All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[SueB]

I think Chuck acknowledged that he intentionally didn't stop bad shit from happening to the Winchesters (including not being more direct with Sam in "The Monster At the End of This Book") at the end of Swan Song:

Quote

CHUCK (VOICEOVER): So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test... for Sam and Dean. And I think they did all right. [Flashbacks play.] Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice. They chose family. And, well... isn't that kinda the whole point?

emphasis mine. I know many loath the whole testing thing.  That's fine, but I think it's explicitly stated.  It works for me but I totally understand it doesn't work for everyone.

Also, this is a case, IMO, where no matter what we say, unless Kripke personally guided ALL the Chuck interactions with an eye for him as "God" (in secret), it's still a retcon up until Swan Song (where he told the actor he was God -- and that's STILL Behind the Scenes stuff).  Although, I sill say that Chuck-as-God DID complain about Metatron throwing away one of His (capital H meaning God) books.  If I recall, it was the Santa episode (S3).  Which lends credence to the "Chuck was always God" but NOT definitively.

My original comment (which appears to have kicked over a bee's nest), was how I could personally be okay retconning it to "always God".  But there is zero definitive truth here IMO. 

[Demented Daisy]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

Also, this is a case, IMO, where no matter what we say, unless Kripke personally guided ALL the Chuck interactions with an eye for him as "God" (in secret), it's still a retcon up until Swan Song (where he told the actor he was God -- and that's STILL Behind the Scenes stuff).

According to this interview dated September 1, 2009, God was always intended to be a character in season 5.  

Quote

You have Lucifer [Mark Pellegrino] as a character. How about God? Where’s the High Holy been?
I know it sounds nuts, but God will be a character on Supernatural this season. He’s vanished from Heaven, which is why the Angels have taken over the joint, but we’re planning on God’s return, probably around the end of the season. This story thread has generated much hilarity in the Supernatural writer’s room. We ask ourselves questions like, “Well, what’s God’s motivation in this scene?” And then we start laughing, cause, you know, Gossip Girl just ain’t having these problems.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Although, I sill say that Chuck-as-God DID complain about Metatron throwing away one of His (capital H meaning God) books.  If I recall, it was the Santa episode (S3).  Which lends credence to the "Chuck was always God" but NOT definitively.

But I think one of "His" books - whether he wrote it directly or through Chuck - would still be considered "The Word of God." So I don't know if God in "Don't Call Me Shurley" meant it was directly one of his books, or one that he "wrote" through Chuck. As you say, it could work either way.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I know many loath the whole testing thing.  That's fine, but I think it's explicitly stated.  It works for me but I totally understand it doesn't work for everyone.

I understand your stance here, and I can see how it could logistically work. For me, I'm just saying that the Chuck as God all along scenario would make Chuck a huge asshat (TM Dean) and maybe a bit of a hypocrite, in my opinion anyway, (and I pointed out why I thought that would be the case), which would make me enjoy the character a bit less. So in the long run, I prefer the Chuck becomes God in season 5 scenario, because then he's not as much of an asshat.

But I entirely get that miles will vary on that.

[Boopsahoy]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, if Chuck was the Omnipotent God when he sat next to Sam and said "that's where the story is heading" then to me that is almost a dereliction of his duty as the Father of Humanity.

Chuck being God ruined MATEOTB for me.  Probably my number 2 episode.  When I rewatch I try to forget he is God!

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

Chuck being God ruined MATEOTB for me.  Probably my number 2 episode.  When I rewatch I try to forget he is God!

Boopsahoy, you could adopt @Morrigan2575's and @Demented Daisy's Chuck didn't become God until the beginning of season 5 theory(ies) from the previous page. I find them very comforting and adaptable to canon.

[Boopsahoy]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Boopsahoy, you could adopt @Morrigan2575's and @Demented Daisy's Chuck didn't become God until the beginning of season 5 theory(ies) from the previous page. I find them very comforting and adaptable to canon.

I will try! But God said he has been Chuck all along., didn't he?

[mertensia]

Just remember that God's not likely to tell the exact truth to the Winchesters et alia. This is a dude who ran from his sister.

On the other hand, Dean apparently did tell God that he (God) has a big Madonna/whore complex. This makes me laugh. 

[DittyDotDot]

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, if Chuck was the Omnipotent God when he sat next to Sam and said "that's where the story is heading" then to me that is almost a dereliction of his duty as the Father of Humanity. Guck knew Lucifer would be released if Lilith was killed. He knew the threat that posed to humanity. He knew what the angels and demond were doing. Why would he be so milquetoast when talking to Sam, his child, who he put in the situation to begin with by not stopping his own son Lucifer from making demons?

I think God is under the impression it isn't his responsibility to stop humanity's destruction if it's the natural course of events. The universe is a delicately balanced ecosystem and stepping in and affecting humanity's outcome could cause other unintended consequences to that balance. We don't know how it might have turned out if God had laid all the information at Sam's feet; perhaps things would've turned out even worse?  God can see all the possibilities, but doesn't know the actual outcome; it changes with every decision made. Perhaps God wasn't so much derelict in his duty to humanity, but was choosing a path to ensure humanity's safety and the entire universe too? It sucks poor Sam and Dean have to suffer, but perhaps the suffering could've been so much worse?

Edited January 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I've been enjoying reading all the opinions!  I would contribute more, but honestly, it all just confuses me.  lol.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think God is under the impression it isn't his responsibility to stop humanity's destruction if it's the natural course of events.

Hm.  But couldn't you argue that God did stop humanity's destruction by putting Sam and Dean on the plane since they are ultimately the ones who averted said destruction time and again?

[Demented Daisy]

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But couldn't you argue

You could argue any number of things.  That's the beauty of art.  :-)

[DeeDee79]

Hello all, I have a question and wasn't sure which thread to post it in so I hope that this is ok. Is Previously TV no longer doing the Supernatural recaps? I haven't seen one since the third episode.

Edited February 11, 2017 by DeeDee79

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So, I watched Lily Sunder again last night and it got me thinking about magic on the show.  [Fair warning, my thoughts are likely to be a little disjointed, so I hope they make some sense.]  Lily said she used Angel magic.  (And the price was a part of her soul everytime she did.  I'll get back to this tidbit in a little while.)  Now, I also know that the MoL, both the American and British stinkers use(d) magic, but I can't remember if it was ever specific what kind.  And does the kind really matter?  Witches also use magic.  So are there different kinds of magic - Light, Dark, Angel, Demon, etc - or is it all just Magic (see my jazz hands) and whether or not it's Good or Bad depends on how it is used?  

See, I'm more of a don't blame the tool, blame the user sort.  (It's the engineer in me.  GIGO, you know.) But if that's true on the show, what really makes a witch a witch?  It used to be because they used magic, I thought.  (Before the MoL was introduced with Henry and Josie seen using Magic also.)  And there are witches who don't hurt anyone.  But if being a magic user makes one a witch by definition, wouldn't Henry Winchester, all the BMoL, and Lily also be witches?  And if Lily is a considered a witch, or at the very least a supernatural being what with her weird laser eye, will Mr. Ketch hunt her down also?  Even if it's only using magic to hurt humans that makes one a witch (which, I don't think that's true per se, although it would make you a witch the Winchesters would hunt down.) then is not Lady ToniMyMiddleNameisElphaba also a witch since she used magic to hurt Sam?  

Basically: I would like to understand the 'rules' of Magic and what defines a witch a little better.  

P.S to @DeeDee79 above - I don't know if anyone else answered you, and I didn't want to completely ignore your post - but I have no idea!  Sorry, I'm no help there.  :)

[catrox14]

IMO, using sigils, hex bags, and summoning spells is all magic. So Sam and Dean both have dabbled which is why I wonder about the status of the boys souls given the premise here that Lily is was losing bits s of her soul because she was using enochian magic. .

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Thanks for reminding me about the losing her soul bit, @catrox14!  I never did get back to that up above.  So yeah - I wonder how that works too.  Is it just Enochian Magic that makes you lose bits of your soul each time you use the spell?  And what constitutes Enochian magic?  Is it because the spell is in Enochian?  I agree with you, that imo also, using all that stuff (sigils, hex bags, etc.) is all Magic.  But even within Magic, are there different kinds of Magic?  Didn't Roweena say that the witches from Regarding Dean practiced Celtic magic?  (or their big grimoire was in ancient Celt, I think - but that could be just because their ancestors were Celt and that's the language they spoke.)  So what's the difference between that and what Lily practiced, really?  The language it's in?  

Argh!  Too many questions and not enough answers!

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, I watched Lily Sunder again last night and it got me thinking about magic on the show.  [Fair warning, my thoughts are likely to be a little disjointed, so I hope they make some sense.]  Lily said she used Angel magic.  (And the price was a part of her soul everytime she did.  I'll get back to this tidbit in a little while.)  Now, I also know that the MoL, both the American and British stinkers use(d) magic, but I can't remember if it was ever specific what kind.  And does the kind really matter?  Witches also use magic.  So are there different kinds of magic - Light, Dark, Angel, Demon, etc - or is it all just Magic (see my jazz hands) and whether or not it's Good or Bad depends on how it is used?  

See, I'm more of a don't blame the tool, blame the user sort.  (It's the engineer in me.  GIGO, you know.) But if that's true on the show, what really makes a witch a witch?  It used to be because they used magic, I thought.  (Before the MoL was introduced with Henry and Josie seen using Magic also.)  And there are witches who don't hurt anyone.  But if being a magic user makes one a witch by definition, wouldn't Henry Winchester, all the BMoL, and Lily also be witches?  And if Lily is a considered a witch, or at the very least a supernatural being what with her weird laser eye, will Mr. Ketch hunt her down also?  Even if it's only using magic to hurt humans that makes one a witch (which, I don't think that's true per se, although it would make you a witch the Winchesters would hunt down.) then is not Lady ToniMyMiddleNameisElphaba also a witch since she used magic to hurt Sam?  

Basically: I would like to understand the 'rules' of Magic and what defines a witch a little better.  

There does seem to be different kinds of magic, but I'm not sure the show has ever defined them consistently.

Enochian is the language of the angels, so if you're doing Enochian magic it seems to imply it's angelic magic. Witches have generally been said to be users of demonic magic; meaning they get their power from demons. However, there's also been "naturals", like Rowena, and wicca who don't seem to get their power from demons. 

The only consistency to magic on the show, IMO, is there is a power-requirement to make the magic happen. To me, it sounded like if you were a human who did Enocian magic you were tapping into power of your own soul (and draining it bit by bit) to make the magic happen. Angels have grace to power their magic, but it seems their grace is rechargeable and a human soul is not.

I'm not sure exactly where wicca get their power, but it's been said to be "white" magic, so maybe it's a lesser form of Enochian magic? Maybe it's powered by Heaven in some way? Perhaps they tap into the souls in Heaven, but it's limited in comparison to tapping into your own soul? 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only consistency to magic on the show, IMO, is there is a power-requirement to make the magic happen. To me, it sounded like if you were a human who did Enocian magic you were tapping into power of your own soul (and draining it bit by bit) to make the magic happen. Angels have grace to power their magic, but it seems their grace is rechargeable and a human soul is not.

Thank you!  I like your explanation of using the Enochian magic and tapping into the power of your own soul.  And if that's all it is, I don't really like that the show went there, as I thought human souls were supposed to be actually infinitely more powerful than angel's grace, but people just didn't know how to tap into it.  (which is why the angels recharge from the human souls in Heaven.) And also, because as @catrox14 noted, if Enochian magic drains your soul each time it's used, then each time Sam and/or Dean use an angel banishing sigil, part of their soul is getting burned off.  

If human souls aren't rechargeable, do they just fade away bit by bit in Heaven each time the angels* recharge?  That was never really defined very well either, imo.  

On wicca and 'naturals' like Roweena - I thought at one point, maybe when she was first introduced, she said her power came from nature?  I also thought wiccan's power was based off nature.  But that's still very nebulous, imo.  Finally, I thought what makes magic 'white' or 'black' depended on the intent of said spell - but maybe that's just my Harry Potter lore seeping in.  

*I keep wanting to type angle.  Which reminds me of the time I saw a tumblr post about Cas that called him a "precious angle." (sic)  And all I could think was, well, I don't mean to be obtuse, but he is acute one.  :)  And yes, math jokes are funny.

[Wayward Son]

I got bored and I was in a fact gathering mood so I present to you guys a list of recurring characters on Supernatural and how many episodes they've featured in. This is up to date as of the episode Defending Dean.  I wasn't sure where to post this so apologies if this is the wrong place.

200 + Episodes 

Dean Winchester = 252 Episodes
Sam Winchester = 252 Episodes

50 + Episodes 
Castiel = 94 Episodes
Crowley = 64 Episodes
Bobby Singer = 59 Episodes

20 + Episodes
Lucifer = 24 Episodes (including as a part of Sam and Castiel's hallucinations) 
Rowena = 23 Episodes

10 + Episodes 
Ruby = 16 episodes
Metatron = 15 Episodes

Mary Winchester = 14 Episodes
Amara / The Darkness = 12 Episodes
Gadreel = 12 Episodes
Meg (Demon) = 12 Episodes
Azazel = 11 Episodes
Chuck / God = 11 Episodes
Jody Mills = 11 Episodes
Lisa Braeden = 11 Episodes

10 or Less Episodes 
Abbadon = 9 Episodes
Dick Roman = 9 Episodes (including his possession of Castiel) 
Ellen Harvelle = 9 Episodes
Amelia Richardson = 8 Episodes
Benny = 8 Episodes
Charlie = 8 Episodes
Samuel Campbell = 8 Episodes
Ben Braeden = 7
Jo Harvelle = 7 Episodes
Naomi = 7 Episodes
Zachariah = 7 Episodes
Anna = 6 Episodes
Balthazar = 6 Episodes
Bela Talbot= 6 Episodes
Billie = 6 Episodes
Edgar = 6 Episodes
Meg (Human) = 6 (Including Possession)
Rufus Turner = 6 Episodes
Alastair = 5 Episodes
Arthur Ketch = 5 Episodes
Ash = 5 Episodes
Chet = 5 Episodes
Claire Novak = 5 Episodes
Death = 5 Episodes
Ed Zeddmore
Jessica Moore = 5 Episodes
Henry Spangler = 5 Episodes
Lilith = 5 Episodes
Linda Tran = 5 Episodes
Raphael = 5 Episodes
Susan = 5 Episodes
Uriel = 5 Episodes
Alpha Vampire = 4 Episodes
Annie/Dr. Gaines = 4 Episodes
Christian Campbell = 4 Episodes
Cole Trenton = 4 Episodes
Eve = 4 Episodes
Garth Fitzgerald = 4 Episodes
Gwen Campbell = 4 Episodes
Gordon Walker = 4 Episodes
Michael = 4 Episodes
Pamela Barnes = 4 Episodes
Tessa = 4 Episodes
Victor Henrickson = 4 Episodes
Becky Rosen = 3 Episodes
Donna Hanscum = 3 Episodes
Eleanor Visyak = 3 Episodes
Frank Deveraux = 3 Episodes
Henry Winchester = 3 Episodes
Karen Singer = 3 Episodes
Ingrid = 3 Episodes
Jervis = 3 Episodes
Lady Toni Bevell = 3 Episodes
Samandriel = 3 Episodes
Tommy = 3 Episodes
Aaron Bass = 2 Episodes
Adina = 2 Episodes
Alpha Shapeshifter = 2 Episodes
Amelia Novak = 2 Episodes
Andy Gallagher = 2 Episodes
Annie Davies = 2 Episodes
Ava Davies = 2 Episodes
Bartholomew = 2 Episodes
Bridgetta = 2 Episodes
Calvin Reidy = 2 Episodes 
Channing Ngo = 2 Episodes
Daniel Elkins = 2 Episodes
Donatello Redfield = 2 Episodes
Efram = 2 Episodes
Eldon Frankenstein = 2 Episodes
Gavin MacLeod = 2 Episodes
Gerald = 2 Episodes
Guthrie = 2 Episodes
Jake Talley = 2 Episodes
Jenna Nickerson = 2 Episodes
Jimmy Novak = 2 Episodes
Jonah = 2 Episodes
Kate = 2 Episodes
Kelly Kline = 2 Episodes
Krissy Chambers = 2 Episodes
Kubrick = 2 Episodes
Lenore = 2 Episodes
Louise = 2 Episodes
Mark Campbell = 2 Episodes
Martin Creaser = 2 Episodes
Mick Davies = 2 Episodes
Monroe Frankenstein = 2 Episodes
Morrison = 2 Episodes
Oskar = 2 Episodes
Pestilence  = 2 Episodes
Rachel = 2 Episodes
Ronald Reznick = 2 Episodes
Rick Sanchez = 2 Episodes
Sarah Blake = 2 Episodes
Simmons = 2 Episodes
Tom = 2 Episodes
Tommy Collins = 2 Episodes

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[bearcatfan]

Rufus was only in 6 episodes? I thought it was more. maybe because I like him so much.

I'm sure Garth was in 4, not 3. "Time for a Wedding", the one at the beer company (can't remember the name, season 7), The one in season 8 with the coin and the one where Garth is a werewolf.

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Rufus was only in 6 episodes? I thought it was more. maybe because I like him so much.

I'm sure Garth was in 4, not 3. "Time for a Wedding", the one at the beer company (can't remember the name, season 7), The one in season 8 with the coin and the one where Garth is a werewolf.

Hi I double checked and Rufus was indeed in six episodes. They were

3.15 Time Is on My Side
5.02 Good God, Y'All
6.04 Weekend at Bobby's
6.16 ...And Then There Were None
7.10 Death's Door
11.16 Safe House

You were correct about Garth being in four, rather than three, and I edited the list to reflect that :)

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

P.S to @DeeDee79 above - I don't know if anyone else answered you, and I didn't want to completely ignore your post - but I have no idea!  Sorry, I'm no help there.  :)

Thank you for responding! I was starting to wonder if it was because I should have posted my question in  different thread :)

[bearcatfan]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Hi I double checked and Rufus was indeed in six episodes. They were

3.15 Time Is on My Side
5.02 Good God, Y'All
6.04 Weekend at Bobby's
6.16 ...And Then There Were None
7.10 Death's Door
11.16 Safe House

You were correct about Garth being in four, rather than three, and I edited the list to reflect that :)

I didn't think you were wrong about Rufus. It just seemed like more. His character really left an impression. I really liked Rufus and was sad when he died.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Thank you for responding! I was starting to wonder if it was because I should have posted my question in  different thread :)

You're welcome!  But I don't know if there's any better thread for your question either.  You could try the Media thread maybe?

[trxr4kids]

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thank you!  I like your explanation of using the Enochian magic and tapping into the power of your own soul.  And if that's all it is, I don't really like that the show went there, as I thought human souls were supposed to be actually infinitely more powerful than angel's grace, but people just didn't know how to tap into it.  (which is why the angels recharge from the human souls in Heaven.) And also, because as @catrox14 noted, if Enochian magic drains your soul each time it's used, then each time Sam and/or Dean use an angel banishing sigil, part of their soul is getting burned off.  

If human souls aren't rechargeable, do they just fade away bit by bit in Heaven each time the angels* recharge?  That was never really defined very well either, imo.  

I agree with @Mick Lady I love your posts but now my head hurts. But seriously I think the real answer is that the show has been vague about the rules/kinds of magic so that it can be good or bad depending on the story they want to tell that particular episode. You know like how Cas is really powerful except when he's not.

[Mick Lady]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I got bored and I was in a fact gathering mood so I present to you guys a list of recurring characters on Supernatural and how many episodes they've featured in. This is up to date as of the episode Defending Dean.  I wasn't sure where to post this so apologies if this is the wrong place.

Wow Wayward Son! Great list. I'm so happy you joined us here!

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You're welcome!  But I don't know if there's any better thread for your question either.  You could try the Media thread maybe?

Thanks; I'll try that!

[SueB]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, I watched Lily Sunder again last night and it got me thinking about magic on the show.  [Fair warning, my thoughts are likely to be a little disjointed, so I hope they make some sense.]  Lily said she used Angel magic.  (And the price was a part of her soul everytime she did.  I'll get back to this tidbit in a little while.)  Now, I also know that the MoL, both the American and British stinkers use(d) magic, but I can't remember if it was ever specific what kind.  And does the kind really matter?  Witches also use magic.  So are there different kinds of magic - Light, Dark, Angel, Demon, etc - or is it all just Magic (see my jazz hands) and whether or not it's Good or Bad depends on how it is used?  

See, I'm more of a don't blame the tool, blame the user sort.  (It's the engineer in me.  GIGO, you know.) But if that's true on the show, what really makes a witch a witch?  It used to be because they used magic, I thought.  (Before the MoL was introduced with Henry and Josie seen using Magic also.)  And there are witches who don't hurt anyone.  But if being a magic user makes one a witch by definition, wouldn't Henry Winchester, all the BMoL, and Lily also be witches?  And if Lily is a considered a witch, or at the very least a supernatural being what with her weird laser eye, will Mr. Ketch hunt her down also?  Even if it's only using magic to hurt humans that makes one a witch (which, I don't think that's true per se, although it would make you a witch the Winchesters would hunt down.) then is not Lady ToniMyMiddleNameisElphaba also a witch since she used magic to hurt Sam?  

Basically: I would like to understand the 'rules' of Magic and what defines a witch a little better.  

P.S to @DeeDee79 above - I don't know if anyone else answered you, and I didn't want to completely ignore your post - but I have no idea!  Sorry, I'm no help there.  :)

Others have provided the basics as I understand them.  But I'm in the mood to provide what I think are the data as we know it:

Use of witchcraft: Borrrowers (powered from demons), Naturals (Rowena), and students Since Rowena was already training her "students" by simple use of phonetically written spells, I'm thinking the right combination of words in the specific language for that spell is what creates the "modicum" of magic ("modicum" being Rowena's words).  Sam, Dean and every other hunter is pretty much a student.  They aren't dealing with demons and are not naturals. [I'd call this all "canon" because we have specific show evidence]

Next, I'll move into "reasoned logic based on canon facts".  Now, as @DittyDotDot mentioned, magic seems to need some sort of power. In the Supernatural universe, demons are twisted souls [canon fact].  Which means ultimately their magic is both from the soul and it's evil (aka dark).  Rowena said she "reads the signs that Nature gives us before there was man" (Dark Dynasty).  Rowena made quite fuss about being tied to nature. And she also said she was a pagan. Paganism has many ties to nature [normal fact vice SPN specific]. Plus we have pagan gods whose power is directly related to the amount of followers [canon fact].  Since S11 told us this was Chuck's universe, tying the pagan god power to human belief likely ties it to the power of the human soul [reasoned logic].  Death made quite the point about how powerful souls were [again canon fact].  So... the big question... what powers the 'naturals'?  Is it their own soul? Is there some Chuck-provided power in nature that they draw upon?  That's not been answered.  But I'm going to offer a couple of options either the "naturals" are using their own soul without damage OR (and I think this is more likely), they somehow are tapping into Chuck-power that he put into nature.  This power is (likely) neither good nor evil.  It's natural.  So, like nature, it has no specific intent. It simply exists. This is consistent with our universe's definition of pantheism where "the Divine is seen as everywhere and in everything"  It's all about nature.  This matches much of what Rowena talks about.  Transferring this concept to the SPN verse - it seems that it is the user of this power and THEIR intent which makes the 'natural' magic "dark" or "light" [reasoned logic]. The "white magic" witch from "Repo Man" certainly indicated there is a distinction between "white/light" and "dark" magic [canon fact].  Also, whoever makes the spells in the first place -- what THEIR intent is, may have an effect.  This natural magic is what appears to be harnessed by simply saying a spell [reasoned logic].  And it appears to be amplified by magical objects [canon fact]. So, talismans, hex bags, cursed objects, must have the magic harnessed by the witch who performed the spell.  More powerful witch, I'm guessing = more powerful artifact [reasoned logic].  

So what about Enochian magic?  Here's where I'm going to use my engineers logic.  Angel's powers do NOT come from souls. They come from grace.  And it's very powerful.  More powerful than demon magic and routine magic.  BUT Rowena kicked Cas' butt and froze Crowley with two spells who power appeared amplified by the Book of the Damned.  So -- grace-based magic usually wins but CAN be trumped by other magic.  However, we've seen humans use the power of their soul to perform inherently grace-based magic (Enochian magic).  I'm going to put my engineer logic in here and say that it's power but it's different.  I liked grace power to DC (direct current) and soul power to AC (alternating current).  Depending on a multitude of factors you can in fact connect DC to AC but it's likely to BURN UP.  So... using [engineer logic], when humans attempt to use their soul to employ the magic of 'multidimentional beings of celestial intent', there is a mismatch in the power supply.  It DAMAGES the human.  The small Enochian spells that are sigils use blood (which damages the human) but are relatively harmless.  More powerful use, like time-travel, directly draws from the human soul and it takes time to re-charge.  Lily was using heavy duty magic.  She damaged her eye and was draining her soul.  She had lived nearly 100 years.  

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: Magic being good or bad is a function of the power source.  I'm guessing three basic kinds: soul (human or demon), nature, and grace.  Human soul magic is generally good.  Demon magic comes from a twisted soul and is dark.  Natural magic goes either way depending on the person's intent.  Simple spells come from natural magic and do not rely on the power of the soul. Enochian magic comes from angel grace.  This is akin to a soul but is a different type of power (think AC versus DC power and how it doesn't mix well unless you know what you are doing).  Using a human soul to power Enochian magic is doable but comes with damage. Note: summary is a combination canon fact, reasoned logic, and engineering logic. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

 I liked grace power to DC (direct current) and soul power to AC (alternating current).  Depending on a multitude of factors you can in fact connect DC to AC but it's likely to BURN UP.

[Was reading along and then I got to this, and my ears really perk up.] NOW you're speaking my language!  :D.

Thank you for the very thoughtful explanation.  That really helps a great deal.  

So, going back to what makes a witch a witch: if there are three classes of witches (demon powered, natural, and student) and those who use simple spells from natural magic are considered students; that's still a witch.  Then wouldn't Dean, Sam, Henry, and the BMoL who use such spells also be considered witches?  And again Lady ToniDoubleDoubleToilandTrouble used magic to hurt a human - Sam.  So doesn't that make her a bad witch?  (And yes, I totally said that in my head in my best Glinda impersonation.)

I also think we need to somehow tag your post for posterity and future reference.  

Edited February 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
just another thought.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I agree with @Mick Lady I love your posts but now my head hurts. But seriously I think the real answer is that the show has been vague about the rules/kinds of magic so that it can be good or bad depending on the story they want to tell that particular episode. You know like how Cas is really powerful except when he's not.

Aw, thanks!  Don't mean to make your head hurt though!  Lol.  I know what you mean though. Sometimes it just drives me crazy and I need to make sense of things.  And then I feel like Dean and Sam trying to figure out how the time thing worked inside the Soul Eaters' nest in Safe House.  

I agree about the showing probably being purposefully vague.  But read @SueB's post, if you haven't already.  It's excellent!

Edited February 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Wayward Son]

14 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I didn't think you were wrong about Rufus. It just seemed like more. His character really left an impression. I really liked Rufus and was sad when he died.

Yeah, I felt the same way as you when we lost Rufus :( . He had a wit about him that never failed to make me laugh. The fact he was played by a talented actor also helped. 

I had some surprises myself from drawing up the list. I knew he had been in more episodes since his promotion to Series Regular, but I still thought Bobby had been in more episodes. Lilith was also in a lot less episodes than I expected. 

13 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Wow Wayward Son! Great list. I'm so happy you joined us here!

Aw thank you @Mick Lady for the warm welcome :) 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

[Was reading along and then I got to this, and my ears really perk up.] NOW you're speaking my language!  :D.

Thank you for the very thoughtful explanation.  That really helps a great deal.  

So, going back to what makes a witch a witch: if there are three classes of witches (demon powered, natural, and student) and those who use simple spells from natural magic are considered students; that's still a witch.  Then wouldn't Dean, Sam, Henry, and the BMoL who use such spells also be considered witches?  And again Lady ToniDoubleDoubleToilandTrouble used magic to hurt a human - Sam.  So doesn't that make her a bad witch?  (And yes, I totally said that in my head in my best Glinda impersonation.)

I also think we need to somehow tag your post for posterity and future reference.  

Since they are using the spells of others, they are at best (IMO) temporarily student witches -- but not really.  Rowena said that the students train under a specific witch. Rowena had also previously indicated training with specific witches.  So in case of those who use other witches spells, they are not actually studying.  They are employing witchcraft without really spending too much studying the witch or much about the spell.  Now when Henry and definitely Cuthbert Sinclaire became adept students of spells, IMO, they because student witches.  Not of one particular witch but of many.  Their active engagement, especially Cuthbert who was MAKING spells, puts them a little farther into 'witch' category.  In fact, I wonder if Cuthbert is a 'natural'.  And Henry was noted as having a talent.  So maybe every person has some inate ability to perform magic and those who have it in spade are the 'naturals'.  Like a normal person getting a premonition versus a legit psychic (in SPN-verse).  Sam has an affinity for languages but Dean often does many of the spells.  Dean sometimes has an uncanny instinct for 'evil'.  

In short, I'm saying there's potentially a range of inate abiilty in everyone.  A student who studies will be more less successful based on how much inherent skill they have.   And those who simply use a spell but aren't studying consistently or under the mentorship of a particular witch, aren't at best (IMO) leveraging witchcraft but not technically a witch.

At least this is MY headcanon.  YMMV.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SueB

[SueB]

I've got TNT Rewatch running in the background while I drag my feet before heading to the much-delayed airport (so of course I'm bouncing all over the forum too).

Anyway, watching the Amelia arc, I've come to the following conclusions:
- Sustained romance is just NOT the show's forte.  Yes, I found the actress' tone to lean towards annoying versus the 'snarky' I think they were trying for.  But it's more than that.  The flash-back approach was ungainly.  The soap-opera 'dead husband comes back from the war' plot was nope.  They swirled the romance around Sam's emotional damage (thinking Dean was dead and running).  It was a doomed romance from the get-go.  And they told us that in the first episode by showing him leaving her bed.  Which also makes it hard to even try to invest.

- But Jared, Jensen, and Liane Balaban (Amelia) have all successfully played romantic leads in other shows.  I scoped out Balaban and she personally got high marks (and awards) for an indie romantic film.   
- And Carver did romance correctly on Being Human (IMO)
- A snarky girl for Sam IS the right girl.

- But they made so many wrong turns IMO.  

Thus, I have zero problems with both Jared and Jensen being uninterested in romantic relationships.  Any women with Dean have historically gotten major shit from fandom.  And NOTHING sticks.  Because it isn't the show premise.  So, drama associated with a doomed relationship?  Yeah, I can get why they reject it.  

And I'm NOT anti-relationship.  I just don't think they do them well.  They'll have little bits I like, sometimes a lot.  But they don't sustain well.  YMMV.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SueB

[bearcatfan]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

I've got TNT Rewatch running in the background while I drag my feet before heading to the much-delayed airport (so of course I'm bouncing all over the forum too).

Anyway, watching the Amelia arc, I've come to the following conclusions:
- Sustained romance is just NOT the show's forte.  Yes, I found the actress' tone to lean towards annoying versus the 'snarky' I think they were trying for.  But it's more than that.  The flash-back approach was ungainly.  The soap-opera 'dead husband comes back from the war' plot was nope.  They swirled the romance around Sam's emotional damage (thinking Dean was dead and running).  It was a doomed romance from the get-go.  And they told us that in the first episode by showing him leaving her bed.  Which also makes it hard to even try to invest.

- But Jared, Jensen, and Liane Balaban (Amelia) have all successfully played romantic leads in other shows.  I scoped out Balaban and she personally got high marks (and awards) for an indie romantic film.   
- And Carver did romance correctly on Being Human (IMO)
- A snarky girl for Sam IS the right girl.

- But they made so many wrong turns IMO.  

Thus, I have zero problems with both Jared and Jensen being uninterested in romantic relationships.  Any women with Dean have historically gotten major shit from fandom.  And NOTHING sticks.  Because it isn't the show premise.  So, drama associated with a doomed relationship?  Yeah, I can get why they reject it.  

And I'm NOT anti-relationship.  I just don't think they do them well.  They'll have little bits I like, sometimes a lot.  But they don't sustain well.  YMMV.

I thought Amelia came across more as bitchy than snarky. I can be snarky (although I refrain on message boards as there is still no sarcasm font), but I hated her from the beginning. She wasn't snarky or sarcastic towards Sam, she was mean.

I don't think we saw enough of Jessica to get a real read on her, but I didn't dislike her at all. I liked Lisa, mostly.

Basically, I agree that they don't do relationships well. It's probably because they don't have time to do it well because, like you said, it's not the show's premise.

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I thought Amelia came across more as bitchy than snarky. I can be snarky (although I refrain on message boards as there is still no sarcasm font), but I hated her from the beginning. She wasn't snarky or sarcastic towards Sam, she was mean.

Mean is the perfect way to describe her. From the beginning when she basically bullied Sam into taking the dog with him and he just cowered when she ripped into him. I definitely believe that he stayed with her out of loneliness, not love.

[catrox14]

I was just reading this article from last month...and something doesn't make sense to me.

Quote

And believe it or not, this matter also applies to Castiel, whose future as an angel might seem more predictable — but then again, nothing’s ever really predictable in the Supernatural world. “For a long time, Cas has been in a little bit of a liminal place,” Dabb says. “He’s not part of heaven’s bureaucracy and hasn’t been for quite a while, that has been made very clear to him and will be made very clear in an episode this season how heaven views him. That’s caused a lot of problems for Cas, because he’s really felt like a man without a country for a while. Yes, Sam and Dean are his family and he’s extremely bonded with them, but the connection Sam and Dean have is not a connection that Cas can have with either of them because they’re brothers, they grew up together.”

 

Dabb, you literally had Dean tell Cas "You're our brother"  in s11.  Um...which is it  Dabb?

 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/19/supernatural-showrunner-sam-dean-future-season-12/

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I was just reading this article from last month...and something doesn't make sense to me.

 

Dabb, you literally had Dean tell Cas "You're our brother"  in s11.  Um...which is it  Dabb?

 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/19/supernatural-showrunner-sam-dean-future-season-12/

I am going to take my response over to the bitterness thread! 

[Mick Lady]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 4:13 PM, Demented Daisy said:

And then we start laughing, cause, you know, Gossip Girl just ain’t having these problems.

Good Chuck, I'm still laughing at this! Mick keeps asking, "What's so funny?" but I couldn't answer...

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:15 PM, SueB said:

Others have provided the basics as I understand them.  But I'm in the mood to provide what I think are the data as we know it:

Use of witchcraft: Borrrowers (powered from demons), Naturals (Rowena), and students Since Rowena was already training her "students" by simple use of phonetically written spells, I'm thinking the right combination of words in the specific language for that spell is what creates the "modicum" of magic ("modicum" being Rowena's words).  Sam, Dean and every other hunter is pretty much a student.  They aren't dealing with demons and are not naturals. [I'd call this all "canon" because we have specific show evidence]

This is one of the most outstanding posts I have ever read on this board SueB! As a mathematician, I love your logic, and appreciate your thought process.

God Sue, you rock!

[catrox14]

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly, I wish they would just pick a SL, write what they want to write, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the story doesn't please any particular segment of viewers well, then I guess viewers will make a decision. 

I do have to wonder how much they are crowd-sourcing their SL these days. Jim Michaels tweeted out a couple of days ago saying they were thinking about s13 already and who would folks on Twitter like to see come back.

I dunno.

I have touched on it before, but in my opinion (and it's an opinion I'm not stating it as a fact) the writers are constantly trying to please fans and the narrative suffers for it. I think the writers are very much aware of how fractured this shows fandom is. They know that there are bibro fans who automatically hate any character that isn't Sam and Dean, that there are more moderate bibro fans who are happy to welcome others provided the brothers remain centre stage, that there are extremeteam free will fans who want the show to become an ensemble, and there are Wincest and Destiel fans.

In my opinion the writers are trying to find a way to pander to all these different factions. That is why there are times when the tone abruptly shifts between one episode and the next. This is why things such as the concept of "family" change from episode to episode and interview to interview. When they're trying to please bibro fans Sam and Dean are family and it's limited to biology. When they're trying to please Castiel fans, or even general team free will fans, it's suddenly extended to include others such as Castiel, Kevin and Charlie.

I really wish they'd pick a stance and stick with it. However, I doubt they ever will as they wouldn't want to rock the boat. Ultimately, the ratings are precarious. At the moment we are doing fine with an average of 0.6, but even the slightest shift down to a 0.5 or 0.4 and SN could suddenly find itself in the danger zone. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

RE: the ratings, I think Kripke made a joke the other day regarding Supernatural (in an interview about Timeless).  Something along the lines that there could be an actual apocalypse and SPN would still be running.  

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

In my opinion the writers are trying to find a way to pander to all these different factions. That is why there are times when the tone abruptly shifts between one episode and the next. This is why things such as the concept of "family" change from episode to episode and interview to interview. When they're trying to please bibro fans Sam and Dean are family and it's limited to biology. When they're trying to please Castiel fans, or even general team free will fans, it's suddenly extended to include others such as Castiel, Kevin and Charlie.

I wish that they would stick to the overall premise of the show which is two brothers hunting supernatural beings. Don't get me wrong I enjoy Cas, Crowley, Rowena, Jody and all of the peripheral characters that they've introduced over the years but I prefer the days when the brothers took front and center and the other characters appeared as a support to them instead of dominating the overall story line. Not realistic considering Jared and Jensen aren't robots and need time off. I guess as fans we sometimes overlook the fact that they're regular people too and when they take a backseat it's more than likely because they need some downtime. 

[Wayward Son]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

RE: the ratings, I think Kripke made a joke the other day regarding Supernatural (in an interview about Timeless).  Something along the lines that there could be an actual apocalypse and SPN would still be running.  

Oh don't get me wrong the shows ratings are currently very stable and I don't anticipate that changing anytime soon. 

However, in the wider picture of things, Supernatural is a middle of the road show (in terms of ratings not quality before people attack me haha) on an all round low rated network. It isn't a hit, like similar length shows such as Grey's Anatomy or The Big Bang Theory (again I'm referring to the ratings not the quality of shows), and while it is presently comfortable it isn't comfortable to the point that the writers can avoid to alienate sections of the fan base. In my opinion both the extreme 'bi-bro hate all other characters fans' and the 'We want Misha upgraded to third lead fans' are very small but very loud sections of fandom with the majority landing somewhere in the middle. On a hit show the show runners can afford to completely dismiss these extreme minority groups. However, for a show where a drop of two tenths of a rating point can shift you from comfortable to in danger of cancellation the show needs to maintain all the fans it can. 

Which is why as I said in my last post I think the writers are trying to desperate please everyone by including episodes / scenes, which should please the different sections of fandom and give them a reason to keep watching. The problem is though I feel this pandering has served to make a rather inconsistent narrative and set of relationship dynamics because for example you can go from one episode where Sam and Dean are said to have developed an expanded family to an episode where they state "all we have is each other". 

Although saying that the one thing they've been consistent on is that Sam comes first. Dean might care for Charlie, Kevin, Castiel etc, but he has never been shown to attempt to make deals with reaper or demons to save their lives like he has with Sam. Dean might care for these people, but ultimately if they die he will mourn them before moving on with his life. This is something Dean has been shown to be incapable of doing when it comes to Sam. However, beyond establishing Sam comes first they can't seem to make their minds up on whether these are people Dean and Sam view as family, or simply people they care for and happen to work with from time to time. 

 

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I wish that they would stick to the overall premise of the show which is two brothers hunting supernatural beings. Don't get me wrong I enjoy Cas, Crowley, Rowena, Jody and all of the peripheral characters that they've introduced over the years but I prefer the days when the brothers took front and center and the other characters appeared as a support to them instead of dominating the overall story line. Not realistic considering Jared and Jensen aren't robots and need time off. I guess as fans we sometimes overlook the fact that they're regular people too and when they take a backseat it's more than likely because they need some downtime. 

See, I would have to disagree that the other characters are dominating the story-line. Yes, they get the occasional episode centred on them but at the end of the day Sam and Dean are still the main focus of the show. They are still the only two to appear in every episodes with the rest appearing in 50 - 60% of  episodes at best. They are still given plenty of quieter MOTW episodes where it is just the two of them. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

In my opinion the writers are trying to find a way to pander to all these different factions. That is why there are times when the tone abruptly shifts between one episode and the next. This is why things such as the concept of "family" change from episode to episode and interview to interview. When they're trying to please bibro fans Sam and Dean are family and it's limited to biology. When they're trying to please Castiel fans, or even general team free will fans, it's suddenly extended to include others such as Castiel, Kevin and Charlie.

While I do agree the show, in general, tries to please all the different fan factions, I think the shift in tone from episode to episode has more to do with the individual writers' own voice showing through. Granted, this show has always been somewhat "loose" with their writing staff--which has it benefits and drawbacks--but I think there really isn't anyone pulling all the voices into a cohesive whole anymore.

[catrox14]

I've been rewatching s2 today for ..reasons.

I think this the best season overall and even though 'The End' is my personal favorite episode for a number of reasons.

I think Nightshifter might be the perfect episode of Supernatural. The boys on hunt, that turns into a caper, we meet Victor Henriksen. Quirky Ben Edlund humor is the best and Ronald Resnick is such a great one off character.

I love that Dean is all aboard with telling Ronald the truth. The fight with the shapeshifter was brutal. And the best music cue in the whole series, IMO. 

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've been rewatching s2 today for ..reasons.

I think this the best season overall and even though 'The End' is my personal favorite episode for a number of reasons.

I think Nightshifter might be the perfect episode of Supernatural. The boys on hunt, that turns into a caper, we meet Victor Henriksen. Quirky Ben Edlund humor is the best and Ronald Resnick is such a great one off character.

I love that Dean is all aboard with telling Ronald the truth. The fight with the shapeshifter was brutal. And the best music cue in the whole series, IMO. 

You never need a reason to rewatch season 2!  I've lost track of the amount of times I've watched Nightshifter :)

[bearcatfan]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

You never need a reason to rewatch season 2!  I've lost track of the amount of times I've watched Nightshifter :)

I don't think "man-droid" will ever not be funny.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I don't think "man-droid" will ever not be funny.

So true! Nor will "laser eyes". Man they could have had an awesome recurring character in Ronald :(
 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

So true! Nor will "laser eyes". Man they could have had an awesome recurring character in Ronald :(
 

This is the episode I think they could use as a basis for a Supernatural movie. It has all the elements. Or even a redux with some variations. I

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is the episode I think they could use as a basis for a Supernatural movie. It has all the elements. Or even a redux with some variations. I

And I would watch the hell out of that movie! :)

[Wayward Son]

This morning a friend linked me to a debate, over on Twitter, about an issue that has long been a point of contention between those who are fans of Cas and those who aren't. It got me thinking about my own view on the subject. However, I don't have Twitter, and I didn't want to sign up just for the sake of butting into someone else's debate so I'm going to post my thoughts here. Feel free to reply with your thoughts especially if you're someone who would make these arguments. 

Argument 1: Castiel is a terrible person who should be forever maligned as Jimmy Novak did not give true consent at the end of The Rapture. He was blackmailed into it by Castiel.  

My Response: When looking at it objectively the people who make this argument are correct when they say the permission given by Jimmy was not freely given. The episode itself is very explicit about this, as we are clearly shown the only reason he gives Castiel permission is to use him as a vessel is to spare his young daughter Claire from the same fate. I think 'blackmail' is too strong a word, as it is Jimmy who offers to make the switch and there is no indication Castiel's choice to use Claire was malicious. However, whether by design or accident, there is no arguing Jimmy's consent was given under duress.

In my opinion we should consider the full picture before deciding how harshly to judge the angel's actions. At the beginning of the episode Castiel was forcibly removed from his vessel and taken back to Heaven. In season eight (Torn and Frayed, Goodbye Stranger) we learn Heaven's idea of reprogramming includes; memory manipulation, brain washing and mind control. Castiel's actions here are influenced by the programming he had recently undertaken and he was not free to act with full autonomy until Dean's words helped him break free in Lucifer Rising. Therefore, when making a decision on whether he is truly culpable for his actions one should consider their thoughts on other occasions when mind control has influenced a main character. For instance; should the impala have been considered Andy's since Dean 'gave it to him' while under his control in Simon Said? Should Sam be eternally maligned for his torture of Jo while possessed by Meg in Born Under a Bad Sign? Should Bobby have been punished for his murder of Rufus while under the control of the Khan Worm at the end of And Then There Were None? 

From my perspective the answer to those questions is no because the actions were not undertaken with the full consent of each of them. Therefore, neither should Castiel be judged for his harsh behaviour in this scene. If your answer to those question was 'yes' then we share a fundamentally different viewpoint. While I may not agree with that viewpoint I can certainly appreciate it as a valid alternative. On the other hand, if someones answer is 'no' they shouldn't be blamed and yet they still insist on judging Castiel's opinion here then it is outright hypocrisy as far as I am concerned.

Argument 2: It is wrong of Castiel to continue violating Jimmy's body and he is a monster for doing so. He should give up his body like Hannah did for her vessel. 

My Response: First things first; Jimmy is dead. We are given confirmation at the end of Angel Heart where we are shown his reunion with his soul mate Amelia in heaven. What's more the body currently inhabited by Castiel is not the one that Jimmy lived in, that body was destroyed at the end of Lucifer Rising. Therefore, the body currently inhabited by Castiel is not Jimmy's body, but rather it is a doppelganger or a supernaturally constructed clone with the same appearance as Jimmy. Some may consider his continued use of Jimmy's appearance inappropriate (and that is not something I or anyone can state as wrong to feel), but ultimately the blame for his current appearance does not lie with Castiel. It was Guck who reconstructed his body at the end of Lazarus Rising and later in Swan Song. Therefore, it was Guck who made the decision that the doppelganger body worn by Castiel should bear Jimmy's visage. 

Of course one could still make the argument that he should vacate the body, but what good would that do? Firstly, as I mentioned previously, Jimmy is dead. If Castiel were to vacate the body then it would simply rot. His absence wouldn't allow Jimmy a second chance to live the life he wanted. Secondly, if Castiel was needed on earth again what should he do? Use another vessel? Why would he waste a perfectly good body, designed for him, in favour of putting another through the pain he is criticised for putting Jimmy through. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wayward Son