S04.E10: With Mirth In Funeral And With Dirge In Marriage

[formerlyfreedom]

Season finale!

Quote

The finale culminates in a day that will change the family and the nation forever. A burgeoning uprising has Robert suspicious of everyone, as the rest of the family unites to combat a formidable foe.

[EarlGreyTea]

Wow, WHAT was that? Bombshell after bombshell! One of the best episodes of the series. And Robert and Willow live! It's clear he genuinely cares for her and that's what I wanted from this pairing - Robert's devotion in spite of himself. I loved how Simon, in the fantasy sequence, called her his light and told Robert not to diminish her light with his darkness. Of course, all this means I will not be able to wash my hands of this show. I want to know what is next for Robert and Willow. He isn't as one-note as  had feared he would be. Now I NEED another season! They certainly pulled off the mother of all retcons with Robert, though. He was practically a mustache-twirling villain last season, and somewhere along the way they pivoted.

I bet the conversation Robert and Willow had right before the wedding will be the crux of everything. It will reveal motivations, it will reveal both of their intentions, it will show whether he truly brings her into the fold as his partner. So I really hope they show us that scene next season.

Again in this episode, Brown gave Robert so many layers, and for once the writing seemed to support those layers. There were moments of genuine regret in many of his expressions, and in his scenes with Willow, Brown certainly seemed to suggest real affection for her. I liked that there IS real regret on Robert's part, although every single character on the show thinks the worst of him. If we get a next season perhaps that will be explored. King Simon showing up was finally a chance for Brown to play off a good actor. That scene was riveting and it was rather devastating to see Robert clearly wanting his father's approval.

Kathryn pregnant and in danger - guessing that will be the heart of next season's storylines, though I can't bring myself to care.

That certainly did look like a legit royal wedding, so kudos to the location scouts, set designers, and costume designers. And Willow's tiara looked legit too. I really cannot say enough about much Max and Genevieve look the part. Both of them looked amazing in their wedding clothes. Genevieve was simply radiant. I have nothing nice to say about any of the other character's clothes, though.

One of my favorite things about the show was always the sibling dynamic. It's natural that the twins would stick together, but the death of the relationship between Robert and Eleanor feels like a huge loss to me. I love Eleanor with both her siblings, and her genuine grief over Robert in the beginning of the series was moving and an actual catalyst for her to do some growing up. To see that gone is disappointing in a whole sea of disappointing moments of this show.

See you all next season, I hope. The show certainly seems to think it deserves one, based on that rather cliffhanger-y ending. @emjohnson03, @paisley, @catrice2, @Kaiju Ballet, @phoenics, @Rachel RSL, and everyone else who posts here in this subforum, I loved all your posts and hope to see you all next season. Long live King Robert and Queen Willow.

P.S. It took me 4 seasons to realize all these episode titles are actually lines from Shakespeare plays.

Edited May 14, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[emjohnson03]

Ok so this was SOOOO interesting because so much was behind the scenes that we did NOT see and till the end you weren't sure if she was in.

I have to say I LOVED the conversation between Robert and his father. Well done show. And again, the back and forth they do with Robert. One second he's evil, the very next he's soft. Back and forth he goes. 

Willow spoke to him in the beginning. And then he spoke to her before the wedding, What was said?

I have to say I LOVED their fight. Only because you KNOW he can't turn himself off to the darkness and yet, he really didn't want her to go.

I will be happy with this ending if this the end. I have some good ideas where Kathryn ends up and what becomes of some of the others.

An enjoyable finale but also because Max Brown really brought it all.

Long live the King and Queen!!!!!

[EarlGreyTea]

6 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

Ok so this was SOOOO interesting because so much was behind the scenes that we did NOT see and till the end you weren't sure if she was in.

I have to say I LOVED the conversation between Robert and his father. Well done show. And again, the back and forth they do with Robert. One second he's evil, the very next he's soft. Back and forth he goes. 

Willow spoke to him in the beginning. And then he spoke to her before the wedding, What was said?

I have to say I LOVED their fight. Only because you KNOW he can't turn himself off to the darkness and yet, he really didn't want her to go.

I will be happy with this ending if this the end. I have some good ideas where Kathryn ends up and what becomes of some of the others.

An enjoyable finale but also because Max Brown really brought it all.

Long live the King and Queen!!!!!

Agreed that if this is the end, I can accept it. Willow and Robert married, with him seemingly softening because of her. Kathryn hopefully disappearing forever and Liam ending up with nothing. Cyrus and Violet reuniting. Eleanor and Jasper can go off into the sunset being holier-than-thou forever. And the entire gang falling flat on their faces when their big plan is foiled by Willow. I don't want to find out next season that her marrying him was a part of a bigger plan on her part. If there is more of that next season, no thanks.

I really am frustrated that we did not see the Robert/Willow scenes you mentioned. I'm betting the one right before the wedding will be shown next season, but the one at the beginning - yeah. They need to start filling in the damn gaps.

That ending sequence was one of the best of the series. Totally tense, hilariously inappropriate song playing, and the vows being said over Kathryn running away/Cyrus seeing Violet. Great stuff.

Edited May 14, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[emjohnson03]

Oh I also wanted to mention that Willow and Robert know who each other truly are!

Everyone was nervous that Willow didn't know the real Robert. She knows now and she still said yes. But yes! We need to fill in the gaps because it's so interesting that Willow seemed to want to tell Robert the plan in the beginning and then they had a huge fight so she couldn't have. And then whatever he said to her before the altar really must have changed her mind.

I'm also glad for all the build up of guns, no shots fired. 

Did anyone else find it odd that Jasper's dad was clearly seen and no one was like, um, ok? I thought he would play a bigger role than that.

And you can't convince me that Robert didn't know ANYTHING about the overtaking. And who were those people taking Kathryn away? Who planned that?

But like I said, I'm glad it just finished nicely and not with something in the air. Part of me thinks they decided to do it that way in case they didn't get another season. To me, that wasn't much of a cliffhanger because nothing was really in the balance other than Kathryn and her baby and please, that doesn't make things interesting to me.

And second the whole design of this episode. The lightning, the framing and the use of the surroundings was amazing. I loved the way it was shot. Lots of long camera work. And the music really is amazing on this show. To think that's why I tuned in again. The music of all things?! 

And I want to care about Jasper and Eleanor but goodness they are boring. And dry.

Off to do some gifs, graphics and lots of squee.

Edited May 14, 2018 by emjohnson03

[nekilarose]

That opening got me, I thought it was real. Then I realized I knew the song the choir was singing (BTW I would totally buy that version if they released it) There was so much happening that every time I caught my breath, something else came along.

Eleanor was right, they do need to be aware of their surroundings more, how many times were their "private" conversations walked in on? Quick shoutout to the Phil Collins drum interlude! I love that Agent Hill stepped up and tried to "help the cause" so to speak. "I'm too old for this shit" indeed.

When King Simon appeared I damn near cried myself. He has such a calming presence about him, regal in every way. 

 

Hands down the best part for me was when the priest turned around. Dead. I was dead and gone. I hope they get another season, and Jasper's dad just popping up at random events as random people.

[EarlGreyTea]

5 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

Oh I also wanted to mention that Willow and Robert know who each other truly are!

Everyone was nervous that Willow didn't know the real Robert. She knows now and she still said yes. But yes! We need to fill in the gaps because it's so interesting that Willow seemed to want to tell Robert the plan in the beginning and then they had a huge fight so she couldn't have. And then whatever he said to her before the altar really must have changed her mind.

I'm also glad for all the build up of guns, no shots fired. 

Did anyone else find it odd that Jasper's dad was clearly seen and no one was like, um, ok? I thought he would play a bigger role than that.

And you can't convince me that Robert didn't know ANYTHING about the overtaking. And who were those people taking Kathryn away? Who planned that?

But like I said, I'm glad it just finished nicely and not with something in the air. Part of me thinks they decided to do it that way in case they didn't get another season. To me, that wasn't much of a cliffhanger because nothing was really in the balance other than Kathryn and her baby and please, that doesn't make things interesting me.

And second the whole design of this episode. The lightning, the framing and the use of the surroundings was amazing. I loved the way it was shot. Lots of long camera work.

And I want to care about Jasper and Eleanor but goodness they are boring. And dry.

The guy who climbed into the car with Kathryn is from a few seasons ago. I think he had Helena's lover murdered (which was later retconned if I recall right). He was basically a royal enforcer and possibly had something to do with security or the government, I forget. Anyway, based on that, it sure seems like an attempt to bump Kathryn off by someone. I thought the car was going to explode or something.

Jasper and Eleanor have gotten too holier-than-thou for my taste. Eleanor's line about how it was too bad that all these decorations aren't for people in love was bullshit. Apparently the only love story she can buy into is her own, and I can't stress enough how gross it was and how incredibly sketchy her consent was. I enjoyed their pissed off faces when their plan fell on its ass.

I was absolutely sure that Robert was going to get shot. I couldn't even fully enjoy them saying their vows because I was sure it was going to happen, because everything in the wedding was going so perfectly. I guess we're going to handwave the plagiarism of Eleanor's letters? I'm totally willing to do that.

[omgsowicked]

13 hours ago, emjohnson03 said:

And second the whole design of this episode. The lightning, the framing and the use of the surroundings was amazing. I loved the way it was shot. Lots of long camera work. And the music really is amazing on this show. To think that's why I tuned in again. The music of all things?! 

Yes! I was so impressed with the look of this episode. The way they framed Willow in the alcove, before Robert came to talk to her before the ceremony? Gorgeous!! I need that as a wallpaper. And I've always loved the music but they really went in on this episode. I thought that choir version of Creep was done by the show but according to Tunefind, it's by Scala & Kolacny Brothers. So I'll be listening to that (and a few other songs from this episode) on repeat for a few hours! I loved the Phil Collins drum moment, too! Even while planning a coup, they had to do it! :P

ETA: There's a playlist for all of S4's music on Spotify, if you want to check it out.

I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, what a great episode. This one's staying on my DVR. Every time you thought you had an idea of what was going on, something/someone changed. But when Robert and Willow talked right before the ceremony, I knew she'd say yes. They didn't show us the conversation, and we had gotten the nightmare version of the wedding, so I figured we'd get the good version. I'm really happy that we got a Robert/Willow ending and that it felt true, finally. The way Robert had been speaking to her, treating her like a subordinate... yes, it was because of his upbringing and his issues with his father, but I was like, "oh hell no!" But his "conversation" with Simon was excellent (exactly what he needed to hear) and it seems to have helped him make amends with Willow. She was so upset and concerned about Robert that she was willing to ruin him in front of the world, so what he said (what did he say?!) must have been incredible. It had to have been about his issues... maybe he finally revealed them (she had seen him talking to himself the night before) and agreed that he had lost his way. Maybe he even agreed to reinstate Parliament. But a tiny part of me worries that all the comments about paying attention to their surroundings means Robert knew what they were up to and their conversation was more like, "if you say anything other than 'I do,' I'll lie through my teeth and have you hanged." But I don't think that's what actually happened, that's just me being neurotic about them ruining the best part of the show if they get another season, lol.

It seemed like they had backed Robert into a corner with no way out, and now I'm hopeful about his future on the show, if we get another season. It was fun to have Robert be the villain but now I want to see them truly repair their relationships. Liam and (especially) Eleanor seemed very troubled by what they were doing; they didn't want their brother to be a monster that needed to be taken down. So I hope, once the anger at Willow's "betrayal" dies down, that they finally have a sit-down where they talk everything out. I wouldn't be the least bit upset about a bottle episode where they do nothing but have a group therapy session, lol! I want them to hash everything out and get back to the campy stuff.

Violet's back! I wasn't too surprised, since Cyrus had brought her up an episode or two ago, but I still thought it was great. The way she was sneaking around, I guess she's still fearful for her life. I'm interested in seeing Cyrus and Violet together now that he's made so many improvements.

Why is Kathryn pregnant? Like, I knew it would happen but still, ugh! Who wanted this? The closed captioning revealed the line before Liam said "our baby" so I ended up groaning through it, lol. I'm glad the coup didn't happen, so no King Liam and Queen Kathryn (barf!) Hopefully Robert and Willow have a few kids to push Liam down the line. And now Kathryn's been abducted by that guy who's supposed to be in jail. I wonder who he's working for. I guess that's what Liam's drama will be, if there's another season. More avenging! Yay.

I guess Eleanor and Jasper are engaged? I was worried they would end up getting married instead of Robert and Willow, especially since The Royals Instagram account kept posting images and captions alluding to it. I'm never going to get on board with them, show.

I hope we get another season, as there were a few loose threads (some that were interesting, some that were... not) and a major development (Willow becoming Queen), and I really want to see where they go with the show now. But this was a very satisfying episode to potentially end the show with. I've really enjoyed this show and coming here to talk with you all about it, so I hope we get to keep doing it!

Edited May 14, 2018 by omgsowicked
Added link to Spotify playlist

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Wow, WHAT was that? Bombshell after bombshell! One of the best episodes of the series. And Robert and Willow live! It's clear he genuinely cares for her and that's what I wanted from this pairing - Robert's devotion in spite of himself. I loved how Simon, in the fantasy sequence, called her his light and told Robert not to diminish her light with his darkness. Of course, all this means I will not be able to wash my hands of this show. I want to know what is next for Robert and Willow. He isn't as one-note as  had feared he would be. Now I NEED another season! They certainly pulled off the mother of all retcons with Robert, though. He was practically a mustache-twirling villain last season, and somewhere along the way they pivoted.

So I haven't watched at all - I came here to see what you posted and THANK GOD you put this paragraph first.  I'm going to go ahead and watch now.  Be back in a while with my thoughts.

[catrice2]

13 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So I haven't watched at all - I came here to see what you posted and THANK GOD you put this paragraph first.  I'm going to go ahead and watch now.  Be back in a while with my thoughts.

You know I am waiting on you!   I wait for you and Earl Gray,then decide if I am going to watch. 

I think after last week's recap (or the week before?) I took it off my rotation. Now I am trying to find a rerun or figure out from what everyone is posting what happened.  From what I can piece together, either Robert knew they were plotting, or someone told him. Wonder if it was Sebastian or the Cassandra?? (the girl he dropped for Willow) because she hinted that she knew something.   I personally think that while filming the writers/showrunners realized that to have Robert get caught  publicly would put him in a place where he could not be redeemed. It looks stupid to have the country changing hands so many times.  

What I can't get over is they can forgive Cyrus, who I think based on these boards really did kill someone, but not Robert?  By all accounts they loved him before he was on the island, so everything since then negates that?  

My problem with this show is that Max Brown is the only person that can act.  I had hoped that others would raise their game, but I find that any scene that he is not in is painful for me. The other actors on this show are so bad that it is comical.   The only stories that are good are the ones he is a part of. I think as they filmed this season they realized that, and fan reaction since it has aired has only confirmed what they knew. I will bet as it was shot plenty of scenes were rewritten. I could tell just by the episodes that I watched.  

If they are smart they will bring in an antagonist that is outside the family.  He and Liam and co do not have to become best friends, but I am tired of all the internal family angst.  I wanted to see Liam and Robert against a strong Cyrus .  Now that they have ruined Cyrus they need to bring someone else in. 

What is the big crime or crimes that they are trying to expose? I thought they already retooled the "he killed the King," narrative. I don't care about the Jasper/Eleanor manipulation, breaking up Helena's relationship, or anything to do with Cyrus...so what BIG thing did he do? 

[phoenics]

So I watched.

Again - Max Brown is the ONLY reason to watch this show.  Maybe Elizabeth Hurley. But the rest?  Pfft. Okay and GG.  When Robert told Willow he loved her I believed it.  Their fight was awesome - and poor Robert really does believe he's doing the right thing for the country - but he's also arrogant enough to think only he has the answers.  And he's doing THE MOST because he just wants to prove his father wrong.

I remember at the end of last season I WAS LIVID with King Simon.  I blamed HIM for how Robert turned out and I thought him telling his son that was AWFUL parenting and AWFUL leadership.  YOU LEFT THAT BOY out in the rain to play chess and never corrected him so he understood that being a good leader was about more than chess moves?  More than strategy?  THAT'S on you Simon!

So when Robert told Simon that he felt abandoned after that, I got emotional because I felt like the writers realized how bad that was (maybe they read this board or my tweets) and fixed it.

So - everything with Robert and Willow?  Perfection.  Those two saved this show.

Now on to this damn family.

Everyone walking around like their shit don't stink  and acting like Robert is just SOOOOO bad - what the hell show?  Cyrus KILLED a man and he gets to preen?  He's done so much horrible stuff - but HE is better than Robert?  No.  And Eleanor acting like this is the end with her and Robert and like him stealing a damn letter and causing a blackout is the worst?  And yeah - Robert has no confidence in his ability to sway with words with Willow because he probably didn't get that from his parents who did NOT love each other AND worse, his dad basically bashed him before he (Robert) went down in a crash.  When Robbie came back, he was dead.  And when Robert used his words to try to woo (Kate), it fell flat on its face because she was screwing his brother.

Eleanor  judging ANYONE for a jacked up love relationship is just SO wrong.  And Jasper walking around like his shit doesn't stink.  Eff all of them.  Eleanor especially made me scream at the tv when she decided Robert is no longer her brother.  WTF.

And now... Liam.  This is the FIRST episode since Robert came back where I finally remembered Liam was his brother.  The writers actually went overkill on it to have Liam look especially caring right this minute - when he's been an ASS to Robert for 18 straight episodes.  Just die, Liam.

Robert was abandoned by King Simon when he told him that mess about him not being a good King... and now he's pretty much been abandoned by everyone else in his family.  No one thought to get him some therapy when he came back from the island.  No one called Liam on the carpet for Kathryn or considered how angry and hurt it must have made Robert.  NO ONE asked Robert how he was after he came back and his dad was dead.  They just threw the monarchy at him and demanded he lead - all except Liam who was just jealous.

Oh and that's another thing.  I'm supposed to buy that Liam is doing this for altruistic reasons?  I don't!  The ONLY one I buy that from is Helena - she's the ONLY one through all of this who I feel still loves Robert besides Willow.  Eleanor seems to hate him now because he stole a damn letter (which wouldn't have mattered had she and Jasper not been so dysfunctional).  Liam has hated him since he got back because of jealousy.  Jasper - well I kinda like their hate relationship because Jasper should be in jail for sexual harassment.  And Cyrus is a sick, twisted, dirty murderer - I don't care what he thinks.

I'm glad Willow aligned with Robert - he needs SOMEONE to believe in him.  Everyone else just instantly turned their backs on him.

And Liam can keep that fake speech about Robert to himself - he should have said that a long time ago when I could buy that he actually meant it and loved Robert.

If there is a next season - I hope Robert gets a redemption storyline.  I don't know if King Simon's line of him having both the crown and Willow means anything - I hope it does.  But I would rather see him aligned against a larger enemy - not just pulling stunts on his own, lol.  And I want to see SkankyLady back to be a rival to Willow.  And I'd like to see Robert and Eleanor patched up - although she's gonna need to drop the sanctimony. She's living in a huge glass house.  I couldn't care less what Liam does.

I am curious about dude from Season 1 who they thought killed Simon - what's he doing?  I hope he's part of a larger scheme.  I don't give a flying fig about Kathryn or her baby and I hope she doesn't take up much screentime.  I don't mind having Liam going all "avengers" to get her back - but this would have been far more interesting had it been Willow who was taken, but whatevs.

All I know is that I hope the show knows that it's Max Brown and his storylines that should drive this show - and to play him like JR Ewing but with a heart for Willow and his family.  Liam isn't strong enough to play his Bobby Ewing - so let Willow be Sue Ellen and Bobby in her ability to curb his crazy.  Liam can be the B-C storyline along with Jasper and Eleanor.

But the focus?  It better be on Max Brown's Robert.  Period.  He's the only thing saving this show.

Edited May 14, 2018 by phoenics

[phoenics]

54 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

You know I am waiting on you!   I wait for you and Earl Gray,then decide if I am going to watch. 

I think after last week's recap (or the week before?) I took it off my rotation. Now I am trying to find a rerun or figure out from what everyone is posting what happened.  From what I can piece together, either Robert knew they were plotting, or someone told him. Wonder if it was Sebastian or the Cassandra?? (the girl he dropped for Willow) because she hinted that she knew something.   I personally think that while filming the writers/showrunners realized that to have Robert get caught  publicly would put him in a place where he could not be redeemed. It looks stupid to have the country changing hands so many times.  

What I can't get over is they can forgive Cyrus, who I think based on these boards really did kill someone, but not Robert?  By all accounts they loved him before he was on the island, so everything since then negates that?  

My problem with this show is that Max Brown is the only person that can act.  I had hoped that others would raise their game, but I find that any scene that he is not in is painful for me. The other actors on this show are so bad that it is comical.   The only stories that are good are the ones he is a part of. I think as they filmed this season they realized that, and fan reaction since it has aired has only confirmed what they knew. I will bet as it was shot plenty of scenes were rewritten. I could tell just by the episodes that I watched.  

If they are smart they will bring in an antagonist that is outside the family.  He and Liam and co do not have to become best friends, but I am tired of all the internal family angst.  I wanted to see Liam and Robert against a strong Cyrus .  Now that they have ruined Cyrus they need to bring someone else in. 

What is the big crime or crimes that they are trying to expose? I thought they already retooled the "he killed the King," narrative. I don't care about the Jasper/Eleanor manipulation, breaking up Helena's relationship, or anything to do with Cyrus...so what BIG thing did he do? 

So basically he caused a blackout, and dissolved Parliament and wants to make that permanent so he can reign until he dies.

Which, on its face, is tyrannical - but I partially agreed with his reasoning - but it's still wrong.  This isn't the kind of thing that you try to kill someone over - you try to appeal to his better half and get him to pivot.  If you can't THEN you unseat him.

But honestly - I think the family is just mad he got the better of them.  He manipulated them better than they've manipulated others and they're just salty.

Eleanor is mad that he took her letter (oh boo hoo - if Jaspenor wasn't repeating the same storylines ad nauseum and not speaking to each other that wouldn't have been an issue!)

Liam is mad he had Kathryn and the throne.  It's only been recent when he found out what Robert did (the blackout and power grab) that now he can "justify" his vendetta against his brother.

Helena is just mad he's more manipulative and powerful than she ever was.

Cyrus - who cares what he thinks.

The problem I still have with this show is that they are still treating Robert as though he actually DID murder Simon, even though that's not true.  They talk about him like he's practically a sociopathic murderer.  To have Cyrus talk trash about him is especially jarring given he IS a murderer.

I was SO glad when they all were left with egg on their faces at the end.  Willow looked so happy about what she was doing - saying yes.  Robert must have told her something.  Maybe something much bigger is up and that's why he did what he did (grab power)?  I dunno - I just know they need to redeem Robert.  He's all that matters for me.

[catrice2]

12 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So I watched.

Again - Max Brown is the ONLY reason to watch this show.  Maybe Elizabeth Hurley. But the rest?  Pfft. Okay and GG.  When Robert told Willow he loved her I believed it.  Their fight was awesome - and poor Robert really does believe he's doing the right thing for the country - but he's also arrogant enough to think only he has the answers.  And he's doing THE MOST because he just wants to prove his father wrong.

I remember at the end of last season I WAS LIVID with King Simon.  I blamed HIM for how Robert turned out and I thought him telling his son that was AWFUL parenting and AWFUL leadership.  YOU LEFT THAT BOY out in the rain to play chess and never corrected him so he understood that being a good leader was about more than chess moves?  More than strategy?  THAT'S on you Simon!

So when Robert told Simon that he felt abandoned after that, I got emotional because I felt like the writers realized how bad that was (maybe they read this board or my tweets) and fixed it.

So - everything with Robert and Willow?  Perfection.  Those two saved this show.

Now on to this damn family.

Everyone walking around like their shit don't stink  and acting like Robert is just SOOOOO bad - what the hell show?  Cyrus KILLED a man and he gets to preen?  He's done so much horrible stuff - but HE is better than Robert?  No.  And Eleanor acting like this is the end with her and Robert and like him stealing a damn letter and causing a blackout is the worst?  And yeah - Robert has no confidence in his ability to sway with words with Willow because he probably didn't get that from his parents who did NOT love each other AND worse, his dad basically bashed him before he (Robert) went down in a crash.  When Robbie came back, he was dead.  And when Robert used his words to try to woo (Kate), it fell flat on its face because she was screwing his brother.

Eleanor  judging ANYONE for a jacked up love relationship is just SO wrong.  And Jasper walking around like his shit doesn't stink.  Eff all of them.  Eleanor especially made me scream at the tv when she decided Robert is no longer her brother.  WTF.

And now... Liam.  This is the FIRST episode since Robert came back where I finally remembered Liam was his brother.  The writers actually went overkill on it to have Liam look especially caring right this minute - when he's been an ASS to Robert for 18 straight episodes.  Just die, Liam.

Robert was abandoned by King Simon when he told him that mess about him not being a good King... and now he's pretty much been abandoned by everyone else in his family.  No one thought to get him some therapy when he came back from the island.  No one called Liam on the carpet for Kathryn or considered how angry and hurt it must have made Robert.  NO ONE asked Robert how he was after he came back and his dad was dead.  They just threw the monarchy at him and demanded he lead - all except Liam who was just jealous.

Oh and that's another thing.  I'm supposed to buy that Liam is doing this for altruistic reasons?  I don't!  The ONLY one I buy that from is Helena - she's the ONLY one through all of this who I feel still loves Robert besides Willow.  Eleanor seems to hate him now because he stole a damn letter (which wouldn't have mattered had she and Jasper not been so dysfunctional).  Liam has hated him since he got back because of jealousy.  Jasper - well I kinda like their hate relationship because Jasper should be in jail for sexual harassment.  And Cyrus is a sick, twisted, dirty murderer - I don't care what he thinks.

I'm glad Willow aligned with Robert - he needs SOMEONE to believe in him.  Everyone else just instantly turned their backs on him.

And Liam can keep that fake speech about Robert to himself - he should have said that a long time ago when I could buy that he actually meant it and loved Robert.

If there is a next season - I hope Robert gets a redemption storyline.  I don't know if King Simon's line of him having both the crown and Willow means anything - I hope it does.  But I would rather see him aligned against a larger enemy - not just pulling stunts on his own, lol.  And I want to see SkankyLady back to be a rival to Willow.  And I'd like to see Robert and Eleanor patched up - although she's gonna need to drop the sanctimony. She's living in a huge glass house.  I couldn't care less what Liam does.

I am curious about dude from Season 1 who they thought killed Simon - what's he doing?  I hope he's part of a larger scheme.  I don't give a flying fig about Kathryn or her baby and I hope she doesn't take up much screentime.  I don't mind having Liam going all "avengers" to get her back - but this would have been far more interesting had it been Willow who was taken, but whatevs.

All I know is that I hope the show knows that it's Max Brown and his storylines that should drive this show - and to play him like JR Ewing but with a heart for Willow and his family.  Liam isn't strong enough to play his Bobby Ewing - so let Willow be Sue Ellen and Bobby in her ability to curb his crazy.  Liam can be the B-C storyline along with Jasper and Eleanor.

But the focus?  It better be on Max Brown's Robert.  Period.  He's the only thing saving this show.

I am getting mad just reading your recap. I didn't see every season and every time someone posts about the pasts it gives me more insight, and more reason to NOT be on the Liam or Eleanor ship.  Eleanor, who can'd decide who she is in love with and got played not only by the blonde that was player her with Jasper, but by Jasper himself.....who would sleep with someone who slept with her mother....and who was on drugs.....yes, please let her judge someone else's morals.  She can forgive a con man because of good sex, but not her own brother????!!! 

Cyrus....oh please.  Helena....wasn't she cheating on her husband and didn't even know who the father of her children was?  And, doesn't she know her mother killed someone? 

I hope I can find a rerun...and if there is a 5th season they find some way to bring back Sebastian!!!   My only eye candy!!! 

Jasper is, and always has been a wasted character to me.  I know I am supposed to think he is attractive, but uh no.  He is such a bad actor that it is all I can think about when he is on the screen. 

So, was Willow in on it and changed her mind? Or was she not in on it, brought in on it and then decided against the plan? 

[phoenics]

Willow realized she couldn't marry Robert because he was just so far gone with his "I rule because people are stupid" reasoning (which sounded better out of his mouth, lol).  She went to Helena and realized she couldn't marry him and they brought her in on the plan.  She was supposed to out him in the church in front of everyone about the blackout and power grab so they could unseat him and pass the crown to Liam (gag).  But Robert had some kind of fugue state dream of playing chess with Simon, who told him he didn't have to give into his dark side that he could let Willow's light shine and he could be both king and be a good man for her and with her.  Robert also said that he felt abandoned by Simon's last words to him and Simon said he hadn't abandoned him and how he could still be great, etc...

Robert then went to Willow and said they needed to talk.

Then the service happened and when the moment came for Willow to out Robert, she said "yes" instead and they got married.

I will probably watch again to enjoy that better.

[catrice2]

That doesn't make sense...how were they going to out him if she was not brought into the plan, and why not go ahead with that plan when they saw she was not playing along?   I can't wait to see everyone's reactions to her not following along with the plan....unless it is revealed the plan was changed . 

I don't know, I think  I will have to record it and fast forward through anything but the Robert/Willow scenes. 

[EarlGreyTea]

Crossed my mind that Willow was playing them all the second that tiresome Dominique connection was mentioned. I thought there was a good chance she was playing them all when I heard that, or at least Helena. But the show usually tips its hand early. Willow being in it alone - I don't think so. The show is not good with subtlety. There would have been a hint of it already. Of course, I have been wrong about a LOT that's happened, so who knows.

I am re-watching and getting even more annoyed with Eleanor and Jasper. Stealing her letter was wrong, and so was stealing her words, but Eleanor's acting like he murdered Jasper. Burning his photos, really? For chrissakes, she's buddying up with Cyrus! It's utterly ridiculous how Robert is never, ever cut slack from this family. I'm starting to think they all wish he was still dead. It's no wonder he's clinging to Willow as his light. The only ones I buy as loving Robert are Simon and Helena. Helena's motives I can at least buy as being rooted in love.

I would like to reiterate how much I loved the pissed off looks on everyone's faces as Willow outfoxed all of them. Whatever Robert said, I'd love to know what it was.

p.s. I just remembered Jasper and Eleanor had that security guard, what's his name, write a bunch of their letters for them! The audacity of those assholes!

Edited May 15, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[emjohnson03]

Love all these posts to pieces!!! 

You know the only reason Robert stole the words from the letters was purely plot driven because honestly, Robert never needed the words. When he kissed her the first time and then he proposed, those were HIS. That was just another dumb wedge between him and Willow that didn't make any sense and I'm sure it was explained away by Robert, as it should be because while that's not cool, it could be seen as Robert's desperation move to hold onto Willow. 

Because we never saw alot of Willow and Robert behind closed doors, so much is left to interpretation which is why they left the finale so nerve wracking. If we SAW all of that, we wouldn't be surprised by anything that they did. I would hope there's some good fanfics out there filling in those blanks.

And YES to Max Brown saving the show. And Willow as an extension because the relationship was the only real interesting this season and while I wished they did more with them, they couldn't because of the ambiguity they had to keep having episode after episode on where they stood, especially the last few.

I will say I keep wondering if that fight about the blackout was real. I think it was and so WELL done. I'm glad we saw that much because otherwise you would wonder if Willow did know the real Robert and if Robert really did love her. (The fans of them know he does, but to everyone else, it seemed so obvious because he couldn't let her walk away like that and he couldn't speak to her that way)

I will find it interesting how quickly she did say, 'I overreacted to you. I'm sorry.' I know why she did but I always get thrown off when a fight just ends suddenly like that and everything is "ok". It wasn't but I wonder if Robert carried that with him as he spoke to her in the church.

Cassandra was another plot point to wedge them. Her whole speech to Robert in the birthday party episode was just to put him off kilter and throw more fire to the Willow intensions. She didn't love Liam but he's guarded and insecure about happiness, so of course he's going to feed into her crap. And he might have, but we don't really know, because they didn't flesh out his fear enough in that respect and Willow did speak her love for him. 

Overall the show could have done more with them but with other stories and people, they can only have so much. But I will say the parts we did get, were wonderful. I don't expect another season but if there's another one, it will be interesting how it all plays out between the King, Queen and everyone else. I really just want to see Robert and Willow just take them all down. 

[EarlGreyTea]

14 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

Love all these posts to pieces!!! 

You know the only reason Robert stole the words from the letters was purely plot driven because honestly, Robert never needed the words. When he kissed her the first time and then he proposed, those were HIS. That was just another dumb wedge between him and Willow that didn't make any sense and I'm sure it was explained away by Robert, as it should be because while that's not cool, it could be seen as Robert's desperation move to hold onto Willow. 

Because we never saw alot of Willow and Robert behind closed doors, so much is left to interpretation which is why they left the finale so nerve wracking. If we SAW all of that, we wouldn't be surprised by anything that they did. I would hope there's some good fanfics out there filling in those blanks.

And YES to Max Brown saving the show. And Willow as an extension because the relationship was the only real interesting this season and while I wished they did more with them, they couldn't because of the ambiguity they had to keep having episode after episode on where they stood, especially the last few.

Brown does great work with his eyes in this episode. In the seconds before Willow's vow, you could see him searching Willow's face and it was crazy - you could see both doubt and certainty in his expression. Then when Willow said "I do," you could see both triumph and a hint of smugness in his eyes. Triumph because he won her over, with Simon's warning in mind, and a bit of smugness that he got the girl in the end over the machinations of his crappy family (no way do I buy that he had no inkling of what was afoot). It's great stuff. Genevieve had less to work with, since her character doesn't have as many layers. You could see uncertainty in her expression throughout the whole episode, right up until she said her vow - then it was like the sun came out and she fulfilled that dream of hers she mentioned at the beginning of the season - her happy ending.

The rest of the royal family needs to work on their poker faces, though. A blind man could see their obvious discomfort/anger/apprehension at what is supposedly the wedding of their beloved king. Morons.

What I'd give to know what the writers originally had planned for this season, because someone, somewhere along the way, realized they should give Brown something to work with and not to work him into a corner. Good riddance to Mark Schwahn, of course.

Finally, I would like to link to Moseley's explanation of the finale. Great stuff in here, the most interesting being that Kathryn's pregnancy was in the works since last season. I recall someone here seeing the chalkboard in the background of her apartment hinting at it, so kudos to that poster. Unfortunately, he also adds:

Quote

“There was a little note on the board in her apartment that left the audience to think maybe she could be pregnant. And then we find out that she is, but the question is: Whose baby is it? If it’s Liam’s child, that creates problems for Robert, and if it’s Robert’s child, that creates huge friction between the brothers — and she’d be carrying the king’s child, which would be a huge deal. What would that mean for her? And what would that mean for Willow and Robert? There are a lot of questions.”

He also adds, to my delight:

Quote

“It definitely leaves a huge dot dot dot at the end of the season,” Moseley says of Willow’s choice to go rogue and actually marry Robert. “Her motivations are ambiguous, of course, but I think she might have joined the dark side. I really do think she and Robert would be a formidable team. You could also maybe presume that Robert knew about [his family’s plan] and pulled Willow into it way before. I think it was an ending that no one would expect — they probably assumed someone would get shot, or maybe someone would get caught in the crossfire and die, so for it to end with her just saying ‘I do’ was very epic. I’m so excited to see the audience’s reaction.”

Love. It. This was exactly what I'd hoped for. Go to the dark side, Willow - Robert's got all the power there.

Edited May 15, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[Captain Asshat]

One of my favorite shoutouts of the episode was after the fight between Helena and Willow's mother. Helena acknowledges, "I've been binge watching Dynasty." Dynasty had the best catfights between Linda Evans and Joan Collins. Speaking of whom, where was the Grand Duchy during the wedding? Surely she would have attended her grandson's wedding.

[Kaiju Ballet]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:05 PM, EarlGreyTea said:

It's natural that the twins would stick together, but the death of the relationship between Robert and Eleanor feels like a huge loss to me. I love Eleanor with both her siblings, and her genuine grief over Robert in the beginning of the series was moving and an actual catalyst for her to do some growing up. To see that gone is disappointing in a whole sea of disappointing moments of this show.

That was really hard for me to believe--could the Twins really be ok with the possibility of Robert's death due to their machinations? Helena I can see rationalizing that for the good of the monarchy. The suspense was really well done--I kind of expected either of the Twins to have a last minute change of heart and fling themselves in front of Robert. Or even worse, that Willow would be shot instead.

I was also hoping that Jasper's willingness to actually kill Robert to come between Eleanor and him. That scene with the "proposal" was so wasted on him. Lol at @EarlGreyTea's comment about them needing poker faces--I agree, except for Jasper. That's the only expression Jasper has.

On 5/13/2018 at 11:21 PM, emjohnson03 said:

And second the whole design of this episode. The lightning, the framing and the use of the surroundings was amazing. I loved the way it was shot. Lots of long camera work. And the music really is amazing on this show. To think that's why I tuned in again. The music of all things?! 

YES x10. I've been noticing the camerawork this season, and the way they've been structuring the shows so you have opening scenes that are artistically done. Was Royals always like this, or has it been happening since Mark Schwahn's.....departure? One notable instance was the episode that had Helena flinging her wine glass across the banquet table. In this episode there were those loving continuous shots through the church (what was that location? gorgeous!) past the choir, attendees, architecture and then the end of the bridal procession at the altar. The clothing was also on point. And yes, the music.

Aside from Creep, the more "traditional" song was close captioned with a line in the chorus as "Among these dark Satanic Mills". I looked it up, and it's a William Blake poem where "Satanic Mills" could be referring to the factories of the Industrial Revolution, or priesthood in general. Which makes it all the more funnier when that priest blessing the rings turned around!

(So I guess the Duchess wasn't invited to the Royal Wedding.....)

On 5/13/2018 at 11:32 PM, EarlGreyTea said:

I was absolutely sure that Robert was going to get shot. I couldn't even fully enjoy them saying their vows because I was sure it was going to happen, because everything in the wedding was going so perfectly.

Me too! I have to rewatch, I missed out a lot with that same anticipation.

17 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

p.s. I just remembered Jasper and Eleanor had that security guard, what's his name, write a bunch of their letters for them! The audacity of those assholes!

I forgot about that! And YES. Who's to say that Hill didn't plagiarize himself for Robert? I did like Helena understanding immediately why Hill didn't just say "I'm in" and respecting him for it. Hill remains one of my favorite characters.

[paisley]

My random thoughts:

That was fun. Everything was so over the top and that's really saying something for this show.

The Phil Collins drum break scene let me know I was in for a real treat and I was not disappointed.

I loved Mr. Hill being utilized but the security has been so lax I wonder what he's been doing. Maybe he's just developed a laissez-faire attitude about everything. He knows all, sees all, and doesn't give a damn.

I understand Eleanor being disillusioned by Robert, not so much about  the letters but his actions as a monarch. And of course being Eleanor, rebellious Royal Princess of Drama, one must sit outside the palace, smoke a joint and have a photo bonfire.

Hearing Robert's convo with Willow about "one voice", "not everyone should have a voice" was disturbing. He's despotic and tyrannical and all the things a ruler should not be but Max Brown makes me want to excuse his "confusion" and hope for a rapid redemption.

Willow has me in the same  position I was  mid season with Robert, questioning her actions and motives, wondering if she's playing a far deeper game than everyone else and hoping for the best.

The fashion this episode  was not what I expected. Eleanor had on a white dress that I called the 'sad bosom dress' cause it just didn't fit her  correctly. Her dress for the wedding was unexpectedly unremarkable with breast flaps that looked like boxes. Willow's bridal gown and veil weren't giving me a royal wedding look either. Willow is beautiful and doesn't need a lot of enhancement but her dress and veil looked real basic. Low key for the Queen of England. She was dressed better at Helena's birthday party.

I started watching this show because I was intrigued by the off kilter Jasper and Eleanor relationship. I wanted to see how they would make their way from using each other to a loving relationship and I have enjoyed the journey. At no time have I had an interest in the love life of Liam.  So although I'm curious about the appearance of Lucius (former imprisoned Lord Chamberlain) I really don't give a damn about Kathryn, baby royal (or whoever baby Daddy is), or Liam's current lost monarchy. 

I'm really hoping for a Season 5 and a Happily Ever After for everyone.

P.S. I've enjoyed participating in this forum. Thanks for the shoutout EarlGreyTea.  I hope all we get the opportunity to continue discussions. 

P.S.S. Anybody got recommendations for shows to watch during the hiatus. I lean toward sci-fi/fantasy .and historical drama. GoT, SH, Preacher, The Alienist, Night Manager are things I liked. Thanks.

Edited May 18, 2018 by paisley
punctuation gone awry

[methodwriter85]

On 5/14/2018 at 7:00 PM, catrice2 said:

My problem with this show is that Max Brown is the only person that can act.  I had hoped that others would raise their game, but I find that any scene that he is not in is painful for me. The other actors on this show are so bad that it is comical.   The only stories that are good are the ones he is a part of. I think as they filmed this season they realized that, and fan reaction since it has aired has only confirmed what they knew. I will bet as it was shot plenty of scenes were rewritten. I could tell just by the episodes that I watched.  

I was an original watcher that basically made it to about late season 3, and then I gave up because I really, really wasn't interested in Robert being the root of all evil. I'm glad that it didn't quite go that way this year. I might have to catch up.

The first two seasons of the show were pretty fun, but it was interesting to see how the show changed with the arrival of Robert. I felt like the entire vibe of the show had been about Liam becoming someone that could and should be King, especially those first two years. Then everything kind of went up in the air after that.

Mark Schwann was doing a lot of social media online hangouts with William Moseley and Alexandra Park during season 3, and it was pretty easy to see what the agenda was- Liam should be King, Robert is the root of all Evil.

I'm glad they actually utilized Max Brown.

[Fresag]

I don't know why they want to sell Kathryn in this way , she is just a hot girl for the show, any personality. For a love interest, the show must have deepen in her interests, opinions, skills, she is just there to kiss Liam and Robert. if Liam became King, she would be the queen? That girl without personality, show us the greatness that she has because there must be something for making two brothers to fight  for her or inspiring  a man as  robert  to be rescued.