OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The actor who played Cyrus was on last nights episode as a villain of the week, a super powerful reality warping alien who falls I love with Supergirl/Kara. He was a lot of fun, while also being sinister and creepy at times. He also makes some Aladdin references, which I'm choosing to believe was a shout out to his role in Wonderland!

I don't watch the show, but I watched the opening on demand just to see this, and wow, he was having way too much fun with that role. When I get a chance, I'll have to watch the whole episode. You know, if they're going to disregard Wonderland continuity entirely and have a recast Jafar, they could have cast him as Aladdin. Yeah, the writing is terrible, but there's a lot that personal charm and intensity can add, and he might have been able to bring the character to life in spite of the script.

14 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I would KILL to see Hook doing something like this. I can't remember the last time they let him be clever, sassy or joyful. 

I just realized that we never have seen Hook in a bar fight, have we? It's funny that I watched this scene on Wonderland and found myself thinking that Cyrus was being so very Hook-like there, but it's something Hook has never done, either seriously or as a ruse. And this is a character who has anger as one of his key traits. An angry young man who's basically a walking ball of rage and pain and who has more than a little fondness for drink, and we've never seen him in a bar fight, even in flashbacks? I guess the closest we got was when he went to his father's Ye Olde Tavern and was confronting the bouncer before Regina took him out.

[Curio]

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I just realized that we never have seen Hook in a bar fight, have we? [...] I guess the closest we got was when he went to his father's Ye Olde Tavern and was confronting the bouncer before Regina took him out.

Yeah, the only instances we've had of Hook being in a "bar fight" are your examples and also when he punched the guy who was bothering Milah in that one Rumple flashback. Also, Hook may or may not have been drunk when he punched Will, but that wasn't in a bar. But no, we've never seen Hook and Emma enter a bar or tavern, had someone recognize Hook from his past, and start a full-on bar brawl with flying glasses, jumping over tables, and splashing waves of beer. A scene where Hook gets caught cheating at dice to help distract the bartender while Emma investigates a MacGuffin behind the counter practically writes itself...so naturally...TS;TW would just make Regina magically wave her hand and grab the MacGuffin offscreen instead.

Even Tangled had a more rowdy bar fight than this show has ever had. A PG-rated cartoon.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

I'm at this BTVS episode that consists entirely of odd character pairings. (Willow/Anya, Buffy/Tara, Xander/Spike) I would live to see some really random pairings on OUAT, because they tend to bring out new facets of the characters. With alternative perspectives, we can better understand how they feel about things. Even Star Trek would take two random characters and leave them stranded on a planet for a while. They would need to learn to work together to escape. Some of the most entertaining OUAT moments in recent memory involved pairings such as Hook/Zelena or Emma/Milah. You'd think on a show with match-ups being one of the biggest selling points, we'd get more variety in the character interactions.

[ParadoxLost]

@KingOfHearts With our luck they would go for Star Trek Voyager and Hook and Regina would get spelled to turn into salamanders and then we would have to cope with their forever bond over the tadpoles in the lake.  At least on Voyager the Paris/Janeway salamander young were left on a planet far far away. 

I'm watching Magicians.  They are doing half Fillory (kind of an EF type place) and half "real" world although with magic.  Last season was kind of unrelentingly grim to the point that I had basically given up.  This season the dark "real" world got darker but they ae spending time in Fillory and even though Fillory also has that thread of grim and dark story telling running through it, they have gotten a sense of humor,  

And whoever they hired has a pretty good sense of humor.  Its funny and clever and full of pop culture references.

Its what OUAT should be doing.  I could let a lot of things go if they would just pull a more stunts like Little Bo Beep being some sort of mafia boss extorting money from villagers.  That was the only redeeming idea in the entire David/Anna plot because it was so unexpected.

[Spartan Girl]

We got another sneak peek of Beauty and the Beast, this time showing Emma Watson singing the famous "Belle" number:

Short clip, but it's already WAY more cheerful than OUAT. And I already like this Belle better than the OUAT version.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Short clip, but it's already WAY more cheerful than OUAT. And I already like this Belle better than the OUAT version.

OUAT has absolutely ruined Belle.  I'm surprised Disney let them get away with it.  

[KAOS Agent]

I just amused that they've kept with the tradition of having Belle live in France while having a decidedly non French accent. Original Belle was American, Once's Belle is Australian and this one is British. Why even bother with the bonjours and monsieurs when the response from the villagers is not even remotely French?

[Camera One]

It seems to be a straight-up adaptation of the musical, so they probably just kept most of the songs as-is.  I guess they could say she was an immigrant to this village.  Hopefully, the rest of the movie is better than that clip.

[Spartan Girl]

17 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I just amused that they've kept with the tradition of having Belle live in France while having a decidedly non French accent. Original Belle was American, Once's Belle is Australian and this one is British. Why even bother with the bonjours and monsieurs when the response from the villagers is not even remotely French?

I really don't get what the big deal about the lack of French accents is. Hardly anybody, with the exception of Lumiere and a few other minor characters, had French accents in the original cartoon.

And it's not like it's the first movie to do that kind of thing. Ever After took place in France and there wasn't a single French-sounding character in the whole movie. Just saying...

[Shanna Marie]

I've developed a habit of listening to BBC radio dramas online before I go to sleep, and the way they handle books where everyone is French (like Madame Bovary or Les Miserables) is that everyone just has an English accent, with more Cockney style accents for lower classes and posh accents for the upper classes. I guess they're just assuming everything's being translated into English, so there's no need to pretend to have a French accent.

Lumiere being the only one to have a French accent while in France isn't unique to that movie. In Frozen, everyone had an American accent in Not!Norway other than the shop owner, who had the cartoony Nordic accent.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I remember trying to watch Da Vinci's Demons - and I just couldn't take it that all those Italians had British accents.  :)

[pezgirl7]

The last couple of Three Musketeers movies had British and Americans as French people. It doesn't really bother me, although D'Artagnan having an American accent in the last film, while most everyone else was British, was a bit annoying. That movie was completely ridiculous in other ways though. The BATB accents haven't bothered me at all from watching the previews. I'm more concerned about the CGI, and hoping that Emma Watson's singing isn't too autotuned. Totally hyped for the Gaston song and dance!

[Shanna Marie]

As I get to the end of my Wonderland rewatch, I have to say that this show is far better executed than the mother show. It’s not perfect, but they did a lot of things right in the writing that the original gets wrong. And I really want it on DVD because I think it might be a good “happy place” series to watch when I need a mood boost.

I think that one thing that helps is the smaller cast. That meant that it was more of an ensemble, where everyone got equal time. It never really felt like there were character “centric” episodes the way there are on the original show. Even when the flashbacks for an episode focused on one character’s past, the episode was still about the overall story, and the flashbacks were about how that character fit into the story. But I’d still consider this part of the “execution” score, since the choice of what characters to use is part of executing a story.

The real unfair advantage is the one-and-done nature of the show. It didn’t have to worry about sustaining these characters, their relationships, and the plot over more than 13 episodes. That allowed it to all be tied up in a neat bow at the end, and it didn’t get the chance to get repetitive. It might have been very different if they’d had to find a way to let Jafar hang around and still be sassy and powerful but not be a villain. Or if Will and Ana had broken up and got back together again over and over, as she kept backsliding and choosing wealth over love before getting caught and Will taking her back again. Or if Cyrus had kept putting his relationship with Alice on hold because he was so worried about what was going on with Jafar and felt bad because Jafar’s fate was partially his fault, as it was his mother who taught Jafar magic in the first place.

On the other hand, the original show could have functioned more like an anthology, telling one story an arc/season and then truly moving on. Maybe keep one or two central ongoing characters, but then move on from one story’s villains and guest characters to go tell another story. Season one was Snow White, then maybe season two could have been Sleeping Beauty, etc.

But the big thing the mother show could learn from Wonderland was pacing and structure. It was a bit longer than the average OUAT arc, but I don’t feel like it had the same sense of sagging in the middle and general aimlessness that we get on the original show. The typical Once arc tends to be 1-2 episodes of the main characters becoming aware that there’s a threat. Then they learn about the threat and spend the rest of the arc talking about needing to do something about it but not really accomplishing much. Meanwhile, the villain delays actually doing anything until the end of the arc because of Reasons, usually just doing a lot of talking and gloating. The villain finally carries out the plan in the next to last episode, and they defeat the villain in the final episode, usually with some random thing that just appeared.

They do something interesting with the conflict structure on Wonderland in making the heroes’ goals for the first half of the season not actually be about the villain. Jafar has the same plan from the start: cast the spell that will allow him to break the rules of magic. But the good guys don’t know this until past the halfway point of the season, so they aren’t spending all that time running around talking about how they need to stop him. All they know is that he wants Alice to use her wishes so he can have Cyrus in thrall to himself, and they do enough to establish that a genie is a very valuable thing for them not to look like idiots for not looking for any other reason. For the good guys, part one of the series, episodes 1-8, is about freeing Cyrus and reuniting him with Alice. This still puts them in opposition to Jafar, since he needs Cyrus in order to carry out his scheme. Alice’s resistance gives Jafar a good reason not to just carry out his plan right away, but he already has everything else he needs set up before the series even begins. He’s trapped Amara in the staff, he’s got the other two genies, he’s got his father held prisoner, he has Cyrus, and he later gets Cyrus’s bottle. All he needs is for Alice to make her wishes.

They avoid that sagging middle entirely by letting the heroes achieve their goal. Cyrus escapes in episode 5. Alice learns that he’s escaped in episode 7, so episode 8 is about her getting to the meeting point and them being reunited. That’s also when we get a twist, as the Red Queen reveals her feelings about Will and changes sides. There’s a slight interlude in episode 9, which is about finding Will and integrating Ana into the Cyrus and Alice team (while also letting Alice and Cyrus have a nice romantic moment for bonding after their separation), and at the end of that episode, they learn about the other two genies — Cyrus’s brothers — and Jafar’s real plan. The heroes then have a new goal — stopping Jafar and saving Cyrus's brothers — that drives them to the end of the series.

Considering that the usual Once arc is 11-12 episodes, this is something they should be able to pull off. I think maybe they were kind of trying that with the 5B arc, where it started with them having the goal of saving Hook and then it turned into stopping Hades, but it was still rather muddled, since Hook wasn’t really saved until the end, and they were trying to also redeem Hades, but then also fighting him, or whatever. I think most of the problem on the original show is they try to save everything for the finale — the big reunion, the emotional stuff, and defeating the villain — and that leaves the middle kind of aimless. They also have that problem of the characters being slaves to the plot and not acting like real people. You notice that once they were reunited, Cyrus and Alice didn’t split up. They stuck together and let Ana go off on her own. Even when Cyrus tried to leave Alice behind at the Well, she followed him. She didn’t run off to have a solo adventure with Will or Ana five minutes after getting Cyrus back, after she’d spent half the season trying to find him and free him.

[Camera One]

I'm doing boring paperwork today, so I borrowed "Cinderella II" from the library and was watching it.  

I've always avoided these straight-to-video sequels since I assumed they were aimed at 7-year-olds and the animation would be really bad.  The visuals weren't as horrible as I thought, and 2 of the 3 stories (the movie was broken up into three distinct stories) were alright.  It made me think of how "Once" could easily take any of the major Disney movies and built on them in a more complex way.  The first story was about Cinderella adjusting to life in the palace and deciding to make changes.  I think they could really have explored Charming's transition from shepherd to king.  Leopold was portrayed as a good king, but I'm sure there could have been room for Snow to build her own ruling style.  The second story was about the mice and I was always bored by them being chased by the cat, so it was really tedious.  But it was about Jacques wishing he were human and the Fairy Godmother granted him in the wish, but he learns that he could help more as a mouse.  I wonder if the third story was ripped off in "The Other Shoe".  In this one, Anastasia and a baker falls in love, and Cinderella helps give her a makeover and tries to change her demeanor and attitude.  I thought they did a pretty bad job of redeeming Anastasia and the love-at-first-sight was shallow since we know nothing about the baker, but this was a children's cartoon and I would have expected better of "Once", which didn't do much better with Clorinda.  

I did find one line of dialogue interesting.  Cinderella talks to a crying Anastasia, and this is the exchange:

ANASTASIA: It's always been easy for you.

CINDERELLA: That's not how I remember it.

Can you imagine if Snow responded similarly on "Once"?  Who knew a cartoon could actually acknowledge the reality of a situation moreso than a drama aimed at adults.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I just finished "Cinderella III".  It ran too long, but it was way more enjoyable than "Cinderella II".  The Evil Stepmother had the potential to be a half season baddie on "Once".  Her evil scheme to go back in time and change the ending of the story was more fun than some of "Once"'s escapades in the past.  They actually made Cinderella very active at trying to thwart the stepmother's plans.  The redemption of Anastasia here was also handled better than in "Cinderella II'.  I also preferred them having the characters sing rather than have pop songs in the background (in the second one).  The weird thing is this third movie seems to ignore Anastasia's developments in the second movie, yet the end-credits does show Anastasia with the Baker.  I suppose she could have met him in this alternate timeline as well.

[Spartan Girl]

I watched The Little Mermaid last night. While OUAT may have butchered Ariel's story, they at least captured her fearless naïveté quite well. I always loved how she yelled "I'm not afraid of you or your guns!" That was so Ariel.

Anyway, I know a lot of people diss the movie for Ariel supposedly giving up her identity for a guy. But let's not forget she wanted to be human BEFORE she ever even saw the prince. My interpretation is that she never really felt right as a mermaid and that by becoming human, she wasn't "giving up" her identity, but creating her own, being who she felt like she was all along. Think about what transgender or gay people have to go through: some of them probably have conservative relatives that accuse them of turning their back on their family and religion. Heck, some people get that crap just by dating anyone that's different or by just being different, period.

I mean, giving Ursula her voice was stupid. But what I liked is that being mute didn't make her passive. She was still the same spunky, curious, outgoing person she always was, and she managed to convey that quite well with her expressiveness. I really hope Disney retains that in their upcoming live action version.

Maybe they can extend the whole "three days" timeline though, just so that the romance isn't too fast.

[Mathius]

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Anyway, I know a lot of people diss the movie for Ariel supposedly giving up her identity for a guy. But let's not forget she wanted to be human BEFORE she ever even saw the prince. My interpretation is that she never really felt right as a mermaid and that by becoming human, she wasn't "giving up" her identity, but creating her own, being who she felt like she was all along. Think about what transgender or gay people have to go through: some of them probably have conservative relatives that accuse them of turning their back on their family and religion. Heck, some people get that crap just by dating anyone that's different or by just being different, period.

I mean, giving Ursula her voice was stupid. But what I liked is that being mute didn't make her passive. She was still the same spunky, curious, outgoing person she always was, and she managed to convey that quite well with her expressiveness. I really hope Disney retains that in their upcoming live action version.

THANK YOU.  This is why I get pissed at all the people willfully misinterpreting the story and Ariel's character as anti-feminist (the implication being that Ariel should have just listened to her bigoted father, a literal patriarch...and that isn't anti-feminist?)  It's the same deal with the people who say Disney's Beauty & the Beast is Stockholm Syndrome...Disney's Belle isn't OUAT's Belle, she didn't give the Beast ANY respect or show of love based around how Beast could act or how she thinks there might be good in him.  It wasn't until Beast made his own changes and actively began to treat her well that she in turn befriended and fell in love with him.  I don't think it was Stockholm Syndrome since during that time Belle pretty much ceased being a prisoner, to the point where when she needed to leave to go save her father, Beast let her go free without any hesitation whatsoever. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I just watched the Johnny Depp "Alice in Wonderland" for the first time.  I avoided it since it looked too cartoonish and ostentatious, but it was a pretty good adaptation.  The visuals were very nice, with the exception of the overdone makeup for The White Queen.  It took me a long time to warm up to Alice, though.  The actress's makeup was too heavily pale at the beginning plus she had very little charisma.  She did grow on me as the movie wore on.  The story hit most of the major highlights of the book while telling a coherent story with character development for Alice, which was good.  It had a similar atmosphere as the "Once" spinoff, so I wonder if they were partly inspired by it.  At the beginning, I thought they might make a dream like The Wizard of Oz and have the various people in Victorian England also play parts in Wonderland (like that rude potential mother-in-law as the Queen of Hearts).

I borrowed the sequel as well, so I might watch that tomorrow while I'm doing paperwork.

[KingOfHearts]

There's a fair amount of people who didn't like Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland, citing that it wasn't a faithful adaptation. I, however, read both the books and thought it matched the tone of the books better than other films. While the books aren't dark (The Queen of Hearts doesn't actually decapitate anyone), the residents of Wonderland are still out to get Alice. Most of them are rude to her and think she's dumb for not agreeing with their absurd logic. The movie keeps Wonderland twisted, albeit giving Alice a host of friends she never had in the source material. I thought the visuals were especially accurate to the themes of the books, even if the story and characters were rather weak. 

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I borrowed the sequel as well, so I might watch that tomorrow while I'm doing paperwork.

I don't have the same praise for the movie sequel...

Edited February 26, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I didn't know a lot of people didn't like it.  I mean, it's not a movie I liked enough to rewatch ever again, but I agree the tone of the book was there... it did feel like Wonderland.  

After watching "Emerald City", I can imagine an alternate "Game of Thrones"-esque adaptation where there was an epic war between The Queen of Hearts and The White Queen.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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After watching "Emerald City", I can imagine an alternate "Game of Thrones"-esque adaptation where there was an epic war between The Queen of Hearts and The White Queen.

Alice in Wonderland did a much better job at darkening the source material than Emerald City ever did its own. EC was just clumsy.

[Mathius]

16 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't have the same praise for the movie sequel...

The sequel literally went full Regina on the Red Queen.  "The White Queen was such a brat to her and the Hatter was a jerk to her too, they must apologize and she must be forgiven all her crimes against humanity!"

[KingOfHearts]

I don't hate Dawn as much as I used to. Yeah, she's an annoying pain and too young, but her concept is just too darn intriguing. I've actually felt sorry for her because the people around her act like she doesn't belong. An entire episode was built around her finding out the truth, and it was glorious angst. There was so much payoff, just like Birth on OUAT. While I was watching it, I realized the "we are both" thing was going on. All the characters were conflicted over their fake memories of Dawn and the truth. They didn't have full dual memories per se, but their fake ones still held weight. If OUAT S2 had David Nolan coming to grips with Prince Charming, it would have been similar. Not quite the same, but similar. Dawn's dilemma is a big deal, but it's something A&E would just gloss over. We would get a 20 second scene of her crying, then we'd move on to some fight with Glory.

Speaking of Glory, I'm not sure what I think of her. She's fun as a psychotic prima donna god, but she's not that original. The OUAT writers may have drawn inspiration from her when they wrote Zelena or The Evil Queen. That's the kind of vibe I get. She's terrifying because she's overpowered, unlike the Mayor, who was creepy from his personality alone. Glory is pretty two-dimensional, but still way ahead of Adam. She's serviceable as the season's Big Bad, and frankly entertaining, but she fits the OUAT villain role a little too well.

I'm happy with the Buffy/Riley breakup. I never liked their relationship. I did a little reading, and I found this on Wikipedia:

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When asked why they chose to have Riley leave Sunnydale, Joss Whedon says he tried to give Buffy a healthy relationship, but "people didn't want it. They did some great work together. But at the same time, when they were happy, it made people crazy."[2] Marti Noxon adds, "Sunnydale romance just rarely goes well. Buffy with a boyfriend is not as interesting as Buffy in some kind of romantic strife. Riley, by his nature, was such a good and constant character that we were at risk of things getting a little dull."

Sounds a little like A&E, no? Healthy relationships = boring. I see where they're coming from, but it wasn't the lack of romantic strife that made it dull. In my opinion, Riley didn't give much to work with beyond the Initiative. By contrast, Hook and Emma are always interesting even when they're not angsty. They compliment each other well and they're both complex. They deal with their own personal issues, but their relationship helps them deal with them. Riley had as much a place in Buffy's life as Robin did in Regina's. He was just her moral support. Captain Swan has always had a brighter, more exciting future. That doesn't come from strife, but rather intense chemistry and passion. Riley and Buffy just didn't have that.

[Camera One]

Which episode of "Buffy" are you at?  

The whole "healthy relationships = boring" is very common among writers.  Riley and Hook are very different though.  Hook had his own redemptive journey to navigate, whereas Riley as he was originally conceived was more well-adjusted.  The attempts to give him angst just didn't work.  Riley is also a lot more likeable than Robin because Robin seemed to exist to make excuses for Regina.  

I didn't enjoy Glory and didn't find her funny.  I didn't hate Dawn as much either, but at the same time, she is one of the reasons why I would never rewatch "Buffy".  

[KingOfHearts]

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Which episode of "Buffy" are you at?  

Just finished "Blood Ties" and began watching "Crush". 

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Riley is also a lot more likeable than Robin because Robin seemed to exist to make excuses for Regina.  

Riley has more substance than Robin, that's for sure. The similarities are in terms of being a prop for another character. Toward the end of the relationship, he was more of a boy toy for Buffy, and he knew it. Everyone but Buffy knew it. The writers didn't bother to give him anything else to do, outside of vampire brothels and the Initiative. He didn't connect with any of the other characters.

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I didn't enjoy Glory and didn't find her funny. 

I have a soft spot for scenery chewing villains, but I find her to be mediocre. She's batshit, and that's about it. Her insanity stems from a contrivance, rather than real characterization. I prefer Spike, and I just adore him.

As a side note, I like how he's having to earn Buffy's love and respect. It's not just handed to him. Angel and Riley were too instant for me. The slow burn is one of the reasons I enjoyed Captain Swan so much, so I'm glad to see it here.

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I just remembered this was Season 5.  They really destroyed Riley's character for me in Season 5.  He wasn't the guy from Season 4... just a pathetic shell of a version.  That was something else I really didn't enjoy watching.  If they wanted to write the end of a relationship between two people who didn't fit each other, fine.  But the way they contrived a storyline to create conflict was lame.

S4 Riley was better, I agree.

Edited February 26, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Riley has more substance than Robin, that's for sure. The similarities are in terms of being a prop for another character. Toward the end of the relationship, he was more of a boy toy for Buffy, and he knew it.

I just remembered this was Season 5.  They really destroyed Riley's character for me in Season 5.  He wasn't the guy from Season 4... just a pathetic shell of a version.  That was something else I really didn't enjoy watching.  If they wanted to write the end of a relationship between two people who didn't fit each other, fine.  But the way they contrived a storyline to create conflict was lame.

[KAOS Agent]

The problem on TV shows is not that healthy relationships are boring, it's that they pair a "good" character with one who's really messed up. It usually feels off because on TV the messed up character will remain messed up because of the nature of his/her life. Buffy is the Slayer just as Emma is the Saviour. That's not going to change. Buffy's early life was fairly normal, so she's more balanced than Emma in terms of emotional development and having relationships in general, but she still needs someone as messed up as her because otherwise she's dragging a nice, good guy down into hell with her. Characters like Spike, Hook, Angel are already a part of that world and understand what it means to be in a relationship with Emma/Buffy. Nice normal guys can't. Thus, we get seasons of characters who should be in a healthy relationship, but the nice guy is ignored or sidelined or complaining that he is not an equal partner in the relationship. If paired with someone who inhabits the same crazy world, the pairing works, but usually the partner is the "bad boy" and everyone is messed up, so you have constant angst from both characters hangups and it appears less healthy. 

[Shanna Marie]

I finished my rewatch of Wonderland, and I'm a little sad that it's over. I need this show on DVD. I kind of wish there were more to it, but then again, that finale was pretty perfect. It's one of the best series finales I can think of, though it helped that it was always a limited run, so the whole show was designed to end. Still, it did everything you want to see in an ending. Jafar got a very just desserts ending, being defeated by his own overreach rather than the good guys doing anything to him, and he was left in a way that seemed fitting as a fate if we never saw him again, but also leaving him available to use again in the future. The TLK with Will and Ana was so lovely and so earned, with her responding to his description of love even while she was enthralled, and then him forcing his way past the barrier to kiss her. There was the bittersweet touch of Amara's sacrifice, which was fitting because it would have been wrong for Cyrus to get to keep the results of the wrong he did from the beginning (though it is interesting that Cyrus paid a much higher price and went through so much more suffering as a direct and indirect result of a wrong thing he did to save someone's life than Regina has suffered as a consequence of mass murder and casting the Dark Curse). We had the lovely wedding scene (though I'm not crazy about Cyrus's "Victorian gentleman" look -- he looks far better with the wavy hair than with his hair slicked down). I'm normally not a big fan of the "and then they had kids, so you know they're happy" kind of epilogue, but that one was nice, with Alice telling the story to her daughter. Since it was in a book, maybe that means Alice became a children's author. The perfect little finishing touch was the White Rabbit watching Alice, Cyrus, and their daughter having a tea party, and you can imagine that the rabbit will soon be taking the daughter on her own adventures in Wonderland, only this time the girl's parents will believe her (and ask her how everyone is doing), so things will have come full circle.

17 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The problem on TV shows is not that healthy relationships are boring, it's that they pair a "good" character with one who's really messed up. It usually feels off because on TV the messed up character will remain messed up because of the nature of his/her life. Buffy is the Slayer just as Emma is the Saviour. That's not going to change. Buffy's early life was fairly normal, so she's more balanced than Emma in terms of emotional development and having relationships in general, but she still needs someone as messed up as her because otherwise she's dragging a nice, good guy down into hell with her.

I don't know if I entirely agree. I think it comes back to the fact that TV writers usually fail at writing good characters. They think these people are boring, so they write boring characters. A nice, good guy could be the rock for the messed-up character and help pull her up. But TV writers tend to go the Riley route, where the guy feels emasculated and threatened, or he gets sidelined. A nice guy would be good for Emma -- and to a large extent, that's the way Hook has functioned in this relationship. The only time his own darkness became a factor was in season 5. Most of the time, he functions as the nice, stable guy who supports her, and even his dark past just works to give him the experience to help her through whatever she's going through. In S6, he's really just being the nice, stable, reliable guy for everyone -- Emma, Belle, Liam, David.

[Dianthus]

I came across a theory in a series of analyses, years ago, that really resonated with me, re: BtVS. Basically it posits that the other characters were more or less free-range aspects of Buffy. Kinda like Inside Out or Herman's Head. We saw this at the end of s4, when she and the Scoobies do the joining spell to defeat Adam. In that vein, I think Riley represents 'normal' for Buffy. She mentions a desire to be normal (or "just a girl') multiple times over the course of the show. But the Slayer doesn't get normal, so naturally it doesn't work out, even tho' she really wants it to. OTOH, Spike represents Buffy's Inner Darkness/Slayerness. This very much comes into play in s6, IMO.

One of my favorite eps from s5 is Intervention.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

One of my favorite eps from s5 is Intervention.

I just finished that episode, and I wasn't sure if it was satisfying or gross. Spike basically raped Buffy through Buffybot, and knowing that, Buffy still kissed him as a thank you for keeping information from Glory. I thought Buffybot was amusing, but also provided some perspective much like April. (The other robot.) I'm glad Spike and Buffy sort of made up, because "Everybody Hates Spike" was getting annoying. On one hand, Spike deserves all the disdain in the world. On the other, it got to be petty in some respects. Whenever something went wrong, Buffy went to beat him up, regardless of whether or not it was his fault. The Scoobies would keep him alive, but hated him, which didn't make sense to me. 

The episode reminded me of "Good Form" from OUAT, where Hook does something to help a family member, and Emma rewards him with a kiss. That was very much like Buffy/Spike, but with dirty flirtation instead of robot rape. Hook and Spike both have an unhinged determination that brought them out of a quest for vengeance. They both like to run around in leather coats and make quips, too. Thankfully, the Spike torture porn was much more brief than Hook's. 

About The Body... it's probably the best episode of S5 so far. Oh, not because of its unique artistic look on death, or Buffy/Dawn character development, or the conclusion to a popular side character. No, it's awesome because of Anya. Give her praise. She is my spirit animal. In other shows, the "blunt" character is usually robotic or desperate to find their own humanity. (I'm looking at you, Seven of Nine and Data.) But Anya is neither. She's awkward, but her innocent honesty is like Cordelia on steroids. I just love her so much. She doesn't need a tragic backstory to be interesting. She just has to be herself. Her speech to Willow was perfect in every way. I don't want to see Anya get a bunch of big centrics, I just want her to always be there to state the obvious. She keeps the show grounded like nobody's business.

Quote

Riley had as much a place in Buffy's life as Robin did in Regina's. He was just her moral support. 

I said this about Riley, but Tara fits the description better with Willow. She has little personality and she's just there to placate Willow. It's odd because while I don't hate her, she's part of that "healthy relationship" writers think is boring. She and Willow are so into each other and complacent that they rarely have any conflict. (I sense this is where Mary Sue Willow starts coming into play.) I'm all for seeing a loving LGBT relationship, and I adore that this show could get one in there while making it feel natural. It's not like OUAT, where it's, "GIRL KISSES GIRL! SEE! LESBIANS CAN BE TRUE LOVE TOO!" While I didn't find Ruby Slippers to be organic in any sense of the word, I totally believe Willow/Tara works. They didn't get a Very Special Episode. It's just that Tara is sweet but boring, and Willow gets everything she wants because she's viewed as some sort of underdog.

[Camera One]

Alan Zachary and Michael Weiner will be writing songs for the musical episode.

Funny enough, they're the ones who wrote the music for "Cinderella III", which I just watched a few days ago.

[Camera One]

I'm one hour into "Batman vs. Superman" right now, and what a depressing snooze.  So much for mash-ups being fun... no one is likeable and the storyline jumps all over the place.  I'm not even halfway through, though, so many it will get better.  It's kind of like "Once"... bringing together characters from different stories can have potential, but not when it's not done right and not when it's all doom and gloom with no sense of fun.  I guess I should have watched "Man of Steel" before this one, but after this first hour, I couldn't care less what the backstory is.

[daxx]

DC is still in the "Dark superheroes" stage. They haven't yet learned they have to be fun also. Their animation folks get it, they need to have them make a live action movie.

[andromeda331]

I'm not sure if the TV series the Librarians counts. But re-watching  the first season I really wish A&E would go the route they did in the Librarians when it comes to magical artifacts. Throughout the first season the Librarians collected seemingly random items as they defeat the Minotaur, the guy using a book to suck the life out of everyone and turn them into fairytales which somehow makes him youthful, the Tesla lamppost from the town they tried to save, the witchcraft app etc. But in the last episode it turns out most of the items they collected are exactly what they needed in order to bring the Library back. It would be nice if A&E did something similar instead of the sudden random item at the end. I know that would mean they would also have to plot and string the episodes together which would be fun and we could see the item or items that'll be used later to defeat the bad.  Maybe the heroes don't know what it is or that it has another use like the ball of yarn from the Minotaur episode. It would be a fun way to tie the episodes together instead of keeping them disjointed and another random item coming out of nowhere.

[KingOfHearts]

BTVS is much more consistent with the "all magic comes with a price" rule. What's the point in being a witch if nearly all your spells come back to bite you in the butt? 

[RadioGirl27]

20 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

About The Body... it's probably the best episode of S5 so far. Oh, not because of its unique artistic look on death, or Buffy/Dawn character development, or the conclusion to a popular side character. No, it's awesome because of Anya. Give her praise. She is my spirit animal. In other shows, the "blunt" character is usually robotic or desperate to find their own humanity. (I'm looking at you, Seven of Nine and Data.) But Anya is neither. She's awkward, but her innocent honesty is like Cordelia on steroids. I just love her so much. She doesn't need a tragic backstory to be interesting. She just has to be herself. Her speech to Willow was perfect in every way.

Anya's speech in The Body is just amazing, it's one of my favourite scenes in the whole series.

[Shanna Marie]

The other night, I rewatched Enchanted, mostly because I was in the mood for that sort of thing, and yet again it utterly baffles me that the writers on Once seem to be entirely uninterested in the fairy tale vs. real world culture clash. True, they're from a slightly grittier land than cartoon Disney musical world, so it's not like they're going to be doing anything so drastic as forming spontaneous musical numbers in Central Park, but at the very least, the ones without the memory download should be like time travelers from at least a couple of centuries ago. They've had Captain Hook in New York three times now without anything more than him griping about being fed bologna in jail. We didn't get to see muggers making a big mistake when taking on the guy in funny clothes or him attempting to navigate the city with his compass and one of those freebie tourist maps or him grumbling to himself when he can't stop himself from pausing to rescue someone from a mugger (not that muggers are all that common in New York these days, but that is the way it tends to be portrayed by Hollywood). We had Robin Hood in New York, and all he did was chase down a thief on horseback. Henry introduces his girlfriend from Camelot to the city, and it just amounts to "pizza is awesome." We don't get to see Robin Hood or Captain Hook learning to use cell phones or trying to watch TV. We didn't get to see Hook living in a real house for perhaps the first time since childhood. We didn't get him trying to figure out how to use a stove or refrigerator (would Emma catch him trying to store his mackerel on ice and have to show him the refrigerator?) or see him reacting to a programmable coffee maker that just suddenly starts brewing coffee.

Even the ones with the memory download are supposedly "both," so have they incorporated anything from their original lives into their Storybrooke existence? Did anyone make a choice to revert to that identity and forget about the curse identity? Grumpy seems to have, since he's no longer the town drunk, but what is he doing now? Might anyone be trying to make (and maybe sell) Enchanted Forest-style clothes out of modern materials?

Then again, the people in fairytale land somehow already knew about the concept of "dating," even before the curse, so perhaps there's not that big a culture clash, but that's its own problem ...

[KingOfHearts]

If the writers wanted to avoid writing real world culture clashes, they should have moved the show to EF and gotten rid of Storybrooke.

I also hated Henry's non-reaction to EF in the S4 finale and 5A. Here's a place he has always believed existed but never visited, yet when he finally gets to see where the fairy tales happen, he has no comment. Up until then, he had been the only main character to have never been there.

Edited March 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

56 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I also hated Henry's non-reaction to EF in the S4 finale and 5A. Here's a place he has always believed existed but never visited, yet when he finally gets to see where the fairy tales happen, he has no comment.

That reminds me of a recent episode of Legends of Tomorrow (not what I'd call a good show, but they're having so much fun, and I adore Arthur Darvill) in which they ended up in Camelot, and all of these rather seasoned time travelers, including some with multiple PhDs, were geeking out over being in Camelot, getting really into it, trying to talk in faux medieval formal speech (even as the actual historian was groaning). You'd think Henry might have done something like that. All we saw of him in Camelot was getting defensive because he was a writer (who never actually writes) rather than a hero.

[Trini]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

I guess I should have watched "Man of Steel" before this one, but after this first hour, I couldn't care less what the backstory is.

Man of Steel has its flaws, but I think it's way better than BvS, comparatively.

[Camera One]

I'm surprised A&E didn't come up with this themselves.

The new "Beauty and the Beast" movie will feature "first ever exclusively gay moment". with the character of 

Spoiler

Lefou

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/03/01/beauty-and-the-beast-to-have-disneys-first-ever-exclusively-gay-moment/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.238a7825d573

[Mathius]

Well,

Spoiler

given that he is the guy who starts up a song going into excessive detail about everything that makes Gaston great, I'd say that's fitting.

[Camera One]

I just finished "Batman vs. Superman" (beware spoilers follow) and just like "Once", they skip the interesting parts.  After 2/3 of a movie of misunderstandings, distrust, blame and animosity, there's a super-long action scene fight between Batman and Superman with practically zero communication, .  Lois Lane runs up, clears up the understanding in one line, and by the next scene, the two superheroes are off in separate ways, as allies.  After that, they hardly get to talk to each other as Batman and Superman (I counted 2 short lines, and they were both quips), before Superman "dies".  

The worldbuilding is hardly creative... Gotham City is within seeing distance of Metropolis?  There are hardly any crossovers... Alfred spends the entire movie alone or with Batman.  If you're going to do a mash-up, mash up all aspects of it.  Have Superman go to the Batcave, have Alfred work with Lois Lane, etc.  

[daxx]

Truth be told, my favorite part of that movie was the domestic scene with Clark and Lois. The rest was fine but it could have done with less dream sequences. Not a favorite movie but didn't hate it.

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, daxx said:

Truth be told, my favorite part of that movie was the domestic scene with Clark and Lois. The rest was fine but it could have done with less dream sequences. Not a favorite movie but didn't hate it.

Shirtless Henry Cavill making eggs *drools*

[Shanna Marie]

I guess I'm in the mood for fun fantasy because my next binge has been rewatching Galavant, and there's so much there that makes me weep for lost potential in Once. Galavant does have the advantage of being a spoof, so they can get away with a lot of meta in spite of having characters who are thoroughly in that world, but Once has all kinds of ways they could play with being self-aware about fairy tales. They have the "we are both" characters who are fairy tale people but who also are aware of popular culture and presumably about their roles in stories -- or did Regina keep all fairy tales out of Storybrooke, with no Disney movies or editions of Grimms' Fairy Tales? These people also have our world's pop culture knowledge. They have fairy tale people who aren't aware that they're also characters because they didn't get the memory download. And there's Emma, who grew up thoroughly grounded in our world, where all these people are characters who are very different from the "real" people. But they seldom use this. Sometimes, they do manage to have fun with it, like with the discussion about whether this is the witch you throw water on or drop a house on, with the fairy tale people unaware of Oz stuff other than through the books/movie. Or there was Emma talking about that great wizard Marty McFly and the Princess Leia alias. Otherwise, on a rare instance when they remember that these are both fairy tale characters and people, they manage to screw it up, like with Hook -- one of the few people with no awareness of the fairy tales, talking about how the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming can't really scoff at the idea of the Wicked Witch of the West.

Just think of the meta commentary they could make about fairy tale tropes with these characters and their unique situation. Might they actually get ideas from the fairy tales or use the books as source material for figuring out what's going on? What do these characters think of their Disney counterparts? Shouldn't we at least have a throwaway moment of Hook sitting and reading a copy of Peter Pan while muttering about how wrong it gets it? Shouldn't Emma and Henry be reacting more to the idea that OMG, these are real people?

Galavant also provides an interesting case study in redeeming a villain, turning our villain of season one into a hero in season two. It helps that he was never a villain to be taken seriously. He was mostly played as a buffoon, with Madalena being the real evil one. Richard's main problem was that he was so oblivious and selfish that it never seemed to strike him that other people might suffer from the things he did for fun (basically, Regina, but with a comic twist). But what helped his redemption was that he was really brought down. He lost a kingdom, his wife, and his best friend, then went back to his home kingdom and realized he'd lost that, too. That's when he had a huge wake-up call and realized what a terrible king he'd been, how he'd hurt people, and most of it had been foolish (baby fights). He had nothing better to do than support Galavant's quest, and even there, he wasn't wanted. Nobody really respected him or liked him, but he turned out to be utterly loyal and had great faith, which helped him save the day. That's what we're missing with Regina. She hasn't lost a thing (other than her boyfriend). She hasn't really had to work for anything. She hasn't gained any self awareness.

[KingOfHearts]

Emerald City just finished tonight with its season finale. It was crap and sucked so hard.  The main problems were two things: 1) lots of story setups were not followed up on at all, and 2) there were contrived twists that didn't add any value. Over the season, there were many mysteries, which meant the reveals had to be satisfying. They weren't, so anyone who watched is left with a sour taste in their mouth. The finale was probably written with a second season in mind, which, let's face, ain't happening. So many plot threads were left up in the air and now they'll never be resolved.

It gives me no hope for OUAT's ending.

[Camera One]

I'll be able to watch it in an hour, so I'll read your post then.

I was just watching a Youtube clip with Madame Mim, and what a shame this crazy character didn't make it into 5A.  It would have injected some fun.  She would have been a good deranged villainess.  Maybe she could have replaced Nimue.  Merlin's ex who dabbled too far into magic and became out of control?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Merlin's ex who dabbled too far into magic and became out of control?

I don't know why they didn't have Morgana LeFay, either. But who knows - maybe the Black Fairy's name is actually Morgana.

[Camera One]

I just watched "The Giver".  I loved the book, and this movie was of course not as good, but I still thought it was decent.  I went on Metacritic and the reviews were pretty bad, though.  It seems like some of the reviewers had read the book, but I wasn't sure if some people were ragging on it because of saturation of this type of Young Adult dystopian world.  It's ironic that even though this story (from the book) pre-dated all the recent books like "The Hunger Games", the movie ends up branded as a copycat.  

I think "Once" could go into the realm of Sci-fi at some point if there were a Season 11... a sameness 1984 type world.  It wouldn't be too bad as a half-season adventure.