All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Aeryn13]

If one-offs count, I thought Dean had great chemistry with Hailey from Wendigo, good one with Andrea from Dead in the Water, another great one with Carmen (with you there) and what was the name of the woman in Monster Movie? They had very good chemistry also. 

 

In non-romantic terms, Officer Kathleen from the Benders, Tessa the Reaper (alala, I can`t hear the A-word for her), Charlie and yup, even Krissy the teenager. Oh, and Alaina Huffman`s Abaddon.

 

As a long-term love interest, there pretty much is only Lisa and I did like the character and thought the actress worked nicely together with Jensen. It was just no great sparks. Cassie gave me whiplash, being hot and cold, hot and cold.

 

He also did have chemistry with Bela/Lauren Cohan but I couldn`t enjoy their interactios because she was written to be superior at his expense and this will just never endear a character to me. Ever.  

 

Sam, I thought had great chemistry with Sarah and Madison. I saw entirely too little of him with Jess to make an assessment but her recent role in Agents of Shield is the first time I ever liked the actress. There was some weird disturbing chemistry with Jo in the Meg!possessed-scene but it was there IMO.

 

And he has a motherly rapport with Sheriff Jodi.

 

Amelia and him just sucked out the air of any scene they were in. And ironically, I should probably see it with Ruby2 but not all real life couples translate to onscreen sizzle. I mean some do spectacularly but not this one IMO.  

 

It`s hard to recall many examples from recent years for either brother. Especially romantic chemistry. Not many scenes that I can recall even. Season 6-ish onward, Cas probably got more action than the brothers combined.  

[Morrigan2575]

Devil's Trap (S1 finale) is on TNT right now. Dam and Dean just had a conversation about killing demons and how there was a person inside and when Dean killed Meg or her brother, he also killed the human.

I know this gets brought up all the time in fandom...why don't the boys exorcise the demons instead of killing demon/host with the knife or Angel Blade.

I'm not going there, but I think it's interesting as a character evolution of how everything Sam/Dean have been through, they've lost that bit of innocence. I can see how through all the pain, death, betrayal, the minor details in the battle get sacrificed in the greater war.

[AwesomO4000]

Devil's Trap (S1 finale) is on TNT right now. Dam and Dean just had a conversation about killing demons and how there was a person inside and when Dean killed Meg or her brother, he also killed the human.

I know this gets brought up all the time in fandom...why don't the boys exorcise the demons instead of killing demon/host with the knife or Angel Blade.

I'm not going there, but I think it's interesting as a character evolution of how everything Sam/Dean have been through, they've lost that bit of innocence. I can see how through all the pain, death, betrayal, the minor details in the battle get sacrificed in the greater war.

 

In a lot of cases, it's the problem of organization. In the early days of the show, the demons weren't so organized. Now whenever they exorcise a demon and it goes back to hell or if they start to exorcise the demon and it escapes, in either case, the escaping or exorcised demon can give information to whoever the demon works for - where Sam and Dean are, what they were doing etc. We saw the implication of this (potentially, since there is some question) in "Jus In Bello" when the one demon escaped and presumably told Lilith that Sam and Dean were at the police station.

 

And even though it isn't addressed by the show - there is the time difference problem. A demon sent back to hell is now on hell time, so even if it takes them a long time in hell time to dig themselves out for revenge, pass on information and think up a plan, etc.... it's going to be not all that much time on earth, so theoretically the demon - or its boss - could be back to confront Sam and Dean in almost no time at all.

 

There are actually a few times in the show where Sam and/or Dean address this directly with one or the other asking if they have to kill the host and the answer being that they can't take the chance of the demon giving away their location or actions. It's also the only way to get rid of - permanently - some demon foes. With the time difference mentioned above, exorcising them unfortunately means that likely sooner than later, they'll come back - like Meg did - and cause lots of problems - or worse - for Sam and Dean. So in that sense, yes, sometimes the host does now get sacrificed in the greater war. Sam and Dean learned the hard way that sometimes just exorcising the demon can mean potential terrible consequences down the road, and out of necessity they've often had to get accustomed to that kind of sacrifice of innocents.

Edited December 4, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Spoilers with Speculation" thread:

 

I think Cas' angel juice will prevent that happening. So I am left with going back to somehow the mark is passed to Sam. This show just cannot have Sam be the support person for Dean for an entire season without him going really darkside or be affected or hav e some kind of "action man" thing going on.

 

As for Sam being support person and not having an action plot for an entire season, I would argue season 7 myself. Sam did his best to support Dean in season 7, and Dean was "action guy" in terms of killing Dick Roman. I would argue that that was mainly Dean's quest, and Dick was, in my opinion, definitely more personally associated with Dean. Sam was only peripherally involved with the Dick Roman plot. Dean even did almost all the research on that one, and Sam wasn't even in the room when Dick was killed.

 

Since the show is referencing the events of s8 in s10 repeatedly and have actively tied said events of the trials to the current plot of s10, I'm hard pressed to NOT be reminded of the flipping of that story line to Sam from Dean and yes I do lament that and that is not ancient history in the show.

    It took some contrivance IMO in s8 to give Sam the trials instead of Dean. So yes I remain a skeptic and I would not put it past TPTB to contrive another scenario that flips that from Dean to Sam.

 

I'm still not convinced that the trials were supposed to be or should have been Dean's plot. Based on what I said above, Dean had pretty much been "action guy" for at least a season and a half while Sam had pretty much been passive with emo plots that didn't effect the main action. It might be considered even longer if the second half of season 6 is taken into account... Dean was the one doing "active" things in that part of the season as well - getting Sam's soul back, killing Eve, going after Castiel. Sam's reason for taking his memories back was even stated as "I'm not leaving my brother alone out here" (which to me = support).

 

And if the intention was always to abort the closing the gates of hell, that would even more say to me that that wasn't supposed to be or even should have been Dean's plot, because why would Dean stop the trials? Am I supposed to believe Carver's season 8 Sam would convince Dean not to go through with it, because I actually really like Sam and I wouldn't have believed that. To me the only way that it makes sense to me that Dean be the one to do the trials is if the show actually planned to have the gates actually be closed... and for that they would have theoretically had to get rid of demon Crowley... or all of the demons would've been up on earth, and if Dean had caused that - no thank you, no way, no how. The Dean guilt that would've ensued would've given me a headache for an entire season... Plus that would've negated the whole mark of Cain story in favor of Dean just wallowing in guilt. So to me, approximately a season and a half (at least) of Sam not having the active plot combined with that it made more sense for Sam to be convinced not to do the trials, it made more sense to me that Sam had them.

 

To me, the questions shouldn't be directed towards "Sam got Dean's plot" - since I don't really see it as I said - and more towards why was the purgatory plot not expanded? In my opinion, there was no reason that couldn't have continued in some way while Sam also had the trials. Because in my opinion, Sam should've gotten something after the trashing of his character in the first half of the season, and they didn't set it up well enough to transition into Dean taking on the trials and Sam being "support" because 1) They'd trashed Sam's character too thoroughly, so I wouldn't have believed it and 2) Dean doesn't take being "supported" at all in the best of circumstances (so Dean certainly wouldn't have accepted it in season 8), so Sam just ends up futilely trying - see season 7 and the repeat of it this season for examples. Generally when Sam tries to support Dean, Dean has none of it and Sam can't seem to be able to break through Dean's walls, and it's not going to happen, in my opinion, until Dean can learn to let down the walls himself first. And doing the trials wouldn't have done that for him based on how the trials were set up. Dean would've either died, failed, or caused havoc on earth - none of which I think would've been good for Dean's character.

 

I understand miles vary, but for me it just didn't make sense that Dean would do the trials. It would've only worked if it had been say a final season when hell could be closed - equaling success for Dean. Any failure scenario would've resulted in more Dean guilt.

[SueB]

So my general opinion of S7 is that you are right, Sam supported Dean. But I thought (because I could) I'd look at each episode for who was in the "support the other brother" role for each episode:

 

7.1-3 Meet the New Boss thru The Girl Next Door: Dean supports Sam's broken head

7.4-7.15 Defending Your Life thru Repo Man: Sam supports Dean's depression, alcoholism, & guilt ... at the end of Repo Man, when Sam let's Luci back in, Sam's head gets worse broke

7.16-7.17 Out with the Old and Born-Again Identity: Dean supports sleep deprived Sam

Note: At the end of S7, they pretty much dropped the uber-depression alcoholism plot.  The BTS reason is that didn't think they could do the alcoholism plot AND get everything else in.  I would say "in-story" you can justify that Dean's depression started to lift when Cas came back. And when they FINALLY had the info to kill Dick Roman, Dean had pushed his issues to the side completely in support of his revenge goal. 

but, there's still some back & forth going on so here's how I see it:

7:18-7:19 Party On Garth & Of Grave Importance Sam mostly supports Dean. They still have the alcoholism plot going until Bobby's ghost shows up.

7:20 The Girl with the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo Neutral They are both more freaked out about implications regarding Bobby than anything else IMO.

7:21-7:23 Reading is Fundamental to Survival of The Fittest Sam (sort of) Dean's not handling Cas all that well but he's pretty high functioning now. Dean IMO is driving the plot bus at this point. So I said "sort of" because Sam seems less worried about Dean's mental health than he was earlier and he also seems on-board with ending the Leviathan Soylent Green plan. Also, Sam has the funny 'guide Dean thru the non-processed food withdrawal' bit. 

By the numbers:

Dean supports Sam - 5

Sam supports Dean - 14

Sam sort of supports Dean - 3

 

So I'd say, yeah, I buy that Sam was the one mostly in the support role in S7 despite his broken head.

 

In Season 8:

8.1-8.10 (We Need.....thru Torn and Frayed): Neither. They were pretty pissy with each other.

8.11-8.13 LARP, As Time Goes By, Hitler: Neither. They were kinda healing during this time.

8:14 Trial and Error: Sam. Because Dean had a "go out in a blaze of glory" attitude. But of course everything shifted when Sam took on the trial

8.15-8.16 Man's Best..& ... Titans: Dean sort of. They backburned the whole trial thing for these two (abominable IMO) episodes.

8.17- 8.23 Goodbye Stranger thru Sacrifice: Dean. Sam starts the Doc Holliday blood coughing and it gets worse from here. Although Freaks and Geeks was pretty trialburculosis lite.

 

Tally:
Neither - 13

Sam - 1

Dean - 7

Dean sort of - 2

 

I think what makes it seem so extreme (in comparison to the numbers), is the pissy-ness of the start of S8 (where arguably they should have had a Purgatory PTSD story for Dean, with Sam supportive vice sniping at each other).  Now multiply that by the amount of literal caretaker support in the last 7 episodes by Dean and the "Dean is supporting" effect is amplified in S8.

 

I would argue the trial was NEVER Dean's.  Dean intended to do the trials. He WAS the best hunter at this moment in the series - hands down - but just because he felt it was his calling (because he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory), doesn't mean he actually GETS to call dibs on it.  There's a slight nod in his favor for the trials being "his" because he pushed both Sam and Kevin to do this. Sam also seriously considered walking away completely from hunting for multiple episodes.  But I think Carver always intended for Sam to try the trials as his way of proving himself to Dean after failing him at the start of S8 ('Sam hit a dog'). It just didn't taste very good to a lot of fans. And Carver did an incredibly piss poor job of explaining Sam's POV in S8.  Just criminally poor, actually.  I could work a logic path for why Sam did what he did (sort of a mini-breakdown when Dean vanished), but Carver acted like it was a 'mature' decision.  I think Carver knows he screwed up there -- hence the continued "Sam hit a dog." comment. 

 

So.. to end this little diatribe:

I think S7 had Sam more in the support role. S8 had Dean more in the support role.  The manner of Dean's support, in combination with the start of S8, made it look much worse than perhaps it really was.

JMO, YMMV

Edited December 5, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

Thank you for that analysis, SueB. I'm glad to know that I wasn't imagining my interpretation of season 7. I really do think it's an under-appreciated season.

 

And I definitely agree that Dean was in the support role more for season 8. I have no question about that. My main point concerning Sam doing the trials - in addition to Dean not fitting plot-wise in terms of the way it went down as I mentioned above - was that despite the caretaker role, Dean he also had an active plot at the beginning of the season - at least in the traditional sense. I suppose it could be argued that Sam's Amelia plot was active, but the nature of it didn't make it look that way. I'd in fact maybe argue that it was a "support" role - just in support of Amelia and her loss, since nothing "active" was really happening and it didn't have anything to do with the current show plot.

 

Meanwhile, Dean had been doing all of this uber-active stuff with fighting through purgatory and then saving Castiel, and at least the Castiel stuff was tangentially related to some of the plot stuff going on in the current plot with Dean's dynamic with Castiel and Benny. The entire Amelia plot could've been dropped or skipped without any affect on the plot of the season at all, so compared to Dean's plot, Sam's seemed maybe short-changed in the first half of the season. (In other words as Dean's caretaking was amplified in the second half of the season, Sam having little to nothing to do with the main plot was amplified for me in the first half - and that it came on the heels of a rather Sam-active plot light season 7 (which I loved, because Sam was not a complete douce at the same time, but...) - I was ready for Sam to do something active, and if he'd gone into support role again after having so little plot it seemed earlier in the season, it might have been a little much, especially since we soon went back into Dean-driven plot the next season. My opinion only, I realize.

 

However add that to the damage done to Sam's character via the terrible choices made by Carver and company in the first half of the season and, in my opinion, Sam was in much need of something plot related, but it had to be something that could still be believable based on the crappy stuff they had from the first half of the season - *sigh.*

 

I'm just glad that finally for the first time in the Carver era it seems, Sam has a non-active plot without being made to be a jerk, since that seems to have been done to him in both the first half of season 8 and then in the second half of season 9.

Edited December 5, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

But I think Carver always intended for Sam to try the trials as his way of proving himself to Dean after failing him at the start of S8 ('Sam hit a dog'). It just didn't taste very good to a lot of fans. And Carver did an incredibly piss poor job of explaining Sam's POV in S8.  Just criminally poor, actually.  I could work a logic path for why Sam did what he did (sort of a mini-breakdown when Dean vanished), but Carver acted like it was a 'mature' decision.  I think Carver knows he screwed up there -- hence the continued "Sam hit a dog." comment. 

 

So.. to end this little diatribe:

I think S7 had Sam more in the support role. S8 had Dean more in the support role.  The manner of Dean's support, in combination with the start of S8, made it look much worse than perhaps it really was.

JMO, YMMV

 

The Trials were probably conceived of as a Sam storyline, imo, since they were all about purification, which has always been Sam's personal bugaboo. I that that the setup was to have Sam "redeem" himself over the course of the season, going from the running-over-a-dog thing to purifying himself and then confessing that his greatest sin was letting Dean down and giving up the Trials for him/because he believed in them as a team (or something) (though of course the running-over-the-dog *and* the actual confession both happened OFF CAMERA *eyeroll* but damn that was a poorly written season altogether so I guess that's not surprising).

 

Dean's storyline for the season was imo something about trust, like maybe about figuring out who/what to trust, but that was all wishy-washy and not developed, so I'm not sure wtf that arc was supposed to be really. He went from trusting Benny to trusting himself and Sam or something, I guess.

 

S8 was just *horrible* imo, the worst season of the series, so I think the execution was poor and they never actually developed any of Dean's possible storylines, albeit even the Trials never made any sense anyway. Like, the Trials were all a spell in the end? Or Metatron trying to gather ingredients for a spell? Or something? Doesn't matter now, I guess. If the writers were so confused and hurting for story, why didn't they just show the Purgatory/Amelia stories in real time instead of in scattered flashbacks? Especially if Purgatory/Amelia were supposed to be integral to the characters' arcs/storylines for the season (which I think they were). Why they paired "purgatory" and "running over a dog" as the guys' individual storylines for the season in the first place, though, I haven't the foggiest. That *had* to have sounded like a terrible idea just from the word go. Well anyway.

 

The point is, I may be wrong because I don't have a very strong grip on that season in particular, but I think that Dean just straight up never got an SL for S8, I don't think that the Trials were supposed to be his, I think the writers just hand-waved some "Benny" "alcoholism" "misplaced trust" shit but then never actually bothered to flesh those possibilities/suggestions out into an actual *plot.* I'm trying not to hate on the writers too hard, because 23 episodes is a lot and Carver was new(ish), etc etc etc, so I guess they just did what they could, but that season seems REALLY disorganized in terms of plot/pacing, and it seems to me like they should have spent a whole lot more time just doing the front-end stuff like brainstorming and outlining. Meh, what's done is done. My mostly-joking-but-not-entirely-joking head!canon is that SPN ended after S7, and S8 on is SPN's "spinoff," since these past few seasons have looked and felt so different and even the characters just seem fundamentally OOC to me a lot of the time. But to the show's credit, S9 was significantly better than S8, and S10 is shaping up to be at least on par or maybe even better than S9, so hey. I guess they're trying.

 

Though thinking about it, while Dean has this MoC/Demon storyline, does Sam have his own storyline this season? I like that they're going easy on the mytharc stuff, so that's def not a complaint. I guess I just hadn't thought of it.

[amensisterfriend]

I'm glad to know that I wasn't imagining my interpretation of season 7. I really do think it's an under-appreciated season.

 

I'm sitting with you at that small table for those who love S7 :) It's got its share of flaws, of course, but I actually prefer it to any post-S3 season. 

 

S10 is shaping up to be at least on par or maybe even better than S9

 

Maybe it's because my expectations were so comfortably low, but I'm enjoying S10 so much more than I'd expected. And now I feel like I just somehow jinxed it... :) 

[mizkat]

I'm liking S10 much better than S8 and S9. I didn't find S7 that offensive, either. On rewatch, S6 wasn't horrible, they just didn't think the Soulless Sam thing through--surprise surprise. S8 and S9 will forever be in the dumpster for me--there's like 3 or 4 eps of both those seasons that I can rewatch. 

[DittyDotDot]

amensisterfriend, on 05 Dec 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Maybe it's because my expectations were so comfortably low, but I'm enjoying S10 so much more than I'd expected. And now I feel like I just somehow jinxed it... :) 

 

I've had the same peculiar feeling, too. The first couple of episodes were rather meh, IMO, but the last three or four I actually had the urge to rewatch--which hasn't happened much since S7 for me. I'm worried I'm letting my expectations rise though.

Edited December 5, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Blue Castle]

So I just started watching SPN a few months ago on Netflix and now I'm finally almost done (on the back half of season 9) and I just hate the Men of Letters bunker more and more.  In fact, I hate the whole Men of Letters thing in general.  I think it totally screws with the mythology of the show--John wasn't just an ordinary person before his wife was killed--He was a Legacy!  Super secret special only he didn't know it!--and the whole theme of how the boys are hunters and that means living on the fringes in crappy motel rooms and abandoned houses, etc.  I mean, I'm happy that Sam and Dean have a nice place to hang to their hats--but this complete wish-fulfillment-comic-book-lair type place?  It makes me miss Bobby's messy, dilapidated house.  And none of it feels real.  As much as the show is (obviously) about the supernatural, the former details of the motel rooms and Bobby's house (where he always seemed to be cooking canned chili) just made it feel real.  I don't get that feeling anymore.

[DittyDotDot]

So I just started watching SPN a few months ago on Netflix and now I'm finally almost done (on the back half of season 9) and I just hate the Men of Letters bunker more and more.  In fact, I hate the whole Men of Letters thing in general.  I think it totally screws with the mythology of the show--John wasn't just an ordinary person before his wife was killed--He was a Legacy!  Super secret special only he didn't know it!--and the whole theme of how the boys are hunters and that means living on the fringes in crappy motel rooms and abandoned houses, etc.  I mean, I'm happy that Sam and Dean have a nice place to hang to their hats--but this complete wish-fulfillment-comic-book-lair type place?  It makes me miss Bobby's messy, dilapidated house.  And none of it feels real.  As much as the show is (obviously) about the supernatural, the former details of the motel rooms and Bobby's house (where he always seemed to be cooking canned chili) just made it feel real.  I don't get that feeling anymore.

 

You and I could hang out together and write bad poems of lament about how we miss the tone of the show. ;)

[supposebly]

 

I think it totally screws with the mythology of the show--John wasn't just an ordinary person before his wife was killed--He was a Legacy!

 

I think in general, the later seasons have screwed a lot with the spirit of freedom of the show. Sam and Dean were destined to become vessels, their parents were destined to get married and produce those two, and of course, Mary's family were hunters and John's, in a way, were too. It kind of devalued the tragedy of Mary dying because, basically, it was her own fault and if she hadn't made a deal, the angels still would have done everything to get her and John to produce Sam and Dean. John would have become a MOL if his father hadn't run into Abaddon.

I think tragedy is much more interesting when there isn't someone in the background planning for it all. I always thought it kind of messes with the spirit of free will and making the best out of tragedy (making hunting and saving people your profession).

Water under the bridge at this point, but it still bothers me sometimes.

Edited December 5, 2014 by supposebly

[amensisterfriend]

That's an amazing point, supposebly, and for me also accounts for why the show is so relentlessly depressing sometimes----the sense of relative freedom, carve-your-own-niche and choose-your-own-adventure of the first couple of seasons was replaced by such heavily fatalistic, screwed-in-every-way-no-matter-what doom. 

 

This is kind of a weird question (but, hey, it's kind of a weird show): What are generally your favorite and least favorite 'types' of creatures/phenomenaepisodes the boys have and might encounter? Shapeshifters, vampires, witches, Djinns, tricksters, the basic angels/demons and their never ending war, Michael/Lucifer/vessel stuff, alt-universe episodes, time travel, Leviathan, pagan gods, etc. etc. etc.?!

[catrox14]

Shapeshifters, demons and leviathan are my favorites. Vampires are okay but done to death. Don't like werewolves or witches because snore. I like the other random monsters throughout. The creepiest was the one with the kids... Ewwwww.

Edited December 5, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

Well we have the new random "eats livers" dudes.  Maybe its a varient of a Kitsune.  You know, Kitsune: Liver style.  Maybe it needs bile to survive or something about metabolisms.  As organs go, the liver is pretty useful... Just putting that out there....

[rue721]

That's an amazing point, supposebly, and for me also accounts for why the show is so relentlessly depressing sometimes----the sense of relative freedom, carve-your-own-niche and choose-your-own-adventure of the first couple of seasons was replaced by such heavily fatalistic, screwed-in-every-way-no-matter-what doom. 

 

This is kind of a weird question (but, hey, it's kind of a weird show): What are generally your favorite and least favorite 'types' of creatures/phenomenaepisodes the boys have and might encounter? Shapeshifters, vampires, witches, Djinns, tricksters, the basic angels/demons and their never ending war, Michael/Lucifer/vessel stuff, alt-universe episodes, time travel, Leviathan, pagan gods, etc. etc. etc.?!

 

Completely agree, I loved when the guys were just some ordinary people who happened to be in these weird circumstances, and when they didn't have friends in high (the HIGHEST) places and a destiny and were apparently bred to be hunters/vessels/who-even-knows somehow. All of that ~fate~ and ~legacy~ stuff undermines the fun/scary "but for the grace of God" feeling the show had when it started out imo. Also, for a show obsessed with "America," it just seems tone-deaf js.

 

I also miss the motels in their own right! The "generic motel" was also the guys' home. *single tear*

 

Favorite creatures:  shapeshifters, trickster(s), ghosts, maybe djinn (though maybe just because they haven't been overused)

Least favorite creatures:  angels (the. worst.), demons, ghouls (because of the gore ugh)

 

Well we have the new random "eats livers" dudes.  Maybe its a varient of a Kitsune.  You know, Kitsune: Liver style.  Maybe it needs bile to survive or something about metabolisms.  As organs go, the liver is pretty useful... Just putting that out there....

 

What's nasty about the "liver eating" thing imo is that liver regenerates, so it makes me picture the monsters having basically a stable of people that they do periodic liver-harvests on. Like, a herd of liver-generating humans for a "liver farm."

 

I'm sitting with you at that small table for those who love S7 :) It's got its share of flaws, of course, but I actually prefer it to any post-S3 season. 

 

I like S7! S6, too. Personally, in terms of ranking the seasons, I think that it's basically:  S2, S1/S3, S6/7...........S9......S8. Dunno where to put S4 and S5, they feel like practically a different show to me -- even more so now, in retrospect, than they did back closer to when they aired.

[SueB]

 

What's nasty about the "liver eating" thing imo is that liver regenerates, so it makes me picture the monsters having basically a stable of people that they do periodic liver-harvests on. Like, a herd of liver-generating humans for a "liver farm."

Feels like a good Twilight Zone episode.  You know, with a crane shot pull-back at the end with the liver-herd.....

 

BTW, I love all seasons.  There's something in every year I'm tickled about. 

[amensisterfriend]

Favorite creatures:  shapeshifters, trickster

 

Same here! I'm totally enamored with the whole idea of shapeshifters and tricksters, not to mention anything that has to do with time travel and alt universes. (It's a Terrible Life may be my very favorite episode from S4.) 

 

I hate vampires as a general rule, though I did find Gordon a really compelling character. 

 

I like S7! S6, too. Personally, in terms of ranking the seasons, I think that it's basically:  S2, S1/S3, S6/7...........S9......S8. Dunno where to put S4 and S5, they feel like practically a different show to me -- even more so now, in retrospect, than they did back closer to when they aired.

 

I love your rankings, and I totally agree about mentally associating S6 with S7 and S4 with S5, and not knowing where to rank the latter pair at all. (Objectively, I can totally see why many think S4 and S5 are the best seasons the show ever gave us, but I just find myself not actually enjoying them much.) 

[mertensia]

I still say the killer was Hannibal Lecter. Dude is creepy enough for this show, that's for sure, especially Mads Mikkelson's portrayal.

Season 7 -if you binge watch it- holds together remarkably well (if you skip Defending Your Life).

[catrox14]

I didn't mind defending your life upon rewatch. But I think it was just a little too confusing as to what Dean was really on trial for. To me it was just along setup for Sam to find out about Amy. It wasnt the worst episode of the season IMO.

[rue721]

Season 7 -if you binge watch it- holds together remarkably well (if you skip Defending Your Life).

 

Agreed, I think S7 is great as a binge-watch, same for S6. When those seasons were airing, I remember feeling like some storylines (i.e., Soulless Sam) were taking foreverrrrrrr. During this (disorganized, random) rewatch I've been doing, though, I've felt like both seasons have really good pacing and hang together really well, though.

 

Defending Your Life wasn't terrible, imo -- I liked that old man who they were trying to protect. I also liked Sam's attempt to be Dean's lawyer. He was trying so hard! But was so inept! Even the actor who played Osiris was good. The concept of what the trial was for and what information was supposed to come out during it and all of that was half-baked, though, imo. I think that the episode overall was pretty good, but the script was poorly written in terms of basic stuff like dialogue. So in the end, the episode as a whole just failed to deliver. Bringing in Jo at all just felt kind of random to me, tbh. I actually think it would have worked better to bring in Ellen. I also couldn't even tell you what either Jo or Sam actually said when they were on the stand. Shouldn't Dean have been on the stand? Shouldn't he have been the one to convict himself? Meh. It wasn't appalling or anything imo, I just feel like the script never came together, it still felt like a draft.

[DittyDotDot]

Well we have the new random "eats livers" dudes.  Maybe its a varient of a Kitsune.  You know, Kitsune: Liver style.  Maybe it needs bile to survive or something about metabolisms.  As organs go, the liver is pretty useful... Just putting that out there....

 

Liver-eating dude always makes me think of that X-files episode where the extremely flexible dude kills a few folks and eats their livers before going back into hibernation for something like 30 years--I suck at episode titles, sorry.

 

 

Anyway favorite monsters/ideas you ask: I find the notion of shape shifters compelling and always thought the Trickster was fascinating; loved the idea (heh, pun now intended) of tulpas (and now I can never type that without hearing Dean's Arnold-voice); but I think what they did with djinn was one of their best twists and is the one time I think a genie-like plot has really worked for me. They've had some interesting twists on obscure pagan gods, too--the kooky Christmas and scarecrow ones, in particular--but haven't been too fond of some of their more obvious Greek/Roman/Norse forays.

 

I think they did a better job of twisting the legends in the early seasons, the last few have been a long string of angels, demons, vampires, werewolves and witches that all seem basically the same at the end of the day. I'm kinda holding out hope that they come up with a compelling urban legend this season--a nice twist on the banshee lore might be delightful, and possibly musical as well. ;)

[Mcolleague]

My favourite monsters were the reapers... do they count? SO MAD that they got retconned into angels and Tessa was killed off, never never never going to get over it. Djinn were very cool. Shapeshifters are also gross and awesome (Bloodlines never happened). The scariest monster for me is still Bloody Mary though, something about mirrors that's super creepy... 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Mcolleague

[catrox14]

I do think the Mark of Cain is one of the best uses of lore they've done in a very long time. I am not eager to see that go away anytime soon. Someone asked if Sam had a SL this year and I think it's going to come back to What Did Sam Do besides Lester. I think he has more secrets.

Edited December 5, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

I do think the Mark of Cain is one of the best uses of lore they've done in a very long time. I am not eager to see that go away anytime soon. Someone asked if Sam had a SL this year and I think it's going to come back to What Did Sam Do besides Lester. I think he has more secrets.

 

Agree, I love this MoC thing. The other thing that I remember hearing about the Mark of Cain (not on the show but also not in a religious context, I honestly don't remember where) is that it was a way for God to mark out Cain as one of his children even as Cain was exiled to wonder the earth alone forever. According to that idea, it wasn't just a curse, it also marked out Cain as special/under God's protection even *as* he was cursed. I wonder if/how the idea of exile and also about being kind of literally marked as "chosen" (by Cain, maybe even by Lucifer by proxy?) might come into play.

 

Love the idea that Sam's got an SL but it's on a slow burn, and that more is going to come out about what he was up to while Dean was a demon. I just keep hoping that more is going to come from the beginning of the season's set up because it was really interesting and imo really fresh/new, which is pretty hard for a show this old to pull off (!), but then it all just seemed to be dumped in such an anti-climactic way.

 

I also have to say that I like how Sam is being written this season in comparison with the past couple. I liked how he handled coming to pick up Demon!Dean from that bar, and just seemed so exhausted and sad and wasn't even bothering to bullshit. I liked how nonchalant (and also not even bothering to bullshit really) he was with Cole. When things got out of hand during the "demon cure" thing, I like how he relied more on tricking Demon!Dean and thinking things through rather than on physical force. The wheels have clearly been turning in his mind over what's going on with Dean, too, what with how he asked Dean about the overkill of the shifter in "Ask Jeeves" and how dubious he looked when Dean told him he felt like himself after the vampire melee in "Hibbing 911." I have no idea what he's thinking or what's brewing with him, tbh. From how he's been acting, I would guess that he's got some sort of plan on the back-burner -- which tbh is kind of unusual for him, anyway. He's always been much more about the execution than about the setup of plans, so that's interesting in its own right I think. But I still don't know what that plan could be. Something that I generally find interesting and like about Sam is how self-contained he is, and in the past couple seasons, that's tended to be played as him being cold or aloof, but in this season, I feel like it's being played more as him being reserved and introverted. That's making him feel more likable imo, but it also creates more suspense, because I can believe that he's got something going on but that he'd never confide in anyone just as a matter of personality, and that we're only going to find out what's up when he throws a fully-formed plan or a whole big mass of secrets or something into play.

[DittyDotDot]

rue721, on 05 Dec 2014 - 5:04 PM, said:

Agree, I love this MoC thing. The other thing that I remember hearing about the Mark of Cain (not on the show but also not in a religious context, I honestly don't remember where) is that it was a way for God to mark out Cain as one of his children even as Cain was exiled to wonder the earth alone forever. According to that idea, it wasn't just a curse, it also marked out Cain as special/under God's protection even *as* he was cursed. I wonder if/how the idea of exile and also about being kind of literally marked as "chosen" (by Cain, maybe even by Lucifer by proxy?) might come into play.

 

Oh, look at you trying to get me to remember those Sunday school lessons. If I recall correctly, the mark was put upon Cain to warn others that killing Cain would provoke the vengeance of God. As I recall, the idea was killing Cain would release him from his curse to walk his remaining days alone and never find solace after murdering his brother. Being under Lucifer's protection is an interesting interpretation that could make for some interesting story, though. Actually, if killing Cain invokes the wrath of Lucifer, I'd say Dean's gonna have double wrath to deal with since Lucifer's probably already a little pissed at Dean's involvement with that whole averting destiny and all.

 

Interesting thinking thoughts...need to think more.

[Aeryn13]

 

Someone asked if Sam had a SL this year and I think it's going to come back to What Did Sam Do besides Lester. I think he has more secrets.

 

Probably. Though they went through entire Seasons where Dean didn`t have a storyline, nothing supernaturally special or themed, just some sideline angst and Sam support, so why would it be such a big deal if for the first time in the entire show Sam went a complete Season without a story? What`s good for the goose and all. Besides, the character has already gotten so many, even if he got none till the show ends, he`d still come out on top.

 

Meanwhile this Mark thing is all Dean has and has had for years. That`s why I would at best never want to see it go. But alas.

[SueB]

In SPN 'verse they had the Mark be something Lucifer (vice God) gave Cain.  We know the consequences of killing Cain with the Mark was to make him a demon.  Now that he's 'transferred' the Mark but is STILL a demon, I'm not sure what the impact will be.  Cain didn't know committing suicide would result in him being a demon so he himself may not know what happens if he dies now.  Still...somehow he knew he could transfer it.  That's a bit of 'a wizard did it' inconsistency.  How did he know this? I think I'd be surprised if Luci explained the rules (since he left out that whole 'turn into a demon' thing). 

 

Still, I think it's reasonable that like the ring in the LOTR (funny how they call the Blade Dean's precious!), there are rules...like the ring trying to get back to it's master.  When Metatron killed Dean, he did end up losing, but I don't know if that was connected to Dean's death. Of course it was awesome imagery to have the angel tablet smash as Dean fell.  But the heavens did not shake when Dean actually expired.  So... IDK.

[catrox14]

So I've had some time since my mom's health crisis is a bit under control to rewatch First Born and all the episodes after Dean got the Mark....and you know.. I'm just gonna sit here in awe of Jensen. Because upon rewatch I see so much of the nuance of how the Mark was affecting him that I missed during the first two viewings. And it's not the hand shaking or the rage but it's all in Dean's eyes and face. And as demon!Dean it's all in the eyes and manner and somewhat the voice. clearly the writing helps but when it doesn't Jensen just knows what to do. And as post-demon!Dean it's new in a different way with hints of regular Dean and demon!Dean and MoC!dean.   And I just do not freaking understand how Jensen does that. 

 

But I sure am glad I have the privilege of watching him do it.

 

And yes I fucking hate Crowley all over again when he says "Feel what I feel" so much hate.

Edited December 6, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

clearly the writing helps but when it doesn't Jensen just knows what to do

Which is why Carver gave him a script and no guidance on Demon!Dean.  He understands, Jensen will create something unique.  Jensen found it a little daunting but I was thrilled with his choices as a demon.  He was unlike any other demon (not on a mission, not a minion, not dedicated to some cause, not just bloodthirsty). He was Dean who had no f*cks to give, was there for a party, and was a whole lotta mean. 

[catrox14]

I still laugh at myself at how apoplectic I was about Dean (well I still am re the choice) but damn if I don't just love what he did with demon!Dean.  He was much scarier as the totally uncaring borderline sociopath Dean.  EEP. 

[rue721]

why would it be such a big deal if for the first time in the entire show Sam went a complete Season without a story?

 

Imo, because it's more fun when they each have an individual storyline/arc for the season. The seasons when Dean didn't have an individual arc or when it got truncated (such as S8 imo) were the worse for it, I thought. A big reason why imo S9 worked better than S8 is because in S9 they each had individual arcs and those arcs basically made sense/were basically emotionally credible (not that S8 set the bar high). I don't think that an individual supernatural arc is better than a non-supernatural individual arc, though, at least in terms of how much I'm interested or enjoy it. If anything, I prefer non-supernatural arcs, because I like that they keep the character's POV accessible and because they're usually about character growth. Also, because they're more about the character's choices and what he chooses to do, not just his reactions to what are done to him -- which make those SLs feel more dynamic imo. The best SLs are the ones that are mixed between supernatural and character-based, though, imo. Off the top of my head, the ones I think of that way:  YED, Dean's "last year," Sam's demon blood, MoC. Of course, YMMV.

 

In SPN 'verse they had the Mark be something Lucifer (vice God) gave Cain.  We know the consequences of killing Cain with the Mark was to make him a demon.  Now that he's 'transferred' the Mark but is STILL a demon, I'm not sure what the impact will be. 

 

[...] But the heavens did not shake when Dean actually expired.  So... IDK.

 

Wait wait, why didn't they kill Lucifer back in the day? I don't remember. They can kill archangels, right? If the Mark is to signify being under Lucifer's protection/curse, then wouldn't killing him make it meaningless? Or is Lucifer already "dead" since he's not in a vessel now even though he's not in Heaven...ugh, a decade of mythology is a lot to keep track of, gotta say!

 

Also, maybe the heavens didn't shake because the MoC was alive and well, even if its host (Dean) wasn't. Just because Dean dying was OK doesn't mean that the Mark "dying" would be!

 

Which is why Carver gave him a script and no guidance on Demon!Dean.  He understands, Jensen will create something unique.  Jensen found it a little daunting but I was thrilled with his choices as a demon.

 

I had no idea! Yes, JA's interpretations of the scripts/character are pretty interesting imo. In general, he tends to go sweeter and more earnest in his performance than I would expect the character to be just from the script(s). That's something that I really like -- it endears me to Dean a lot, that Dean never seems to assume the worst about other people, and it also is just interesting and keeps me on my toes in terms of who the character is.

 

Another thing that I like about how JA plays Dean, and he did it while playing a demon, too, is that he has this tension to him, like he's always thinking, taking things in, his wheels are always turning and he's always putting things together. I remember watching JA wayyyyyyy back in the day on Dark Angel and on Smallville, and his characters on those shows never came off that way to me in the least, so I guess that's just part of how he sees Dean as a character? Idk, I don't know anything about acting or how actors do what they do or how they convey things like that. But that's something that's been there from pretty much Day One, and it's something that I really like -- about the character *and* as a performance choice/interpretation on JA's part.

 

Those are also both reasons why I was (am!) interested in seeing Dean as a demon. How would those traits get re-imagined to fit with a *demon* ffs?! Well, and all kinds of other things. I mean, even if a person's love goes away when they become a demon, do their obsessions go, too, or do those obsessions just become twisted? It sounded in the car ride with Sam like Dean had set something up for him, like Dean had a (not! merciful!) plan for him up his sleeve -- is that ever going to come to fruition? Idk, just so many questions. How a character could possibly be interesting after 200+ episodes I don't know, but hey. Somehow he is.

[supposebly]

 

What's nasty about the "liver eating" thing imo is that liver regenerates, so it makes me picture the monsters having basically a stable of people that they do periodic liver-harvests on. Like, a herd of liver-generating humans for a "liver farm."

 If you haven't, you should watch the X-files season 1 episode "Squeeze". Best monster of every show ever. A livereating, hibernating, immortal creepy monster who could squeeze through vents and just....I love him so very much.

 

As to favorite monsters in Supernatural, I don't really care. The ones where there was an interesting story or character or both. So, I like the alpha vamp but not the other vamps. I liked early shapeshifters, they were so gross and pathetic and didn't speechify so much. The first djinn. I liked the Wendigo, it was fast and creepy and thought ahead to keep some campers in storage for bad times. I like a monster with a plan.

 

Oh, oh, the unicorn!

[catrox14]

I thought Alec on Dark Angel was the precursor to Dean Winchester.  There are many scenes where I thought Alec was thinking about things but Alec was also a "lighter" character than Dean. And to be fair, Jensen has always respected that he was the supporting character for the leads and I think he deliberately did not make choices that would sort of outshine the leads.  He just outshined them all in Dark Angel IMO even without really trying.  Jason Teague was interesting once they paired him off with Lex and he showed his stuff there.

 

But since he is the co-lead here I think he is more willing to do what he wants with the character... and thank goodness for his choices.  I think he took Kim Manners advice to heart when he told Jensen to "give them what they want in a way they least expect".  I can count on one hand the choices that I thought were missteps for Dean.

[SueB]

Wait wait, why didn't they kill Lucifer back in the day? I don't remember. They can kill archangels, right?

The Colt didn't work. Gabriel tried and failed to kill him with a blade but Luci DID shank Gabriel. A Holy Oil Molotov cocktail only worked on Micheal for a few minutes. So, per Gabriel and Death, their only option was to shove Luci back in the cage. So Lucifer is not dead, he and Micheal are just caged. As for why the blade worked on Gabriel, I don't know. Unless it didn't. (*insert Richard Speight Jr. eye wiggle)

[mizkat]

Witches. I hate them. That said, I like Rowena. She's totally campy enough to be Crowley's mum. Plus she's a failure as a witch. 

 

The rest of them- ick. 

 

I wish there were more Tricksters and they were all clones of Gabriel/Richard Speight. 

[SueB]

ITA, witches are ick messy with the body fluids. As for favorites, it's kinda hard to say. Ghosts have the ability to have interesting back stories so maybe ghosts.

[rue721]

 If you haven't, you should watch the X-files season 1 episode "Squeeze". Best monster of every show ever. A livereating, hibernating, immortal creepy monster who could squeeze through vents and just....I love him so very much.

 

As to favorite monsters in Supernatural, I don't really care. The ones where there was an interesting story or character or both. So, I like the alpha vamp but not the other vamps. I liked early shapeshifters, they were so gross and pathetic and didn't speechify so much. The first djinn. I liked the Wendigo, it was fast and creepy and thought ahead to keep some campers in storage for bad times. I like a monster with a plan.

 

Oh, oh, the unicorn!

 

An immortal, hibernating liver-eater?! I guess if you managed to keep good records and knew when he was coming out of hibernation, you could just have a ton of livers sitting there waiting for him when he woke up so he wouldn't have to go after anybody? It could be like an offering to a "god," you could get a whole cult going probably. I guess you'd have to, if you wanted to fix the problem for the long-term.

 

I actually don't mind the shapeshifters' speechifying, because they're always so freaking BITTER. My favorite was the Monster Movie guy, who had that legit sob story about his father trying to murder him with a shovel, and complains about how he's so lonely, so his victim says, "but you're lonely because you *murder people*!" and he gets this very theatrical look and says, "or do I murder people because I'm lonely?" LOL cracks me up laughing just remembering that. He was trying to woobify HIMSELF in his ACTUAL LIFE. Love it.

 

In general, I like when the monsters have at least somewhat of a legitimate grievance. Or are tricky/clever in their own way. It keeps things more interesting imo.

[Aeryn13]

 

Imo, because it's more fun when they each have an individual storyline/arc for the season. The seasons when Dean didn't have an individual arc or when it got truncated (such as S8 imo) were the worse for it, I thought.

 

I thought they were atrocious, too, but since it happened with Dean a couple of times, I`m surely not gonna go "but God forbid it happens to Sam". The "oh, Sam must always hold a more special place" is the big reason the writing has completely turned me off the character. So personally, I`d consider it well-earned karma if for once, after ten years, he does not.

 

Of course since I watch supernaturally-themed shows for supernaturally-themed stuff, a story with powers, a destiny and the supernatural specialness is always preferable to me. I don`t even count the others as storylines, Human "mundane" angst can be given to the characters in their supernatural arcs but on its own? There is a reason I don`t much watch shows that have only that. Holds no interest for me.

 

In terms of favourite supernatural "creatures" on the show, do ghosts count?

 

Because they have written demons and angels into the ground at this point. I once read a small casting call for "goon angel" and that told me everything I needed to know. Vampires, shapeshifters, werewolves - all cool at some point also got their already with various retcons. Reapers used to be cool but then they became angels as well and see above. Pagan Gods were one of the first to go in terms of "oh this is cool...oh well, it WAS cool...please don`t."  

 

Ghosts are IMO still scary or touching or poignant and you can still make good episodes about them. I think that is due to the fact that for some time now the writers consider ghost so small-fry and lower-tier that they are not good enough to be considered the motif for an episode and hence are hardly revisited these days. Dodged a bullet there, ghostly beings.   

[mizkat]

in general, I like when the monsters have at least somewhat of a legitimate grievance. Or are tricky/clever in their own way. It keeps things more interesting imo.

 

One of the monsters I felt sorry for was the one in Yellow Fever. IIRC, he was killed because of his crush on some guy's wife, but he was also developmentally delayed. However, he was still a monster and had to be dispatched. But to me he was one of those "gray" monsters, and I find them more interesting than the ones that revel in their evil. 

[catrox14]

From the Repo Man thread .

 

Oh gods...

   

but once the demon was out, it left him marked. He kept reliving what had happened, and couldn't escape from it, and his life fell apart, and it got to a point where he just wanted to be back in that time again

 

 

How could I not remember this with Dean? How can Dean ever possibly really truly recover from his demonity even with the blood cure?  They don't really know if Dean is actually completely cured and if Jeffrey is any example and since Dean was his own demon he'll never be free from remembering what he did as a demon or the evil thoughts he might have had that perhaps he never acted on but maybe those thoughts are still rolling around in his head. Or what if there is something heinous that we haven't learned about yet that haunts him now? He has the MoC so that will complicate what affects him.

 

What if something happens that makes Dean just want to go back to that time because it's the only thing he'll be able to find any power again, like for instance something happening to Sammy?

 

I am just so hopelessly sad now. I'll just be over here ...in the corner...:(

[SueB]

...From the S10 "Things We Left Behind" episode thread....

 

I don't know what they're working toward this season. (mizkat)

Technically we are not at a mid-point, but they use the "fall finale" as a way of transitioning from one place towards the next. Reviewing where we are at, I think they've actually done a helluva lot from a character perspective.  This may not be as thrilling as a cosmic-impacting mytharc but I'm kinda thrilled that they are taking time to really sort out what our main characters want/need and who they really are. I'll go in reverse credits order...

 

Crowley: He's the one who I think is the most variable in terms of outcome. His mother's manipulations were SOOOOOO transparent.  I just have to believe he didn't just simply fall under her spell.  She may be good, but he's Crowley.  I don't know if he knows what he's going to do with her, but he's going to explore it.  I think Dean's rejection was a gut-shot.  Not because he was in love with the guy but because he thought he could have a purpose there.  At least it would be more fun. He's absolutely BORED. The blood addiction (which he doesn't seem to be feeding anymore), sort of took away his hunger for the kill and enjoyment in mayhem.  What do you do when you've gotten to the top?  No one is a threat to him. His last great mission-- kill Abaddon -- is done.  He put out a generic "up the soul corruption production" because that's his job. But he's not happy with it. Go figure.  He wouldn't be the first person to get to "the top" and find it unsatisfying.

Where we leave him: Vexed. But with a new challenge/diversion -- mother.

Where he needs to go: Decide how to make his job meaningful or figure a way out that doesn't actually result in chaos.

 

Castiel: I worry about him most. He's just trying to do good and make amends til he dies. He seems to have (for the moment) decided Heaven needs to sort out Heaven. That was his mission up until Hannah left.  And she indicated it was really winding down. So he'll work on Claire, Dean, and probably Sam too.  He sees no purpose for himself except to clean up his messes I think.  And he adores Sam and Dean. So he's going to do everything he can to square these two away.  He told Hannah they were the two best men he'd ever known. And he knows that Angel & Demons have screwed their lives over. So... I can see him feeling an obligation to get them sane and healthy.  TALL FREAKING ORDER. Made worse by the constant need to push him offscreen (bitter TFW fan here who feels external forces are driving Cas to the sidelines).

Where we leave him: with a emotionally scarred teenager who he's abducted and a best friend whose grasp on control is iffy at best

Where he need to go: Decide to live. Get his freaking grace back without freeing Metatron.

 

Dean: Oy. What a mess. But it's a hopeful mess in many ways.  Okay, so he's carrying around a massively evil Mark. But by showing him this uber darkness, it really has helped Dean to see what he really would have LIKED to have been. He'd like to be back to Saving People, Hunting Things, The Family Business.  And this first half of the season has been for both he and Sam's benefit.  It's been a retrospective of the good and bad they do.  How often do we really sit back and reflect on what has gone right and what has gone wrong.  The MOTW (as mirrors), revisit of old event, and the musical have laid out their lives for them. And I think Dean is actually getting a healthier understanding of himself while simultaneously completely giving up hope for his future.  His advice to Cas about letting go and moving forward was excellent. And I loved how Dean laughed and said it was the opposite of what HE does.  Dean's always had a self-awareness that he ignores.  He's actually TALKING about it these days. It's like a different version of "nothing to lose". He, like Cas, is just trying to clean up what he can. He expects it to go bad and he's desperately hoping Cas or something else will stop him when he goes off the deep end.

Where we leave him: Admitting that he's not really in control. The "break" time is over and they'll have to deal with his nature.

Where he needs to go: Get rid of the Mark or cease to exist. I'm obviously hoping for the former.

 

Sam: Like mizkat said, he's been in the best position he's been in a LONG time.  For one thing, he's focused on Dean and not himself. Sometimes that's just what you need.  You can get wrapped around your own axle of what and who you are.  By focusing on Dean (without the initial desperation), Sam has a clarity. He's silently panicked that Dean is not good but at least for from the time he got rid of the black eyes until the last 3 minutes, Sam was able to take things day by day and feel like there was healing going on. Was this the first time Sam actually MADE food for Dean? I swear it might me.  It was such a nice change of pace for him. To legitimately feel like he was NOT the problem child.  Of course he's ignoring things he did that will come back to haunt him later.  But that's okay, Sam NEEDS this. He needs this parity with his brother (as whack as the circumstances are). And Dean is relying on him. That's huge.

Where we leave him: Full blown panic. Dean's not in control and is looking at Sam to help him

Where he needs to go: He needs to help his brother get rid of the Mark so that he lives. He also needs to reconcile his actions and find that "line" again. 

 

Personally, I'm pleased with the luxury of taking the time to explore these characters.  I don't know what Carver's end game is.  I suspect much depends on if there is a S11 pick up and what Carver's role is going to be. To some extent, the show belongs more to Jared and Jensen than it does anyone else.  And neither are looking at a happily ever after ending.  But, looking at the crystal ball, S11 seems likely (numbers are good, J2 seems willing). If no one screws up, they will have at least one more season to wrap up the story.  With that in mind, finishing the season with the characters in a less ambiguous state would allow a variety of future storylines.  There's a lot of mytharc they could go back and square away; Heaven (get it back up to full capacity, but less memorex, and no dick angels), Hell (have it serve it's purpose but stay inside it's box, less demons roaming the earth), and Earth (back to a natural order with a decent balance between Hunters & Monsters...okay, maybe a little nicer than before).*

 

*My apologies to English majors. Grammar and sentence structure NOT MY SKILLSET.

Edited December 11, 2014 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

And I think Dean is actually getting a healthier understanding of himself

 

But he thinks of himself as nothing but a monster and a born killer. Like the promo monkeys and the writers. It`s bad enough they hate the character, I don`t need this self-flagellation on top of it. 

 

And if he removes the Mark then what? Just more endless guilt, shame, groveling and apologies? Not to mention gazing up in awe at the saintly wonderfulness that is apparently Sam? That is both the opposite of what I want to see and what I think Dean needs. For both, I would like to have some gosh damn validation of him as a hero and a good person. And NOT in any way have that be related to being Sam`s nanny or support or or butler stuff like that. 

 

I want the writers to find and acknowledge heroism and goodness in the character of Dean that is just about Dean. I want a phoenix rising from the ashes story where he, too, gets his big redemption and win. Anything less than that and basically the storyline is crap in my eyes.

[SueB]

 

But he thinks of himself as nothing but a monster and a born killer.

I'm not so sure anymore.  He seems himself as a LOST CAUSE. But that's not the same as his description of himself as "poison" last year.  I really think he believes that because of the Mark he can't be salvaged. But I think this season has shown him where he's done good.  His "It's too late for me" to Cole is not saying (IMO) that he (Dean) is a worthless person. He's saying that he can't recover from what has happened to him. 

 

I am probably not explaining this well.  Dean has not remotely forgiven himself for all the bad things he's done. And I think he thinks he DESERVES being condemned.  Like Osiris said - people want to be judged. Dean feels he's BEEN judged. He's gotten his comeuppance (the Mark and demonhood). Now all he wants is to limit the damaged. BUT...and this is the important part...he also recognizes that he has done some good. He is IMO finding that he's been a hero in the past (and not just 5 years ago).  So far this season he's been focusing on doing good as much as he can. He recognizes his capacity for good.  Last year he was just "poison". He felt he destroyed everything around him.  He's not acting like that.  Now he's acting like someone who wants as many opportunities to do good before he implodes again.  And he's DONE that.  What's he (and Sam, working as a team) accomplished thus far?

- Forced Kate to deal with her sister. No more werewolf deaths there and Kate has demonstrated some pretty good control of her monsterhood.

- Saved three people in the musical. Got Marie in touch with her inner hero.

- Cleaned up a Bobby leftover. Sure, the shifter killed two more people while they were "on the case", but the rest are alive.

- Saved two of three women who were being exploited by first a demon and then a witch

- Pulled Cole back from the ledge.

- Took out a hippy vampire nest that's been around since Woodstock. Yes, another death happened just when they arrived, but they closed the case pretty quickly. And Donna's inspired now.  Jody gets most of the credit for that last bit, but then THEY inspired Jody.

- Even though Claire was saved, it's tough to call this last one a "win" as there are five dead scumbag bodies. BUT at least he got Cas to go after saving Claire.

 

There's an openness to Dean that we've never seen before. Yes he was trying the "fake it" approach to allow him to still work cases, but he's letting himself rely on others.  One of Dean's critical flaws is taking everything on himself.  It's healthy that he's leaning on Sam and Cas.  REALLY healthy. 

 

So, I see Dean in a better place mentally based on his actions and reactions. It's an odd juxtaposition of fatalism and improvement.  But I'm okay with it. Because I have faith the show is going to prove him wrong about his future. He will be saved. And I don't care if he does it all himself or if it takes a village.  I just want him to believe he's WORTH saving.  He's not nearly there yet but the episodes thus far have IMO, taken him down that road and away from where he was when he took on the Mark. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "The Things We Left Behind" episode thread:

 

Regarding hell--we know that Dean was dead for 3 months which came to 40 years in hell, right?  Sam popped out almost instantly but did we ever find out how much hell-time that was?  I know it's different than Dean's experience since Sam was in Lucifer's cage and tortured afterwards by the hallucinations but I'd be curious to know how their "time down under" matches up.

 

Dean was in hell for 4 months - so apparently each month roughly = 10 years.

 

Sam's body was brought out of Lucifer's cage fairly quickly, but his soul got left behind. We learned later - in what I thought was an unexpected twist and retroactively explained Castiel's weird behavior - that Castiel tried to save Sam from the cage, but only got his body. That the Dean / Sam reunion that Castiel was hoping for Dean didn't happen (because Sam was soulless and so didn't really care at first about getting back with Dean) sort of fed into why Castiel didn't then ask for Dean's help with his Raphael problem. He concluded that Dean had given enough, and Castiel couldn't make it right by giving him Sam back, so how could he ask Dean for yet another favor? Where Castiel screwed up was in not reading the huge flashing warning signs that something was really wrong with the Sam he brought back and he instead went on to his Raphael problem and didn't follow up on what was wrong with Sam.

 

As for the rest of Sam - most of Sam - it stayed in Lucifer's cage about a year plus how ever long the first half of the season was in real time until "Appointment in Samarra" when Dean convinced Death to get it out. Which I think was estimated at about 180 years hell time. Of course Sam's time in the cage was not the same as Dean's hell where the point was to break him. My theory is that Lucifer would intentionally not completely break Sam, since then Sam wouldn't be much fun to play with anymore. There was likely physical torture - and Sam's hell memories represented this both directly and kind of low-rently with the fire representations and more subtly, creepily, and scarily with the flashes of hooks and pieces of flesh - but I'm suspecting that Lucifer's mind games were likely more prevalent here. Lucifer just seemed to be that kind of asshat. Kind of like a whiny 6 year old constantly demanding attention, but never being happy for long because the attention isn't ever good enough and so then doling out random "punishments" in response - over and over for 180 or so years. I'm guessing there were stretches of reprieve when Sam somehow made Lucifer "happy" only to be taken back on a whim when Lucifer felt like it. We do know - based on Sam's hell memories - that Sam was Lucifer's "bitch" in every sense of the word (Lucifer also called him bunk-buddy and referred specifically to rape, so that happened, too) so psychologically that was his role for his entire stay in the cage. As far as I can gather, here was no effort to turn Sam into something else ("a new animal" Alastair called it) like there was for Dean.

 

So while Dean's hell was excruciating pain meant to break him, it sounded from Dean's description to be very structured - each day the same. Not that that made it better - likely worse. Sam's hell was likely less bad in terms of pain, but I'm guessing that psychologically it was unpredictable with Sam waiting for when any reprieve was going to return to pain or psychological torture. Sam's soul "remembered" the hell stint, so when Castiel broke the wall, Sam got those memories back in addition to the memories his body had - so he basically got two timelines of memories from that year and a half... which might explain why his mind was fractured into pieces and had to be put back together by Sam in order for him to get whole again.

[Aeryn13]

 

He will be saved. And I don't care if he does it all himself or if it takes a village.  I just want him to believe he's WORTH saving.

 

I want so much more than that. A real big heroic success that he himself can claim. Not being saved. That reinforces nothing else than the ones doing the saving are the real heroes while he was too weak and not good enough and needed to be saved in the first place. It`s stuff like that which IMO chips away and ultimately destroys any belief one has in oneself.

 

In the end, lots of people would consider a beloved pet "worth" saving as well, depending on the situation and the danger level. I get the trope in general but I don`t see it working here and I don`t see it as a compliment for the character or growth or anything in that vein. What I want more than anything is for Dean`s STRENGTH to be acknowledged and validated.

 

Love and respect are not the same thing and I have not forgotten the Purge speech, the denigration of every heroic or noble quality I saw in the character. Right now I prioritize respect so much more over love. Stuff like Cas saying Dean WAS a role model, I loved that scene so much. And was so unhappy it kinda got negated in the end with Cas` reaction to it all coming across so judgmental and "oh, guess, I was wrong".

 

Don`t care for "I`ll save you because you are my brother". I would a thousand times rather have Dean believing in his own strength (not bank on the true heroes caring enough to do something about his "weakness") and fighting the Mark of successfully in the end. And then the other characters professing their respect for that.    

 

And the small fry saves are nice and all but the character deserves something big as well.

[catrox14]

I don't agree that Dean has never thought well of himself. I remember back in s1-3 he knew he was a hero. He complained when people they saved never said thank you. He wasn't arrogant but he knew did good things and saved lives. I would argue that he even thought that going to hell for Sam was a bad good thing because he saved Sams's life if that makes sense.

But somewhere in s4 it turned into Dean self-loathing and it was never expressly said it was because of what he did in Hell, but IMO became more about how he let down demon blood drinking Sam and that turned into letting down soulless Sam because he was unhappy with Sam allowing him to be vamped and on and on. And it has never looked back until he did some arguably really bad things for arguably good reasons and because the outcome was horrible he views himself as poison. I don't see yet how demonizing him is going to allow him to see the good again.

[rue721]

But somewhere in s4 it turned into Dean self-loathing and it was never expressly said it was because of what he did in Hell, but IMO became more about how he let down demon blood drinking Sam and that turned into letting down soulless Sam because he was unhappy with Sam allowing him to be vamped and on and on.

 

He got broken/turned and started torturing in Hell, I thought that was why he lost faith in himself or in being inherently good. And then when he got back, it was to Sam being broken/turned, too (into a demon, by Ruby).

 

I think Soulless Sam creeped him out because that was basically a monster wearing his brother's face. Dean couldn't destroy the monster because it was wearing Sam's face, but he also couldn't pretend it was really his brother. I would think that seeing Soulless Sam walking around would also be a constant reminder that his real brother was lost and being tortured in the Cage, it seems to me that that would be an extremely painful thing to see (similarly, I think it must have been sickening for Claire seeing Jimmy's body inhabited by Castiel). I also think that made him feel very alone -- being with fake!Sam seems like it would have been lonelier than just being alone.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't agree that Dean has never thought well of himself. I remember back in s1-3 he knew he was a hero. He complained when people they saved never said thank you. He wasn't arrogant but he knew did good things and saved lives. I would argue that he even thought that going to hell for Sam was a bad good thing because he saved Sams's life if that makes sense.

But somewhere in s4 it turned into Dean self-loathing and it was never expressly said it was because of what he did in Hell, but IMO became more about how he let down demon blood drinking Sam and that turned into letting down soulless Sam because he was unhappy with Sam allowing him to be vamped and on and on. And it has never looked back until he did some arguably really bad things for arguably good reasons and because the outcome was horrible he views himself as poison. I don't see yet how demonizing him is going to allow him to see the good again.

 

I tend to agree more with rue721 that it was more likely the breaking down and torturing in hell that did it maybe along with the mounting losses they were having as time went on, and even though Sam told Dean a couple of times that anyone would've broken, * Dean likely didn't believe it. And this is going to sound potentially bad and is likely an unpopular opinion, but I didn't really got the impression that Dean felt like he failed Sam in season 4. I actually got the impression that Dean felt that Sam failed him. And this continued on into season 5, where no matter how much Sam tried to do better and show Dean he'd changed, Dean still didn't trust him or believe him. Dean didn't seem to be showing guilt about what happened or what Sam did and he didn't express any guilt over Sam freeing Lucifer. Actually he seemed to blame that all on Sam (as per his conversation with Bobby in "Fallen Idols"). Dean's little digs throughout the season about how Sam screwed up didn't sound to me like he blamed himself either, and neither did his throwing away the amulet. That to me partially showed Dean for good throwing away his feeling of responsibility for Sam since he felt that Sam didn't think of Dean and their family as important (which in my opinion wasn't true, but that was how Dean felt).

 

If it was about letting down soulless Sam later, that should've been alleviated by Dean getting Sam's soul back. Sam thought as much when he thanked Dean for that. But that didn't seem to help Dean too much and things got worse in season 7, so I tend to think more is going on there than that to the point that not even killing Dick Roman helped to erase things - which should've helped - nor Dean fighting his way through purgatory and surviving. So something else is going on here. I'm just not sure exactly what.

 

* (which to me makes the scene in "Sex and Violence" where they have Sam call Dean "weak" and he says "boo hoo" so it-never-should-have-been-done awful. It contradicted what Sam said before and did nothing but taint Sam's character.)