OUAT vs. Other Fairy Tales: Compare & Contrast

[Shanna Marie]

I really thought Buffy started struggling after season 3, when they were out of high school. I think there was real potential to continue the "high school is hell" metaphor into college, and at first it seemed like that's what they were doing, but then they went off on weird tangents, and they lost that metaphor for life phases that held the show together thematically.

I'm not sure Once would have worked if they'd strung out the curse longer. They just needed to have actually dealt with the aftermath instead of rushing on to the next plot. Other than them being in Storybrooke, the curse doesn't seem to have had any effect on the current situation.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

They remind me much Storybrooke in S1. I wasn't all that impressed with the purgatory ending, so it was mostly a waste of time to me. A few were interesting, though. Most of it was "OMG, this person is interacting with this person! Look at the references to earlier seasons!"

Yes, I agree.  To me, the good flashsideways were the ones where characters were confronted with a different situation and they made different decisions (in hindsight, knowing they had already lived their lives)... for example, Jack's relationship with his fake son shed light on his own relationship with his father, and Ben/Locke's flashsideways showed them on a different path or attitude.

But it's very reminiscent with "Once" in the sense, that for the supporting characters the Writers didn't care about or seemed bored by, the flashsideways were used as cameo city... for example Sun and Jin's flashsideways were basically to bring back Keamy and Omar from the Freighter crew.  This is like how Snow or Charming's flashbacks are sometimes used to feature guest stars like Anna or Hercules.

[Free]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

To think A&E were planning to break it halfway through S1. They couldn't wait to get to the point where they no longer had to consider realism.

Sad but true, it kept the shows grounded and allowed the interesting aspects of character interactions, a better sense of community instead of jumping from plot point to plot point.

[KingOfHearts]

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I'm not sure Once would have worked if they'd strung out the curse longer.

Break the curse, but don't bring magic in a way that makes it exactly like EF. That's what I would have liked to see.

Edited December 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[daxx]

Maybe the curse didn't need to be broken so soon, but Emma needed to start believing because she was starting to look obtuse. Perhaps if the curse broke on individuals not the whole town at once and season two could have been her breaking each person's curse by solving their issue. the magic could have been brought later .

[KingOfHearts]

Well, at least with Buffy's death prophecy, they didn't make her brood for ten episodes or lie to her friends for weeks. I'm glad it was formally introduced and gone within the span of one episode. I loved how Buffy reacted to it and chose duty over herself. It's also nice that the show acknowledged she was just a sixteen-year-old girl. It was smart to do that plot in the first season. One of the problems with the Emma prophecy plot is that it's happening so late in the game. There's nothing explaining why her tremors waited so long to start.

I adored Willow's reaction to the pile of dead bodies. She was just traumatized. On Once, she would have said, "The Master is unforgivable!" then later begged him for forgiveness because she slayed his mother who was about to kill all her friends and family.

Edited December 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Looking past the dated hair and wardrobe, Buffy still has a lot to offer.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm in S2 and got to the introduction of Spike. Now, from what I've heard while trying to avoid spoilers, he has a very controversial arc later in the series. I actually liked him as an antagonist, but he reminds so much of Once villain. Guilty of things that make him irredeemable, chews the scenery a lot, etc. He's much more memorable than the Master. I cheered when he killed the Anointed One, because having a kid in charge was just cringey and weird. (It wasn't creepy to me, just stupid.) Spike seems to be the first antagonist worth watching.

I bet A&E took inspiration from him for Regina and Rumple... and Zelena. and Pan. and Hades.

Edited December 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

He's an example of an antagonists who the viewers like watching and the writers like writing for because they're wisecracking, unapologetic, flamboyant... it's kinda like Ben Linus on "Lost".  

[KingOfHearts]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He's an example of an antagonists who the viewers like watching and the writers like writing for because they're wisecracking, unapologetic, flamboyant... it's kinda like Ben Linus on "Lost".  

Flamboyant antagonists tend to blend together at the end of the day. They're all trying to be the Joker. Although, I can't really complain. I'm one of the suckers who like watching them. It's one of the reasons I loved Once Upon a Time. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Except The Joker usually don't get a redemption arc.  TV shows tend to pick the "fun" characters to showcase and often, it's the deeply flawed but is human deep deep deep deep deep deep deep deep underneath.  Writers love giving extra screentime to those characters.  

Meanwhile, the normal everyday characters tend to get shafted.  This is particularly the case with what I shall call The Best Friend Elimination syndrome.  On many shows, this "boring" character eventually falls to the wayside.  In "Alias" Season 1, I was drawn to the show since it was showing how a secret agent balanced life as a "normal" university student, and there was her best friends Francie and Will.  And look what happened to them in Season 2.  On "Smallville", Clark had Best Friend Pete, who was gone by Season 3.  

[KAOS Agent]

For the vampires on Buffy, I think you have to remember that all of the long lived vampires are pretty much irredeemable if you review their crimes. Vampires are soulless, conscienceless, evil beings. They love to kill and torture and they don't feel guilt. Buffy is seen as completely in the right to kill vampires at will. She sits in the cemetery and kills them the second they rise before they even have a chance to act because they are all evil. The difference between Once and Buffy is that Buffy didn't shy away from the crimes committed by vampires or try to pretend they weren't awful and didn't happen - at least not the way Once does. Someone may try to justify things because where's the drama if everything's black and white or everyone always agrees, but if Spike massacred a village in the past, no one's going to pretend it's anything other than evil. And Spike isn't going to try to pin the blame for it on anyone else, he'll take credit for it. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't really have an opinion on the Buffy redemption arcs because they haven't really been going yet. Angel barely started his, and that only has to do with his romance with Buffy. I do like the fact vampires are irredeemable by default (like the Borg), because that gives the heroes the freedom to do whatever they need to do to save the day. You don't get all the "heroes don't kill" nonsense from Once. It's a monster show, after all.

Cordelia works so much than Regina because she is not *that* terrible of a person at first. Whenever she says something bitchy, the other characters are allowed to come back at her.

[Camera One]

Individual vampires are like the Black Knights.  They're just disposable.  

[Mari]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Cordelia works so much than Regina because she is not *that* terrible of a person at first. Whenever she says something bitchy, the other characters are allowed to come back at her.

Plus, she's a teenager.

Regina's at least 65--probably 70.  She should have recognized the humanity of other people long, long ago.  (And in a land far, far away.)  Both characters were status-conscious, contemptuous of others, and self-centered, but only one of them is a teenager.  

Disclaimer:  Yes, I know that lots of teenagers are amazing, generous, kind, and loving people.  But lots of teenagers are immature, and are just currently going through some unpleasant growing pains.

Regina doesn't grow.  Cordelia does.

[KingOfHearts]

I saw Star Wars: Rogue One today. I don't think anyone is going to read what's in the spoiler tag for a few weeks, lol.

Spoiler

I really couldn't care about any of the characters. Their motivations were not very clear at all. Jyn wanted to complete her father's work, but that was about it. She was a very bland character and there was no reason for the other characters to like her or even trust her. Everyone was moving by the script, not by organic decision-making. None of them were very memorable. The droid was sarcastic robot #45430277.  To me, it was like The Bear King or Ruby Slippers. We interrupt your important, continuing saga to bring you the latest on some characters you will never care about. It was vital to the timeline for them to steal the Death Star plans, yes, but that's about all it really contributed to the grand scheme of things. It would be fine if the movie was its own thing and had its own entertainment value, but that wasn't the case.

I heard that halfway through production, Disney stepped in and ordered major changes to the script because it was too dark. It really shows. Sometimes, it feels like a Star Wars movie. In others, it's a bleak ripoff of Hunger Games. On one hand, you've got a dictatorship with people dying left and right. On the other, you've got wisecracking robots and brief mentions of the Force. I just couldn't figure out what this movie was trying to be. I thought, perhaps, they were going the Suicide Squad/Guardians of the Galaxy angle (which it did in some parts), with a team of rogues going on dangerous missions for the greater good. It was almost like Once. It wasn't especially dark, just depressing and hopeless. (When the theme is supposed to be hope... sound familiar?)

The third act was my favorite, simply because I expected the movie to be a group of rebels breaking into an Imperial base to steal plans and at that point the movie finally did what it promised. The first two-thirds were boring and spent so much time running from planet to planet. The only real characterization had to do with Jyn's dad, but it wasn't anything I hadn't seen in a dozen other movies. It's not that I really needed to see the characters fleshed out, but Star Wars has always had the knack for creating likeable or unforgettable characters in a short amount of time. Force Awakens carried that on exceptionally well. If the focus was on good action, it wouldn't have been a big problem. But, the awesome battles didn't pick up until the third act. I'll play devil's advocate and say even the prequels spent their time better. As long and dull as they were, they at least gave us some interesting political drama and worldbuilding. Rogue One is better than they are overall, but you get my drift.

I couldn't feel any emotion when everyone died in the end. It was painstakingly obvious that they only died so we wouldn't ask where they went in the Original Trilogy. The movie had to tie up everything neatly with a bow so there wouldn't be continuity errors. It was definitely tragic and showed the more morbid side of the Star Wars universe. Was all that really necessary though? Did we really need to know that Luke Skywalker's waltz into the Death Star came at the cost of so many lives? Rogue One just seemed cliche and superfluous to me. It just did not need to exist nor prove it's worthy to. It's just another expansion of the universe that fills in the blanks you never really cared about in the first place.

All that aside, I cannot tell you how glorious it was to watch Vader just rip through a hallway full of rebels. That was perfection and worth the price of admission ten times over. I was also totally shocked by the Young Leia cameo. It was really jarring but funny because it happened so soon after all the main characters died. It was like, "The Original Trilogy! Remember how happy it was?" In case you thought it was actually about the Mockingjay.

I'm not even that big of a Star Wars fan, but I felt the need to analyze it. I've heard a lot of folks gushing about it and I found it overrated. The visuals and production quality were stunning, but the story was really bleh.

Apparently Sam Witwer (Hyde from Once) was an additional voice in it.

Edited December 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts
It takes extraordinary talent to forget to type entire words.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about Santa, The Grinch, Scrooge and Frosty the Snowman again, and how instead of a Christmas special, "Once" could devote an entire half season to holiday icons, from St. Patrick, to Cupid to a Being that comes in like a Lion and leaves like a Lamb, to the Easter bunny, the Groundhog, the Original Mother and the Original Father, and how the Pilgrims in Fictional Pilgrim Land met Pocahontas, to various different cultural holidays (such as how Mulan was involved in various Ancient Chinese festivals). That could easily take up 9 episodes and then they could do a season finale to launch us into the next half season.

[Camera One]

On 12/24/2016 at 8:50 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I saw Star Wars: Rogue One today.

I haven't watched it, but whenever I see "Rogue", I think Regina, because of the R and the g.

[KingOfHearts]

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I was thinking about Santa

Freeing the elf slaves from Santa's tyranny would be better than 6A. Heck, Blue relegating a pissed off Tooth Fairy to collecting teeth would have been too.

Edited December 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That would make a good alternate 6A!

6-1 The Savior: Elf On the Shelf comes to life and tells Emma that he too is a Savior, as everyone goes to Fictional North Pole Land to help stop Evil Santa from being mean to the Elves.

6-2 A Bitter Draught: Emma and Henry begin Operation Xmas and plan to give Santa a drink to put him into a deep sleep.  But they must get a special poison from The Count of Monte Cristo and convince him to stop his revenge against the Evil Tiny Tim who ruined his life and killed his father Ebeneezer Scrooge.

6-3 The Other Shoe: Snow and Charming go back to Storybrooke to get the Magical Stocking from Cinderella to help the Elves but Lady Tremaine tries to hunt them down with an axe instead.

6-4 Strange Case: Evil Santa divides himself in half, which turns out to be The Evil Sintaklaas and The Jolly Ol' Saint Nick who has amnesia.  Regina must go to Fictional Stories land to find Dr. Jekyll to learn how to kill The Evil Sinterklaas.

6-5 Street Rats: Emma and friends find Aladdin, who had been sent (by Jafar) to Fictional North Pole Land aka "The Ends of The Earth".  They go to Agrabah to help Aladdin save Jasmine from Jafar and get Magic Arabian Sand which can help cure Jolly Ol' Saint Nick's amnesia.

6-6 Dark Waters: Hook recruits his old friend Captain Nemo to get the Magic Yule Log from Fictional Victorian England to Fictional North Pole, but they end up trapped in their submersible in ice, and they try to drill through the ice with limited oxygen supplies.  Faced with certain death, Emma asks Hook to move in when they're back in Storybrooke.

6-7 Heartless: The heroes quest to find Mrs. Klaus' heart, which had been stolen by the White Witch who tried to banish Christmas from Narnia.  Once Mrs. Klaus has her heart back, a TLK would break the Curse suffered by the amnesiac Santa.  The TLK cures Santa and all the Elves are happy.

6-8 I'll Be Your Mirror: The heroes help Santa get to Narnia and defeat the White Witch for good, as we find out her sad backstory involving The Grinch.

6-9 Changelings: It is New Years' Day, but Father Time needs the heroes' help, since The Black Fairy stole the New Year Baby and replaced him with Magic Kindling.  Magic Kindling TLKs Belle, who finally wakes up.

6-10 Wish You Were Here: As they begin their journey home, the heroes get caught in a Storm by Ghost of Possible Christmas Futures, and they must find a way to escape by searching for Rudolph's Red Nose.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

For me, watching Spike's evolution unfold was far more satisfying than Angel's redemption story (most of which took place in Offscreenville).

[KingOfHearts]

There are so many similarities between Buffy and Emma it's not even funny. It's so bad, I'm surprised Joss Whedon hasn't sued A&E or something.

As much as I hate Xander, I love him and Cordelia together. I was cheering when they kissed for the first time. Their relationship sort of reminds me of what one would be like with Regina and Hook. However, I think Regina needs someone who really doesn't care about morals. Not that they have to be evil, but they shouldn't be bothered that she used to be mass-murdering tyrant. That may make it seem like the pool is narrow, but in the Once universe, it's really not all the far fetched. With Robin, it was as though he was completely unaware of the details of Regina's past.

Edited December 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's really interesting.  I never thought Emma was similar to Buffy, but you're right that there are many commonalities.  I guess after watching the seasons of "Buffy", she was unique in my mind.

I started watching "Buffy" in Season 2 and I think my first episode was a Xander centric on the swim team?  So maybe that's why I liked Xander when I started watching.  

Cordelia was smart and witty and mean so she had the appeal of sassy Regina The Mayor.  That has always been the problem... THAT Regina could have been redeemed.  Village Massacre Regina... not so much.

Regina and pure as snow Robin works as well as Rumple as pure as snow Belle.  In some ways, a villain romantic pairing like Hades and Zelena was more convincing despite being developed in a single episode and one bike ride.

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Cordelia was smart and witty and mean so she had the appeal of sassy Regina The Mayor.  That has always been the problem... THAT Regina could have been redeemed.  Village Massacre Regina... not so much.

There's a huge difference between someone who comes across as mean because she has zero filter and says exactly what she thinks and someone who comes across as mean because she's a mass murderer. The OUAT writers don't seem to recognize this difference. I get the feeling they think they're writing Regina as Cordelia but forgetting that Cordelia didn't ever try to murder Buffy or any member of her family. She just said snarky and cutting things.

I recently read Robin McKinley's version of the Robin Hood story, Outlaws of Sherwood, and it yet again made me annoyed at how badly they bungled Robin Hood. Aside from his frequent talk of a vague code and a speech about how if you steal to give to other people, you're a hero, we didn't know what this Robin stood for. Was the Sheriff of Nottingham his only enemy, or was there a "Prince John" for him to be opposing? Was there anything political about how he came to be an outlaw, or was he really just a common thief who took from poor people until Marian schooled him on that? If he felt it was okay to rob from the rich to give to the poor, what did he think about Regina? There might have been some potential there for a true opposites attract kind of thing, but they didn't bother even acknowledging their differences, let alone addressing them. Robin was never an actual character.

[KingOfHearts]

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She just said snarky and cutting things.

Cordelia is pretty dumb too. At least up to S2, it doesn't seem like she knows better. We've seen time and again that Regina does.

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That's really interesting.  I never thought Emma was similar to Buffy, but you're right that there are many commonalities.  I guess after watching the seasons of "Buffy", she was unique in my mind.

I won't go through the laundry list of parallels, because most of them are pretty obvious. (Plus, Buffy/Angel is pretty much Captain Swan.) I got to the episode where Buffy found out there's another Slayer from another country. I thought, "Wait, didn't I just see this?!" At least BTVS explained why there were multiple.

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I started watching "Buffy" in Season 2 and I think my first episode was a Xander centric on the swim team?  So maybe that's why I liked Xander when I started watching.  

Same kind of thing happened with me and Regina. I started watching during the whole Woegina lasagna phase, not comprehending the gravity of her transgressions. (Not trying to compare that with Xander. I just find him obnoxious and superfluous. He doesn't really contribute in a meaningful way to the team, at least not yet.)

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Cordelia was smart and witty and mean so she had the appeal of sassy Regina The Mayor.  That has always been the problem... THAT Regina could have been redeemed.  Village Massacre Regina... not so much.

I totally agree. If you take Mayor Regina, get rid of the murders and attempted murders, she's pretty redeemable. She still abused Henry, but that's easier to get past than mass murder.

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Regina and pure as snow Robin works as well as Rumple as pure as snow Belle.  In some ways, a villain romantic pairing like Hades and Zelena was more convincing despite being developed in a single episode and one bike ride.

Rumpbelle only works in three ways: Rumple goes good, Belle goes dark, or the show recognizes it's a twisted relationship. With Outlaw Queen, it's the same kind of thing and the writers chose "none of the above" again. It's less jarring with Regina and Robin because they lacked so much substance and development together that there really wasn't much to cringe about. All they were really known for was pixie dust and crypt sex. After 4A, there was far less emotional manipulation toward the audience than with Rumpbelle. Once Zelena entered the picture, that was all she wrote. (Are Gideon and the Black Fairy the death of Rumpbelle focus?)

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For me, watching Spike's evolution unfold was far more satisfying than Angel's redemption story 

I'm not really impressed with Angel so far. He's much like current Hook - too much brooding, not enough energy. One thing I like about the Buffy characters is that even though there's big drama and their lives are regularly in danger, they never lose their spark. They always have witty things to say and they remain highly motivated. The character on Once spend way too much time sitting around depressed. I'm not looking for a comedy show, but in earliest seasons, they were much more entertaining. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

If you take Mayor Regina, get rid of the murders and attempted murders, she's pretty redeemable. She still abused Henry, but that's easier to get past than mass murder.

I think Mayor Regina was redeemable on the "reluctant ally against common enemy" level. It's kind of hard to imagine them ever being best friends with her. That's another thing that worked with Cordy -- she was never really what I'd call good friends with Buffy and the others. She was able to work with them and fight monsters with them, and once she was in on the secret, she was kind of stuck with them as the only people she could talk to openly, but they didn't really hang out socially for fun. They still found her annoying, were horrified when she and Xander started dating, and it was more like they tolerated her than actually liked her. It was awkward when they had to show sympathy to her. It wasn't as though she suddenly became Buffy's very best friend, shoving her relationship with Willow out of the way, and Buffy never would have ditched Angel after a crisis to go hang out with Cordelia, even if Cordy never murdered Buffy's grandfather or tried to murder her.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

The character on Once spend way too much time sitting around depressed. I'm not looking for a comedy show, but in earliest seasons, they were much more entertaining. 

Definitely.  

I remembered another major difference in Buffy.  When the gang was in the library, it felt like they were actually doing something and getting somewhere, coming up with strategies, etc.  For some reason, when the "Once" characters are in the library, the books seem like just props they're sitting in front of.  Marathoning 5B and the 6A premiere, there is a lot of dialogue about how they have no idea how to defeat (insert villain here).  

Edited December 28, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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I remembered another major difference in Buffy.  When the gang was in the library, it felt like they were actually doing something and getting somewhere.  For some reason, when the characters are in the library, the books seem like just props they're sitting in front of.

It helps that Giles is the exposition fairy. That role on Once always shifts between Henry, Rumple, Regina, and random other characters. There wasn't really anyone to explain the Savior role or anything. Emma's had to make it up as she's gone along after the curse.

[Camera One]

That's a good point.  Giles was authoritative so it was believable but he was also "good".  It's ridiculous when someone like Henry or August or even Belle starts spewing wise knowledge, and it's even worse when it has to be Regina or Rumple or Zelena who's the know-it-all (the most recent case was when Rumple claimed he could "sense" Hades had bought the God crystal to Storybrooke and later, Regina and Zelena claimed to sense its aura in the clocktower... I know this show is about magic, but I still don't buy it).  

Having Blue, or Merlin, or someone with some good magical stature giving the background would make a big difference to me on "Once".

[KingOfHearts]

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Having Blue, or Merlin, or someone with some good magical stature giving the background would make a big difference to me on "Once".

It's an issue with the worldbuilding. On Buffy, there's centuries worth of vampire knowledge to work with. While it can be a little contrived at times, at least the sources that attempt to explain the rules are usually credible. Rumple usually works well when it comes to exposition concerning magic, but he so rarely works with the heroes that he mostly just does his thing without explaining it. I don't really understand how Regina can be so well-versed in knowledge when we never saw anything to back it up. She was a subpar student of magic and she didn't spend time doing research on other realms. (How the heck did she know Oz existed? Why would she know that?) Belle has the opposite problem - we see her study, but she never gives any useful information. (Unlike Willow, whose research usually pays off.)

Edited December 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Sometimes, Belle comes in with a deus-ex-machina, doesn't she?  The most ridiculous one recently was in "My Handsome Hero" when she looked up that this powerful mirror that can spot all evil is a quick journey away.

[pezgirl7]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Plus, Buffy/Angel is pretty much Captain Swan.

For me Buffy/Spike = CaptainSwan. One of the main reasons is that in the beginning they were enemies, and Spike was souless, while Angel wasn't. Then again, I was never a fan of Buffy/Angel. Plus Spike and Hook both have the snarky, hot British dude clad in leather thing down pretty good.

[KingOfHearts]

29 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

For me Buffy/Spike = CaptainSwan. One of the main reasons is that in the beginning they were enemies, and Spike was souless, while Angel wasn't. Then again, I was never a fan of Buffy/Angel. Plus Spike and Hook both have the snarky, hot British dude clad in leather thing down pretty good.

Buffy/Spike becomes a thing?!

Oh dear.

[InsertWordHere]

I've always seen Buffy/Angel as more similar to Emma/Neal if that relationship had played out in real time instead of flashbacks. I'm not sure how far along @KingOfHearts is so I will be vague but the whole first love, much older man with a youthful face (back half of BTVS Season 2 spoiler) 

Spoiler

who emotionally damages the young heroine 

has always fit way more with my view of the Swanfire relationship than how I view Captain Swan. To be fair, there's only one episode in all of BTVS or ATS where I have had positive feelings for the Bangel relationship so I admit to having a bias against it. 

Spoiler

While the Dark Hook arc also very closely mirrors the Angelus arc, the important difference in my view is that Angelus is who Angel would have been without intervention while Dark Hook is who Hook became with a forced intervention. While vengeful pirate Hook and Angelus are somewhat similar, Hook eventually made the decision on his own to change his path and he made the decision again as Dark One Hook. 

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think either Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike are a perfect match for Captain Swan or Swanfire. I think they stole bits and pieces of both for this show. I made a snarky post sometime either in season 4 or between 4 and 5 about what this show would be like if Joss Whedon wrote it, and that ended up being almost exactly what happened in 5A. But there are also elements of Spike.

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Buffy/Spike becomes a thing?!

Buffy was on for seven seasons. A lot of things happen.  Buffy hit the same rough territory in its later seasons as Once has. The difference is that S6 of Buffy still had some really memorable/rewatchable episodes and Once hasn't delivered even one of those in S6.  It is interesting that Buffy was also bashed for the unrelieved depressing storylines in S6. The fun was missing. I blame Dawn.

Question: Does Once have any episodes in the later seasons that are fun to pull up and rewatch? There are a bunch of Buffy episodes I rewatch when I find them on cable. "Hush" is one of my favorites and "Once More with Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa" are also fun. What sticks out to me about these episodes is that they aren't favorites because they feature my favorite Buffy character or any special romantic moment between a ship I liked. They are just super fun to watch. I can't think of any recent episodes that meet that standard on Once.

[KingOfHearts]

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Question: Does Once have any episodes in the later seasons that are fun to pull up and rewatch? There are a bunch of Buffy episodes I rewatch when I find them on cable. "Hush" is one of my favorites and "Once More with Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa" are also fun. What sticks out to me about these episodes is that they aren't favorites because they feature my favorite Buffy character or any special romantic moment between a ship I liked. They are just super fun to watch. I can't think of any recent episodes that meet that standard on Once.

The only one I can think of offhand is "The Other Shoe". There's a few other good ones, but they're not well-suited for standalone rewatches. ("Birth", "Last Rites", etc.)

Edited December 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[pezgirl7]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Buffy/Spike becomes a thing?!

Oh dear.

Sorry if I spoiled it! I just figured most people knew that, even if they didn't watch the show. I'd be interested to know what you think of the pairing, when the time comes. I wasn't on message boards back when I watched the show, so I really don't know how people reacted. On paper, it sounds wacko, but I think the way it played out made sense.

I love Once More With Feeling, and I've always wanted a musical episode of OUAT. But now I don't think the writers would be able to pull it off.

[KingOfHearts]

The age difference with Buffy/Angel is a little more glaring than Emma/Hook. Angel looks older than Buffy and she's only a minor. With Emma and Hook, they look roughly the same age and they're both mature adults. I can't say I'm a huge fan of Buffy/Angel because it seems like they're together because A) they find the other the hot and B) they're both lonely individuals who can only be understood by the other. They don't have a ton of chemistry, and I actually find Angel to be kind of bland for such an interesting kind of character. He's either a mysterious figure or a tortured puppy. In some ways, he exemplifies some of my least favorite qualities of Hook. (Too much brooding.)

Edited December 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Angel is hampered by David Boreanaz's complete lack of acting skill. They hired him originally to be a hot, brooding mystery character, so his lack of skill wasn't important, then Angel was given a larger role and it's more of a problem. To give David credit, he took a lot of acting classes and has greatly improved, but early in Buffy, especially S1 Buffy, he was truly terrible. 

Buffy/Angel was always super creepy to me once they showed a flashback to a hundreds of years old Angel creepily stalking an unaware 14/15 year old Buffy. That's really gross. Even Neal wasn't stalking Emma before they met. Emma/Hook were both mature adults when they met and the age thing doesn't really bother me.  Belle/Rumpel are in a similar position. Of all the problems I have with Rumbelle, the age issue isn't something I even think about.

[InsertWordHere]

1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

I wasn't on message boards back when I watched the show, so I really don't know how people reacted.

They reacted badly. On Fan Forum there was a "regular" Buffy thread and a separate thread just for that pairing. Not a thread just to talk about that pairing, mind you, but a thread for fans of the pairing to talk about the show as a whole because they weren't welcome in the main thread.

Spoiler

This was after the event in Season Six that polarized the whole fandom, to be fair.

[Camera One]

I liked "Buffy", but I wasn't engaged enough to discuss it much on message boards (plus with the slow internet speeds back then).  

[Shanna Marie]

I discussed Buffy on Usenet. (And walked to school in the snow, uphill both ways.) I wasn't a fan of either Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike. None of her relationships were what I'd call healthy. I did think that Buffy/Angel was creepy because of the age -- not the centuries as a vampire, but he was 24 when he was turned, so even in human years he was in statutory rape territory with 16-year-old Buffy (just as with Neal and Emma). I wasn't crazy about Angel as a character until the spinoff, and he worked better there because they let him be funny instead of brooding -- and when he did brood, they poked fun at it. Boreanaz was much better at being goofy than he was at the serious drama. Actually, I wasn't planning to watch the spinoff because I thought Angel was boring, and I didn't like Cordelia (I've since developed a retroactive appreciation for her, but at that time, the teen mean girl was kind of triggering for me). But the night the pilot aired, I was in New York for a trade show and had just escaped the pre-show team meeting with a plate of meeting refreshments, and I wanted nothing more than to chill for a little while, and that was all that was on. I was very quickly hooked and found that both characters improved upon being removed from their initial setting.

[Camera One]

I didn't mind Angel (I tend to like "boring" characters), but I did find the age a lot more disturbing since it was built into the story and she was clearly in high school.  To me, Neal/Emma was basically really bad math, bad planning, and a sloppy attempt to retcon a backstory onto stuff they had decided on as the premise.

[KingOfHearts]

BTVS seems to be one of the shows that spawns a... passionate fandom. There's ships and love triangles everywhere, a lot of surprise developments that draw different reactions out of people and the genre is very diverse. There's been several points where I've thought, "Oh I wonder how others reacted to that." As I've said before, I have opinions now that I know will change in later seasons. It's just one of the shows that turns itself on its head eventually.

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I didn't mind Angel (I tend to like "boring" characters), but I did find the age a lot more disturbing since it was built into the story and she was clearly in high school. 

I got to the episode where Angel and Buffy had coffee. It was disturbing. Their relationship was very lustful, imo. It was so awkward when Buffy had to talk to her mom about their deed. Her mom thought he was an abusive, college-aged boyfriend. Buffy had just turned 17, how was I supposed to see the romance in the erotic visuals? Just ew. With Captain Swan, I have no qualms. They can make supreme tacos with hot sauce for all I care.

I noticed the show is starting to get into the grayer territories with the Angelus stuff. When Buffy spared him in the mall because "she wasn't ready yet", I got bad memories of Snowing sparing Regina. Ms. Calendar wouldn't have been dead if Buffy could've gotten over her boyfriend blues a little quicker. I get she was just a teenager and nobody is saying that was the right thing to do, but still. Who knows how many innocent people Angelus has killed. I think I'm just biased due to Once. I don't hate Buffy for it, I just sort of side-eye. 

And oh my gosh. Angelus = Dark Hook all the freaking way. Also, while I can accept he's part of the show's fabric, I still despise Xander. Him and Cordelia really deserve each other.

Edited December 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't watch "Vikings" but I happened upon an article (beware spoilers) with one of the actors..

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 “Early on, he was too much a hero, too nice,” says Fimmel. “It’s very hard to play a man without any flaws. I begged all the time in the first couple years: ‘Make me horrible, and then let me overcome it.’ You feel a lot more getting booed than cheered, you know what I mean?”

Everyone loves a redemption arc, I guess.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

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Also, while I can accept he's part of the show's fabric, I still despise Xander.

Xander is an awful, terrible, no good, very bad, self righteous hypocrite. He's also whiny and rarely contributes anything except to screw things up. I hate Xander. From S3 on, I wanted him to die. And then die some more. Go away, Xander! He's a million times more awful than Henry because at least Henry is just a kid. Xander was a full adult in later seasons and pulls the same shit as Henry and no one ever really calls him on it. People die because of Xander's idiocy just like Henry's dumbass moves.  He makes me stabby. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

58 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Xander is an awful, terrible, no good, very bad, self righteous hypocrite. He's also whiny and rarely contributes anything except to screw things up. I hate Xander. From S3 on, I wanted him to die. And then die some more. Go away, Xander! He's a million times more awful than Henry because at least Henry is just a kid. Xander was a full adult in later seasons and pulls the same shit as Henry and no one ever really calls him on it. People die because of Xander's idiocy just like Henry's dumbass moves.  He makes me stabby. 

KAOS Agent, you're my new friend. Being new to the Buffy world, I'm glad I'm not the only who hates Xander. And yes, I do compare him with Henry because they both like to spout nonsense at the most inappropriate times. Xander contributes nothing to the group. Not even muscle. Cordelia is actually more useful. All Xander does is cause problems.

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Buffy/Angel was always super creepy to me once they showed a flashback to a hundreds of years old Angel creepily stalking an unaware 14/15 year old Buffy. That's really gross. 

The Angel flashbacks stunk of Once. What a cheap way to get sympathy. I thought they were boring and didn't really add anything. The Buffy stalking was a retcon (sort of) we really didn't need.

Something I wish Once didn't try to copy from Buffy are the corny voiceover speeches.

Edited December 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Just wait until they start doing the flashbacks of Angel's early days (I don't remember if those started on Buffy or came up on Angel) where we get to hear Boreanaz attempt an Irish accent. I've joked that the big difference between the Dark Hook plot and the Angelus plot is that if they did the same kind of origin flashbacks, Hook would have a much better Irish accent (that would sound nothing like Angel's "Irish" accent). But at least they seemed to get that if you've lived in a place for more than a hundred years, you might pick up the local accent, so the accents meant something, unlike OUAT where they're so random.

Xander is one of those characters about whom my opinion has retroactively changed. I liked him some in the early goings because he was the regular Joe, the person without superpowers or anything special about him. But as I got older and more distant from high school (I was in my 20s when the series started) and more aware of the world, I realized that he was a typical "Nice Guy," with all the creepiness that entails, and his later behavior made me see even his high school behavior in a different light. I also changed my opinion about Willow. During the high school years, I might have overidentified with her a wee bit (the brainy, shy girl with a mad crush on her male best friend was basically me), but she became somewhat insufferable in later seasons when she sort of became "Willow Sue" and you could tell the writers lost all objectivity about writing her. They were also inconsistent about whether or not you were supposed to see her horrible actions as a bad thing.

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Angel flashbacks stunk of Once.

I think they shared the same "high quality" wigs.

I always felt Angel and Buffy were a bit of a cliche -- the standard star crossed Romeo Vampire and Juliet Slayer.  They had decent chemistry, but I did not get this great love, but more of a high school girl with a crush on an older man who never should have reciprocated  and gotten physically involved with her.  Angel looked like he could have been a college boy the first season, but looked like someone who should have been arrested for being with a high school girl by the time he left.  They seemed more like a plot point than a viable couple who could have a conversation that did not involve slaying or making out.   

I don't think they were overly popular as a romantic couple (and I would have been fine with them remaining just friends), but I thought Cordy and Angel were much more believable.  Maybe because Angel had a personality by then and was not just the brooding stereotype, and when he did get broody, Cordy would call him on it and not go to the teenage angst,  It also helped that the two actors were much closer than age,  I think Charisma was actually 27 when Buffy first stared, and once they got out of the high school scene for Angel - they both seemed like young adults close in age (even if Angel was a few hundred years older).  I could actually see Angel and Cordelia hanging out and having a beer and shooting the breeze.  Angel and Buffy not so much.

I remember reading a post -- I think on Television Without Pity - of someone who was watching old Buffy episodes and lamenting how they completely dropped the brainy research and computer skilled side Willow in later seasons.  

While they were mismatched and could never have been a long-term couple, I actually thought Cordy and Zander had some entertaining moments.