The Blotter Presents

[SanLynn]

Sorry about my last post, just realized I can't delete and didn't see originally that Pigs-in-Space's comment had already been adressed.

I found this podcast endlessly fascinating. I've been interested in Jonestown for awhile and no one has really talked about the Guyana Tragedy movie. Powers Boothe was scarily amazing in that film. I've always liked him but I can definitely see why he won an Emmy for that work.

[Cosmic Muffin]

A friend of mine moved in with his boyfriend about 15 years ago. Their home was purchased by his boyfriend's late partner, who had died at home, and the boyfriend never cleaned any of his later partner's stuff out of the house. The late boyfriend had purchased the house when the family of four that owned it went off to Jonestown and perished. And no one ever cleaned out their stuff.

So. a couple years ago when the boyfriend retired and they sold the house and moved, they had to go through a ton of really depressing stuff and make decisions about what to do with it. The family that went to Jonestown had all their kids report cards and school pictures, all their papers for the parents degrees and their professional lives, their wedding album. I think they ended up hiring someone to toss most of it.

Boyfriend is something of a hoarder, and my friend never felt like he could go through this stuff, nor did he want to. I just think that having all that tragic stuff in the basement and wherever would have a bad energy for the occupants. Whether they moved or not, I'd glad they aren't living with all that stuff belonging to the dead.

I just thought I'd put this here...

[Primetimer]

Chris Huff and Sarah D. Bunting on Deadly Women, and a Designing Women star as America's most notorious female serial killer.

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[Stowaway]

I'm curious about all the references (especially in Deadly Women) to Wuornos being "The Monster." Was that a term the media applied to her before the 2003 film? My vague memory of the movie is that the title was an "ooh, I see what you did there," in that it actually came from a carnival ride or something.

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey, now. You'd be surprised at the number of "Iowa church ladies" who have progressive opinions, Chris Huff!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

@Stowaway, I wondered about that too; something about their constant use of it rang false to me. It's like if a show insisted Ted Bundy was known as The Butcher Of Boulder -- "cute," but he...wasn't.

[Primetimer]

Crime Writers On's Toby Ball returns to discuss two (pretty awful) takes on America's first serial killer.

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[maxineofarc]

I actually like the theory that there wasn't even one single Jack the Ripper, just a series of unrelated crimes and somebody writing letters who may or may not have had anything to do with it. As for Holmes, he almost certainly was not America's first serial killer; they just didn't really have much apparatus in place for tracking such things for a long time, so extremely probably cases that appeared to be unrelated were not, particularly in cases where a killer may have traveled between states and jurisdictions.

But on topic: I already wasn't planning to watch these, because the idea that Holmes had anything to do with Jack the Ripper is so obviously ludicrous on its face (Holmes's methodical MO alone is so INCREDIBLY far off from the nearly public throat cutting and mutilations that characterize the Ripper cases), but the sound design just in your clips made me laugh so hard I cannot with this. Also I wish I had a cool name like "Amaryllis Fox."

Edited July 12, 2017 by maxineofarc

[EAG46]

I think Holmes/Mudgett got into killing for the money. And he was a greedy fucker too; insurance fraud on the victims, then selling their skeletons as specimens. DAMN. Jack the Ripper didn't get any fiscal gain out of killing his victims. And his great-great-grandson is an idiot. Maxineofarc has some good theories of her(?) own down there. *points*

[swimmyfish]

Holmes' great-great-grandson seems curiously unbothered at the idea that his great-great-grandfather was a monstrous killer. I suppose the same can be said of the people who suddenly realize their father was the Zodiac killer and need to publish a book on it, but I feel like that's the sort of thing you'd want to keep secret? Or, at least, maybe reveal to the authorities so they can investigate and perhaps solve the crimes? Just the instinct to tell the world and maybe profit from it, is so upsetting - what a terrible combination of desperation and self-involvement these people must be.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

^ I thought the same thing re: Mudgett -- that there's a faint unseemliness to his need to leverage that connection -- but as someone who did a whole segment on John Bunting on the pod, I can't really throw stones. Heh. 

 

And ugh, thank you for mentioning the Zodiac people. Not as irritating to me for some reason as the "I hid in Dad's car one day and saw him murder the Black Dahlia" ladies (and they're always ladies, what's up with that), but up there.

[Naga]

Have you seen the ID series A Crime to Remember? The first three seasons are streaming on Hulu, and (particularly for ID) is very well done in pacing and production. It looks at crimes from further back than most, generally 1960s but some as early as the 30s.

ETA: The framing device of narration by someone "who was there" like a neighbor or friend is pointless, but I think the show is still better than many.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Naga
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[MCMLXXVII]

I'd figure the Black Dahlia writers' fathers were legitimately abusive, so there's some misplaced identification with the victim?  

 

Same way how it's almost always guys with musical aspirations who pop out of the woodwork claiming to be the secret child of Elvis, MJ, Prince, etc. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

^ I thought the same thing re: Mudgett -- that there's a faint unseemliness to his need to leverage that connection -- but as someone who did a whole segment on John Bunting on the pod, I can't really throw stones. Heh. 

I'm immediately writing off to various true crime networks to set up the John Bunting special with Sarah as a talking head.  Your chyron will say: "Sarah Bunting: Person with no official Expertise, but has same Last Name as Killer." 

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But on topic: I already wasn't planning to watch these, because the idea that Holmes had anything to do with Jack the Ripper is so obviously ludicrous on its face (Holmes's methodical MO alone is so INCREDIBLY far off from the nearly public throat cutting and mutilations that characterize the Ripper cases), but the sound design just in your clips made me laugh so hard I cannot with this.

 

  It's such a weird theory.  My understanding is that Holmes' MO was mostly about murdering people to scam money in the Midwest.  Why would he suddenly go to London and start randomly murdering hookers?  It's kind of like when you see Shirley Temple in one of her adult roles.  It just doesn't work.       

Edited July 14, 2017 by txhorns79

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Hey, I'm as qualified as some of the talking-head "experts" you see on these shows. hee.

[MCMLXXVII]

19 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It's such a weird theory.  My understanding is that Holmes' MO was mostly about murdering people to scam money in the Midwest.  Why would he suddenly go to London and start randomly murdering hookers?  It's kind of like when you see Shirley Temple in one her adult roles.  It just doesn't work.       

Maybe it's like Twin Peaks where Evil Bob possessed Holmes and then jumped into Jack the  Ripper or vice-versa when they unknowingly crossed paths. Heh.

[maxineofarc]

7 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

And ugh, thank you for mentioning the Zodiac people. Not as irritating to me for some reason as the "I hid in Dad's car one day and saw him murder the Black Dahlia" ladies (and they're always ladies, what's up with that), but up there.

There is Steve Hodel, who had his book come out a few years ago accusing HIS father, who was assuredly Not A Nice Person and very possibly killed SOME people. Then again, Steve Hodel also thinks his father was the Zodiac killer.

On 7/12/2017 at 0:18 PM, EAG46 said:

I think Holmes/Mudgett got into killing for the money. And he was a greedy fucker too; insurance fraud on the victims, then selling their skeletons as specimens. DAMN. Jack the Ripper didn't get any fiscal gain out of killing his victims. And his great-great-grandson is an idiot. Maxineofarc has some good theories of her(?) own down there. *points*

He might have gotten into it for the money, but damn if he didn't SUPER COMMIT to the murdering. I'm morbid as hell and I've got a pretty strong stomach, but Holmes makes my skin crawl. I haven't read "Devil in the White City" yet, partly for that reason, but I'd be interested to see if it devotes a lot of space to the trial and media sensation- that interests me, especially since the newspapers over in England (where H.H. Holmes was not) had more or less invented the sensation of Jack the Ripper not long prior.

Edited July 13, 2017 by maxineofarc

[txhorns79]

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Hey, I'm as qualified as some of the talking-head "experts" you see on these shows. hee.

Hee!  Mine would say: "Txhorns79: Watches Television."

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Maybe it's like Twin Peaks where Evil Bob possessed Holmes and then jumped into Jack the  Ripper or vice-versa when they unknowingly crossed paths. Heh.

 

I feel like that's where the show will need to go to make this theory work.  It makes as much sense as saying Queen Victoria was off murdering hookers as a way to cope with the decades old loss of her husband. 

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, MCMLXXVII said:

Maybe it's like Twin Peaks where Evil Bob possessed Holmes and then jumped into Jack the  Ripper or vice-versa when they unknowingly crossed paths.

The 60s documentary series(!) Star Trek conclusively showed that Jack the Ripper was in fact an alien that hated women and went around possessing men to kill them in the episode Wolf in the Fold. Of course, Babylon 5 tells it differently (Jack stopped killing because he was abducted by the Vorlons) in its episode Comes the Inquisitor. From the discussion, it seemed that either story was about as plausible!

[Susie Derkins]

  Quote

Hey, I'm as qualified as some of the talking-head "experts" you see on these shows. hee.

Hee!  Mine would say: "Txhorns79: Watches Television."

  Quote

Maybe it's like Twin Peaks where Evil Bob possessed Holmes and then jumped into Jack the  Ripper or vice-versa when they unknowingly crossed paths. Heh.

 

I feel like that's where the show will need to go to make this theory work.  It makes as much sense as saying Queen Victoria was off murdering hookers as a way to cope with the decades old loss of her husband. 

I'd watch your murder queen show.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I'll check it out, thanks!

[Naga]

I tried to watch the Netflix one last year, and quit 5 minutes in. Everything about it was bad. Recorded the first ep of American Ripper, but deleted without watching after listening to the pod.

Devil in the White City was a good book, and I think that you were correct that placing Holmes in that context helps. Not only was it Chicago at the turn of the century, but all these people flooding into the city to work at/experience the World's Fair gave him the opportunity to do what he did more successfully than he might have been able to otherwise. I think the book also benefits from the fact that it isn't entirely focused on Holmes, giving you a break from the ick factor of what he did. Although, as an architect, I'm much more inclined to find the design and construction aspects of both the Fair and his "murder castle" much more interesting.

As far as the "America's first serial killer" title goes, I read a book called The Midnight Assassin which looked at a series of murders in Austin, TX in 1884-85. And of course newspapers back then tried to tie that to Jack the Ripper as well, saying he left Austin for London. At least that one fits a bit better with the whole organized/disorganized profile.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Coming up on TBP:

 

- 7/19 Dan Patrick Brady returns for THE JURY SPEAKS and LIVE P.D.

- 7/26 Monty Ashley on two by Joe Berlinger, GONE (on Spike) and THE SYSTEM (coming to Sundance Now 7/27; available on YouTube now)

- 8/2 TBD and probably some Son Of Sam content

[Primetimer]

Dan Patrick Brady 'returns' (to his...own couch? just go with it) to render a verdict on two perspectives on the system.

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[SanLynn]

Some of the LivePD segment cracked me up. Some of your annoyances are some of the things I enjoy but for the most part we're definitely on the same page. That speed chase/father with child in the car was SO disturbing! I also really appreciated the larger discussion you had around that incident.

Chris Mastrianni (the cop who did the subduing) and Kevin Lawrence (the cop in the clip) when they talked about it really brought home the seriousness of the incident. Not that you didn't know that from watching the chase but to hear those details.... it was very moving.

Regarding Arizona, that officer with the thumb print is James Casey. He actually was shot in the line of duty several years back too. He seems to get all the really interesting stops. Some of the ones he's had have been really crazy.

Side note: that Jeffersonville cop is one of my favorites even though I'm not sure what his name is yet (he's a little new to me). I love watching him! And his German Shepherd.

I was waiting for you to bring up the Cum Inn in Spokane! That made me laugh so hard! But I do somewhat agree with you about the stops with any sort of sex traffic, the tone in the studio just seems different.

I have never seen a lady in the studio either as far as the commentary team. I do see some in the production room but I think they would benefit from bringing in some of the ladies we see working the towns. Like that sheriff from Spokane. I'd love to see her on the show.

Not sure I'll check out the Jury Speaks or maybe I'll just watch the Robert Durst one. Out of all the episodes you mentioned that verdict is the most interesting to me.

[swimmyfish]

This was an interesting episode. I don't know that I would tune in to either program, but I appreciated the thoughtful discussion of the pros & cons (as it were) of each premise. It does seem like most of America, myself included, needs a better understanding of what actually happens in a trial, and how a jury can reach a verdict that contradicts what seems so obvious to the public. Maybe I'll check out the Durst episode* - beyond Aphrodite Jones (who I actually don't know anything about, but sounded unpleasant in the clips on the podcast) the Michael Jackson case just makes me so sad, and Zimmerman, I'll just say I've had enough of.  For Durst, I didn't find that "What did I do? Killed them all, of course," to be quite so damning as everyone else; I think getting insight from a trial well before that could be interesting.


*Durstisode? No, I should probably leave that sort of thing to the professionals.

[MCMLXXVII]

Just watched this. Really disturbing how the family saw this coming, but no one really stepped in to alter the course of events.

If nothing else Gypsy was smart enough to find "that guy" who goes for the damsel in distress, so...well-played I guess?

The boyfriend goes to trial in December.

http://www.kspr.com/content/news/Godejohn-jury-trial-430379753.html

[veronicamers]

Sarah, are you ever correct about the desire that overtakes while on jury duty to just get to the end of it already. I've sat on multiple juries (thank you District of Columbia for your many courts and limited jury pool) and the experiences have ranged from quite straightforward/manageable to excruciating tension-filled nightmare. Juries are under a lot of pressure and in these high profile cases, they don't see the same evidence/analysis that an outsider observer does. Often I think they are unfairly maligned for the verdicts they reach. I certainly want to check out the Durst episode and probably the Zimmerman one as well. A more recent jury I would be interested in hearing more from is the Justin Ross Harris (baby left in a car outside Atlanta) one.

As to Ms. Aphrodite Jones, I recently read her book on the San Francisco dog mauling case per previous Blotter episode recommendation and while it didn't raise my esteem for her too much I at least thought she did an okay job. But after hearing y'all discuss her on the podcast I'm back to thinking she's a hack.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

*Durstisode? No, I should probably leave that sort of thing to the professionals.

That's where I'd have gone with it.

[swimmyfish]

This may have already come up, but in finding who Aphrodite Jones is after the most recent episode, I discovered that her book The Perfect Murder was turned into a movie on Lifetime, starring Treat Williams, called The Staircase Murders. It will surely be upsetting to see Dr. Andy Brown as a murderer, but a Staircase head-to-head could be interesting?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

...WOW. That is something to contemplate, for sure, and I definitely need to revisit The Staircase.

[Primetimer]

Monty Ashley and Sarah D. Bunting on two Joe Berlinger projects, serial-killer theories, and network-note narration.

View the full article

[CUBuckeye]

So Berlinger is the anti-Nancy Grace re;Guilt of defendant?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Or trustworthiness of defendant, at any rate, but yeah, good comparison. 

[FormerMod-a1]

A&E Network to Premiere Documentary Series "The Murder of Laci Peterson" on Tuesday, August 15 

Link

[unlfan03]

Then there is the other Peterson Case - ID is doing a special event on Drew Peterson at the end of Aug. It reminds me of a true "dad joke" my dad told around the time of the two cases were in the news constantly. "The worse thing your daughter could tell you. Daddy I met a great guy he's a widower and his last name is Peterson."

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Where do I sign the petition to get a new Investigation Discovery show: titled  "Don't @ Me  with Sarah D. Bunting"?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I don't know how we're going to choose amongst all the Lifetime-y movies made about both...so we might just not bother, because Kim Reed's back for our 8/16 ep and she'll be bringing some more Six Deg-Reeds (sorry, talk about a dad joke) Of Separation facts.

 

Upcoming sked, subject to some change:

8/9 Eve's back to talk Zodiac

8/16 Kim on Laci Peterson, hometown crime

8/23 Al Lowe onNatalee Holloway: Case Closed or whatever it's called

8/30 preview of Biggie Smalls docu on BIO with my Mark And Sarah Talk About Songs co-jefe, Mark Blankenship**

 

** I've been trying to find any crime-show segment about the murder of George Rose. No luck so far but if y'all know for sure that, say, 20/20 did a segment on his death, please leave me a link.

 

If you guys see any interesting (or so-bad-they're-good) shows coming up for fall, leave me a note here! I also welcome your suggestions for legendary vintage miniserieseses for Cold Case.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I'm Sarah D. Bunting and I @pprove this message.

[Primetimer]

Lani Diane Rich and Sarah D. Bunting examine three Son Of Sam-related properties, and the struggle to control a narrative.

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[Sarah D. Bunting]

PS randomly, Lani and I both show up on These Are Their Stories's wrap-up of their first season of L&O pods, so if you want to clap an ear on that for some fictional crime, it's here: http://www.lawandorderpodcast.com/podcast-episodes/

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Yipes.   As if The Keepers wasn't heavy enough already, the most recent Real Crime Profile Ep discussing The Keepers is super intense.   Has anyone else been listening to it?  

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I took a break from that one because the self-righteousness was getting a bit thick for me, even though I was really into their chosen topics (i.e., the Robin Hood Hills/WM3 stuff). Should I go back to it? I respect Clemente's experience, but if he's going to be getting in Twitter fights with Rebecca Lavoie I'm not sure I have time for that narrishkeit.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

I'm also a little frustrated that they've been spending so much time on outrage and less time on the interesting processy stuff.  (Not that advocacy isn't a good thing, but it's not really adding much to say: "Child molesters and murders are shitty people and I'm mad about it!!)

That being said, on the latest pod about The Keepers, Clemente told the story of being molested by a priest at his Catholic elementary/middle school.   It basically played out like so many of those stories do--he was made to feel like it was his fault, the priest got to keep molesting, etc.   His general rageyness over some stuff makes more sense now.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Agree re: outrage-to-process ratio, but I'll check that ep out this weekend anyway.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

This one is mostly outrage, but it's kind of hypnotic.  

In any event, the episode before that on The Keepers has some decent process/analysis that was more of a return to the OJ/Robin Hood Hills theory of the crime stuff.

[EAG46]

It's always a sad case when someone ends up having a more stable and healthier life in prison than out of it.  I have severe doubts about the US prison system but I hope Gypsy can get some sort of psychological counseling while behind bars.

[helent]

That tv movie sounds hilarious. Your description of the plot makes me think of some student-film level deep story where we follow an ordinary person around getting a slice of life-style look at them, and then at the very end they walk into a building, the camera pulls back, and IT'S THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE, oh shit! "'Cause the guy who caught the Son of Sam was just a guy, you know?"

[txhorns79]

I know you mentioned Summer of Sam in the podcast, but I didn't think the movie itself was that great.  I'm not going to pretend that 1970s New York was wonderful, but I do think people tend to overstate the depths to which it had sunk during that period.  I mean, The Warriors is fiction!  Gangs didn't really try to out camp one another with matching outfits and elaborate make up jobs. 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I think it's underrated -- nobody serves NYC sweltering in the summer like Spike Lee -- but also self-indulgent (the Who sequence with the dummy). I also think it's hard to put together a portrayal of that period that acknowledges the state of things without yawing too far into apocalyptic hellscape.