OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:57 PM, tennisgurl said:

I swear, every time I'm on these boards talking about any other show, and people start complaining about the slow pace, and how the show is spending too much time building up characters, relationships, or atmosphere, and the plot isn't moving fast enough, I just want to be like "You like super breakneck speed plots that go by so quickly that characters and relationships and any kind of mood or tone is left by the side of the road? Have I got the show for you!"*

What show am I not watching that I should be watching?  I have never seen that complaint.

[InsertWordHere]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Everyone! Everyone! Dreams DO come true! After much fan demanding, Netflix is giving us a Sense8 movie to tie up the lose ends! Jump on that bandwagon now!!!! It's a great show, now with an actual ending! 

I came here as soon as I heard! Yes, @tennisgurl, the wishing star worked this time!

[tennisgurl]

23 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

What show am I not watching that I should be watching?  I have never seen that complaint.

I've mostly seen it in American Gods this season, but its popped up a few other times. I think American Gods is awesome and I love how much time it takes on its characters and its themes, but some people were complaining that the plot was super slow and the show was boring because of it.

@InsertWordHere We all held our hands and shared magic and threw our pennies into the fountain in NYC and we believed in magic and fairies and SOMEHOW it actually worked!

[KingOfHearts]

Gilmore Girls and OUAT have little in common outside of being an ensemble drama in a small New England town. GG oftentimes has different plot threads going at once, featuring specific characters in each one. Yet, it never falls into the "centric" formula. There's enough interaction between the characters to keep everybody functioning in the same world. One thing I like about it is you'll get odd pairings. Characters you rarely see in the same room playing off each other in entertaining ways. That's sorely lacking on OUAT.

OUAT has a vast multiverse, yet it feels even smaller than GG. There's less going on. There's so little, in fact, that putting the characters in different boxes feels unnecessary. Why does Rumpbelle need to be their own thing? Why does Zelena need to live alone with the baby in her farmhouse? It's just so black and white.

[KingOfHearts]

I've been watching Death Note in anticipation for the Netflix movie coming out. Ryuuk reminds me so much of Clippy!Rumple that I can't get his image out of my head. I feel like Belle would find a death note in Rumple's basement one day.

Edited July 9, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

Live action Aladdin has been cast

[Spartan Girl]

So happy they haven't whitewashed Aladdin and Jasmine.

The guy playing Al is a smokin' hot fox! Hotter than the OUAT one anyway.

[Rumsy4]

The Season 2 trailers dropped for Westworld and Stranger Things. They promise well!

[KingOfHearts]

Season 2 of Stranger Things looks like it'll be fringing more on the horror movie genre. There seems to be more fright than just sci-fi. I loved the use of Michael Jackson's Thriller in the trailer.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I loved the use of Michael Jackson's Thriller in the trailer.

Yeah. Great choice! 

The Westworld trailer had "I've gotto be me" by Sammy Davis Jr.. 

[KingOfHearts]

Apparently in Descendants, Dopey's son is dating the Evil Queen's daughter. That raises some interesting characters. There are female dwarves and they can have children? Dopey conceiving a child is weird to me, but I guess it's better than hatching from a giant egg. I got OUAT vibes from the fact his son is dating the daughter of the woman who tried to kill his dad. Granted, Evie is redeemed and not like her mother. There seems to be more self-awareness.

OUAT pretty much scarred me for life, lol. I can't seem to watch anything without tilting my head and asking questions. Once bitten, twice shy. (Did I just make a pun?)

[paulvdb]

Doug in Descendants is not a dwarf, so his mother is probably also not a dwarf. I don't remember if we ever saw Dopey in the movie or if the identity of Doug's mother was mentioned.

[Camera One]

I haven't read Stephen King's "The Dark Tower", but I was reading LA Times' review of the movie.  It just reminded me how derivative and similar a lot of sci fi/fantasy stories:

Quote

J.R.R. Tolkien was reportedly a key influence on King’s novels, which may explain why the movie’s version of the Dark Tower looks like an Eye of Sauron with self-esteem issues. The inferiority complex is understandable: We’re informed at the outset, after all, that the tower can be destroyed by “the mind of a child.” To that end, the Man in Black and his masked minions have been abducting kids left and right, then using a sinister brain-drain machine to chip away at the Dark Tower from afar.

This reminds me of Peter Pan abducting children based on a prophesy.  Or The Black Fairy's plan to find a certain baby.  And then there's also the people from another world coming to our world.  

It seems like most of the reviews are negative... some headlines:

"Intergalactic war of good and evil a tedious affair"

'Dark Tower' takes out most of what was good from Stephen King's best-selling series, leaving in most of what wasn't.

If the movie is bad, I wonder how this will affect the upcoming TV series by someone who worked on "The Walking Dead".

[Camera One]

I just caught up on the casting for the live action "Aladdin" and saw the actors they chose for Aladdin and Jasmine.  They look like they could fit the roles.

Curse this show since it has drastically reduced my tolerance for both Aladdin and Jasmine.   Hopefully, the new movie will erase A&E's versions from my mind.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

I will always be bitter at this show for making Aladdin and Jasmine, one of my favorite Disney couples, so lame and unlikable. Normally I would question the purpose of remaking a movie that was already really good to begin with, but I need something to wash the taste of Once out of my mouth.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm volunteering at a music and arts camp this week, and I was highly amused to see one of the teen boy volunteers wearing a t-shirt with a silhouette of Flynn/Eugene from Tangled and the words "here comes the smolder." I guess Tangled still has its fans, but it was surprising to see it in a teen boy. They really missed the boat with their take on Rapunzel in this series.

[Camera One]

Don't worry, this show might last years, so Season 10 might be when we get Rapunzel.

There are no missed boats on this show.... the boats on the lake go 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round... 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Don't worry, this show might last years, so Season 10 might be when we get Rapunzel.

There are no missed boats on this show.... the boats on the lake go 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round, 'round and 'round... 

I think that is wheels on the bus.

How about...

Row, row, row your boat,

through the magic bean

memories, memories, memories, memories

They don't mean a thing.

[Writing Wrongs]

I was re-watching some Charmed episodes. As crappy as some of their physical sets may have looked at times (demon caves), I still prefer them to a lot of the CG green screen stuff Once relies on. That's why I like Storybrooke or the actual forest on the Enchanted Forest.

[KingOfHearts]

I'd really like to see a version of Giselle from Enchanted on Once Upon a Time. The stereotypical, cheery Disney princess put into a more cynical situation. I was very disappointed with Princess Emma, because she was nothing more than a ditzy wimp. She was even worse than idealistic Giselle, and even more two-dimensional, if that could be possible. It doesn't have to be Giselle herself, but the same sort of archetype.

Spoiler

Perhaps Disney!Snow?

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'd really like to see a version of Giselle from Enchanted on Once Upon a Time. 

I just read your post and then a song from the movie came up on my shuffled playlist, LOL.

[Camera One]

Sound the alarm.  Adam just mentioned "An American Tail" movies on Twitter.  Is someone doing homework for a possible future cul de sac?  Hopefully, the characters are out of bounds since it's not made by Disney.  I guess Fievel (Henry) and his family (well, Regina) being apart could warrant a "Somewhere Out There".

Edited August 14, 2017 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Sound the alarm.  Adam just mentioned "An American Tail" movies on Twitter.  Is someone doing homework for a possible future cul de sac?  Hopefully, the characters are out of bounds since it's not made by Disney.  I guess Fievel (Henry) and his family (well, Regina) being apart could warrant a "Somewhere Out There".

Or they need a replacement for GusGus.

Edited August 15, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[KingOfHearts]

I've been rewatching Once Upon a Time in Wonderland. The current state of OUAT just doesn't hold a candle to it. 

I can't help but draw comparisons between Ana and Regina. Both had mothers pushing them to marry nobility, were manipulated by Cora, fell in love with a commoner archetype, used magic to usurp a throne, had their royal husbands killed, tyrannized a kingdom, antagonized a female bandit, had a one-sided romance with a genie at some point in time, and dressed in lavish outfits adorned with their signature colors. The biggest difference, though, is Ana actually has a conscience. She justified her sins by saying she'd go back in time and prevent them from ever happening. She legitimately wanted to salvage her relationship with Will, and it wasn't all about her. She felt real guilt for choosing the crown over him. If it weren't for Cora's deception, she would have gone back to him much sooner.

While Regina and Ana each are very much concerned with appearances, Ana's reasoning is more deeply connected to the story. She desired to be posh because she had come from a poorer lifestyle, barely getting by. There was this one scene at the ball where she mimicking what the wealthy guests were saying. There was a distinct change in her voice depending on who she spoke to. If it was Jafar or someone she wanted to intimidate, she'd put on the pompous act and address others as "darling". But with Will, she sounded much more natural. Her facial expressions were very dynamic as well. (Honestly, her over-the-top-ness cracked me up sometimes, but it was enjoyable.) Regina, though, is dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. She was raised to be the queen Cora wanted... and that was about it. She flaunts herself for entertainment, even when it's inappropriate or nonsensical. Sure, Ana is kind of a cartoon, but there's a good explanation for it. Regina is just fun for the writers to write.

Then there was the redemption arc. Ana's body count is very low. We never actually saw her murder anyone on screen. (It was implied she murdered the Red King.) There were no mass murders or rape. She was even slightly appalled when Jafar killed her subjects right in front of her. That made her redemption a much smaller pill to swallow. One of the worst things she did was hold the White Rabbit's family hostage and threaten to kill them. But, I think her plot to go back in time and undo everything was a much better justification than Regina's quest for vengeance. In one scene, a group of peasants tied her up and left her for dead. While Regina did get faced with her victims a few times, Ana's encounter changed her. It made her want to be a better queen and save Wonderland before herself. After she made the decision to help the heroes, she wasn't welcomed with open arms. Alice and co were allowed to be skeptical and even hostile to her. It wasn't framed as if they were being unfair. Ana had to actually prove herself.

Even Ana's magic is interesting. (OUATIW is surprisingly really good about worldbuilding.) The portrayal of her abilities is a reflection of her pretending to be more than she is. If you'll notice, she only uses simple spells such as flinging people back or conjuring a small dagger. She never does anything complex like teleportation or shapeshifting.  

[Camera One]

I've never watched "Games of Thrones" but encountered this review for the latest episode and noticed some similarities to Once problems (Beware spoilers, though I tried to cut some out):

Quote

A criticism commonly levied at recent episodes of Game of Thrones is that characters suddenly appear to have developed the ability to teleport from one side of Westeros to the other with no more than a crinkling of their noses.

[Character] was in [Location A]. Then [Location B]. Then all of a sudden he was north of the [Location C] on some hairbrained scheme to...   Whereas previous seasons would have dwelled on the minutiae of trudging from place to place, mining rich seams of character development along the way, this one has more world-ending matters to deal with than spending five episodes watching [Character] and chums amble up a snowy hill. So it doesn’t bother. And while I reject the “teleportation” criticism – they don’t tend to show characters on the toilet either, because that too would be irrelevant to the plot – it is indicative of a deeper issue with the current series: that it’s become blindingly obvious seven episodes is simply not enough. The producers’ decision to shorten the episode count from 10 did make each episode a thrilling set piece. The problem is that they’ve been trying to cram so much into each, little things like “logic” and “character” have burst out of the seams.

Take this week’s episode, which alone gave us a panoply of huge, plot-altering events. We got a couple of fairly high-profile deaths... Massive stuff. Game-changing, some of it. It was another exciting, bravura hour of telly. But did any of these events land with the weight they deserved? Or did they all whizz past at such a relentless clip that none really had time to register? And did any of the characters do or say anything remotely plausible for the entire episode? No they did not. 

The first five minutes of Beyond the Wall consisted almost entirely of characters telling each other exactly what they thought of them in great granite slabs of exposition, as opposed to giving relationships space to percolate slowly and organically as the show has done so adeptly in the past. It felt clunky and forced. Then the action started, and everything got a bit silly.... the characters felt like they were little more than window-dressing as the narrative groaned and twisted to... [get the plot to a certain place].

Characters used to act, and plot used to unfurl, in ways that felt real; that’s what gave this geeky genre series about dragons and magic its global crossover appeal. Now? .. Characters aren’t so much pieces being moved on a board than the board is being moved under them, credulity be damned. In a show full of dragons and magic, it’s strange that the humans are starting to feel fake.

To the series’ credit, if you are going to paper over gulfs in logic, the best way to do it is with explosions, zombie bears and flaming swords. Every episode is a tantalising prospect as the story gallops towards a conclusion like a windmilling drunkard, and none have disappointed so far. The pace hasn’t let up all season. It’s physically impossible to dislike a programme this relentlessly, air-punchingly entertaining.

So it’s still the best show on TV, and I will have an inappropriately passionate argument with anyone who claims otherwise. It’s just a shame it’s also now one of the daftest.

Granted, "Once" had some of these problems since very early on.  But it seems to boil down to plot and action over characters.

[Camera One]

This is another "Games of Thrones "article (again, spoilers) I thought was good, about why fans of shows (uh, us) obsess over seemingly pointless things like travel time.

Quote

So we come around again to the bigger question: How much does it matter? Why care about something as mundane and boring as distances and travel times in a world where there’s magic and giant wolves and red priestesses and.....? So what if Game of Thrones sacrifices plausibility for efficiency?

One reason people obsess about this sort of thing is that the realities of travel time and distances and grueling cross-country treks fit into the dubiously useful category of “relatability.” These characters’ lives are already unimaginably distant from our own, with their magical swords and fire-breathing dragons and majestic winter coats. If what you care about is putting yourself in their shoes, those shoes are harder to imagine when they can bend space and time itself.

There’s an even bigger issue with scrapping the commonplace logic that it takes a long time to get to faraway places: Without firm rules about time and geography, suddenly everything becomes possible. The pressures that create obstacles for our beloved and reviled characters no longer feel all that hard to overcome... Instead, we’re left with … you know, the battle is cool! The dragons are cool! But it doesn’t feel all that astonishing or impressive when... apparently flying across the continent is just a thing someone can do without any further explanation.

This is the real problem with abandoning incontrovertible rules for space and time, even in a made-up universe like the one in Game of Thrones. Once your audience notices the fictional world is fickle, the seams of the whole thing become visible. Once you’ve seen behind the curtain of how the story works, you look at each event in the narrative for what it really is (a decision made to push the story forward) rather than what you’d like it to be (the story as a story, the end).

Game of Thrones has been much stronger at building a wholly inhabited world in other ways, especially in terms of character. I have a sense of who... is, who she was at the beginning of the series, and how her character has changed in concert with the events that’ve taken place in her life. I know... and I know the things that drive her. When Game of Thrones tells me that... don’t trust one another, I believe that the situation is a real problem for them both. 

Of course, GOT’s bonkers timeline doesn’t need to interrupt anyone’s enjoyment of the series. It’s certainly more fun to watch dragons swoop in .... But if it does bother you, there’s a good reason. You’re being pulled out of an otherwise immersive experience; you can see the wheels turning inside the narrative mechanism; you can recognize that someone adjusted the story to prioritize quickness over plodding realism.

The time jumps on Game of Thrones are like a slightly too obvious trick in an otherwise impressive magic show. If you can see how that one trick works, does it ruin the rest of the performance? Can you still love the magic even after you see the artifice? A “yes” answer makes sense, but a “no” answer is reasonable, too. And if your answer boils down to “I don’t care, just gimme some dragons!” then I’m happy for you, too. After all, it was a pretty great battle.

On "Once" these problems are compounded a hundred fold, and by Season 6 (heck, way before Season 6), it became very difficult to enjoy the story for what it actually is, since all we're seeing are the random puppet strings.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I think part of the problems with GoT is that the screenwriters no longer have the source material to work with. I know book purists were never too happy with the writing on the Show, but it seems like the issues have gotten worse now. I haven't read the books/watched the series, but am rather tempted to before the final season comes out. The only thing keeping me back is the fact that no one knows when GRRM is going to complete the series. 

[daxx]

I tried to read it, I just couldn't get into it. And that was 100 pages in I dropped it.

[Camera One]

20 minutes ago, daxx said:

I tried to read it, I just couldn't get into it. And that was 100 pages in I dropped it.

I haven't read it either.  I hear all sorts of things about beloved characters dying and I don't see why I would want to get attached to someone only to see them die.  After all, we can wait until Henry writes HIS version of the story in Season 57 of "Once Upon a Time".

[Shanna Marie]

I did find myself thinking about OUAT during last night's GOT episode. Not only was there the "everything's in walking distance now" problem, but it was also the case of Idiot Plotting, where the plot requires all the characters to be idiots in order for it to work, and events happening just to set up the plot, even though the actions and decisions were not only out of character for the characters, but also unlikely for most people. Though they did manage to have conversations among characters, which is a plus over OUAT.

What a lot of TV writers don't seem to get about fantasy is that you can't get away with "hey, you can believe in dragons, but you can't believe that people can make a month-long journey in an afternoon?" thing. People have only so much suspension of disbelief, and if you're going to make people accept dragons and magic, then everything else has to be super grounded in reality. Once you establish something as a standard, you have to stick with it. If it takes however long to make a journey in season one, it should take about that long later in the series unless something has changed to alter the journey.

[Camera One]

I read that the director of that Games of Thrones episode responded... do people think this response was akin to A&E or different?  (spoilers from the episode)

Quote

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy. We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

The whole "They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly" seems like he's dismissing them as focusing on something that's not important.  But there was honesty in saying they were "fudging" the timeline intentionally?

I found this comment a bit strange:

Quote

“It’s cool that the show is so important to so many people that it’s being scrutinized so thoroughly,” he continued. “If the show was struggling, I’d be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it’s OK to have people with those concerns."

If the show is doing well, people's concerns don't matter as much?  Why?  Because they'd watch anyway?  

[jhlipton]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I ... encountered this review for the latest episode

Quote

It’s physically impossible to dislike a programme this relentlessly, air-punchingly entertaining.

 

It definitely and most certainly is possible to dislike.  I do.

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I did find myself thinking about OUAT during last night's GOT episode. Not only was there the "everything's in walking distance now" problem, but it was also the case of Idiot Plotting

Only last night?  The whole battle scene (last week?) was a case of Idiot Plotting.

[Camera One]

I really don't get how professional writers can get away with this stuff.  I'm thinking back to the ending of the musical episode, when everyone looked shocked and just stood there as the clock chimed and the Black Fairy's Curse started swirling around (seconds after everyone was prancing around singing about their "happy beginnings" with lyrics that their life will start anew).  How can the writers make the characters act *that* dumb?  That example has now reached the Gold Star Standard for Idiot Plotting for me.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

The whole "They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly" seems like he's dismissing them as focusing on something that's not important. 

This sounds exactly like Adam's "timeline police" tag on twitter. Dudes--you guys are writers in a genre that's always had obsessive fans. If you can't deal with criticism, then at least don't read it and then respond dismissively. Thanks for bringing us the GoT drama, @Camera One. I've been interested in the screen writing process ever since LOST. Until then, I assumed that the original story writer (where that applied) and the director(s) were the Big Guys. I really do believe that the way Damon and Carlton interacted with fans got a lot of people like me interested in the writer's room, and more aware of the hands pulling the strings.

Writers like A&E (and apparently the GoT writers) want to go back to a time-period where the fans are less able to critic and criticize the finished product instantly, but also crave the drama of attention.  

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

If the show is doing well, people's concerns don't matter as much?  Why?  Because they'd watch anyway?  

Yup. It's like blockbuster movies. No matter the drivel, people are going to show up in droves. In this case, GoT has book fans watching, as well as people who are in too deep to quit, even if they feel the writing is not as good now (sounds familiar?? ;-)). 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Amerilla]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

“We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy. We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story’s momentum carries over some of that stuff.”

Camera One , yes, this is exactly the type of crap that makes me want wrap A&E's knuckles with a ruler  -- using the logical questions of fans as a weapon to block valid criticism of crappy plotting or dis-continuity.

The point of the criticism of D&D is that the whole sequence wasn't a "plausible" impossibility. It was visually impressive but ham-fisted plotting. Period. I'd actually have more respect if they had just said: "yup, the timing was more than a little hazy, but ZOMBIE DRAGON!!!"  They make it so much worse when they double-down on on this whole "sheesh-these-fans-really-lack-whimsy" bullsh!t. Very disrespectful.

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

They make it so much worse when they double-down on on this whole "sheesh-these-fans-really-lack-whimsy" bullsh!t. Very disrespectful.

Yeah, I get very annoyed when writers try to make it sound like perfectly valid criticism is irrational. It's on a par with "we couldn't do 42 minutes of kissing." Nobody asked for 42 minutes of kissing. We just felt that if they did an entire episode about Emma's fears about having another love die, then when Emma let herself love, only to see that love's heart on the verge of being crushed while she was frozen and helpless, then maybe they should have addressed that and devoted more to it than a few seconds of kissing and a heart shoved back in -- after an inexplicable walk across town.

The "you can believe in dragons the size of a 747 but not a supersonic raven" is a false equivalence. We can believe in dragons the size of a 747 because that's been established as part of the show's universe. We know where the dragons fit into their history, we know what people think about the dragons, and we've seen what the dragons can do. If we don't believe in the supersonic raven, that's not on us, it's on the writers for not making us believe in supersonic ravens. They didn't build those into the world. We haven't seen messages delivered at supersonic speed. No one's gone to send a raven and been told "don't use that one -- it's for dire emergencies only." Jon didn't say to have them send the "special" raven.

It's similar to a situation that involves very mild season 7 spoilers for Once (from the ComicCon panel):

Spoiler

A&E criticized Colin's comment about where Henry was getting gasoline for his motorcycle while traveling through pre-industrial fairy tale worlds with that same sort of thing -- "you can believe in traveling between worlds using magic beans but can't believe he could find fuel for his motorcycle." But it's not the same thing at all. They've shown us how magic beans work. But there's been nothing to set up a motorcycle from our world being able to work without gasoline, nothing to set up there being fuel sources in the other worlds. It's on them to show how that works, not on us to believe it because magic. They need to establish that there's a spell on the motorcycle that allows it to run without gas, or that Henry has a magic flask that turns water into gasoline, etc.

[Amerilla]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

If we don't believe in the supersonic raven, that's not on us, it's on the writers for not making us believe in supersonic ravens.

2

+1000

A real weakness of this season is a variation on the short-arc problem we know and loathe for OUAT. By shortening the final two seasons by 3 episodes (even if some of the remaining episodes are super-sized) they end up having to throw aside time, space and simple logic to cram a complex story into a tighter space, and they lose a lot of detail and nuance in the race to get all the characters where they need to be for the various set pieces. (I'm looking at you, Neverland and the Underworld.) You also have the problem with inorganically making characters instant DestinedTrueLoveSoulMates (*cough* Outlaw Queen *cough*).

You could have solved all the time and space problems in GoT this past week by having Dany and the Dragons simply fly the Magnificent 7 north of the Wall in the first place, dropping them off with the intent of picking them up once they'd had time to catch a wight. You could have had almost all the same interactions and scenes we saw in the episode, but it would have saved Gendry some sore leg muscles and we wouldn't have had to think about supersonic ravens. (Plus, you would have had a moment for people who aren't Dany to react to the experience of flying a Giant Friggin' Dragon. Tormund would have rocked that sort of scene.) But the writers decided it was better to drop plot anvils about how Dany and Jon are destined to have a million emo babies together.    

[Writing Wrongs]

I've been listening to this guy's reviews of Lost season by season and the things he points out, you could apply to Once. 

Things thrown in just because they seem cool, but really have no plan for.

Irrelevant flashbacks as the seasons go on.

When things don't make sense, the writers say "The island did it", like "magic did it". 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

When things don't make sense, the writers say "The island did it", like "magic did it". 

I thought Lost could get away with "the island did it", at least up until S5. It didn't happen too frequently. The big difference between Lost and OUAT is that OUAT flat-out explains its rules then proceeds to break them. The former keeps the inner-workings shrouded in mystery. It was during S6 when the writers starting putting out "origin stories" that it really all fell apart. Magic became way too commonplace, with even the most skeptical characters embracing it. With more explanations came more questions. The science element faded into the background, which really stole half of the show's main theme away.

Quote

Irrelevant flashbacks as the seasons go on.

So much this. I didn't care about Locke's time at the convent, or Sun's love affair, or how Jack got his tattoos. 

[Camera One]

"Once Upon a Time" stole a lot of good things from "Lost", but didn't learn from its mistakes and didn't follow-through on its good points.  

On "Lost", by Season 2, the Writers were obviously having trouble coming up with new flashback backstories and they were letting characters back-slip or dirtying them up in flashbacks to create conflict or fodder for character "development".  By the end of Season 3, they knew something had to be done, and they acted on it through flashfowards.  This exact same thing happened to "Once" by Season 2, yet season after season, they continued to hit the exact same time period in the flashbacks ad nauseum (Bandit Snow era, Belle working for Rumple era, etc.), all the way to Season 6, when we got retcon after retcon which damaged characters further (eg. Baelfire being a vengeful corrupted kid, Snowing deciding not to go after Young Emma when they had the chance, Belle knowing that Rumple kidnapped babies, Hook murdering David's father, etc.)   

Despite the shenanigans, "Lost" ultimately worked because of the characters.  Even into Season 4, they continued to give emotional subplots to supporting characters like Sayid, Sun/Jin, Hurley, etc, and continued to use the background characters in significant ways once in a while (eg. Rose, Danielle, etc.).  On "Once", after 2A, none of the supporting Enchanted Forest folk like Granny, Grumpy, Blue, Gepetto or Archie ever got to explore their own stories.  Even a supposed main character like David would only get one centric per season.  There was no attempt to "broaden" the world of other main characters as individuals (Belle never got a proper episode with her father without it being all about Rumple).  "Lost" also continued to have different combinations of characters experiencing meaningful conversations during their walks in the woods, at least until mid-Season 5.  Meanwhile, "Once" literally stopped writing any conversation longer than 45 seconds for a key relationship like Emma and Snow by Episode 2.2.  

When a character is fascinating, it sometimes doesn't matter as much to me if it doesn't fit within the mythology.  An example would be Eko.  They had to rewrite when the actor refused to continue, so his role in the grand scheme was unclear.  But I still enjoyed watching him in rewatch because his character story was moving and I was interested by him.  Meanwhile, the guest characters they brought onto "Once" got such flimsy development despite their potential.  Look at Aurora, for example.  What did we end up learning about her?  Practically nothing.  Even Robin Hood, who was on the show for how long?  There was zero depth or exploration of him as an actual person.

In terms of world-building, even "Lost"'s flawed attempts were miles ahead of "Once", where the Writers couldn't be bothered to check old scripts they wrote themselves, where no magical rules were thought through (eg. Wish Realm is real.  Or not.  It's like a novel on a shelf... the book is real but not the story... huh?), and every freak'in episode, magical solutions are thrown out willy-nilly to finish an episode (eg. Everyone take a sip of the sleeping potion!  Let's hold hands to ward off fate!  Stab the mirror with the magical object and people trapped in Mirror World can escape!).  

For me, where "Lost" faltered by mid-Season 5 and in Season 6 is what kept "Once" a show with mediocre writing and squandered potential.  "Lost" stopped caring about characters and treating them like individuals... they became moving chess-pieces and supporting characters used to sprout narration.  The explanation for the island came out of nowhere and was unconvincingly connected to what we experienced before, just like "Once"'s explanations for the Dark Curse, for Emma's Savior-ness, for The Dark One and for The Author/Storybook were pathetic and reliant on some brand new entity they pulled out of thin air (The Black Fairy, for example).

Edited August 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

how Jack got his tattoos

That is the worst episode of the series (some people may claim The End was the worst--haha). Even the creators admit to it. I believe the consensus for  the best episode (including by Darlton) is The Constant. It's certainly my favorite!

I was one of the few (silent majority?) who were mostly satisfied with how LOST ended. I do think Season 6 was clunky and plot-heavy, and the flash-sideways as a whole was pointless. Bringing back Charles Widmore and random newbie red-shirts in the final season was a mistake as well. It's almost as though A&E learned all their lessons in bad plotting and storytelling from LOST's final season. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

That is the worst episode of the series (some people may claim The End was the worst--haha). Even the creators admit to it. I believe the consensus for  the best episode (including by Darlton) is The Constant. It's certainly my favorite!

My least favorite was Fire + Water. I can't even get through it. Stranger in a Strange Land was boring and pointless, but Fire + Water totally character assassinated Charlie. It was the equivalent of The Cricket Game for Regina or Welcome to Storybrooke for Snow.

Quote

I was one of the few (silent majority?) who were mostly satisfied with how LOST ended. I do think Season 6 was clunky and plot-heavy, and the flash-sideways as a whole was pointless. Bringing back Charles Widmore and random newbie red-shirts in the final season was a mistake as well. It's almost as though A&E learned all their lessons in bad plotting and storytelling from LOST's final season. 

As much as I loathe the sixth season of Lost, I didn't hate the finale either. I enjoyed seeing all the old characters again.

[Writing Wrongs]

35 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

how Jack got his tattoos

Wasn't he in Phuket? I wonder if he knew August? LOL

[Camera One]

I'm a total contrarian and I didn't mind "Stranger in a Strange Land" that much.  I sort of liked the weird current-island storyline with the creepy "Sheriff" and the brainwashed Cindy Air Stewardess. 

I did hate "Fire + Water", though.  It was one of many examples in Season 2 where they reverted a character back to a character trait they had before their main Season 1 centric.  It showed lack of originality that they felt the need to tell the same addiction story again.  

I too didn't mind the series finale of "Lost".  I actually liked the flashsideways throughout Season 6 more than the actual island stuff.  I seriously would have preferred that approach to Season 6 of "Once Upon a Time".  Who cares if it never happened... I'd rather see the characters play out scenarios that never happened, than watching irritating and insulting ret-cons that destroy characters and the rewatch factor.  There were SO many fun "What-if" scenarios that we could have seen with Emma, Snow, Charming, etc., and it would have been a fun way to bring back more guest characters and I'm not talking about August or the lame-o Wish Realm.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

As much as I loathe the sixth season of Lost, I didn't hate the finale either. I enjoyed seeing all the old characters again.

I was fine with it until the next morning when I realized, from listening to the radio, that 50% of the audience hadn't actually comprehended what happened in the finale.

GoT is having major pacing and plotting problems right now.  They are making the world too small both geographically and by consolidating most of the characters to a couple of storyline.  Its jarring compared to previous seasons where no one interacted or ever got news of anyone else  Frankly a lot would be fixed just by having a few more episodes and a rule that traversing the continent requires a wait in that action until the next episode.

GoT is still much, much, much better than OUAT for the simple reason that their problem is that they are cramming too many cool things and character interactions into an episode and its lessening the impact.  OUAT just skipped all that stuff and nothing ever really happened between finales.

GoT may have surpassed OUAT in requiring characters to do stupid and out of character things to advance plot so cool episodes can happen though.

Edited August 22, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Rumsy4]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

GoT may have surpassed OUAT in requiring characters to do stupid and out of character things to advance plot so cool episodes can happen though.

I doubt that's possible considering the accumulated number of stupid and OOC things OUAT characters have done for plot reasons. :-p

Edited August 23, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I doubt that's possible considering the accumulated number of stupid and OOC things OUAT characters have done for plot reasons. :-p

GOT may have topped them lately. To put it into OUAT terms, it would be like if during the war against Regina, Elsa had come to Snow from Arendelle to warn them about the ice trolls that were threatening Arendelle and might eventually make their way to the Enchanted Forest, and they got the bright idea that if they went and captured one of these ice trolls (that move in hordes and are nearly impossible to kill), they could take it to Regina and convince her to forget about her vengeance and the war and commit her armies to help fight the ice trolls, so Charming and some of the others went on a near-suicide mission that led to their enemy getting one of their most valuable assets when Charming and his buddies had to be rescued. And all so they could set up a really cool action sequence, hand one of their assets over to the enemy for more coolness, and then get Regina, Elsa, and Snow together in one scene.

Granted, bringing an "ice troll" (or whatever) to Regina with the belief that surely Regina would realize the threat and drop everything to help does sound like something Snow would do, but she hasn't really done anything quite on that level of big-picture stupidity yet.

[Camera One]

Using that scenario, on "Once Upon a Time", Elsa would come to Snow from Arendelle.  Snow would hand Elsa the baby and ask for advice whether she should die lying down or sitting in a chair.  Meanwhile, Belle comes to the castle and says it's immoral to fight against the ice troll babies.  At the same time, Charming is on a mission but he falls for the Smevil Queen Apple Stall and he goes into a Sleeping Curse.  Luckily, Henry trips and falls and gives him a True Love's Kiss, which creates enough heat to melt the Ice Trolls in Arendelle.  However, this also melts the glaciers blocking the opening of a volcano which erupts, spreading Darkness over the lands controlled by the Russian God of the Underworld and the Maleficent of Japan.

[ParadoxLost]

@Shanna Marie You forgot the part where they are suddenly able to fart magic beans to cross between realms.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

You forgot the part where they are suddenly able to fart magic beans to cross between realms.

I think we're already there. How many "the very last magic bean, for realsies this time" have we come across so far? And everything is in walking distance. You can walk from kingdom to kingdom and back in an afternoon -- until you need a pirate ship to get to the adjacent kingdom that you were able to walk to not long ago.