All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Diane]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

*Puts on Katherine Janeway's thinking cap.*

SHOW FACTS:-
- Getting John and Mary together was a big deal to the angels.  Cupid said they 'couldn't stand each other' until after the angels got them together and then they were 'perfect'.
- Dean said to Mary 'March 23, 1972, you walked out of a movie theater "Slaughterhouse-Five." You loved it, and you bumped into a big Marine and you knocked him flat on his ass. You were embarrassed, you laughedit off, he said you could make it up to him with a cup of coffee. So you went to, uh, Mulroney's and you talked and he was cute and he knew the words to every Zepplin song, so when he asked for your number you gave it to him, even though you knew your dad would be pissed. That was the night that you met... " "John Winchester".
- Monday, April 30, 1973, Dean arrives in Lawrence Kansas and meets John Winchester and Mary Campbell. The next day, May 1st, Dean figures out YED is there and get the gun after telling Samuel that he's going to Liddy Walsh's house on the May 2nd.
- The next day May 2nd, while cleaning guns, Mary asks Samuel where Dean went and he mentions the Walsh's.  Mary says she's a friend and insists on going over to her house.  The actual journal entry:

What we saw Azazel making his 'pitch' and then being interrupted.  Azazel smokes out.  Dean and Mary are talking about how Azazel said he liked her when Azazel!Samuel leaves the house saying 'Liddy a strong kid, she'll be fine.' Later, taking to Azazel!Samuel (not knowing Samuel has been possessed), Dean confesses the time travel and says that he thinks that the run-in at the Walsh house is when Azazel catch's Mary's scent. When talking about 'why Mary' he says "because they're strong, they're pure. They eat their Wheaties. My own little Master race. They're ideal breeders." He also said "So far, she's my favorite."
- Back in 2008, Cas tells Dean, "Destiny can't be changed, Dean. All roads lead to the same destination." And Cas comes clean essentially admitting they were trying to find out Azazel's endgame (which Azazel specifically said he wasn't going to tell Dean, or the 'angel's on his shoulder').  And then clarifies that what he needs to stop is the dangerous road Sam is on.

 HOW TO RECONCILE ALL OF THIS (the SueB theory):

1) ISSUE: Dean's story suggests love at the first meeting.  Cupid said it was difficult.
THEORY: We've seen plenty of evidence that Angels can wipe memories. I'd say that they nudged Mary and John together and they hated each other so they wiped BOTH of their memories and arranged a meet/cute outside the movie theater. Maybe they had to try a couple of times before they got the right circumstances. In this case, a cupid literally pushes Mary into John, knocking him down. The cupid then leaves the mark on their hearts and they fall for each other.

2) ISSUE: If Dean had not gone back in time, would Mary have wound up at Liddy's Walsh's?
THEORY:  I think the answer is "NO." Dean's attempt to prevent the past is precisely what caused it to happen.  This is employing the temporal mechanics theories ala Star Trek Voyager (see episode "Parallax"):

Supporting rationale: The writers ha"ve referenced Star Trek and time travel more than once.  I think they accept the general temporal mechanics theory stated above. In addition to the Back to the Future equivalent theories.

2a) ISSUE: But the only reason Dean MENTIONED Liddy Walsh was because of John's journal.
THEORY: True.  But if you look at the actual journal entry, Azazel didn't MAKE the deal with Liddy. Instead, the journal indicates Liddy was gutted.  That tracks with Azazel!Samuel being the last to be alone with Liddy.  He simply gutted her while Dean and Mary were talking. Which would be the logical outcome of being interrupted.  Otherwise he would have sealed the deal with Liddy or simply left.  No reason to kill her if she refused.  So, in this case the 'effect' was Liddy being gutted near a recent YED spotting and John recording it in his journal. The "cause" was the interruption by Samuel, Mary and Dean. 

2b) ISSUE: Wait... but how did the Angel's know to send Dean to the past to cause the result they wanted?
THEORY: Well, they WANTED Sam to be Lucifer's vessel and Dean to be the Righteous Man.  So, after ensuring that they were born, after Dean became the Righteous Man, they sent Dean to the past to make sure Azazel spotted Mary. Again, effect (Mary's death and subsequent events) preceded cause (the Angel's sending Dean back to trigger Azazel spotting Mary).

3) ISSUE: But WHY Mary?
THEORY: Azazel said it himself - she was special "strong, pure, good breeder".  And he sniffed Dean to see whether he was a special kid.  The answer is clear IMO, Azazel knew Mary was special the moment he saw her because of her bloodline.  I'm going to guess that he searched out many people but could smell a bloodline that could support an archangel.  Maybe the others could support Angels, but when he smelt Mary -- well, she had the "good stuff".  She had the bloodline strength for an archangel.  And so did John.  So... voila, she was ALWAYS going to catch Azazel's attention if they got into the same room. Sending Dean back into the past at the right moment put Dean on the YED trail and gave Azazel the opportunity to get leverage over Mary. Hence, she made the deal.

4) ISSUE: Does this mean it's Dean's fault?
THEORY: Oh Hell no.  The Angels manipulated it.  Just like Michael said.  They nudged things to go in their direction IN THIS CASE.  Because it wasn't enough to get two children with archangel bloodlines, they had to get one to be prepped to be a vessel for Lucifer and one to be prepped to be a vessel for Michael. Please note: I think it was angels at the Zachariah and higher level making these things work.  Cas didn't know.  He genuinely thought Dean was going back to find out Azazel's endgame and to get Dean to learn that Sam was tainted by Azazel.  Which leads to Dean finding out Sam is using his psychic powers again.  And the Angels WANTED the tension to build between the brothers.

5) ADDITIONAL FUN FACTS: The deal with Mary was made exactly 10 years before she gave birth. Sam was born May 2nd, 1983.  Precisely 10 years after Azazel made the deal with Mary.  And no, I don't think that's coincidence.  I think that was part of the effects of the deal.

So back to the question:

My answer is NO. We had ONE story line where the Angels manipulated a set of archangel-class vessels who were brothers.  They put manuevered Dean to the past which put Mary into the same room as Azazel.  This allowed them to manipulate Azazel into selecting Sam, which is what the Angels wanted all along. 

*goes in search of aspirin because temporal paradoxes give EVERYONE a headache, not just Captain Janeway*

Wow, that was a great work! 

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

He also killed the other Stynes there. And he didn`t really know them. He could infer from the situation present or not. So IMO they all needed to get the benefit of the doubt or none. 

Eldon Styne -- Dean knew who he was and what he had done.  Reasonable to understand why Dean killed him, possibly even justifiable.

Roscoe -- we didn't see this kill.  We do know he was stabbed in the back; did Dean kill him before, during, or after a fight?  No idea.  Should Roscoe have gotten the benefit of the doubt?  Possible.  But also possible that he was killed during a fight.  (Not probable, possible.)

Cyrus -- He was not an adult, so in my mind, that makes him a kid.  Regardless, Dean knew nothing about him.  He could have been kidnapped.  He could have been under a spell.  We have info about him that Dean did not have.  But even if Dean knew those things, Original Recipe Dean does not kill humans that could, at some future point, be a danger to the Winchesters or the world.  Only Mark of Cain Dean does that.

Take Croatoan, for example.  Dean considered killing the guy that Dean suspected had been infected.  But he doesn't.  Why?  Because Dean doesn't kill if he's not absolutely certain that a person has to die.  Mark of Cain Dean kills almost indiscriminately.  Without remorse.  Without hesitation.  

But, as always, mileage varies.

[Aeryn13]

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Mark of Cain Dean kills almost indiscriminately.  Without remorse.  Without hesitation.  

I don`t think he killed all that many. As a demon apparently he only killed demons and that one guy who got actually lucky because it broke his deal and he didn`t go to hell over it. Randy and the rapists. Who we saw attacking him. Stupid if you pick a fight with someone who turns out to be much stronger than you. And the revenge quest against the Stynes.

Overall, for making such a big thing over the Mark, Dean didn`t do too much damage with it. I know Cain did it much, much longer but they played it as if he did the most damage in the early years.

That`s why all the suspense show was trying to buld via the Mark of Cain and Dean going dark from it somewhat fell flat. I remember Sam and Cas getting their freak-out on when MOC!Dean slammed someone`s head on the bar. And in episodes not too far apart Sam (and probably Cas too) did the very same thing. They put in a lot of dialogue how things were oh so dire but onscreen I never saw it all that much.

I realize you can`t take a lead character who is supposed to be a good guy too far over the line but an extreme PG 0 version of a dark arc doesn`t work for me either. This thing with Cyrus Styne was one moment where I at least could see some legitimacy towards the dark side fretting. Even though I gotta admit in the end I was still "eh" about it. Dean came upon them as they were just basically trying to burn down his home. If someone had a good enough lawyer, they could get away with killing the perpetrators in such a situation in real life. Who would even know if someone begged for their life? And if it was genuine or just a ploy? I just watch too many shows where comparatively this just pings a low 3 on the "evol" scale if that went up to 12.    

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think he killed all that many.

More than Dean without the Mark killed.  

 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I just watch too many shows where comparatively this just pings a low 3 on the "evol" scale if that went up to 12.    

Compared to Arrow, for example, Dean is practically a Boy Scout, even with the Mark.  Oliver killed a whole bunch of people.  But that's a completely different show with a completely different ethos.  In the SPN universe, the good guys don't kill humans.  Not if they have other options.  MoC Dean had other options -- with the guys in #thinman, with Claire's attackers, with Cyrus Styne.  

I don't need Dean to be a serial killer with dozens of victims to know that the Mark of Cain was bad and needed to be removed.

[catrox14]

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Mark of Cain Dean kills almost indiscriminately.  Without remorse.  Without hesitation.

Demon!Dean and MoC!Dean did not kill indiscriminately or even almost indiscriminately. He was certainly pushed by the Mark to be overly brutal and it made him WANT to kill but he didn't kill everyone in his path when he could have despite the bloodlust. So either it wasn't pushing him that hard OR he had some control over it since he clearly made some choices as to whom he killed.

These are all the people Demon!Dean and MoC!Dean had in his sights as potential or actual murders:

Pre-demon!Dean-MoC!Dean:

--Thinman - killed judge, jury executioner style right after he got the Mark. ( A sign that maybe something was wrong)
-- Abaddon - probably the most egregiously brutal kill. Still a demon and a Knight of Hell, though. His goal was to kill her and her alone. He didn't seem to have a need to direct that to anyone else.
-- Beheaded a vampire in a brutal fashion (who cares it's a fucking vampire)
--Gadreel: tried to kill him when he thought Gadreel was still an enemy.
--Metatron: tried to kill him but couldn't. The Mark was killing Dean if he didn't kill. Yet he didn't rush out to kill anyone but Metatron. 

Demon!Dean:
--Mindy: stalked her, chose to not kill her 
--Lester : killed him instead of Mindy when he could have killed them both.
--Demon chum: killed (demons so no one cares that he killed them)
--Anne Marie's ex: beat the crap out of him, but didn't kill him.
--Bouncer in the bar: could have killed him, chose to walk away
--Sam: hunted Sam and had the chance to kill him but was captured. Not sure if he would have really gone through with it.
--Cole: beat the crap out of Cole and put the FB to Cole's throat but didn't kill him. Choice made before Sam captured Dean.

Post-demon!Dean-MoC!Dean

--Cole: beat the crap out of him and had his gun trained on Cole but didn't kill him and handed his gun to Cole to use on him if so desired.
--Randy and the Rapists: Self defense with Dean at the disadvantage of 5 on 1. They attacked him first. There was no evidence that he was spoiling for a fight in that situation, he was backing out of the room and was jumped from behind. He unleashed on them AFTER the boss rapist dude kicked Dean in the head.
--Metatron: He could have killed Metatron but he didn't. He tortured him until Cas and Sam stopped him. Not sure how much the Mark influenced his beatdown but the beatdown did influence Dean IMO.
--Hippie Couple with Claire: Could have killed them both after they jumped him. Instead he put the  ax through the bench and walked away.
--Charlie: Beat the crap out of Dark Charlie, stopped short of killing her either because he stopped himself or Sam's intervention. It's never been clear to me how he got out of that fog.
--Cain: killed Cain for obvious reasons. Did not seem to overboard with stabbing him repeatedly
--Cops that arrested Dean in the Prisoner:  Did not kill either of them.
--Cas: Spared Cas after beating the crap out of him and taking his angel blade. He could have run him through with his angel blade and he opted to not do that and gave him a warning. 
--Victim of the vampire nest: Didn't kill her, despite being on a high from killing 3 vampires

There maybe a couple of more but I can't recall right at the moment.

Now we get to the Stynes and Dean killing Cyrus:

This is what Dean knew and witnessed WRT to the Stynes before he encountered Cyrus, Eldon and the other brother ransacking his home:

--Stynes were stalking and trying to kill Charlie to get the BoTD.
--Eldon literally scooped out a young woman's eyeballs before killing her. They knew this because it was a case.
--Jacob and another Styne attacked Dean at the Gas n Sip - Dean saved himself and got away but they tracked him to the cabin. They attacked Dean, Sam and Charlie and Sam kills Jacob.

--Eldon and others attacked Dean in the alley behind the pizza place. Dean saves himself and captures Eldon, and takes him back to the bunker to interrogate.
--Sees that Eldon ripped his own arm off to escape the bunker
--Eldon and the brother find Charlie and brutally stab her to death, leaving her body in the bathtub for Dean and Sam to find.

-- Dean goes after the Stynes but is asphyxiated with a plastic bag, tied down on table in the kill room, is being prepped to have his body parts harvested before being murdered himself. Dean is told what they plan to do with him which what they did with every other victim.

Dean escapes, kills them all and gets back to the bunker only to find his home has been  invaded and is being ransacked by Eldon and 2 other people he doesn't know. They went after the BoTD and to get vengeance for  Dean and Sam killing Jacob. But they didn't yet know Dean killed the rest of their family.

So to me given everything Dean has already witnessed and experienced himself at the hands of the Stynes, combined with Cyrus hearing Dean admit to killing the rest of his family, and with Cyrus witnessing Dean kill his brothers, what reason would Dean have for believing or trusting Cyrus' pleadings and protestations that he was different and could be trusted?  Why would he trust that Cyrus wouldn't at some point try to come after him and Sam and anyone else they know?

Edited November 3, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

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Compared to Arrow, for example, Dean is practically a Boy Scout, even with the Mark.  Oliver killed a whole bunch of people.

Heh, don`t know what it says about me that in Season 2 when Oliver vowed never to kill again, I was going "damnit, sanitized again". Ironically, I`d say Barry over on the Flash killed more people by timeline manipulation, just not with his own hands. But I was thinking more of the vampire shows. Dean in the deepest throws of the MOC would still have been one of the nicest and most upstanding citizens around.   

I know those shows have all different vibes but IF a writer tackles a dark arc for a character, it either works or it doesn`t. This one was so-so. Kinda like Sam`s supposed dark arc in Seasons 3 and 4. I found that they ramped up all the stuff about his personality I didn`t like in Season 4 but that doesn`t mean I legit thought he was ever really going dark at any point. With Dean, I don`t know, they didn`t commit to it either. Both were beige arcs.      

Quote

I don't need Dean to be a serial killer with dozens of victims to know that the Mark of Cain was bad and needed to be removed.

It`s not that I necessarily needed to see him wade through pools of blood but I found the effects of the Mark overall pretty tame so I didn`t really see what was sooo bad about it that it needed to be removed right this instant. If they made it even tamer, I would have laughed at the dramatics. They were lucky Amara was a devout Dean-girl and kinda, sorta turn out to be nice in the end. If she had been this great big evil Death chicken-littled about, they would have been in deep guano. And all to end another beige arc.   

Edited November 3, 2016 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s not that I necessarily needed to see him wade through pools of blood but I found the effects of the Mark overall pretty tame so I didn`t really see what was sooo bad about it that it needed to be removed right this instant.

I felt the same watching S10.  Most of the time I didn't understand the urgency.  Yeah, the MOC needed to be removed, but not as desperately as Cas and Sam made it seem.  Same with Rowena and her 'we have to do the spell right now!' bit.  

[Aeryn13]

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 Same with Rowena and her 'we have to do the spell right now!' bit. 

You mean last Season with pseudo-opening the cage? Or the spell for the Mark removal?

I could understand why Rowena said it about the cage. She had a hidden agenda, fangirled Lucifer and wanted him free at this point. Failed warding my ass. Why everyone else fell for it was a mystery to me, though.   

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I felt the same watching S10.  Most of the time I didn't understand the urgency.  Yeah, the MOC needed to be removed, but not as desperately as Cas and Sam made it seem.  Same with Rowena and her 'we have to do the spell right now!' bit.  

And in the end, Dean was actually protecting ALL of humanity from the Darkness. That's the biggest WTF for me. He held back the Darkness, suffered and died for it and was resurrected as a demon, cured from that and still continued to protect humanity, even if he didn't know it. And once Dean knew what the Mark was for, he was willing to keep it and be shot into the ether. IMO that made Dean a true Anti-Hero but it's never acknowledged as such and then Dean gets blamed (along with Sam) for setting the Darkness free. Was that an intentionally ironic outcome or just terrible plotting?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean gets blamed (along with Sam) for setting the Darkness free. Was that an intentionally ironic outcome or just terrible plotting?

Yeah, not to mention that The Darkness and her brother (God) made up!  Which is a good thing!  Which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't set her free!

I don't know if I could call it ironic, but I'm not quite willing to go with terrible plotting either.  (Although I'm leaning that way.)

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You mean last Season with pseudo-opening the cage? Or the spell for the Mark removal?

I was thinking of the spell for the Mark removal when I wrote it, but works for the cage opening too.  But you're right - I hadn't taken into account her hidden agenda with the cage.  Even still with the hidden agenda, there was no reason to rush!rush!rush!.  Except to maybe fluster Sam into making a mistake - which worked.  I mean, Lucifer wasn't going anywhere.  

Edited November 3, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
good thing.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, not to mention that The Darkness and her brother (God) made up!  Which is a good thing!  Which wouldn't have happened if they hadn't set her free!

Well, I was just thinking about the end of s10 and the Mark of Cain arc specifically.  What annoys me is that it wasn't actually a bad thing that Dean had the Mark except for him and those he killed. And the reconcilation may or may not have been facilitated by Dean and Sam, given the pigeon lady.  I have a headache thinking about this.  LOL

Man, I need to write some Mark of Cain fix it fics.

Edited November 3, 2016 by catrox14
because an entire sentence didn't make any sense at all

[AwesomO4000]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO that made Dean a true Anti-Hero but it's never acknowledged as such and then Dean gets blamed (along with Sam) for setting the Darkness free.

I don't remember Dean getting blamed all that much... there was a sort of mention in the beginning of the season, but by the middle and definitely the end of season 11, we had both Lucifer and God himself saying that it was Sam's fault. And in case we missed that, we had Lady ProbablyPeeHerPantsIfSheTriedToDoWhatDeanAndSamDoOnADailyBasis point it out again. It was pretty much the same pattern as season 4... Dean starts it off - back then it was making the deal, here it was taking on the mark - but the plot shifts everything over to Sam by the end when the apocalypse gets started. Bonus point if a bunch of people get killed during Sam's part (which happened both times) just to make sure we know that Sam was really the one who screwed up.

It's one of the reasons I think that Charlie was killed. I don't think the writers had the guts to just have Dean "go dark" and kill a bunch of people (which is what I meant when I mentioned elsewhere that Charlie's death gave Dean a reason to fall off the rails) or be the reason a bunch of people died, but they seem to think it's fine if they have Sam be the cause.

As for Dean being an Anti-Hero in season 10/11... I've been arguing along those lines for a while now. Dean does something fairly iffy to save Sam - facilitating Gadreel and then lying about it - and he gets to be mostly heroic, not to mention Gadreel himself turns out to be important in helping. And even though it wasn't acknowledged as such, it was pretty much presented that way in my opinion. Sam does something very similar - does something fairly iffy to save Dean and lies about it - and an apocalypse happens with a heavy body count.

I'm reminded of that post a ways back comparing the situations to Dean vs Sam buying a lottery ticket. I especially liked the version where Sam does win, but when he shows up to get the winnings, it turns out to be a lie/trick, and the bad guys taunt him for it. I'd add and then the bad guys kill a bunch of people because of something Sam did.

For me, I'm kind of glad Dean didn't get a bunch of recognition there at the end of season 10, because it's already fairly lopsided in Dean's favor already that what he does seems to have way less bad consequences than what Sam does, even if it's fairly similar. Not even killing Death had any concrete bad consequences that we saw. Though at least it also didn't turn out to be  good thing like I worried it would. I was almost sure that somehow killing Death would lead to a way to stop the Darkness. That really would have annoyed me.

[Bessie]

You know what I found especially amusing? Sam was held responsible for letting out the darkness, yet she was zeroed in on Dean.

So beyond my bafflement at what, exactly, was going on between Dean and amara, I never understood why she didn't feel connected to Sam. He was the one who freed her. The whole storyline was perplexing, to me. I'm glad it's over. 

[Diane]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 Lady ProbablyPeeHerPantsIfSheTriedToDoWhatDeanAndSamDoOnADailyBasis 

Alright you win that is too funny.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Dean being an Anti-Hero in season 10/11... I've been arguing along those lines for a while now. Dean does something fairly iffy to save Sam - facilitating Gadreel and then lying about it - and he gets to be mostly heroic, not to mention Gadreel himself turns out to be important in helping. And even though it wasn't acknowledged as such, it was pretty much presented that way in my opinion. Sam does something very similar - does something fairly iffy to save Dean and lies about it - and an apocalypse happens with a heavy body count.

I didn't mention Sam in Sam v Dean wank way just more about the irony of Dean's plight.

I agree Dean's actions can be seen as heroic but for me, no other character, not even Guck himself, acknowledges that it was actually a heroic act in the end, it feels a little hollow to me. Thinking back to Sam jumping in the pit, that was readily and widely acknowledged as a heroic/redemptive act and others around him spoke of his sacrifice/redemption both before and after the sacrifice.

Or course, they couldn't do that with the MoC and the Darkness because it wasn't ever set up to be a heroic thing IMO not even by the end of it. Dean became Killy McMurderson and even killing bad guys was framed as being a bad thing that Dean was doing (see the debate over Cyrus). 

I just can't remember anyone, not Sam, not Cas, not Crowley, not Amara, not even Guck framed Dean's actions as being heroic. At the end Guck said the Earth was in good hands with the Winchesters. Dean got a thank you for helping Chuck and Amara reconcile but that thank you (Mary) is turning out be causing Dean MORE pain.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Bessie said:

You know what I found especially amusing? Sam was held responsible for letting out the darkness, yet she was zeroed in on Dean.

So beyond my bafflement at what, exactly, was going on between Dean and amara, I never understood why she didn't feel connected to Sam. He was the one who freed her. The whole storyline was perplexing, to me. I'm glad it's ove

In reality, Rowena was the one that removed the Mark. No one else. I'm not being snarky. She should have been Amara's connection based on who really freed her. I've been saying that since the night 11.01 aired. LOL 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking back to Sam jumping in the pit, that was readily and widely acknowledged as a heroic/redemptive act and others around him spoke of his sacrifice/redemption both before and after the sacrifice.

I honestly don't remember this being acknowledged before the fact.  But then, it maybe just because of all the alcohol I had to consume to get through S8 and S9.  :)  As for after the fact...didn't it this acknowledgement actually happen over several seasons?  Point is, I don't recall it all being right at the beginning of S6.  So...I don't know...maybe since this is only the 4th episode after Guck and Amara reconciled, that acknowledgement of what Dean accomplished is still to come?  I think it would be nice if it was mentioned now and then.

As for before the fact: I don't think it needed to be explicitly stated by Sam, Cas, Crowley, Rowena, or Guck himself that Dean taking on the soul bomb and going to face Amara alone was heroic.  

[ahrtee]

Shouldn't all this Sam/Dean is always wrong/right/blamed/forgiven be in the bitterness thread?  

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Shouldn't all this Sam/Dean is always wrong/right/blamed/forgiven be in the bitterness thread?  

It's not wank or bitterness to state  that canonically both Dean and Sam were held responsible (blamed) for the Darkness being released. It's not wank to say that canonically Sam's sacrifice in s5 is acknowledged as such by other characters.  IMO comparing a story arcs =/=  wank.  I didn't say the writers like Dean or Sam better.   I couldn't address the meandering nature of Dean's MoC arc and it's squirrelly resolution without including the Darkness being released.  I'm saying what I see as shortcomings and the irony in the resolution of the Mark of Cain story arc for Dean.  Respectfully, I don't think this conversation falls into bitterness or Sam vs Dean. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I honestly don't remember this being acknowledged before the fact.  

I was talking about S5 when Sam jumped into the pit as Lucifer's vessel. 

 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As for before the fact: I don't think it needed to be explicitly stated by Sam, Cas, Crowley, Rowena, or Guck himself that Dean taking on the soul bomb and going to face Amara alone was heroic.  

Whilst there is no question that Dean being the soul bomb was heroic and was acknowledged as such on screen,  I wasn't talking about the soul bomb. I was talking about Dean carrying the Mark of Cain for 2 seasons which held the Darkness at bay being a heroic act that I don't think has been acknowledged as such

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not wank or bitterness to state  that canonically both Dean and Sam were held responsible (blamed) for the Darkness being released. It's not wank to say that canonically Sam's sacrifice in s5 is acknowledged as such by other characters.  IMO comparing a story arcs =/=  wank.  I didn't say the writers like Dean or Sam better.   I couldn't address the meandering nature of Dean's MoC arc and it's squirrelly resolution without including the Darkness being released.  I'm saying what I see as shortcomings and the irony in the resolution of the Mark of Cain story arc for Dean.  Respectfully, I don't think this conversation falls into bitterness or Sam vs Dean. 

Respectfully, I'm seeing a number of posts from different people here expressing dismay about how Dean and Sam have been treated differently over several seasons, not just the darkness/MoC storylines.  

I'm not calling anything here wank or saying that you shouldn't think it (or even discuss it with anyone who wants to continue the conversation), just *suggesting* that that particular conversation might be more appropriate in the bitterness thread, per the rules set up by the mods.  YMMV.

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I'm not calling anything here wank or saying that you shouldn't think it (or even discuss it with anyone who wants to continue the conversation), just *suggesting* that that particular conversation might be more appropriate in the bitterness thread, per the rules set up by the mods.  YMMV.

Not every discussion about Sam and Dean's character arcs are Sam v Dean. That's what I was trying to say. I understood what you were saying, but I honestly don't think the discussion we were having broke those rules.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was talking about S5 when Sam jumped into the pit as Lucifer's vessel. 

Yeah, that's what I meant too.  Since Sam didn't actually jump in the pit until the last episode of S5, l just don't remember it being acknowledged as some big sacrifice/redemptive act beforehand.  But like I said, there's a lot I don't remember lately...

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was talking about Dean carrying the Mark of Cain for 2 seasons which held the Darkness at bay being a heroic act that I don't think has been acknowledged as such

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood then.    

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, that's what I meant too.  Since Sam didn't actually jump in the pit until the last episode of S5, l just don't remember it being acknowledged as some big sacrifice/redemptive act beforehand.  But like I said, there's a lot I don't remember lately...

Heh, I remember it being heralded by the other other characters as a stupid idea and sure to fail...which I didn't disagree with either. ;)

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, I remember it being heralded by the other other characters as a stupid idea and sure to fail...which I didn't disagree with either. ;)

That was absolutely the case UNTIL it was reversed at the end of Two Minutes to Midnight and carried on in Swan Song.

Dean had been in opposition right along with Bobby, then suddenly, Bobby reverses his opposition after having witnessed Sam save a bunch of people (see the quote below). Given that Bobby has been the Wise One, "Surrogate Father Knows Best" and his opinion is highly valued and generally touted as the 'correct' opinion, this served to rewrite the narrative heading into Swan Song that Sam's choice is now to  be considered good, right, smart, and brave and Dean's continued opposition is now re-framed as being wrong and selfish.   (Just one of the many issues I have with Swan Song)

Quote

DEAN But, I mean, of course he'd say that. He works for Lucifer.

BOBBY Against his will, I thought he said.

DEAN Well, I'd say, take his sob story with a fat grain of salt. I mean, he is Death.

BOBBY Exactly. He's Death. Think of the kind of bird's-eye view.

DEAN Seriously?

BOBBY I'm just saying --

DEAN well, don't. I mean, what happened to you being against this?

BOBBY Look, I'm not saying Sam ain't an ass-full of character defects. But...

DEAN But what?

BOBBY Back at Niveus? I watched that kid pull one civilian out after another. Must have saved 10 people. Never stopped. Never slowed down. We're hard on him, Dean. We've always been. But in the meantime... He's been running into burning buildings since he was, what, 12?

DEAN Pretty much.

BOBBY Look, Sam's got a...Darkness in him. I'm not saying he don't. But he's got a hell of a lot of good in him, too.

DEAN I know.

BOBBY Then you know Sam will beat the devil...Or die trying. That's the best we could ask for. So I got to ask, Dean. What exactly are you afraid of? Losing? Or losing your brother?

[DittyDotDot]

Well, sure, Bobby gave Dean the speech when it looked like the only plan on the table and they needed to get Dean to play ball. But it was a hail Mary, and no one really believed it would work. Cass and Bobby both said so after Sam failed to immediately take control and Lucifer took off with Sam hidden away. Which is pretty much the same way the lead up to Dean being the bomb ::snort::. There was a plan, but no one expected the plan to actually work and went to a bar for their last drink. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think they had so much doubt in the bomb plan. After all, Dean merely had to go there and then press two fingers together. That is not really difficult. And they still had good enough reason to believe Amara wouldn`t kill him on sight. So unless they had no faith in the power-level of the bomb itself, it was a pretty simple man. 

With Sam, it hinged on him being so super-strong as to neatly overpower an archangel with his mere will. And IMO Bobby`s speech in the penultimate episode was supposed to express that, that Sam was just the man for the job.. Still laughing over "we`re hard on him". Bobby? You basically pull out the baby-talk with Sam compared to how you relate to Dean sometimes. Granted, then Bobby and Cas immediately waffled when it didn`t happen right away but at least for Bobby that is pretty in character. He is/was a waffler.     

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This is not Dean v. Sam, so I'm going to leave it here.  If this should go to the Bitterness thread, please let me know and I'll move it!  Thanks!

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was talking about Dean carrying the Mark of Cain for 2 seasons which held the Darkness at bay being a heroic act that I don't think has been acknowledged as such

I've been thinking about this part some more. (LOL!  Probably not a good thing.  I shouldn't overtax my brain like that.  ;)  )  Anyway, I don't think Dean carrying the Mark of Cain was really a heroic act.  I think the Reason that he took it on in the first place (to kill Abaddon) was heroic.  But then carrying it - and 'holding the Darkness at bay'* - was just a consequence (albeit a bad consequence) of having taken it on in the first place.  I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense.  It was a lot clearer in my head than when I try to explain it in writing.  

*I'm not sure that Dean was the only one 'holding back The Darkness' at first.  Cain still had The Mark even after he gave it to Dean.  The show never explained what that meant, but it seems to me that should make them co-holders, or whatever, until after Cain was killed.  Not that it still wasn't a difficult task, just that it wasn't all on him at first.  

[catrox14]

I am so annoyed!!! I had a long ass reply to the MoC thing and my computer froze it didn't save in PTV. But basically I have really well thought out reason why Lucifer, Cain and Dean were each the sole Lock and Key in their time of being said Lock and Key.  I could just cry right now.    ARGGHHHHH...

Edited November 4, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I've had that happen.  It sucks.  It really does.  Ugh.

[MysteryGuest]

On November 3, 2016 at 8:42 PM, catrox14 said:

She should have been Amara's connection based on who really freed her. I've been saying that since the night 11.01 aired. LOL 

I think it was simply a matter of Dean having the Mark of Cain, and when he lost it, Amara was freed.  The Mark was the connection, not how it was removed, or who was responsible for removing it.  Dean was marked and so was Amara.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think it was simply a matter of Dean having the Mark of Cain, and when he lost it, Amara was freed.  The Mark was the connection, not how it was removed, or who was responsible for removing it.  Dean was marked and so was Amara.

I was referring to the below.  Upon re-reading that I forgot that Dean thinks Sam said the spell!  Did anyone ever tell Dean differently?

I'm saying that if Amara should be thanking anyone and feeling indebted to the person who freed her, it technically was Rowena.  Rowena said the spell, not Sam or Dean. 

Quote

 

DEAN: She was wearing a nametag. What do you think? She thanked me.

SAM: For what?

DEAN: Setting her free.

SAM: You didn't set her free. I set her free.

DEAN: It doesn't matter. I mean, yeah, you said the spell, but I had the Mark, so lock and key.

SAM: So, what, now she feels indebted to you or something?
DEAN: I don't know. She's the darkness. Does she feel anything?
SAM: And that's all she said? Thanks?
DEAN: Yeah. She was weird.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=22909

 

 

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=22909

[RulerofallIsurvey]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm saying that if Amara should be thanking anyone and feeling indebted to the person who freed her, it technically was Rowena.  Rowena said the spell, not Sam or Dean. 

I remember thinking the same thing the first time I watched that also.  But then, I just went with what @MysteryGuest said, since that seemed to be how the show went and it didn't make my head hurt thinking about it.  :)  Still...you got a good point.  

Speaking of the spell - wasn't Sam with Dean when Rowena said the spell?  So Dean should have known that Sam didn't say the spell: he was right there!

[MysteryGuest]

I think when Dean says, "you said the spell", he didn't mean it literally.  He knows that Sam was responsible for the spell, but as RulerofallIsurvey said, Sam was with Dean when the mark came off.  I don't think he needs any further clarification.  

But Amara was not all that complex, so I think for her it was simply the Mark coming off of Dean that opened the door for her, and that was enough to link her with him, right or wrong.  The Mark is the key...literally and figuratively.

Edited November 5, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Quote

And more valuable than you can imagine.

I know this is not what @catrox14 was responding to in the American Nightmare thread, but personally, this bit has always intrigued me.  Death is not the only one to say something similar about human souls.  I wish the show would delve into the mythology/inner works of the human soul a little more.  Maybe this should go in the Wish List thread?

[Hana Chan]

From the "American Nightmares" episode thread...

Quote

Doesn't anyone else look at the script and ask a question?  Even Jensen and Jared should have wondered where the hell Dean was the whole time. Doesn't anyone else look at the script and ask a question?

 I honestly don't get the rational for this handwringing about one of the very few episodes we get where Sam is the primary POV focus and Dean takes the backseat in POV and storyline for a novel change. Given that the show is supposed to be about both Sam and Dean, I would expect that Sam would get at least some POV focus paid from time to time, and there have been numerous occasions where Sam's POV at critical times for his character was all but completely eliminated. John's death is a great example - we got plenty of time for Dean to vent his anger and mourning but nearly nothing for Sam to express his grief and deal with the deeply conflicted feelings he had for the parent he'd just lost. How many times was Sam sent away (like in "The Curious Case of Dean Winchester") before the big heart to heart talks at the end? I can probably count on one hand the number of episodes that immediately come to mind where Sam's frame of mind is at the center of things.

And it wasn't as if in "American Nightmares" Dean's feelings weren't acknowledged. We're not getting all that much of a picture of exactly what Sam is really feeling about Mary leaving. He's clearly compartmentalized it and is thinking rationally (and trying to be empathetic), but if he's feeling any real emotional wounds from having the mother that he never really knew not be able to handle being around him, he's not showing it. And Dean wasn't exactly relaying Mary's regards to Sam in her text... he was just happy to get the acknowledgement that he wanted. Sam's feelings? Not a big priority at the end.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Aeryn13]

Like I said, for me it`s not about screentime but the material given in the screentime a character has. And that sucked. Namely

Quote

And it wasn't as if in "American Nightmares" Dean's feelings weren't acknowledged. 

I would have rather they weren`t addressed than this condescending bullshit where only Mary`s side is valid and Dean just needs to learn the error of his feelings and fall in line with what others want from him.

Other than that we had him being wrong and the stupid joke with the fence. God, how I hate slapstick.

The character NOT being in the episode at all would have been better for the character than this waste. Since the writer seems to think the character isn`t worht much, I`d prefer he just not write for him. Make up some line at the beginning why Dean isn`there and we`re golden. I wouldn`t actually mind.

Quote

How many times was Sam sent away (like in "The Curious Case of Dean Winchester") before the big heart to heart talks at the end? 

Wasn`t that the poker episode? Sam saved the day in that one, the main focus of the climax. And it was in one of Dean`s areas of expertise, namely poker. I only wish they`d do the reverse of such a thing.  

Edited November 6, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

It's the sloppy writing I have an issue with, not the fact that Dean didn't get to save the day.  You have a scene with Dean talking to Sam, and realizing he's in trouble.  He then gets in Baby and peels out, only to never be seen again until the next morning?  It makes no sense.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

 I honestly don't get the rational for this handwringing about one of the very few episodes we get where Sam is the primary POV focus and Dean takes the backseat in POV and storyline for a novel change. Given that the show is supposed to be about both Sam and Dean,

The majority of complaints I've read are centered on the the shitty handling of Dean's absence not because it was Sam-centric.

Edited November 6, 2016 by catrox14

[ParadoxLost]

Watching the TNT marathon. Everything about the confrontation where the Impala stops the apocalypse is still cringe worthy after all these years.

[catrox14]

As much as I hate Swan Song, it does confirm for me that I think Lucifer!Sam is Jared's best work. It makes kind of me long for a demon!Dean/Lucifer!Sam arc.

[ParadoxLost]

I think TNT was doing a themed marathon. 

The theme seemed to be episodes when Sam angst leads to a broody excuse for a holy hell when did Sam become a ripped, sex on a stick, badass montage.

Edited November 7, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Wasn`t that the poker episode? Sam saved the day in that one, the main focus of the climax. And it was in one of Dean`s areas of expertise, namely poker. I only wish they`d do the reverse of such a thing.  

They have done this, and more than once, but it usually happens in seasons you don't like much so maybe out of sight out of mind. We had Dean learn to hack security cameras from Frank... and yes Frank taught him, but that to me still implies some computer savvy (supposedly one of Sam's areas of expertise), because even if someone showed me how to do something like that, there is virtually no way I would remember and would have to consult a step by step cheat sheet for at least the first dozen or so times I did it - if complicated maybe more. And that wasn't a one off, because Dean just used the skills recently to save Sam in the second episode this season... and remembered how to do it at some point even after being away from it for a while, since there was purgatory in between.

We also had Dean just this season - same episode actually - use his knowledge of some Asian mind control technique spell he learned from the Men of Letters library to save Sam. So in that episode we had Dean use two things usually considered Sam's areas expertise - computer skills and somewhat obscure book knowledge - to save the day... so actually I think it is very much a similar situation.

In the episode where they were researching in the Campbell library, it was Dean (and Bobby) who found the obscure reference in the books - usually something Sam does - in order to get the information they needed to defeat the Phoenix (which Dean also killed). Dean even came up with the plan to get the Phoenix ashes. Interestingly that was the same episode Sam got the "dumb" edit with Bobby insulting Sam's intelligence (and Sam being clueless enough to not even notice and/or get the insult). Fortunately at least Sam had some part in helping by convincing Samuel Colt to let them have the gun and help them out. Also interestingly that was a Dabb / Loflin episode. Dean also used his smarts in the next episode to defeat Eve and save the day.

I can't think of many other "Sam" areas of expertise that they could have Dean also do that they already haven't myself... Unless it's Sam's expertise in getting tied to chairs or knocked on the head, but those things generally aren't useful in saving the day, and aren't necessarily "talents" that I would think you'd want Dean to have.

At least Dean still has stuff we haven't really seen Sam do... like Dean's cooking talents and marksmanship.

What kind of reversal using a Sam area of expertise is there you would like Dean do to save the day that they haven't already done yet? And I'm not being sarcastic. I am really curious, because I can't think of one myself - except maybe Sam's somewhat weird knowledge of bugs and other critters, but Dean doesn't seem to be all that interested in and/or is grossed out by creepy crawly critters (they aren't everyone's cup of tea.) I might have said maybe Sam's weird knowledge of plants, but Dean has been shown to have that also, since he recognized the herbs that Bella was using to keep hellhounds off her trail. Maybe languages? That's the only one left that I can think of, but I can't remember whether or not Dean might have used that one too.

[catrox14]

I've always thought of Dean as the engininerd with a side of researcher/bookworm and Sam as the lawyer/bookworm/researcher with a side of computer hacker and both worked their way around a computer pretty well. And both roles were regressed to give Bobby something more to do.

Edited November 7, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

both worked their way around a computer pretty well.

True, but what Frank taught Dean was computer hacking, so technically in Sam's wheelhouse... and Dean used that hacking to save Sam, so in my opinion it fits Aeryn's definition of the kind of reversal Aeryn was talking about.

And while poker was shown to be a Dean talent, we haven't really seen all that many Sam talents that Dean doesn't also dabble in - which was why I was curious what Aeryn had in mind.

Also I'm not so sure that I would define Sam as lawyer/bookworm/researcher since the only time they tried to show Sam using any kind of law ability, he was pretty awful at it. It would be like they showed Dean totally screwing up at fixing something.

It's also one of the reasons I wish they would show more of Sam's unusual hobbies and interests that are more unique to Sam. I kinda wish they'd bring back his interest in creepy critters... he could get a pet tarantula for example... Actually that would be fun. A dog would be impractical and Dean would object, so Sam could ironically get a big spider that Dean might be even more unhappy with because they creep him out. Hee.

[mertensia]

Well, to be fair the Book on Chinese mind control sounds like something Dean would read. I'd be giving a hard side-eye to Dean reading a volume entitled 1929 Tort Reforms or even Darwin's On the Origin of Species.  

They must laugh themselves sick every time they're channel-hopping and run across someone earnestly talking about being prepared for the Apocalypse.

[SueB]

After the experience with Magnus, I presumed Dean did some defensive reading. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What kind of reversal using a Sam area of expertise is there you would like Dean do to save the day that they haven't already done yet? 

When I say I want it done in reverse, I`m actually pretty literal in terms of scope and scale. That is, not just instances and little throwaway moments in episodes here and there. I`m talking an episode where the area of expertise is at the heart of the hunting job, the former experts at it try their hand and fail and then Dean comes in in a flashy scene saving the day, being complimented by the bad guy. We haven`t had such an episode yet. Not as far as I can remember.

Alternatively, I would like an episode that takes another area of expertise for Dean, i.e. marksmanshup would be very good, builds a case around it somehow and allows HIM to shine in it. 

Either one would be good.

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

We haven`t had such an episode yet. Not as far as I can remember.

Well for me, "Mamma Mia" was pretty close. Dean used his computer hacking ability to find most of the information needed to find Sam. Then he used his research knowledge - on something that Sam didn't know, as indicated by Sam's surprise since he was fooled by Lady McFullofHerself's claim that Mary would die and Sam had also previously not succeeded in outsmarting her enough to save himself - to defeat Lady McFullofHerself, and the bad guy came down with Castiel and told him "well played."

I'm not sure that you are going to get too much better than that, because the show hasn't given Sam all that many special skills that I can think of that would actually be that useful or flashy in solving a case. Many of Dean's - like his mechanical abilities, marksmanship, planning abilities, etc. - are much more useful in solving cases. Besides both Sam and Dean hustle pool, so for me, it's not all that surprising that Sam might also know how to hustle poker, maybe working in conjunction with Dean. Maybe not as well as Dean, but passably enough with a little of his theater ability thrown in to help out.

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Alternatively, I would like an episode that takes another area of expertise for Dean, i.e. marksmanshup would be very good, builds a case around it somehow and allows HIM to shine in it. 

I think "Frontierland" covered that pretty well, since Dean's marksmanship allowed him to outdraw and kill the Phoenix. And since the Colt was the only way to kill the Phoenix, Dean's shooting was critical for the job. And it wasn't an accident that Dean had the gun and so he just happened to get the chance. Sam purposely turned the gun over to Dean, knowing Dean would be the best one to take the shot. And much of the episode was built around getting the gun for the job, so it was critical for the plot. And Dean got a nice dramatic moment highlighting his shooting ability: high noon, duel at the OK corral style.

And as I mentioned above, Dean then got the kill again the following week when he singlehandedly outwitted Eve. So that Eve kill was almost all Dean, first using his marksmanship to kill the Phoenix for the ashes, and then using his wits to secure the kill.

[shang yiet]

I can't remember the last time Sam had a flashy saving the day scene and he's due one more than Dean who should be riding high from his flashy Amara saving the day scene. Besides, we all know speech making is Dean's area of expertise while Sam can never convince anyone of anything.