S02.E03: Season 2, Episode 3

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Margaret must focus on business but a visit to the Pleasure Gardens leads to an unexpected confrontation. Charlotte tries to secure a powerful ally and gain Margaret's approval, while Lucy falls under Fallon's spell.

[snowwhyte]

Oh, Lucy, you should have trusted your instincts and had nothing to do with Lord Fallon. I am dreading seeing where her story goes. After the trauma she suffered in the first season it was nice to see her being less of a victim this season. 

The scene with Charlotte and Nancy was sweet. One thing this show does well is emphasizing the connections between all the characters. Some shows ignore relationships until they are needed to service the plot but Harlots really builds the emotional connections that make the characters more realistic and sympathetic.

[ferjy]

Yes, poor Lucy, striving for a better life. I fear anything but is in store for her with Fallon. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by ferjy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Lydia and May's uproarious laughter after Charles said he loved Emily was hilarious.

Oh, Lucy. You have no idea what you've gotten yourself into with Fallon. How long before she runs back to her mom? Then again, once he shows his true colors, she will probably stay because she thinks her 500 guineas a year will help her family so she'll suffer in silence.

When Hunt asked Violet how women end up in bawdy houses and said that he wanted to understand, I wondered if this was the beginning of him turning a corner and not being such a hardass towards the girls anymore. I guess he had never considered what drives a woman to prostitute herself but did he really believe all of these women grew up thinking, "I want to become a whore when I grow up!"?

I love that Emily is not having any of Charles lying about the house doing nothing. Their sex off had me laughing because Emily clearly did not care about Charles giving Cherry a test drive even though he was obviously jealous that she had the nerve to take a client.

May seems a lot fonder of Lydia than Lydia is of May. But DAMN, Lydia and her dad? Yowza.

Edited July 20, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[snowwhyte]

I always found it ridiculous the amount of scorn and blame the women got for being prostitutes. The judge exemplifies the obliviousness. I was thinking about it after last weeks episode when Margaret was being vilified for turning her daughters into whores. Obviously that's a terrible thing but what were her alternatives? Could they work as servants for long hours and terrible pay, still subject to the whims of the men of the house? Their mother is a notorious bawd, would any respectable house hire them? Could she try to marry them off? There weren't many opportunities for women at the time so Margaret went with what she knew and tried to find her girls a rich man to take care of them. 

[kieyra]

The guy with the glasses? The judge or whatever? I think we’re either supposed to view him as someone who might eventually understand the women’s point of view here ...

... or the show just wants me to think that, and eventually he’ll go full-on sadist when we least expect it.

Possibly I’ve been watching too much Handmaid’s Tale.

But from a sheer numbers point of view, the show is about due for another non-evil male character to join the primary cast. Mr. North can’t be the only decent man in the whole town.

Poor Betsey.

[snowwhyte]

I had a laugh when they had the John call that girl Betsy. For a second i wondered if they had just replaced the actress because aside from the blonde hair that girl did not look much like Betsy. 

I'd be willing to believe the judge might gain some compassion but since he seems to have a thing for the religious daughter and she's in a secret same sex relationship with a thief and prostitute I foresee him going full evil.

[HeySandyStrange]

13 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

I had a laugh when they had the John call that girl Betsy. For a second i wondered if they had just replaced the actress because aside from the blonde hair that girl did not look much like Betsy. 

I'd be willing to believe the judge might gain some compassion but since he seems to have a thing for the religious daughter and she's in a secret same sex relationship with a thief and prostitute I foresee him going full evil.

Regarding the judge, I hope not. I by no means want him to be a saint, but a non-evil, nuanced male character who has a bit of compassion and decency would be nice. I hope they don't have him flipping out on Amelia and Violet. In my perfect world they would find a way to make a polyamrous relationship work for them, pipe dream I know but I can dream, lol.

As I suspected, Quigley's backstory tidbit was pretty fucked up. Doesn't make me feel bad for her, but it makes sense how she can justify whoring our 10 year olds. I was grossed out when Quigley's friend was feeling up Charlie; made me wonder it that was a life long habit.

I really am curious about Lady Liv Tyler's huge secret. At first I thought maybe she was the long lost daughter Quigley mentioned giving up last season, but that doesn't really fit. Someone in the other thread mentioned a secret child, maybe a royal one. I also get a weird vibe between her brother and herself, like there is a touch of Lannister there. I can't wait to find out.

I hope both Charlotte and Lucy know what they are doing. Quigley and Fallon are two scary individuals to try to cross.

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. I was thinking about it after last weeks episode when Margaret was being vilified for turning her daughters into whores. Obviously that's a terrible thing but what were her alternatives? Could they work as servants for long hours and terrible pay, still subject to the whims of the men of the house? Their mother is a notorious bawd, would any respectable house hire them? Could she try to marry them off? There weren't many opportunities for women at the time so Margaret went with what she knew and tried to find her girls a rich man to take care of them. 

I don't think Margaret is evil because of the path she put her daughters on, but she is pretty hypocritical. She has been raging since last season about being sold by her mother and then prostituted out by Quigley as a young child, yet she turned both her daughters out at young ages, with Charlotte being sold at the grand old age of twelve to those horrible Reptons . Which I'm sure was of great financial benefit to Margaret and her ambitions at the time.  She has tried to justify to herself that she has done everything Lucy and Charlotte's own good, but for all that she wanted to make them the most independent type of women she thought they could be, she never really gave them a chance to decide for themselves about what they wanted for their lives. Charlotte imo is not wrong for calling her mother out on that. Margaret and Quigley are a bit a like in that respect; they are both deeply fucked up and are guided by the trauma that formed them, often repeating it, whether they can admit it or not. The difference is, and what makes her a flawed but still decentish person, is that Margaret seems to realize this on some level, while Quigley does not.

Edited July 21, 2018 by HeySandyStrange

[nodorothyparker]

I really hope Lucy knows what she's doing and being kept by a man who's pretty consistently creeped her out doesn't turn out badly for her.  She's been a lot more tolerable as a character this season as she seemed to become more sure of herself.  The carriage ride through the park was a hoot.

I also really liked Justice Hunt taking to trouble to wonder why all these women are prostitutes, and you could tell by Violet's answer how unusual it was for a man to even ask.  He's clearly not as confident in his ruling to have Nancy flogged as he thinks he should be, and while he's rightly skeptical that Margaret's really running a boarding house for the sick and needy, he's showing some shading that suggests maybe he's not a terrible guy.  The show could certainly use another one or two of those. 

Holy hell is Quigley's old buddy Mrs. May a piece of work.  She was seriously channeling Judi Dench in some of her more peppery roles for me and throwing her into the mix again demonstrates how deeply interconnected these characters are and how great the show is at making those connections.  Loved the two older women laughing their asses off a Charles limply insisting that he loves Emily.  If Quigley thinks she more or less seduced her father as a child, it makes a certain amount of awful sense that she wouldn't have recognized 10-year-old Margaret as an innocent.  Everything about the big night out at the pleasure gardens was fabulously done from the costuming to choreography, although apparently going to the park in the 1760s to watch the fireworks was a very different experience.  I could only laugh at how many bare asses were popping up randomly in the background, yet it was Margaret smacking Quigley across the mouth that made everybody gasp and look.

Margaret and Florence Scanwell as frenemies is fairly interesting considering that Florence spent fully half of last season standing outside Margaret's door screaming about burning in hell.  It allows both characters to be more than their proscribed roles and as Florence acknowledged is a reminder that for as hard as Margaret can sometimes be, she's still at heart a basically decent person.

As always, don't ever change, Emily Lacey.  She's a brassy too garish delight in everything she does.  Her sex-off with Charles was hilarious even as she was at least astute enough to realize somebody needed to be working to bring money into house.  At the rate they're going, Emily and Harriet could easily end up deciding to cut Charles loose as Harriet's proving more and more to be the brains behind the outfit while Emily has the notoriety and panache.  Emily pivoting from whining that she didn't want her house to be the Island of Misfit Toys to seeing the possibilities in Harriet's idea that they lean into being exactly that to be a niche kind of place was terrific.

[abbyzenn]

I am surprised at the lavish sets/costumes of this show.  That whole pleasure gardens scene must have cost a fortune.  And Mrs. May's house was beautiful and nicely furnished - I wonder how she afforded that - I get that she was Quigley's father's "friend" but was he rich?

I loved the scene with Charlotte and Mrs. May in that it gave us a view of the underdressing for those clothes.  Who ever came up with the idea of that wide thing at the hip/waist to make your skirt billow out?  During the pleasure garden scene I kept looking at Margaret's dress - well really those boobs - and wondering why those boobs didn't just finally pop out.  That dress looked terribly uncomfortable.

Another nice scene was the one between Margaret and the blind lady.  Brought out the better side of both of them.

Lady Liv's brother is totally creepy.

I still think Charlotte seems totally lost this series.

From watching this show I'm glad I didn't live back then.

[Ripley68]

I still don't get Lucy's complete turn around from terrified bunny to wily fox.  Last season she couldn't even fake a smile, now she's hand jobbing the guy who petrified her in the park while carrying on negotiations?

I too wonder at the miracle of the heaving bosoms.  They have got to be pushed up and smooshed beyond belief.

Put me on board the "please let the judge not turn out to be a mustache twirling villain."  They need to remind the audience that Margaret knows Quigly is responsible for the death of many girls to that weird society.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

22 hours ago, abbyzenn said:

I am surprised at the lavish sets/costumes of this show.  That whole pleasure gardens scene must have cost a fortune.  And Mrs. May's house was beautiful and nicely furnished - I wonder how she afforded that - I get that she was Quigley's father's "friend" but was he rich?

I loved the scene with Charlotte and Mrs. May in that it gave us a view of the underdressing for those clothes.  Who ever came up with the idea of that wide thing at the hip/waist to make your skirt billow out?  During the pleasure garden scene I kept looking at Margaret's dress - well really those boobs - and wondering why those boobs didn't just finally pop out.  That dress looked terribly uncomfortable.

Another nice scene was the one between Margaret and the blind lady.  Brought out the better side of both of them.

Lady Liv's brother is totally creepy.

Agreed on all counts! Everything about the Paradise Garden scenes was beautiful and lavish. It didn't look like they skimped on anything.

I also enjoyed seeing Charlotte half dressed. Usually we see the girls either completely dressed or barely dressed while they're with clients. It's rare to see that in between phase with all the structure underneath those dresses.

I liked that even though Mrs. Scanwell started out loathing Margaret for being a bawd, they were able to bond about being mothers and their fear about not being able to protect their daughters. I don't know that she will ever come around 100% but I think that both she and Hunt are at least beginning to understand that Margaret and the girls aren't pure evil.

Isabella's brother is super creepy. I was willing to concede that his refusal to let her handle her own money was typical patriarchal bullshit from that era, but everything else he's done creeps me out too. It makes me wonder if the secret Lydia has on her is that she had an incest baby with her brother. Maybe she's working in Lydia's house? I have no idea how old Isabella is supposed to be so I have no idea how old her incest baby would be. In real life, Liv Tyler is 41 so that's definitely old enough for her to have a daughter who's old enough to be working for Lydia. Then again, Lydia said that her secret was growing each day so maybe the kid is still pretty young? Heh, maybe I just read too many VC Andrews books growing up.

[snowwhyte]

A secret baby by the brother was also my guess. Their relationship is definitely odd and antagonistic. If there was a secret baby the question is how did Lydia come to know of it? Perhaps Liv Tyler's father had her shipped off somewhere to have the baby in secret but if he was a client of Lydia's maybe he revealed the secret at an intimate moment. I hope we find out soon.

[rollacoaster]

The treatment of and discussion of children this episode, and throughout the series is very interesting. I fear for Jacob's emotional well-being. I felt so bad for him when he was sitting alone on the steps after Nancy's flogging last episode. He has seen so many traumatic things and no one really seems to comfort him, and it was so sad when he begged his father not to go. He just seems at loose ends so often.  I was glad to see him spend some time with his dad at the pub.  guess all the women of the house look after the kids.  

Then, Mrs. May scoffing at the innocence of children and molesting Charles in front of his mother, and Lydia saying the "pleasing" her father as a child was the making of her. Breaking of her, in reality. She doesn't view herself as a victim, but a survivor, so doesn't see the ways she victimizes others. 

Seems like life is so rough that no one really thinks to shield children, especially poor children from the harsh realities. Margaret does try, in her way, and so does Harriet and Fanny. 

Also, I'm really enjoying see more people of color in the cast. London of that time was very diverse and it's great to see it portrayed for a change. 

I love Violet calling out Justice Hunt's friends hypocrisy. Hunt is getting quite an education about the realities of life for other people. Maybe he had the privilege of some sheltering as a child.

Edited August 5, 2018 by rollacoaster
additional thoughts

[aradia22]

This was a very convenient time for Justice Hunt to investigate Margaret Wells' house but I still thoroughly enjoyed seeing him thwarted and getting her sass. And he still managed to be an asshole. What about his guilt? 

I still hate Harriet. You can be an asshole and own it but you can't be an asshole and then act all superior and self-righteous. You don't get to be a brazen hussy and cold schemer and then act like you were cast out for no reason. Aside from outright villains, that's usually the type of character I hate the most. 

Again, what nonsense education did Lucy get that she doesn't know who Persephone is but Harriet knows Dido?

I like Cherry. Nell looks a bit too much like a model to be believable as a Covent Garden doxy. I don't really see them becoming regulars at Wells' house though. But she needs someone. 

I don't know why Nancy suddenly knows of Charlotte's plan but whatever. As usual, I appreciate Nancy being everyone's soundboard and talking some sense. 

I have to give it to Fallon. He knows how to play Lucy. He's toned down the creepiness and turned up the charm to make her think she's in control. Lest we forget, Sir George was constantly telling Charlotte he loved her while being vile. And Fallon is an actual murderer. But again, for someone like Lucy I can see her thinking that she's gained the upper hand with her training and newfound confidence. He's being very gentle, solicitous. Poor little fool.

I was confused. I thought Charlotte was maybe going use the soldier as a spy or as hired muscle. Not just for a tup.

Poor Betsey is in the pox house!?!

I don't remember Mr. Holland looking like James Franco last season. He reminded me more of Jon Heder. Did they change actors?

The soldier Charlotte tupped also has a bit of anachronistic gym body. Not as bad as Armitage but still distracting. 

I'm glad Jacob is still hanging out with his dad. I was worried Will had completely abandoned him. Though a bar is not the right place for him. I realize he lives in a whorehouse that's been full of murders lately but still, gambling and bar fights are not appropriate. 

I like that we had all this melodrama and NOW they're going back to the basics of how harlots get chosen for a bawdy house. 

LOL, I love Amelia and Violet and the endless double entendre.

Hannah looks adorable but very young. Squick.

Speaking of which, Mrs. May always referring to Margaret as "Little Maggie" is super creepy.

I assume that was supposed to be Vauxhall? I wondered how they would bring it to life. Somehow reading about it, I never realized how dark it would be without all the modern forms of lighting. 

Christ. In that red gown, I thought Maggie's breasts were going to pop out of her dress. How tightly did they corset the poor actress? That looks like it hurt.

I don't think it's going in this direction, but I'm down for Charlotte and Liv Tyler being our second lesbian couple of the show.

WOO! Love that Margaret just punched Lydia in the face. She's had it coming for a long time. And she knocked her down with one punch too. None of those vicious little slaps that Lydia imparted on Emily. Just one solid punch. Attagirl.

I'd feel better about Lucy going off if Nancy had given her advice more like, keep a knife strapped to your ankle. 

"I hope you punched her hard." Line of the episode.

[aradia22]

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Obviously that's a terrible thing but what were her alternatives? Could they work as servants for long hours and terrible pay, still subject to the whims of the men of the house? Their mother is a notorious bawd, would any respectable house hire them? Could she try to marry them off?

Neither Charlotte nor Lucy come across as well-educated enough to be governesses. Also, even if they hadn't been turned out, just being the daughters of Margaret Wells they wouldn't be respectable. And even if they had somehow gotten hired, they're too pretty to work in a house without the fear of being raped. I think it's a little early for the Industrial Revolution but if they were born later there'd be the option of factory work. There's selling flowers like that one girl who got kidnapped but that's more like begging. As I said in another thread, I doubt they could have made respectable matches with anyone well off enough to provide for them. Middle class means middle class respectability... basically men like Justice Hunt, if not quite as zealous. I guess there's the option of being an entertainer and just a part-time mistress but we've heard Lucy sing and she's not that talented. There's also the fact that Wells women shun marriage over earning enough money to take care of yourself. 

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Regarding the judge, I hope not. I by no means want him to be a saint, but a non-evil, nuanced male character who has a bit of compassion and decency would be nice.

I feel like Osborn and Armitage fall into that category. Mr. Holland, too. To varying degrees, of course, but in this show that's our middle ground between murdering rapists and the non-existent saints who just don't exist in the world of the other characters. 

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I also really liked Justice Hunt taking to trouble to wonder why all these women are prostitutes

I feel like this just makes him an idiot. You needed someone to tell you that people steal because the system doesn't otherwise allow them to support themselves? And it doesn't mean he deserves a cookie. I get that the culls are exploiting the women but most of the ones we've seen don't necessarily look down on them the way Hunt does. Moral reform reading is not my favorite but I also think there were a decent number of people who didn't need to talk to someone like Violet before having this realization.

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From watching this show I'm glad I didn't live back then.

Vauxhall usually sounds lovely in romance novels. Here it looked like the "crush" of people would be overwhelming. And corseted and in all those layers on a summer night with a face full of makeup, hot and gross wandering the grass in high-heeled shoes getting caught in the soft earth. It just looked like a poorly planned outdoor wedding reception where everyone was required to come in costume. No, thank you. 

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I still don't get Lucy's complete turn around from terrified bunny to wily fox.  Last season she couldn't even fake a smile, now she's hand jobbing the guy who petrified her in the park while carrying on negotiations?

I'm usually willing to go with a retcon if it makes things better. I feel like they got feedback that most of the audience was getting tired of Lucy so they just did a reset on her character.