S06.E08: The Summit

[Colleenna]

4 hours ago, hellmouse said:

And she did say that Elizabeth needed to take care of him "today or tomorrow". So she may be thinking, okay it wasn't today, but we still have tomorrow. 

Maybe if Elizabeth still won't do it, Claudia will go after him herself the way she did back in Season 1 when Elizabeth kidnapped but didn't kill Patterson. 

Or maybe Claudia will have Paige do it.

Just my personal opinion, but I see the story arc ending with P&E turning themselves in to Stan in exchange for protection. That's where I would go with the story. And spilling everything they know to bring down the spy cell...starting with Claudia.

[Darrenbrett]

40 minutes ago, Colleenna said:

Just my personal opinion, but I see the story arc ending with P&E turning themselves in to Stan in exchange for protection. That's where I would go with the story. And spilling everything they know to bring down the spy cell...starting with Claudia.

I just don't see this happening, for a couple of different reasons.

1.) It's just too clean. This show doesn't usually opt for that option.
2.) It would feel anti-climactic.
3.) It's one thing for Elizabeth to question whether her orders are coming from "the Party", as she did in the last episode. It's another thing entirely for her to go over to the Americans. Just don't see that happening. She'll stay loyal to her Soviet ideals right up until the end.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Darrenbrett

[Milburn Stone]

From the recap:

Quote

"After you've taken care of him," says Claudia, "we'll make a slight alteration to the reports you've been making on him so it appears he was trading away a highly classified defense program for Gorbachev." "They told me you didn't know about that," Elizabeth breathes. "We were protecting you," says Claudia, adding, "I'm sure you understand there's a chance that this could go badly. As long as you didn't know all of these details, nothing would happen to you. If it didn't work out, you were just doing your job." Elizabeth squints: "And if it does work out?" "We quietly take these reports to certain members of the Central Committee, key military leaders, and regional Party secretaries who understand the situation we're in," Claudia tells her. "Enough of them will be outraged. Gorbachev will be removed! He probably won't even come back home." Elizabeth, still quietly horrified, asks, "So: Mexico. Everything. It was all this. To get rid of Gorbachev."

I'm so lost. When Claudia talks about the plan "working out" or "not working out," is she talking about the assassination of Nesterenko? What would "not working out" consist of? Surely she didn't anticipate Elizabeth getting cold feet altogether, so that can't be what "not working out" means. For that matter, how does "working out" (if that means successful assassination) protect The Centre? Surely Gorbachev would know who was behind the assassination. (Is that what "this could go badly" means? If so, how is Elizabeth protected?) And back to "not working out," how would "not working out" protect Elizabeth as "just doing her job"? An attempted but failed assassination (which is all I can imagine "not working out" to mean) would point to The Centre (since the Americans have no motive to kill Nesterenko) and then to Elizabeth. 

Or did "working/not working out" have to do not with the Nesterenko assassination, but the procurement of the radiation-detection technology?

Help!

Edited May 21, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Dev F]

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm so lost. When Claudia talks about the plan "working out" or "not working out," is she talking about the assassination of Nesterenko? What would "not working out" consist of? Surely she didn't anticipate Elizabeth getting cold feet altogether, so that can't be what "not working out" means. For that matter, how does "working out" (if that means successful assassination) protect The Centre? Surely Gorbachev would know who was behind the assassination. (Is that what "this could go badly" means? If so, how is Elizabeth protected?) And back to "not working out," how would "not working out" protect Elizabeth as "just doing her job"? An attempted but failed assassination (which is all I can imagine "not working out" to mean) would point to The Centre (since the Americans have no motive to kill Nesterenko) and then to Elizabeth.

I think "working out" refers to the whole plan -- framing and killing Nesterenko, and using falsified reports of his treachery to depose Gorbachev. If it "works out" in that sense, everyone would know that the KGB had killed Nesterenko, but they would think it's because he was betraying Soviet military secrets at Gorbachev's behest.

"Not working out" would probably mean exactly what's already happening via Arkady: someone sympathetic to Gorbachev in the chain of command finds out about the plot and exposes it. In that case, a lower-level conspirator like Elizabeth could honestly say that she thought she was investigating legitimate concerns over Gorbachev and Nesterenko, rather than made-up ones.

It doesn't, however, explain the last stage in the plan, in which they give the order to assassinate Nesterenko to the one officer who's been investigating him all along and knows he's innocent! If it's so important to keep the lower-level folks clean, wouldn't you send an assassin who wouldn't immediately know that the execution is being carried out under false pretenses?

[dubbel zout]

Would Elizabeth normally listen to the tape of Nesterenko? Because that's what clued her in that he was negotiating in good faith and made her decide she wasn't going to kill him (in addition to her burgeoning conscience).

[Milburn Stone]

37 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I think "working out" refers to the whole plan -- framing and killing Nesterenko, and using falsified reports of his treachery to depose Gorbachev. If it "works out" in that sense, everyone would know that the KGB had killed Nesterenko, but they would think it's because he was betraying Soviet military secrets at Gorbachev's behest.

"Not working out" would probably mean exactly what's already happening via Arkady: someone sympathetic to Gorbachev in the chain of command finds out about the plot and exposes it. In that case, a lower-level conspirator like Elizabeth could honestly say that she thought she was investigating legitimate concerns over Gorbachev and Nesterenko, rather than made-up ones.

It doesn't, however, explain the last stage in the plan, in which they give the order to assassinate Nesterenko to the one officer who's been investigating him all along and knows he's innocent! If it's so important to keep the lower-level folks clean, wouldn't you send an assassin who wouldn't immediately know that the execution is being carried out under false pretenses?

Your explanation--which is helpful--makes me realize there's yet another thing I didn't understand, but now think I do. Namely, in what Elizabeth has heard Nesterenko say, what is exculpatory in her opinion. Tell me if I'm right. She expected to hear him offer up a surrender of Dead Hand. But he didn't. He instead is talking about mutual disarmament. Which means she now knows what the general told her in Mexico was a lie. Yes?

But under the "not working out" scenario, wouldn't the general in Mexico, once arrested, reveal that he wasn't going rogue, but in fact was carrying out a plot hatched in The Centre? Wouldn't he bring Claudia down with him? (And wouldn't that bring Elizabeth down, too? Her protestations that she thought she was working on behalf of the government wouldn't be believed.)

Edited May 21, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[dubbel zout]

The general in Mexico might have a suicide pill and swallow it so he doesn't have to reveal anything.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Would Elizabeth normally listen to the tape of Nesterenko? Because that's what clued her in that he was negotiating in good faith and made her decide she wasn't going to kill him (in addition to her burgeoning conscience).

We've seen them listening to tapes before. If I recall correctly, they would listen, then give Gabriel or Claudia highlights of the important stuff before handing them over.

[dubbel zout]

I know she's done it before, but given the Ultra Super Secret nature of this task, it made me wonder. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Would Elizabeth normally listen to the tape of Nesterenko? Because that's what clued her in that he was negotiating in good faith and made her decide she wasn't going to kill him (in addition to her burgeoning conscience).

That's a good point. In fact, Claudia may not have expected Elizabeth to have the tape at all. The original plan was to plant it in Haskard's briefcase, which presumably would've taken longer to retrieve, since she'd have to wait for Stephanie's next nursing shift. The timing of Nesterenko's execution probably had less to do with the fact that Elizabeth had the tape and more to do with the fact that the killing had to happen before the end of the summit. It was a three-day summit, and the Nesterenko meeting is said to take place on day two, which is why Claudia mentioned that Nesterenko had to be killed "today or tomorrow." Claudia may have just reasoned that Elizabeth had bugged the meeting and that it was now or never on the assassination, and not even considered that she might've already retrieved and listened to the tape. Particularly since the episode went out of its way to establish that this is a real desperation move on the part of the hardliners -- one that they think has a good chance of going badly, but "it's almost too late to stop" Gorbachev and they have to try.

(shrug) It's still not the tightest plotting the series has ever done, but I can sort of make sense of it if I squint hard enough.

41 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

But under the "not working out" scenario, wouldn't the general in Mexico, once arrested, reveal that he wasn't going rogue, but in fact was carrying out a plot hatched in The Centre? Wouldn't he bring Claudia down with him? (And wouldn't that bring Elizabeth down, too? Her protestations that she thought she was working on behalf of the government wouldn't be believed.)

I mean, that's exactly why they compartmentalized it, isn't it? So that Elizabeth could honestly say that she got her orders from the general and Claudia wasn't involved, and for all she knew there were legitimate concerns about Nesterenko and Gorbachev. If one of the military conspirators flipped, the Centre could just claim to have been deceived, and it would be his word against all of theirs, and some of them wouldn't even be lying.

[Milburn Stone]

9 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I mean, that's exactly why they compartmentalized it, isn't it? So that Elizabeth could honestly say that she got her orders from the general and Claudia wasn't involved, and for all she knew there were legitimate concerns about Nesterenko and Gorbachev. If one of the military conspirators flipped, the Centre could just claim to have been deceived, and it would be his word against all of theirs, and some of them wouldn't even be lying.

I think this is convincing me that I wasn't cut out to be a spy. :)

[dubbel zout]

LOL. I'd be better at it than Paige, but that's not much of a bar.

[kokapetl]

On 17/05/2018 at 3:44 PM, jjj said:

About the scene where Renee arrived home, and Stan is going through the old photo album, I expected Renee to find him looking at pictures of Sandra and wondering why.  And then to say "Why are you looking at pictures of your American wife?  I mean, first wife?"  (sorry to the Renee supporters out there!)  

“Are you in love with Mrs Beeman?!”

[kokapetl]

On 17/05/2018 at 10:13 PM, Bannon said:

It was "Body Heat" an early 80s noir movie with a very sexy Kathleen Turner having some fairly explicit scenes with William Hurt. Definitely forshadowing.

Maybe Phil & Liz are going to burn down their house with the freshly defrosted corpses of the real Phil & Liz inside it. 

[kokapetl]

On 17/05/2018 at 11:08 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I am always suspect of Claudia, because she is so hard core, but, I really wonder if she would kill E or P without direct orders.  And if she did get them from that certain faction within The Centre, would she do it?  They need to be pretty careful, because, if they kill P & E, they are losing vital illegals.  (I take it that the Centre isn't aware that the FBI is on their heels.)  All the years it took them to get P & E to where they are now AND they have Paige just starting her career.  Would The Centre really screw that all up over E not killing this target they have?  Maybe, E is confident that they wouldn't. 

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do.  Where was she going? The night job is over.  Hmmm....to see Paige?

 

Claudia went home for a portion of the Kate/Gabriel years, but she found that the Soviet Union had changed too much and she also couldn’t relate to her daughter.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Pink-n-Green]

20 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Claudia took it rather well that Elizabeth defied a very important order ... almost too well ... 

This.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 5/17/2018 at 3:44 AM, jjj said:

About the scene where Renee arrived home, and Stan is going through the old photo album, I expected Renee to find him looking at pictures of Sandra and wondering why.  And then to say "Why are you looking at pictures of your American wife?  I mean, first wife?"  (sorry to the Renee supporters out there!)  

This has to be one of my favorite posts of the series. lol  Just love it.  

I guess Renee had no problem with Stan keeping those photo albums that had pictures of his ex-wife.  I mean, his best friend was in that photo too, right? I guess that makes it okay. 

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Would Elizabeth normally listen to the tape of Nesterenko? Because that's what clued her in that he was negotiating in good faith and made her decide she wasn't going to kill him (in addition to her burgeoning conscience).

In real life, no.  Oddly enough, I found out in my reading about real life spy equipment, the KGB officers in the field were not given the ability to listen to the tapes themselves.  In SHOW life though?  They always have.  CIA spies were able to listen to their tapes.

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The general in Mexico might have a suicide pill and swallow it so he doesn't have to reveal anything.

I'm sure he does. 

I detailed in the show-ending thread just how huge this Coup conspiracy was, Let's see if this direct link to that post works!  Elizabeth is now defying some VERY heavy hitters, including Vladimir Kryuchkov, Soviet KGB Chief, who was the head of the KGB, as well as others equally important.  Escaping back to the USSR will not guarantee she (or Philip or Oleg) would live very long.  Also, Gorbachev was told, but didn't believe it.  (!)

(*Vlad not related to Nikita)

Edited May 21, 2018 by Umbelina
spelling and clarifying Nikita vs Vladimir

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

This is the direction that I had hoped the writers would go.  The problem is that the writers haven't written Paige in a way that it would be believable that she would be willing to do what her mother won't willingly do.

It would be out of the question anyway.  Even if she wasn't as incompetent as she is. They can't send a random teenager who does garage karate with mom to assassinate a highly guarded Soviet official. It's a lot harder than sqeezing you bag camera while walking down a hall and keeping your knit cap and glasses on straight.

[Bannon]

57 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In real life, no.  Oddly enough, I found out in my reading about real life spy equipment, the KGB officers in the field were not given the ability to listen to the tapes themselves.  In SHOW life though?  They always have.  CIA spies were able to listen to their tapes.

I'm sure he does. 

I detailed in the show-ending thread just how huge this Coup conspiracy was, Let's see if this direct link to that post works!  Elizabeth is now defying some VERY heavy hitters, including Khrushchev, who was the head of the KGB, as well as others equally important.  Escaping back to the USSR will not guarantee she (or Philip or Oleg) would live very long.  Also, Gorbachev was told, but didn't believe it.  (!)

I don't think you meant Khruschev.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I don't think you meant Khruschev.

Yes.  I did.  He was one of the spear-heads of the Gorbachev Coup, at least in 1991, which I assume had been going on back in 1987, but may not have come to fruition until 1991.  https://www.rferl.org/a/what-happened-to-the-august-1991-coup-plotters/27933729.html

Quote

During the August Coup of 1991, Kryuchkov was the initiator of creation of The State Committee on the State of Emergency (Государственный Комитет по Чрезвычайному Положению, ГКЧП) which arrested the President of USSR Mikhail Gorbachev. After the defeat of the Committee, Kryuchkov was imprisoned for his participation. However, in 1994, the State Duma freed him in an amnesty. Kryuchkov was replaced as chairman of the KGB by Leonid Shebarshin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Kryuchkov

It wasn't Nikita, it was Vladimir.  Spelling changes, and I may not have spelled it exactly since Russian Translations vary.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Umbelina
spelling and clarifying Nikita vs Vladimir

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes.  I did.  He was one of the spear-heads of the Gorbachev Coup, at least in 1991, which I assume had been going on back in 1987, but may not have come to fruition until 1991.  https://www.rferl.org/a/what-happened-to-the-august-1991-coup-plotters/27933729.html

I think spellchecker may be changing "Kryuchkov".

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think spellchecker may be changing "Kryuchkov".

Yes, each article spells the names differently.  I should have specified the first name, sorry.  The links are correct, various translators spell both names differently.

Крючков, Хрущев

Kryuchkov, Khrushchev

Not related as far as I can tell, name translations taken from 4 different articles.  My mistake as of course many would think I meant Nikita.  BTW, spoken they would pretty similar.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, each article spells the names differently.  I should have specified the first name, sorry.  The links are correct, various translators spell both names differently.

Крючков, Хрущев

Kryuchkov, Khrushchev

Not related as far as I can tell, name translations taken from 4 different articles.  My mistake as of course many would think I meant Nikita.  BTW, spoken they would pretty similar.

Spellchecker causes more problems than it is worth, in my experience.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Spellchecker causes more problems than it is worth, in my experience.

No, it was really my fault, I sounded it out in my limited Russian, they really sound pretty close, which English letters you use are sometimes problematic when translating Russian names.  Totally on me, for not checking a Russian Translation on Google Translate.  It wasn't spell check.  I knew Nikita died in the early seventies, but honestly wasn't sure if they were related, since I did the name translations in my head rather than looking them up. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, icemiser69 said:

Other than Claudia, is there any on screen character that we have already seen available to kill the person that Elizabeth won't?  I think it is too late to introduce new characters into the series.  There are only two episodes left.

No, but they don't need one, really, for the plot. If they need Elizabeth to foil something we don't have to know who she's foiling. Or else that's not what's going to go down anyway. If the Illegals get a heads up that they're inches from all being blown they might change their priorities.

1 minute ago, icemiser69 said:

I was thinking that Renee worked for the U.S. already, and was looking for a way to take down Stan, but with two episodes left there isn't enough time for that either.  They can't let Stan get away with blackmailing the U.S.

I don't understand how Renee would be taking Stan down for the government. If the government doesn't want him blackmailing him there's a lot of things they could do other than force some woman to have sex with him and marry him for 3 years. What American woman would even agree to do that? Plus the whole thing they wanted him to do was force Oleg to work for him and Stan seems to be going after Oleg anyway now. The government doesn't need Renee to take down Stan if they want to do that.

[Umbelina]

Several suggestions have been made about Renee in her thread and in both of the endings threads.

This was such a good episode, it's always best when they let Rhys and Russel dominate the episode, and let their acting both with and without words SHINE.

[dubbel zout]

I think Renee is there to show Stan has moved on and is happy in his personal life.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Renee is there to show Stan has moved on and is happy in his personal life.

And he owes it in large part to the Jennings. He couldn't re-integrate into his own family and was left alone in the house, but wound up having a house he could always go to where he felt like he was wanted. He got to hang out with Henry when his relationship with Matthew was bad, he had a friend in Philip, he flirted with imagining them really being a family when Paige was going out with the Matthew. It was his relationship with that family that pretty much healed him and made him able to get married again, probably. In fact as much as Renee was the one who talked about wanting to work together like the Jennings Stan probably agreed to it because he's using them as a model for marriage as well. They really are his idea for what a family is. And he's going to destroy it and find out it wasn't what he thought it was.

[Clanstarling]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And he owes it in large part to the Jennings. He couldn't re-integrate into his own family and was left alone in the house, but wound up having a house he could always go to where he felt like he was wanted. He got to hang out with Henry when his relationship with Matthew was bad, he had a friend in Philip, he flirted with imagining them really being a family when Paige was going out with the Matthew. It was his relationship with that family that pretty much healed him and made him able to get married again, probably. In fact as much as Renee was the one who talked about wanting to work together like the Jennings Stan probably agreed to it because he's using them as a model for marriage as well. They really are his idea for what a family is. And he's going to destroy it and find out it wasn't what he thought it was.

Which, to me, makes his reluctance to put the pieces of the puzzle together all the more heartbreaking, and understandable. That lightbulb finally going off, that he can't ignore anymore, is an electric chair for his life as he knows it. He won't just be capturing the illegals, he will be destroying (and will be destroyed by) everyone who has helped him become whole again. With the possible exception of Renee - but the jury's still out on that one I guess.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Which, to me, makes his reluctance to put the pieces of the puzzle together all the more heartbreaking, and understandable. That lightbulb finally going off, that he can't ignore anymore, is an electric chair for his life as he knows it. He won't just be capturing the illegals, he will be destroying (and will be destroyed by) everyone who has helped him become whole again. With the possible exception of Renee - but the jury's still out on that one I guess.

I sometimes wonder if Stan's end will be him just like he was at the start. He'll be there with Renee, but when she tries to comfort him he'll be closed off again.

[jjj]

We still don't know what happened to Stan in his undercover work right before he moved next to the Jennings.  All we know is that he was traumatized and suspicious of everyone. I could see he might again end up traumatized and suspicious of everyone in about a week.  

Wow, nine days to go. 

[Darrenbrett]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Then what purpose does Renee serve?

No offense to Stan, but I just don't get their relationship.

As someone else pointed out, maybe just to justify Stan staying in such a large house?

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

We still don't know what happened to Stan in his undercover work right before he moved next to the Jennings.  All we know is that he was traumatized and suspicious of everyone. I could see he might again end up traumatized and suspicious of everyone in about a week.  

Wow, nine days to go. 

Well, he did say that it was worse than only murder.  "much worse, you can't imagine."

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, he did say that it was worse than only murder.  "much worse, you can't imagine."

I did not remember that at all.  Now I know why I expected to learn more about his previous assignment.  

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, jjj said:

I did not remember that at all.  Now I know why I expected to learn more about his previous assignment.  

@sistermagpie remembers EVERYTHING!  She's my encyclopedia of this show!  I can hear him saying it, but I can't remember who he was talking to, or the exact wording.  Maybe it was Chris Amador questioning him when he first returned, or Aderholt, or even Mathew or Henry...probably one of the first two though.  My guess is Amador, right after he realized Stan had cred.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Umbelina

[lazylou]

On May 20, 2018 at 4:48 PM, hellmouse said:

And she did say that Elizabeth needed to take care of him "today or tomorrow". So she may be thinking, okay it wasn't today, but we still have tomorrow. 

Maybe if Elizabeth still won't do it, Claudia will go after him herself the way she did back in Season 1 when Elizabeth kidnapped but didn't kill Patterson. 

Elizabeth says she has to go out to protect whatever his name is, so she expects Claudia to kill him or to order someone else to do so.  Maybe this will be how Claudia dies...

[JBravoEcho09]

20 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Would Elizabeth normally listen to the tape of Nesterenko? Because that's what clued her in that he was negotiating in good faith and made her decide she wasn't going to kill him (in addition to her burgeoning conscience).

It's what clued her in because she was listening with "newly woke" ears. She could have just heard it and decided he was a lying liar that lies as was previously assumed and never actually "listened" to him before.

[Umbelina]

50 minutes ago, JBravoEcho09 said:

It's what clued her in because she was listening with "newly woke" ears. She could have just heard it and decided he was a lying liar that lies as was previously assumed and never actually "listened" to him before.

They've always listened to the tapes on this show.  The real KGB?  Didn't.  The tapes were designed so the Officers in the field couldn't.

[Clanstarling]

Maybe Renee is there so that Stan is living in a state of contentment at the beginning of this season, making it that much more difficult and devastating when the end comes. The calm before the storm, as it were.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

remembers EVERYTHING!  She's my encyclopedia of this show!  I can hear him saying it, but I can't remember who he was talking to, or the exact wording.  Maybe it was Chris Amador questioning him when he first returned, or Aderholt, or even Mathew or Henry...probably one of the first two though.  My guess is Amador, right after he realized Stan had cred.

LOL! I have been wrong though! I think hw was talking to either Matthew or maybe when he first met Amador. I have the same memory of this one as you do I think.

20 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Maybe Renee is there so that Stan is living in a state of contentment at the beginning of this season, making it that much more difficult and devastating when the end comes. The calm before the storm, as it were.

And maybe at the same time he's got his own life so he's got more perspective snd isn't so dependent on them that he just couldn't see it.

[Umbelina]

I think Amador, might have been the first or second episode.  Some big boss comes in and tells Stan he's the one with experience and he wants him in on a spying case, that he has 23 White Supremacists standing trial, and Amador looks at him with news eyes.  As the others disperse, I think Amador questions him and that's what he says.

Or Mathew. 

Hell, now I need to go watch it.  I think it was his first day in CI.

[Dev F]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Amador, might have been the first or second episode.  Some big boss comes in and tells Stan he's the one with experience and he wants him in on a spying case, that he has 23 White Supremacists standing trial, and Amador looks at him with news eyes.  As the others disperse, I think Amador questions him and that's what he says.

Pilot episode. It's the scene where Agent Bartholomew, the original head of Counterintelligence, introduces Stan to Agent Gaad. In retrospect, it's a fascinating scene, because it was clearly added in reshoots after the series was picked up, to give Stan a meatier backstory and establish his skill as an investigator, and lay the groundwork for Gaad to take over for Bartholomew in the episodes to follow. Presumably Michael Gaston ended up not being able to continue on as Bartholomew, and it was cheaper and easier to shoot an introductory scene for Gaad than to reshoot all of Bartholomew's scene with Richard Thomas in the role.

Quote

Or Mathew.

There's actually a scene with Matthew in season 3's "Walter Taffet" in which Stan talks to Matthew about his time with the white supremacists. He mentions their leader, John Reisling, explaining that he was a murderer who's now locked up in San Quentin. Matthew asks if he forced Stan to murder anyone, and he says no.

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

Matthew asks if he forced Stan to murder anyone, and he says no.

Kind of like Paige asking Elizabeth, and Elizabeth saying no?

[sistermagpie]

Stan might not have been lying, though. 

[dubbel zout]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Stan might not have been lying, though. 

That's what I was thinking, too. Doesn't mean he didn't have to do horrible things to prove himself to the group, but killing someone didn't have to be one of those horrible things.

[Milburn Stone]

Like you, I want to believe that about Stan would never kill anybody he didn't have to. And so I do.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Dev F]

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's what I was thinking, too. Doesn't mean he didn't have to do horrible things to prove himself to the group, but killing someone didn't have to be one of those horrible things.

Yep, especially since that particular episode is all about the characters being confronted by the people they're pretending to be and discovering that they don't match up. It's more about the ways in which Stan and Reisling are different than the ways they're similar.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

That's what I was thinking, too. Doesn't mean he didn't have to do horrible things to prove himself to the group, but killing someone didn't have to be one of those horrible things.

There is the reality that it would be against the law for an undercover FBI agent to kill someone in order to prove himself to a criminal organization. Yes, it is conceivable for such an order to kill to be out of the blue, unforseeable, with the demand that the killing be immediate, with the victim present, resulting in an agent being forced to do it. The reality is that the FBI has a history of pulling agents if that demand appears to be a possibility. The real agent that was the basis of the movie "Donnie Brasco", for instance, was pulled when the FBI thought it possible that the Bonnano family was going to order him to kill someone.

[skippylou]

There was an undercover FBI agent present at the Garland, Texas terrorist attack in 2015.  When the shooters got out of their cars with their weapons he booked.  He was stopped by local law enforcement fleeing the scene but was released when he identified himself as FBI.  He didn't kill anyone but not stopping a potential mass murder??????????????