AwesomO4000 May 15, 2017 Share May 15, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mertensia said: You can grow up in a great, healthy family and still have imaginary friends. Sam's personality alone pretty much guarantees an imaginary friend; he's a reader who feels somehow left out at times. This is a good point, and I agree. And it goes along with what I was trying to say - except that it took me more words to get there - that Sully being in Sam's life was not somehow a reflection on Dean not taking good care of Sam or neglecting him somehow. I agree with your point here: even if for me Sam's nomadic life and situation likely contributed some, it was, as you said above, just as likely more a reflection of Sam's personality than anything else. It also made sense to me that Dean didn't quite understand Sam being lonely while growing up, because his personality is different. Dean seems more likely to look actively outward to try to belong, and he seems to be more comfortable interacting with and connecting with people than Sam is. Edited May 15, 2017 by AwesomO4000 Damn typos 4 Link to comment
rue721 May 15, 2017 Share May 15, 2017 4 hours ago, mertensia said: You can grow up in a great, healthy family and still have imaginary friends. 100%. I had an imaginary friend, his name was Digger. Really not because I was a neglected waif lol. Very happy childhood. An introverted kid with an active imagination is likely to have imaginary friends. I don't get this thing that it somehow reflects poorly on the family. A bit taken aback by it, to be honest. 7 Link to comment
Katy M May 15, 2017 Share May 15, 2017 6 hours ago, rue721 said: 100%. I had an imaginary friend, his name was Digger. Really not because I was a neglected waif lol. Very happy childhood. An introverted kid with an active imagination is likely to have imaginary friends. I don't get this thing that it somehow reflects poorly on the family. A bit taken aback by it, to be honest. Did he give himself the nickname Digger?:) 6 Link to comment
FlickChick May 15, 2017 Share May 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Katy M said: Did he give himself the nickname Digger?:) LOL! LOL! I imagine that is a reference to "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid". That was the line, wasn't it? 3 Link to comment
rue721 May 16, 2017 Share May 16, 2017 5 hours ago, Katy M said: Did he give himself the nickname Digger?:) 2 hours ago, FlickChick said: LOL! LOL! I imagine that is a reference to "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid". That was the line, wasn't it? I had completely forgotten about that! Watching Dead Man Don't Wear Plaid as we speak. In homage to Digger ;) 2 Link to comment
companionenvy May 16, 2017 Share May 16, 2017 (edited) Bringing a discussion of whether Sam and Dean are getting enough screen time this season from the Spoilers thread: I agree with Jakes that the brothers are still the clear central characters. I think the perception that they aren't comes from the fact that the show hasn't done a good job utilizing its supporting cast - which may be in part down to the Js need for time off, but it is the writers' job to work around that. It isn't that Sam and Dean aren't still the leads -- it is that because the other characters being given screen-time either aren't all that compelling or are stuck in crappy plots, every time we leave Sam and Dean the show starts to drag. To me, by far the biggest problem is Lucifer and Crowley. I think Crowley is entertaining when he is interacting with a more sympathetic character, but, for the most part, a total bore when he is on his own. Endless scenes of Crowley being slowly played by Lucifer are just placeholders -- and it doesn't help that Lucifer is a good 5 years past his sell-by date. If you aren't going to go to more of an ensemble cast - which wouldn't do enough to give the Js time off -- then you simply need other characters who can pull their weight while still remaining secondary. But then that would require not killing off every character with a modicum of potential, and writing plots for your non-lead regular characters that weren't retreads of what they've done before. One problem that just occurred to me is that SPN doesn't really do "B" plots for secondary characters, or at least, hasn't done so recently If we get a scene of Cas or Crowley in a MOW episode in which Sam and Dean are occupied elsewhere, they are doing something that ties into the season arc. Which means, often, that we're seeing them in scenes that serve mainly to either remind viewers of what's going on in the big-picture or to marginally advance the arc plot. Neither of these functions is one that tends to do much for characterization. If the show would cut down on the heavy mythology, we might have time for something like a B-plot in which we see Cas taking on a solo hunt or interacting meaningfully with a civilian or building a relationship with Claire. That might mitigate the sense that we're just marking time whenever we get to non-Winchester scenes. Edited May 16, 2017 by companionenvy 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son May 16, 2017 Share May 16, 2017 (edited) There's been a lot of discussion in the spoiler thread about how fans feel the writers have failed the main characters. Without involving spoilers, if you were given the role of show runner what storylines would you develop for: • Dean Winchester • Sam Winchester • Castiel • Crowley • Lucifer I picked those five because they're the current main cast, but if you want to write about ideal storylines for Mary etc go for it. Also, to avoid confusion / potential arguments. When talking about the cast I tend to use the following terms. "The Leads" to refer to Jared and Jensen. "The Series Regulars" to refer to Misha, Mark S and as of 12x15 Mark P, and then "The main cast" to refer to all five of them. Then I use the term "recurring" to describe Sam Smith etc. Edited May 16, 2017 by Wayward Son Link to comment
Wayward Son May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) Here is an update to my Appearance List! To the best of my knowledge this list is accurate and up to date as far as the season twelve Finale All Along the Watchtower. Some notable changes since my last update Misha Collins / Castiel has reached the 100 episode mark. Samantha Smith / Mary Winchester has joined Rowena and Lucifer in the 20+ episodes section. Dagon, Eileen, Max Banes, Alicia Banes, Dr. Hess, Walt and Rory have are all new names on the list. 200 + Episodes Dean Winchester = 264 Episodes Sam Winchester = 264 Episodes 100 + Episodes Castiel = 100 Episodes 50 + Episodes Crowley = 70 Episodes Bobby Singer = 60 Episodes 20 + Episodes Lucifer = 31 Episodes (including as a part of Sam and Castiel's hallucinations) Rowena = 24 Episodes Mary Winchester = 22 Episodes 10 + Episodes John Winchester = 18 Episodes Ruby = 16 episodes Metatron = 15 Episodes Amara / The Darkness = 12 Episodes Arthur Ketch = 12 Episodes Gadreel = 12 Episodes Jody Mills = 12 Episodes Meg (Demon) = 12 Episodes Azazel = 11 Episodes Chuck / God = 11 Episodes Lisa Braeden = 11 Episodes 10 or Less Episodes Abbadon = 9 Episodes Dick Roman = 9 Episodes (including his possession of Castiel) Ellen Harvelle = 9 Episodes Amelia Richardson = 8 Episodes Benny = 8 Episodes Charlie = 8 Episodes Samuel Campbell = 8 Episodes Ben Braeden = 7 Jo Harvelle = 7 Episodes Naomi = 7 Episodes Zachariah = 7 Episodes Anna = 6 Episodes Balthazar = 6 Episodes Bela Talbot= 6 Episodes Billie = 6 Episodes Claire Novak = 6 Episodes Edgar = 6 Episodes Meg (Human) = 6 (Including Possession) Rufus Turner = 6 Episodes Mick Davies = 6 Episodes Alastair = 5 Episodes Alpha Vampire = 5 Episodes Ash = 5 Episodes Chet = 5 Episodes Death = 5 Episodes Ed Zeddmore = 5 Episodes Jessica Moore = 5 Episodes Henry Spangler = 5 Episodes Kelly Kline = 5 Episodes Lady Toni Bevell = 5 Episodes Lilith = 5 Episodes Linda Tran = 5 Episodes Raphael = 5 Episodes Susan = 5 Episodes Uriel = 5 Episodes Annie/Dr. Gaines = 4 Episodes Christian Campbell = 4 Episodes Cole Trenton = 4 Episodes Eve = 4 Episodes Garth Fitzgerald = 4 Episodes Gwen Campbell = 4 Episodes Gordon Walker = 4 Episodes Michael = 4 Episodes Pamela Barnes = 4 Episodes Tessa = 4 Episodes Victor Henrickson = 4 Episodes Alicia Banes = 3 Episodes Annie / Alex Jones = 3 Episodes Becky Rosen = 3 Episodes Dagon = 3 Episodes Doctor Hess = 3 Episodes Donna Hanscum = 3 Episodes Eleanor Visyak = 3 Episodes Frank Deveraux = 3 Episodes Gavin MacLeod = 3 Episodes Henry Winchester = 3 Episodes Karen Singer = 3 Episodes Ingrid = 3 Episodes Jervis = 3 Episodes Samandriel = 3 Episodes Tommy = 3 Episodes Aaron Bass = 2 Episodes Adina = 2 Episodes Alpha Shapeshifter = 2 Episodes Amelia Novak = 2 Episodes Andy Gallagher = 2 Episodes Ava Davies = 2 Episodes Bartholomew = 2 Episodes Bridgetta = 2 Episodes Calvin Reidy = 2 Episodes Channing Ngo = 2 Episodes Daniel Elkins = 2 Episodes Donatello Redfield = 2 Episodes Efram = 2 Episodes Eileen Leahy = 2 Episodes Eldon Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Gerald = 2 Episodes Guthrie = 2 Episodes Jake Talley = 2 Episodes Jenna Nickerson = 2 Episodes Jimmy Novak = 2 Episodes Jonah = 2 Episodes Kate = 2 Episodes Krissy Chambers = 2 Episodes Kubrick = 2 Episodes Lenore = 2 Episodes Louise = 2 Episodes Mark Campbell = 2 Episodes Martin Creaser = 2 Episodes Max Banes = 2 Episodes Monroe Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Morrison = 2 Episodes Oskar = 2 Episodes Pestilence = 2 Episodes Rachel = 2 Episodes Rick Sanchez = 2 Episodes Ronald Reznick = 2 Episodes Rory = 2 Episodes Sarah Blake = 2 Episodes Simmons = 2 Episodes Tom = 2 Episodes Tommy Collins = 2 Episodes Walt = 2 Episodes Edited May 20, 2017 by Wayward Son 1 Link to comment
Katy M May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wayward Son said: John Winchester = 17 Episodes This one stuck out to me for some reasons. I got 16 episodes, BUT, that's only if I count Phantom Traveler and Faith, where he's only a voice on voice mail, and Baby, where it's Lucifer pretending to be John. I suppose I could get 17, if I also counted Long Distance Call where the crocatta is pretending to be John. But, those don't really seem like episodes I would be counting a character to be part of. I'm also sure where you're getting 5 epis for alpha vamp. I have Live Free or Twihard (if you squint), Family Mattes, There Will Be Blood, and The Raid. Edited May 20, 2017 by Katy M Link to comment
Wayward Son May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Katy M said: This one stuck out to me for some reasons. I got 16 episodes, BUT, that's only if I count Phantom Traveler and Faith, where he's only a voice on voice mail, and Baby, where it's Lucifer pretending to be John. I suppose I could get 17, if I also counted Long Distance Call where the crocatta is pretending to be John. But, those don't really seem like episodes I would be counting a character to be part of. Let me recheck the wikia and wiki and I'll correct this and / or explain my reasoning :) ETA: @Katy M OK so I've actually had to up the episode count. The reason I'm doing this is I checked out Cas / Misha's 100 episodes and theyve counted his voice appearance in Baby as one of the episodes. To keep the list consistent I'm going to apply the same to John. I'm not going to include Long Distance Call or Baby though as that was not actually John but creatures posing as him. This list also goes by the characters and not the actors playing them so JDM, Matt Cohen and child John are all included here. The new total I've come up with is: 18. I'm not sure where I got 17 from, but you are right it should have been 16 physical appearances plus two voice appearances. Full Appearance (Voice and Body Appearance) Pilot Home Scarecrow Shadow Something Wicked Dead Man's Blood Salvation Devil's Trap In my Time of Dying Everybody Loves a Clown (corpse) All Hell Breaks Loose In the Beginning The Song Remains the Same Swan Song (Flashback) Exile on Main Street (Flashback) As Time Goes By Voice Appearances Phantom Traveler Faith Edited May 20, 2017 by Wayward Son Link to comment
Katy M May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 48 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: Full Appearance (Voice and Body Appearance) Well you are certainly free to count anything anyway you want, but I certainly wouldn't include his corpse underneath a tarp on a pyre as a character appearance. Nor would I count the two voice mails just saying to leave a message. I also don't think I would include the flashbacks in Swan Song and Exile on Main Street (which I don't even remember him being in a flashback in that epi, actually) because it wasn't new footage. Maybe I'll do my own list and we can compare:) Link to comment
Wayward Son May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Just now, Katy M said: Well you are certainly free to count anything anyway you want, but I certainly wouldn't include his corpse underneath a tarp on a pyre as a character appearance. Nor would I count the two voice mails just saying to leave a message. I also don't think I would include the flashbacks in Swan Song and Exile on Main Street (which I don't even remember him being in a flashback in that epi, actually) because it wasn't new footage. Maybe I'll do my own list and we can compare:) Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to include voice appearance either. However, the show itself counted one as an appearance for Misha / Cas, so in the interest of not having one rule for him and one rule for everyone else I included Johns voice appearances :) . But you should totally make your own list! I'd be very interested to compare :) . If you're interested my main sources were the wikia and wiki :) Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 Brought over from the "Spoilers" thread. No spoilers: 59 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: I actually agree that the writing for Sam hasn't been stellar either. I feel the writers have been trying to give Sam the stronger storyline but really have problems with the execution. For example, I know a lot of folks loved Red Meat but, for me, the coming back from the dead and continued superhuman feats just took me totally out of the story. I would have felt they were ridiculous if Dean had been given that part of the story too. It was, IMO, written to give Sam some hero moments but the execution, so over over over the top, failed. I agree with you here, actually. There were some aspects of "Red Meat" that I enjoyed, but that component wasn't one, and I agree it was something took me out of the episode a bit... enough that I actually wondered if the original intent was that somehow Sam was supposed to be brought back to life because of Dean's taking the drugs and asking for Sam to be saved from Billie. In other words, I wondered if in some original/earlier version of the episode Sam actually did die, and something Dean did brought him back, but somewhere along the line that got changed, but couldn't be adequately rearranged. But I'm also equal opportunity in that regard. I was similarly annoyed by vampire Dean and all his over the top heroics in "Live Free..." I more enjoyed episodes like "Safe House" and "Into the Mystic," and yes "Just My Imagination." You'll just have to trust me that I did not think the episode was dissing Dean in any way - Dean even managed to talk John into letting Sam come: no easy feat! - because I really do love Dean as well. Quote As far as the Dean Amara storyline, when Jensen asked the writers for some guidance, they couldn't give him any because they apparently hadn't given that sl much thought. They were at least trying to flesh out Sam's story line.As far as the Dean Amara storyline, when Jensen asked the writers for some guidance, they couldn't give him any because they apparently hadn't given that sl much thought. They were at least trying to flesh out Sam's story line. I know I'm weird, but that worked for me. I sometimes like that some things are a mystery. And as I said, motivation is my thing. I understood Dean's motivations and feelings - even Dean's wanting to put maybe even a negative "meaning" on his connection to Amara - maybe even blame himself, because maybe that he could potentially fix - rather than the not knowing and having no control at all. Because not knowing why you are "connected" to a powerful being who has some control over you is scary! And where do you go with that. So weirdly all of the worked for me, as did Sam explaining to Dean exactly that it wasn't his fault, because even though Dean likely knew that deep down, admitting it meant not having something he could "fix," and that was even scarier than it being his fault (in character for Dean). And I found that whole thing fascinating and emotionally satisfying. As for fleshing out Sam's storyline, if you are talking about this season, we'll have to disagree a little there, because since motivation was important to me "The Raid" made the entire story arc fall apart for me. For me there was no reason that I could see why Sam would say "Join me up!" and then when the supposed motivation was revealed to be "because it was easier?" Wait what? Where did that come from. I literally did not see that coming nor did it make sense, so yeah, for me much of the arc completely fell apart, and for me almost no thought was put into Sam's motivation. Now that's not to say that Sam didn't have some growth out of it or that his character is not in a better place (and I like that aspect of it), but I don't think that growth was entirely earned by the arc, nor do I think the journey to get there was well thought out. Like at all. Quote In some ways, I think the writers/ showrunner have screwed both characters. Just, IMO, it's been more intentional with Dean. Heh. And I tend to lean the opposite way, mostly because the writers tend to make Sam wrong. A lot - even if they have to sort of make shit up to do so. And they do that so much that I can generally predict what's going to happen in the plot based on whether Sam will be wrong or not. And that's kinda hard for me not to see as intentional. 4 Link to comment
companionenvy May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 I'm going to try to make this the last time I raise this issue, but I'm still stuck on the idea that Sam made some major mistake this season -- except, perhaps, for not being sufficiently suspicious of the BMOL> For me, for something to be a major mistake, it has to have negative consequences. I'm not seeing that Sam (and eventually Dean) joining up had any negative consequences. There was no moment in which Sam compromised his hunting principles. He just took intel. All that would have happened had Sam not worked with Mick would have presumably been that the BMOL would have started going after the American hunters a little bit earlier. The BMOL could have bugged the bunker at any point, too, so I'm really not seeing where anything Sam or Dean did wound up being a problem. The ONLY preferable alternative would have been if Sam and Dean had decided to do an active investigation of the BMOL sometime much earlier in the season, which could have led to them uncovering how evil they were -- and deciding to act to take them out -- before so many hunters were killed. 1 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, companionenvy said: The ONLY preferable alternative would have been if Sam and Dean had decided to do an active investigation of the BMOL sometime much earlier in the season, which could have led to them uncovering how evil they were -- and deciding to act to take them out -- before so many hunters were killed. Yeah, that would have been so much better as a season long story. Action (to me) is usually preferable over reaction. And what we got this season was pretty much reaction. 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, companionenvy said: I'm going to try to make this the last time I raise this issue, but I'm still stuck on the idea that Sam made some major mistake this season -- except, perhaps, for not being sufficiently suspicious of the BMOL> For me, for something to be a major mistake, it has to have negative consequences. I'm not seeing that Sam (and eventually Dean) joining up had any negative consequences. There was no moment in which Sam compromised his hunting principles. He just took intel. All that would have happened had Sam not worked with Mick would have presumably been that the BMOL would have started going after the American hunters a little bit earlier. The BMOL could have bugged the bunker at any point, too, so I'm really not seeing where anything Sam or Dean did wound up being a problem. The ONLY preferable alternative would have been if Sam and Dean had decided to do an active investigation of the BMOL sometime much earlier in the season, which could have led to them uncovering how evil they were -- and deciding to act to take them out -- before so many hunters were killed. I totally agree about whether it was a major mistake or not. I think it was naive and somewhat foolish to leap without looking...again, but nothing really happened that wouldn't have happened if Sam and Dean hadn't joined up. But, I'm okay with that too. Sometimes you just make an error in judgement that doesn't lead to breaking the world but you wish you hadn't done regardless. 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: "The Raid" made the entire story arc fall apart for me. For me there was no reason that I could see why Sam would say "Join me up!" and then when the supposed motivation was revealed to be "because it was easier?" Wait what? Yes! I was completely lost when this happened because throughout the episode Sam did not seem to be impressed or taken in by what they were selling; he was only there as a courtesy to Mary. If anything I thought it would end with Mick admitting that they needed help due to the way they were totally out of their element when the vamps showed and maybe the Winchesters would show them the proper way to hunt without relying on intel and gadgets only. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: Yes! I was completely lost when this happened because throughout the episode Sam did not seem to be impressed or taken in by what they were selling; he was only there as a courtesy to Mary. If anything I thought it would end with Mick admitting that they needed help due to the way they were totally out of their element when the vamps showed and maybe the Winchesters would show them the proper way to hunt without relying on intel and gadgets only. My head canon is that the reveal of the Colt compelled Sam to join because he thought 'Well, shit, if they have this thing that can kill all but 5 of all the things, I'm going with them' which was reinforced when he killed the Alpha Vamp with it. Edited May 21, 2017 by catrox14 Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, catrox14 said: My head canon is that the reveal of the Colt that compelled Sam to join because he thought 'Well, shit, if they have this thing that can kill all but 5 of all the things, I'm going with them' which was reinforced when he killed the Alpha Vamp with it. True, but Sam and Dean have done okay without the assistance of the Colt for years so I don't see why that would be the deciding factor. If anything I could buy that it made him join up just so he could steal it back from them. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: True, but Sam and Dean have done okay without the assistance of the Colt for years so I don't see why that would be the deciding factor. If anything I could buy that it made him join up just so he could steal it back from them. Yes, this. That he should've nabbed the Colt and scoff as he went out the door. Even joining to keep an eye on Mary would've made way more sense to me, but of course then we couldn't have the "Sam's judgement was wrong" stuff. Edited May 21, 2017 by AwesomO4000 2 Link to comment
rue721 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 Way back when it was going on, I figured Sam seeing that Mary was caught up with "a bad crowd" would be enough for him to want to get involved (to have her back), but obviously that turned out to not be a factor in his decision after all. I thought Mary was an idiot for getting involved with them, but I understood her motivation. Sam...he didn't look like an idiot to me, so much as SUPER confusing. I just couldn't make heads or tails of why he was doing it. 2 Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Yes, this. That he should grab the Colt and scoff as he goes. Absolutely. It would have been more in character for him to reveal the Colt hidden in his jacket when Dean arrived at the end and telling him that they should stick around to keep an eye on Mary. From the numerous rifts that the brothers have had regarding keeping secrets I didn't like Sam telling Mick to "give him some time" to work on Dean. That was very OOC IMO. 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, rue721 said: Way back when it was going on, I figured Sam seeing that Mary was caught up with "a bad crowd" would be enough for him to want to get involved (to have her back), but obviously that turned out to not be a factor in his decision after all. I thought Mary was an idiot for getting involved with them, but I understood her motivation. Sam...he didn't look like an idiot to me, so much as SUPER confusing. I just couldn't make heads or tails of why he was doing it. See, I didn't think it was all that confusing. I felt like it was just like Sam said in Who We Are: he looked at them and saw how much good they could do if they could organize all the hunters to work together and use the intel and tech to make a better world. I also think Sam was very moved by Mary's desire to do something for them and wanted to help make that happen for her. 9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: Even joining to keep an eye on Mary would've made way more sense to me, but of course then we couldn't have the "Sam's judgement was wrong" stuff. The thing is, I don't think Sam was wrong...not exactly. I mean, I think he was wrong not to find out more about the Brits before signing up, but I don't think it was wrong of him to want a world free of monsters. Like I said, I thought it was naive, but I'm also extremely cynical in my old age. I think it's nice that Sam still believes. We need believers just as much as we need realists. 3 Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: I mean, I think he was wrong not to find out more about the Brits before signing up, but I don't think it was wrong of him to want a world free of monsters. I agree that I can see him joining up for this reason but after the events of The Raid it didn't make sense for him to be swayed into joining up considering that the Alpha Vamp was only taken out because of his hunting skills, not from anything that he had been shown by the BMOL. Sure they had the Colt but it would have been useless if Sam hadn't know how to make the bullets for it; otherwise they all would have been done for. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said: True, but Sam and Dean have done okay without the assistance of the Colt for years so I don't see why that would be the deciding factor. If anything I could buy that it made him join up just so he could steal it back from them. Emotional factor. He responded with some intense emotional reaction to the Colt. IMO it was that plus Mary admitting she stole it for them, so I think at that point it was 1) He went for Mary to either humor her, check on her safety, or to satisfy his own mild curiosity (or a little of all the above) 2) He saw the Colt and had a strong emotional, visceral reaction to this thing that was tied to his and Dean's life for so long 3) He was able to use it to kill the Alpha Vamp which IMO made him think "Okay, I want to rid the world of all the things' 4) IMO, he started to believe this was the best way to get himself and probably Dean back to a normal life which IMO Sam still wants even though he had begun to accept he might not get it. Edited May 21, 2017 by catrox14 Link to comment
DittyDotDot May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said: I agree that I can see him joining up for this reason but after the events of The Raid it didn't make sense for him to be swayed into joining up considering that the Alpha Vamp was only taken out because of his hunting skills, not from anything that he had been shown by the BMOL. Sure they had the Colt but it would have been useless if Sam hadn't know how to make the bullets for it; otherwise they all would have been done for. But I think that was what he was trying to say in Who We Are; he only saw what he wanted to see. He saw the Alpha Vamp was dead and it wouldn't have happened if the Brits hadn't strategically started taking out one nest after another. He conveniently ignored everything else. Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: But I think that was what he was trying to say in Who We Are; he only saw what he wanted to see. He saw the Alpha Vamp was dead and it wouldn't have happened if the Brits hadn't strategically started taking out one nest after another. He conveniently ignored everything else. Yes, I get that we were told that in the finale but having him join up after the events in The Raid and seemingly being impressed by their setup just didn't fly for me. 1 Link to comment
rue721 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 Just now, DittyDotDot said: I felt like it was just like Sam said in Who We Are: he looked at them and saw how much good they could do if they could organize all the hunters to work together and use the intel and tech to make a better world. It just came off as so nonsensical to me because the raid was such a shitshow. I think there was a major disconnect between what we were told and what we were shown. And personally, I just assumed that what we were being told was therefore BS. But nope! Guess it goes back to, "who are you going to believe? the BMOL or your lying eyes?!" ;) 2 Link to comment
DeeDee79 May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, rue721 said: It just came off as so nonsensical to me because the raid was such a shitshow. Exactly. Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 21, 2017 Share May 21, 2017 Just now, AwesomO4000 said: Brought over from the "Spoilers" thread. No spoilers: I agree with you here, actually. There were some aspects of "Red Meat" that I enjoyed, but that component wasn't one, and I agree it was something took me out of the episode a bit... enough that I actually wondered if the original intent was that somehow Sam was supposed to be brought back to life because of Dean's taking the drugs and asking for Sam to be saved from Billie. In other words, I wondered if in some original/earlier version of the episode Sam actually did die, and something Dean did brought him back, but somewhere along the line that got changed, but couldn't be adequately rearranged. But I'm also equal opportunity in that regard. I was similarly annoyed by vampire Dean and all his over the top heroics in "Live Free..." I more enjoyed episodes like "Safe House" and "Into the Mystic," and yes "Just My Imagination." I really liked Safe House and Into the Mystique also. We will just have to disagree on JMI. Just now, AwesomO4000 said: As for fleshing out Sam's storyline, if you are talking about this season, we'll have to disagree a little there, because since motivation was important to me "The Raid" made the entire story arc fall apart for me. For me there was no reason that I could see why Sam would say "Join me up!" and then when the supposed motivation was revealed to be "because it was easier?" Wait what? Where did that come from. I literally did not see that coming nor did it make sense, so yeah, for me much of the arc completely fell apart, and for me almost no thought was put into Sam's motivation. Now that's not to say that Sam didn't have some growth out of it or that his character is not in a better place (and I like that aspect of it), but I don't think that growth was entirely earned by the arc, nor do I think the journey to get there was well thought out. Like at all. Just now, AwesomO4000 said: Heh. And I tend to lean the opposite way, mostly because the writers tend to make Sam wrong. A lot - even if they have to sort of make shit up to do so. And they do that so much that I can generally predict what's going to happen in the plot based on whether Sam will be wrong or not. And that's kinda hard for me not to see as intentional. I am going to try and explain my feelings on the writing concerning Sam. We can leave Dean for another post.. This is my opinion only and I am NOT a writer so it probably won't make sense. I feel like in the writers minds, Sam is the main character. I believe the writers intentionally write him as a flawed hero (not the same as a tragic hero) and they do a really good job of writing the flaws. What they aren't good at is the journey from flawed hero to hero who has overcome those flaws. They never seem to lay out a coherent journey for him that I can follow. They go from one extreme to the other. Then, when the viewers get lost on the journey (I get lost), instead of fleshing out the story for me to follow, they just hit me over the head with the end product. For example, Sam's speech. IMO, the writers have made this mistake multiple times over multiple seasons. They jump from flawed Sam to Sam that has overcome the flaws without giving me the how. Then when viewers like me get lost and question the end, it seems like they just say " well it didn't work last time but let's try it again" And again, instead of giving us the journey, they pretty much start hitting us over the head with what they think we should see...hero Sam who has overcome the flaws they just gave him again. Like I said before, I don't think the writers have done Sam any favors by not letting us see him overcoming the flaws they did such a good job giving him. I doubt that makes sense to anybody...oh well. It just makes it hard for me to buy into Sam's character as easily but I know the writing doesn't bother most folks. JMO 1 Link to comment
rue721 May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: I guess it doesn't bother me that Sam and Mary never had their "moment" because I don't think Sam needed to forgive Mary, I think he did that forever ago. I think Sam had unresolved issues with John--which Sam got to address back in S5 when he told young John he forgave him--whereas Dean seemed to never really harbor any resentment toward their dad. I think Dean saw John as an innocent bystander in the mess and did the best he could, but always subconsciously blamed Mary for what happened to them. I think a little differently. Though some of it may be potato-potawwwwwto. I agree that whether Sam forgives Mary is basically a non-issue, if only because he barely knows Mary. And I don't think he has or ever had any expectations for her (because he doesn't know her and has no context for "what could have been" anyway). But IMO he does need to learn to trust Mary (if he should...if she's trustworthy). I say that because Sam was on his best behavior with Mary all season, and I just didn't get a sense that their relationship was really coalescing past polite near-strangers. Even though when they met, Sam cried and said she filled a hole in his heart, etc, so I'm guessing her return really did (or at least was meant to) have a big impact on him and bring up reasonably powerful feelings in him. But hey, I guess them building a relationship will take time. Hopefully Mary doesn't die before that happens. To me, it seemed like they were going SOMEWHERE with Sam's feelings toward her in the front half of S12, but then it got dropped for the focus on the BMOL. Which isn't something I'm super bitter about, but which I think was kind of herky-jerky and weird -- how it came off to me, it was like Sam's emotions were just stopping and starting in an improbable way. There wasn't a lot of emotional continuity IMO. Like how Sam saw the Colt and was all upset, but then that emotion apparently just went POOF by the end of the episode? I mean, I don't need a huge follow up to Sam's feelings upon seeing the Colt, necessarily, but I also am not expecting characters' feelings to just POOF away by the next scene they're in -- I need to see these emotions/revelations/etc that the characters express to have SOME continuity and SOME continued impact on those characters, y'know? Also, I thought that Mary stealing that gun and using her friends and family as a diversion/patsys in order to do it was a pretty big betrayal, which made it even weirder to watch Sam drop his feelings about it nearly instantaneously. But hey. Anyway, I also agree that whatever unresolved issues Sam had with John, he cleared them up back in S4/5. IMO his problems with John were pretty straightforward and were always out on the table getting picked at and fought over (by the whole family), so I think that once John was gone and they weren't actively fighting anymore, it was easy for him to just drop all those old disputes and issues. And I think that 90% of Sam and John's relationship and way of interacting was to be at odds with each other and to be locked in some power struggle, and there just wasn't a way (or a reason) to continue that after one of them died. I don't think there's really any deep bitterness there, though -- on either side (I think that John had more or less made peace with Sam by the time he died). That said, I think that if they were to meet again, they would lock horns within the hour, because that's the only way they really know how to interact. On the other hand, I think Dean harbors resentment toward his dad. I don't think he ever came to forgive him after he died, and if anything, his issues with him have grown since then. IMO John making the deal for Dean's life, and then telling him to save or kill Sam, was the final straw that broke the camel's back as far as Dean was concerned. I think that was just too much, and Dean was finally just fed up with the pressure and guilt he felt that he was under. And I do think he felt like he was under a lot of pressure and guilt, because he was very insistent with Sam about searching for John, and just kind of glossed over any problems that he might have been having with John whenever Sam brought it up -- he was still acting like John's lieutenant up until John's death IMO. It seemed to me that that attitude really changed after the deal and John's request about Sam. When he met young!John IMO it seemed like he was on the one hand very happy to see him again, but on the other hand, pained to see his father so innocent and with so much good in him. I think that Dean didn't actually expect to *like* (and respect) young!John as much as he did, maybe because he had focused so much more on old!John's problems/foibles/mistakes/etc over the years since John's death that John's good qualities weren't so much in the forefront of his mind anymore. And Dean was also the one who was crushed to meet "Adam" and to see Adam's nice life with his mom. Granted, this wasn't entirely Dean's doing and might therefore not mean much, but in Dean's Djinn-induced fantasy world, John was dead -- and his life with his mom seemed really pretty similar to Adam's, thinking about it now. Likewise, in the Zachariah-manipulated heaven, John was also nowhere to be found (at least not in a positive way). In general, based on all that, it just seemed to me that Dean had trouble focusing on the positive where it concerned John -- to me, it seemed that John wasn't in his positive fantasies or memories, that he was jealous of how John's other son (who barely knew/saw John himself) was raised, and that it took him off-guard to see so much good in John when he met him "again" (as young!John). What really makes me think that there's resentment there, though, is stuff like: Dean is the one who describes John as a shell of a man. Who describes himself as having to play father to Sam and having not had a childhood. Who took his time and seemed a little chilly with his answer when Cas asked if he loved his father (granted, that was when Dean had the Mark of Cain). Who seemed pretty uncomfortable when Mary wanted to wax poetic about John as a father when she first came back. The lines themselves come off as pretty bitter IMO, and then on top of that, Jensen's acting choices also make me see resentment and anger there. Like, maybe there would be a way for Dean to say that John was a shell of a man without it coming off as resentful (doubtful IMO, but maybe possible!), but Jensen also is choosing to act that dialogue with resentment in Dean's body language and his voice. To me, it really does seem like John did the best he could, even if his best wasn't always/entirely up to snuff. And I think that Dean does seem to circle back to that idea as a way of making peace with John and his choices. IIRC it's usually a variation on that old saw that he finally dredges up whenever someone else asks him about John. But it always comes off as grudging to me. I think maybe one reason why Dean isn't entirely able to make peace with John and their history by way of the "he did the best he could" idea (IMO) could be because Dean also feels complicit in a lot of those choices, and even if he could let John off the hook, he can't entirely let himself off the hook for the choices HE made concerning John, the family, his own life... Like, I think that he thinks in retrospect that he should have stood up to him more, or not been so influenced by him, or even had a better understanding on what was going on in general, then he really did have. He's resentful toward John, and toward his own former self for buying John's crap IMO. JMV. Edited May 24, 2017 by rue721 2 Link to comment
rue721 May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 (edited) ETA: To me, it seems like a "scales fell away from his eyes" kind of thing, where he bought what John was selling when he was a kid all the way up to when he was an adult, but at some point (when John made the deal, and made his request for Dean to kill or save Sam IMO) he realized that this was fucked. And I think that he is still upset that he didn't realize that it was fucked until so late. And not only did he not realize, but he unwittingly was a party to compounding the fuckery during all that time when he was a true believer. Edited May 24, 2017 by rue721 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, rue721 said: Even though when they met, Sam cried and said she filled a hole in his heart, etc, so I'm guessing her return really did (or at least was meant to) have a big impact on him and bring up reasonably powerful feelings in him. But hey, I guess them building a relationship will take time. Hopefully Mary doesn't die before that happens. I didn't mean to imply it Mary's return didn't impact Sam. I was just commenting that I didn't think Sam needed to have a moment with Mary and hash out her deal and what it did to him. I think Mary needed to hear he and Dean forgave her so she could start forgiving herself. I just don't think Sam needed to say it for himself; but I think Dean did. I'd guess now that they all wiped the slate clean they'll get to move forward more honestly with each other and we'll get to see Sam and Mary build a relationship now--that is if Mary doesn't die in the alternate universe first. Either way, I think Sam's at peace with Mary and has been before she came back from the dead. 18 minutes ago, rue721 said: I think maybe one reason why Dean isn't entirely able to make peace with John and their history by way of the "he did the best he could" idea could be because Dean also feels complicit in a lot of those choices, and even if he could let John off the hook, he can't entirely let himself off the hook for the choices HE made concerning John, the family, his own life... Like, I think that he thinks in retrospect that he should have stood up to him more, or not been so influenced by him, or even had a better understanding on what was going on, then he really did have. He's resentful toward John, and toward his own former self for buying John's crap IMO. JMV. I think Dean actually has made peace with John. While I think he looks back now and sees how much of a performing monkey we was for John at times, I don't think he blames him or harbors any real anger anymore. I think he just sees John much like himself, it wasn't fair what was put on him, but he did the best he could with it. Interesting to note that I think that's pretty much how Sam feels about Mary; she made some choices, but he doesn't blame her as much as sees her as a victim in it all, as he sees himself. Edited May 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 2 hours ago, rue721 said: And I think that 90% of Sam and John's relationship and way of interacting was to be at odds with each other and to be locked in some power struggle, and there just wasn't a way (or a reason) to continue that after one of them died. I don't think there's really any deep bitterness there, though -- on either side (I think that John had more or less made peace with Sam by the time he died). That said, I think that if they were to meet again, they would lock horns within the hour, because that's the only way they really know how to interact. Now this would really be interesting to me to see! I know other people have wanted John to come back, and I've been pretty 'meh' about it - but picturing adult Sam after everything he's been through going up against John? Oh yeah - I want a front row seat for that! 1 Link to comment
SueB May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 Interesting conversation. I feel all over the map on this. So... I'm going to put together a Winchester family 'matrix'. But since forums don't do spreadsheets (I NEED a spreadsheet), I'll do my best. Mary Winchester: Did Right: She's a good person, protective of those she loves. Feels guilt and remorse at mistakes. DID sacrifice herself for her family. DID sacrifice herself for the world. Did Wrong: Having made the deal with Azazel, she needed to at least prepare for year 10. It doesn't seem like she did. Also, her guilt drove MORE pain into her boys by being distant in S12. That was cowardly. Mary needed to face up to that. Corrective Actions: Seems to have owned the problem. Definitely needs to follow-up by STAYING CLOSE to the boys (if they get her back). John Winchester: Did Right: Raised the boys to understand right & wrong. HE did that. Trained them well in survival/hunting. Admitted he treated them like soldiers rather than sons. Sacrificed himself for his family. Sacrificed his entire life-style for saving others. Did Wrong: Never overcame Mary's death (this MAY be Cupid influenced but that is not definitive). Obsessed about YED and became a "shell of a man" in terms of being a father. Seemed like an asshole (Dean, clean your car...) and telling Sam to not come back. Corrective Action: Too late. But Sam and Dean seeing him as he was BEFORE Mary's death helped them to understand that it was the trauma of Mary's death that caused him to become so different. This, in an of itself, provided some healing for them. Dean Winchester: Did Right: Raised Sam, gave him as much of a childhood as he could. Has an innate sense of right/wrong that changes those around him. Did everything he could to protect his family. DID sacrifice himself for his family. DID sacrifice himself for the world. Did Wrong: Drank the Dad Kool-aid well into his 20's (but this was a function of brainwashing, so his guilt here is limited). Holds a grudge but getting better. Ignores personal agency to save a person (he's fixed that). Corrective Action: He's confronted his mother, he's in a great place with Sam, he appears to have made peace with his father (but that could be resolved more) Sam Winchester: Did Right: Grew up with an amazing heart despite everything that has happened to him. Had enough sense of self to try and be his own person. Forgives wrongs of those who are truly sorry without looking back. Would sacrifice himself for his family. DID sacrifice himself for the world. Did Wrong: Never got past the penis-measuring stage with John before his death. Compartmentalizes/rationalizes sometimes rather than deal with issues (a more grown-up version of running away). Sometimes both "too sure" and "too uncertain" of himself but working on that. Corrective Action: In a great place w/ Dean. At peace w/ his father (but that could be resolved more). Probably needs to really talk with Mary (I personally think a little talking-out would do both good). Just my assessment of the characters AS I PERSONALLY see them at this point. In general: 1) I f*cking LOVE all the Winchesters -- those GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL LUMBERING PILES OF FLANNEL WHO SAVE THE WORLD. 2) They all have flaws. MOSTLY stemming from guilt. Some from fear. 3) They are all loving, smart, funny, and BIG DAMN HEROES. 3 Link to comment
rue721 May 24, 2017 Share May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, SueB said: Did Wrong: Never got past the penis-measuring stage with John before his death. Compartmentalizes/rationalizes sometimes rather than deal with issues (a more grown-up version of running away). Sam's ability/tendency to compartmentalize is why I find it hard to believe that he is even capable of "forgiving" Mary right now. I mean, he says he forgives her and it's not like I think that's a lie (I think that Sam believes what he's saying). I just don't think that that version of "forgiveness" is meaningful, because I think that what forgiveness means in that instance (or what Sam believes is love, peace, and forgiveness toward her) is really just compartmentalization. If/when someone pries open that box again (that Mary is in, in Sam's heart), maybe Sam will be able to do what Dean did in S12E22 and ACTUALLY feel hate, love, and forgiveness toward Mary. But IMO he's not there yet. I think that her coming back opened it up again, but he shut it pretty tight once he saw the Colt (or around then, anyway). I don't think that the show was "together" enough that that was an actual character arc or even a character choice for Sam that they made consciously, but that is around the time he switched from being pretty openly interested in Mary and in having a close relationship with her to focusing primarily on Monster Hunting and the BMOL. He even initially went to the BMOL HQ because she said she needed him -- he went as a son, not as a hunter. But by the time he left, he was in the role of hunter rather than brother or son (hence the subterfuge with Dean and the reasoning that he joined up because the BMOL were ~so impressive~ and nothing to do with his mother at all). My...I guess head-cannon, is that I don't think he feels love and forgiveness to her right now, I think he doesn't feel anything much, because it's all compartmentalized (per usual with him), and he has decided that that's "peace." Not even saying that's a bad thing -- I actually wouldn't put compartmentalization on Sam's "bad traits" list, because IMO it has both upsides and downsides, and because IMO Sam can't help it. I mean, how does a compartmentalizer NOT compartmentalize? Once you're doing it, it's not like you can just access those emotions at will, they're locked up. I think that we probably will eventually see Sam have a meltdown with Mary, if she's around long enough, because that's usually how he ends up expressing himself (despite himself) in the end. And if it happens, it'll sure be interesting to see! Anyway, I don't think that Sam's problem with John really came down to penis-measuring. I think that John was kind of a control freak and needed to be in charge, probably because of his own fears more than anything, and I think it was actually a healthy instinct on Sam's part to buck at that. But IMO it's just too bad that their relationship calcified into a power struggle based around that conflict. That calcification is why I think that if John were to reappear, they would just end up locking horns again, and very quickly. 5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: While I think he looks back now and sees how much of a performing monkey we was for John at times, I don't think he blames him or harbors any real anger anymore. I think "performing monkey" is too harsh. I think that John had a bit of a screw loose, and Dean compensated for that (and busted his ass doing so), and that makes his feelings of complicity/responsibility for John's mistakes and John's shortcomings pretty complex. Even now, IMO -- judging by what he was saying to Mary in her head!scape in S12E22. I don't think he was being a performing monkey (when John was alive) so much as legitimately helping/propping up and compensating for John. Which I don't think he necessarily even realized he was doing, because I don't think that he even really had an a-ha moment that this was fucked until he found out about John's deal and the kill-or-save request. And even after that, it's not like one a-ha moment undoes a lifetime of normalization. I mean, IMO he was STILL unthinkingly absolving John of responsibility for raising him and Sam (and protecting either/both of them) when he was talking to Mary about him (Dean) having failed to protect Sam the way he would have wanted. (I am so curious about whether Mary picked up on that at all. She probably didn't? And TBH, very likely it wasn't intended to imply anything or mean anything other than what Dean was literally saying. Well anyway). My basic point is that I don't think that that kind of compensation and normalization goes away just because the person who was initially being compensated for and whose behavior was being normalized goes away. So I think that Dean's issues with his family, including/especially his dad, are inevitably an ongoing, evolving thing. YMMV. IMO it's like a native language, and the accent will inevitably slip out sometimes. To butcher that metaphor: I think Dean was/is very conscious that he has an accent, but it's from a language he doesn't even speak at home anymore, let alone anywhere else, and he has tried pretty hard to drop it -- so other people might still pick up on his accent, but he doesn't necessarily hear it when he himself is speaking. And I don't know if Sam can hear it, either -- maybe it (and Dean) is too familiar. To butcher the metaphor even further: I wonder whether Mary picked up on the accent or not? 3 Link to comment
auntvi May 25, 2017 Share May 25, 2017 2 hours ago, rue721 said: Sam's ability/tendency to compartmentalize is why I find it hard to believe that he is even capable of "forgiving" Mary right now. I mean, he says he forgives her and it's not like I think that's a lie (I think that Sam believes what he's saying). I just don't think that that version of "forgiveness" is meaningful, because I think that what forgiveness means in that instance (or what Sam believes is love, peace, and forgiveness toward her) is really just compartmentalization. Over the past couple seasons, Sam has had 2 major things he seemed to compartmentalize: Lucifer's return and the late Lady's torture. He had to "forgive" both fairly quickly after they happened, just because the writing forced him to work with them. I don't know if it was intended by Dabb & the others or if they just screwed up. I had a really hard time with the way they played Misha-Lucifer during the last few episodes last year. I mean, Lucifer locking himself in Sam's room and playing loud music?? The writers, and I'll blame the directors too, were unbelievably tone-deaf IMO. Jared has said he tried to use non-verbal cues that Sam was still traumatized by Lucifer, but it wasn't part of the story line. Then this season he had the 2 episodes of physical and psychological torture at the hands of late Ladythankgodshe'sgone, but we never saw Sam dealing with the aftermath. My head canon is that Sam's too tightly wound at this point, he's zen yet shaky. That if he keeps going like this, all the compartmentalization is going to implode or explode next season. I hope to see Sam as a full character sometime soon.... 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son May 25, 2017 Share May 25, 2017 (edited) A further update to my appearances list based on some feedback from @Katy M 200 + Episodes Dean Winchester = 264 Episodes Sam Winchester = 264 Episodes 100 + Episodes Castiel = 100 Episodes 50 + Episodes Crowley = 69 Episodes Bobby Singer = 60 Episodes 20 + Episodes Lucifer = 31 Episodes (including as a part of Sam and Castiel's hallucinations) Rowena = 23 Episodes Mary Winchester = 22 Episodes 10 + Episodes Ruby = 17 episodes Metatron = 15 Episodes Kevin = 14 Episodes John Winchester = 13 Episodes Amara / The Darkness = 12 Episodes Arthur Ketch = 12 Episodes Gadreel = 12 Episodes Jody Mills = 12 Episodes Meg (Demon) = 12 Episodes Chuck / God = 11 Episodes Lisa Braeden = 11 Episodes Abbadon = 10 Episodes 10 or Less Episodes Azazel = 9 Episodes Ellen Harvelle = 9 Episodes Hannah = 9 episodes. Amelia Richardson = 8 Episodes Benny = 8 Episodes Samuel Campbell = 8 Episodes Ben Braeden = 7 Charlie = 7 Episodes Jo Harvelle = 7 Episodes Naomi = 7 Episodes Zachariah = 7 Episodes Anna = 6 Episodes Balthazar = 6 Episodes Bela Talbot= 6 Episodes Billie = 6 Episodes Claire Novak = 6 Episodes Dick Roman = 6 Episodes Meg (Human) = 6 (Including Possession) Rufus Turner = 6 Episodes Alastair = 5 Episodes Ash = 5 Episodes Death = 5 Episodes Edgar = 5 Episodes Gabriel = 5 Episodes Kelly Kline = 5 Episodes Lady Toni Bevell = 5 Episodes Lilith = 5 Episodes Linda Tran = 5 Episodes Mick Davies = 5 Episodes Raphael = 5 Episodes Uriel = 5 Episodes Alpha Vampire =4 Episodes Christian Campbell = 4 Episodes Cole Trenton = 4 Episodes Ed Zeddmore = 4 Episodes Frank Deveraux = 4 Episodes Eve = 4 Episodes Garth Fitzgerald = 4 Episodes Gwen Campbell = 4 Episodes Gordon Walker = 4 Episodes Henry Spangler = 4 Episodes Jessica Moore = 4 Episodes Pamela Barnes = 4 Episodes Tessa = 4 Episodes Victor Henrickson = 4 Episodes Alicia Banes = 3 Episodes Annie / Alex Jones = 3 Episodes Annie/Dr. Gaines = 3 Episodes Becky Rosen = 3 Episodes Chet = 3 Episodes Dagon = 3 EpisodesDoctor Hess = 3 Episodes Donna Hanscum = 3 Episodes Eileen Leahy = 3 Episodes Eleanor Visyak = 3 Episodes Gavin MacLeod = 3 Episodes Henry Winchester = 3 Episodes Karen Singer = 3 Episodes Ingrid = 3 Episodes Jervis = 3 Episodes Michael =3 Episodes Samandriel = 3 Episodes Susan = 3 Episodes Tommy = 3 Episodes Aaron Bass = 2 Episodes Adina = 2 Episodes Alpha Shapeshifter = 2 Episodes Amelia Novak = 2 Episodes Andy Gallagher = 2 Episodes Ava Wilson = 2 Episodes Bartholomew = 2 Episodes Bridgetta = 2 Episodes Calvin Reidy = 2 Episodes Channing Ngo = 2 Episodes Daniel Elkins = 2 Episodes Donatello Redfield = 2 Episodes Efram = 2 Episodes Eldon Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Gerald = 2 Episodes Guthrie = 2 Episodes Jake Talley = 2 Episodes Jenna Nickerson = 2 Episodes Jimmy Novak = 2 Episodes Jonah = 2 Episodes Kate = 2 Episodes Krissy Chambers = 2 Episodes Kubrick = 2 Episodes Lenore = 2 Episodes Louise = 2 Episodes Mark Campbell = 2 Episodes Martin Creaser = 2 Episodes Max Banes = 2 Episodes Monroe Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Morrison = 2 Episodes Oskar = 2 Episodes Pestilence = 2 Episodes Rachel = 2 Episodes Rick Sanchez = 2 Episodes Ronald Reznick = 2 Episodes Rory = 2 Episodes Sarah Blake = 2 Episodes Simmons = 2 Episodes Tom = 2 Episodes Tommy Collins = 2 Episodes Walt = 2 Episodes Edited May 25, 2017 by Wayward Son 2 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter May 29, 2017 Share May 29, 2017 (edited) Bringing a discussion here from the Writers, Directors and the Powers That Be thread. 10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Personally, I don't think it was any better or worse to how they did it back in S1, it's just that back in S1 we hadn't grown weary of the discussion. I mean, they've been having the same discussion for 12 seasons just about different characters. I think it's time they stop worrying about, myself. We the audience knows why the character is off screen and knows Sam and Dean aren't going to ignore cases that crop up just because they're worried about their missing friends. I agree they don't give very compelling reasons why the character would be off screen, though. But, it's the same problem they had with John in S1 and a big part of why they killed him in S2. Why would John stay away from his boys other than JDM was only contracted for a few episodes? Plus, I think it's a problem that we never see what those characters are doing when they're off screen. I always thought it was weird that John didn't seem to have been doing anything except ignoring the boys' phone calls and pleas for help. I also think it's just as weird that Cass doesn't appear to actually have done anything in the time he's away. It's like they were put into stasis for a couple weeks and then come out when it's time to move forward on their storylines. I disagree that it's no different than what they did in season 1. Obviously, there was some difference in that the show was introducing us to Sam, Dean, John, and their relationships despite John not being present, but that's not what I mean. There was better dialogue to remind us John was missing, and when we weren't being reminded that he was missing, we were being reminded of what happened in the Pilot and 'Why Sam?', the other big part of the myth arc that would tie into why John was gone. The throughlines were much more layered than they are now. Season 1 - I won't include the Pilot or the final 3. There are some episodes in the middle that I would consider myth arc episodes, but I've included them, because they didn't have John in the presence of his sons, and it was mentioned in some way. If it's a myth arc episode and John is there, I won't include it. Wendigo - We have them going to Blackwater Ridge to look for John. He's not there, but they stay and work the case using John's journal, which sometimes acts as a stand-in to remind us that John's out there and missing even when it's not talked about. We also get a reminder of what happened to Jess and our first breadcrumb that something more is going on with Sam. *Dead in the Water - We do have the whole, 'The trail for Dad, it's getting colder every day,' and 'We'll find Dad, but until then, we're gonna kill everything between here and there,' at the start of the episode, which is arguably the first time we see this done. Phantom Traveler - We have Jerry bringing up their Dad as part of a normal conversation. We have Dean saying he wished John was there, because demons were a little out of their league, then the ending where Dean asks how Jerry got his number, and Dean and Sam listen to their Dad's voicemail telling whoever calls to call Dean. We're also reminded of the pilot when the demon talks about Jess on the plane and earlier when we're told Sam still can't sleep. Bloody Mary - Looking for John isn't mentioned, but comments that remind you he's out there come up, like, 'How many times in Dad's long and varied career (...),' and 'The Bloody Mary legend . . . Dad ever find any evidence that it was a real thing?' - again using John's journal as a stand-in for the conversation. We also get another glimpse of something going on with Sam that connects back to what happened in the pilot. Skin - Again John disappearing is mentioned when the shapeshifter!Dean talks about John ditching Dean. The whole premise of the episode is a reminder of what happened in the pilot as they're helping one of Sam's friends from Stanford. Jess is also mentioned again. *Hookman - We have Sam and Dean discuss looking for John Doe's fitting John's description in the FBI's Missing Persons Database and running John's plates for parking tickets at the start of the episode, and while Sam's been doing that, Dean has found a hunt for them to do. So, this would be the second time they use it at the start to segue into the hunt, but we also see Sam holding back with Lori because of losing Jess, a reminder of the pilot. Bugs - there were a few conversations about John, because Sam related to Matt. This gives us more insight into their relationships, but the 'I wanna find Dad,' and the, 'Well, don't worry. We'll find him (...)' conversation doesn't happen until the very end of the episode. Home - We have the something going on with Sam being a focus, but John not being there was also a focus with Dean calling him, and we see John at the end. Asylum - At the start, Sam's making calls to Caleb to find John. Dean gets a text from John. They do the case. At the end, John calls. Scarecrow - Picks up with John's call. He gives them a case, which segues into the case for Dean and introduces Meg to Sam, a reminder of 'weird goings on' with Sam. Faith - Sam tries to contact John after Dean's accident. No response. Route 666 - There isn't much here in the way of throughlines, but John is mentioned twice. Nightmare - Sam's visions were a focus, and we get the reminder that John's not there at the end of the episode. The Benders - John's journal makes an appearance as a stand-in for talking about him disappearing. Meaning that we get, 'Why would he do that?' after they find he's marked the area as one of interest in his journal, which is a subtle reminder that he's not there, because they could ask him if he were. *Hell House - Third time it's used at the beginning with Sam saying, 'Look. We let Dad take off, which was a mistake by the way,' and this segues into the hunt. Something Wicked - They get sent on the hunt because of a text John sent, and they're arguing about whether or not it's anything when we first see them. Provenance - John's journal is what gives them a case at the start. There is talk about Jess tying us back to the Pilot. * - John disappearing is mentioned at the start of the episode, and a hunt is used as a distraction from this. It is very hard to compare Season 1 to Season 12, because we're essentially watching a different show. The format is totally different, but I'll try anyway. *The Foundry - Sam brings up the BMoL and a redacted letter. Then Cas says he may have a lead on Lucifer. There is talk of Mary struggling and her coming in with a case. American Nightmare - Sam and Dean talk about Mary throughout, and there is some texting between she and Dean. Dean and Cas talk on the phone, so Dean knows Cas is helping Crowley track Lucifer. We see Ketch kill Magda at the end - without our heroes knowing, but it is a tie in to the BMoL part of the myth arc. *TOYBWF - Sam and Dean talk about Mary at the start of the episode, and as a distraction Dean has found a case. Sam mentions being Lucifer's vessel to Ellie. It serves as a reminder Lucifer is out there. CtLoAF - Jael, the demon, mentions Lucifer and Crowley being missing. *RND - Dean is playing a game against Mary at the start. Sam mentions looking for info on the BMoL. Cas immediately calls and brings Sam and Dean up to speed on Lucifer. I think this counts as a reminder Mary and the BMoL are still out there somewhere before we get to the case, which happens to be part of the Lucifer myth arc portion of the season. *Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets - There's talk about not finding Kelly or Rosemary's baby and then some chat about Mary. Then Cas comes in and says a friend asked him for help over angel radio. Regarding Dean - Since Dean's phone is broken, Sam says he'll tell Mary to text him in case of emergency. The same goes for Cas if Cas finds Kelly. Rowena brings up the BMoL later in the episode Stuck in the Middle (With You) - Cas brings up not being able to find Kelly at the breakfast scene. There is talk of the BMoL, and we see Mary going to them at the end. We see Lucifer at the end. *Family Feud - Dean's on the phone with Cas and says that there's no word on Kelly. Sam's response? 'All right. Well, we do have this other thing.' Mary and the BMoL are in this one, but that's not the case. - The Raid - Mary and the BMoL are in this one. No mention of Kelly. - SBHaH - There's talk of the BMoL at the end and Kelly/Dagon. Phone call about Mary being in Ohio on a hunt with the BMoL earlier in the episode. Lucifer is in this one. - Ladies Drink Free - BMoL are in this one. No mention of Mary, Cas Lucifer, or Kelly. *The Memory Remains - Dean's leaving a voicemail for Cas and mentions Dagon (link to Kelly). Then Dean and Sam talk about Cas, then Dagon, and then a message from Ketch pretending to be Mick, and that's what puts them onto the case. Meanwhile, we have the BMoL combing through the bunker after they leave. Ketch brings up Mary at the end. The Future - Kelly/Dagon/Lucifer/Cas are in this one. No mention of the BMoL or Mary. *TaTaTB - There is some talk of Cas and Lucifer Jr. at the start, and Mary's phone is the surrogate in this one to remind us she's still out there, but that's before she shows up later in the episode with the BMoL. Another talk about Cas and Kelly happens a little later too. Also, I think the reasons why John was off-screen for most of season 1 were pretty compelling, because we, like Sam and Dean, were following breadcrumbs throughout the season, and when we met up with John, why he'd been gone and what he'd been doing made sense. Edited May 30, 2017 by CluelessDrifter fixing a mistake 2 Link to comment
catrox14 May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said: - SBHaH - There's talk of the BMoL at the end and Kelly/Dagon. Lucifer is in this one. No mention of Mary When Sam and Dean arrived at the case scene, Sam was talking to Mary on the phone when Dean was talking to Cas on his phone. It was established with both of those conversations that Mary was on a hunt in Ohio and Cas was Idaho looking for Kelly. Edited May 30, 2017 by catrox14 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sam was talking to Mary on the phone when Dean was talking to Cas. It was established with both of those conversations that Mary was on a hunt in Ohio and Cas in Idaho looking for Kelly. Thanks. Fixed it. Harder to do when there's not a transcript up for the episode yet, and you don't want to sit through the whole episode to try and find it. :) Link to comment
catrox14 May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 Just now, CluelessDrifter said: Thanks. Fixed it. Harder to do when there's not a transcript up for the episode yet, and you don't want to sit through the whole episode to try and find it. :) I use the transcripts from this site. SuperWiki got WAY behind. http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural Link to comment
DittyDotDot May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 Sorry, but for me the mentions at the start of the episodes are no different than the, "The trail for dad has gone cold so let's go hunt a ghost in the meantime." Sometimes they're more organic than others, but that was the same back in S1, IMO. 36 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said: Also, I think the reasons why John was off-screen for most of season 1 were pretty compelling, because we, like Sam and Dean, were following breadcrumbs throughout the season, and when we met up with John, why he'd been gone and what he'd been doing made sense. I agree they don't give very compelling reasons as to why the character has taken off on their own, but I don't think they did it very well with John either. They started off with John being missing and they were worried about him. Then they found out he was just fine, just ignoring their phone calls because it was supposedly too dangerous to let them know he was okay, but not too dangerous to send them on random hunts. Then when we finally catch up to John at the end of the season, it's painfully obvious that John wasn't doing anything; he hasn't gotten any closer nor has anything to offer that they don't already know. In fact, without Sam and Dean, he'd probably still be out there trying to find Yellow Eyes. The thing is, I could easily forgive it in S1 because new showitis and all that, it's harder to forgive them for falling down the same trap 12 years later though. My issue with it isn't that it used to be done better, but that they haven't tried to do it differently at all in the last 12 years. 2 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 Just now, DittyDotDot said: Sorry, but for me the mentions at the start of the episodes are no different than the, "The trail for dad has gone cold so let's go hunt a ghost in the meantime." Sometimes they're more organic than others, but that was the same back in S1, IMO. Okay, that's fair, but I still have to disagree, because they only did that 3 times in the first season. We'll just agree to disagree. Just now, DittyDotDot said: I agree they don't give very compelling reasons as to why the character has taken off on their own, but I don't think they did it very well with John either. They started off with John being missing and they were worried about him. Then they found out he was just fine, just ignoring their phone calls because it was supposedly too dangerous to let them know he was okay, but not too dangerous to send them on random hunts. Then when we finally catch up to John at the end of the season, it's painfully obvious that John wasn't doing anything; he hasn't gotten any closer nor has anything to offer that they don't already know. In fact, without Sam and Dean, he'd probably still be out there trying to find Yellow Eyes. Again, agree to disagree. It was a mystery trying to figure out what was going on with him from the first message he left on Dean's phone. It made sense to me after seeing how John was depicted as a father over the course of the season for him to take off when he saw the signs of the demon, and then keep his sons at a distance while he tracked it/tried finding something he could use to kill it/hunted it. We followed Dean and Sam's story, not John's, but it always seemed pretty clear to me that he wasn't merely sitting in a motel room doing nothing but researching the odd hunt he thought his sons should do and nothing about Azazel that whole year. 11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: The thing is, I could easily forgive it in S1 because new showitis and all that, it's harder to forgive them for falling down the same trap 12 years later though. My issue with it isn't that it used to be done better, but that they haven't tried to do it differently at all in the last 12 years. I think this is going to have to be included in my previous agree to disagrees, because I don't think this has been a 12 year problem. I think it's much more recent than that, but I don't want to go through every season to count how many times it's done. It took long enough to get through 2 seasons, and I think the comparisons are pretty stark in the two I did, but that's just me. :) Link to comment
companionenvy May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 I think one of the differences is that John's disappearance was the arc plot of the season, whereas while Cas's or Mary's absences may be tied to the arc plot, they aren't essential to it. So, it is more jarring when the show has to find a reason to keep them incommunicado. Even in Mary's case, while the rupture between Mary and the boys, especially when she joins the BMOL, is built-in to their story, she is gone beyond what would be warranted by that story. There are at least two occasions -- the end of Asa Fox, where Sam tells Mary that he gets her need for space, but that that shouldn't mean they can't do lunch sometimes, and the end of the Raid, where Dean accepts her decision to work for the BMOL -- in which the relationship is left in such a way that it would make sense for Mary to appear more often. Instead, really without explanation beyond a weak "the Brits are keeping her busy," Mary stays pretty much completely away from her sons, even after they start cooperating with the BMOL. In general, I think one of the biggest problem SPN has is in its inability to effectively utilize its secondary characters. I know these are very, very different shows, but I compare SPN's use of characters like Cas and Crowley with the Americans use of its supporting cast. Both are shows with two clear main characters, whose relationship is at the center of the show. But even within those parameters, the Americans a) Allows both of its leads, Philip and Elizabeth, to sometimes develop independent relationships with other people that do not jeopardize the centrality of their own bond. Yes, these relationships occur in the context of their work as spies, but they often come to include real emotional investment. b) Has supporting characters who have their own plotlines that may have only a loose connection to what Philip and Elizabeth are doing. At some point, we can generally presume that they will intersect -- and they are tied together by the wide umbrella of espionage-related intrigue -- but the secondary characters, when the show is at its best, are strong enough to generate interest and sympathy even when the leads are not on screen. In fact, there are some significant characters who, because of the nature of the spy world, have never interacted with Philip and Elizabeth -- who may be entirely unaware of their existence -- even if we as viewers know that their respective missions are related. I am still usually most invested during P&E scenes, and some other arcs work better than others, but I don't feel that the time we've spent with people like Stan, Oleg and Nina is just marking time until we get back to the real business of the show. Supernatural has never, IMO, managed a similar feat. When Cas and Crowley don't share screentime with the Winchesters, they are generally just doing something to fractionally move the season's arc-plot forward, and it is fairly clear, to me, that a lot of these scenes exist simply to take the burden off the Js. If supporting characters, instead, sometimes got a self-contained B-plot, it would go a long way to creating a richer character world. 2 Link to comment
CluelessDrifter May 30, 2017 Share May 30, 2017 9 hours ago, catrox14 said: I use the transcripts from this site. SuperWiki got WAY behind. http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural Thanks for this! Link to comment
Wayward Son May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 (edited) According to the Supernatural Wiki the main characters have had the following deaths. Dean Winchester (2) • Killed by Hellhound (3x16) • Killed by Metatron (9x23) Sam Winchester • Killed by Jake (2x22) • Killed by his decision to jump into the cage (5x22) Castiel (5) • Killed by Raphael (4x22) • Killed by Lucifer (5x22) • Killed by Levithians (7x02) • Killed by the reaper possessing April Kelly (9x03) • Killed by Lucifer (12x23) What other deaths is the wiki missing? Off the top of my head I know they've missed • Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot (though these are arguable I suppose as they took place in a pocket dimension created by Gabriel if I remember correctly) • Sam and Dean's death at the hands of Rory and Walt during Dark Side of the Moon. • Dean's time in purgatory... Does it count as a death? Or as dimensional travel akin to travelling back in time or going to the Alt!Dimension? Edited May 31, 2017 by Wayward Son Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: According to the Supernatural Wiki the main characters have had the following deaths. Dean Winchester (2) • Killed by Hellhound (3x16) • Killed by Metatron (9x23) Sam Winchester • Killed by Jake (2x22) • Killed by his decision to jump into the cage (5x22) Castiel (5) • Killed by Raphael (4x22) • Killed by Lucifer (5x22) • Killed by Levithians (7x02) • Killed by the reaper possessing April Kelly (9x03) • Killed by Lucifer (12x23) What other deaths is the wiki missing? Off the top of my head I know they've missed • Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot (though these are arguable I suppose as they took place in a pocket dimension created by Gabriel if I remember correctly) Just my opinion but if Dean's 6 months in Hell here don't count because it's an alternate timeline, then his deaths don't either. 18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: • Sam and Dean's death at the hands of Rory and Walt during Dark Side of the Moon. These should definitely count I think. 18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: • Dean's time in purgatory... Does it count as a death? Or as dimensional travel akin to travelling back in time or going to the Alt!Dimension? I don't think this was ever presented as Dean dying. I actually think Dean said, during the discussion of Sam not looking for him, " I wasn't dead" in response to Sam saying that he thought Dean was dead. Link to comment
Katy M May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: According to the Supernatural Wiki the main characters have had the following deaths. Dean Winchester (2) • Killed by Hellhound (3x16) • Killed by Metatron (9x23) Sam Winchester • Killed by Jake (2x22) • Killed by his decision to jump into the cage (5x22) Castiel (5) • Killed by Raphael (4x22) • Killed by Lucifer (5x22) • Killed by Levithians (7x02) • Killed by the reaper possessing April Kelly (9x03) • Killed by Lucifer (12x23) What other deaths is the wiki missing? Off the top of my head I know they've missed • Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot (though these are arguable I suppose as they took place in a pocket dimension created by Gabriel if I remember correctly) • Sam and Dean's death at the hands of Rory and Walt during Dark Side of the Moon. • Dean's time in purgatory... Does it count as a death? Or as dimensional travel akin to travelling back in time or going to the Alt!Dimension? Sam was killed in Wishful Thinking and The Song Remains the Same. They both died in First Blood. 2 Link to comment
Wayward Son May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: Just my opinion but if Dean's 6 months in Hell here don't count because it's an alternate timeline, then his deaths don't either. These should definitely count I think. I don't think this was ever presented as Dean dying. I actually think Dean said, during the discussion of Sam not looking for him, " I wasn't dead" in response to Sam saying that he thought Dean was dead. Why would his deaths by hellhounds and Metatron not count? As far as I can recall they took place in this timeline and this world? I'm not sure how it could be argued they don't count as they belonged to mystery spot like alternative dimensions? And I thought the same about purgatory. The fact Dean was able to just step through a portal and come back without demonic or angelic interference suggested it was dimensional travel to me also :) . I'm fairly certain if you legitimately die and go to heaven or hell, without interference, you can only return to earth in spirit form as Bobby did in Taxi Driver. 6 minutes ago, Katy M said: Sam was killed in Wishful Thinking and The Song Remains the Same. They both died in First Blood. Thanks Katy M :) Link to comment
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