All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

With Lucifer for the first go round yes it took them a couple of years. But they did it the second time in a matter of hours and actually like 30 seconds with the Magic Egg and the spell from Rowena.   They did defeat the Darkness in a matter of hours. As soon as Chuck started dying the sun started burning out. Once Chuck was dead, the world was dead. I think that whole thing happened in a matter of hours. Maybe a day. That's why they had to do things so quickly. That didn't happen over the course of a week or even years. And it literally didn't take the power of God to defeat the Darkness.  That's the line that really confounded me. WHY IS IT THERE??   

Sure, they defeated her within hours "as soon as" Chuck started dying, they defeated Lucifer the second time "as soon as" they got the spell from Rowena.  They did not defeat either threat, or pretty much anything within hours of knowing that the threat exists.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

With Lucifer for the first go round yes it took them a couple of years. But they did it the second time in a matter of hours and actually like 30 seconds with the Magic Egg and the spell from Rowena.   They did defeat the Darkness in a matter of hours. As soon as Chuck started dying the sun started burning out. Once Chuck was dead, the world was dead. I think that whole thing happened in a matter of hours. Maybe a day. That's why they had to do things so quickly. That didn't happen over the course of a week or even years. And it literally didn't take the power of God to defeat the Darkness.  That's the line that really confounded me. WHY IS IT THERE??   

I think it's a fair line that works in at least one of three ways:

1) Until they played the "God card" they didn't get 'the band' together:  So while it's 100% true that God's "Shock and Awe" was an utter failure, without God showing up to help:
- Rowena would have been in Ancient Greece w/ Cleo arguing about how frizzy the humidity makes her hair (**see BTS note below)
- Sam would be dead 2x over: 1) he would have died in the dark fart cloud, and 2) Sam would be dead in the attempt to rescue Lucifer!Cas from Amara
- Cas may have been crispy fried in that rescue attempt as well
- They wouldn't have been told about the whole Light & Dark balance thing -- in fact, even IF they somehow managed to figure out that a shit-ton of souls would bring enough Light-energy to kill her AND they had banded together, they would have killed her and the universe would have been unbalanced. So "poof" goes reality.
2) The word "defeat" is actually more of an issue than involving God, because they didn't 'defeat' Amara, Dean negotiated peace between God and Amara, they restored balance and voila, the universe is saved.  
3) Only God, with HIS power, could defuse the Dean-bomb.  So, ultimately, they might have killed Amara, God would have died but Dean would have blown up too.  So... It's not much of a victory for the boys if one of the boys dies in the process.

Bottom Line: They tried all season to solve the Amara problem.  It wasn't until God intervened (saving Sam's life as he did) that they got the right mix together to solve the problem on the second try.

JMO, YMMV.

**BTS Note: The day Ruth Connel came to DCCon, for some weird reason her travel plans got screwed up and she came off of a Red-Eye and went straight to the convention (without TEA!.. the horrors).  It was a really humid day and she was lamenting how her hair immediately frizzed up in the unusually warm/humid spring weather of DC.  So... Ancient Greece would be really bad for Rowena's hair.  Just so 'ya know.

Edited March 29, 2017 by SueB
Forgot my 'fascinating' frizzy hair discussion

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck didn't really do anything.

Chuck talked Amara into stopping.  (Dean talked Amara into listening to Chuck in the first place.)  IIRC, Amara immediately recognized the fact that Dean contained a 'soul bomb' - and I think she pretty much neutralized him.  So, the Soul Bomb on it's own was NOT going to work.  Then Dean talked Amara into giving Chuck another chance.  But if Chuck hadn't apologized - chance over.  So I wouldn't say Chuck didn't do anything.  He had to be contrite enough to get through to his sister to forgive him.  If he hadn't been, no matter what Dean said wouldn't have been enough for Amara to stop.  

ETA: so yeah, they did need "the power of God" to stop the Darkness.

Edited March 30, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
power of God and all...

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Sure, they defeated her within hours "as soon as" Chuck started dying, they defeated Lucifer the second time "as soon as" they got the spell from Rowena.  They did not defeat either threat, or pretty much anything within hours of knowing that the threat exists.

I don't understand this. 

We don't know how long it would have taken Cas to die. It could have been 3 hours or 30 hours. Sorry Im just not seeing why it's different once they understood how to get to Amara. Why there is a delineation as to when the threat started and how long the ultimate resolution took?

[mertensia]

It's there because it's Crowley. How much credit is he going to give them to their faces? Yeah, not that much. 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand this. 

We don't know how long it would have taken Cas to die. It could have been 3 hours or 30 hours. Sorry Im just not seeing why it's different once they understood how to get to Amara. Why there is a delineation as to when the threat started and how long the ultimate resolution took?

Because with Lucifer the threat started when he rose, and they didn't lock him up in the cage until the end of the season. The threat with Amara started when they let her out and she didn't get talked down for a season.  I seriously doubt Cas had 30 hours, he looked like he was ready to die right when Crowley broke the spear, but they sure didn't have a whole season. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

It's there because it's Crowley. How much credit is he going to give them to their faces? Yeah, not that much. 

This makes sense. New head Canon accepted. I still have a thought niggling in the back of my mind that Crowley saved Cas for reasons beyond some latent fondness for Cas or only as a favor to Dean. The show emphasized Crowley being 10 steps ahead of Lucifer which makes me think he's also 10 steps ahead of everyone not named Rowena.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The show emphasized Crowley being 10 steps ahead of Lucifer which makes me think he's also 10 steps ahead of everyone not named Rowena.

I've always felt like he's 10 steps ahead of every one.  Just when you think he's doublecrossed and done for (by anyone) he always comes back and shows that he knew what was going on all the time and he was in really in charge. Which is part of the reason why, as entertaining as Crowley is, I think they should stop working with him and seriously try killing him.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've always felt like he's 10 steps ahead of every one.  Just when you think he's doublecrossed and done for (by anyone) he always comes back and shows that he knew what was going on all the time and he was in really in charge. Which is part of the reason why, as entertaining as Crowley is, I think they should stop working with him and seriously try killing him.

 

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've always felt like he's 10 steps ahead of every one.  Just when you think he's doublecrossed and done for (by anyone) he always comes back and shows that he knew what was going on all the time and he was in really in charge. Which is part of the reason why, as entertaining as Crowley is, I think they should stop working with him and seriously try killing him.

I figured once Crowley went all red eyes in S10 he would be back to being asshole enemy Crowley. It really bugged me in the hellhound episode that Sam thanked Crowley. Dean thanking him for saving Cas fine, they had the frienemy thing when he was demon!dean, so whatever, but Sam thanking him feels like a trap. Sam has wanted to kill him for years now. He wanted to stab him  in his brain in s9. Sam was going to kill him in S10 for Rowena and for his own satisfaction.and then in s11 they were enemies for the first part with the Amara thing and then they were team Kill Amara for world ending reasons (but I forget what he did exactly to help them. Zapping them around?)

As recently as the Rock episode and  LOTUS, Sam could barely tolerate Crowley's presence despite his helping, which as it turned out was for his own reasons. So Sam thanking him sincerely seems wildly out of left field to me.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It's there because it's Crowley. How much credit is he going to give them to their faces? Yeah, not that much. 

I didn`t like the line because I wanted some acknowledgment for Dean re: the Season 11 Finale and there Crowley goes and retcons it. But nevertheless, with how I feel about 5.22, you have to pry Dean`s solo win in 11.23 from my cold dead hands. No matter what Crowley or any other character says. I`m basically going "lalala, I can`t hear you" when it happens.

Quote

I've always felt like he's 10 steps ahead of every one. 

If the plot allows him to be but he had some epic blunders in the show as well. There isn`t really one character they have allowed to be consistently a great strategist like that and who only make mistakes because emotions cloud might cloud their judgment here and there. Not even Crowley IMO. 

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t like the line because I wanted some acknowledgment for Dean re: the Season 11 Finale and there Crowley goes and retcons it. But nevertheless, with how I feel about 5.22, you have to pry Dean`s solo win in 11.23 from my cold dead hands. No matter what Crowley or any other character says. I`m basically going "lalala, I can`t hear you" when it happens.

If the plot allows him to be but he had some epic blunders in the show as well. There isn`t really one character they have allowed to be consistently a great strategist like that and who only make mistakes because emotions cloud might cloud their judgment here and there. Not even Crowley IMO. 

This is the way I feel too.  Dean's contributions and past experiences are so rarely acknowledged I'm at a point where there really is no acceptable excuse.

As for Crowley, I can understand why they keep him alive.  He's the devil they know.   Sure he's a slimey little toad and a weasel but he has no plans (it seems) to want to take over the world or if he does, he doesn't seem to want to destroy it.   Kill Crowley and you never know who is going to rise up and take his place.  I find when they work with him they expect to be double crossed so they keep him at arms lenght.  As much as I love the Dean/Crowley bromance even i can admit that its completely one sided.  Crowley' has proven useful in the past, especially if there is something in it for him.

I think Crowley made a mistake intercepting Lucifer in the first place.  It was a dumb move not to let him go back to the cage.  Because no matter how good Crowley is, Lucifer will probably get the better of him and escape.  Because I imagine that is what Lucifer is trying to figure out.  I can see him getting out of the the Nick meat suit and looking for a new one.

Edited March 30, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think Crowley made a mistake intercepting Lucifer in the first place.  It was a dumb move not to let him go back to the cage.  Because no matter how good Crowley is, Lucifer will probably get the better of him and escape.  Because I imagine that is what Lucifer is trying to figure out.  I can see him getting out of the the Nick meat suit and looking for a new one.

He acted out of wounded pride. And Lucifer was right when he said "how do you think this is all going to end?" Sure, Crowley took better precautions then Lucifer initially expected but come on. Not one thing on the show ever stayed buried. Michael cast Lucifer in the cage and he got out. God imprisoned Amara and she got out. Abaddon was in pieces and she got free. And so on and so forth. It might take a good while but eventually, even if by dumb luck, the someone or something will break free.

I completely understand wanting your pound of flesh but it is simply not something a great tactician would do. 

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Abaddon was in pieces and she got free.

Only because Sam and Dean stupidly sewed her back together and then left her alone while they took a phone call.

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Lucifer will probably get the better of him and escape.

No "probably" about it.   Pride goeth before the fall, apparently.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Only because Sam and Dean stupidly sewed her back together and then left her alone while they took a phone call.

Yes, that`s what I meant, at some point something will go wrong. I mean, they dug her up and sewed her back together because they felt they needed her. And then the phone rang during the interrogation and stupidly they both went. If it hadn`t happened like this, it would have happened some other way. Crowley should have learned this lesson already but it wasn`t enough for him that Lucifer go back to the cage (where, lets be realistic, he also wouldn`t have been totally buried but better than any alternative right now), he had to satisfy his pride. 

[SueB]

S1 TNT Rewatch Review with Retcon Reconciliation (a tad late due to work travel)

I reviewed the first half of S1 HERE

Second half:

You can see some adjustment in the second half as the writers get to know the strengths of their cast and crew.

Faith is a watershed episode for the series.  As was reported in the 200th episode special, it was about the length the boys would go to take care of each other, it was about their moral code, and it introduced some of the series-level mythology (beyond the YED plot).  As Kripke said, it was also intensely about Dean.  Singer also called it a significant episode (same special). For me, it showed Sam being both hopeful and dedicated to taking care of Dean.  For Dean, IMO, it show how deeply his self-esteem issues really ran.  When he was letting the Reaper kill him to save Layla, that was truly disturbing. And it showed Dean as the skeptic and Sam as the believer.

The last three episodes provided so much world building! They clearly were mythology related and provided a semi- (OY! the pun!) closure to the series if it hadn't been reviewed.  Yes, they were potentially dead on the side of the road, BUT Sam and Dean stuck together as a family.  That last episode REALLY emphasized family and the lengths all of them would go to. The last three episodes also formed the Winchester family dynamic with a great deal of depth.  The arguments between Sam and John felt so real.  You could just see their history of fighting in that one scene in Dead Man's Blood.  And John tearing down Dean over the car condition.  Standard "Dad" thing to say but also a way of putting Dean back in his "place" in the John/Dean relationship.  I was VERY glad to see Dean push back in those last three episodes and still get quite a kick out of the look on Sam's face when he hears Dean tell John that what he's saying is a pile of 'crap'.  Nicely played.     

A shift happened in 'Devil's Trap' regarding Dean and leadership.  I don't know if it's because originally they wrote it as Sam and John working to save Dean -- and essentially gave John's 'role' to Dean -- or if they were trying to reflect that this is how the boys would roll when shit got super-serious.  But Dean was MUCH more "in charge" in that last episode than the previous 21 IMO.  

Sam (versus Dean) is the primary "relate-to" character.  Sam still has that 'relatively fresh from normal' POV.  He has the talk with John in Dead Man's Blood that attempts to bring out John's perspective. I think it changes in later seasons, but at this time, we see Sam's perspective.  We are, I think, supposed to empathize with how out-of-control the situation is becoming for Sam.    Dean is more of a action-hero in most of S1 but his vulnerabilities are starting to show. Something Wicked goes a LONG way in explaining Dean's character to both Sam and the audience.  We get his devotion to duty and that it stems from both love and a fear of screwing up.  We also see him overly critical of himself and Sam vocalizes that. It also breaks my heart a bit when Dean says that he wishes Sam could have stayed in the dark about the Supernatural too.  He doesn't include himself in that, just Sam.

The Benders is the last time I felt like I was watching an X-Files spin-off.  After that, the stories and the vibe of the show felt more unique to SPN than X-Files copy.  Note, I LOVED the Benders but apparently it's very much like X-Files "Home", and it feels like it.  

Retcon Reconciliation: Presuming YED remembers Dean saying he was going to kill him (in S3... which happened in 1973), I think that part of the reason YED may have gone after Dean was that he turned out to be a bigger pain in the ass than expected.  He definitely got the best of Dean in the past so maybe he underestimated him.  The demons were originally focused on Sam (as an asset) and John (as a threat).  And then Dean up and "kills" two of YED's favorites.  He should have known that there was more to Dean just because he had Angelic friends.  So, my retcon reconciliation is that he is particularly cruel to Dean and decides to kill him first because he was more of a wild card than expected.  He wanted John to suffer (while being possessed) and he couldn't kill Sammy.  

Bottom Line: I think the back half of S1 is when Supernatural became it's own show.  It shifted to both boys being equally important while also generating its own mythology.  There's a ton of world-building in this season that is never repeated.  It's a worthy bunch of episodes to watch.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Note, I LOVED the Benders but apparently it's very much like X-Files "Home", and it feels like it.  

Actually, it's not really. It seems to me the comparison keeps being made simply due to the monster being just messed up humans instead of something supernatural, but the tone, look and actual story are very different.  Home is all sorts of disturbing for all sorts of reasons. The Benders is just creepy and a bit messed up, but pretty harmless in comparison, I think. 

Side note: It took me years to watch The X-files "Home". Of course it wasn't allow to air at first because it was so disturbing, but even once it did, I was too creeped out by the tone of it to actually watch it. The first time watched it, I crept around my house in the middle of nowhere afterward locking all the doors and windows. Last summer I did a re-watch and was finally able to actually sit and watch the whole thing through. The effects are pretty cheesy now, but holy crap is it still creepy and disturbing.

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line: I think the back half of S1 is when Supernatural became it's own show.  It shifted to both boys being equally important while also generating its own mythology.  There's a ton of world-building in this season that is never repeated.  It's a worthy bunch of episodes to watch.

I love watching the show grow into itself in S1. It's so rare these days for a show to be allowed to do this, that I find it wonderfully fascinating. 

[rue721]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

The arguments between Sam and John felt so real.  You could just see their history of fighting in that one scene in Dead Man's Blood.  And John tearing down Dean over the car condition.  Standard "Dad" thing to say but also a way of putting Dean back in his "place" in the John/Dean relationship.

Maybe that's why Dean is always on everybody's case about anything fucking up the car, from the very start of the show. Trying to act like John.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

The effects are pretty cheesy now, but holy crap is it still creepy and disturbing.

This is a total UO but I thought it was sad, not all that scary.

But honestly, I don't usually find the human villains as scary. (Yet another UO). I mean, humans can be horrible but they aren't that mysterious or even complicated for the most part. So I tend to find human-villain stuff disgusting or frustrating or sad but not SCARY per se. YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

This is a total UO but I thought it was sad, not all that scary.

Not scary, disturbing.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

So I tend to find human-villain stuff disgusting or frustrating or sad but not SCARY per se. YMMV.

Like @DittyDotDot, I generally find it disturbing more than scary - so I agree with you on that. Law & Order did a few of those that were truly disturbing, in a good way though - especially a couple that had pre-teen sociopaths (the little girl one was very well played.) There are a few exceptions though. The most notable, I still remember vividly to this day... Back in 1986 (when I was around 20ish), There was a television mini series called "The Deliberate Stranger" where Mark Harmon played Ted Bundy. I was watching with my Nana in Florida, and she lived out in the boonies back then. When the series ended, without a word, both she and I got up and started closing all the windows (which were always all open.) Heh. I still gave Mark Harmon the side eye for a long time after that movie. He was entirely creepy and scary in that role, in my opinion. Another close example was Gone Girl - that one was scary in a cool way though. So the human-villain can be made scary for me, but it's rare.

As for a real life example... that's easier - I was in Gainesville, FL during the Danny Rolling crisis. One of the murders was a half mile from our apartment. There is no way to describe how scary that was to people who were not there. What made it different than the usual serial killer case was that one of the victims was a big, very athletic man, so if he could be killed, what did that mean for us regular people. Hubby and I were forever changed by it. To this day, over 20 years later, my husband can't sleep well unless he's sure that the doors are locked - even though we live in a safe neighborhood. He'll often ask me when he goes to sleep - he's an early to bed dude - to check the front door when I go back out to the living room. Before that, neither of us worried much about locked doors. I think I'd have a heart attack if faced with a real person like that, since just the thought scared us so much back then.

Bottom line - after that, it's hard for human-villain shows or movies to scare me more than that. An episode like "The Benders" never had a chance.

[rue721]

When it comes to real life, I think fate is a lot scarier than people. Thinking about what fate might have in store for you is legit frightening IMO.

But people? Just too pathetic and sordid. Not my thing as far as villains go, I guess. YMMV.

Yet another reason I can't get behind this BMOL thing. They're boring at best, boring and pathetic at worst.

OTOH I guess Supernatural tried to make fate a big bad by bringing God into the mix, and that turned out to be even more stultifying.

Honestly, when it comes to this show, I like people as protagonists and monsters as villains. Old fashioned and small-minded, I guess!

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

When it comes to real life, I think fate is a lot scarier than people.

You haven't been blessed with really disturbing neighbors, then, huh? ;)

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

You haven't been blessed with really disturbing neighbors, then, huh? ;)

That's the thing, I have!

Won't tell most of those stories, though, because they'll make you see me differently ;)

The contrast between people and fate, though, in my mind, is that people are generally petty and pathetic when they're being horrible. Fate will go balls to the wall and is just chaotic in a way that people on their own generally can't be and aren't. Like, violent crime is bad. But then there's stuff like, a couple women burnt to death in the highrise next to my street. The fire was BIG and the soot stayed on the building for weeks afterward. There was no way those women could have predicted that that's how they'd go. And it just happened because it happened, bad luck, not for any reasonable reason at all (not even a stupid human one). Or like, there was another guy who was very sweet and trying to be a good neighbor and be good to all the kids on the street, even the horribly neglected ones next door to us. He had a heart attack when he was messing with his truck and died before he hit the sidewalk. Everyone saw it, nobody could do anything, and then those kids were basically even more doomed than before. There goes fate again.

IMO, fate is CRUEL, whereas people are just petty.

That said, human-on-human violence is no joke. I went through a period around age 7 or 8 when I was terrified that I would be killed in a drive-by shooting. Some kid in my class at school said his dad was in prison for...well, in retrospect I think he said it was a hit and run, but as a kid I conflated that with drive-by shooting and was sure that was just some common thing that happened and I was liable to get caught in the crossfire one day. But I still had to go out and play and stuff so. I eventually just had to accept the possibility and move on with my life. Guess that's what taught me the meaning of Que Sera Sera ;)

[catrox14]

Quote

Naw but Rowena was just being Rowena. Can't expect better from her. That's Crowley's own fault for being lulled by her. It's a situation of, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..."

It was the Winchesters who "exploited" Gavin's noble nature and encouraged him to sacrifice his life. They're "the good guys," so Crowley had reason to trust them to try and save his son. (ETA:  this is what I think Crowley's POV is, not my personal POV. Well, kinda sorta my personal POV, too :P).

So I think Crowley would see their "betrayal" as more serious or meaningful. Rowena's betrayal is just ~family stuff.~ Their betrayal is an actual betrayal-capital-B. ETA:  he expected better from them.

If I were Crowley, I would pull a Rowena and play the long game, by getting myself into a position of trust with the Winchesters, making myself essential to them -- just so that I could leave them high and dry at the worst possible moment. That's what I THINK he's doing? But he could also lose his nerve and never actually pull the trigger on betraying them, I dunno. I do think he loves them in his horrible, demon-y way.

 

 

How did they exploit his noble nature?  They never talked to him again after Crowley absconded with him.  They literally knew nothing about Gavin to make any kind of presumption about his character and let's face it, he's Crowley and Rowena's kin. If anything they would be inclined to think he had no nobility.  They had no idea that he didn't feel like he fit in anymore.

They lied to him about Crowley being in ill health so they could talk to him in person.  Other than that, Gavin was 100% making his own decisions. He talked to ghostygirlfriend and learned why she was killing teachers.   He felt guilty for not being on the ship with her. He wanted to save the teachers she had killed . She was the love of his life and he wasn't happy in the world. He said he didn't fit in anymore. He even said that he was thinking the same thing about going back in time.

I really don't see where they exploited him. 

He felt guilty of his own accord when the only person who should have felt guilty was Crowley who lied to the boys. He made a deal and he broke that deal.  Crowley has no leg to stand on with this one with the boys, IMO and I think he knows it. 

[Wayward Son]

I'm rewatching Pilot and it got me thinking on a general issue. 

I think I've said it before, but I don't get the complaints of those who feel that because Mary has been out of hunting for a while she should be utterly incompetent as a result. 

IMO in terms of experience she's no different than season one Sam who was shown to be no less capable than Dean at hunting low level creatures such as vampires, wendigos etc despite the break from hunting. And we haven't seen Mary go on a solo hunt for any creature above these ones. 

I've seen people argue back that they had a rougher childhood than Mary and therefore are innately better. In some ways this is definitely true for instance Samuel and Deanna seemed to have offered her a stable home and schooling. 

However, I'm not so sure this is the same in terms of their actual hunting experience. During the Pilot Sam expresses surprise that "Dad let you (Dean) go on a hunting trip by yourself?" which suggests he hadn't by the time Sam left when Dean was twenty two. This suggests to me that the boys weren't thrown into the deep end of the action any more than Mary was growing up. 

 

Are there any any references and flashbacks since that contradict this? As far as I can recall pretty much every hunt they were on they were either kept out of the action entirely i.e left in a motel room or with friends, or they went to assist John, but the actual nature of that assistance is vague. 

[rue721]

58 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

If the writers really wanted to confuse things (or maybe settle them?) ... Henry W. used a blood spell to bring him to his grandchildren.  Rowena is a powerful witch and I'm guessing either knows the spell or can figure it out from MoL stuff.  And she's Gavin's blood (as opposed to Crowley, who's in a different meatsuit.) 

They also know the date, location (and probably time) the ship went down. So... Rowena can pull Gavin from the ship right before it sinks.  I don't think she can pull the girlfriend, though--but Gavin being there with her up to the end will save her from turning vengeful, so that won't get undone.  

Of course, that still leaves an extra person in the 21st century, but that didn't seem to bother anyone before.  

Maybe that should be the next spinoff--Gavin MacLeod in the 21st century.  Crowley and Rowena can be semi-regulars.  I might actually watch that.

She could save Gavin, but she won't, because she wanted Gavin to die (tragically), as an FU to Crowley. I mean really, I don't see why they couldn't just rescue the GF at the last possible moment, too. I mean, just have Gavin AND the girlfriend living in the 21st century, and that solves Gavin's loneliness problem, too.

Anyway, I think Rowena also wanted Crowley to know that it was basically his fault that Gavin was dead, in that she wanted Crowley to have to watch him go to his death, and also wanted to fan the flames of any suspicion Crowley could have had that if Gavin had had nothing to do with Crowley, he might have been spared. (Which IMO he might have been, in that if Gavin weren't Crowley's son, the Winchesters probably would have fought harder for him).

That's what I got from that last scene Rowena and Crowley had together at the bus station, anyway.

I felt bad and also exasperated toward Gavin, because WHY did he not push at least somewhat harder to find a solution that didn't involve him sacrificing his own life? I felt like all of them -- including Gavin! -- jumped to the "just kill Gavin" solution WAY too fast and were WAY too OK with it.

Edited April 4, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I mean really, I don't see why they couldn't just rescue the GF at the last possible moment, too. I mean, just have Gavin AND the girlfriend living in the 21st century, and that solves Gavin's loneliness problem, too.

Personally, that sounds like a big ole slippery slope. So, we save Gavin and the girlfriend, then what else does that alter? Do more people die in the present? So, then do we go change more stuff in the past trying to fix the present? Where does it stop? At what point to we own up to the fact that Gavin was supposed to die 200 years in the past. That was his fate. It's a sucky fate, but Gavin did not belong in the present and taking him out of the timeline caused a bunch of consequences that could only be reversed by Gavin accepting his fate was to die on that ship.

IMO, no one corrupted or exploited Gavin. Gavin realized a mess was made and decided to clean it up. Sam and Dean realized it was probably the only solution that would fix everything and Rowena may have used the situation so she could twist the knife into Crowley a bit, but no one manipulated Gavin, IMO. It was his decision to make and he made it of his own free will.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I think I've said it before, but I don't get the complaints of those who feel that because Mary has been out of hunting for a while she should be utterly incompetent as a result. 

IMO in terms of experience she's no different than season one Sam who was shown to be no less capable than Dean at hunting low level creatures such as vampires, wendigos etc despite the break from hunting. And we haven't seen Mary go on a solo hunt for any creature above these ones. 

I agree. Mary's skill set should be the same as the day she died.

Edited April 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think I've said it before, but I don't get the complaints of those who feel that because Mary has been out of hunting for a while she should be utterly incompetent as a result. 

IMO when the boys encountered her in their trips back in time she was certainly a competent hunter but she was also reluctant to embrace the life as her father had done. Also her stating that she never wanted the same for her children leads the viewer to believe that she had shunned the life after she had married a non-hunter and started a family of her own. We've been given much backstory of John being the laser focused obsessed hunter but nothing to suggest that Mary was even remotely the same. Sure she may be still retain some of the skills that were drilled into her but these facts would lead one to believe that they would be more than a little bit rusty. How could she be the "best Winchester" after over 30 years out of practice outside of the writers wanting to build her up?

Edited April 4, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

IMO when the boys encountered her in their trips back in time she was certainly a competent hunter but she was also reluctant to embrace the life as her father had done. Also her stating that she never wanted the same for her children leads the viewer to believe that she had shunned the life after she had married a non-hunter and started a family of her own. We've been given much backstory of John being the laser focused obsessed hunter but nothing to suggest that Mary was even remotely the same. Sure she may be still retain some of the skills that were drilled into her but these facts would lead one to believe that they would be more than a little bit rusty. How could she be the "best Winchester" after over 30 years out of practice outside of the writers wanting to build her up?

I would add to that, that Sam and Dean are much better hunters now than they were in season 1.  Especially Sam.  Sam WAS rusty at the beginning of Season 1.  Not overly so, but you could definitely tell that Dean was the superior hunter back then.  So, it doesn't make much sense to me that Mary after a 10 year break from hunting in which she apparently did hunt, yet was able to not ever get hurt beyond what she could explain by being a SAHM, oh wait never mind, I guess she is the best hunter ever.

IMO, it doesn't help that the actress is hovering around 50 when Mary was 29 when she died.  I'm not trying to be ageist, as I'm in my 40s myself, but I could probably more easily believe her being a better hunter than her sons if she were actually younger than them and still had 20s or 30s reflexes and stamina. 

[DittyDotDot]

50 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

How could she be the "best Winchester" after over 30 years out of practice outside of the writers wanting to build her up?

I don't think she is the best Winchester, nor do I think the writers think that. Ketch said that--you know the crazy psychopath--and from his perspective he might believe that, but I'm not sure he's the most reliable narrator or that his perspective is truth.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think she is the best Winchester, nor do I think the writers think that. Ketch said that--you know the crazy psychopath--and from his perspective he might believe that, but I'm not sure he's the most reliable narrator or that his perspective is truth.

It's true that Ketch was the only one to state that but events following have shown the boys signing up to the BMOL's practices ( albeit reluctant or eager ) which came on the heels of a fight in which their mother was a part of and the overall narrative hasn't given us anything to show that Ketch's viewpoint is just biased in her favor as of yet. For those reasons I choose to believe that this is the narrative that the writers have chosen to take due to her being the elder Winchester until the writing states otherwise.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

At what point to we own up to the fact that Gavin was supposed to die 200 years in the past. That was his fate. It's a sucky fate, but Gavin did not belong in the present and taking him out of the timeline caused a bunch of consequences that could only be reversed by Gavin accepting his fate was to die on that ship.

Maybe dying on the ship wasn't meant to be his fate, though. Maybe his fate was meant to be that he was transported into the 21st century. Maybe that was Fiona's fate, too.

Or maybe it was the 21st century Scout Leader's fate to die and now that Fiona isn't a vengeful ghost and he is going to live longer, that's going to screw things up in the future.

I mean, there's just no way to know what fate really has in store. It's a mystery.

I think I said so in the episode thread, but I wish that they had transported him into the past, only to discover that now both he and Fiona are angry ghosts with unfinished business. IMO that was always at least as possible as it was that him going back and them both dying tragically would be a "happy ending." But I'm a little twisted, I guess.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Gavin realized a mess was made and decided to clean it up. Sam and Dean realized it was probably the only solution that would fix everything and Rowena may have used the situation so she could twist the knife into Crowley a bit, but no one manipulated Gavin, IMO. It was his decision to make and he made it of his own free will.

He made the choice himself, but he was a fool. There was clearly nobody there who gave a shit about him, and he didn't even bother to stand up for himself! That's why I half feel bad for him and half am just exasperated.

I also thought it was shitty for Fiona. If they were going back in time anyway, they could have tried to help her out a little more, too.

I dunno, to me they definitely gave up on their problem-solving extraordinarily easily. If I were Crowley, I would be furious, and would feel that Gavin was taken advantage of. He's got a sweet, naive nature (apparently), and they took advantage of that by encouraging him to kill himself. And Crowley's not exactly a forgiving person, so I would think he'd have some kind of vengeance up his sleeve.

But maybe not. I mean, ultimately, maybe he loves the Winchesters or even Rowena significantly more than Gavin -- who knows.

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Ketch said that--you know the crazy psychopath--and from his perspective he might believe that, but I'm not sure he's the most reliable narrator or that his perspective is truth.

I mean, I wrote off what he was saying because he was buttering Mary up. He wants her to do stuff and to work with him, so he's going to say nice things to her.

Also, who knows, maybe he has a crush on her, and doesn't see her with clear eyes because of that. Plus, it's not like she's a TERRIBLE hunter, she probably actually is one of the best he's seen.

But in any case, I don't think we're supposed to take anything he says or even seems to think as the gospel.

Plus, what's Ketch's story? Is he actually a psychopath or just super weird or some kind of supernatural or granted supernatural powers in some way (evil!Slayer-style)?

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I mean, I wrote off what he was saying because he was buttering Mary up. He wants her to do stuff and to work with him, so he's going to say nice things to her.

But wasn't this what he stated to Mick? I could buy this if he said this to Mary but I took it as his genuine thoughts since it was said while discussing Sam and Dean in comparison.

[rue721]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

But wasn't this what he stated to Mick? I could buy this if he said this to Mary but I took it as his genuine thoughts since it was said while discussing Sam and Dean in comparison.

I was thinking of the time he told Mary she was the best. But maybe I'm forgetting some other time when he was talking to Mick?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

here was clearly nobody there who gave a shit about him, and he didn't even bother to stand up for himself! That's why I half feel bad for him and half am just exasperated.

This whole stupid thing is on Crowley, Abaddon and even Gavin, who  could have insisted on being sent back to his time.  But he didn't because the ship was going to sink and he didn't want to die.  He was all excited when he found out that Crowley was the King of Hell and he thought that made him the Prince of Hell.  He was trying to negotiate with Crowley to make sure he never had to go to Hell no matter what he did.  So, really Gavin was no peach. So now he got a chance to be a little heroic, he opted in to help course correct.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I was thinking of the time he told Mary she was the best. But maybe I'm forgetting some other time when he was talking to Mick?

It was when Mick told him that the elders wanted all of Winchesters on board and Ketch said that they didn't need Sam and Dean because they already had the best Winchester.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Plus, it's not like she's a TERRIBLE hunter, she probably actually is one of the best he's seen.

I think it's very likely that this is a big factor.  If the BMoL really have pretty much eliminated 'the monster threat' on the isle of Great Britain, then there's not much hunting to be done, is there?  Couple that with how we were shown that they operate: the borders are all warded so they are 'notified' when a monster tries to get in, a team rounds it up and it is dispatched with what I would call clinical efficiency.  That's very different from the situation in the US.  Hunting  monsters guerrilla warfare style requires a different skill set.  One that the current 'hunters' in the UK probably do not possess, as they are used to being spoon fed their marching orders.  

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It was when Mick told him that the elders wanted all of Winchesters on board and Ketch said that they didn't need Sam and Dean because they already had the best Winchester.

Ah OK!

I dunno, maybe he just didn't think he could work with Sam and Dean. Maybe he thought they'd overshadow him or boss him or just dislike him. Also, maybe he really does have a crush on Mary!

In any case, I don't think the show has tried to make us believe that Mary is a better hunter than Sam or Dean. Even Mary scoffed when Ketch floated the idea to her, and she's been second-string/backup on all the hunts she's done with them. (ETA:  "them" meaning her sons).

Maybe the show hasn't been clear about whether Ketch actually respects her as much as he says he does, but I do think the show has been clear that Mary isn't actually the strongest hunter in the family ATM. YMMV.

Edited April 5, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I was thinking of the time he told Mary she was the best. But maybe I'm forgetting some other time when he was talking to Mick?

At the beginning of The Raid, Mick said the old men wanted Sam and Dean on board and Ketch said they already had the "best" Winchester... .

Of course Ketch thinks Mary is the best, she signed up to work with them and does what she's told. Sam and Dean, on the other hand, were continually telling them to piss off at that time. Plus, Ketch has no basis to make that statement anyway because at that point he'd barely had two conversations with Sam and Dean and doesn't know a damn thing about their capabilities.

I mean, it's like me saying Mac is the best computer on the market without having any experience with any other computer. Just because I think that's the case doesn't mean that it's actually true.

However, IMO, they've continually shown us that Mary is not a super hunter, but is in over her head more often than not. She's smart and knows just enough to be dangerous, but every hunt she's been a part of has had massive failures due to her not doing her homework and/or being overconfident in the tech. IMO, the writers aren't telling us Mary is the best, but telling us that Ketch is an idiot. I mean, even Crowley knows not to underestimate Sam and Dean.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It was when Mick told him that the elders wanted all of Winchesters on board and Ketch said that they didn't need Sam and Dean because they already had the best Winchester.

Yup. So I believe Ketch really does think she is the best. 

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Gavin, who  could have insisted on being sent back to his time.  But he didn't because the ship was going to sink and he didn't want to die.  He was all excited when he found out that Crowley was the King of Hell and he thought that made him the Prince of Hell.  He was trying to negotiate with Crowley to make sure he never had to go to Hell no matter what he did.  So, really Gavin was no peach.

What's wrong with trying to keep from dying and trying to keep from going to hell, though? Those seem like really reasonable things to do!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, IMO, they've continually shown us that Mary is not a super hunter, but is in over her head more often than not. She's smart and knows just enough to be dangerous, but every hunt she's been a part of has had massive failures due to her not doing her homework and/or being overconfident in the tech.

Even though some viewers see her in this way, I see a whole LOT of chatter on SM sites and at other forums and comments sections, that is not NOT the perception of the entire audience. There are comments that Mary is awesome and she's a badass. and it's all FUCK YEAH, MARY! Even  The CW_SPN account tweets that Mary is an awesome hunter.

So I really do think the narrative wants the audience to believe that Mary is an awesome Winchester hunter and that  Ketch fully believes that she is.  He had no real motive for telling Mick that Mary was the best Winchester,

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, the writers aren't telling us Mary is the best, but telling us that Ketch is an idiot. I mean, even Crowley knows not to underestimate Sam and Dean.

I can respect your opinion but thus far the writers have shown that Ketch is a ruthless and efficient " fixer" . The fact that he's a psychotic idiot is based on viewer interpretation. I agree with you but I still feel that the writing states otherwise. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What's wrong with trying to keep from dying and trying to keep from going to hell, though? Those seem like really reasonable things to do!

Why do you think Gavin went to Hell?

47 minutes ago, rue721 said:

He made the choice himself, but he was a fool. There was clearly nobody there who gave a shit about him, and he didn't even bother to stand up for himself! That's why I half feel bad for him and half am just exasperated.

As I recall, it was Gavin's idea to send him back. Didn't he say he didn't belong in the present? How is that not standing up for himself?

But, sending him to the past doesn't mean he died, necessarily. I mean, knowing what he knew, he could've taken Fiona and boarded a different ship or not left Scotland at all or any numerous things. All Sam and Dean know is that Fiona didn't become a vengeful spirit. They could've lived a perfectly long lives, for all we know?

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Why do you think Gavin went to Hell?

I was responding to this:

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He was trying to negotiate with Crowley to make sure he never had to go to Hell no matter what he did.

I was like, SHOULDN'T you try and negotiate and get a "get out of Hell free" pass? Seems like a reasonable precaution.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I recall, it was Gavin's idea to send him back. Didn't he say he didn't belong in the present? How is that not standing up for himself?

He was talking about sacrificing his own life! Nobody else cared about his life, and here he was, apparently indifferent to it, too. It's a wonder he managed to survive as long as he did, I guess, if he was that willing to just throw his life away.

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, sending him to the past doesn't mean he died, necessarily. I mean, knowing what he knew, he could've taken Fiona and boarded a different ship or not left Scotland at all or any numerous things. All Sam and Dean know is that Fiona didn't become a vengeful spirit. He could've lived a perfectly long life, for all we know.

I guess so. I hope so! How they set up the context, though, it really sounded to me like they were sending him to go drown with Fiona.

[catrox14]

Quote

 

CROWLEY

King of Hell. Plenty of perks.

GAVIN

So... If you're a king... that would make me... Prince?

CROWLEY

And you say I've never given you anything. A title!

GAVIN

And if I was to accept you as my father, you could keep me from eternally burning in hell? No matter my sins?

CROWLEY

You're negotiating with me? (Chuckles) That's my boy.

GAVIN

This might work out. For the first time in my entire life, I can see possibilities, a future... Just as soon as you take me back to my own time and I can board that ship for the new world.

Then later he changed his mind

Quote

GAVIN

The ship went down? Well, that's a good fit with the rest of my life.

CROWLEY

Mustn't snivel, Gavin. It might fit the old life. This one could be different.

GAVIN

I don't know the first thing about the 21st Century!

CROWLEY

You'll be fine. Just avoid cheap whiskey and cheap hookers. Look at me, getting all fatherly.

GAVIN

So this is goodbye, then?

CROWLEY

Yes. Forever. Unless, of course, I catch you smoking, in which case, I'll smack you stupid.

GAVIN

Goodbye, then. And thank you...father.

[GAVIN goes in for the hug, but CROWLEY stops him.]

CROWLEY

Whoa, whoa. Easy, easy. As you were. Goodbye, Gavin. Oh, uh... Don't go mentioning that whole "Prince of Hell" thing. Doesn't play too well in most circles.

Gavin was  willing to risk altering a timeline because he didn't want to die no matter the consequences. (The Doctor would rip him a new one)

He was  eager to know that NO MATTER WHAT SIN he committed, he would not suffer any punishment in Hell.  So that means he could have murdered, raped, done whatever he wanted to do as long as he had the hookup to avoid any personal consequence for his actions. So I really can't feel too bad for him considering all that.

IMO Gavin grew a conscience in the past two years so he decided to do the right thing. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, rue721 said:

He was talking about sacrificing his own life! Nobody else cared about his life, and here he was, apparently indifferent to it, too. It's a wonder he managed to survive as long as he did, I guess, if he was that willing to just throw his life away.

I kinda admire Gavin for being willing to sacrifice himself to save Fiona from her fate of being "misused" and turning into an angry spirit who ends up being tormented for 200 years. I mean, he didn't sign up to go back because he was suicidal and wanted to die, he did it to save someone he cared about; someone who cared about him.

[rue721]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Gavin was  willing to risk altering a timeline because he didn't want to die no matter the consequences.

Why should he go back just to make sure the timeline was a certain way, though? Maybe by leaving the 19th C (or whenever) Gavin was actually making the timeline BETTER. Maybe the best timeline is one in which Gavin lives out his life in the 21st C. There's no telling.

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He was  eager to know that NO MATTER WHAT SIN he committed, he would not suffer any punishment in Hell.  So that means he could have murdered, raped, done whatever he wanted to do as long as he had the hookup to avoid any personal consequence for his actions.

I don't see what harm there is in thinking about getting anti-Hell insurance. There are tons of stupid things that could land you in Hell, or that Gavin could have worried would land him in Hell. Premarital sex, cussing, having the wrong religion or no religion, asking a Crossroads Demon to make you the best pianist of all time, whatever.

As far as I know, Gavin never actually did anything cruel or horrible to anybody in his life. Given his lack of a tendency toward murdering, raping, pillaging, etc, I think he probably didn't do awful stuff because he didn't really have it in him, not because of the threat of Hell.

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I kinda admire Gavin for being willing to sacrifice himself to save Fiona from her fate of being "misused" and turning into an angry spirit who ends up being tormented for 200 years. I mean, he didn't sign up to go back because he was suicidal and wanted to die, he did it to save someone he cared about; someone who cared about him.

That's what the show wanted us to feel, I think. Like, it was noble and self-sacrificing of Gavin, etc.

And it WAS noble and self-sacrificing, but I also found it a little...like "Come on, Gavin. Where's your spirit? Where's your optimism?!" I felt like everybody just gave up so easily!

The ending, when Gavin and Fiona were in that big glowing light or whatever, dripped with sentimentality but I found it depressing rather than sweet. YMMV.

[Katy M]

I'm just going to say it.  All time travel is bad.  Back to the Future movies notwithstanding.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The ending, when Gavin and Fiona were in that big glowing light or whatever, dripped with sentimentality but I found it depressing rather than sweet. YMMV.

I found it obnoxious and overly-sentimental and just down right goofy, but the idea of Gavin choosing to help someone, who was really hurt because he had been ripped out of his own time, way better than him just ending up dying alone in the future because he was too scared to die in the past. I mean, he was going to die at some point, at least in the past he had Fiona.

But, yes, I agree with @Katy M, time travel is bad!

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot