S01.E08: Desperate Souls

[formerlyfreedom]

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Regina and Mr. Gold play dirty politics and take opposite sides when Emma runs for a coveted Storybrooke public office against Sidney. Meanwhile, back in the fairytale world that was, Rumplestiltskin tries to track down the ultimate power source in order to help his son avert the horrors of a meaningless war.

[daxx]

Rewatch doesn’t change my opinion that Rumple was always power hungry. He could have just ordered the Dark One to send them far away from that place and set them up with wealth and a place to live. But no, he fully intended to take that power based on the discussion with Bae when he was planning the theft. The fact he had no qualms about setting a castle on fire, potentially filled with people doesn’t endear him to me either.

i do like that Gold manipulated Emma so smoothly, first by hiding his involvement with the fire so poorly, then pushing her to out him in public right before the vote.

Yes Regina, he’s a superlative enemy, but he needs Emma on his side you doofus.

[profdanglais]

When Rumple stabbed Zoso, and then he was all "oh, noes, what do I do now?" I couldn't help thinking 

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well, obviously, you'll now be transported to Camelot where you'll emerge from some sort of manhole thingy covered in crude oil and have all the other dark ones in your head helping you out. Oh, wait. They haven't made that rubbish up yet. I guess you'll just go all sparkly and evil then. 

Rumple really played Emma like a violin, didn't he? 

I still love Baelfire. He's so cute. I refuse to accept that he 

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turns into Neal

Also, 

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this is one situation where the later developments don't in any way clash with the way a story is presented initially. Rumple's face when he tells Bae that his mother is dead, it is perfectly believable that he's covering up the truth that she's run off with pirates. Although, I'm not sure we ever established whether Rumple knew she went voluntarily at that time or if he thinks Hook forced her. 

[KingOfHearts]

This episode carries the tradition of revealing aspects of Emma's character without resorting to flashbacks of her past. It draws an interesting loose parallel between her and Rumple. I really miss this style of subtle writing, the kind the writers did before they started hitting their viewers on the head with a sledge hammer. Emma's desire to be a hero in Henry's life is a major factor in their relationship, which makes this episode so important. It tells you why Emma is staying in Storybrooke beyond duking it out with Regina. 

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You can't feel sympathy for Rumple when he could've moved to another village and probably avoided the child enlistment altogether. He was "friendless" and "lame" because of his own actions. You know why he doesn't have a wife to cling to? Because he sold off their second born and neglected her needs. You know why he's crippled? Because he injured himself to avoid fighting in a war he voluntarily signed up for. He's not some poor villager with bad luck.

Edited June 23, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[companionenvy]

I love this episode so much. IMO, early seasons Rumple really was a complex character. He makes the wrong choices here, but his situation - self inflicted as parts of it may be -- is inherently sympathetic, and you can see how he's able to rationalize what he's doing. Plus, his first abuse of power as the DO - humiliating the officer who had humiliated him -- does have a sort of justice to it. It isn't nice, but it is also understandable. One of the best scenes, I think, is when he's explaining to Bae that becoming the DO will let him save all the children, not just Bae. On one hand, he's actually right, although the same effect could be achieved by forcing Zoso to end the war. On the other, it is a manipulative attempt to appeal to Bae's more acute sense of ethics. But the subtlest element is that it isn't clear to me whether or not Rumple is, to some extent, buying into his own manipulation, and actually seeing himself as heroic when his real motivation is, I think is far more selfish; as far as the war is concerned, he really only cares about Bae, and wants to be DO so that he doesn't have to be afraid anymore. 

I'm also struck by the parallel being drawn between him and Emma: while Henry isn't actually unduly troubled to find out that Emma had been in prison when he was born, both Rumple and Emma want to be heroes for sons who have been given reason to doubt them. Whatever Gold's other motives are, that parallel suggests to me that there may be a level at which he actually sympathizes with Emma re: Henry, and wants this relatively underprivileged ex-con and foster kid to win out over rich, stylish Regina. 

[Shanna Marie]

I don't know if it was because I watched two episodes in a row and it was getting late, but I found myself drifting off and losing interest midway through. I guess I'm not all that interested in Rumple, and it's really hard for me to take Regina at this part of the series. Her acting all victimy about Graham when she was the one who killed him makes her very slappable.

Bae really doesn't have very strong self-preservation instincts. Here, he knows they're drafting kids when they turn 14, but he spouts off to brag of his age to the soldier, then goes on to tell him when his birthday is. I guess it's consistent with

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child Bae petting a poisonous snake and getting bit and adult Neal using dark magic to raise the Dark One even when he's been told that it's a trap.

 

14 hours ago, daxx said:

Yes Regina, he’s a superlative enemy, but he needs Emma on his side you doofus.

That's the saving grace of the episode for me, that Regina is being all smug about Emma having Gold as her enemy while being utterly unaware that the whole thing was his plan.

8 hours ago, profdanglais said:

 

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this is one situation where the later developments don't in any way clash with the way a story is presented initially. Rumple's face when he tells Bae that his mother is dead, it is perfectly believable that he's covering up the truth that she's run off with pirates. Although, I'm not sure we ever established whether Rumple knew she went voluntarily at that time or if he thinks Hook forced her. 

 

 

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As I recall, when Dark One Rumple ran into Killian, he tried to kill him because he believed that Killian had kidnapped and killed Milah. Killian was going along with it, I guess to protect Milah, until Milah showed herself to prove she was alive, and that's when she confessed that she ran away with Killian because they were in love. So I think at this time, Rumple really believed all the stuff Killian told him when Rumple came to his ship and believed Killian took her and killed her. The gray area is whether he believed she tried to run off with pirates, only to be victimized by them, or whether he believed she was kidnapped.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Shanna Marie

[Camera One]

This is another one of those episodes that I didn't have a good impression of the first time around, so I'm curious if this has changed.  I remember being engaged by the flashback, but found the present-day plotline weak and frustrating.  Part of it was anticipation of something big happening after the winter cliffhanger and then basically getting this reset.  I'm swamped with work this weekend so I may have to wait a few days before rewatching this one, though I might I take a break later tonight to watch the one before this.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I liked this episode more on second watch.  Knowing ahead of time that we weren't going to get much follow-up on Graham's death allowed me to enjoy what there was.  I had forgotten there were some good conversations, like between Emma and Mary Margaret.  Gold's demeanor is amusing, especially his little asides like "Well, it is my shop" when Emma called for him and on her second visit "Loads of visitors today!"  

Emma was still actively fighting against Regina, which was nice and active.  I must say I momentary wished that Emma didn't save Regina in the fire.  

I did feel badly for Rumple in the flashback.  Zoso was clearly trying to get him angry.  Though it was a little ridiculous that he was more afraid of commanding The Dark One than he was killing him.  I'm not sure how cowardly Rumple was supposed to be.  It wasn't cowardly to walk into a fortress on fire.  

I remember being disappointed Rumple's kindness towards the beggar backfired.  This episode's opening scene with the girl being taken away to be a soldier reinforced how the Enchanted Forest really sucked.  

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Henry said out right that Regina killed Graham.  And he saw the evil smile Regina had when it seemed like Emma was going to lose the election.  It's sad how when he was younger, he actually understood that evil doesn't play fair.  

Emma said they were setting up the "back room" of Granny's for the victory party. 

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We never saw the back room, ever.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

I did like this episode. I bought Rumple's desperation in the past to save his son. In the present I liked how he tried to get Emma to take something and he really seem interested helping Emma bond with her son. I liked Rumple helping Emma. At the time I know he had his reasons which I didn't know. But I always thought until season four that he liked Emma. I'm not sure I would have saved Regina either. She's been a bitch up to this point but also we knew she murdered Graham. So its not really fun to watch her being saved. Or her acting like a grieving person. Telling Emma she had no right. No, Regina, your the one who has no right. You fucking murdered him because he broke up with you. You are horrible person and I still can't believe she not only gets away with it but Emma's forced to end up thinking this person is her friend. Someone she begs to be friends with. I can't believe no one realized Regina murdered Graham after the Curse was broken and I was really sad when the episode aired that Emma didn't start a secret investigation into Graham's death. 

Henry's reaction to Graham's death got to me then. Poor kid he's been talking about Curses and trying to get someone to listen to him and believe for so long. One finally does and Regina murders him. And he knew she killed him. He wanted to stop Operation Cobra because he was scared Regina would kill Emma. He's another victim of Regina's that never gets justice either. He knew his mom was murderer. How could he not be scared by that? He knew the Queen took his heart so Graham had no choice. But was he ever scared his mom might do that to him? She already tried to gaslight him, try to convince his shrink to crush him and arrange for Emma to overhear their talk. He learned he was right. There Curse was real and Regina would murder to keep it going. Also in this episode she has no qualms in him learning he was born in prison. He really should have been messed up for years. Regina really should have had to really work to earn his trust back.  

I love Emma and Snow's talk back stage and Emma's worried about having a place in Henry's life and really wanting to show him that Good can win.   

[Rumsy4]

This was a good episode. Coherent, and not retconned into oblivion.

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Except for the Dark One stuff, of course. I wanted Clippy!Zoso to appear when freshly minted DO-Rumple was crying for him to come back. Like George Lucas re-editing the OT force ghosts at the end of Return of the Jedi. Maybe A&E should release a 10th anniversary edition with all the retcons fixed. 

For some reason, I remembered some details wrong. I didn't remember that Rumple knew from that start that killing the DO would turn him into the DO. So, I felt less sympathetic to him in the rewatch, especially when he made Bae complicit in the arson. And what kind of an idiot walks into a burning fortress wearing a robe? I guess plot-armor saved him.

Poor people really get screwed over in the EF, don't they? 

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I felt really bad for him when he implied that growing up with Regina might have scarred him for life. I guess that explains why Henry turned into a little shit. It made me so mad that Henry actually figured out that Regina must have killed Graham. But he never brings it up post-curse. 

Also, here he is sad that good can never defeat evil because they have to play fair. In later seasons, he wields this maxim against Emma and Snow like a weapon. 

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love Emma and Snow's talk back stage and Emma's worried about having a place in Henry's life and really wanting to show him that Good can win.   

It's funny how the Evil Queen gets crowned the Good Queen of all the Realms at the end of the Show. Emma was right about one thing. Henry never cared about her other than as a hero and a savior.

Poor Bae. I really loved that kid!

Edited June 27, 2018 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

I love early seasons Rumple/Gold. He could be very menacing, but also sympathetic, and I found his past trying to save Bae and escape a pointless war to be a good backstory for him. I do wonder why he and Bae dont just move to another village where no one thinks of him as a lame coward, but with how shoddily this world has been created, maybe thats not an option. I also continue to wonder why Rumple has an obvious Scottish accent in the midst of all these non Scots. 

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Someone brought up some interesting subtext in Rumple and Mila having different accents than other people, that maybe they were immigrants (possibly from Meridas Scottish kingdom) and thats one of the reasons they felt distant from their neighbors there, and that Mila left because she never really fit into this new place. Of course, that doesn't totally line up with everything and no way did this show give anything that much thought. But it would have been interesting.

 If nothing else, his issues (cowardice, selfishness) were consistent, and were set up right here. I also really enjoyed the relationship between Emma and early seasons Gold, if you want to call it that. They were antagonistic towards each other often, but also not exactly enemies the way Emma was with Regina. I got the feeling that Gold actually had some sympathy for Emma, and her desire to reconnect with her long lost son. And that Emma maybe even kind of respected his hustle, especially in this season. And it was kind of fun watching him play everyone like a fiddle. 

I hate that there is barley any follow up to Graham dying last episode. Emma is a bit upset, and Regina is acting like the victimized party (what a shock!) even though SHE KILLED HIM, but thats about it. It seems like they had started to make progress in the story, and it just stopped. 

[KAOS Agent]

This episode right here should have been a huge warning to viewers that payoff of major events won't happen. Seven episodes into S1 and you have what the showrunners call a game changer and a sign that no one is safe. A major event to grab viewers and make them want to tune in after the hiatus to see what happens. And then you get this. A big fat nothing on the Graham event. No consequences. Everyone thinks Graham died of a heart attack. It was sad, but that's life. So why should I care about any major event on this show when this is the follow up and payoff? 

This episode in a bubble was actually pretty good. I love early Gold and his machinations. Like Emma says when trying to describe his motives, he works diagonally. It's never really clear just what he's doing or why. However, how weird is it for them to write an episode where Emma saves Regina's life immediately following the episode where Regina murdered Emma's friend? All at the same time as basically handwaving Graham's death as natural causes and presumably never to be really examined again by these characters because they all completely buy this reasoning. It's crazy. 

[Shanna Marie]

The interesting thing about Gold's scheme is that I don't think he's really manipulating Emma. He's merely accurately predicting her behavior and setting up situations to showcase her strengths. He believes she's brave and honest, so he makes situations to show that. It's really the town he's manipulating by setting it up to make it look like Emma is standing up to him. Well, I guess she is standing up to him, but he's the one putting on the show. And Regina falls for it, too, thinking that Emma's made an enemy when she's actually done just what he wanted her to do.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The interesting thing about Gold's scheme is that I don't think he's really manipulating Emma. He's merely accurately predicting her behavior and setting up situations to showcase her strengths. He believes she's brave and honest, so he makes situations to show that. It's really the town he's manipulating by setting it up to make it look like Emma is standing up to him. Well, I guess she is standing up to him, but he's the one putting on the show. And Regina falls for it, too, thinking that Emma's made an enemy when she's actually done just what he wanted her to do.

I don't think he's manipulating Emma either. But I love the last part. So despite what Regina knows about Rumple. She's not at all suspicious when he decides to back Emma instead.  Why isn't she more suspicious of Rumple? At this point that little clause of doing whatever he wants when he says please has happened, Snow's daughter is in town, and Rumple is now helping her. Does she know how much Rumple helped Snow? Maybe more importantly why doesn't she wonder why Rumple helped her much that he allowed himself to be Cursed and is currently unCursed?

[Camera One]

Reading the other thread about "real life", if Mr. Gold set a fire, isn't that arson, so shouldn't he have been arrested?   In addition, sheriffs in Maine are elected for an entire county, so they are not technically working for the Mayor.

[companionenvy]

Emma says that she doesn't have enough evidence to prove that Gold set the fire. 

[KingOfHearts]

15 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Emma says that she doesn't have enough evidence to prove that Gold set the fire. 

Kind of hard to get evidence when you don't even bother to investigate.