All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

So, I was rewatching Form and Void and I swear they were using part of the score from Dark Side of the Moon, which I don't believe they've ever used in other than Dark Side of the Moon.  I wonder if that is meaningful.

[SueB]

So, I was rewatching Form and Void and I swear they were using part of the score from Dark Side of the Moon, which I don't believe they've ever used in other than Dark Side of the Moon.  I wonder if that is meaningful.

Good catch, I'll give a listen.

[SueB]

Caveat: I swear I haven't lost my mind.

 

I caught the tail end of Blood Brothers this morning.  And watching the scene where Sam comes back to explain to Amelia that he doesn't pity her was a mini-revelation.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm still of the opinion that one scene, one line of dialog, etc... is not enough to establish a character trait.  But I think part of Carver's mistake w/ Sam in Season 8 was for us to really count on THAT scene to explain everything.  In that one scene we have:

1) Sam saying his whole world imploded after Dean died and he ran

2) Sam making it clear he does NOT want to be pitied

3) Sam willing to talk about Dean and Sam willing to be there to hear Amelia talk about Don

So... this scene (for me) establishes that Sam DID emotionally collapse after Dean disappeared. That Sam was completely convinced Dean was dead. That Sam went to his 'go to' - running away from his current life - to deal with his distress.  These are all completely in-character Sam responses.  And it says to me that Sam had written Kevin off as yet another failure on his part (Sam's) to protect someone he cared about.  In short, Sam was seriously messed up in a PTSD/Depression/Shock kind of way and ran away. 

 

BUT... Carver only showed us that scene between he and Amelia.  It was, I suspect, to explain why Amelia was important to him.  How she helped him put himself back together. 

 

Then Carver had Sam claim he'd already explained why he left to Dean.  And that is just a NON-SEQUITOR.  Dean didn't get to see the scene w/ Sam and Amelia.  But in typical Sam and Dean fashion - they both think what they think and stubbornly DON'T talk it out.  Simultaneously in character and yet manufactured angst.  But Carver, I suspect, thought we would GET that Sam wasn't really explaining well to Dean but erroneously thought that WE WOULD UNDERSTAND SAM'S POV.  But we didn't.  It was one little scene with a ton of others that don't reinforce what we see in that scene.  Instead we see Sam acknowledging he didn't do what he should (classic Sam hairshirt) regarding Kevin and being unapologetic for not looking for Dean.

 

So... Carver failed.  But, that one scene DID, in fact, make Sam's actions much more understandable during the 'year of hiatus'.  But without other scenes to back that up - it's just not given the importance it required.

 

So... still pissed at Carver for screwing up Sam characterization in terms of where he left the audience. OTOH, I think Carver's beliefs regarding Sam's motivation/actions are more in line with the Sam's characterization than what he demonstrated.

 

I hope this makes sense.  It doesn't FIX S8 (not remotely) but I'm more comfortable about Carver understanding Sam than I was before. 

[Mick Lady]

So... this scene (for me) establishes that Sam DID emotionally collapse after Dean disappeared. That Sam was completely convinced Dean was dead. That Sam went to his 'go to' - running away from his current life - to deal with his distress.  These are all completely in-character Sam responses.  And it says to me that Sam had written Kevin off as yet another failure on his part (Sam's) to protect someone he cared about.  In short, Sam was seriously messed up in a PTSD/Depression/Shock kind of way and ran away.

 

 

The thing that pisses me off SueB, is that this seems out of character for Sam. In season four, when Dean returned from Hell, and thought Sam had saved him, Sam said to him;

 

"Look, Dean, I wish I had done it, alright? There's no other way that this could have gone down. I tried everything.That's the truth.

I tried opening the devil's gate. Hell, I tried to bargain, Dean, But no demon would deal, all right? You were rotting in hell for months -- For months -- And I couldn't stop it."

 

So why now, did Sam not look for Dean, let alone abandon Kevin? I'm I Deangirl, but even I know Sam is better than that!

[catrox14]

The fuckery of Sam not looking for Dean is so silly. But I guess Carver thought he could get away with it by having that little bit of dialogue of about the "don't look for each other" rule that didn't exist.  I think by the time Sam explained to Amelia what he went through the damage was already done.  I know I was all fuck off Sam by that time.  Too little too late

[AwesomO4000]

I agree with you, Mick Lady, and in season 4, we saw that even when Sam was a drunken mess after Dean's death, he still tried to do everything he could. Sam also looked for Dean in "Time After Time..." and he had much less to go on in terms of what had happened to Dean than he did at the end of season 7.

 

But even if we say Sam thought Dean was dead and in heaven - which he could've at least checked... maybe asked an angel or two? That doesn't excuse Kevin. Because the thing about Kevin was that Sam knew Kevin wasn't dead. He saw Crowley take him. So Sam's not trying to get Kevin away from Crowley? I agree with Mick Lady. Sam was better than that, in my opinion.

 

If they wanted me to believe Sam not looking for Dean and Kevin, after Crowley's little speech, Sam should've been flung into a wall by Crowley and suffered some brain damage, so that when he woke up... then thinking he was too late to do anything would've made much more sense - especially in terms of Kevin... but I'm betting that Sera didn't have any idea what Carver was going to do so she would have no reason to write that in there.

 

Of course Carver could've easily done that afterwards... It would make sense, for example, for Sam to try to get Kevin first - mostly a civilian, and Sam knew he was alive, so go get Kevin. But Sam doesn't even make it inside and then Crowley injures him... head injury for a while, coma, whatever... now we have a legitimate excuse for Sam to think that he is too late to do anything, freak out, run away, hit the dog, etc. But nope, Carver couldn't be bothered to give Sam even that kind of out. It would've taken all of one scene of show time, and I'm pretty sure most viewers wouldn't have minded one less Amelia scene or five in order to have something like that. But apparently Sam isn't worthy of that consideration as long as we have heroic Dean and awesome brother in arms Benny.

 

All that said, as usual, I love your optimism SueB. Don't ever change. Maybe someday I'll have to go back and see if I see what you saw in that scene, but unfortunately that episode doesn't do much for me, and just the thought that I might accidentally see some of "Citizen Fang" ... which I loathe - not quite with the intensity of Aeryn's hate of "Swan Song," but pretty damn close. If I didn't think that Carver was trying his best to throw Sam's character under the bus, that episode sealed the deal for me. And if he really wasn't trying? That's almost worse, because to do that much character damage by accident... geesh, way to not understand your character or your audience. Like at all. *Goes to pout in an internet corner until I finish my work tonight and can write more of my fanfic to make myself feel better*

Edited November 11, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[enaiowen]

See, I could buy Sam falling apart and being too lost to even try. Everyone has a breaking point. Sometimes the catalyst can seem minor in comparison to other events but it is just that one thing too much-and Sam had already had one hell of a year, literally and figuratively. So I can agree that that was what we were supposed to see.

The execution is another story. While I thought it could have been expressed better, I really could understand Sam finally reaching the end of his rope and just dropping everything and running after everything he had been through- meaning his whole life not just recent events.

My real issue, and where I thought they really dropped the ball, was with his continuous callousness toward Dean when he returned. Nor did he seem too fussed about Kevin. But at least he owned up to his mistake there and tried to rectify it.

He never gave any real validation to Dean's perfectly understandable feelings of abandonment and seemed more irritated that Dean was alive. Like Dean being dead finally allowed Sam to have the wonderful normal life he always wanted and now here was back to screw it up.

I think that was the primary reason for Dean's prickliness and continued pushing of the issue. Sam never actually acknowledged those feelings. He never said, It must've been awful and I can understand why you would feel the way you do. And he never clearly expressed how broken and incapable of functioning we are meant to believe he was to the one person who most needed to hear it. Especially since Sam is very well aware of Dean's abandonment issues.

That's really all I would have needed and I think it would have gone a long way toward soothing Dean's feelings as well. I cannot understand (and I *like* Sam) why they had Sam be so unpleasant other than to manufacture discord and angst.

Edited November 11, 2015 by enaiowen

[AwesomO4000]

My real issue, and where I thought they really dropped the ball, was with his continuous callousness toward Dean when he returned.

He never gave any real validation to Dean's perfectly understandable feelings of abandonment and seemed more irritated that Dean was alive. Like Dean being dead finally allowed Sam to have the wonderful normal life he always wanted and now here was back to screw it up.

 

Which in itself was out of character, in my opinion. Sam hadn't been shown to express any real desire for a "normal life" since about season 2, and instead had expressed mainly thoughts to the contrary, sometimes vehemently - for example his "we're not missing anything" comment from "Swap Meat" concerning a normal life. Typically losing Dean meant throwing himself into hunting - "Mystery Spot", season 4, even soulless Sam. In my opinion, bringing up a Sam wanting a "normal life" and wanting to cling to that to the point of being resentful of Dean over it was something from Sam maybe early season 1, if even that. In terms of character development, to me it made little sense, especially considering how dysfunctional the Amelia relationship was... and it was pretty much over anyway, because Sam chose to leave, so what was Sam annoyed with Dean for? It made very little sense.

 

I cannot understand (and I *like* Sam) why they had Sam be so unpleasant other than to manufacture discord and angst.

 

I guess for Carver, the angst was worth trashing Sam's character for. He could just "fix" it later. In the meantime, I guess he figured he could wave shiny Benny in my direction to distract me. Didn't work. It mostly just made me resent Benny, who I really could've liked if not for the rest.

[Mick Lady]

I agree with you, Mick Lady, and in season 4, we saw that even when Sam was a drunken mess after Dean's death, he still tried to do everything he could. Sam also looked for Dean in "Time After Time..." and he had much less to go on in terms of what had happened to Dean than he did at the end of season 7.

 

But even if we say Sam thought Dean was dead and in heaven - which he could've at least checked... maybe asked an angel or two? That doesn't excuse Kevin. Because the thing about Kevin was that Sam knew Kevin wasn't dead. He saw Crowley take him. So Sam's not trying to get Kevin away from Crowley? I agree with Mick Lady. Sam was better than that, in my opinion.

 

If they wanted me to believe Sam not looking for Dean and Kevin, after Crowley's little speech, Sam should've been flung into a wall by Crowley and suffered some brain damage, so that when he woke up... then thinking he was too late to do anything would've made much more sense - especially in terms of Kevin... but I'm betting that Sera didn't have any idea what Carver was going to do so she would have no reason to write that in there.

 

Of course Carver could've easily done that afterwards... It would make sense, for example, for Sam to try to get Kevin first - mostly a civilian, and Sam knew he was alive, so go get Kevin. But Sam doesn't even make it inside and then Crowley injures him... head injury for a while, coma, whatever... now we have a legitimate excuse for Sam to think that he is too late to do anything, freak out, run away, hit the dog, etc. But nope, Carver couldn't be bothered to give Sam even that kind of out. It would've taken all of one scene of show time, and I'm pretty sure most viewers wouldn't have minded one less Amelia scene or five in order to have something like that. But apparently Sam isn't worthy of that consideration as long as we have heroic Dean and awesome brother in arms Benny.

 

All that said, as usual, I love your optimism SueB. Don't ever change. Maybe someday I'll have to go back and see if I see what you saw in that scene, but unfortunately that episode doesn't do much for me, and just the thought that I might accidentally see some of "Citizen Fang" ... which I loathe - not quite with the intensity of Aeryn's hate of "Swan Song," but pretty damn close. If I didn't think that Carver was trying his best to throw Sam's character under the bus, that episode sealed the deal for me. And if he really wasn't trying? That's almost worse, because to do that much character damage by accident... geesh, way to not understand your character or your audience. Like at all. *Goes to pout in an internet corner until I finish my work tonight and can write more of my fanfic to make myself feel better*

 

"Make myself feel better"? How about the rest of us?!! I wasn't gonna say a word, not a single word, but you brought it up.

 

As to Sera having no idea of Carver's plans, okay, but that's piss poor writing and development for these writers. I know there are tons of Samgirls out there (including Hayward, Mick's bass player) that are truly pissed off, (still) about this! As for understanding the audience, you would think after all this time they'd have this down by now.

 

I especially love Kevin myself, and will never stop laughing at him saying to his girlfriend (when Crowley released her temporarily), "You're going to your safety school" I spent five years of hell on an admissions committee for a grad school, and I could tell you some great stories for hours about students (and their "helicopter parents") that didn't make the cut!

[enaiowen]

Can't get the quote thingy to work for me right now but I agree with Awesome that the whole "normal life" thing made no sense.

And maybe they were going for Sam finally getting to actually experience it (Jessica who?) and realizing he wanted it after all. But that doesn't work either imo for all the reasons mentioned. Not to mention the fact that if that's what they were going for they did a really lousy job showing it. There was nothing about Amelia herself or the way Sam was with her that said loving relationship.

Sam left her by his own choice before he knew his brother was back so to then blame Dean for that......I just don't get what they were going for here.

Conflict for the sake of conflict I guess and imo both characters suffered for it.

[Aeryn13]

 

He never gave any real validation to Dean's perfectly understandable feelings of abandonment and seemed more irritated that Dean was alive. Like Dean being dead finally allowed Sam to have the wonderful normal life he always wanted and now here was back to screw it up.

 

The writing for that was bad but quite frankly, for me it was also an acting issue. If Sam comes across on paper exactly like "wow, you`re back? that`s inconvenient and it bugs me that you don`t even get how inconvenient you are and don`t seem apologetic for it but acting all entitled", then at least don`t play that as completely straight. Or worse, play it all the way up.

 

That attitude in that situation? Is never going to come across sympathetic. For me, it would have needed some severe playing AGAINST the lines there. Granted, the directors are all also at fault there because they should have either asked for or used different takes then the ones that ended up being used. 

 

Like the writers would really care or even notice that someone fixed their tone-deaf lines? I don`t think so.

[Mick Lady]

I never got Sam and Amelia, and can't figure out why they got together. The only bond I can come up with is dogs, which we were shown in the episode "Dark Side Of the Moon.", when one of Sam's "heaven" memories involved a Golden named Bones. (I remember stuff like that because I'm a dog nut!) But this doesn't explain it enough for me.

 

Sam's resentment of Dean took me aback too. The Boys have always been about each other. I chalk it up to bad writing and directing. I'm disappointed the actors didn't correct it, they know these characters!

[companionenvy]

I'm really appreciating this discussion, which articulates some of the issues I had with S8. I'm of the camp that Sam's failure to look for Dean (and, to a lesser extent, to help Kevin) is understandable, and not because of some stupid deal they never actually made. After everything both Sam and Dean have gone through, they should be rights both be psychological messes. It seems absolutely realistic that Sam had reached a point of such emotional exhaustion that he simply could not go on yet another probably hopeless quest to retrieve his brother -- especially given that his resources really were as low as they'd ever been. Bobby was gone. Cas was wherever Dean was. Unlike when Dean was in hell, Sam didn't even know what had happened to his brother. So that didn't bother me.

 

The problem is Sam's behavior upon Dean's return. I get that maybe the writers felt that they were past their quota on heartfelt reunions, but Sam didn't even seem mildly relieved to have Dean back. Then he snits about Benny for half a season, which is not only petty, it is completely at odds with his previous (relative) toleration for monsters who seem inclined to do good. His hard-line policy on Benny is so extreme that I can only include that it comes from jealousy rather than actual concern over Dean befriending a vampire, which makes Sam look terrible. It is one thing to have reservations, another thing to actively conspire to have Benny killed and make Dean's rejection of him a condition of continuing their relationship. 

[SueB]

I can't disagree at all with everything pointed out.  I think enaiowen effectively summed up what I was saying -- after the year Sam had, he just 'broke'.  He was just weeks post-hallucifer recovery. And I really like the idea of having him being thrown up against the wall as being a way of sort of scrambling his already scrambled noggin.  That would have helped.  Hell, about 1000 different options would have helped.  But rather than pretend the first half of S8 Sam did not exist, I'm going to stick with my 'mental break' Sam who compartmentalizes the shit out of everything.  And yes, he acted resentful towards Dean.  Again, I think that is the self-loathing coming thru. In my little head canon (where I COMPLETELY acknowledge I sit alone), Sam not only knew he screwed up, he was pretty horrified by it himself.  But rather than ask for forgiveness or any of the things a normal person would do, he really wanted to run away again. Being with Dean was uncomfortable and Sam acted shitty rather than drag out the why he was uncomfortable.  He pushed back, irrationally. I don't think Sam could bring himself to face the reality of what he had done -- so he bitched about Benny. He looked for potentially going back to school.  He thought about Amelia (his happy place).  Dude was delusional.  But not in a clinical sense (like S7). 

 

In sum, Sam's brain had enough scrambling in the past that him running at the start after some sort of "mental break" makes sense to me. Once he had Dean back and the full extent of his failure was evident, Sam 'noped' himself into a defensive perspective because it was more than he could handle. Even now, I doubt Sam would want to examine what happened. 

[catrox14]

I always thought we were supposed to think Sam made a healthy and reasonable choice for himself...and here was Dean showing up and fucking up a life he never had before (you except for Jessica for several years at Stanford.....)  and that Dean was the one being unreasonable, and having rage and anger issues and that his judgment and emotions were not to be trusted because he brought back a vampire friend.

 

I feel like if Jared had imbued an iota of a state of mind into his performance prior to him telling Amelia halfway through the season, I would have had some sympathy for Sam's plight. But Jared IMO did nothing to show me that Sam had any kind of PTSD or whatever you want to call that would have ever lead to me to think he was still suffering when Dean came back. He seemed pretty happy to not be hunting. He seemed pretty unhappy that Dean was back in that it reminded him of his abandoning Kevin.

 

Sam apologized for abandoning Kevin, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Sam EVER directly apologized to Dean for not looking for him. He told him why he didn't, but to me I don't think Sam really ever felt bad about that choice. .

 

What a mess s8 was.

[lmdreamer]

that was pretty good lighting there at the end did anyone notice how part of the room got darker around dean when he was questioned about letting amara go?

Also it was dissappointing that cass got the demon tablet away from metatron so easily.

[lmdreamer]

sorry wrong thread.  feel free to remove.

[Aeryn13]

 

And yes, he acted resentful towards Dean.  Again, I think that is the self-loathing coming thru.

 

Again, that is something that can be conveyed through performance. If a scene is played as just straight-up bitchy and I don`t see underlying self-loathing, then I`m not able to read it in.

 

But I do believe  the writers agreed with Sam and thought Dean actually DID screw up Sam`s great new life and should have been apologizing profusely for not being dead and daring to get himself out of Purgatory. And going by the Comic Con interviews before Season 8, Jared agreed with that mindset wholeheartedly and that is how he played it. Only when that went over like a lead balloon with audiences - because who would have thought that attitude can never not come across as shitty? - everyone changed their tune. They couldn`t even stand by their earlier endorsing of that crap.   

[lmdreamer]

I don't know if this is the right thread but since this pertains to last season and this season Ill ask it here.  How can every single person or being who was questioned about the mark of cain know about the darkness but not know that the mark of cain was the lock and key to the darkness's prison cell besides death? I guess the simplest answer was metatron was lying in The hunter games but wouldn't the imprisonment and capture be apart of those tales told in the angelic and demonic realms? Shouldn't they have known or heard a rumor or too?  It seemed implied that crowley know more or guessed more than he was saying. Is it possible that either metatron, crowley or both wanted the darkness released? Did metatron and the darkness have a connection? The last three episodes demonstrated that he was willing to die to protect those secrets. In "inside man" he only gave information about cass's grace and the following episode he had plenty of chances to tell cas whatever else he knew.  If the grace was truly completely gone would he have then given up the mark of cains secret or have simply begged and ultimately die?

[SueB]

IDK. Meta torn likes to be a shithead just on principle. He thought info might provide leverage do he tried to exploit it IMO.

[Mick Lady]

Hee! "Shithead on principle" is now an official part of my vocabulary!

 

I know so many people...

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Just My Imagination" episode thread:

Oh yeah; Dean was always the mediator which is why he learned and learned early that he was the unimportant one in the family and that no one cared about his interests. It's partially why Sam is always surprised at things Dean does or has an interest in. It's partially why John knew that an important thing for Sam was to go to college but the best he could do for Dean was "I want Dean to have a home".

 

I disagree with this. I don't think that in the grand scheme of things either son was the "important" one, and I think that this episode just furthered the evidence of this. Just because John knew that Sam wanted to go to college - which I'm sure Sam made known anyway - doesn't mean he thought it was important or cared about it. That was shown in "The Girl Next Door" when John thought it was more important for Sam to research his case for him than it was for Sam to have time to do his studies.

 

As far as I could see, Dean wanted to be a hunter, and that's what he seemed to say, so I'm not sure how Sam would know anything different. And both brothers are often finding things they didn't know about each other - even still now... with a recent example being Dean finding out about Sam's hobby of tracking serial killer "statistics," even though there were previous hints of it (Sam did seem to know an awful lot about H. H. Holmes off the top of his head.) But Dean didn't know that Sam used to pray every night either or even that he had been spiritual, so I think the not knowing interests thing goes both ways.

 

In general though, I agree that Sam doesn't seem to know quite as many things about Dean, but part of that could be that Dean tends to share much less than Sam does rather than that he doesn't find Dean's interests important. In my opinion, there's been evidence that Sam is actually pretty good at figuring out what Dean would do - for example Sam's tracking Dean down fairly quickly in "Point of No Return," guessing what the stops on Dean's "farewell tour" would be, even guessing somehow that he would visit Lisa - and for Sam to be able to do that, he would have to know Dean and his habits fairly well, I would think.

[mertensia]

Well Dean shares less because mediators/peacemakers learn early on that the mediated don't want to hear. If the US and the UK are fighting over which is better, Coke or Pepsi you think mediator Norway's "actually I prefer Canada Dry ginger ale" is something they care about? They don't, though they might try to sway Norway to their side. YED pointed out in front of the three of them (sort of) that Sam was John's favorite and no one denied it. So not only is Dean mediator but he's the mediator between the father and the davored son.

Also because John didn't want to hear. Not ever. Dean was eager to be a hunter therefore Dean was a kind of extension of John. But then Sam learned to shut up because a) Dean didn't want to hear it; b) and neither did John. Though I imagine at first Sam was louder in what Sam wanted.

[AwesomO4000]

YED pointed out in front of the three of them (sort of) that Sam was John's favorite and no one denied it. So not only is Dean mediator but he's the mediator between the father and the davored son.

 

That is one valid interpretation. I tend to think, though, that YED was lying to cause maximum pain. For me, there is not much evidence in show that would support that Sam is John's favorite. He didn't seem to act that way anyway.*  I don't think he really had a favorite, and despite that he was shown at times to love his sons, the mission (to kill YED) and his idealized love for Mary almost always took precidence, in my opinion. The only time we really saw John deviate from that was to make the deal to save Dean's life.

 

As for Dean being the mediator. I do agree he likely was one, but Dean likely did that partially because he wanted his "family" intact. I'm guessing he was sometimes trying to make peace where it really couldn't (and maybe on some occasions shouldn't) exist, because that's what Dean wanted. He was in a rough spot, but likely sometimes one of his own making, because Dean was trying to get what he wanted: a happy, functional family. But some families just are dysfunctional where no amount of mediating is going to make anything but surface and short-lived peace.

 

I can see all of the sides here: John wanted his mission to be first and foremost, and Dean shared that and all was good - except for Sam, who just wouldn't follow orders without question, the pain in the ass, so I'll yell at him until he does. Then there was Sam, who wanted to belong, but also wanted to be his own person and just didn't feel like he quite fit in, but John - and by extension sometimes Dean - didn't have time for his introspective bull crap, so Sam was sometimes an annoying pain in the ass so someone would pay attention to him**. And then there was Dean who just wanted everyone to get along already - so shut up Dad about Sam not being ready and/or being a pain and shut up Sam about Dad not listening to your feelings and just do what you are told to do and like it.

 

* Much of what could be seen as concern for Sam from John could also be interpreted as concern about Sam. John's "checking up on" Sam in college could have been just as much John checking to make sure Sam wasn't "going evil" as it was to make sure that Sam was okay (and likely more the first thing.) This was after all the man who Dean thought would say he "wasted a bullet" by saving Sam... which ouch. So I'm thinking even Dean deep down knew what John's priorities were: i.e. the mission came first. Interesting that YED's comments about Sam supposedly being the favorite were in that same episode - which is the main reason why I suspected that YED was lying. I trust Dean's opinion/assessment of the situation over YED's any day of the week.

 

** Though John was probably lucky that Sam went the "studying so I can get into college" route rather than the "woo hoo, I'm on my own. I'll party, drink, and get addicted to drugs" (or get a girl pregnant) route to get attention. Considering that Sam did end up having addiction problems later, I would say that John was very lucky it only turned out the way it did. With Sam being left on his own so often, things could've gone a much worse route. And had Dean not been in the picture, I'm guessing the chances would've been greater that they would have.

[SueB]

* Much of what could be seen as concern for Sam from John could also be interpreted as concern about Sam. John's "checking up on" Sam in college could have been just as much John checking to make sure Sam wasn't "going evil" as it was to make sure that Sam was okay (and likely more the first thing.) This was after all the man who Dean thought would say he "wasted a bullet" by saving Sam... which ouch. So I'm thinking even Dean deep down knew what John's priorities were: i.e. the mission came first. Interesting that YED's comments about Sam supposedly being the favorite were in that same episode - which is the main reason why I suspected that YED was lying. I trust Dean's opinion/assessment of the situation over YED's any day of the week.

 

While I TOTALLY agree YED lies for maximum pain I think part of what he said was true.

True-ish

"You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is they don’t need you. Not like you need them."

I think Dean DID need Sam and John more than either needed Dean.  In fact when Sam made his hurtful statements to Dean in The Purge, all I could think of was that what YED said was true. Now I KNOW Sam was lashing out, but the truth is... Dean is just wired different than Sam and John.  And he needed them more.  In "Shadow" Sam basically acknowledged that he wanted to get back to "his life" without Dean. I don't feel that particular sentiment was the usual "running away".  Later, when Sam went into "RoboSam" mode, I felt that was both a combination of need and guilt.  At THIS point, I think Sam realizes that his life is going to be hunting and he needs Dean. But that is kinda a recent development.  This does not make Sam bad. In fact, it makes him more "normal". As Lisa pointed out to Dean, loving your sibling doesn't mean you raise them from the dead.  

 

False-ish:

"Sam – he’s clearly John’s favorite. Even when they fight, it’s more concern than he’s ever shown you."

John DID show more concern for Sam's well being than Deans.  He made it Dean's JOB#1 ("And most important.." "Look out for Sammy").  It seems evident that John was VERY proud of Dean but he also took him for granted. Dean gave his love to John so COMPLETELY. He gave his loyalty.  John had to expend more energy to get Sam's loyaty.  BUT, this doesn't make Sam John's favorite. It makes them different.  Every parent can tell you that each child is different and it doesn't mean you love one more than the other.  Your relationship with them is complicated but you still LOVE them without limits.  Sam got under John's skin (very easily I might add). He knew just what buttons to push to make John blow his top.  And John measured Sam's obedience against the Dean yardstick.  So Sam always came up short.  But this is classic birth order friction.  And YED was just saying John loved Sam more to hurt Dean.  Because it was fun (to YED).  

 

Personally, I think John suspected YED was after Sam but didn't have any idea about the 'special kids' until he 'picked up fresh trail' a year before the event in Dead Man's Blood.  So while he might have been concerned about Sam's welfare, I personally don't think he was concerned about Sam going darkside.  Not until AFTER that last year.  And when he told Dean he may have to kill Sam, IMO John knew that Sam would rather be dead than darkside.  I don't think John was being 'save-the-world-altruistic'. I think he was asking Dean to do what was right for Sam (death before darkside in John... and likely Sam's mind).  Of course that was a SHITTY thing to put on Dean. But John was ultimately weak.  He lost Pastor Jim and Caleb. He simply could NOT stand losing Dean.  So, he made the deal and put the burden all on Dean. Not because he didn't love Dean but because of how much he trusted Dean.  

 

Again, having a different relationship with each child does not equate to having a different amount of love.  At least it certainly never has in my life nor anyone's I personally know.  

Edited December 7, 2015 by SueB

[Omegamom]

I gotta say, Awesome, that it's hard for things to "get worse" than unleashing The Apocalypse. ;-)

[catrox14]

 

Again, having a different relationship with each child does not equate to having a different amount of love.  At least it certainly never has in my life nor anyone's I personally kno

 

This discussion is interesting. IMO, as terrible as it sounds, I really do think some parents DO love one child more than another...or maybe it's not that they love the child more but they LIKE and respect one child more than another.  I think that is actually pretty common :(.  Parents are only human.

 

I have a bit of different notion about why John treated Sam and Dean so differently. I really do think John loved Sam as the baby of the family.  He couldn't understand his rebelliousness, when he adored Sam. I think John liked Dean because Dean wanted to be like him. That's probably not uncommon for first sons and fathers. 

 

I think Dean did believe that John loved him right up until the moment John screamed at Dean for not doing the job right with protecting Sammy from the Shrtiga. Dean had his own guilt about failing to protect Sam already so combine that watching John cuddling Sammy, brushing his hair back, hugging him and then looking over Sammy's shoulder and giving Dean with the coldest, harshest withering look. I think Dean might have internalized that moment as John loving Sam more.

 

So in that moment the child Dean vowed to himself to always take care of Sam and long as Dean was Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument and Saved Sammy, then John would love him again and always. I think that stayed with Dean....heck it might still be there a little bit.  YMMV

[AwesomO4000]

While I TOTALLY agree YED lies for maximum pain I think part of what he said was true.

True-ish

"You know, you fight and you fight for this family, but the truth is they don’t need you. Not like you need them."

 

Oh, I agree with you on this being mostly true - I touched on it in my explanation of the family dynamic: that Dean is sometimes the mediator so that he can try to keep his "happy family" tableau - I should've specified that I was refering to the "Sam is clearly John's favorite" part being the lie.

 

Personally, I think John suspected YED was after Sam but didn't have any idea about the 'special kids' until he 'picked up fresh trail' a year before the event in Dead Man's Blood.  So while he might have been concerned about Sam's welfare, I personally don't think he was concerned about Sam going darkside.  Not until AFTER that last year.  And when he told Dean he may have to kill Sam, IMO John knew that Sam would rather be dead than darkside.  I don't think John was being 'save-the-world-altruistic'. I think he was asking Dean to do what was right for Sam (death before darkside in John... and likely Sam's mind).  Of course that was a SHITTY thing to put on Dean. But John was ultimately weak.  He lost Pastor Jim and Caleb. He simply could NOT stand losing Dean.  So, he made the deal and put the burden all on Dean. Not because he didn't love Dean but because of how much he trusted Dean. 

 

This could be true. I think it would be in the interpretation of what "a while" means (which is what John told YED when the demon asked if he knew the truth about Sam.) It's also unclear how much John learned from Missouri. He learned about the demon surely, but whether he knew that the YED was after Sam and whether he shoud worry about that, I don't know. I just found it odd that John would go check up on Sam, but not even let Sam know that he was there. I also don't know where the stuff from "Phantom Traveler" fits in, because there was a lot in that episode that, for me, either didn't fit with the characterization before or after or fit with the canon that came afterwards (the demon stuff). For example, John bragging about Sam being off at college just seems odd, not because he might not be really proud - though that, too seems weird, since John didn't seem to have much respect for that kind of thing, blue collar pride and all that - but because it would seem weird that he'd give that kind of information out to casual aquaintances. If he's worried for Sam off by himself at college, it would seem weird to me to be broadcasting to the general public that Sam is off by himself at college, but I digress. Basically, I'm saying that I guess we don't know for sure what John knew or when, so his reasons for checking up on Sam at college could go either way, but one thing I'm fairly sure of...

 

Once John did find out about Sam, he didn't much trust him anymore. And this goes to your second point - that John entrusted Dean with the "save or kill" Sammy directive because he really trusted Dean. I agree. Poor Sam. John must've thought he was either an idiot or that he was doomed to fail, because he didn't even trust Sam with telling him the truth, so that maybe Sam might be able to keep himself out of trouble. Nope, he told Dean... with instructions not to tell Sam after he'd lied to Sam about it. No wonder Sam gets annoyed about feeling powerless and like he might fail. Not even his own father had any faith in him.

 

I gotta say, Awesome, that it's hard for things to "get worse" than unleashing The Apocalypse. ;-)

 

This is true, but at least Sam fought hard to stop it after his mistake. Imagine a Sam who could be easily bought or influenced, because he was addicted to alcohol or drugs and not thinking clearly. He'd perhaps have more easily been talked into the power trip - like an Ava, but worse. He might've gone ahead with opening the gates and heading Azazel's army. Who knows what havoc that might've unleashed before Sam finally let Lucifer out. Of course there's the problem of how would Dean have ended up in hell and broken the first seal, but details schmetails. ; )

[mertensia]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: had Dean not made the deal Zachariah would have probably just dumped him into Hell. Dean probably would have spilled blood fighting for his life.

[AwesomO4000]

Good point.

 

The angels often threatened to throw Dean back in if he didn't do what they wanted, so I assume they could do it - they sure seemed serious.

Edited December 8, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

It must be very hard for angels-created to be rule followers- to run into people like the Winchesters. Or cats. I can just see my cat "so...no food, petting or snuggling with you? Why do you exist again? *Yawn* go away." Followed by her taking a nap.

[AwesomO4000]

Now I'm remembering the cat who called Castiel a dumbass. Hee.

[mertensia]

I don't think she's say dumbass.... she'd yell at him for not making her happiness the center of his existence, though.

[SueB]

I love that there are cat people here who "get" cats. You're making me miss my kitty Muggles (died after 11 years, yes she was still a kitty).  Her favorite spot: between me and the keyboard.  Center of the universe INDEED.

Edited December 11, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I love that there are cat people here who "get" cats. You're making me miss my kitty Muggles (died after 11 years, yes she was still a kitty).  Her favorite spot: between me and the keyboard.  Center of the universe INDEED.

 

I am such a cat person (and a dog person). My kitty 'Kitty' died 12 years ago and I miss her every damn day.  She used to sit next to me when I would play the piano. And she watched baseball on TV with me.  She would follow the ball and try to grab it on the screen.

[SueB]

TNT just finished up Season 7 in their daily airings. I've been home so I've been able to keep up. At a recent convention, Jared made a comment to a newbie to be "patient" with the Show during Season 7. So, while this was re-airing, I thought I'd figure out why he (and I think Jensen as well) appeared to not care as much for S7. Here's some thoughts:

1) Baby was on lockdown for the bulk of the season. That was kinda evil and I think did Sera Gamble no favors with the boys.

2) Looking at the major and minor arcs of the season, I've identified MY impression of them versus my suspicions of what J2 may have thought based on past commentary. Note, it's just a guess.... I'm not trying to speak for them... Just trying to sort out what MIGHT be not so good and what they MIGHT have liked:

A. MAJOR ARC: Leviathans as the Big-Bad

SueB - pretty good overall concept, nice job on laying the groundwork for Soylent Us plot. Didn't like the CGI rendering of the big mouths.

J2 - They thought James Patrick Stuart was good and I think they had fun with the dick jokes, not sure about their thoughts on them as the Big Bad

B: SUB-ARC: The Boys lose everything (Baby, fake id's, Bobby, road food....)

SueB: Pretty standard hero-journey stuff, thought it was a bit overdone. I loved everything Frank.

J2: I think they really didn't like this part -- they weren't "them"

C: SUB-ARC: Demise of Cas (as originally planned)

SueB: Gamble's original plan to drop Misha? Fatally flawed. I'm pretty sure Cas came back because Gamble was already on the way out and Carver was going to come in.

J2: I think they wanted Misha back. Not just for the show but because it makes it harder on them when they are the only players.

D: SUB-ARC: Dean's despair/alcoholism

SueB: A bit 'angsty-without-words'. And EVERYONE told him to suck it up. Except Sam. Sam just had worried face and asked him not to get himself killed. It's mentioned that this despair comes from losing Cas, being worried about his brother, and then losing Bobby.....but it's never paid off. And they didn't mention HIS Hell time (as a parallel to Sam's Hell Time) except for the "stone one" speech. Then they dropped it like a hot potato as the season wrapped, leaving Jensen to say that Purgatory must have sobered him up. I'm glad to see they addressed his functional alcoholism in S11.

J2: We know Jensen prefers action over angst. I think he probably wasn't a huge fan of this sub-arc.

E. SUB-ARC Sam's broken head

SueB: I love Mark P so I enjoyed him on the screen. The resolution was Cas Ex Machina but I was kinda just relieved it was over.

J2: I think Jared liked the arc because of his fondness for the emotional bits. But I suspect he was also glad when it wrapped.

F. SUB-ARC: We kill monsters (Amy then Emma)

SueB: Hated with the heat of a 1000 suns. Seriously contrived gaak that made needless angst.

J2: No idea

3) Characters:

SueB: Some EXCELLENT characters introduced this year: Frank, Kevin, Charlie, that realtor lady with the too-white smile (she was over the top but I laughed a lot), and many other one-episode characters. Nice call-back characters: Jo, Bobby, Meg, and Jody.

J2: I think the guest actors were a highlight for them based on past comments.

4) Other bits:

Sue B: Sam's hair was HORRIBLE at the start of the year - it was choppy and stringy. I think they finally feathered the bangs a bit and did a blow-out or something because it really improved mid season.

J2: I don't recall any "other bits" comments made.

5) Highlight/Lowlight episodes:

Highlights:

SueB: Meet The New Boss, Slash Fiction, Time After Time, The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo, Reading Is Fundamental

J2: Death's Door. Jensen liked The Girl Next Door (the one he directed), I believe. Not sure any other episodes I recall getting any specific mention except for the Charlie one.

Lowlights:

SueB: The Girl Next Door (due to Amy plot), Shut Up, Dr Phil, Season 7, Time for a Wedding

J2: I can't recall them singling out a particular episode in S7 as "nope".

So.... "Be patient"....If I was to flag anything, I'm going to guess it was the loss of all the normal touches, the absence of Cas, the stretched out angst.

Having said all that ... I found I really liked S7 a lot more than I think the average person does. Some of the episodes are brilliant and some are horrific... But I found the season compelling enough to make sure I watched it most mornings in the past couple of weeks.

Edited January 16, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

I'm a S07 fan. I thought, overall, it was sardonic and hilarious with the big bad arc. I loved Frank, and wish they hadn't killed him. And boy oh boy, did they bring in some great new characters. And Sam's harrowing journey with Hallucifer, oy!

[AwesomO4000]

I'm a S07 fan. I thought, overall, it was sardonic and hilarious with the big bad arc. I loved Frank, and wish they hadn't killed him. And boy oh boy, did they bring in some great new characters. And Sam's harrowing journey with Hallucifer, oy!

I'm a fan of season 7, too. As you said, it was sardonic, and I enjoyed the dark humor of it all. A lot of the one-off characters were written with that kind of feel to them, and I liked that attention to keeping with the overall dark-humor theme. And many of the episodes delivered in that regard as well. Despite the dark themes it explored, in my opinion, season 7 had the most humor of all the seasons which in the end made it more enjoyable for me than some of the other seasons that explored dark themes, such as season 4, 8, and 9 all of which seemed somewhat grim for me in comparison without the humor to temper all the heaviness.

1) Baby was on lockdown for the bulk of the season. That was kinda evil and I think did Sera Gamble no favors with the boys.

But it lead to one of my favorite scenes of the season in one of my favorite episodes of the season: that scene where Dean throws the My Little Pony in the back seat ("eeeee-eek") and then quotes Dirty Dancing. That whole scene was made of win for me. "Swayze movie, Sam. Swayze gets a pass." Yes, yes he does, Dean.

I loved everything Frank.

Frank was great, and I loved how he was sprinkled throughout the season, keeping the main arc still in the mix - and organically so rather than shoe-horned in* - even throughout the monster of the week episodes. I again thought that it was a nice attention to detail that I thought season 7 was very good at.

* I entirely believed that Dean would want to reassure himself that progress was still being made on finding Dick while he was having to work a case.

D: SUB-ARC: Dean's despair/alcoholism

SueB: A bit 'angsty-without-words'. And EVERYONE told him to suck it up. Except Sam. Sam just had worried face and asked him not to get himself killed. It's mentioned that this despair comes from losing Cas, being worried about his brother, and then losing Bobby.....but it's never paid off.

While I agree that it didn't quite pay off* I think there was more concern for Dean in season 7 than we had seen previously. For me, Sam didn't just tell Dean not to get killed (though for me that was an effective scene). He tried several times to convince Dean to get some help, and he worried about Dean's drinking and somewhat self-destructive behavior. He tried to get Dean to stop driving himself to research all the time and instead to get more rest (although sadly one of the best scenes for that was cut for time). It just didn't have much effect on Dean and in general got Sam bitched at several times for being a pain in the ass, bossy, and/or over-bearing/mother henning. Also, before he died, Bobby a few times reached out to Dean and offered Dean a sympathetic ear, even if it was in his Bobby way... "If you ever decide that that's (Dean's saying he was "fine") a bunch of crap, you know where to find me. Right here." (This was mostly in episode 1 and 2 before they had to go on the road, but did crop up elsewhere before Bobby went to the somewhat "suck it up" route.)

What I more got from that arc - although it might not have been what I was supposed to get - was that Dean is very uncomfortable with accepting help from others. It almost seemed that the offers of help more annoyed him and/or depressed Dean even more, and eventually everyone gave up on that tactic and went back to the one that seems to work more with Dean - although weirdly it shouldn't - which is the suck it up approach and/or (in the case of Frank) the fake it until you make it approach.

*Although I think it could've been addressed more in season 8 if the theme had been explored more after Dean got back from Purgatory. For me, the set-up was there.

And they didn't mention HIS Hell time (as a parallel to Sam's Hell Time) except for the "stone one" speech. Then they dropped it like a hot potato as the season wrapped, leaving Jensen to say that Purgatory must have sobered him up. I'm glad to see they addressed his functional alcoholism in S11.

I agree that this was a ball that shouldn't have been dropped.

SueB: I love Mark P so I enjoyed him on the screen. The resolution was Cas Ex Machina but I was kinda just relieved it was over.

J2: I think Jared liked the arc because of his fondness for the emotional bits. But I suspect he was also glad when it wrapped.

I agree. I thought that Jared played this beautifully and with a lot of heart, so I agree that he seemed to be into it. I, too, have been watching some of the reruns on TNT, and every time I do, I see some other nuance of how Jared plays Sam with his hallucinations. The latest example was with "The Mentalists." I really payed attention this time to that scene in the diner when Dean first finds Sam, and what I at first viewing thought was Sam being snotty and ignoring Dean, I this time was convinced was Sam thinking at first that Dean was a hallucination. Jared's look of subtle surprise when the waiter actually addresses Dean was a really nice bit of acting. I enjoyed the arc, but was also glad when it was done. It was the right time for it to wrap up, and I enjoyed the build up to the crescendo, too. I found the whole Sam trying not to let Lucifer - and in a way his own dark side - in, but in the end having to in order for him to be a more effective hunter thing, and it being his ultimate undoing - damned if he does and damned if he doesn't - fascinating.

F. SUB-ARC: We kill monsters (Amy then Emma)

SueB: Hated with the heat of a 1000 suns. Seriously contrived gaak that made needless angst.

Most of the haaaate for me came in the forgetting what was learned here. I appreciated that this unnecessary angst arc in this season was mostly short - as compared to say all of the nonsense angst of Sam not looking for Dean and "see how much better a 'brother' Benny is" angst misdirect that we got in season 8 and the "how could you take away my agency?" angst that we got in season 9, both of which seemed to last All. Season. Long. - and that here actual progress was made. Sam and Dean actually talked about this head on rather than misdirecting and talking around it. They made progress, and their relationship was better for it. ("The Mentalists") At least until season 8 when all of that canon and progress was thrown out the window for purposes of Aaaaangst. Then came most of the haaaaaate on my end, but I blame that mostly on season 8.

3) Characters:

SueB: Some EXCELLENT characters introduced this year: Frank, Kevin, Charlie, that realtor lady with the too-white smile (she was over the top but I laughed a lot), and many other one-episode characters. Nice call-back characters: Jo, Bobby, Meg, and Jody.

I agree. I loved the season 7 characters so much. Even some of the villainous ones. For example, I found that budding serial killer in "Repo Man" both fascinating and horrifying. And I loved that realtor lady, too - and her assistant. I could entirely see his side on why he wanted to kill her. One of my favorite comedic scenes of the season: (paraphrase) Barista: ...Why don't you eat me? Assistant: You're lucky I'm in a hurry, or I would. Barista (sarcastically): Sooo lucky. Me: Hee! And of course Leviathan Chet - I loved all things Leviathan Chet.

Even some of the background characters were amusing: Ranger Rick and disgruntled waiter guy from "How to Win Friends....", spoon-bending guy and affirmation waiter dude from "The Mentalists," Elliot Ness' assistant from "Time After Time...," That couple - especially the wife - that Dean tied up in "Meet the New Boss" (how the wife was somewhat disappointed that nothing happened at first after Bobby did the spell - hee, and then her reaction to Death), and Slurpee guy they got blood from in that later season 7 episode "ow."

Highlights:

SueB: Meet The New Boss, Slash Fiction, Time After Time, The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo, Reading Is Fundamental

Lowlights:

SueB: The Girl Next Door (due to Amy plot)*, Shut Up, Dr Phil, Season 7, Time for a Wedding

I mostly agree with all of these** and would add...

to Highlights for me: Plucky Pennywhistle's..., Hello Cruel World (loved this one), The Mentalists

to Lowlights for me: Defending Your Life and Party on Garth - Mr. Fizzles: I didn't know whether to be horrified or somewhat amused. I think horrified won out.

* I agree, because the episode itself was well done, and I liked the Sam backstory stuff. Also I always like Collin Ford. But yeah Amy: bleah.

** The Girl... was good for me, but not a favorite compared to the others I added to my highlights list above.

[mertensia]

Yeah except for Defending Your Life I love season 7. Yes even the Becky one because I do find her to be a believable superfan, who loves Sam the character not the actual person.

[SueB]

AwesomeO ... I agree with you that Dean was VERY reluctant to get actual help. And Sam DID try. I was quoting the point where Sam was even willing to let the alcoholism slide just so long as Dean wouldn't die. I actually thought that was pretty good of Sam. You can't "fix" other people, and sometimes you have to know what targets to go after. Sam, IMO, went after the right target -- Dean's lack of 'give a shit' when it came to whether he lived or died. Dean was actively suicidal or courting death, he just was sloppy.

And I agree, if he's unwilling to talk about it, 'suck it up' is what Dean would probably respond to. And NONE of these people are trained psychologists. I actually thought Ness was spot-on to point out that what they do matters and they are lucky to get that release from Hunting.

I just wish they had him articulate in S7 why he was able to finally focus. Even if it was "At LAST, we have a decent plan besides "hide and seek". I think in S8, he acknowledged the "purity" of the morally clean hunt but that was in Purgatory and everywhere else is messy. OTOH, I think FINALLY in S10, he acknowledged his happy place is helping people. And I think that ULTIMATELY, we've gotten some resolution to his S7 ennui.

[Aeryn13]

 

And I agree, if he's unwilling to talk about it, 'suck it up' is what Dean would probably respond to. And NONE of these people are trained psychologists.

 

Bobby always acted like a whiny crybaby when HE was in distress and didn`t get a coddling response. And I have not seen any better from any other character. It is only ever Dean that at first people ask him to share when he is reluctant to and then demean him for being weak and whiny when they don`t like his honest answers for once. In his place, I wouldn`t be emotionally honest with anyone ever. What good does it to, only to get belittled for later on? 

 

People like Ness have no context for where Dean is coming from. Just like the fanboys at the convention who imparted their great wisdom to Dean that "the Winchesters have such a great and cool life and each other and not, gosh golly, the horrible existance of boring, normal jobs". Cry moar, noobs. Which was the same point someone evil like Zachariah was making.

 

At least if other characters got told such nonsense, I could wave it off but apparently we are supposed to agree with that when it comes to Dean? The best I can say for Season 7 is that, compared to Season 6, I found it largely inoffensive but those "suck it up" speeches just rankled.

 

That is why I found Benny to be a breath of fresh air in Season 8 and loved his interaction with Dean. Soemone friendly and supportive without being babying and cloying, that was fantastic to see.  

[7kstar]

I still haven't rewatched season 7 or 8.  It was a time that I barely watched at times.  I did get interested in 8 due to the Benny storyline, but Sam's made me want to quit again.

 

I think there were some really great ideas, but they didn't do the idea any justice to connecting the dots.  I admit my hatred of Sam started unravel my love for the show.  I remember thinking in season 6 what is this nonsense about Sam vs Dean because I loved both characters.  But my tolerance for the boys fighting was going down the drain.

 

I couldn't understand Dean's reactions and Sam's concern about his brother I just didn't see anymore.  I was sick of the suck it up speeches Dean got.  I was excited about "Defending your Life" and even felt that Jo character had really grown.  But the issues they gave to Dean fell flat.  The idea came way short.  So I got more frustrated and not even the humor could draw me back in. 

 

I did enjoy Frank, Charlie and the first ep where Dean and Sam are stuck in the hospital.  The villains started out scary and fun, but I got bored with them fast.  The dick jokes were lame for me and tiresome.

 

I finally joined why is Dean's character so badly written.  It wasn't a story I wanted for him.  Plus I knew the pay off would be ignored once again.  To be honest it's not about which character has gotten the better love.  It's the poor manner in which they handled it and it just made me want to quit the show. 

 

I almost did.  Maybe when the drama in my life is better, I'll see if I can see the things you like, but right now I don't think it's a good idea. 

 

At least this time the brothers are working together, sort of...

 

I think Gamble is good at spinning ideas, but she needed someone that balanced her ideas.  I don't think she had the support she needed to be successful.  Plus she got blamed for not being the "God" writer before her.  Some of it was unfair because I saw major flaws in seasons 1-5.  I wonder if she had done season 8.  If we would still hate it?  Even though I hate parts of season 8, I also enjoy parts...but that is my feeling for every season.  :)

[Aeryn13]

 

I finally joined why is Dean's character so badly written.  It wasn't a story I wanted for him.

 

Since I don`t consider it a "story" for anybody, I`m with you there. Jensen could have flipped through the Season 7 scripts and ask if he could take off the entire Season and nothing would have changed. Which, to be fair, goes for Jared as well. The cartoonish, Sam-faboy-esque rendition of Lucifer hallucinations was at least something genre-esque but that doesn`t mean I enjoyed it. Nor had it any bearing on the story overall. The brothers Winchesters just did not need to be in Season 7 to drive the plot forward or have anything to do with it.

 

The focus of the story was mainly the villians. And after having high hopes for the Leviathans, they were a huge letdown. Simliar to the fallen angels on Earth later on, it was just so painfully boring.   

[AwesomO4000]

That is why I found Benny to be a breath of fresh air in Season 8 and loved his interaction with Dean. Soemone friendly and supportive without being babying and cloying, that was fantastic to see.  

 

Benny would have been much better for me if he hadn't been mostly used as a plot device. He was written as a Dean fanboy, which was fine, but he also had the additional aspect of being "perfect" (see * below for clarification) in that he could just "be" with Dean. They could just live in the moment, with no moral question of what was right or wrong, or what they had to do. Their main mission was clear - find the way out - and the only disagreement they had was the side mission to find Castiel, which Dean carried all of the cards for, because Benny couldn't do anything without Dean, so basically what Dean said had to go. That uncomplicated dynamic made their relationship clear cut with no messy moral questions. Everyone else was clearly bad and trying to kill them.

 

Then to up the fanboy "perfect" aspect of Benny for the purposes of angst, they regressed Sam way back to season 4 (maybe, even in season 4 he wasn't this bad), doing things that made little sense (to me, but I don't think I was alone) and that they never adequately explained in my opinion (and also made a joke out of it - which: not cool). This was mostly just to up the emotional misdirect of "oh noes, the brothers are fighting. Will they ever get back together?" Then of course Benny also had to break all of the original canon of the show to that point just to be yet another Dean's instincts are always right despite all evidence to the contrary plot point.

 

For me, a much more interesting arc would have been if Sam was actually more like Sam ( i.e. he had at least tried to find Dean and had not abandoned Kevin) and Benny had been a little less "perfect." Then we could've seen some interesting questions about Dean's psyche and explored much more Dean's conflict concerning how he felt about purgatory and why the "simplicity" of it was appealing for him. An actual conflict / question. The way it was written, of course Dean should prefer Benny. I loved Sam as a character and I hated Sam and preferred Benny in the first half of season 8 (even as I saw how manipulative the plot was being with the "see how great Benny is!!!1!! He fights his monster instincts - all for Dean!!!). So ultimately for me, Dean was more reduced to the pretty girl in a love triangle - the prize to be won between the supportive potential new boyfriend (Benny) and the familiar, once supportive, but now moody and borderline abusive old boyfriend (Sam). I hated that. I wanted to know how Dean felt and why. But there was no real conflict in the way they set it up that first half of the season on who Dean should've picked (Benny), so instead of Dean emotional growth, all I got out of that was "why the hell is Dean not sticking up for himself and instead just accepting all of this emotional abuse? Well, if Dean wants to be a wishy-washy doormat, why should I care if he's unhappy?" (Answer: I didn't anymore and stopped watching the show for a while.)

 

* Rather than a more realistically flawed fanboy/fangirl situation like say Becky was written. Becky has many flaws and is written so that you can see that her expectations and devotion are unrealistic and mostly on the surface. It is obvious that she doesn't know what she's talking about. She is someone Sam is supposed to be wary of and we realize that she is delusional and would never work in real life. I'm not saying that Benny should've been written the same way. I'm saying that he, too, was not really going to be part of the real world situation, and in my opinion, he should've been written accordingly... i.e. something that maybe couldn't be because it maybe couldn't fit in the real world rather than something that couldn't be because mean brother Sam gave Dean an ultimatum like some trashy soap opera Dad telling his daughter she can't see that boy from "across the tracks." The first one is interesting to me, the second is mostly annoying.

[Aeryn13]

I really hated Becky. After he first appearance, I pretty much wanted her to stay gone. 

 

 

I wanted to know how Dean felt and why. But there was no real conflict in the way they set it up that first half of the season on who Dean should've picked (Benny)

 

I think the writer`s intent was to have ultimately Dean turn out to be wrong. After all, Sam may have dissed him in the first half of the Season  but they hammered on the voice-mail of doom and left out Sam`s shitty behaviour in the situation completely. And then after the trials, he had to meekly devolve back into bunker maid and cheerleader but even that wasn`t done to Sam`s satisfaction because he declared his wish for suicide in the Finale on the grounds of Dean not cheerleading enough and having other friends. 

 

Just because my reaction to it was "fuck you, Sam" doesn`t mean it is what they wanted out of that scene. They clearly did not. 

 

Unfortunately, in hindsight, Benny appears to have been a placeholder character. The first half of Season 8 seems completely disjointed from the rest. And they didn`t appear to even have been interested to explore Purgatory in relation to Dean right from the start. It was two episodes and then the story shifted to a mystery around Cas. IMO they wanted to explore Sam and Amelia but the reception of the couple and the "great romance" the writers had touted pre-Season was poor.

 

In the end Purgatory was lke Demon!Dean. Or rather the reverse. A quickshot that the writers never had the slightest interest in. In that vein, both very little stories had their own side characters in Benny and Cole, obviously quite opposite in presentation to some degree.

 

Even right now, Amara might be the main villain of the Season and Dean has the connection to her but the writers seem very adverse to write something for it. Their instinctual push appears to be to write stories for Sam. If this was a one-character show, they would probably all feel much happier. 

[7kstar]

I don't think the fans were supposed to like Benny so much.  The actor helped in that area.

 

I would have rather seen Sam tried to hunt for Dean and Kevin.  I would have rather seen Sam trying to like Benny but wondering if there was a dark side that his brother had been too traumatized to see.  Dean exploring why he found Purgatory such a relief and almost had a longing to go back to it.

 

One strong fanficition writer is exploring Sam trying to understand his brother's changed direction.  Things that use to cut him to the core no longer mattered.  This might have been interesting to see on screen.

 

I almost wonder if Carver really knew why fans liked this show. His attempt to show Sam as mature failed.  The love interest failed.  Instead he seemed to bring out all the worst things the writers had done to Sam over the years with their weird unexplained comments.  Some go back as far as season 1 Sam.  To much of this has been rehashed over and over.  The only solution I see is to rewrite the history and move on. 

 

I find fault with every season, but there are moments I love.  I'm hoping that I will find more I enjoy moving forward.  The mess of the past hasn't been addressed and perhaps in fairness, it is better to leave the plot holes and move on.  I blame the writing and directing more than the acting. 

 

Also a fun soap story line can be entertaining, but these are sloppy soap story lines and I resent that.

[AwesomO4000]

I think the writer`s intent was to have ultimately Dean turn out to be wrong.

.

 

I moved most of my response over to the "Bitterness" thread to be safe. Short version: If the intent was to have Dean ultimately turn out to be wrong, they did a crappy job from the beginning. Over on TWoP I called Benny being good within the first couple of episodes, and an episode or two after that, I called that he would sacrifice himself to save Sam. To me, it was pretty straightforward that Dean was going to be right about Benny. He's too good at reading people for it to have believably gone any other way.

 

And to me, if Sam was supposed to be right, they wouldn't have made a huge joke out of his position from the very first episode of the season. To me, that was a sign that they thought Sam was wrong to do what he did.

[mertensia]

I will defend Eliott Ness's viewpoint and speech: in his era there was no such thing as PTSD. There was shell-shock but people often derided sufferers as weak or trying to game the system to get back home.

[AwesomO4000]

I find fault with every season, but there are moments I love.  I'm hoping that I will find more I enjoy moving forward.  The mess of the past hasn't been addressed and perhaps in fairness, it is better to leave the plot holes and move on.

 

This is a good attitude to have. It's one that I should probably adopt more often.

[shang yiet]

I didn't like either Benny the sparkly vampire or bitchy Amelia. They were both taking up too much space storywise without much payoff. Benny and his angst got on my nerves fast. There was no reason for him to hang around once he got out. He was just using Dean as his ride out of purgatory so naturally, it paid for him to be nice to Dean!BellaSwan for one year. How hard could it be? Don't try to sell it as a love that lasted a thousand years, writers..

 

As for Dean, at least, he got to bond with guest stars time after time and let out his feelings which was more than what Sam got.