purgatory - a place he'd gotten sent to because he happened to save the world the season before (where Sam wasn't even in the room.)

 

Every win before and after was presented as lower tier.

 

Saving the day is saving the day in my opinion. And I don't see saving the world after a 5 year arc * as that much different than saving it after a 2 year arc, or a one year arc (season 7... also season 6, if you count the killing of Eve). It's still saving the world. And Dean has done it multiple times. Even if I did consider Dean not critical in "Swan Song" - which I did consider him critical - Sam can never catch up to the times Dean has saved the world. For me the one big "win" Sam had is balanced out by Dean's multiple world saving stints.

 

Dean has also sacrificed for and saved Sam multiple times, including from hell. Except for one small incidence in season 1, Sam has never been allowed to save Dean from anything major. He failed to kill Azazel - resulting in Dean's imminent death. He failed to save Dean from going to hell. He failed to get him out of hell. He failed to get Dean out of purgatory. And he failed to keep Dean from becoming a demon.

 

Sam has failed at almost everything. If Dean does get a "Swan Song" moment - and I could almost bet that in Dean's, Sam wouldn't even be in the vicinity, based on the past of this show ** - this would pretty much put Dean way ahead in every category there is in this show as "Swan Song" is pretty much all Sam has in the "win" column at this point. He's failed at almost everything else, often spectacularly.

 

And if Dean can not get his very own 5.22, he can never close that gap.

 

And I ask what gap? "Swan Song" is basically all Sam has, in my opinion, and mostly what he did was fall in a hole (after Lucifer gave up) and take Michael with him. Dean has multiple savings of the world and multiple savings of Sam. I really don't see Dean in any way on the short end of that stick.

 

* I don't actually consider "Swan Song" as an end to a 5 year arc per se. The Azazel arc was for me more separate from or a prequel to the Lucifer arc since the part that Azazel played in that arc was over once Dean made the deal... then it became all about the angels' and Lucifers' plan. And Azazel's big plan to maraud the world with his demon army (and the psychic kids arc) was thwarted at the two year mark. So for me it was more a 2 year arc and a 3 year arc within a 5 year chapter.

 

** Based on "All Hell Breaks Loose, pt 2", "Meet the New Boss", and "Survival of the Fittest." In "Mommie Dearest" Sam was present, but still had little to no part in the win.

[SueB]

I'm 100% convinced Dean and Sam jointly ended the Apocalypse with "the power of love" (that Dean mocked in Point of No Return). 

[oliverwendell]

Me, too.  And I endorse everything Awesome said above about Dean's importance to that final outcome.  He was absolutely indispensible, and it wasn't the car, or a toy soldier, or anything else that turned the trick.  It was Dean.

 

But here's the critical point, to me.  Sam paid a catastrophically higher price for saving the world.  He willingingly consigned himself to the Pit, ostensibly for all eternity.  Dean got up off the field of battle and walked into a woman's arms.  Sure, he was sad and missed his brother, but compared to an eternity of torture?  Not comparable. 

 

To put it another way:  Dean expected to and was willing to die for his brother.  Sam expected to and was willing to spend eternity in a cage in hell with Lucifer to save all of humanity.  Most people, looking at the two, would consider Sam's to be the greater (and nobler) sacrifice.  I think that's why most people rank Sam's actions several rungs higher up on the hero ladder than Dean's, in Swan Song.

Edited August 10, 2014 by fourteenwords

[7kstar]

@ fourteenwords

 

To put it another way:  Dean expected to and was willing to die for his brother.  Sam expected to and was willing to spend eternity in a cage in hell with Lucifer to save all of humanity.  Most people, looking at the two, would consider Sam's to be the greater (and nobler) sacrifice.  I think that's why most people rank Sam's actions several rungs higher up on the hero ladder than Dean's, in Swan Song.

This is the can of worms for too many Dean fans...Sam was the special one for all 5 seasons and Dean gets a piece of the action when he gets pulled out of hell and supposedly he is part of the plan to save the world and then oops we don't need you.

 

Then add into the mix, Sam's get's the worst hell experience and thus we whitewash everything bad he's done.  Dean's time in hell get's lost because he didn't have it as bad as Sam. 

 

My problem with the show is I've never bought the theory that Sam's hell was sooooooooooo much worse.  Bad is bad.  What is bad for someone is just plain bad, there really isn't your pain is worse than mine because we just don't react to the same things, PERIOD.  What may be almost impossible for one to get over is a picnic for another. 

 

So for me, Dean is the reason that Sam can take over Lucifer for a split moment.  I just hate how the so called solution.  It is also why I didn't care about Sam's time in hell. 

 

Both brothers have ownership in the problem, one breaks the first seal and the other one breaks the last seal...Hello it can't have gotten started if Dean hadn't been broken in hell.  Before Season 5, I didn't really care which brother had the worst storyline, because both had important parts.  But after season 5, I was sick of Sam's excuses of why he didn't really mean what he said or it wasn't really his fault.

 

I blame the writing.  Dark of the Moon had growth for Sam and it looked like he could finally see his brother's point of view and then poof we forget it all and start all over.  I'm sick of let's start over.

 

Both brothers have said something bad and done something bad to each other.  Love is the reason they have survived the terrible things or they would have ended it a long time ago.  Both brothers are important and it is time the show ends this seesaw back and forth.  

 

I can only speak for me but I can say that season 5 is the beginning of they gave Dean's storyline away again.  I didn't feel that way until the end of season 5.  I kept hoping I would be rewarded for continuing with the brothers united and fighting the fight together, which is how I wish oh how I wish they had done that in Season 5. 

 

the big bad in season 7 was a big fail for me.  Honestly I just didn't care and I didn't care about poor limp Sam.  I also didn't like Dean as the drunk but I continued on because a few shows would be enjoyable and so I would try to watch.  9 pulled me back in but I'm still leery of the  shows direction.  I hope I'll enjoy this next season more.

 

Stopping because I think I don't know what on earth I just said, so if it made you upset, remember it's just my opinion, we do not have to agree.  :)

Edited August 10, 2014 by 7kstar

[AwesomO4000]

@7kstar: Honestly I just didn't care and I didn't care about poor limp Sam.

 

This is a good example of how this show can be interpreted different ways by different people. I didn't think season 7 Sam was limp. Yes, he had mental issues, but he accepted them and found a way to function - and function well - in spite of them. His hallucinations were a coping mechanism that worked well for him for a while. Despite his hallucinations, Sam was still able to tell that something was wrong with Dean on more than one occasion, so he was still observant enough to be able to do that and to go on hunts and solve cases. Sam did finally fall apart, but that was to be expected after what he went through. But before he did, I thought he was a rather strong character in season 7, and he was more in tune with Dean and very concerned about Dean's well-being. A big improvement over - and I would even say actually stronger in many ways - than say season 4 Sam.

 

@fourteenwords: But here's the critical point, to me.  Sam paid a catastrophically higher price for saving the world.  He willingingly consigned himself to the Pit, ostensibly for all eternity.  Dean got up off the field of battle and walked into a woman's arms.  Sure, he was sad and missed his brother, but compared to an eternity of torture?  Not comparable.

 

To put it another way:  Dean expected to and was willing to die for his brother.  Sam expected to and was willing to spend eternity in a cage in hell with Lucifer to save all of humanity.  Most people, looking at the two, would consider Sam's to be the greater (and nobler) sacrifice.  I think that's why most people rank Sam's actions several rungs higher up on the hero ladder than Dean's, in Swan Song.

But Dean had already been to hell when he went for Sam. He'd already paid that price. And it was clear to me that if Dean could, he would have taken Sam's place. But I personally didn't want that for Dean again. And if they'd gone into the cage together, I think that it actually would've made it that much worse for both of them having to watch each other suffer.

 

Dean may have broken the first seal, but Sam actually set Lucifer free, so I thought that it was right that Sam put him back in. And I agree with @7kstar that I don't believe that Sam's hell was so much worse either (see below).

 

And for me, in many ways, it made sense. Dean sacrificing Sam was huge for Dean - whether most people look at it that way or not. In some ways it might have been harder than if Dean had jumped in the cage himself. For Dean not saving Sam was likely just as difficult as it would have been not saving everybody, because Dean has often been about the individual fights, the small fights, and he is willing to die for those. "Jus in Bello" for example. He was adamant that they weren't sacrificing Nancy to save the rest, whereas Sam considered that option. In "It's the Great Pumpkin..." Dean insisted that the town would not be smited - and vowed the angels would have to smite him right along with it - even if the smiting would've protected a seal. There have been a few exceptions - such as when Dean was going to say yes to Michael, but for the most part Dean has been the "small fight" champion for the series. In Dean's mind, being willing to sacrifice for one person is just as valid as sacrificing for the whole world... and I don't see anything wrong with that point of view. Dean was already willing to spend an eternity in hell to make up for not saving Sam from being killed when he made his deal. In some ways, that might be considered more noble even than saving the planet, because for Dean even one person is worth the sacrifice. Even though in general, I tend to be more of a big picture (i.e. like Sam) person, I don't see Dean's sacrificing to save even one as any less noble a way to look at things. It's just different - and entirely Dean.

 

Whereas for me, Sam is more willing to go with the bigger picture. It's one of the reasons Sam's "I lied" at the end of last season really pissed me off. I thought Sam saying he wouldn't save Dean under the conditions Dean used in the Gadreel situation was very consistent with Sam's thinking, and it pissed me off that they had Sam change his mind.

 

@7kstar: I kept hoping I would be rewarded for continuing with the brothers united and fighting the fight together, which is how I wish oh how I wish they had done that in Season 5.

 

That's what I saw in season 5 since for me Sam and Dean defeated Lucifer together. And as I said above, I feel very strongly that I did not want Dean to go to hell - via the cage - again. It would've wrecked them both even more, and as you said: as it was, I don't believe Sam's hell was worse - but if Dean was with him too - worse for both of them. I believe myself that Dean's hell was worse, because the intent was to break him via torture. So it was endless torture. We got a taste of Sam's cage experience via his hallucinations - it was likely mostly Lucifer amusing himself between fights with Michael more than anything else, but if Dean had been there, much of the amusement would've likely been torturing one brother in front of the other... no hope for either. And no, I wouldn't have liked that conclusion at all.

 

@7kstar: But after season 5, I was sick of Sam's excuses of why he didn't really mean what he said or it wasn't really his fault.

 

I blame the writing.  Dark of the Moon had growth for Sam and it looked like he could finally see his brother's point of view and then poof we forget it all and start all over.  I'm sick of let's start over.

 

If you mean season 8, I agree. I hated that reset with a passion. I thought that Sam kept his "Dark Side of the Moon" growth well all the way through season 7, though, and even added some more growth in season 7.

 

If you are meaning that Sam should have gone along with Dean's Michael plan... I entirely disagree. Dean's Michael plan was desperation on Dean's part, a total 180 degree switch from Dean's original plan (that Sam  - and Castiel had been supporting Dean on from the beginning), and was a "plan" that Dean decided on single-handedly after lying to Sam and ditching the rest of his "team." It also meant that likely millions of people - at the least - would be killed. Despite that Sam still had faith in Dean in "Point of No Return" - where I thought San also showed growth - and was willing to work with Dean on whatever their plan was going to be from then on. It was actually Gabriel who started the ball rolling on the Sam-jumps-in-the-cage plan, because how else were they going to get Lucifer in the cage? If Gabriel hadn't gotten killed by Lucifer, I have no doubt that the plan would've been different.

 

But I'm not sure what you meant by "and then poof, we forget it all and start over" so I'm just guessing and I apologize if I interpreted  you incorrectly.

[mertensia]

A major disconnect is not in how the writers treat them, so to speak, but how other characters do. We can call it the Missouri Efffect after an early exemplar, Missouri Moseley: Sam gets all the sympathy. Missouri coos all over poor Sam and laughs at Dean, whom she met back in the day but apparently his being traumatized is trivial. Bobby is all "we've been hard on Sam his whole life" but doesn't acknowledge that people-especially John- were equally hard on Dean. If anyone is going to catch flack from a non-Winchester hunter odds are it will be Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

A major disconnect is not in how the writers treat them, so to speak, but how other characters do. We can call it the Missouri Efffect after an early exemplar, Missouri Moseley: Sam gets all the sympathy. Missouri coos all over poor Sam and laughs at Dean, whom she met back in the day but apparently his being traumatized is trivial. Bobby is all "we've been hard on Sam his whole life" but doesn't acknowledge that people-especially John- were equally hard on Dean. If anyone is going to catch flack from a non-Winchester hunter odds are it will be Dean.

 

Those episodes for me though are balanced by the episodes where other characters criticize Sam - War, Joshua, Castiel, Pamela, Chuck, other hunters - who I never remember giving Dean any flack, except just because he happened to accidentally be there with Sam. Hunters tried to kill Sam on multiple occasions - Gordon: twice, the two hunters Gordon sent after Sam and who decided on their own he should be killed, the hunters in "Free to Be...", Walt and Roy who did kill Sam and only killed Dean because he recognized them - Roy even admitted that they had no beef with Dean, only Sam. And Walt mentioned that other hunters were hunting Sam as well. And many of those hunters told Sam how crappy he was as they tried to kill him. There was no sympathy there at all.

 

Many of the other characters who praise or give sympathy to Sam are generally of either questionable morality or sanity. Ruby, Lucifer, Famine, and Becky. Lucky Sam.

 

And it's the same for Dean from what I've seen: those who say good things and those who don't. Dean does in general get less sympathy, but it is still there (Ellen is a good example). Dean tends to wear his heart less on his sleeve though, and especially in season 1, Sam got sympathy because of his situation with Jessica. Dean typically gets less criticism as well, though, so it evens out. (For me demons don't count).

Edited August 10, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean sacrificing Sam was huge for Dean - whether most people look at it that way or not.

 

I don`t really care how a character looks at it because for them sacrificing their favourite jacket might be hard for all I know. But I as an outsider look at cold, hard numbers: the more people you save, the higher you rank. Ergo, saving the entirety of mankind is unbeatable. Saving one life pales very much in comparism.

 

If they had presented the Leviathan threat better and made the Season 7 Finale bigger - instead of "as lame as possible" - and gave Dean more of a flashy Chosen One role there in the conclusion, then maybe, the two would be comparable a bit. Dean, too, would have gotten the hero mark of saving the world by his lonesome. But for everything they pimped with the Michael vs. Lucifer apocalypse, they did not do it with Dick Roman. They equally did not do it with Azazel and the demons breaking out. And Eve? Forgotten one episode after her defeat so that`s by far the least comparable to 5.22. Abaddon, too, was wasted.

 

So for me there is still the gap the width of the Grand Canyon. And very much not in Dean`s favour.

 

 

And somehow Dean being a supportive, caring brother is more degrading to his character than having Sam first not looking for Dean, abandoning Kevin, declaring why was it his job to save people, he had farmer's markets to go to, sleeping with a married woman, trying to get Dean's friend killed, and then not completing the trials?

 

With the way it was presented on the show? A resounding yes. It was second-hand embarassment even having to watch Dean`s character in the second half of Season 8 for how completely unimportant he was. 

 

 

For me, the point was that Dean was there, physically, now, supporting Sam, not just as a memory.

 

Well, not for me. And not for many people whose thoughts on the Finale I`ve read. And the least I would have expected of an episode that concluded the five year arc of the show was to make it so it was crystal clear that both supposed main characters were important. That noone could doubt so.

 

When Dean killed Azazel, John helped in a crucial way. Even if I hated the character of John with a burning of a thousand suns (and I don`t), I could not claim that he didn`t play an absolutely physically important in the action. The Season Finale left it very open to interpretation in how far (or little) Dean mattered. What they put outright in the text and in the action was that he didn`t matter very much. Now maybe, he kinda, possibly, could have mattered in a metaphorical way, if you squint. But that`s way too little for me.    

Edited August 10, 2014 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

I always looked at the two hell experiences as different.  Dean was in GenPop (as in a prison General Population) and the CO of the guards made him his special project while he also suffered at anyone's hands.  Sam was in isolation w/ a raging psychopath and no external intervention.  For ME (as in if I was in there), better the Devil you know (literally) than a thousand different new creative sadists.  JMO YMMV.

 

And I refuse to get in any Sam vs Dean debates. I think they are both equal and am not interested in rechewing that gristle for the umpteenth time.  So...I'm going to agree to disagree with anyone who thinks one is favored over the other. I think both stories are fascinating and as a viewer I may find I connect more at certain times with one story vs another but it all ends up about the same in the end. 

[oliverwendell]

Well said, SueB.  Although I will add that the particular Sam-v-Dean-Swan-Song debate that I've read here is quite possibly the most civilized and reasoned one I've seen in years.  I have always been one who can see both sides of the argument.  I've sympathized with those who think Dean got shunted aside so that Sam could be the Big Damn Hero in 5x22, but as a writer I can see why the five-year-arc was set up that way.  The big sacrifice needed to be Sam's because he so clearly needed redemption for his part in setting up the Apocalypse. 

 

What I've never understood, though, is how some folks think Dean was completely irrelevant to the outcome in 5x22.  Thank you, Awesome, for explain so clearly why Dean was not just important but vital and how his showing up at the party was so in keeping with his character:  brave, selfless, and devoted to his brother.

[7kstar]

Well said, SueB.  Although I will add that the particular Sam-v-Dean-Swan-Song debate that I've read here is quite possibly the most civilized and reasoned one I've seen in years.  I have always been one who can see both sides of the argument.  I've sympathized with those who think Dean got shunted aside so that Sam could be the Big Damn Hero in 5x22, but as a writer I can see why the five-year-arc was set up that way.  The big sacrifice needed to be Sam's because he so clearly needed redemption for his part in setting up the Apocalypse. 

 

What I've never understood, though, is how some folks think Dean was completely irrelevant to the outcome in 5x22.  Thank you, Awesome, for explain so clearly why Dean was not just important but vital and how his showing up at the party was so in keeping with his character:  brave, selfless, and devoted to his brother.

I think the frustration comes from Dean having a myth part and then it suddenly means nothing and I think adds fuel to the fire so to speak.  Teaching debate and acting requires that you look at both sides, so I do see Dean being there as important.  It just isn't satisfying for me. 

 

But I respect people opinions and as long as people are respectful, I don't mind revisiting it again.  Someone might come up with an interpretation that I can see it in a new way.  That's why I discuss things.  Who knows I might even like season 7 a bit more than I once did and that is because of the discussions that have been shared that allowed me to see it differently and time heals all wounds anyway.

 

However, I think Dean says it best at the end of Season 9 - "I'm proud of us"  Both brothers have been shattered and in someways beyond repair but their love for each other helps them to rebuild and try again.  I think this is the concept that pulls so many people in.

 

Being safe in-case someone thinks this is a spoiler, I also wonder if Jared's changing the line "I lied" created some issues that weren't planned.  It's a rumor I can't confirm. I know Dean had a longer speech than "I'm proud of us" but I don't know what the original lines were. Jensen talked about how he got it approved for him to shorten a long speech.

 

I also am very aware that you can mean something when you say it and really think it is how you feel and at that moment it is the truth.  But then a new moment shows up and it changes.  That is how I look at Sam's, "I lied."  I don't care which brother had the best or worst storyline, because what's been written is done. 

 

I do think one thing Jared said applies, "The fans forgive us" and I can as long as they improve on past issues.  It's why I'm still sticking with the show.

[Aeryn13]

 

What I've never understood, though, is how some folks think Dean was completely irrelevant to the outcome in 5x22.  Thank you, Awesome, for explain so clearly why Dean was not just important but vital and how his showing up at the party was so in keeping with his character:  brave, selfless, and devoted to his brother.

 

I am confident that I could rewrite the episode as was with minimal changes so as to still have the same outcome but have Dean not in it at all. That`s why I think he was irrelevant. Of course I have an ungodly hate for the "yellow crayon - love saves the day" shtick in the first place, IMO it`s what you do when for some reason a character has to save the day who has no skills or destiny or importance otherwise. So all they can is make a speech and inexplicably the villain caves.

 

But the way you describe Dean, I guess that is my biggest problem with how it defines him. He has always been my fave character but the reason was never his relationship with Sam or how devoted he was to him, how much he revolved around him. Increasingly, I`ve tried to ignore that part to keep liking the character. I liked Dean for other reasons. 

 

And I do admit to being hypocritical enough in not having a problem with a character completely revolving around another when that other is my favourite. Merlin in the aptly named BBC show in the end lived and breathed for Arthur. I loved it. Why? Because Arthur was my favourite. Yet I hate it here because Dean is mine and not Sam. So I can`t enjoy that construct. 

 

I was on the verge of giving up the show in Season 3 because Sam was the supernatural storyline, point blank. Then they had the guts to send Dean to hell and it looked like he had gotten his own stake in it. Two years they somewhat spent on it. Then bam, it all meant nothing. I never needed to be there in the first place. Just a big fat joke at viewer`s expense.

 

Not to mention seeing as I felt the message was that Dean was at fault for his behaviour in Season 4 and thus Sam releasing Lucifer was really more Dean`s fault for not being supportive or kow-tow-y enough, then I figured that HE should get the redemption, too. At least equally. But instead he got the blame but none of the redemptive glory.

 

Even as late as the Season 9 Finale they have Death of all people come in and congratulate Sam on his awesomeness. Just like Head!Bobby got a dig in on how unimportant little Dean wasn`t even good enough to help during the trials. Just like Crowley got in his own dig in the Season 8 Finale on how Dean was completely unimportant. Then he was pawned off to Cas while Cas had a bit of downtime with HIS supposed trials. To me, these are what is to stay with the viewers because it is there in the dialogue.

 

Till Dean took the Mark last year, that is how Mytharc episodes went by for a lot of it, Dean was there during the downtime between important stuff. He had to be awkwardly put into it around the crucial action. Probably with emo or failure. After the MOC, I did several double takes because Dean was suddenly in the thick of things during the myth stuff. 

[AwesomO4000]

I also am very aware that you can mean something when you say it and really think it is how you feel and at that moment it is the truth.  But then a new moment shows up and it changes.  That is how I look at Sam's, "I lied."

It's not really the "I lied" that was the problem for me.. and I actually would have agreed with Jared to change the line to that if it was some drawn out speechifying instead, because ugh... It was actually having Sam change his mind and not stick with what I thought were Sam principals. It also nullified all his bitchiness from earlier in the season and kinda made him a hypocrite. "I didn't like how you took away my choices and lied to me, but on reflection, yeah I guess I would do the same thing to you, too." (Even though Sam has entirely respected similar choices from Dean in the past - example: "Croatoan.") Yeah, no. Hated it.

[catrox14]

 

I think the frustration comes from Dean having a myth part and then it suddenly means nothing and I think adds fuel to the fire so to speak.  Teaching debate and acting requires that you look at both sides, so I do see Dean being there as important.  It just isn't satisfying for me.

 

It bothered me immensely for a few reasons. Strap in for a ride on the Bittercake Express. 

 

They totally neutered Dean's arc that they spent nearly 2 entire seasons building. They never spent anytime really examining how awful Dean's hell experience was, in favor of Sam's addiction to demon blood and vengeance. Yet we find out that Dean broke in hell after 30 years of torture and tortured others but that he is the Righteous Man who MUST fix what he broke because he was the Righteous Man, which is pretty big fucking deal. Sadly, he couldn't stop Sam from breaking the final seal but that failure didn't absolve him of Righteous Man status IMO.

 

They went even further and made him a godsdammed Chosen Vessel that is so powerful that the dick angels will do anything to make him "consent" and they spend 16 episodes building up that there is going to be a battle between Lucifer and Michael via Sam and Dean only to piss it away by bringing back Adam and taking Dean out of the actual action and made him just sit there letting Sam beat the shit out of him. But then Dean is a bit of a masochist when it comes to Sam.  Lucifer beating the living shit out of Dean didn't even have to happen. The Impala could have driven herself there, and Sam could have been beating the crap out of Adam against the stupid car and he would have seen the toy soldiers. Chuck as much said the Impala was more important than Dean in the narration. At least that's my opinion.

 

But you know okay fine, taking the stance that Dean's utter devotion to Sam is what saved the day ( I don't think it was) whilst ripping Dean's arc out from under him, they could at least have had Dean and Cas hunt God together along with finding a way to get Sam out of Hell to start s6 and make it awesome but noooooo....

 

Like Kripke said in that funny Comic Con moment  when he went online to read the reaction that he just knew would be overwhelmingly positive "I waited 5 years for this shit? Fuck you Kripke" (disclaimer, I mainlined the show in the past few months so for me it was "I waited 3 months for this shit? Fuck you Kripke".

 

The bitter runs deep for me.  I'm surprised I've lasted this long with how much I hated Swan Song LOL.   As always, I love these discussions but I will never be over that.  :)

Edited August 10, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

It bothered me immensely for a few reasons. Strap in for a ride on the Bittercake Express. 

 

They totally neutered Dean's arc that they spent nearly 2 entire seasons building. They never spent anytime really examining how awful Dean's hell experience was, in favor of Sam's addiction to demon blood and vengeance. Yet we find out that Dean broke in hell after 30 years of torture and tortured others but that he is the Righteous Man who MUST fix what he broke because he was the Righteous Man, which is pretty big fucking deal. Sadly, he couldn't stop Sam from breaking the final seal but that failure didn't absolve him of Righteous Man status IMO.

 

They went even further and made him a godsdammed Chosen Vessel that is so powerful that the dick angels will do anything to make him "consent" and they spend 16 episodes building up that there is going to be a battle between Lucifer and Michael via Sam and Dean only to piss it away by bringing back Adam and taking Dean out of the actual action and made him just sit there letting Sam beat the shit out of him. But then Dean is a bit of a masochist when it comes to Sam.  Lucifer beating the living shit out of Dean didn't even have to happen. The Impala could have driven herself there, and Sam could have been beating the crap out of Adam against the stupid car and he would have seen the toy soldiers. Chuck as much said the Impala was more important than Dean in the narration. At least that's my opinion.

 

But you know okay fine, taking the stance that Dean's utter devotion to Sam is what saved the day ( I don't think it was) whilst ripping Dean's arc out from under him, they could at least have had Dean and Cas hunt God together along with finding a way to get Sam out of Hell to start s6 and make it awesome but noooooo....

 

Like Kripke said in that funny Comic Con moment  when he went online to read the reaction that he just knew would be overwhelmingly positive "I waited 5 years for this shit? Fuck you Kripke" (disclaimer, I mainlined the show in the past few months so for me it was "I waited 3 months for this shit? Fuck you Kripke".

 

The bitter runs deep for me.  I'm surprised I've lasted this long with how much I hated Swan Song LOL.   As always, I love these discussions but I will never be over that.  :)

Strap in for a ride on the Bittercake Express.  How I love that!  :)

 

I think Krikpe was so surprised to find out how many hated it.  Because it seems to me it really juiced up the fire splitting the fans in half. You have stated it in a very eloquent way and I really agree with this.  I do try to fanwink it that it was Dean being there plus the car but I have to work soooo hard. 

 

I also don't really buy that Sam going into the cage was the better choice.  There wasn't this huge fight of killing of thousands and if Dean had gone to Michael and tried to take control what would have been the end result.  Everyone says it would end with sooooooo many deaths but would it really?  I'm not so sure I buy that.  So it sort of nulls Sam's great sacrifice.  JMV.

[AwesomO4000]

@7kstar - There wasn't this huge fight of killing of thousands and if Dean had gone to Michael and tried to take control what would have been the end result.

In my opinion, Dean would've been squashed like a bug. And I'm not saying that because I think Dean is weaker or anything like that. I am saying that, because this is the way the characters were set up.. Michael was set up here to be a one track minded dick who thought nothing of killing people just because he wanted to talk to Zachariah ("Point of No Return") and sending Zachariah after Adam and letting Zachariah lie to him. Michael was not hands on. Dean was just a means to an end, he already knew what he wanted to do, he was doing it... the end. Micahel would've stuffed Dean down deep or put him in some hallucination where he wouldn't know what was going on. Not even Lucifer - the brother he supposedly "loved" - could convince Michael to change his mind. For me it would've stretched credulity if Michael would've listened to anything Dean said or given Dean any kind of chance to fight back.

 

Lucifer, on the other hand, was different and therefor more vulnerable, in my opinion. From the beginning, he was all about the "seduction."  Lucifer wants his vessel to like him, to understand him, to think he cares and understands them right back. It's all to feed his need for "see I'm the better one. I was right all along." He pulled the same thing with Nick as he tried with Sam. And it was shown right away that if Lucifer wanted, Sam didn't have a chance - he squashed Sam right away. But Lucifer, being who he was, still wanted Sam to be his supporter, to understand him and think he (Lucifer) was great and right. So it was emphasized that Lucifer let Sam be on the surface for that purpose. "Sam. Come on. I can feel you scratching away in there. Look... I'll take the gag off, okay? You got me all wrong, kiddo. I'm not the bad guy here." Then there was the whole "seduction" scene that came after "I want you to be happy, Sam." With the "gifts" and kind words and promises not to hurt Dean and bring back Sam's family. Lucifer's a bastard. He wants to abuse and at the same time have the victim enjoy it and love him for it. And he was the same with his punishments. "Oh, he's in here, all right. And he's gonna feel the snap of your bones." That was saying to me that Lucifer kept Sam very much on the surface during his beating of Dean, to make sure Sam experienced it too. That coupled with Lucifer's arrogance, and Dean's support, I think are what made it possible for Sam to take over.

 

And I always thought that it would be the actual destruction of Lucifer that would cause the loss of life and area (i.e. big badda boom), but I may have interpreted that wrong.

 

@catrox14 - They totally neutered Dean's arc that they spent nearly 2 entire seasons building.

 

I can see this point, and your frustration, but for me it's something the show had done before, so it really didn't take me by surprise. They built up the Yellow Eyed demon messing with Sam for two years also... killing Jessica, almost killing Dean, the taunting of "you couldn't kill me in your Daddy and now look what happened," giving Sam demon blood, and the whole supernatural build-up involved and messing with him that way with visions, etc. etc., putting Sam in the kill or be killed situation and causing him to actually be killed. And Sam had been looking for the demon and wanting revenge since the pilot episode (so two seasons) as opposed to Dean's "if it means our family being destroyed, I don't care if we ever find this demon" stance. And after all that build-up with the supernatural mytharc and Sam's want for revenge,  where was Sam when the big showdown went down? ...lying on the ground so far away, he couldn't even hear what was going on. So, yeah... it wasn't really that surprising what happened in "Swan Song" with the bait and switch. At least Dean got to be - in my opinion - an integral part of what was going on. Except for being a vehicle for Dean to make the deal and be the "ooh maybe something's wrong with him"  and "I'll save you for a change" red herrings, Sam didn't have to be in the season 2 final episode - except as a corpse - at all, in  my opinion. And he really didn't get any personal closure when it came to Azazel.

 

So bait and switch is something this show does and will likely continue to do as long as it's on. Maybe just to mess with us.

Edited August 10, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

And I do admit to being hypocritical enough in not having a problem with a character completely revolving around another when that other is my favourite. Merlin in the aptly named BBC show in the end lived and breathed for Arthur. I loved it. Why? Because Arthur was my favourite. Yet I hate it here because Dean is mine and not Sam. So I can`t enjoy that construct.

 

 

Consider SPN payback for Merlin then. Merlin was my favourite, sad what they did to him in the end. At least he got to keep his powers. Yes, I already guessed you would have been all over Sam's story like ants to honey if he had been your favourite. 

 

the blame for the apocalypse was pretty much shifted solely to Sam. Except for 1 small mention or two, after season 4, starting the apocalypse was only brought up as being Sam's fault. In my opinion, the show never adequately addressed the emotional effect that Dean's deal had on Sam or the role it might have played in Sam's downfall - it was all about Sam's "pride" and bad choices. Unlike in season 9 where the narrative made a point of showing how Sam contributed to the emotional trauma that lead to Dean's downfall. So for me, Dean making the deal and the effects of that were whitewashed in Dean's favor. He was never really called out by anyone after season 3 for it - unlike Sam starting the apocalypse which was still being brought up 4 seasons later.

 

 

This is why I don't understand the claims that Sam got whitewashed. The narrative was always more sympathetic to Dean. If people thought the writers were trying to blame Dean for Sam's actions in the past, that's nothing compared to last season when Sam was the bad guy who pushed poor hurt Dean into accepting the Mark..If only Sam had been more understanding and supportive, then Dean wouldn't have done what he did, according to some views I've heard.

[mertensia]

 

For me, the point was that Dean was there, physically, now, supporting Sam, not just as a memory. If Dean hadn't been there, it would have actually been helpful to Lucifer in my opinion - another thing for Lucifer to use mentally against Sam - "see, even after all you've been through, your brother has abandoned you, too" (because Lucifer was all about himself.) "In the end, he thinks you're a screw up/monster/whatever insult would work. I'm the only one who understands you now. No one else cares about you. I'm all you have, Sam." And for me this general idea was enforced by "The End" where because Dean stayed away and wasn't there for Sam, the apocalypse did happen in that case - that Sam couldn't do it on his own and in fact failed.

  This is where I fall as well- Dean needed to physically be there for Sam to see and hear. The Impala alone couldn't have done it because there was no Dean there. It's possible Dean alone couldn't have done it. But the pair of them? Yeah, Lucifer couldn't do anything about the duo.