AwesomO4000 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 48 minutes ago, Airmid said: I doubt he knows what Dean went through raising him, not really, nor does he care to know. I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @catrox14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere, but I don't agree that Sam didn't care to know. It was shown in season 1 that Sam did become somewhat aware of what Dean went through in "Something Wicked." I think Sam remembered some of that, because in "A Very Supernatural Christmas" he re-evaluated his memories and saw them completely differently, which is the reason he changed his mind and gave Dean Christmas. Sam then learned more in "Dark Side of the Moon," and I found it interesting that Sam said "I never realized how long you've been cleaning up Dad's messes," meaning Sam was aware that Dean had been, and now he learned more. And Sam learned even more in season 9 with "Bad Boys." So I think that Sam has learned a lot about what Dean sacrificed, and I don't think he doesn't care or pretends it didn't happen. My opinion only here: My unpopular opinion is that I would like to see Dean learn more about how Sam felt about his childhood and try to understand it more. Until last season, usually when Dean saw or heard about Sam's childhood memories, he often dismissed them "well you were a weird kid" or outright got angry - like Sam's memories about Thanksgiving. Dean doesn't even try to understand when Sam tells him why, just throws accusations. At least season 11 got closer, but we still got "why would you be lonely? You ad me." I'd like to see an episode where Dean got some young Sam perspective and maybe understood it a little better... But maybe as catrox said above, they just can understand each other's perspective, because they didn't live it. 5 minutes ago, Airmid said: But Sam can show compassion and empathy, he can see how screwed up his brother is and love him anyways and express his pride that Dean is his brother even through his faults. And Sam does do this. One example: Quote Sam: Well...come on. I mean, you've been at least...half crazy for a long time, and since you got back from hell, or since before that, even. I mean, we're in a--we're in a mental hospital. Maybe-Maybe you finally cracked! You know, maybe now you are really...for real...crazy...Dean: I made a mistake, that's all. I'll find the thing.Sam: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I know.. It's okay. Hey, hey. Look at me. It's okay...because you're my brother...and I still love ya. Sure Sam was on all the drugs, but in my opinion, he still meant it, especially the last part. And Sam expresses his appreciation as well. A lot. A few times in the early years, but season 2 comes to mind especially, in season 5, in season 6, in season 7: usually commenting on how well Dean took care of him, kept him safe, etc. and thanking Dean for that. But generally it's the few times when Sam doesn't that are remembered and sometimes thrown back in Sam's face. 23 minutes ago, Airmid said: Stepping back and actually letting Dean take the lead, since that normally works out in the end, would also be a good plan. But Sam does this often even when Dean's plans are crazy. Half the time when Sam doesn't, it's because the plot dictates he doesn't. And often the main reason why it "normally works out in the end" when Dean takes the lead is often again because sometimes Dean's lucky. Sometimes Dean's plans shouldn't work at all but they just do. This happened sometimes in the early seasons too, but it's gotten even more frequent lately, almost to annoying levels - in my opinion anyway. I wouldn't like a message that Sam should just do what Dean tells him to do, or that Sam should always just put the task of being the leader onto Dean. I actually hate that notion. It implies that Sam shouldn't even bother thinking for himself, because he just doesn't have as much to contribute to the partnership as Dean does except to follow along. 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: Maybe have Sam there listening to what Dean is saying but I kind of don't want him to say anything. We sort of got a little of this in "Dark Side of the Moon," but I get what you are saying. I agree, but as I said above, I would want something from Sam's perspective with Dean learning as well. I just would know how to do that without making it contrived and/or cheesy. 7 Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @catrox14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere, Dean knew exactly what it was like to not feel like he fit in anywhere. It could be argued that his childhood was more difficult than Sam's. Sam had Dean as a pseudo Mom and Dad because, as Dean said to Mary, Dad was a "shell" of a man. Who did Dean have? And it was thrown in Dean's face a lot that his family didn't need him like he needed them. It is Canon that Dean was the buffer between Sam because of what he wanted and John and what he wanted from Sam. Who cared about what Dean wanted. We are never given anything to show either Sam or his Dad were concerned about what Dean wanted. Actually, Dean said all he wanted was to be a family. Did we ever see any effort by Sam or John to try for Dean's sake. According to the shifter, Dean had dreams too. Who cared about them. Who was there to steal Christmas presents for Dean? Who was there to give up Lucky Charms for Dean? Where was Dean's imaginery friend? I actually have more sympathy for Dean than Sam as far as their childhood. He didn't have anybody. Quote At least season 11 got closer, but we still got "why would you be lonely? You ad me." By Dean's own admission, he had been Mother and Father to Sam. He gave up his chance at a normal life for Sam and gave up his dreams to take care of Sam. I can understand why Dean doesn't understand why his total commitment and putting Sam ahead of his own needs wasn't good enough. Maybe Sam didn't have friends other than Dean but Dean didn't have friends other than Sam. Quote I'd' like to see an episode where Dean got some young Sam perspective and maybe understood it a little better... We got that with Just My Imagination. I hate that episode personally for IMO the retconning it did as far as how Dean took care of Sam. Quote But generally it's the few times when Sam doesn't that are remembered and sometimes thrown back in Sam's face For me, it's not the times Sam doesn't remember, it's the times Sam rips into his brother. Like was mentioned earlier, we had Bad Boys and 5 episodes later we got the Purge. Anyway, those are just my opinions for what they are worth. Quote Edited May 31, 2017 by Idahoforspn 10 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: I don't understand why Sam was buying time for Cas? IMO Sam just didn't even think about the spell IMO. Because he was so caught up in the Death and Dean thing that he forgot. I mean it makes no sense otherwise really LOL except PLOT PLOT PLOT You forget that you left the stove on or locked a door, not that you have a spell cooking that you were just working on to free your suicidal brother. Dean's standing there telling him what's going to happen if the Mark's removed. They fight and Sam's like okay, so kill me then. If his thoughts were fully on the welfare of his brother, of Dean not hurting anyone then you can't say that he's not thinking about the spell that he's spent half a season lying about pursuing and that's almost at completion. The same thing that got Charlie killed that Dean asked him not to do but he still did anyway in the end. It's not some small thing. It's not a little side note that hasn't been mentioned in weeks. Sam knows, he knows now that what he's doing is going to screw over the entire universe most likely but it still doesn't matter. I think the nicest explanation of Sam never mentioning the spell, or halting it would be PLOT PLOT PLOT. Otherwise it looks like Sam simply did not GAF to me. Or perhaps believe that things were really that dire. Keep in mind, that's my opinion only but to me, that entire sequence does Sam no favors. Especially when he pulls out the old photos. Though Dean's "Close your eyes, Sammy." will always give me chills. Seriously. 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: IMO Dean really stepped up for himself this season much like he used to in s1 through 4. He spoke his mind when he wanted to and talked about things when he wanted to. Not just on another person's schedule. He did express himself and he's always been emotionally demonstrative IMO. He was speaking his mind all season and even found a way to admit that he hated Mary (that's a rant for another time). So for me, for Dean's continuing development, I need him to continue speaking up for himself like he did years ago and IMO like he did in s12. I agree that after the MoC he doesn't appear as broken as he used to be but look at his entire rant to Mary. It's All About Sam for the most part. The parts that Dean has about himself are basically she was supposed to be there and he couldn't take care of Sam the way he should have been cared for. He doesn't say "I failed Sam, I went to hell trying to save him." Or "I watched him die in my arms, I went to hell to bring him back only to watch him jump into that same damn place to save the world." There's literally nothing about him, or really how much he's been through. It's all Sam centered because apparently that's still Dean's default mode. It ticked me off, honestly. Not Sam's fault because Sam did suffer. But this was Dean's confrontation with Mary, the one that blew him off and accused him of wanting her to be the Mary he remembered. What he wanted was his mother and whatever she could give him and he doesn't say that. She's the one he desired a connection with, tried hard to keep contact with her and giving her space and goes and saves her ass in the end even when she didn't deserve it and almost got them all horribly murdered. It's rather sad that these are the people that Dean loves, actually. Seeing that Dean spoke for Sam, it would be fitting if Sam spoke for Dean. And actually spoke for his brother and didn't somehow make it about himself. And I'm confused about you seeing Dean as actually speaking up for himself. Because if that was Dean from like Season One and he found out Sam had being going behind his back he would have put a stop to that right quick. I don't see him tolerating that, no matter how much he loves Sam but he also would have proposed a better way to handle things. Not just go 'oh, okay you've lied to me yet again but lets go with your plan of following the BMOL which will in no way shape or form bite us in the ass'. This isn't a hate rant against Sam, it's more that we keep ending up with writer's having Sam lie to get what he wants which is just old. If he had just told Dean it would have been different. But he makes up an excuse and apparently Dean is now a moron and believes it. 3 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 Sorry for the double post, just different pages and keeps it from being one big giant wall of stuff from me. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @catrox14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere, but I don't agree that Sam didn't care to know. It was shown in season 1 that Sam did become somewhat aware of what Dean went through in "Something Wicked." I think Sam remembered some of that, because in "A Very Supernatural Christmas" he re-evaluated his memories and saw them completely differently, which is the reason he changed his mind and gave Dean Christmas. Sam then learned more in "Dark Side of the Moon," and I found it interesting that Sam said "I never realized how long you've been cleaning up Dad's messes," meaning Sam was aware that Dean had been, and now he learned more. And Sam learned even more in season 9 with "Bad Boys." So I think that Sam has learned a lot about what Dean sacrificed, and I don't think he doesn't care or pretends it didn't happen. I think Sam has a more clinical view on Dean's life. He has to be shown certain things in order to get an idea. For some reason it just doesn't click what his brother gave up, what John made Dean into. Sam had to see the mess in Something Wicked, to remember Dean getting reamed out because he was a kid and was tired and wanted to play videos games for an hour or two and not be the parent. Which left Sam in danger and made John move them without killing the monster. Than she shows back up and is killing more kids and Dean's saddled with guilt that what he wanted ended up costing lives. Sam got that Dean took care of him, tried desperately to keep him in the dark about monsters but I don't think he got the rest. In Dark Side of the Moon, we get an unflattering portrayal of Sam. Dean's memories are of his family, Sam's are of him escaping that family. Sam can't control what's happening and I think that episode is a catalyst for Point of No Return where Sam finally backs Dean. Believes in him and believes his brother will do the right thing. Which means that Dean does say no and stabs an angel to save him. It gets Dean all the way to Stull to go die with his brother if that's all he has left. I like that Sam. I like that Sam still has crazy plans and does stupid things, and still gets irritated by Dean but still believes in his brother and tells him the truth about his crazy plans. He doesn't just go off and do it and it's his brother who helps him in the end. Sadly, that Sam is short lived but I still love him. Bad Boys, Sam has to see that Dean had a happy life once that wasn't with his family. That Dean gave it up because of him. Sam should already know how much Dean gave up. He should already have told him he understood and was thankful for Dean's sacrifices years ago. Like back when Dean got his soul from the Cage. Or when Dean decided he could start believing in Sam again too towards the end of Season Five. Not nine seasons in after that speech in Sacrifice and while he's currently possessed by Gadreel. Good statement, terrible timing. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Sure Sam was on all the drugs, but in my opinion, he still meant it, especially the last part. It's terribly sad that Sam has to be drugged out of his gourd to be able to say something as sweet as that to his brother. I'm sure he meant it, drugged Sam is probably extremely truthful and without all that rage and pride. It just took way to long in coming, especially given the previous season and Dean's really out of his head at the time. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: But Sam does this often even when Dean's plans are crazy. Half the time when Sam doesn't, it's because the plot dictates he doesn't. And often the main reason why it "normally works out in the end" when Dean takes the lead is often again because sometimes Dean's lucky. Sometimes Dean's plans shouldn't work at all but they just do. This happened sometimes in the early seasons too, but it's gotten even more frequent lately, almost to annoying levels - in my opinion anyway. I wouldn't like a message that Sam should just do what Dean tells him to do, or that Sam should always just put the task of being the leader onto Dean. I actually hate that notion. It implies that Sam shouldn't even bother thinking for himself, because he just doesn't have as much to contribute to the partnership as Dean does except to follow along. I'm not saying that Sam should be a doormat and just let his brother dictate his life. But even you have pointed out that Sam's plans often end up poorly. I also dislike the notion that the hero is the one without the highest kill count and most battle wins. Dean is actually the better leader of the two but Sam is the sanity meter. He should be there to make sure Dean stays normal and just this side of sane, help with the plans and make sure Dean's there to kick down the door. Though in all fairness, once again one of my favorite episodes - Adam stupidity aside - is the one where Sam believes in his brother, gets him to the battle with whatever half assed plan they have and makes sure he gets across the finish line. Dean has to do insane things to protect them, to get them out to keep fighting but at the end of the day he couldn't do that without Sam. And Sam couldn't be the best person he could be without Dean. They need each other and should play solid and equally important, if different, roles in each other's lives. If that makes sense. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: We got that with Just My Imagination. Right. One episode. Two if we include "Afterschool Special," but that episode wasn't really sympathizing with Sam as much as showing Sam that his dreams really weren't important anyway and that he should have given them up for family. That's generally been the stance of the show. Even "Just My Imagination" re-established that in a way - i.e. that hunting is what Sam should've been doing in that Sully admitted that he had been wrong about thinking that Sam should've run away from hunting. 11 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: Who was there to give up Lucky Charms for Dean? Where was Dean's imaginery friend? I actually have more sympathy for Dean than Sam as far as their childhood. He didn't have anybody. Except John. In my opinion, it's not really until mid season 3 that Dean starts to realize that his childhood was maybe not so great. He waxed poetic to Sam about the beer can wreath John stole and the Boston Market dinners for Christmas and how much he loved it. He waxed poetic to Gordon about his first werewolf hunt and how lucky he had been to make a difference like that at 16 when everyone else was just worrying about pimples and prom. It could be argued that in the "Afterschool Special" flashback, teen Dean bragging about having his freedom was just boasting, but he seemed to be fairly genuine until that girl called him out. And Dean had no reason to "boast" to Gordon about his childhood, so I thought that was genuine, too. As for the shifter, I agree that Dean likely had some dreams he gave up for Sam until Sam finished school, but there was no reason, in my opinion, that Dean had to stay to "take care of Dad" after Sam left for school. Dean and John were already hunting sometimes on their own. I my opinion, Dean either stayed because hunting was what he wanted to do, or because it was easier and was what he knew. Neither thing had anything to do with Sam leaving, and I think the blame the shifter placed on Sam for that was unwarranted. And if hunting is in Dean's blood and/or it's what he loves, couldn't it just as easily be said that Dean gave up his other dreams to keep hunting because he loves it and it gives him a purpose? That has nothing to do with sacrificing for Sam either. 28 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: Who cared about what Dean wanted. We are never given anything to show either Sam or his Dad were concerned about what Dean wanted. Actually, Dean said all he wanted was to be a family. Did we ever see any effort by Sam or John to try for Dean's sake. Sam tried. He decided that staying and hunting with Dean was worth giving up his dreams of going back to school for, and that's what Sam did. And Sam confirmed that he thought that his decision had been worth it in "What Is..." I'm not sure what else Sam could've done or given to Dean that was worth more than that, so we'll have to agree to disagree. And it wasn't really Sam's fault that he was then killed and Dean sold his soul for him. As for before that when Sam was younger... sometimes just wanting something doesn't mean it's going to be. I would love to have maybe toughed it out a couple more years at home for my sister, but my mother and I just didn't get along. Period. Staying would've meant more fights and a toxic environment. Sometimes you just have to go for your sake and everyone else's and hope that maybe it was just you who didn't quite fit - which Sam likely thought - and that it will get better after you're gone... or even if you think it might not. What Dean wanted was never going to be. It just wouldn't have worked... well unless Sam and John both changed their personalities and/or went around gritting their teeth until one or the other of them got the other or themselves or Dean killed potentially. And that really wouldn't be them all getting along as a family... it would be a group of people pretending to get along as a family... which isn't the same thing. And it wasn't like Sam wanted it to go wrong between him and John. Even though you hate it, we learned from "Just My Imagination" that Sam wanted to be part of the family business, enough to give up Sully. So in my opinion Sam did try to be part of the family. Just somewhere along the line that we didn't see, that just didn't work out like he planned, and somewhere along the line, Sam and John stopped seeing see eye to eye. 44 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: I can understand why Dean doesn't understand why his total commitment and putting Sam ahead of his own needs wasn't good enough. Maybe Sam didn't have friends other than Dean but Dean didn't have friends other than Sam. Up front, I'm going to say that I'm not ragging on Dean for this, but I disagree that Dean always put Sam in front of his own needs or even his own wants. Dean had a social life outside of Sam. He left Sam at places to go have a social life (Plucky Pennywhistles...) Dean potentially left him alone in the hotel room to go on dates ("Afterschool Special") or socialize (the story about Dean going to the club and being saved by John in a recent episode that I forget which one.) . And Sam was doing things on his own at times as young as 9 years old - which was where Sully came in. And it appeared to be a not uncommon occurrence (the mention of Sam making his own dinner in "I Believe the Children..." and what seemed to be a routine in "The Girl Next Door") later on in Sam's life. I agree that Dean sacrificed to take care of Sam, but he didn't sacrifice everything. And I'm not sure what you mean by "total commitment." I'm not dissing Dean for this, because he was a kid and he deserved his own time, but he was also lucky that 1) Sam could take care of himself and 2) Sam didn't try to get into too much trouble when left on his own on Dean's watch - beyond running away that one time. Sam in the wrong place at the wrong time and picked up by a child predator or something could've ended very differently. And in my opinion, Sam behaving himself was thinking of Dean in a way, because he could've easily gotten into to trouble and shrugged it off onto Dean. So we'll have to agree to disagree. 17 minutes ago, Airmid said: If he had just told Dean it would have been different. But then we couldn't have "Sam is wrong," and how can we forget to add that in every. Single. Season? (Post Gamble - who I thought was very good about not making things either of the boys' fault - damn I miss Gamble.) 19 minutes ago, Airmid said: I think the nicest explanation of Sam never mentioning the spell, or halting it would be PLOT PLOT PLOT. Otherwise it looks like Sam simply did not GAF to me. Or perhaps believe that things were really that dire. See above "Sam is wrong" explanation. As I've said previously, I was enjoying season 10 until they just had to go the "Sam is careless and starts another apocalypse" route. I'm so, so tired of that recently. Again, I miss Gamble. 5 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: But then we couldn't have "Sam is wrong," and how can we forget to add that in every. Single. Season? (Post Gamble - who I thought was very good about not making things either of the boys' fault - damn I miss Gamble.) 10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: See above "Sam is wrong" explanation. As I've said previously, I was enjoying season 10 until they just had to go the "Sam is careless and starts another apocalypse" route. I'm so, so tired of that recently. Again, I miss Gamble. I hope you don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot of writing fail on Sam's part. I do think the same thing happens to Dean but it seems to be in a different way than Sam's. Example: a) Dean did that stupid, stupid thing about selling his soul for Sam but it was understandable. He was consumed by grief, that one thing he must always do "protect Sammy" was now gone, he had failed. So he ran off to give Sam the one thing he had left to give. Yes, it could be considered by some as selfish but I think it wasn't at that point. Dean ends up breaking the first seal but he does it under torture and thinks he's there for forever, that there's no hope. He's innocent of heaven's and hell's plans. b) Compare to Sam who gets dragged through the mud. Getting his brother back isn't enough and even as soon as Dean is raised from the dead he's back off with Ruby instead of being relieved. Dean isn't enough and Sam's motives are muddled the whole season. In the end he picks his brother far too late and breaks the seal. While not knowing what he is doing, he is a much more active participant in his own downfall. He's not being tortured, he's not trapped in hell, he got Dean back, he knows what he's doing is wrong on some level and doesn't even once ask for help to stop. Even if he asked just once for his brother's or Bobby's help and then fell off the wagon it would have made a difference in his whole arc. Sam ends up holding the short end of the stick a lot. Even when Dean is selfish and sells Sam off to Gadreel so his brother can live and Dean won't be alone it somehow works out better than when Sam's trying to save Dean from the MoC. Both times actually because the first he essentially tortures his brother back to humanity for a little while and the second attempt, he lets lose Amara and tens, if not hundreds of thousands die. Oh and Dean kills Death, but no sweat, not like there's consequences for that or anything. Great. Way to write one of your heroes, show. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 32 minutes ago, Airmid said: Sam had to see the mess in Something Wicked, to remember Dean getting reamed out because he was a kid and was tired and wanted to play videos games for an hour or two and not be the parent. Which left Sam in danger and made John move them without killing the monster. Than she shows back up and is killing more kids and Dean's saddled with guilt that what he wanted ended up costing lives. Sam got that Dean took care of him, tried desperately to keep him in the dark about monsters but I don't think he got the rest. To be fair, Sam was a little kid and didn't even remember the Shtriga incident even happening. As for the rest, I think Sam did understand more than you are giving him credit for. Quote Dean: Dad just ... grabbed us and booked. Dropped us off at Pastor Jim's about three hours away, but by the time he got back to Fort Douglas the shtriga had disappeared, it was just gone. It never surfaced until now. You know, Dad never spoke about it again, I didn't ask. But he...ah...he looked at me different, you know? Which was worse. Not that I blame him. He gave me an order and I didn't listen, I almost got you killed.Sam: (Softly) You were just a kid. And later in the episode: Quote Sam: Hey, Dean, I'm sorry. Dean: For what? Sam: You know, I've really given you a lot of crap, for always following Dad's orders. But I know why you do it. Dean: Oh, god, kill me now. 44 minutes ago, Airmid said: Bad Boys, Sam has to see that Dean had a happy life once that wasn't with his family. That Dean gave it up because of him. Sam should already know how much Dean gave up. He should already have told him he understood and was thankful for Dean's sacrifices years ago. Like back when Dean got his soul from the Cage. Or when Dean decided he could start believing in Sam again too towards the end of Season Five. Not nine seasons in after that speech in Sacrifice and while he's currently possessed by Gadreel. Good statement, terrible timing. I'm not sure what you mean here. Sam did thank Dean for getting his soul out of hell: Quote Sam: And I have a soul because of you. I never thanked you for that, did I?Dean: That's all good, man.Sam: Well, thanks.Dean: You'd have done the same for me.Sam: I mean it. Look, we keep our heads down, keep swinging. We'll lose some. Hopefully, we'll win more. And...I don't know. Anyway, for what it's worth, I got your back. And acknowledges Dean taking care of him and sacrificing for him when they were kids: Quote Sam: You shouldn't've done that. How could you do that?Dean: Don't get mad at me. Don't you do that. I had to. I had to look out for you. That's my job.Sam: And what do you think my job is?Dean: What?Sam: You've saved my life over and over. I mean, you sacrifice everything for me. Don't you think I'd do the same for you? You're my big brother. There's nothing I wouldn't do for you. And I don't care what it takes, I'm gonna get you out of this. Guess I gotta save your ass for a change. [Except, of course, the writers didn't let Sam do that.] Another example: Quote Sam: You know what, though? Seriously? It might be nice.Dean: What?Sam: I mean, you basically have been looking out for me your whole life. Now you finally get to take care of yourself. About time, huh? And Sam did thank Dean for believing in him again at the end of season 5 in the beginning of "Swan Song." So it wasn't just the thing in "Bad Boys." In my opinion, there have been several incidences - and those are just the ones I happen to remember - where Sam acknowledges Dean. Just a lot of people tend to skip over those and focus on the times when Sam is angry and says crappy things instead. Sadly however, often when Sam makes a sacrifice for Dean, Dean's usually not even there to even see it. I would love for Dean to find out about Sam taking on his hell memories so that he could be there for Dean in the season 6 finale, or the lengths Sam went through to track down the Trickster in "Mystery Spot", but that'll never happen, so Dean will never know.* [* I actually wrote a scene covering the "Mystery Spot" thing in one of my fanfics] 31 minutes ago, Airmid said: Sam ends up holding the short end of the stick a lot. I've posted about this myself in the past also. You give some good examples, and there are more in the same vein when I start looking. (I've posted them on this thread somewhere in the past.) In some ways, Sam's bad luck in this regard even goes back to season 1 - see the finale where he does the right thing and doesn't kill John... and somehow that still ends up biting Sam in the ass more than if he'd killed John. If the season 12 finale did anything, at least maybe it hinted that Lucifer had to come out and be thrown back in the cage to keep the scenario in the alternate universe from happening. But yeah, the Death one was just ridiculous: not only did nothing happen... but Billie ending up helping them save the world from Amara - who Sam let out - so good thing Dean killed Death, so Billie would get pissed and associate herself with Sam and Dean. :: eyeroll :: Ironically I predicted nothing would happen from Dean killing Death right after the season 10 finale. (near the top of page 2 in the episode thread - I don't know how to link directly to my post) http://forums.previously.tv/topic/26840-s10e23-brothers-keeper/?page=2 8 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 10 hours ago, Airmid said: But Sam can show compassion and empathy, he can see how screwed up his brother is and love him anyways and express his pride that Dean is his brother even through his faults. And the best way to do it is to stop lying or at times treating Dean like he's a moron. Stepping back and actually letting Dean take the lead, since that normally works out in the end, would also be a good plan. I think Sam does show Dean compassion or empathy and is proud of his brother. (as @AwesomO4000 pointed out.) Maybe he hasn't always been in the past, but then Dean hasn't always reciprocated in the past either. I.E. they are both guilty. Like I said, I think right now, the boys are at a good place in their relationship. I don't want it to regress again. I agree that I would like to see the lying stop. (And that Sam usually gets the short end of the stick there, like you said earlier in a part of your comment that I didn't quote. :) ) But I disagree that Sam treats Dean like he's a moron. At least, not any more than how sometimes Dean treats Sam like he's a moron - which is kind of what siblings do. As for Sam letting Dean lead all the time, once again I agree with @AwesomO4000: 8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I wouldn't like a message that Sam should just do what Dean tells him to do, or that Sam should always just put the task of being the leader onto Dean. I actually hate that notion. It implies that Sam shouldn't even bother thinking for himself, because he just doesn't have as much to contribute to the partnership as Dean does except to follow along. Fwiw - I think that's was the message of Sam's confession to Dean when they were trapped in the bunker in 12.22. Sam's "it was easier to follow" was shown to be a bad thing. 6 Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Right. One episode. Two if we include "Afterschool Special," but that episode wasn't really sympathizing with Sam as much as showing Sam that his dreams really weren't important anyway and that he should have given them up for family. I got exactly the opposite out of after school special. Sam left that school having been encouraged by a teacher to follow his own dreams and that's just what he did. He studied hard and went off to college. It wasn't until after Jessica's death that he gave up his dream (sort of) and he gave it up for revenge. Also in After School Special, Sam was shown as the one in the end who fit in and had friends. Dean was shown as the outcast. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: That's's generally been the stance of the show. Even "Just My Imagination" re-established that in a way - i.e. that hunting is what Sam should've been doing in that Sully admitted that he had been wrong about thinking that Sam should've run away from hunting. But as a kid, Sam was shown as ex cited about hunting and all Sully did was say he shouldn't have discouraged Sam from doing what he wanted to do then. And this was before After School Special in Sam's life so he hadn't decided he didn't want to hunt. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Except John. In my opinion, it's not really until mid season 3 that Dean starts to realize that his childhood was maybe not so great. He waxed poetic to Sam about the beer can wreath I got the impression Dean was just trying to come up with something to say their Christmas's hadn't been totally pathetic. Pretty sad when a beer wreath is all you can come up with in my opinion. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: He waxed poetic to Gordon about his first werewolf hunt and how lucky he had been to make a difference like that at 16 when everyone else was just worrying about pimples and prom. I could be wrong because I haven't watched that one lately but didn't Dean say something to the effect that that was a turning point where he decided to embrace the life. If he hadn't embraced the life before then he must have had some kind of problem with how his life was previous to that. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: ItIt could be argued that in the "Afterschool Special" flashback, teen Dean bragging about having his freedom was just boasting, but he seemed to be fairly genuine until that girl called him out. In my opinion, Dean was making the best of what he had. I don't believe for a moment that he would have taken his freedom over having John around more. In my opinion, he would also have had more freedom, not less, if John had been around to be Sam's parent more. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: As for the shifter, I agree that Dean likely had some dreams he gave up for Sam until Sam finished school, but there was no reason, in my opinion, that Dean had to stay to "take care of Dad" after Sam left for school. This was after Dean was 16 and embraced the life. Personally, I think he probably somewhere deep down felt he didn't have a lot of options by then. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Dean and John were already hunting sometimes on their own. I my opinion, Dean either stayed because hunting was what he wanted to do, or because it was easier and was what he knew. Neither thing had anything to do with Sam leaving, and I think the blame the shifter placed on Sam for that was unwarranted. And if hunting is in Dean's blood and/or it's what he loves, couldn't it just as easily be said that Dean gave up his other dreams to keep hunting because he loves it and it gives him a purpose? That has nothing to do with sacrificing for Sam either. Sam tried. He decided that staying and hunting with Dean was worth giving up his dreams of going back to school for, and that's what Sam did. Sam didn't go back to school because he wanted revenge. And by the time he got revenge ( YED dead), he was on soul saving duty. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: And Sam confirmed that he thought that his decision had been worth it in "What Is..." Sam was trying to convince Dean that it had been worth it for Dean. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: And it wasn't really Sam's fault that he was then killed and Dean sold his soul for him. I agree there. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: As for before that when Sam was younger... sometimes just wanting something doesn't mean it's going to be. I would love to have maybe toughed it out a couple more years at home for my sister, but my mother and I just didn't get along. Period. Staying would've meant more fights and a toxic environment. Sometimes you just have to go for your sake and everyone else's and hope that maybe it was just you who didn't quite fit - which Sam likely thought - and that it will get better after you're gone... or even if you think it might not. But Sam didn't remain in contact with Dean either. He broke off all contact with both of them. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: What Dean wanted was never going to be. It just wouldn't have worked... well unless Sam and John both changed their personalities and/or Or they actually tried to grow up a little and learn to give and take instead of just doing the easiest thing which was blow up at each other. Maybe they needed an anger management class so they could learn how to behave like adults. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: So we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes. We just see things differently. 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: But then we couldn't have "Sam is wrong," and how can we forget to add that in every. Single. Season? (Post Gamble - who I thought was very good about not making things either of the boys' fault - damn I miss Gamble.) See above "Sam is wrong" explanation. As I've said previously, I was enjoying season 10 until they just had to go the "Sam is careless and starts another apocalypse" route. I'm so, so tired of that recently. Again, I miss Gamble. I have said before and will say again, I think the writing for both brothers (and Castiel, and Crowley ) leaves a lot to be desired. Especially this year. 5 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 Quote 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Except John. In my opinion, it's not really until mid season 3 that Dean starts to realize that his childhood was maybe not so great. He waxed poetic to Sam about the beer can wreath @Idahoforspn said Quote I got the impression Dean was just trying to come up with something to say their Christmas's hadn't been totally pathetic. Pretty sad when a beer wreath is all you can come up with in my opinion. Yep. It's Dean putting lipstick on a pig. Seriously, with their dumpster fire of a childhood, thank Chuck for his ability to make good memories out of something so pathetic. He's Tigger to Sam's Eeyore. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 8 hours ago, Airmid said: I agree that after the MoC he doesn't appear as broken as he used to be but look at his entire rant to Mary. It's All About Sam for the most part. The parts that Dean has about himself are basically she was supposed to be there and he couldn't take care of Sam the way he should have been cared for. He doesn't say "I failed Sam, I went to hell trying to save him." Or "I watched him die in my arms, I went to hell to bring him back only to watch him jump into that same damn place to save the world." There's literally nothing about him, or really how much he's been through. It's all Sam centered because apparently that's still Dean's default mode. I never thought Dean's speech to Mary was ever about Dean really. IMO , it was a beautifully written, perfectly acted plot device that used Dean's emotional POV veiled in his issues but was really there for Dean bear witness to Mary about Sam's life and to remind the audience of all the suffering that little Baby Sammy endured in his life as it was juxtaposed with Sam ascending to leader of an army of hunters. It was about as close to a baby Jon Snow/King of the North Jon Snow moment (GoT viewers will understand this) a could be. That's why I want Dean to have another ACTUAL cathartic moment that is ONLY about him and how all this affected HIM beyond. "I had to be a father and a mother ...and that wasn't fair". I need a lot more than that. 3 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: To be fair, Sam was a little kid and didn't even remember the Shtriga incident even happening. As for the rest, I think Sam did understand more than you are giving him credit for. I never said Sam doesn't remember, I mean more what I said. That Sam had almost an outside observer view of his childhood without really thinking about what Dean went to before it hit him upside the head (the Shtriga, Dean's time at the farm) etc. To be fair to Sam, they tend to write him that way for some kind of emotional arc instead of him already having realized that. 6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I'm not sure what you mean here. Sam did thank Dean for getting his soul out of hell: I meant more of a 'thanks for being willing to sacrifice your entire childhood/dreams to take care of me and loving me enough to not be filled with bitterness that you take out on me' kind of thing. 6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Sadly however, often when Sam makes a sacrifice for Dean, Dean's usually not even there to even see it. I would love for Dean to find out about Sam taking on his hell memories so that he could be there for Dean in the season 6 finale, or the lengths Sam went through to track down the Trickster in "Mystery Spot", but that'll never happen, so Dean will never know.* For the hell memories, I think at least Dean got a fragment of the idea of how hard it was for his brother, what with Sam hallucinating his ass off and then ending up in a crazy ward. And too Dean's credit on that one he just simply accepts crazy ass Sam and tried to help him and then pulls out all the stops to get Sam help when things get really bad. In some ways, it's kind of worse for Sam because he never got a chance to give Dean that. I think Sam from Point of No Return to Swan Song could have but he ends up in hell so he's not around to fix up his brother. Season 6 he spends partially soulless and then gets that dumped on him when he comes back and then has to scramble to get his noggin back in order to help fight stupid angel plot #350. Then he has a broken noggin and just when he's getting stuff back together and kind of side eyeing his brother and just how cray-cray he's getting Dean get sucks into another plane of existence. Then Season 8 comes along and stabs his character to near death. I used to read a reviewer back then, sort of a tongue-in-cheek type of write up, who had a boyfriend who was so Dean-centric that he could care less about Sam's screen time. At the start of Season 8, apparently he gave a long speech on how bad the opening episode was, what it did to Sam's character and why it was unwarranted. So, yeah, Sam's gotten the short end of the stick. I can see him not telling Dean about Mystery Spot and honestly if he had, I think Dean would have been more prepared and more on the look out for the tells that his brother was going into that kind of crazy way early in season four. Which, knowing Dean, broken or not, would have meant that he would have helped Sam a whole lot sooner. In all fairness, Sam doesn't know what his brother said to Mary either. 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I think Sam does show Dean compassion or empathy and is proud of his brother. (as @AwesomO4000 pointed out.) Maybe he hasn't always been in the past, but then Dean hasn't always reciprocated in the past either. I.E. they are both guilty. Like I said, I think right now, the boys are at a good place in their relationship. I don't want it to regress again. Oh no, they are both seriously guilty of both being responsible for the stupid relationship shit that goes on in this show. And the last thing I would ever want to see is them back tracking yet again so both brothers can have some terrible bonding moment that is solved by two minutes and a beer by the car. 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I agree that I would like to see the lying stop. (And that Sam usually gets the short end of the stick there, like you said earlier in a part of your comment that I didn't quote. :) ) But I disagree that Sam treats Dean like he's a moron. At least, not any more than how sometimes Dean treats Sam like he's a moron - which is kind of what siblings do. I probably should have said they need to stop writing either brother as a moron so the plot they want can move forward. I'm kind of thinking that's where half the problems come from. 2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Fwiw - I think that's was the message of Sam's confession to Dean when they were trapped in the bunker in 12.22. Sam's "it was easier to follow" was shown to be a bad thing. Which is bad because 1) Following in and of it's self isn't a bad thing or necessarily the easier portion. Not to bring in religion but to give an example in the real world - ask a Christian how hard it is to follow the faith's teaching on seeing/loving all people as children of God. I doubt you're going to get "Wowee, it's so easy, no one in this whole wide world will ever set me off." There are different types of following, not just blindingly follow one person and calling it good. Or on that same vein, with the armed forces, following commands may not always be easy but they are most often given to you because your commanding officer is responsible for your ass and needs you safe. There is a whole military culture on that one though, and times when following orders is not acceptable, such as in the case where war crimes are being committed. On the other hand, to successfully invade and free people you need to be able to follow and that's still not guaranteed to be easy peasy lemon squeezy. 2) Sam follows but he also makes bad choices to get there which is a completely different thing all together. He made bad choices the entire time he was choosing BMOL. Granted they weren't severe, not so much as Mary's but they still ended up having pretty severe consequences. He got suckered in by their splashy light and slight of hand and decided to become blind to what's going on around him. For some reason, having any kind of support role ever, no matter how long, is seen as bad. Yeah, people always remember the planes going out to bomb the enemy and being heroes for winning, but no one remembers all the dudes who broke the code and got the intel and managed the planes, maintained them, got the pilots in the air in the first place, etc A character doesn't always have to be supporting everyone else (i.e. following) but they also don't always have to be the leader or just assume the leadership role because plot, either. And sorry, this little section is necessarily directed at you, just more in general. :) 1 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Airmid said: Which is bad because <yeah, I'm just going to snip the rest of this because it's a lot :)> First: I pretty much agree with your assessments about 'following'. The difference I see between the two scenarios you gave and what Sam did with the BMoL (Christians and military) is neither of your examples are people blindly following orders (there are choices - and responsibility for those choices. And as you pointed out, in the military there are times when blindly following orders is not acceptable. I could also make that case for religion, but I don't really want to go there. :) ) whereas that's pretty much what Sam did (blindly follow) with the BMoL. I think it was *that* kind of 'blind following' which was supposed to be the bad thing - not necessarily all 'following'. A subtle distinction, perhaps - but still a distinction. ETA: 14 minutes ago, Airmid said: And sorry, this little section is necessarily directed at you, just more in general. :) Oh, I could tell! Lol. Edited May 31, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey No worries! Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I think it was *that* kind of 'blind following' which was supposed to be the bad thing - not necessarily all 'following'. A subtle distinction, perhaps - but still a distinction. The thing of it is though, Sam wasn't. I'm not saying you are wrong in the show's distinction here, just that how they have it written, it just doesn't work as blind following. Sam knows something is off. he sees signs, he is wary enough of Dean's response because he already knows his brother's going to bring this up. Instead they have Dean drink the Kool-Aid. I think the main problem here is that Sam found a place with neat toys that gave lip service to things he cared about and wanted someone else to tell him what to do. (Which is a thing for military personal and those who have served long periods and get out can have issues readjusting due to not having orders and direct goals to met in civilian life). I think that's why Sam was so gun ho on joining the BMOL but he should have wised up a bit sooner and the time of him joining was just bad given some of the stuff with Mary already at that point. If they had swooped in, 'rescued' him from LadyIdontgiveafuck and offered him the same kind of deal I could see him taking it. Excitedly so. His family is totally alive, he's got an organization he can admire and sought him out and has already proven itself as 'trustworthy' and has plans on making sure people are safe in his country. Which caters to Sam's ultimate goal and viewpoint - that he wants an end while Dean doesn't see one. Later on not so much but this show has had issues before with 'following' being bad and 'being the badass in the front kicking down the door' the only good option. 42 minutes ago, catrox14 said: That's why I want Dean to have another ACTUAL cathartic moment that is ONLY about him and how all this affected HIM beyond. "I had to be a father and a mother ...and that wasn't fair". I need a lot more than that. I think it would be cathartic for him to both be able to say it and be able to hear his brother say it but we can agree to disagree on that one. :) Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: I never thought Dean's speech to Mary was ever about Dean really. IMO , it was a beautifully written, perfectly acted plot device that used Dean's emotional POV veiled in his issues but was really there for Dean bear witness to Mary about Sam's life and to remind the audience of all the suffering that little Baby Sammy endured in his life as it was juxtaposed with Sam ascending to leader of an army of hunters. It was about as close to a baby Jon Snow/King of the North Jon Snow moment (GoT viewers will understand this) a could be. I totally agree with this. 1 Link to comment
SueB May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 (edited) I don't think Sam blindly followed orders. I think Sam let warning signs go unchallenged. When specifically faced with an objectionable 'pseudo-order': Kill Claire, kill Eileen -- he absolutely objected. He challenged Mick to not blindly follow the "Code." When first 'signing up', IMO Sam: - Made a conscious decision to treat the "Lady Toni was a rogue." statement as viable. Mick's actions in that second episode were all reasonable -- he powered down the warding so Cas could come in. Mick put the power BACK into the Winchesters hands and argued for taking Lady Toni back to the UK for 'discipline'. - - Believed the BMoL had potential but problems. Which Mick rapidly agreed with. - Warning signs ignored: The comments about leaving witnesses (in First Blood), Ketch enjoying beating the vampire (which Sam may or maynot have known about) The first few weeks of cases were pretty smooth: - Four hunts back to back. All good leads. No trickery, monsters were ganked, people saved. - The rogue hellhound case was good. Innocent saved, dead hellhound. A win. The Claire case was the first unambigous over-the-line moment post signing up: - The Code became unambiguous. But Mick did the right thing. - Sam and Dean appeased themselves with a 'don't do it again.' and that they swayed Mick. Nearly killing Eileen was the second post-signing up issue: - They BARELY stopped Mick -- although he did stop. - THIS (IMO) is when they should have re-evaluated after the fact and didn't. By this time they saw how Mick was seriously stressed about ignoring the code. Mick was, IMO, 'alright' in their book because he was learning the 'Winchester Way'. But they should have gotten a bad vibe off of Renny and they should have tried to have a follow-up with Mick after the fact. Going on a case based on a text note from Mick - okay.Finding out Mick was sent back to HQ for violating the code -- NOT OKAY. That should have been a deal breaker. They should have let Ketch know to call them when Mick was back. THIS is where they were now, IMO, conveniently ignoring warning signs. They did not refuse to take further cases. They just 'reported in'. At this point, they should have circled the wagons with Mary and told her their concerns about the "Code". Asked her if she had witnessed Ketch going over the line on cruelty or doing a 'cleanup' on innocents. I think Mary would have phoned them on the second but not the first. Of course by this point, the BMoL had already figured the jig was up. I could rationalize all the previous behavior but once they realized that the very reason they could still justify working with the BMoL (that Mick was coming around to their thinking) was not supported by the organization -- they should have stepped back. But they didn't. Now Sam took ALL THE BLAME. But IMO, Dean owns every decision made once HE said "okay". In my UO today, I think Dean bears culpability that he didn't step up to. Yes, it was Sam who convinced Dean to give it a try. But Dean did NOT dump the BMoL when his spidey sense told him too. IF we had seen him arguing that maybe they should rethink this, THEN I'd give Dean a pass. But he didn't. So... I'm not happy the show placed all the blame on Sam. Edited May 31, 2017 by SueB 7 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 33 minutes ago, Airmid said: I think that's why Sam was so gun ho on joining the BMOL but he should have wised up a bit sooner and the time of him joining was just bad given some of the stuff with Mary already at that point. If they had swooped in, 'rescued' him from LadyIdontgiveafuck and offered him the same kind of deal I could see him taking it. Excitedly so. Wait-What? I agree with "Sam found a place with neat toys that gave lip service to things he cared about" reason for him agreeing to join up, but the bolded part confuses me. Imo, that's what Mick pretty much did in Mamma Mia - and Sam said no then. Emphatically so. 10 minutes ago, SueB said: I don't think Sam blindly followed orders. I think Sam let warning signs go unchallenged. I think that is a fine razor's edge between the two. No, Sam didn't blindly follow "orders" but he did pretty much blindly accept and go along with the BMoL's plan for hunting monsters. Link to comment
catrox14 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, SueB said: When specifically faced with an objectionable 'pseudo-order': Kill Claire, kill Eileen -- he absolutely objected. He challenged Mick to not blindly follow the "Code." This is another reason why this whole idea that Sam had just been following them because it was easier really just falls apart for me. In this instance there was no psuedo order for Sam. In the field, Mick was not their boss, the field was their domain. So if anything it would have been Mick following Sam's lead which Mick did when Sam pushed him to use the cure that Mick was actually worried would kill Claire. Sam didn't know anything about the Code or Hogwart's Fight Club to the Death. Mick was going to kill Claire because she was a monster and that's what Mick was taught to do. Mick was going to kill Eileen because of the Code, which was the first time Sam ever heard about it AFAIR. I might be misunderstanding you here but neither of those things were about Sam following any psuedo or otherwise. 1 Link to comment
SueB May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, catrox14 said: This is another reason why this whole idea that Sam had just been following them because it was easier really just falls apart for me. In this instance there was no psuedo order for Sam. In the field, Mick was not their boss, the field was their domain. So if anything it would have been Mick following Sam's lead which Mick did when Sam pushed him to use the cure that Mick was actually worried would kill Claire. Sam didn't know anything about the Code or Hogwart's Fight Club to the Death. Mick was going to kill Claire because she was a monster and that's what Mick was taught to do. Mick was going to kill Eileen because of the Code, which was the first time Sam ever heard about it AFAIR. I might be misunderstanding you here but neither of those things were about Sam following any psuedo or otherwise. What I meant, in this case, was that while in the field, Mick was following "standard orders" and Sam rejected that. OTOH, "standard orders" also included getting a very nice hotel. Sam and Dean had no problem with those protocols. So, it's not a direct order, it's an indirect order. Mick, who gave them the case, took action for the team. And when Sam found out about it (killing the girl), he rightly objected. So I understand @RulerofallIsurvey's comment that this is a razor's edge thing. But I think it's more clear if you look at it from the "slow boiling frog" category*. When told something unambiguously unacceptable, the boys both actively balk. When given the room for rationalizing why they didn't need to take action (Mick is in London), they didn't. *Slow Boiling Frog analogy: - When place in a pot of boiling water, a frog will immediately hop out to save itself. It understands the danger and jumps. - When place in a cold pot of water and then the heat applied, the frog will keep adjusting it's internal temperature, not recognizing the danger. Eventually, by the time the water boils, the frog dies from heat because it kept trying to adjust rather than jump out. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 44 minutes ago, SueB said: Now Sam took ALL THE BLAME. But IMO, Dean owns every decision made once HE said "okay". In my UO today, I think Dean bears culpability that he didn't step up to. Yes, it was Sam who convinced Dean to give it a try. But Dean did NOT dump the BMoL when his spidey sense told him too. IF we had seen him arguing that maybe they should rethink this, THEN I'd give Dean a pass. But he didn't. So... I'm not happy the show placed all the blame on Sam. I have to say that I don't really get this. I'm not challenging you but I don't follow the logic. In retrospect, the narrative of the season for Dean was 'Dean feels angry, hurt, abandoned and resentful that Mary comes back and leaves but he must learn to let his loved ones make their own decisions and do what they think is best for them, regardless of what he thinks or how he feels about it". It was reinforced when Dean had to 'Let Sam go be the leader he was apparently never allowed to be because Dean was there or because Sam opted to follow' and again to trust his loved ones decision making. It seems to me that if the narrative is saying it is right and proper for Dean to let Sam go do his thing and even follow Sam's lead with joining the BMOL, then him not speaking up more than he did about his spidey sense...seems in line with whatever Dean is supposed to have learned this season. By Dean taking the blame for not following his spidey sense and speaking up more, in opposition to Sam, doesn't that somewhat undermine Dean's growth as the narrative played it? I'm not being snarky, I legitimately don't understand. 6 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Wait-What? I agree with "Sam found a place with neat toys that gave lip service to things he cared about" reason for him agreeing to join up, but the bolded part confuses me. Imo, that's what Mick pretty much did in Mamma Mia - and Sam said no then. Emphatically so. Sorry, I'm talking about way back at the start of the season. Like by the time Dean and Mary get there BMOL has already just rescued Sam and claimed Lady Idontrightlycare is a rogue agent. Told him and his family that they don't operate that way. And then offered all of them help with all the shiny toys, and lip service. See, Sam overwhelmed with his mom there, Dean alive and the offer that maybe his job might be finished before he's old/grey or dead would be a thing Sam could embrace. It would make Dean wary because they couldn't control their agents fully but on the flip side were proactive about stopping them once they went off the rails. Mary was still shell shocked but given her attitude about things probably would have been open to it and it would have made more sense. Then have the slow subtle reveal that they were actually evil and Lady Whatever was on the up and up as far as the BMOL was concerned would have worked far, far better for me. Having Sam join when he did then have Dean just shrug and say okay makes zero sense given what had happened up to that point. But that's my bitterness over how they handled the whole BMOL arc and the inclusion of Lucifer and his spawn. Seriously, the looming threat of Lucifer should have been enough for them to join forces at the start, and having Lucifer raze cities instead of whatever half assed plan he had would have made him a much more threatening villain. Then after Satan is dealt with it comes out that the BMOL have much darker goals with unanswered questions as to where exactly they've been through all other crisis becoming more pressing and yet unanswered. Then, the Winchesters band together and rally the American hunters to take on the BMOL, loosing what they once thought of as an ally but gaining new ground in their country for next seasons set up - And...I think I just depressed myself. 53 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: I think that is a fine razor's edge between the two. No, Sam didn't blindly follow "orders" but he did pretty much blindly accept and go along with the BMoL's plan for hunting monsters. While completely disregarding everything else. I don't think it sits well with the view or the audience. Then Sam makes a comment about following when he really wasn't, not fully. He wanted an easier way and didn't think about the consequences. He wanted someone else to lead instead of doing it himself which was the problem. He only wanted to follow when it lined up with him and stuck on blinders when things didn't line up, dragging his brother into the entire mess instead of dragging his mom out, no matter what a pain in the ass she is. Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 18 minutes ago, Airmid said: Sorry, I'm talking about way back at the start of the season. Like by the time Dean and Mary get there BMOL has already just rescued Sam and claimed Lady Idontrightlycare is a rogue agent. I'm confused. When was this? Mary actually began the Sam (and Dean) rescue and then Dean finished it by knocking out LadyRogueAgent. The BMOL guy came in after the rescuing was done. Anyway I think that's when you mean because you say Sam overwhelmed with his mom there, Dean alive. I must be confused about what your saying. Link to comment
catrox14 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 18 minutes ago, SueB said: What I meant, in this case, was that while in the field, Mick was following "standard orders" and Sam rejected that. OTOH, "standard orders" also included getting a very nice hotel. Sam and Dean had no problem with those protocols. So, it's not a direct order, it's an indirect order. Mick, who gave them the case, took action for the team. And when Sam found out about it (killing the girl), he rightly objected. So I understand @RulerofallIsurvey's comment that this is a razor's edge thing. But I think it's more clear if you look at it from the "slow boiling frog" category*. When told something unambiguously unacceptable, the boys both actively balk. When given the room for rationalizing why they didn't need to take action (Mick is in London), they didn't. *Slow Boiling Frog analogy: - When place in a pot of boiling water, a frog will immediately hop out to save itself. It understands the danger and jumps. - When place in a cold pot of water and then the heat applied, the frog will keep adjusting it's internal temperature, not recognizing the danger. Eventually, by the time the water boils, the frog dies from heat because it kept trying to adjust rather than jump out. It wasn't even an indirect order though. I don't see the boiling frog analogy at work here because Sam and certainly Dean were not inured into the BMOL culture like Mary had been. Dean went to their HQ once I think. Sam had gone at least a couple of times, Sam knew more than Dean like their ability to mass kill vampires, but I didn't have the sense that Sam knew ALL the things they were doing, like Hogwart's School of Death and he wasn't being trained on how to use rayguns of torture death IMO, Sam and Dean were basically unpaid contracted labor for the BMOL. They reported into Mick but Mick wasn't really their boss that I could see. They didn't have to follow Mick's orders like the military or something. They called into debrief to keep the order but it wasn't as though they were going to be demoted or kicked out of the BMOL for not reporting in. IMO they reported in as a courtesy more than following orders. There was no known punishment at hand if the boys didn't report in to Mick per se. And the boys didn't know they were targets for assimilation or elimination. And they seemed to do most of their communications by email, like Dean asking to be reimbursed for fuel costs( that made me laugh). So this sudden revelation that Sam had been following their lead and ignoring stuff ....doesn't really hold up for me. Mary is the one that got them in the mess. Mary is the one that saw everything they were doing but she never told Sam the real dirt behind all of it. Sam's big revelation that he just ignored what was under his nose, doesn't fly for me because well, he was working with them at a distance even though IMO he was slightly intrigued by the cool gadgets. I don't think he went in blindly either. I think he went in with his eyes partly open and they stayed that way the whole time until DUN DUN DUN the show needed the war to happen so Sam could step up and be a leader. 1 Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: I'm confused. When was this? Mary actually began the Sam (and Dean) rescue and then Dean finished it by knocking out LadyRogueAgent. The BMOL guy came in after the rescuing was done. Anyway I think that's when you mean because you say Sam overwhelmed with his mom there, Dean alive. I must be confused about what your saying. Originally I was talking about what I felt it should have been rather than the timing. RulerofallISurvey quoted me and asked what I meant, which I was trying to clarifying it as - my own thought process as how any of the Winchester's should have joined. This is the original quote: 2 hours ago, Airmid said: I think that's why Sam was so gun ho on joining the BMOL but he should have wised up a bit sooner and the time of him joining was just bad given some of the stuff with Mary already at that point. If they had swooped in, 'rescued' him from LadyIdontgiveafuck and offered him the same kind of deal I could see him taking it. Excitedly so And Ruler asking me what I meant, thinking I meant it as what happened instead of what did: 1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Wait-What? I agree with "Sam found a place with neat toys that gave lip service to things he cared about" reason for him agreeing to join up, but the bolded part confuses me. Imo, that's what Mick pretty much did in Mamma Mia - and Sam said no then. Emphatically so. My original was what I thought would have made more sense for Sam and his joining, not later on. My fault for not clarifying my though process on that one, but I thought I did later on with: 42 minutes ago, Airmid said: Then have the slow subtle reveal that they were actually evil and Lady Whatever was on the up and up as far as the BMOL was concerned would have worked far, far better for me. Having Sam join when he did then have Dean just shrug and say okay makes zero sense given what had happened up to that point. Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, Airmid said: Originally I was talking about what I felt it should have been rather than the timing. RulerofallISurvey quoted me and asked what I meant, which I was trying to clarifying it as - my own thought process as how any of the Winchester's should have joined. This is the original quote: And Ruler asking me what I meant, thinking I meant it as what happened instead of what did: My original was what I thought would have made more sense for Sam and his joining, not later on. My fault for not clarifying my though process on that one, but I thought I did later on with: So you were saying that you would have preferred the BMoL to rescue Sam INSTEAD of Mary and Dean doing it. Did I get it right this time? Link to comment
Airmid May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 35 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: So you were saying that you would have preferred the BMoL to rescue Sam INSTEAD of Mary and Dean doing it. Did I get it right this time? Essentially. Seeing as I am confusing today (I blame it on lack of coffee which will be rectified soon): If they had wanted the family to team up with BMOL I would have liked to have seen it at the very start. Sure, still have Dean and Mary get there but find they're minutes behind this brand new group. They all talk, and offer is made and things start to roll with cooperation. Lucifer is actually a vengeful archangel not just a teenage with angst and parental issues and is a real threat. Then after dealing with Lucifer's aftermath the BMOL, which has subtly been portrayed as maybe having dark intentions starts to feel off. At that point, the Winchesters pull out and rally the American hunters and they overthrow and take down the BMOL operations in the US while strengthening their own relations. (add in other details I had above). That's what I would have liked to have seen. I was upset because Mary joining was kind of 'what', Sam joining was a 'come here and let me whack you upside the head' moment after everything up to that point, and Dean following Sam made me wonder if that boy was taking drugs. I thought the 'If' in my original statement made it clear way back. Next time I'll try to make it crystal as to what I'm saying and I can see how it would be even more confusing coming in and just seeing my answering post. :) Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Airmid said: Essentially. Seeing as I am confusing today (I blame it on lack of coffee which will be rectified soon): If they had wanted the family to team up with BMOL I would have liked to have seen it at the very start. Sure, still have Dean and Mary get there but find they're minutes behind this brand new group. They all talk, and offer is made and things start to roll with cooperation. Lucifer is actually a vengeful archangel not just a teenage with angst and parental issues and is a real threat. Then after dealing with Lucifer's aftermath the BMOL, which has subtly been portrayed as maybe having dark intentions starts to feel off. At that point, the Winchesters pull out and rally the American hunters and they overthrow and take down the BMOL operations in the US while strengthening their own relations. (add in other details I had above). That's what I would have liked to have seen. I was upset because Mary joining was kind of 'what', Sam joining was a 'come here and let me whack you upside the head' moment after everything up to that point, and Dean following Sam made me wonder if that boy was taking drugs. I thought the 'If' in my original statement made it clear way back. Next time I'll try to make it crystal as to what I'm saying and I can see how it would be even more confusing coming in and just seeing my answering post. :) I follow now :-) Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 Quote It seems to me that if the narrative is saying it is right and proper for Dean to let Sam go do his thing and even follow Sam's lead with joining the BMOL, then him not speaking up more than he did about his spidey sense...seems in line with whatever Dean is supposed to have learned this season. I don`t even think Dean was supposed to learn anything beyond the usual "he does feelings wrong" and "he has to step back and let others do what they want" but those are usually also just plot points. Which can morph into the exact opposite on a dime if the plot demands that. Like "step back and let Sam be the hero" in Season 5 morphed into voice-of-show-Bobby telling him that no matter how creeped out Dean was, Sam was his job/responsibility and he had to godamn do it. The point of the BMOL story was IMO about Sam. Dean was a plot point, that`s why we had the progression of Sam "I work on him" which is kinda already unilateral decisions for both, then lying and manipulating and then at the end of the ep Dean just goes "whatever, I`m also in". It was just as much an about face as Sam`s joining up but it was a necessary plot point to keep them together on hunts. In the end Sam has another totally random idea about leadership. When joining up with the BMOL had nothing to do with leadership or not. But Dean was mute in that scene. Dean having leadership abilities or not or his thoughts on the BMOL or not were not discussed in that episode. Because that had nothing to do with Sam`s plot. And he didn`t really get the blame, he got the hero moment. If Dean had gotten the same kind of "blame", they would have had to split the "big man on campus" moment of leadership between Dean and Sam and not have Dean sit on the chair like all the other adoring flunkies. It`s either one or the other: ignore Dean in both the set-up and the resolve or include him in both. You can`t cherry-pick. They chose option A because he just randomely served that plot at various times but it was never supposed to be about him. Apparently his "plot" in Season 12 was coming to terms with the crushing disappointment that was his resurrected mother. Meanwhile Cas and Crowley kinda shared the Lucifer/Spawn plot. So you could say everyone had a "storyline", using the term loosely, I just thought each one sucked. 4 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 7 hours ago, Idahoforspn said: I got exactly the opposite out of after school special. Sam left that school having been encouraged by a teacher to follow his own dreams and that's just what he did. He studied hard and went off to college. It wasn't until after Jessica's death that he gave up his dream (sort of) and he gave it up for revenge. Also in After School Special, Sam was shown as the one in the end who fit in and had friends. Dean was shown as the outcast. That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the anvil moral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway. And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this... Quote Mr: Wyatt: So, what was this advice? I might need to plagiarize myself down the line.Sam: You told me that I didn't have to go into the family business. You said I should make my own choices.Mr. Wyatt: So you've managed to do your own thing, then, huh?Sam: Yeah, for a while, yeah. And I think I went to college because of you. But, you know, people grow up. In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone. And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all? For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful. [Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.] 7 hours ago, Idahoforspn said: This was after Dean was 16 and embraced the life. Personally, I think he probably somewhere deep down felt he didn't have a lot of options by then. My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case. My opinion on that. 8 hours ago, Idahoforspn said: I got the impression Dean was just trying to come up with something to say their Christmas's hadn't been totally pathetic. Pretty sad when a beer wreath is all you can come up with in my opinion. It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly. 8 hours ago, Idahoforspn said: Sam was trying to convince Dean that it had been worth it for Dean. Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to: Quote Sam: Yeah... I thought it was supposed to, to be this perfect fantasy. Dean: It wasn't. It was just a wish. I wished for Mom to live. That Mom never died, we never went hunting and you and me just never uh... you know. Sam: Yeah. Well, I'm glad we do. And I'm glad you dug yourself out, Dean. Most people wouldn't've had the strength, would have just stayed. 4 Link to comment
Katy M May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, I don't think sam was trying to be "cool." He was sticking up for his friend, Barry. Whom Dirk was hassling on a fairly regular basis. It's really hard for me to feel THAT bad for Dirk. I mean, I do about his mom. But, if he weren't bullying Barry, Sam wouldn't have had to stick up for him and nobody would ave been calling him names. And, I have to say, Dirk the JErk would have been about the nices thing I would have been called when I was in school. My last name rhymes with a bodily function and my first name rhymes with a toilet. Thanks, Mom and dad. Edited June 1, 2017 by Katy M 2 Link to comment
Idahoforspn May 31, 2017 Share May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the anvil moral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway. And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this... In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone. And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all? For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful. [Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.] My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case. My opinion on that. It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly. Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to: However the original discussion we were having, I thought, was Dean's childhood as opposed to Sam's childhood so the flashbacks were what was relevant to the original topic . What Sam found out going back as an adult wasn't relevant to what his thoughts were as a child. 1 Link to comment
Idahoforspn June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the anvil moral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway. And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this... In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone. And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all? For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful. [Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.] My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case. My opinion on that. It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly. Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to: After School Special is one of the three or four episodes I usually skip entirely on a rewatch. I understand what you are saying about adult Sam in this episode.I thought the writing for adult Sam and young Dean were depressing and just plain bad so we agree there and on a lot of the points you made as far as adult Sam. As far as Dean blaming Sam for having to give up his Dreams, I don't think Dean blamed Sam. I think he just felt that maybe life hadn't given him a chance in a lot of ways. I don't think Dean is capable of blaming Sam for his (Dean's) life. 1 Link to comment
Idahoforspn June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the anvil moral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway. And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this... In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone. And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all? For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful. [Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.] My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case. My opinion on that. It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly. Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to: I think the "I'm glad we do" had more to do with being with Dean and not having lost Dean to the Djin than being happy hunting. 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said: However the original discussion we were having, I thought, was Dean's childhood as opposed to Sam's childhood so the flashbacks were what was relevant to the original topic . I think that the original discussion was about episodes where one brother learned something in a sympathetic way about the other's childhood, and I was saying that I would like an episode where Dean learns something about Sam's childhood. You mentioned "Just My Imagination" and I agreed that was one, and maybe there were two if one was to count "Afterschool Special," but my opinion was that the main point of that episode wasn't for Dean to learn something about Sam's childhood or even to show Sam's childhood sympathetically per se which is why I said: 17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Two if we include "Afterschool Special," but that episode wasn't really sympathizing with Sam as much as showing Sam that his dreams really weren't important anyway and that he should have given them up for family. so I didn't think that episode really counted towards Dean learning something about Sam's childhood. (But I was acknowledging that to some it might.) And that's in contrast, in my opinion, to the multiple episodes where Sam learns and/or realizes something significant about Dean's childhood: Dead in the Water, Something Wicked, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Dark Side of the Moon*, and Bad Boys that I can remember - I may be forgetting one or two. There was also the time Sam found out that Dean was the one who carried him out of the house as a baby, but I don't remember what episode that was offhand, so it might be one of the episodes already mentioned. I also remember a few more details that Sam learns about Dean's childhood - I think - like that Mary gave Dean tomato rice soup when he was sick and sang "Hey Jude" as a lullaby, but I don't think those were main parts of whatever episodes those were and might've also been in one of the mentioned episodes, and were somewhat about Mary, so... Basically my point was that unless I'm forgetting something - which is very possible - it took 11 seasons for us to get an episode where Dean had a sympathetic realization about Sam's childhood. * I suppose this episode could also count for Sam, though I'm not sure Dean really learned anything in a "very special lesson" sort of way as much as he got angry about what he learned and/or dismissed it. Edited to add: I should probably mention "Plucky Pennywhistles..." Dean did learn that Sam didn't like being dropped off there after all. I'm not sure how big of a revelation on Sam's childhood that really was, but supposed I should mention it for completeness. 43 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: After School Special is one of the three or four episodes I usually skip entirely on a rewatch. I understand what you are saying about adult Sam in this episode.I thought the writing for adult Sam and young Dean were depressing and just plain bad so we agree there and on a lot of the points you made as far as adult Sam. I do, too. Actually I generally skip a lot of season 4 on rewatch, and mainly because of this episode... once I got hit with the anvil this episode was trying to tell me, I got very annoyed with the season as a whole, because I had a pretty good idea that very little of the season was going to be looked at from Sam's point of view - at least sympathetically. I also disagreed with the premise that Sam going to college = abandoning the family that "Afterschool Special" seemed to be trying to tell me. And because the message of that episode bugs the crap out of me, I took a moment to vent some bitterness on it... sorry about that, but it was cathartic, so... 37 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: I think the "I'm glad we do" had more to do with being with Dean and not having lost Dean to the Djin than being happy hunting. I agree that it was more about being with Dean, but my point was that being close with Dean and hunting is pretty much a two for one package, and based on how Sam says "I'm glad we do" (get along and are together), in my opinion, that's Sam admitting that having such a close bond with Dean and working with him (i.e. hunting) was worth giving up the college dream of being a lawyer... In other words "I'm glad we do" to me is Sam saying that Sam would rather be with Dean, hunting, than have gone to college to become a lawyer and not being with Dean. For me this was reaffirming that Sam, knowing what he did now, didn't regret giving up college to stay with Dean. For me it was a very important admission from Sam. Edited June 1, 2017 by AwesomO4000 3 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Katy M said: I don't think sam was trying to be "cool." He was sticking up for his friend, Barry. The "being cool" part was for me Sam's addition of "Dirk the Jerk." I agree with you about most of the rest... and sympathize on the teasing. My name wasn't that bad - though it was the same as the grade school's name, so the kids said some derogatory things concerning that - but they found other things to focus on. Link to comment
Idahoforspn June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I think that the original discussion was about episodes where one brother learned something in a sympathetic way about the other's childhood, This is the first part of our discussion: 20 HOURS AGO, AWESOMO4000 SAID: I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @CATROX14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere, Me: Dean knew exactly what it was like to not feel like he fit in anywhere. It could be argued that his childhood was more difficult than Sam's. Sam had Dean as a pseudo Mom and Dad because, as Dean said to Mary, Dad was a "shell" of a man. Who did Dean have? And it was thrown in Dean's face a lot that his family didn't need him like he needed them. It is Canon that Dean was the buffer between Sam because of what he wanted and John and what he wanted from Sam. Who cared about what Dean wanted. We are never given anything to show either Sam or his Dad were concerned about what Dean wanted. Actually, Dean said all he wanted was to be a family. Did we ever see any effort by Sam or John to try for Dean's sake. According to the shifter, Dean had dreams too. Who cared about them. Who was there to steal Christmas presents for Dean? Who was there to give up Lucky Charms for Dean? Where was Dean's imaginery friend? I actually have more sympathy for Dean than Sam as far as their childhood. He didn't have anybody. I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought we were still talking about Sam's childhood and Dean's. 8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: and I was saying that I would like an episode where Dean learns something about Sam's childhood. You mentioned "Just My Imagination" and I agreed that was one, and maybe there were two if one was to count "Afterschool Special," but my opinion was that the main point of that episode wasn't for Dean to learn something about Sam's childhood or even to show Sam's childhood sympathetically per se which is why I said: My comment back on After school Special was: I got exactly the opposite out of after school special. Sam left that school having been encouraged by a teacher to follow his own dreams and that's just what he did. He studied hard and went off to college. It wasn't until after Jessica's death that he gave up his dream (sort of) and he gave it up for revenge. Also in After School Special, Sam was shown as the one in the end who fit in and had friends. Dean was shown as the outcast. Again, I guess we were kind of talking about different things. 8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: so I didn't think that episode really counted towards Dean learning something about Sam's childhood. (But I was acknowledging that to some it might.) And that's in contrast, in my opinion, to the multiple episodes where Sam learns and/or realizes something significant about Dean's childhood: Dead in the Water, Something Wicked, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Dark Side of the Moon*, and Bad Boys. that I can remember - I may be forgetting one. I do remember a few more details that Sam learns about Dean's childhood - I think - like that Mary giving Dean tomato rice soup and singing "Hey Jude" as a lullaby, but I don't think those were main parts of whatever episodes those were, and were more about Mary, so... Basically my point was that unless I'm forgetting something - which is very possible - it took 11 seasons for us to get an episode where Dean had a sympathetic realization about Sam's childhood. * I suppose this episode could also count for Sam, though I'm not sure Dean really learned anything in a "very special lesson" sort of way as much as he got angry about what he learned and/or dismissed it. I do, too. Actually I generally skip a lot of season 4 on rewatch, and mainly because of this episode... once I got hit with the anvil this episode was trying to tell me, I got very annoyed with the season as a whole, because I had a pretty good idea that very little of the season was going to be looked at from Sam's point of view - at least sympathetically. I also disagreed with the premise that Sam going to college = abandoning the family that "Afterschool Special" seemed to be trying to tell me. And because the message of that episode bugs the crap out of me, I took a moment to vent some bitterness on it... sorry about that, but it was cathartic, so... I agree that it was more about being with Dean, but my point was that being close with Dean and hunting is pretty much a two for one package, and based on how Sam says "I'm glad we do" (get along and are together), in my opinion, that's Sam admitting that having such a close bond with Dean and working with him (i.e. hunting) was worth giving up the college dream of being a lawyer... In other words "I'm glad we do" to me is Sam saying that Sam would rather be with Dean, hunting, than have gone to college to become a lawyer and not being with Dean. For me this was reaffirming that Sam, knowing what he did now, didn't regret giving up college to stay with Dean. For me it was a very important admission from Sam. That would work if the show didn't have Sam multiple times after that say he wanted to quit hunting and he wanted a normal life. The first time Sam actually embraced hunting on a permanent basis was when he was talking about MoC Dean with Charlie. That's when Sam said for the first time that he loved hunting. Anyway, that's the first time that he hasn't contradicted himself at a later point that I remember. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought we were still talking about Sam's childhood and Dean's. No problem. My focus of the "Afterschool Special" discussion came from this comment from me: Quote I'd' like to see an episode where Dean got some young Sam perspective and maybe understood it a little better... And that's how we got into "Just My Imagination" (JMI) and "Afterschool Special" of which I was saying that I only thought the first really counted as Dean seeing some childhood Sam perspective, because even though "Afterschool Special" also had young Sam stuff... it's focus wasn't Sam sympathetic for me. So yes, we were on different tangents. Unfortunately I know a lot of people dislike JMI and consider it a retcon (I strongly disagree and have explained why, but I know many don't agree), so not only is it the only Dean learns something significant about Sam's childhood episode that I can think of, but it's a highly divisive one to boot. So that's frustrating in my opinion and why I'd like to see more. 27 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: That would work if the show didn't have Sam multiple times after that say he wanted to quit hunting and he wanted a normal life. The first time Sam actually embraced hunting on a permanent basis was when he was talking about MoC Dean with Charlie. That's when Sam said for the first time that he loved hunting. Anyway, that's the first time that he hasn't contradicted himself at a later point that I remember. I actually disagree with this. I could be wrong, but I can't recall Sam mentioning wanting a normal life after WIaWSNB until it somehow pops up in season 8 (which I think that season was a retcon of Sam's character anyway.) Generally, that I remember, Sam mentions the opposite. A normal life is more shown in reference to Dean than Sam in the middles seasons, in my opinion. We see it referenced in Dean's dream in "Dream a Little Dream of Me," for example. The main thing that pops into my head concerning Sam and a normal, apple pie life was Sam's dismissal of it in "Swap Meat." Sam did say "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" in "Chris Angel..." but that wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of a normal life. I'm not even sure what it meant. Except for season 8, can you give me an example of Sam saying he wants to quit hunting and/or have a normal life after WIaWSNB? And I'm being serious here, because I really can't recall anything and am wondering if I've been missing something important in my assessment of Sam over the years. 1 Link to comment
Idahoforspn June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: No problem. My focus of the "Afterschool Special" discussion came from this comment from me: And that's how we got into "Just My Imagination" (JMI) and "Afterschool Special" of which I was saying that I only thought the first really counted as Dean seeing some childhood Sam perspective, because even though "Afterschool Special" also had young Sam stuff... it's focus wasn't Sam sympathetic for me. So yes, we were on different tangents. Unfortunately I know a lot of people dislike JMI and consider it a retcon (I strongly disagree and have explained why, but I know many don't agree), so not only is it the only Dean learns something significant about Sam's childhood episode that I can think of, but it's a highly divisive one to boot. So that's frustrating in my opinion and why I'd like to see more. I actually disagree with this. I could be wrong, but I can't recall Sam mentioning wanting a normal life after WIaWSNB until it somehow pops up in season 8 (which I think that season was a retcon of Sam's character anyway.) Generally, that I remember, Sam mentions the opposite. A normal life is more shown in reference to Dean than Sam in the middles seasons, in my opinion. We see it referenced in Dean's dream in "Dream a Little Dream of Me," for example. The main thing that pops into my head concerning Sam and a normal, apple pie life was Sam's dismissal of it in "Swap Meat." Sam did say "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" in "Chris Angel..." but that wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of a normal life. I'm not even sure what it meant. Except for season 8, can you give me an example of Sam saying he wants to quit hunting and/or have a normal life after WIaWSNB? And I'm being serious here, because I really can't recall anything and am wondering if I've been missing something important in my assessment of Sam over the years. The ones I automatically think of are 8 and 9 so I will have to think about it. I will check but it may be a while. I start 4 days of intense recertifications tomorrow and will have little time until next week. Are you ok waiting until then? Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 (edited) Quote Unfortunately I know a lot of people dislike JMI and consider it a retcon Well, I don't think Just My Imagination is a retcon but I'm not too fond of the episode. I really want to like it, just for the Zanna alone, but I feel like they took a lot of complexity and nuance out of Sam in that episode. However, the "shower" discussion will never not be funny. "Pull up, pull up!!" ;) Edited June 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot Link to comment
SueB June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 Having watched JMI again today (BLESS TNT FOR FEEDING MY OBSESSION!), I was tidying up the room with the TV on and promptly sat down to fully relish the bedroom scene again. That actress gets all the love from me for just 'going for it' with a straight face. I can't imagine HOW they finished that scene without peeing their pants. 6 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 29 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said: Are you ok waiting until then? Yes, no problem. This is something I've seen talked about a lot, but I've never gotten an answer, so waiting a little longer is fine with me. 25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I really want to like it, just for the Zanna alone, but I feel like they took a lot of complexity and nuance out of Sam in that episode. Interesting, because it actually gave Sam more complexity for me. I had originally been swayed into thinking that Sam had just always wanted "normal" rather than his own family ever since he found out about John hunting and so this is why Sam and John just didn't get along... that John represented hunting and "not normal." But "Just My Imagination" showed me that Sam actually did at first want to be part of his family and thought that he could make that work. But somewhere along the way that didn't work out. Even though John did let Sam come along and be part of the family business, Sam somehow still didn't feel like he fit in there. So maybe it was less that Sam had wlways been looking for "normal" and more that he was trying to find a way to belong to something, and he thought that "normal" and "safe" would do it. In addition, I didn't take Sam being an actual lonely kid sometimes to mean that that was the only reason Sam was lonely, because that still doesn't change what we saw in "Pilot:" a Sam who was still somewhat unwilling to go socialize (Jess had to talk him into the party and he wouldn't dress up) and later on - I think in season 2? - Sam admitted that he never really felt like he fit in. "Just My Imagination" didn't change any of that for me. So the end result was that the episode added a little more to Sam's character for me. But I get that miles will vary. 4 Link to comment
Wayward Son June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: There was also the time Sam found out that Dean was the one who carried him out of the house as a baby, but I don't remember what episode that was offhand, so it might be one of the episodes already mentioned. Sam found out about Dean carrying him out the door during Home. It was while Dean was discussing what he recalled of the night Mary died. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 46 minutes ago, Wayward Son said: Sam found out about Dean carrying him out the door during Home. It was while Dean was discussing what he recalled of the night Mary died. Ah, yes, thank you. I thought I remembered it not being a main part of the episode, even though it was another piece of Dean's childhood Sam found out about. Link to comment
ILoveReading June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 13 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: I don`t even think Dean was supposed to learn anything beyond the usual "he does feelings wrong" and "he has to step back and let others do what they want" but those are usually also just plot points. Which can morph into the exact opposite on a dime if the plot demands that. Like "step back and let Sam be the hero" in Season 5 morphed into voice-of-show-Bobby telling him that no matter how creeped out Dean was, Sam was his job/responsibility and he had to godamn do it. The point of the BMOL story was IMO about Sam. Dean was a plot point, that`s why we had the progression of Sam "I work on him" which is kinda already unilateral decisions for both, then lying and manipulating and then at the end of the ep Dean just goes "whatever, I`m also in". It was just as much an about face as Sam`s joining up but it was a necessary plot point to keep them together on hunts. In the end Sam has another totally random idea about leadership. When joining up with the BMOL had nothing to do with leadership or not. But Dean was mute in that scene. Dean having leadership abilities or not or his thoughts on the BMOL or not were not discussed in that episode. Because that had nothing to do with Sam`s plot. And he didn`t really get the blame, he got the hero moment. If Dean had gotten the same kind of "blame", they would have had to split the "big man on campus" moment of leadership between Dean and Sam and not have Dean sit on the chair like all the other adoring flunkies. It`s either one or the other: ignore Dean in both the set-up and the resolve or include him in both. You can`t cherry-pick. They chose option A because he just randomely served that plot at various times but it was never supposed to be about him. Apparently his "plot" in Season 12 was coming to terms with the crushing disappointment that was his resurrected mother. Meanwhile Cas and Crowley kinda shared the Lucifer/Spawn plot. So you could say everyone had a "storyline", using the term loosely, I just thought each one sucked. This is precisely why I see none of the supposed character growth for Dean. I didn't see him do (or not do) anything he hasn't mutliple times since season 1. IMO, its not speaking his mind that Dean needs to learn how to do. He's done that every season. What he needs to learn to do is stand up for himself, especially against his family. He needs to learn to not take things back just because his words might might people uncomfortable. What does it matter if Dean speaks his mind if he never does it when it counts. He could have told Mary he will always be there because she's him mom and left it at that. Or when Sam lied to him about working for the Brits. Dean was clearly uncomfortable and wanted no part of it but the show needs the brothers to "be on the same page." So they just had Dean roll over. A well written show would have allowed Dean voice here. The problems is the brothers were never on the same page over the brits, the writers just refused to allow Dean voice his objection. I felt Jensen did a great job making his displeasure known even if the writers gave him no lines. Same with his confrontation with Mary. Dean talked about how much Sam suffered because of the deal, and how Dean failed Sam. It just shows that Dean still doesn't understand that what he went thought matters too. It's also why I don't see the relationship as equal. It still very clearly revolves around Sam's want and needs. We see that Sam wants to work with the Brits. He didn't give a damn what Dean might want, or how much Mary's lies hurt Dean. " Nope its just, this is what I want and I'll make sure it happens." Then he manipulated Dean to make sure he got what he wanted. I'm not saying that Sam has to clear everything with Dean, but if its an equal relationship he owes it to Dean to be honest with him. "Dean, I'm working for these guys. I think they can make a difference. I hope you'll back me but if not, I get it" or something like that." For me, the relationship can't be equal until Dean sees his wants, needs and past matter just as much as Sam's and the show allows him to verbalize those and not be shamed into taking it back. This season, Dean didn't seem confident, he seemed like he finally broke. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Yes, no problem. This is something I've seen talked about a lot, but I've never gotten an answer, so waiting a little longer is fine with me. Interesting, because it actually gave Sam more complexity for me. I had originally been swayed into thinking that Sam had just always wanted "normal" rather than his own family ever since he found out about John hunting and so this is why Sam and John just didn't get along... that John represented hunting and "not normal." But "Just My Imagination" showed me that Sam actually did at first want to be part of his family and thought that he could make that work. But somewhere along the way that didn't work out. Even though John did let Sam come along and be part of the family business, Sam somehow still didn't feel like he fit in there. So maybe it was less that Sam had wlways been looking for "normal" and more that he was trying to find a way to belong to something, and he thought that "normal" and "safe" would do it. In addition, I didn't take Sam being an actual lonely kid sometimes to mean that that was the only reason Sam was lonely, because that still doesn't change what we saw in "Pilot:" a Sam who was still somewhat unwilling to go socialize (Jess had to talk him into the party and he wouldn't dress up) and later on - I think in season 2? - Sam admitted that he never really felt like he fit in. "Just My Imagination" didn't change any of that for me. So the end result was that the episode added a little more to Sam's character for me. But I get that miles will vary. I've always felt like Sam was a lonely kid because he always felt there was something wrong with him; he felt like he was figuratively alone.. Just My Imagination presented it as Sam was lonely because he was literally alone, IMO. I just find the literal approach far less complex and interesting. 1 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I've always felt like Sam was a lonely kid because he always felt there was something wrong with him; he felt like he was figuratively alone.. Just My Imagination presented it as Sam was lonely because he was literally alone, IMO. I just find the literal approach far less complex and interesting. Ironically, this episode had the effect of showing just how figuratively alone Dean was. A big part of why that episode didn't work for me was that it had the opposite effect. It just left me feeling bad for Dean and highlighting how he really had no one looking out for him. Sam had Zanna, at least one teacher, John and Dean. Who did Dean have? I felt it also highlighted just why Dean probably feels like he was never good enough. He had to be there for Sam and John. If he stayed with Sam he would have been letting John down, and if he stays with John he lets Sam down. He needed be able to be in two places at once. No wonder he feels like he failed. Plus, Sully's advice wasn't the best. You don't encourage a 9 year old to run away. Also someone really needed to be the voice of reason in regards to the cage. It wasn't about being courage it was about common sense. Why did no one stop and point out that Lucifer hates humanity so why would he help them defeat Amara? The whole rushing to Lucifer just made Sam look gullible. Given John and Dean's dislike of all things supernatural, if Sam started talking to an imaginary friend, I don't just see Dean or John taking that in stride. Or accepting it as a natural part of childhood since they didn't have natural childhoods. Even if the writers didn't intend to make Dean look neglectful, there was no way to avoid it with the whole concept of the episode. 3 Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 18 hours ago, Airmid said: Sorry, I'm talking about way back at the start of the season.<snip> But that's my bitterness over how they handled the whole BMOL arc and the inclusion of Lucifer and his spawn. Okay - I understand now! I thought you were talking about what did happen, not what you wished had happened. My bad. Sometimes I confuse easily. :) Reading your responses to @Idahoforspn helped also. Thanks for explaining! :) Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Even if the writers didn't intend to make Dean look neglectful, there was no way to avoid it with the whole concept of the episode. Sorry, I didn't see that Dean was neglectful at all. 2 Link to comment
ILoveReading June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said: Sorry, I didn't see that Dean was neglectful at all. But if Dean wasn't neglectful and couldn't meet Sam's needs why did he need a Zanna in the first place? Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey June 1, 2017 Share June 1, 2017 10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Except for season 8, can you give me an example of Sam saying he wants to quit hunting and/or have a normal life after WIaWSNB? And I'm being serious here, because I really can't recall anything and am wondering if I've been missing something important in my assessment of Sam over the years. I haven't read your other posts in the thread yet, so I don't know if you might have addressed this elsewhere. My (probably UO) on this is - I don't think Sam wants to get out of hunting anymore. (He said to Mary in Mamma Mia, "This is my family. We hunt" or something like that.) But I do think he still wants something more in addition to hunting. When Dean made the comment in Asa Fox about how going out on the job was the best way to go, Sam questioned that. 31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I've always felt like Sam was a lonely kid because he always felt there was something wrong with him; he felt like he was figuratively alone.. Just My Imagination presented it as Sam was lonely because he was literally alone, IMO. I just find the literal approach far less complex and interesting. Can't it be both? Literal and figurative? I mean, sure he had Sully, so it wasn't quite so literal, but sometimes you can feel lonely even with other people around. 2 Link to comment
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