S01.E06: Love Is the Message

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, apollonia666 said:

A language note: Transsexual (two s's) and transgender are adjectives, not nouns - so one wouldn't say "a transsexual" just like you wouldn't say "a Black." And transsexual isn't used much anymore for a variety of reasons (though we do hear it a lot in this show because of the period in which it's set). Transgender is the term used almost all of the time now. Jiggly Caliente is a transgender woman.

I know you weren't addressing me, but for what it's worth, I used the word transsexual in my post above to reflect what Patty said (which was the term used in the 80s). I hope I didn't offend anyone. I can add quote marks around it if that helps. It's always a little bit tricky when writing about things that take place in the past when different terminology was used. There's that fine line between being historically accurate and not wanting to be offensive while discussing it.

[apollonia666]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know you weren't addressing me, but for what it's worth, I used the word transsexual in my post above to reflect what Patty said (which was the term used in the 80s). I hope I didn't offend anyone. I can add quote marks around it if that helps. It's always a little bit tricky when writing about things that take place in the past when different terminology was used. There's that fine line between being historically accurate and not wanting to be offensive while discussing it.

Agreed! I think Pose is doing a pretty good job of using the language of the time in which it's set, but I do think some folks who might be new to talking about trans people are likely to mistakenly pick up outdated terms and concepts. I don't think the person I quoted was being transphobic but did feel I should explain how we generally talk about trans women now that it's been 31 years since the show is set. 

[planet17]

I don't think I have anything new or any insight to add.

I just want to highlight the importance of this show, especially after some recent news. It really does show that Hollywood doesn't give a fuck about trans people. They just want to use them as tools, but have zero interest in inclusion. It's hypocritical. It's disgusting. And it's outrageous because trans people aren't even allowed to audition to cis roles. And the few roles for trans characters, cisgender actors steal. The lack of social sensibility is insane.

Sorry for this "off-topic" post, but it's hard to see that. And I can only hope FX renews Pose. It's a good show and it's doing something historical by allowing trans people to tell their own story.

The ratings aren't so strong. I wish Pose could get to mainstream like Rupaul's Drag Race did. I can only hope for a second season now.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, planet17 said:

I don't think I have anything new or any insight to add.

I just want to highlight the importance of this show, especially after some recent news. It really does show that Hollywood doesn't give a fuck about trans people. They just want to use them as tools, but have zero interest in inclusion. It's hypocritical. It's disgusting. And it's outrageous because trans people aren't even allowed to audition to cis roles. And the few roles for trans characters, cisgender actors steal. The lack of social sensibility is insane.

Sorry for this "off-topic" post, but it's hard to see that. And I can only hope FX renews Pose. It's a good show and it's doing something historical by allowing trans people to tell their own story.

The ratings aren't so strong. I wish Pose could get to mainstream like Rupaul's Drag Race did. I can only hope for a second season now.

I agree - the fact that Pose hired trans actors instead of cisgender actors is a huge step forward. I know that there have been some moments where the acting was a little weak, but I'd rather have a relatively unknown trans actor play a trans role than have a well known cis actor play a trans role (not 100% comparable, but similarly I prefer having dancers get cast in dance roles instead of non-dancing actors who are shot from the waist up/have body doubles - I will always defend Center Stage for casting dancers in almost every major role for that reason). The fact that ScarJo is defending this like it's no big deal by saying, "But other people did it too!" is ridiculous. To quote every mom ever, "If someone  jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"

[Robert Lynch]

Off topic, but does Ryan Murphy still have control over his ACS series? I heard he is moving from FX to Netflix. Is he done with this channel?

[sugarbaker design]

American Horror Story, American Crime Story, Fued and Pose will remain on FX.  Any new material will play on Netflix.

[planet17]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree - the fact that Pose hired trans actors instead of cisgender actors is a huge step forward. I know that there have been some moments where the acting was a little weak, but I'd rather have a relatively unknown trans actor play a trans role than have a well known cis actor play a trans role (not 100% comparable, but similarly I prefer having dancers get cast in dance roles instead of non-dancing actors who are shot from the waist up/have body doubles - I will always defend Center Stage for casting dancers in almost every major role for that reason). The fact that ScarJo is defending this like it's no big deal by saying, "But other people did it too!" is ridiculous. To quote every mom ever, "If someone  jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"

Not only actors, but Pose also have trans women writing and directing. That's great. Janet Mock, who directed this episode, is the first trans woman of color to direct for TV.

And Scarlett Johasson's comment only shows she doesn't give a crap about the community. 

[ShadowHunter]

On 7/12/2018 at 10:45 AM, Robert Lynch said:

Off topic, but does Ryan Murphy still have control over his ACS series? I heard he is moving from FX to Netflix. Is he done with this channel?

He still has control. I heard he planned out some of what he wanted done already.  All his shows will be staying at FX  for now.  With AHS Season 9 will have another one of the producers take more charge though.  

[Mozelle]

OK, this episode finally made me seek out a Pose forum lol. I've been loving this show so much. Billy Porter has been magnificent, but I feel that Indya Moore is gonna be a breakout from this show. 

On 7/8/2018 at 10:23 PM, SimoneS said:

The show is so uneven. I loved that Pray Tell was featured this episode. Billy Porter was outstanding. I loved Pray and Blanca singing Home. I loved the soundtrack. Yeah, I am dating myself, but Diana Ross' I'm Coming Out and Whitesnake's Is This Love made relive my teenage years.

I was surprised by Patti/Angel/Stan. Angel showed some self-awareness. Patti stood strong and didn't cower. She didn't back down when she demanded her doctor test her or in the confrontation with Stan. He broke down, but going to Angel showed that he is finally questioning his sexuality.

James Van Beek's character is so repulsive. It is like watching Dawson's Creek twenty years later. He is exactly who I would expect a grown up Dawson to be.

ETA: Whitney Houston's You Give Good Love.

Ugh, I know! This character is Dawson's back to the future version or something. He's so damn smarmy and awful. He's the very definition of someone having a punchable face (so I wasn't mad when Stan swung on him).

Lastly, I just want to count myself among those who thought Darius was fine. Too bad he was a player.

[Scarlett45]

FYI @planet17 Pose has been renewed. 

[ShadowHunter]

I agree with a few others about the show being uneven.  Some parts are serious and sad when dealing with AIDS and then we deal with the Ball room world and it becomes campy and over the top. 

I don't mind a show with a mix of humor and drama but as I said its more campy at times then funny lol.

Plus some of the actors are good and some are not.  Billy Porter, Indya Moore, and Evan Peters are the best ones. 

On 7/13/2018 at 7:52 PM, Mozelle said:

James Van Beek's character is so repulsive. It is like watching Dawson's Creek twenty years later. He is exactly who I would expect a grown up Dawson to be

Yes. I still to this day cant tell you how happy i was that Joey didn't pick him. Not that I liked her much but I wanted Pacey to be happy. 

I do think Pose may get Emmy nominations next year. The Academy can pat themselves on the back. 

It is Interesting to see Stan comes to terms with himself.  Will it be explored? Will he snap? I hope it is something that goes somewhere.  Patty does not work so it might be harder for her to get a divorce with 2 little kids but that is a good story that could be explored. 

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I agree with a few others about the show being uneven.  Some parts are serious and sad when dealing with AIDS and then we deal with the Ball room world and it becomes campy and over the top. 

I don't mind a show with a mix of humor and drama but as I said its more campy at times then funny lol.

Plus some of the actors are good and some are not.  Billy Porter, Indya Moore, and Evan Peters are the best ones. 

Yes. I still to this day cant tell you how happy i was that Joey didn't pick him. Not that I liked her much but I wanted Pacey to be happy. 

I do think Pose may get Emmy nominations next year. The Academy can pat themselves on the back. 

It is Interesting to see Stan comes to terms with himself.  Will it be explored? Will he snap? I hope it is something that goes somewhere.  Patty does not work so it might be harder for her to get a divorce with 2 little kids but that is a good story that could be explored. 

Patty did have a career- she said in the therapist office that she would go back to work once the baby started nursery school. Now people often call the youngest “a baby” for a long while, so that may be in a year or two. If Stan & Patty decide to divorce I can see him being very stretched financially with the settlement. I don’t think Stan knows what he wants. I don’t think he hates Patty or his kids (nor do I think he blames her for her choices) but he went down the path of heteronomativity because it was expected of him.....not suggesting he isn’t straight, but why did he not try to meet a trans woman in an LGBT space while he was single and unattached?!! He’s obviously been thinking on it for a while. There’s a way to be authentic without being the “family man” or the “douche who has a trans woman on retainer ala Chris Meloni”(will we ever learn that characters name?!!)

[Machiabelly]

On 11/07/2018 at 7:46 PM, planet17 said:

I don't think I have anything new or any insight to add.

I just want to highlight the importance of this show, especially after some recent news. It really does show that Hollywood doesn't give a fuck about trans people. They just want to use them as tools, but have zero interest in inclusion. It's hypocritical. It's disgusting. And it's outrageous because trans people aren't even allowed to audition to cis roles. And the few roles for trans characters, cisgender actors steal. The lack of social sensibility is insane.

Sorry for this "off-topic" post, but it's hard to see that. And I can only hope FX renews Pose. It's a good show and it's doing something historical by allowing trans people to tell their own story.

The ratings aren't so strong. I wish Pose could get to mainstream like Rupaul's Drag Race did. I can only hope for a second season now.

On the bright side she has dropped the role and apologized since that article. She thanked the LGBTQ community and admitted her ignorance at the time. She has pledged to do better personally and with her production company. 

 

So...one mind changed...hopefully. 

[ShadowHunter]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Patty did have a career- she said in the therapist office that she would go back to work once the baby started nursery school. Now people often call the youngest “a baby” for a long while, so that may be in a year or two. If Stan & Patty decide to divorce I can see him being very stretched financially with the settlement. I don’t think Stan knows what he wants. I don’t think he hates Patty or his kids (nor do I think he blames her for her choices) but he went down the path of heteronomativity because it was expected of him.....not suggesting he isn’t straight, but why did he not try to meet a trans woman in an LGBT space while he was single and unattached?!! He’s obviously been thinking on it for a while. There’s a way to be authentic without being the “family man” or the “douche who has a trans woman on retainer ala Chris Meloni”(will we ever learn that characters name?!!)

Yes she said that. I meant more for dramatic reasons it could take her a long time to find a job. Agree sometimes it seems like Stan does love Patty but he is a mess. 

[TrininisaScorp]

I love this show.  It can be uneven, and sometimes the acting is off, but damn if I'm not pulled in every single show.  I love all of these characters, and I care about them.  I was so excited for Papi's win!  I was so happy for Blanca to get her confidence back.  I was so pleased how Angel handled herself with Patty.  

I think Van Der Beek's character, the embodiment of 80s yuppy privilege and excess, is purposeful in how AWFUL he is.   That he is what he is and that he works for who he works stands as a foil for our family characters in the Ball world. 

Billy Porter is a damn national treasure.  Give that man ALL the awards and all the roles.  He is fabulous in this role, and he broke my heart in this episode.  His pain, his anger, his sadness, his profound grief and loss.  But, the singing.  My god.  I wept at his solo and the duet.  

[Shadowcat2576]

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think Stan knows what he wants. I don’t think he hates Patty or his kids (nor do I think he blames her for her choices) but he went down the path of heteronomativity because it was expected of him.....not suggesting he isn’t straight, but why did he not try to meet a trans woman in an LGBT space while he was single and unattached?!! He’s obviously been thinking on it for a while. There’s a way to be authentic without being the “family man” or the “douche who has a trans woman on retainer ala Chris Meloni”(will we ever learn that characters name?!!)

We also have to remember that Pose is set 30 years ago. Stan is very obsessed with the image he feels he needs to portray. Even if Stan is straight (which until they show him having sex or being attracted to a man, I think he is) someone like Angel does not fit with the image he wants the world to see. Even today, getting most people to understand that a man that is in a relationship with a transgender woman can be straight is very hard. In 1987 it would have been impossible, and I imagine being thought of as gay would be pretty much the end of a career in NYC high finance.

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, Shadowcat2576 said:

We also have to remember that Pose is set 30 years ago. Stan is very obsessed with the image he feels he needs to portray. Even if Stan is straight (which until they show him having sex or being attracted to a man, I think he is) someone like Angel does not fit with the image he wants the world to see. Even today, getting most people to understand that a man that is in a relationship with a transgender woman can be straight is very hard. In 1987 it would have been impossible, and I imagine being thought of as gay would be pretty much the end of a career in NYC high finance.

Yes thank you for reminding me of that. I just don’t want to see Patty or Angel get hurt because Stan wants things both ways.

But why does anyone need to know that Angel is trans? Of all the women she looks the most Cis to me, just very slim. I understand him wanting to keep his job and security, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to lie and cheat on Patty OR treat Angel as a play thing. Patty is upset (rightfully so) but I don’t think she would out him, 1. She doesn’t seem like the cruel type, 2. That would only hurt her kids (if he suffered financially) and social embarrassment for her. 

[Shadowcat2576]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes thank you for reminding me of that. I just don’t want to see Patty or Angel get hurt because Stan wants things both ways.

But why does anyone need to know that Angel is trans? Of all the women she looks the most Cis to me, just very slim. I understand him wanting to keep his job and security, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to lie and cheat on Patty OR treat Angel as a play thing. Patty is upset (rightfully so) but I don’t think she would out him, 1. She doesn’t seem like the cruel type, 2. That would only hurt her kids (if he suffered financially) and social embarrassment for her. 

Oh I adore both Angel and Patty and would love to see them form a friendship and leave Stan behind.

 

Does anyone have to know Angel is trans, no, but that's also not unfortunately the only thing about her that I doubt fits in Stan's world. No, Stan shouldn't lie or cheat on Patty, and some of behavior towards Angel is bad too. Personally, I think Angel's expectations are part of the problem. In many ways as the kept mistress, she is a plaything. Now, that doesn't mean that feelings aren't involved or real, but situational awareness is a thing.

 

As far as the ladies' looks, I agree, I wish I looked nearly as good. I think Angel and Blanca "pass" the best. Electra is stunning but her height, style and overall demeanor hurt her. To me, Candy passes the least, but I think that's part of her character, and I'm sure the actress is beautiful.

[DrSparkles]

On 7/9/2018 at 6:31 PM, Red Bridey said:

Why do I put myself through this every week?  I am just a regular woman who lived through the AIDS years.  I lost four people I knew, young beautiful men and I just cry and cry and cry remembering them and missing them.

Girl, same.

[aradia22]

Oh, boy. I tried to not roll my eyes at Patty and Angel's chat in the diner but... whew, that was rough. Who wrote that dreck? I will give them the line "if you want to see who I am that's the last place you should look" but the rest of that attempt at bonding/feminism fell super flat. I can deal with flat acting but I can't deal with flat acting and heavy handed writing. 

That said, the rest of the episode was great. There's a good show in here and this episode showed that if they could just step up the acting, they could find it. I know Pray Tell can't be the focus every week but my God, was it a nice change to let Billy Porter shine. His solo song and duet with MJ were great. And his final conversation with Costas really got me. I cried. 

On the singing, I've heard MJ live before. She's clearly not as trained as Billy Porter but I think maybe she's gotten better. That or they worked some magic with autotune. 

Everything with Stan continues to bore me. Well, stuff with Angel can work. But anything with Kate Mara or James van der Beek always feels like it's pulling us away from the real show and I do not care. I did appreciate that Patty took him to a therapist to mediate that confrontation and as much as the show is calling him out for behaving badly it's not necessarily shaming him for being attracted to Angel so much as having an extramarital affair. I think they're stepping carefully there and it's pretty well done.

According to the opening credits, this episode was directed by Janet Mock. I haven't been paying much attention but from this one episode, I'd guess she's good at working with actors since this was more emotional than most episodes have been. But the camera angles and framing were kind of a mess. There were a lot of shots where the framing was slightly off and other times where I felt the direction of someone who is unfamiliar with film language and what certain angles and shots convey. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by aradia22