All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Wayward Son]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've been rewatching s2 today for ..reasons.

I think this the best season overall and even though 'The End' is my personal favorite episode for a number of reasons.

I think Nightshifter might be the perfect episode of Supernatural. The boys on hunt, that turns into a caper, we meet Victor Henriksen. Quirky Ben Edlund humor is the best and Ronald Resnick is such a great one off character.

I love that Dean is all aboard with telling Ronald the truth. The fight with the shapeshifter was brutal. And the best music cue in the whole series, IMO. 

Season 2 is also my favourite season <3333. It really is supernatural at its best.

@catrox14's remark has me curious. How would the people posting on here rank the seasons? For me it would go as follows

 

LOVED

Season 2 (A+): This really is Supernatural at its absolute best in my opinion. The stand alones are generally compelling and they rarely feel like 'fillers' as they are often used to give the viewer insight into the emotional state of Sam and Dean. The mytharc was exciting and resonated strongly with the history of the Winchester's and it made me really root for them due to the personal nature of it all. The season also includes some exceptional episodes such as In My Time of Dying, Simon Said, Croatoan, Born Under a Bad Sign and All Hell Breaks Loose Parts I and II.

Season 4 (A+): This is the season we first meet one of my absolute favourite characters (Castiel) and I'd give it praise for that alone. This was also the season where they upped the stakes and managed to get across a sense of urgency and the feeling that this was something bigger than we (and the boys) have ever seen before. The season is also tough to watch in some ways. The relationship between the brothers becomes extremely fractured and the show takes Sam to a pretty dark place. However, unlike many conflicts in later season, I feel this division was organic and the writers took the time to try and share with us Sam's perspective. It also includes some of my favourites such as In The Beginning, It's the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester, I know What You Did Last Summer, Heaven and Hell, On the Head of a Pin and Lucifer Rising.

Season 1 (A): Things were so simple then; two brothers travelling the country in search of their missing father while dealing with the occasional monster or two. This season will always have a special place in my heart as it does a wonderful job of introducing us to Sam and Dean and the world they live in. Things back then were much smaller in scale than they are now, but that is exactly what we needed. Some breathing room to get to know the boys. It also features several episodes I enjoy such as Pilot, Home and Faith. 

Season 3 (A-): This was an enjoyable season all round. I thought Jared and Jensen did an excellent portrayal of their characters respective dread and despair as Dean's looming deadline approached. The episode does have some episodes I didn't enjoy such as Bad Day at Black Rock, Bed Time Stories and Red Sky at Morning. Since the season was shorter than usual the impact of them on my overall enjoyment of the season is great.

Season 5 (A-): Another brilliant high stakes season. I loved the feeling of the boys (including Castiel) against the world as they tried to fight against the desires of Heaven and Hell. However, this is the season when the mythology starts to fall on itself and things become much harder to link with previous seasons. 

 

LIKED TO TOLERABLE

Season 11 (C+): This was easily the best season since the Kripke era as it featured several outstanding episodes such as Baby, Safe House and Red Meat. I also enjoyed seeing the brothers act in sync again after seasons of having some secret or other between them. What lets the season down is the mytharc. It grows just a little too high scales and the main characters become lost in the whole thing. I also disliked the Casifier storyline.

Season 7 (C): Overall, it was a decent season. Sera clearly had a story she wanted to tell and I can appreciate that she had a clear vision of what she wanted the show to be. I am sure that those who share her vision would rank the season higher than I do, but alas I like different things in the show. I like seeing other people interact with the boys. I am a big fan of Castiel and I was a big fan of Bobby in season's past. Therefore her attempt to strip things back to just the brothers by writing out Cas for most of the season, killing off Bobby and even sidelining the impala wasn't to my taste. Beyond that I found the season rather depressing at times.  

Season 10 (C): This season was overall tolerable for me. The interactions between the characters were much improved and there weren't any storylines that offended me unlike the season I would rank below it. 

HATED

Season 6 (D): The only reason this season is spared an F like the two below it is that I actually enjoyed the soulless Sam storyline. I thought the writing team did an excellent job of creating suspense as we all speculated on what was wrong with Sam, and it gave Jared an opportunity to explore a new side of the character without it damaging the Sam we know and love. However, the second half was a big let down with me. It was filled with too many 'wacky' episodes such as Frontierland and The French Mistake. I may have enjoyed these episodes more had they been on their own, but the presence of so many just left me with a feeling of "never mind showing how out of the box you are and get back to the story". I will also never forgive what I consider to be the character assassination of Castiel as they didn't take the time to explore his perspective enough or gave a satisfying conclusion in the season that followed.

Season 8 (F): An all round poorly written season for me. The brothers were written in a poor and contrived manner and retcons that contradicted previous canon became all too common. There are maybe a handful of episodes such as A Little Slice of Kevin, Hunteri Heroici and Everybody Hates Hitler that I'd consider worth rewatching.

Season 9 (F): I hated this season and actually stopped watching in the middle of it until the summer that just past. I hate that they had Dean make a decision that I consider completely and utterly despicable, and they never offered a resolution or a sense of character growth to make the direction worthwhile. It also had similar failings to season eight i.e. shaky characterization and a lack of respect for previously established canon. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

This morning a friend linked me to a debate, over on Twitter, about an issue that has long been a point of contention between those who are fans of Cas and those who aren't. It got me thinking about my own view on the subject. However, I don't have Twitter, and I didn't want to sign up just for the sake of butting into someone else's debate so I'm going to post my thoughts here. Feel free to reply with your thoughts especially if you're someone who would make these arguments. 

Argument 1: Castiel is a terrible person who should be forever maligned as Jimmy Novak did not give true consent at the end of The Rapture. He was blackmailed into it by Castiel.  

My Response: When looking at it objectively the people who make this argument are correct when they say the permission given by Jimmy was not freely given. The episode itself is very explicit about this, as we are clearly shown the only reason he gives Castiel permission is to use him as a vessel is to spare his young daughter Claire from the same fate. I think 'blackmail' is too strong a word, as it is Jimmy who offers to make the switch and there is no indication Castiel's choice to use Claire was malicious. However, whether by design or accident, there is no arguing Jimmy's consent was given under duress.

In my opinion we should consider the full picture before deciding how harshly to judge the angel's actions. At the beginning of the episode Castiel was forcibly removed from his vessel and taken back to Heaven. In season eight (Torn and Frayed, Goodbye Stranger) we learn Heaven's idea of reprogramming includes; memory manipulation, brain washing and mind control. Castiel's actions here are influenced by the programming he had recently undertaken and he was not free to act with full autonomy until Dean's words helped him break free in Lucifer Rising. Therefore, when making a decision on whether he is truly culpable for his actions one should consider their thoughts on other occasions when mind control has influenced a main character. For instance; should the impala have been considered Andy's since Dean 'gave it to him' while under his control in Simon Said? Should Sam be eternally maligned for his torture of Jo while possessed by Meg in Born Under a Bad Sign? Should Bobby have been punished for his murder of Rufus while under the control of the Khan Worm at the end of And Then There Were None? 

From my perspective the answer to those questions is no because the actions were not undertaken with the full consent of each of them. Therefore, neither should Castiel be judged for his harsh behaviour in this scene. If your answer to those question was 'yes' then we share a fundamentally different viewpoint. While I may not agree with that viewpoint I can certainly appreciate it as a valid alternative. On the other hand, if someones answer is 'no' they shouldn't be blamed and yet they still insist on judging Castiel's opinion here then it is outright hypocrisy as far as I am concerned.

Argument 2: It is wrong of Castiel to continue violating Jimmy's body and he is a monster for doing so. He should give up his body like Hannah did for her vessel. 

My Response: First things first; Jimmy is dead. We are given confirmation at the end of Angel Heart where we are shown his reunion with his soul mate Amelia in heaven. What's more the body currently inhabited by Castiel is not the one that Jimmy lived in, that body was destroyed at the end of Lucifer Rising. Therefore, the body currently inhabited by Castiel is not Jimmy's body, but rather it is a doppelganger or a supernaturally constructed clone with the same appearance as Jimmy. Some may consider his continued use of Jimmy's appearance inappropriate (and that is not something I or anyone can state as wrong to feel), but ultimately the blame for his current appearance does not lie with Castiel. It was Guck who reconstructed his body at the end of Lazarus Rising and later in Swan Song. Therefore, it was Guck who made the decision that the doppelganger body worn by Castiel should bear Jimmy's visage. 

Of course one could still make the argument that he should vacate the body, but what good would that do? Firstly, as I mentioned previously, Jimmy is dead. If Castiel were to vacate the body then it would simply rot. His absence wouldn't allow Jimmy a second chance to live the life he wanted. Secondly, if Castiel was needed on earth again what should he do? Use another vessel? Why would he waste a perfectly good body, designed for him, in favour of putting another through the pain he is criticised for putting Jimmy through. 

ITA Wayward.  Honestly, I only see these two arguments by people who want Castiel off the show -- typically with a emphasis on ONLY Sam and Dean.   I think you've covered all possible counter-arguments to those two basic arguments with your post.

Finally, I would add Meg's: "We learn, we grow..." statement from S7 and Castiels "you've changed me..." from S12 to the argument.  The Cas who started the series and believed hitching a human vessel to his angelic rocket ride was okay, is not the same Cas.  If the world's fate was at stake, he'd do it again but temporarily (like Hannah).  However, at this point he's got his own custom-made suit and the circumstances are as clean as they get IMO. 

[Wayward Son]

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

ITA Wayward.  Honestly, I only see these two arguments by people who want Castiel off the show -- typically with a emphasis on ONLY Sam and Dean.   I think you've covered all possible counter-arguments to those two basic arguments with your post.

 

Thanks @SueB. I've seen those arguments come up several times over the years and I needed to vent haha.

From what I have gathered the first argument seems to be a legitimate grievance against Castiel. That is why I tried my best to look at the whole thing objectively, acknowledge where such fans are coming from before sharing my own thoughts on the issue.

The second issue though seems to be used more often as an anti-Destiel argument. When it comes up they're trying to use the consent issues (if Jimmy were actually in there and this was his actual body) in an attempt to shame shippers. However, since I no longer ship Destiel (I haven't since season 9), or expect it to become a im show issue I kept my arguments simply to the regency (or lack there of) of Jimmy.  

A bit of a ranty note but I always find the attempt to shame shippers by referring to Cas' body as a corpse amusing. If dying and resurrecting makes you a corpse forever then Sam and Dean must be corpses too, considering the number of times they've died over the years ;)

Quote

Finally, I would add Meg's: "We learn, we grow..." statement from S7 and Castiels "you've changed me..." from S12 to the argument.  The Cas who started the series and believed hitching a human vessel to his angelic rocket ride was okay, is not the same Cas.  If the world's fate was at stake, he'd do it again but temporarily (like Hannah).  However, at this point he's got his own custom-made suit and the circumstances are as clean as they get IMO. 

That is an excellent point @SueB. I can't understand how anyone watching this season can think the Castiel of now is the same as the Castiel of season four. There has been such an emphasis on how much he has grown throughout the years. I agree with you if he could do it now he'd do things differently. 

However, I don't even think Cas' treatment was that bad. Don't get me wrong, it is tragic that Jimmy died, but I don't think the blame for that should rest with Cas. For the majority of S4 Castiel possessed Jimmy believing it was for a good purpose I.e. stopping the apocalypse. This was a course of action Jimmy consented to. When he discovered the truth he was brainwashed and therefore not accountable for his behaviour. Then shortly after freeing himself from this behaviour Jimmy (his body and soul) was killed by Raphael,  while Cas was attempting to help Dean stop Sam from killing Lilith. In my opinion there really wasn't a time where it'd have made sense for him to let Jimmy go. I mean the night he broke through the mind control the last seal was about to be broken. Was he really expected to go like "I'm gonna sit this one out and float around and leave Dean to sort this himself?" 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

A bit of a ranty note but I always find the attempt to shame shippers by referring to Cas' body as a corpse amusing. If dying and resurrecting makes you a corpse forever then Sam and Dean must be corpses too, considering the number of times they've died over the years ;)

Hee! They're all a bunch of revenants looking for some brains! ;)

As to your actual question, my stance is Cass is no different than anyone on else on this show. He's made mistakes, but also tried to not make those same mistakes again. I'm just not one to think someone is forever defined by one single action. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hee! They're all a bunch of revenants looking for some brains! ;)

As to your actual question, my stance is Cass is no different than anyone on else on this show. He's made mistakes, but also tried to not make those same mistakes again. I'm just not one to think someone is forever defined by one single action. 

Aha, that explains why we don't get to see them eat in the diner scene! The show runners must have thought brain pie was a little too gory for the new time slot! 

And I agree with you completely :D . Thanks for posting, I really appreciated reading your thoughts! And the chuckle the revenants joke gave me haha

[catrox14]

Sounds to me like both arguments in that debate are born of an agenda to get Misha off the show.

If A1 is true , then Castiel  is evil like Lucifer and  should have been killed by good angels/the boys  for staying in a vessel that he doesn't have proper permission to reside. At minimum, the boys should not be allies and maybe even enemies. But that  just makes him a formidable villain in the form of Misha Collins. No reason to kill off a good villain especially one who was a long time ally to the boys.

If A1 is true,  then A2 doesn't solve Evil!Castiel is just puts Evil! Castiel in  a non-Misha Collins meatsuit. If A1 isn't true then it's not because they think Castiel is bad they just want him in a different meatsuit.

Their agenda seems pretty clear to me. JMO.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

However, I don't even think Cas' treatment was that bad. Don't get me wrong, it is tragic that Jimmy died, but I don't think the blame for that should rest with Cas.

Also, remember that angels as originally shown were effectively amoral (that is, they considered everything they did was "righteous"--including smiting whole cities--because (they thought) the orders came directly from God.  But even when that was proven false, none of the angels (except Hannah) showed any concern for their vessels.  Consider how many vessels died during the angel wars, which was *after* Naomi's mind control ended.  I think Cas and Hannah were considered "enlightened" in that they actually considered the humans they were living among.   IMO, that's why Chuck kept resurrecting Cas--because he wanted that new way of thinking to continue and spread.

Cas's recreated vessel was his alone (you can actually compare it to Ruby 2, "I recycled!") because it wasn't displacing or usurping any human soul so there should be no guilt attached.  (And since it's not the original Jimmy, he's not a revenant or zombie, though I'd enjoy seeing him show up again--maybe craving raw hamburger again instead of brains!)

Edited February 23, 2017 by ahrtee
Vessel only has two s's, even if spellcheck didn't notice.

[rue721]

Taken from the Stuck in the Middle with You thread.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Sure, the djinn picked and chose from Dean's memory.  But if he really wanted him to stay in his dreamverse, wouldn't he have picked some happier memories?  That's what he seemed to do with the girl who was also trapped.  It's not like the season 8 djinn that fed off fear and negative emotions.

We know Dean had good memories, especially with Sam, when they were close.   Why would the djinn pick memories that made him seem a disappointment to his family if those weren't foremost in Dean's mind?  (Again, it was Kripke's idea to make him a loser in that world, so you can blame that on him!)

About Dean's It's a Terrible Life persona...he wasn't a loser there, just a completely different person, and one that the "real" Dean wouldn't want to be.  Zach was just trying to get him to realize that he actually enjoyed hunting (which was probably part his character, as a risk-taker/adrenaline junkie, and part his upbringing, which gave him a useful outlet for it.)  

I think the Djinn triggered Dean's own mind to construct a fantasy of "if mom lived" or "a happy life" or whatever, and the world we saw was what Dean's Djinn-addled mind came up with based on that trigger. IMO it was more like a dream than like a full-fledged, constructed world (like Zachariah's). The girl showing up was just reality poking through.

The meta explanation for why John wasn't there was that the show couldn't get the actor, but I think a pretty plausible within-show reason could have been that Dean couldn't really imagine a version of his dad that didn't hunt. That seemed too fantastical to Dean, even according to his own dream logic, and forcing a non-hunting version of John into that world would have burst the bubble of the fantasy. YMMV.

I think that the reason that Dean was (perceived as) so irresponsible within the Djinn fantasy world was because being irresponsible (or having the freedom to be irresponsible) is a fantasy to him, too. Despite being a goofball, he seems to have really always been a very responsible person.

Anyway, I don't think the Djinn was sorting through Dean's memories or fantasies or thoughts himself. It's been a long time since I saw that episode, though, so I'm not 100% positive on how it worked.

To Dean, I think it was a very happy dream. It wasn't perfect, but it was happy. After all, he felt very tempted to stay.

I actually thought that Dean seemed pretty content in Zachariah's fake world, too. Doesn't necessarily mean anything about his character, though, aside from that he's pretty good at playing with whatever hand he's dealt. And that maybe he doesn't like change, lol. He didn't see monsters coming in and infecting either of those worlds as an adventure, he saw it as a catastrophe. I don't think that's because he hates hunting, I think that's about him not liking loss or being really sensitive to loss or something.

Edited February 23, 2017 by rue721
grammar!

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Also, remember that angels as originally shown were effectively amoral (that is, they considered everything they did was "righteous"--including smiting whole cities--because (they thought) the orders came directly from God.  But even when that was proven false, none of the angels (except Hannah) showed any concern for their vessels.  Consider how many vessels died during the angel wars, which was *after* Naomi's mind control ended.  I think Cas and Hannah were considered "enlightened" in that they actually considered the humans they were living among.   IMO, that's why Chuck kept resurrecting Cas--because he wanted that new way of thinking to continue and spread.

Cas's recreated vessel was his alone (you can actually compare it to Ruby 2, "I recycled!") because it wasn't displacing or usurping any human soul so there should be no guilt attached.  (And since it's not the original Jimmy, he's not a revenant or zombie, though I'd enjoy seeing him show up again--maybe craving raw hamburger again instead of brains!)

 Agreed, Hannah and Cas were shown to be very unique amongst the Angels for the care they showed for humanity.

and agreed! I actually think that could be a part of why they brought Jimmy back in season 10 to settle the debate of whether he was still there once and for all. I always thought he wasn't, and I was delighted to find out he got his happy ending in heaven :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Agreed, Hannah and Cas were shown to be very unique amongst the Angels for the care they showed for humanity.

There have been a couple others I can think of off the top of my head: Akobel and the red-headed angel that Metatron got the crowd to kill.  I'd like to think there were more.  Maybe it's just because - nature of the beast, so to speak - the ones Sam and Dean et. al. usually come across don't like humans.  The ones who do aren't hurting anyone or really causing problems, after all.  

[catrox14]

@ahrtee

Quote

Sure, the djinn picked and chose from Dean's memory.  But if he really wanted him to stay in his dreamverse, wouldn't he have picked some happier memories?  That's what he seemed to do with the girl who was also trapped.  It's not like the season 8 djinn that fed off fear and negative emotions.

We know Dean had good memories, especially with Sam, when they were close.   Why would the djinn pick memories that made him seem a disappointment to his family if those weren't foremost in Dean's mind?  (Again, it was Kripke's idea to make him a loser in that world, so you can blame that on him!)

About Dean's It's a Terrible Life persona...he wasn't a loser there, just a completely different person, and one that the "real" Dean wouldn't want to be.  Zach was just trying to get him to realize that he actually enjoyed hunting (which was probably part his character, as a risk-taker/adrenaline junkie, and part his upbringing, which gave him a useful outlet for it.)  

 

My take was the djinn was used memories of Mary, Sam and John to make a peaceful life but Dean's subconscious knew that wasn't right from the moment he was captured and hexed. So whenever there was a potentially happy, peaceful moment like a sandwich at Mary's or mowing the lawn or her touch or Dean calling Sam for help and it became a negative scenario it wasn't the djinn creating a negative scenario but was  Dean's mind trying to break the control for the djinn because it didn't jive with Dean's actual reality.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

@ahrtee

 

My take was the djinn was used memories of Mary, Sam and John to make a peaceful life but Dean's subconscious knew that wasn't right from the moment he was captured and hexed. So whenever there was a potentially happy, peaceful moment like a sandwich at Mary's or mowing the lawn or her touch or Dean calling Sam for help and it became a negative scenario it wasn't the djinn creating a negative scenario but was  Dean's mind trying to break the control for the djinn because it didn't jive with Dean's actual reality.

That might work.  After all, he did keep seeing things from "real life" (including the dead bodies in the closet) that kept reminding him it wasn't real.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

My take was the djinn was used memories of Mary, Sam and John to make a peaceful life but Dean's subconscious knew that wasn't right from the moment he was captured and hexed. So whenever there was a potentially happy, peaceful moment like a sandwich at Mary's or mowing the lawn or her touch or Dean calling Sam for help and it became a negative scenario it wasn't the djinn creating a negative scenario but was  Dean's mind trying to break the control for the djinn because it didn't jive with Dean's actual reality.

I was always under the impression Djinn basically drugged their victims when they touched them. I thought it was an acid trip driven by Dean's own desire for everyone in his life to get that happy ending. I don't think the Djinn "create" anything.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was always under the impression Djinn basically drugged their victims when they touched them. I thought it was an acid trip driven by Dean's own desire for everyone in his life to get that happy ending. I don't think the Djinn "create" anything.

The professor that Dean visited told him that a djinn can alter anything
 

Quote

 

DEAN Yeah, I know. I-I-I know. I know. But uh... I mean in the stories. You know, say you had a wish, uh. But you never even said it out loud. Like that, uh... that a loved one never died. Or that, uh, something awful never happened.

PROFESSOR Supposedly, yes. I mean they have godlike power. They can alter reality however they want. Past. Present. Future.

DEAN Why would the Djinn do it? What, self-defense? Or maybe it's not really evil.

 

I've always presumed that since the narrative told us what a djinn can do that it was actively going into Dean's mind when it first zapped him with it's fingers. When he went to the young girl and she woke up he put his fingers to her forehead and put her back to sleep which I always thought was him messing with her memories. I presumed he did the same thing with Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I've always presumed that since the narrative told us what a djinn can do that it was actively going into Dean's mind when it first zapped him with it's fingers. When he went to the young girl and she woke up he put his fingers to her forehead and put her back to sleep which I always thought was him messing with her memories. I presumed he did the same thing with Dean. 

See, I was under the impression the Djinn was re-dosing the girl because the drug was wearing off. I don't put too much stalk into the professor's "lore" because the lore--especially when spouted from a civilian--is spotty at best. 

Plus, going by the later episodes that dealt with Djinn and Djinn-offshoots, it seems to reinforce the idea that the Djinn drug their victims and whatever they dream is their dream. But, that's probably just me.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I was under the impression the Djinn was re-dosing the girl because the drug was wearing off. I don't put too much stalk into the professor's "lore" because the lore--especially when spouted from a civilian--is spotty at best. 

Plus, going by the later episodes that dealt with Djinn and Djinn-offshoots, it seems to reinforce the idea that the Djinn drug their victims and whatever they dream is their dream. But, that's probably just me.

I'm just going by what was learned in the episode. In the early seasons the formula was that person who is supposed to be an expert and says this is how XYZ works, without any other information in the episode that contradicts that information, then what the professor said was true.

Quote

SAM I don't know. I guess they're powerful enough. But not exactly like Barbara Eden in harem pants. I mean, Djinn have been feeding off people for centuries. They're all over the Koran.

Given the conversation he and Sam had as to whether djinns could really grant wishes or not and Dean talking to the professor in his djinnverse, I took that as confirmation that djinns are powerful enough to alter reality. I thought the drugging was to keep Dean and the girl to weak to be able to consciously figure out it wasn't reality. Not that the drugs themselves were causing the reality altering. 

But that's just my take on the whole thing. 

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

They've been depowering him little by little since season 8 it seems. Bad ass Castiel seems to be forever gone now :(

I understand that they can't have him too powerful for the sake of maintaining some tension in the story, but there's depowered and then there's plain old incompetent IMO. The writers sadly seemed to have opted for the latter this season :( 

A random ranty note, but putting aside my Cas issues I thought the whole vampire hunt was such a stupid example of the Winchester's importance to the world. When Cas made his speech I was kinda like "eh, if the worst that happened in those six weeks was a vampire hunt that any half decent hunter would have been able to complete then not really". Their decision to pick such a mundane hunt for him to fail at ruined the point of his speech for me. 

Although being a Cas fan I got fuzzy feelings knowing he cares for them, but beyond that eh haha. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I understand that they can't have him too powerful for the sake of maintaining some tension in the story, but there's depowered and then there's plain old incompetent IMO. The writers sadly seemed to have opted for the latter this season :( 

A random rants not, but putting aside my Cas issues I thought the whole vampire hunt was such a stupid example of the Winchester's importance to the world. When Cas made his speech I was kinda like "eh, if the worst that happened in those six weeks was a vampire hunt that any half decent hunter would have been able to complete then not really". Their decision to pick such a mundane hunt for him to fail at ruined the point of his speech for me. 

Although being a Cas fan I got fuzzy feelings knowing he cares for them, but beyond that eh haha. 

I miss the days when a demon just seeing Cas in the room would be enough to make them nervous. Nowadays it just makes them eager to attack and they always get the upper hand.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I miss the days when a demon just seeing Cas in the room would be enough to make them nervous. Nowadays it just makes them eager to attack and they always get the upper hand.

 I miss the days when Angels in general were considered fierce enemies. Now a days they're easily taken out by a crowd of homeless people. 

I suppose considering how easily Dagon smited those two angels in the alley we could consider Cas' shameful showing against Ramiel a win hahaha

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

 I miss the days when Angels in general were considered fierce enemies. Now a days they're easily taken out by a crowd of homeless people. 

I suppose considering how easily Dagon smited those two angels in the alley we could consider Cas' shameful showing against Ramiel a win hahaha

I miss the days when Castiel's brothers and sisters actually treated him as such instead of like a leper whenever he encounters them. Overall I'm just tired of Cas the Sad Sack. Give him something to do besides look sad and get beaten up!

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I miss the days when Castiel's brothers and sisters actually treated him as such instead of like a leper whenever he encounters them. Overall I'm just tired of Cas the Sad Sack. Give him something to do besides look sad and get beaten up!

 I don't mind the Angels attitude towards Castiel. It is realistic he has made a number of enemies over the year. He rebelled against the upper echelon during season five, he smited a number of Angels while he was in Godstiel mode and his involvement in their banishment from heaven (and the still felt damage to their wings) certainly didn't earn him any friends. Additionally, the amount of damage that has occurred to those surrounding them over the years makes it understandable many would be wary of him. 

Then again I suppose the same could be said of Sam and Dean haha

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

 I don't mind the Angels attitude towards Castiel. It is realistic he has made a number of enemies over the year. He rebelled against the upper echelon during season five, he smited a number of Angels while he was in Godstiel mode and his involvement in their banishment from heaven (and the still felt damage to their wings) certainly didn't earn him any friends. Additionally, the amount of damage that has occurred to those surrounding them over the years makes it understandable many would be wary of him. 

Then again I suppose the same could be said of Sam and Dean haha

Yes of course some of them should be wary of him but it's still ridiculous that they all show such disdain for him. Besides Hannah and Balthazar have any actually been kind towards him? I'm honestly curious because I can't think of any.

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes of course some of them should be wary of him but it's still ridiculous that they all show such disdain for him. Besides Hannah and Balthazar have any actually been kind towards him? I'm honestly curious because I can't think of any.

Off the top of my head Inias from Reading is Fundamental seemed to be in awe of him. Although I'm shameless here and kind of think Inias also seemed to have a little crush on Cas ;) hehe. 

I can't remember beyond that. I do think though Angels don't hold brother and sisters with the regard we do. They use that term because they were all hand made by Guck and don't have other parents. I think the title comes from a place of practicality than fondness or emotion. I'd say, with some exceptions, Angels mostly regarded each other as fellow soldiers rather than siblings to be loved. This is why they regard Castiel the soldier gone off the reservation with disdain at best and outright hatred at worst.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Off the top of my head Inias from Reading is Fundamental seemed to be in awe of him. Although I'm shameless here and kind of think Inias also seemed to have a little crush on Cas ;) hehe. 

I can't remember beyond that. I do think though Angels don't hold brother and sisters with the regard we do. They use that term because they were all hand made by Guck and don't have other parents. I think the title comes from a place of practicality than fondness or emotion. I'd say, with some exceptions, Angels mostly regarded each other as fellow soldiers rather than siblings to be loved. This is why they regard Castiel the soldier gone off the reservation with disdain at best and outright hatred at worst.

You know now that I think about it what happened to all of the Angels that backed him in Stairway to Heaven? I know that they left him after he refused to kill Dean in regards to their belief that he killed Tessa. That being said after he ultimately exposed Metatron on the intercom in Heaven and they were able to see the truth shouldn't he be given credit for that? It just seems that they cling to all of the bad and act as though everything he's done to right his wrongs are meaningless.

[Wayward Son]

I'm reading the episode thread on here for the prisoner and now I'm having flashbacks to all the "Sam, Dean and Cas are villains the world would be better without" meta that appeared after the season 10 finale aired. 

Thank God for this season they're all back to being portrayed as good people making the best of things. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

Regarding the discussion (in the Spoiler thread) of the re-write of the Born-Again Identity Scene to be "less problem-romance reunion" and more consistent with their characters:

1) Jensen and Jared did a similar bit when Sam left Dean in Slash Fiction.  It came across like a romantic breakup versus two brothers arguing. I think after THAT experience J2 (and later Misha) felt more embolden to fix dialog they felt didn't fit.
2) Singer was the director for Born Again -- he's as curmudgeonly as they come and NOT one for 'feelings' dialog.
3) Honestly, I'm not sure Jensen was very happy with Sera Gamble and I think he let that show a bit.  In addition to the article that was referenced in Spoilers, he also was critical of the decision to put Baby in a Barn for nearly a year.  

I think J2 are both protective of their characters and I think they 'stepped up' a bit more once there was a change in show-runners.  They were now the character continuity more than ever.  Under Kripke, I think they were okay rolling with his vision.  But after they changed show-runners, they took a little more ownership.  It's a pretty natural response.  And honestly, at this point, they are on show-runner #4 and everyone says the show works because J2 makes it work.  

I wasn't part of the SPN community at the time they went from S5 to S6 but I do remember the articles coming out in January saying the show was going on without Kripke and that this was a BIG deal.  I wondered at the time if it would succeed.  I think it's happened more SINCE SPN did it, but not very often and not always well.  Look at Gilmore Girls S7... many flat out refuse to acknowledge it existed.  I'm not a big enough GG fan to say whether or not that was true, but I know it was STILL an issue when the revival came out.  Conversely, SPN motored on.  And if J2 had NOT taken a larger involvement, I'm not sure it would have been successful.  I haven't heard any stories about why Sera Gamble left but it was after only two years (they knew Carver was coming in by January of her second year).  I would surprise me if J2 did NOT have an influence on this.  The boys contracts were originally contracted for a standard 7 years.  They had a lot of leverage to make changes in S8 if they wanted to IMO.  Plus, honestly, J2  are pretty tight with Bob Singer. And it's a oft-repeated story that Sera intended to never bring Cas back and Carver insisted that was part of the deal.  I could see J2 weighing in on that as well.  Not just from time-off perspective, but she killed Bobby AND Cas.  "We have no friends" was so very true in S7.  No wonder Dean was drinking heavily. 

Some have written that J2 are just 'actors' and must say the lines given to them.  I'm thinking "What show have YOU been watching?"  As the years go by, the more the boys are contributing to dialog and little scene adds.  Yes, there are times that when push comes to shove, they DON'T get their way (the infamous Charlie death argument, with reports Jensen gave an earful to Singer to change his/Carver's mind and was unsuccessful). Jensen also wanted more Purgatory and Demon Dean time, Jared always liked Sam with special abilities.  These things didn't materialize and the guys roll with that. But they have a shit-ton more power than most leads -- even without being named exec producers.  

Finally, my day job is to wield power and influence with zero authority.  I have to do everything by logic and "referent" power.  Subsequently, I've gotten fairly good are recognizing who are the power brokers in a situation and who are second-order influencers.  As I see it, J2 are nearly equivalent with Singer and Dabb.  They are not prima donnas, never have been, but they get their way if it really matters.  From little things (like the RIGHT hand-gun) to big things (like the money spent on the Hero 1 Impala engine), they shape a great deal.  And, if you look at the economic impact on Vancouver that catrox put up (media thread?), with the show DEPENDENT on J2, the writers & producers are going to continue to work hard to make stories the boys believe are good for Supernatural. Because that's what'll take to keep Supernatural on the air.    

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Some have written that J2 are just 'actors' and must say the lines given to them.  I'm thinking "What show have YOU been watching?"

They have influence but that also don't control actually storylines. They themselves remind us that they don't write the show unless they are lying liars who lie.

I think they have much more leeway than many actors but if a SL is going to happen, it's going to happen.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Not just from time-off perspective, but she killed Bobby AND Cas.  "We have no friends" was so very true in S7.  No wonder Dean was drinking heavily. 

I remember reading ( I can't recall where..it may have been here ) that she felt that Bobby and Cas had run their course and I thought that was total bullshit. When you have beloved characters that add to the story line why kill them off? Just for a more interesting story? Between Bobby, Rufus, Charlie, Kevin, and lesser seen characters like Victor, Balthazar ( sobbing ) and Gabriel ( despite my love/hate for him ) they had much potential to flesh out the Supernatural universe instead of the never ending story that seems to mostly consist of Angel, Demon and Lucifer drama for the last few seasons.

[auntvi]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they have much more leeway than many actors but if a SL is going to happen, it's going to happen.

Remember the kerfuffle at the end of last season? I don't remember all of the details, but J2 pushed against the writing/SL of the last 3 episodes. They succeeded in changing some things, but the network wouldn't go along with the suggestion to make those 3 episodes into 2 better episodes.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, auntvi said:

Remember the kerfuffle at the end of last season? I don't remember all of the details, but J2 pushed against the writing/SL of the last 3 episodes. They succeeded in changing some things, but the network wouldn't go along with the suggestion to make those 3 episodes into 2 better episodes.

I don't remember it being said they pushed against the writing. They said it was a highly collaborative effort by all of them to get what they had. I think that was more about helping Dabb sort out the finale.

I still can't fathom why either J would ask for the final two episodes be scrapped at the last minute. I mean surely they knew ad time had already been sold and the cost of doing that would be exorbitant.  Maybe if they had suggested it like before the mid season finale they could have done something but as far as I know all the ad time is sold based on X number of episodes being ordered before the season starts.  They would lose all that revenue. Dumping extra cast members. Day players it probably doesn't matter but any other actors that were due to be in those episodes would have to be paid if they had already signed a contract, I would think.

Creatively sure that might have worked better but from a business perspective I still can't believe they seriously asked for that.  

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't remember it being said they pushed against the writing. They said it was a highly collaborative effort by all of them to get what they had. I think that was more about helping Dabb sort out the finale.

I still can't fathom why either J would ask for the final two episodes be scrapped at the last minute. I mean surely they knew ad time had already been sold and the cost of doing that would be exorbitant.  Maybe if they had suggested it like before the mid season finale they could have done something but as far as I know all the ad time is sold based on X number of episodes being ordered before the season starts.  They would lose all that revenue. Dumping extra cast members. Day players it probably doesn't matter but any other actors that were due to be in those episodes would have to be paid if they had already signed a contract, I would think.

Creatively sure that might have worked better but from a business perspective I still can't believe they seriously asked for that.  

As I recall, they suggested stopping at "And Don't Call Me Shurley" because the last three episodes were not in good shape.

You had: "All in the Family" - aka new prophet, free Luci caper - a B-L episode
               "We Happy Few" - the failed battle - a Carver episode that was shifted to Berens
               "Alpha and Omega" - finale - Dabb

 Apparently Carver had completely pulled out and Bobo Berens had to write his episode. And Dabb wanted to kill God (which the networks said "NO"... which I agree with BTW).  But as to what else had to be "fixed", I can't say.  Note: with a B-L episode, I could see it being disjointed and Dabb too focused on the finale to do a good polish. It just sounds more like it was a bit all over and J2 along with M2 each were on the phone working with the writers to get some of the scenes done.  So, if it started out with "God dies" and they had to re-write that, then I'm thinking the entire finale was redone -- not just dialog.  And honestly, I really liked a lot of the scenes in the finale so I'm okay with the rewrite they did.  It was definitely a quieter finish but I thought it was appropriate way to resolve the Darkness issue.  

Edited March 2, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

As I recall, they suggested stopping at "And Don't Call Me Shurley" because the last three episodes were not in good shape.

I know someone suggested it but I don't understand how they would think the network would do that. Like it seems from a business perspective they would know that can't happen.  That's what I don't get.

OH how I wish they had killed off God and Amara. LOL Too bad

[rue721]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

2) I agree that Sam is both more reserved and quicker to forgive because he was so grateful that people forgave him. But I also think Sam is a master of  compartmentalization.  Once he's rationalized something, he compartments away the bits that don't fit (like horrific betrayal) so that it doesn't interfere with what he's doing.  He went to extremes in Mystery Spot.  And again, to some extent, in S8 by dropping hunting.  Those were not the best coping mechanisms for those situations BUT, when used appropriately the ability to compartmentalize is very useful.  It helps him "work now, argue later".  I wonder if he developed that because he was forced to do stuff he didn't want as a child and he pushed down his anger and got through it, then blew up later.  Anyway, I think the ability to compartmentalize helps him work with those he has issues with.

I think you're right, Sam is very good at compartmentalization. But IMO he just generally seems out of touch with his emotions. I think that's why he'll either be 100% OK or totally losing it in a huge outburst (cough Purge cough). My take is that he doesn't really know how he's feeling until he's suddenly OVERWHELMED WITH FEELINGS and then they explode out everywhere...and afterwards, he's over it, he's cleansed, he has shat out these emotions and now he can flush them away (to be crude -- sorry)...but whoever he had the outburst toward is now stuck feeling weird.

IMO he probably didn't develop that trait by being especially practiced at controlling his feelings as a child. I actually think that Sam is pretty bad at controlling his feelings even now -- he either has to totally excise or compartmentalize them, or they're completely controlling *him.*

Not that I have a good guess at how he DID develop that trait!

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

Remember the kerfuffle at the end of last season? I don't remember all of the details, but J2 pushed against the writing/SL of the last 3 episodes. They succeeded in changing some things, but the network wouldn't go along with the suggestion to make those 3 episodes into 2 better episodes.

Wow, seriously? They wanted to trim off an episode? That's pretty extreme.

I'm with @catrox14 in that I don't understand how they would even have thought that was a possibility. If nothing else, the money was already spent, so they might as well air whatever they could. A terrible episode is loads better than no episode, business-wise, I would think? You can't just dip out on contracts.

And honestly, how bad could the episodes have possibly have been? I don't remember liking those episodes a whole lot, but this series has had some terrrrrrrible episodes in its time. What was so bad about these in particular?!

[auntvi]

At the time I thought, wow if these 3 episodes have been "fixed" the originals must have been horrible. But I haven't gone back to re-watch since last year. My semi-annual Netflix SPN binge has stalled in the middle of Season 10.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

They had a lot of leverage to make changes in S8 if they wanted to IMO.

If so, it certainly didn't show, in my opinion at least. I myself am surprised that Jared would have been okay with the choices made for his character in season 8... especially not looking for Dean or Kevin. And that Amelia storyline had to be one of the lamest - if not the lamest - the show has every had. So I'm not sure that Jared at least really benefited from the showrunner change to Carver. Maybe Jensen did with the purgatory and Mark of Cain storylines - though I think the potential from the purgatory storyline was better than what Carver actually did with it. But that season certainly did Sam's character no favors that I saw.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Honestly, I'm not sure Jensen was very happy with Sera Gamble and I think he let that show a bit.  In addition to the article that was referenced in Spoilers, he also was critical of the decision to put Baby in a Barn for nearly a year.

Jensen may not have liked the Impala being benched for 3/4 of the season, but the episode it happened in was one of my favorites of the series and I enjoyed the "Nobody puts Baby in a corner" line and that entire scene - including the "death" of my little pony and the lip synching to Air Supply - entirely too much to give it up. Obviously miles vary.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Not just from time-off perspective, but she killed Bobby AND Cas.  "We have no friends" was so very true in S7.

Yes, they did kill off Bobby, but I think by that time there was already some push back against his character by some fans. I wouldn't have agreed with Castiel though. As for Rufus, yes, it was sad that he was killed off in season 6 - I loved Rufus - though he was Sera's creation, so if she wanted to kill him off, maybe that was her choice to make. And season 7 did give us a bunch of new characters, including potential friends - Kevin, Charlie, Garth, and a larger presence for Jody (she was featured in at least 3 episodes that season). So I don't quite agree that they didn't have any friends in season 7. They just had new friends. Sadly however, in my opinion, season 8 mostly squandered those potential new friends, especially Kevin, who under Caver's direction I thought they treated fairly shabbily. And we didn't see Jody all season 8 until the very last episode... when Crowley tried to kill her and her fate was left hanging in the air - nice, Carver. She didn't interact with Dean or Sam at all.

Actually I thought under Sera's run, the boys had more potential new friends than they had under Carver with Jody, Charlie, and Garth and later Kevin. Carver killed off 2/3 of those, and didn't really introduce many new ones - except Benny who he also killed - so I guess it's all a matter pf perspective. I'd say the boys have fewer friends now than ever. There's pretty much Castiel and once (or one time twice) a season Jody and a couple of times Donna. Kevin and Charlie are dead and Garth is sidelined. Again miles vary there. By the end of season 8, I myself was wishing Sera was back... actually I was pretty much wishing that by the time episode 3 of that season came around, but that's well worn territory, so I'll stop there.

[SueB]

I didn't mean to imply the boys influenced the specific S8 storylines so much as influenced change in show runner and return of Misha. 

[AwesomO4000]

Ah, my apologies, @SueB. Looking at your comments again, I can see that now.

I guess it's a sore spot for me in general. I actually might've liked to see what Sera would've done with another season. Her Sam character evolution was going well, in my opinion, so I would've liked to see what she would've done with Dean after a trip to purgatory. Though I also know that on that point, there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. However, based on the "petty, little jerks" (TM DittyDotDot) we got from Carver for two seasons, for me almost anything would've been better.

[Myrelle]

I don't think Dean would have gone to Purgatory if Gamble was still showrunner. She liked Dean strictly in the emo supportive role, IMO-which I'd grown to despise after so many seasons of it. At least Carver gave us ActionDean back AND at long last a bonafide myth arc role that wasn't just a tease or red herring and that had a somewhat satisfying conclusion(for me).

The thing about the Gamble years for me is that they were mainly just forgettable. I can barely remember any of the episodes from 6 and 7 except for maybe the beginning of 6 because I hated it so much, but a ton of just meh episodes from her made me happy for the change and even though I hated 8(except for Purgatory and Benny), 9 and 10 were a vast improvement over 6-8 for me. I think it was after S9 that the show got it's reprieve from the Friday slot, too.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

so I would've liked to see what she would've done with Dean after a trip to purgatory. Though I also know that on that point, there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. 

Yeah, I admit, it would have been a nightmare scenario for me. Not that Carver initially came in much better. I still really love the ideas of Cain, the Mark of Cain story and the Amara story so I wouldn`t want to lose those. I guess those were Carver`s ideas - can`t see it coming from Singer - so I have to credit him as showrunner.

I would have significantly reworked Season 8 and the beginning of Season 9, though. Have the balls to do at least a five-seven-ep arc split between Purgatory and Earth. Of course that nixes the Amelia stuff. Then if you must do the trials, have them do it together and decide to stop because it will do do evil spirits what closing heaven did to good spirits. An easy and understandable explanation for not going through with that.

Make Abaddon more of a threat. Hey, she could kill poor Kevin if they must. So it makes sense for Dean to take on the Mark. And proceed for there. Heck, cut out the becoming a demon part if it serves no purpose.

Some good ideas are there, they just needed tweaking. It`s more than I can say for Dabb.      

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I don't think Dean would have gone to Purgatory if Gamble was still showrunner. 

Gamble is the one who put Dean in Purgatory. 

[Aeryn13]

I think at that point she was already on her way out and Carver had already finalized the deal to come onboard and take over. If Gamble had stayed on, I think Season 7 wouldn`t have ended the way it did. 

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think at that point she was already on her way out and Carver had already finalized the deal to come onboard and take over. If Gamble had stayed on, I think Season 7 wouldn`t have ended the way it did. 

IA. And I think that 5 wouldn't have ended the way it did either because I think she also had a lot of say in what happened in a lot of S5, too; especially after The End. I really think that all of the seasons that lead into the showrunner changes were very tumultuous and it showed in the disjointed writing with 11 probably being the most obvious example of that, but I can see it pretty well in 5 and 7 also, in hindsight.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course that nixes the Amelia stuff.

I would've been ecstatic about that, because I thought that the Amelia arc was the lamest arc this show ever did... and that was even before the "surprise, the husband isn't dead" crap. And of course they wouldn't let the Amelia arc die either, leading to Sam pathetically spouting to Meg, of all people, about his one true love. Gag. Season 8 was the only time in the show's history where I stopped watching for a few episodes in disgust.

I think maybe the problem with Carver as a showrunner was that either he didn't bother to watch and/or acknowledge the character growth that had happened while he was away from the show - and even his own later character development - or he decided to "correct it" in the worst way possible by just skipping development and just rewriting the characters how he wanted them to be - which if so, yeesh - without earning that change. Which lead me to basically ask "who are these people?" throughout much of season 8.

I actually enjoyed much of season 10 - except for the secrets and lies and of course the inevitable "Sam is wrong and so therefor starts an apocalypse" redux parts - and really, really enjoyed season 11, but I think I'm giving much of season 11 to Dabb.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think at that point she was already on her way out and Carver had already finalized the deal to come onboard and take over. If Gamble had stayed on, I think Season 7 wouldn`t have ended the way it did. 

My opinion only here: I don't know. Gamble wrote the episode, and based on what Carver did with it, I'm not sure he was all that interested in Purgatory or exploring how it affected Dean. If he was, I don't think he would've relegated it to flashbacks and basically ignored any real character repercussions for Dean - with Jensen providing most of the PTSD clues himself, in my opinion. And then Carver turned what might've been an interesting "brother in arms" / potential grey area friendship with Benny - who could've been a really interesting character - into more of a soap opera / angsty trope for Sam to be jealous of - which WtF? So from what I could see, purgatory looked like more of an inconvenience to Carver rather than something he actually wanted to be put into the story. To me, since Gamble seemed to be the one who enjoyed looking at the affects on characters after big things like that - like what happened to Sam after he went into the cage - Purgatory seems more like something she would want, with some emotional character ramifications for Dean this time.* But again that's just my opinion based on what happened in season 8.

* I'm not saying that everyone would've enjoyed what her character ramifications were, but I'm saying I could imagine that there would actually be some rather than it being pretty much ignored, and oh look Dean's back after a year fighting monsters nonstop in purgatory and he's... pretty much the same... unless you count the later de-evolution of Dean into becoming a bit wishy-washy and not sticking up for himself anymore at all despite being independent and resourceful for a year on his own. Which is the opposite of what should have happened in my opinion. And is more evidence to me that Carver wasn't at all interested in the purgatory storyline and why I think it was Gamble's idea.

Edited March 2, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

To me, since Gamble seemed to be the one who enjoyed looking at the affects on characters after big things like that - like what happened to Sam after he went into the cage

I think she was interested in Sam, period, and that is why this happened. That`s why I can extrapolate to other characters from that, least of all Dean where she was concerned.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think she was interested in Sam, period, and that is why this happened. That`s why I can extrapolate to other characters from that, least of all Dean where she was concerned.

Oh, I disagree, I think she was very interested in Dean, just not in a way that you were interested in Dean. Personally, I love S6 and S7 because, IMO, they were all about Dean. What happens if you take everything away from Dean, who does he become? I understand you don't care for that kind of thing, and it's valid, but labeling Gamble as a Dean-hater isn't necessarily true, IMO.

Edited March 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

I don't think Gamble disliked Dean.  I think she liked both boys. I do think she might have had a little crush on Sam (and really, that pull-up scene was A+ man-candy) but I think that was relatively minor in terms of story.  

Edited March 2, 2017 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Jensen and Jared themselves once said Gamble thinks she owns Sam and Edlund (that was at a time he was still with the show) owns Dean. That statement made complete sense to me. 

The scene that stands out most to me from Season 6.A is that hooker who forgets payment because Soulless!Sam was so good. Like that summarizes the first half of the Season. Then the second half was kind of all over the place. Ultimately the plot turned out to be about Cas and Crowley working behind the scenes. We just didn`t see it till the very end. I do believe this half has the time-travel ep? With Dean getting a Western shoot-out moment? I liked that scene. And Cas got the best ep of the Season.

Season 7 to me is just there. I can`t say it was a Sam-Season or anything because I thought both brothers were equally boring in it. 

[Myrelle]

I thought 7 was more of a Sam/Bobby season, tbh.  And I think Gamble liked any and every character who wasn't Dean. Sam had the hallucifernations in 7. I think. It's hard to remember because 6 and 7 especially are so hazy to me and just seem so clumped together. I very rarely re-watch anything from 6-8, but at least I can differentiate 8 from 7 and 6 in my memory, episode-wise.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[Diane]

41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I disagree, I think she was very interested in Dean, just not in a way that you were interested in. Personally, I love S6 and S7 because, IMO, they were all about Dean. What happens if you take everything away from Dean, who does he become? I understand you don't care for that kind of thing, and it's valid, but labeling Gamble as a Dean-hater isn't necessarily true, IMO.

I agree, it was all about how much can we take away and see if Dean can still survive. But then season 7 is one of my favorite and obviously YMMV.

[Wayward Son]

I find it interesting to hear others thoughts on Sera Gamble. 

In my opinion though Sera Gamble loved both Sam and Dean and only Sam and Dean. She was possibly the biggest bi!bro and brother only writer this show has ever had. It was Sera Gamble  who initially described Supernatural as "the epic love story of Sam and Dean". IMO that quote says all there is to say about Sera's perception of the show and what it was meant to be. 

I also think her view of the show shines through the two seasons she served as show runner. Season 6 was used to explore the personal (through the story of Sam and dean) and wide scale (through the largely off screen heavenly civil war) ramifications of the apocalypse being averted at the end of season 5. Once that was wrapped up she used season seven to begin stripping back the show to match the brother!only vision she aspired to. This is shown in the fact that she killed off Bobby and Castiel, she limited their other contacts and even took the impala out of commission. Her lack of care for the side characters also shows in the poorly crafted storylines given to Cas and Bobby especially Cas. 

15 hours ago, SueB said:

 I haven't heard any stories about why Sera Gamble left but it was after only two years (they knew Carver was coming in by January of her second year).  

How much this had an impact on her departure I can't say, but as someone in the fandom at the time I remember there was a MASSIVE backlash from Castiel fans who felt shortchanged by the terrible way she wrote him out of the show. Had she had her way he'd have died and stayed that way at the beginning of Hello, Cruel World, which meant she turned him into a villain and killed him off with no closure or redemption. Furthermore, as I touched on above, she ignored the wishes of not just the Cas fans but the majority of fandom to focus on the small hardcore brother only fans. There were many others such as Bobby fans and those who generally like seeing the brothers interact with others that disliked her seasons especially seven.I also think this lack of interest in others is reflected by the fact that Misha later revealed that the only reason we got The Man Who Would Be King (the Cas centric episode that was the only one to delve into his motivation) was because Ben Edlund fought hard for it. 

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Some have written that J2 are just 'actors' and must say the lines given to them.  I'm thinking "What show have YOU been watching?"  As the years go by, the more the boys are contributing to dialog and little scene adds.  Yes, there are times that when push comes to shove, they DON'T get their way (the infamous Charlie death argument, with reports Jensen gave an earful to Singer to change his/Carver's mind and was unsuccessful). Jensen also wanted more Purgatory and Demon Dean time, Jared always liked Sam with special abilities.  These things didn't materialize and the guys roll with that. But they have a shit-ton more power than most leads -- even without being named exec producers.  

I don't think anyone said "they're just actors". What was said was that, as shown through the Charlie example you reference and the others mentioned by Catrox, when it comes down to it the writers wishes are the most important when it comes to storyline direction. J2 and possibly M2 may get some input and chances to revise things, but ultimately it is the writers job to decide where the show goes. 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think at that point she was already on her way out and Carver had already finalized the deal to come onboard and take over. If Gamble had stayed on, I think Season 7 wouldn`t have ended the way it did. 

I think we began to see the affects of Carver from the born again identity on. There was a distinct tonal change such as the return of Cas, increased usage of secondary characters and a return to the Angel / demon storylines she had moved  away from. 

ETA: What I will say though is while it was not a vision I agreed with I can respect Sera for the fact she at least had a vision. I don't think Carver did, not really. I think he went the opposite  route of Sera and tried to fit in episodes / scenes that would appeal to all sections of the shows fandom. This only served to make a haphazard and inconsistent overall narrative imo.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wayward Son