S04.E06: The Laws Of Gods And Men 2014.05.11

[Mya Stone]

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Episode synopsis: .Stannis and Davos set sail with a new strategy. Dany meets with supplicants. Tyrion faces down his father in the throne room.

[90PercentGravity]

Oh hell, that was intense. I was worried Shae would come back bitter and scorned.

 

I'm guessing Tyrion will have to face Jaime and either Jaime will kill him or Bronn will fight for Tyrion and kill Jaime. Nothing good can come of this. Yipes.

 

So, Dany is already bored with being Queen.

 

Braavos! I literally squeed when I saw it on the map. I just hate that its introduction was spoiled by Blandis blanding about.

[capt planet]

Gods, Theon.  How pathetic.  I love how it took Yara ages to reach him, but the threat of dogs made her go, "you know, let's rethink this".  Not looking forward to whatever storyline they are concocting for the Ironborn, not only because it already seems cliche, but also because I fear for Yara.  Badass and a woman?  Oh girl, you're not gonna make it.

 

Shae, also pathetic.  I really hate how after all was said and done, her entire purpose within the story was to betray Tyrion.  Weak writing on the author's part, I think.  Varys was particularly disappointing this episode--taking the stand against Tyrion is one thing, but he got a bit Littlefinger-ish for a moment during his conversation with Oberyn.  So, you think you'll be a king, huh?  Get in line, pal.  Though, with that said, he's probably got a better chance than Stannis.  Speaking of which, was that Myrcroft from Sherlock playing the lead Braavos banker?  And did that banker really not hear about the girl in the east with the army of unsullied and three dragons?

 

Tyrion speculation:  I agree that Jaime will die somehow.  That whole "I'll take over Casterly Rock" felt like the moment in those cop movies where the captain says he's only got a month left before he retires.  Bad omen.

Edited May 12, 2014 by capt planet

[Snowblack]

I'm so disappointed in Varys right now. :no:  I was surprised to see Shae, but not shocked at her petty choice to betray Tyrion.  I don't know why I naively thought Varys would at least keep his mouth shut.  I didn't expect him to speak on Tyrion's behalf, but this...  For shame.

 

As for Tyrion's behavior, all I could think of was WWE wrestling, when a character goes from a hero to a heel.  Lol. Nice twist.  And lots of fun speculation about who Tyrion's champion will be, if he names one at all.  I guess Bronn would be the right choice, especially after the conversation Bronn and Jaime had about the last trial by combat.  Oh god, what if Jaime fights on behalf of the crown?  Will he let himself be killed to see his brother go free, and to spite his father and Cersei?  I'm sick at the possibility.

 

I never expected to see Bravos!  I freaked out when I saw it on the map.  Very cool.  And Stannis...he just expects everything to be handed to him.  His annoyance at their impertinence at keeping him waiting was so comical.  I liked the parallel between this "Loan Committee" scene and the scene in Qarth between Danaerys and the Spice King.  I don't like that they're taking a gamble on Stannis, honestly.  Dany would be a much better bet for them.  Not that she's necessarily interested in making deals with bankers...but still.  I don't like the focus by Stannis on the Iron Throne.  Why even bother with Melisandre's vision last season, if he's just going to disregard it?  He needs to get his mopey butt up north.

 

Yara was a pleasant surprise.  I liked her use of Ramsay's words to pump up her troops.  I was so afraid that Theon was going to attack her and cause her death.  I don't buy her running away at the threat of the dogs.  Why not just attack Ramsay before he can open the door instead of standing there like a fool?  I was annoyed by her lack of aggressiveness.  And why not just knock Theon out?  His dead weight is a hassle, but not as big a hassle as him actively fighting them.  I guess we'll have a rematch at the moat that the Greyjoys hold.

 

Dany...who cares?  Just like Bran and Rickon, she's finding out that being in charge isn't much fun.  Cool throne room though.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Snowblack

[90PercentGravity]

Right now I imagine three possibilities: Tyrion vs Jaime representing the Crown (Tyrion dies), Bronn as Tyrion's champion vs Jaime representing the Crown (Jaime dies), Jaime as Tyrion's champion vs Meryn representing the Crown (Jaime dies).

 

I forgot about Varys. Very disappointing. Since when does Varys want the throne?

 

ETA. I don't know how trial by combat works. If the champion loses and dies, does the defendant still get punished, or is the death of the champion the blood the gods require?

Edited May 12, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Snowblack]

I don't think for a moment that Varys wants the throne.  Varys doesn't know Oberyn, and I think he's trying to misdirect him.  Just as he said he didn't know if he could trust Tyrion at first.

[stillshimpy]

Wow, and I thought I couldn't actually be more annoyed with Theon's story.  At least Yara did get to kick some major ass, but as far as the "How fast can you run?" thing goes, they weren't running from those dogs -- I think Yara just decided "this is not worth it, he's a destroyed husk of a creature, and I'm not killing the dogs" and just left, since they weren't fleeing those dogs.  

 

What a disappointing story.  Half a season wondering what will happen when Yara shows up, and Theon attempts to annoy her to actual death.  

 

Tyrion speculation:  I agree that Jaime will die somehow.  That whole "I'll take over Casterly Rock" felt like the moment in those cop movies where the captain says he's only got a month left before he retires.  Bad omen.

 

Seriously, that was almost chilling, Tywin: "Done" Me: "Oh God, Jaime's going to die!"  Also, Pallas, at long freaking last, we have confirmation that Tywin knows those children are Jaime's, "You will father children with the last name of Lannister".  What a creepy family.  

 

What a dud of a trial though.  Including producing Shae to be a cliche of a scorned woman.  Is she really supposed to be so dim that she can't figure out that Tyrion said those things to try and save her?  She sold out Sansa too?  So much for "I love that girl, I would kill for her" I guess.  Just disappointing.  Even the trial by combat, does Tyrion just not realize that Jaime can't fight any longer? 

 

Oh good, Dany's story involved compensation for goats.  Whee.  

 

But at least the harbor at Braavos was the coolest damned thing so far.  Also, fairly obviously Davos is the one who can lead men. Stannis can lead the lemon-sucking-activities.  At those he excels.   

[North Star]

ETA. I don't know how trial by combat works. If the champion loses and dies, does the defendant still get punished, or is the death of the champion the blood the gods require?

Lysa's still with us, so I think the champion's death is all that matters.

[Pallas]

I was thrilled by the final scene. I had no clock in sight and actually said aloud -- and very loudly -- "Don't you dare be over!"  

 

A Show replied, The Rains of Castamere.

 

Since he was arrested, Tyrion has not been allowed to see Bronn.  But he would have known how Jaime's training with him was going before that.  Since then, we've seen Jaime improve, and I'd bet Tyrion would expect that.  I really don't think either Jaime or Tyrion dies, but I'll be damned if I could say how they both come out alive.  Well. What if Tyrion named Jaime as his champion, leaving Loras to defend the Crown?  

 

Stubbornly, shimpy, I think Tywin was acknowledging the rumors of the incest, not the the truth of it.  But I agree that it's the closest he's come to confirming that he believes it, and I may be wrong.  And how can Charles Dance invest a single word with such gravitas:  "One."

 

The dragon was superb.  Just as he came into view over the cliff, some helicopters roared over my house -- I have no idea why, but it was incredibly disconcerting. Perfectly timed with the dragon's appearance and louder than hell.  

 

Yara's ruined epic rescue was pitiful, but bravely done, and she survived.  Will she believe in the Theon who appears at the Moat, or will Theon finally have a moment of clarity?  

 

Davos did some fine work there there with Mycroft of Braavos.   So our spec was right -- Davos is commissioning the pirate to rob the borrowed gold?

[abelard]

Right now I imagine three possibilities: Tyrion vs Jaime representing the Crown (Tyrion dies), Bronn as Tyrion's champion vs Jaime representing the Crown (Jaime dies), Jaime as Tyrion's champion vs Meryn representing the Crown (Jaime dies).

 

Interesting spec.  I wonder if it might be Bronn (for Tyrion) vs. Oberyn Martell (for the Crown) -- Crown wins.  But I like this idea others are throwing around that maybe Jaime will have to fight for the Crown and will sacrifice himself so Tyrion can go free.  But why on earth would Tywin allow Jaime to risk himself by fighting for the Crown, especially knowing that Jaime is not at his best?  I can't wait to see what Tyrion thinks of...he surely must have a plan of some kind.  It's true that if Tyrion is set free b/c of trial-by-combat, that is the only possible chance of freedom Tyrion has, since he is now 1000% sure that a trial-by-court will go against him.

 

I question the Iron Bank's backing Stannis on the basis of Tywin being close to death and there being no clear "manager" in line after him.  Stannis is, what?  A hard 45?  50?  Who will inherit after Stannis?  There's no other Baratheon that anyone knows of (isn't Stannis sort of concealing Shireen from the world?).  Just seems so short-term to back Stannis, for the inheritance reason anyway.

 

Varys went, in one episode, from being my favorite sneaky bastard in KL to being on my pigs**t list.  Ugh.  IA with Snowblack though that Varys doesn't want the throne, that was misdirection.  I also think Varys misrepresented his sexuality, but that's just me.

 

Shae may have lied to save Tyrion's life.  She may have been captured by Tywin's men and then threatened and schooled by Tywin into performing this bit of theater, which Tywin intends to result in Tyrion's life saved (though lived out at the Wall) and Jaime taking his proper place at Casterly Rock.  

 

Oh, and Yara's story: I think she had to see how far gone Theon is in order to give up on him.  I actually think she played it right.  She went in with a special forces unit to try to do a rapid extraction of a prisoner, she gets there and the prisoner has been broken and brainwashed beyond all saving, so she gets out.  If Yara hadn't gone in, she would have seemed heartless.  If Yara had continued to fight for Theon after she saw what he is, she would have seemed stupid.  I think she played the cards as well as she could.  Now I'm just afraid she'll be killed in the next ep. 

Edited May 12, 2014 by abelard

[Snowblack]

Am I the only one who thought the Thenns were climbing up that cliff in the goatherder scene?  LOL.  Those cannibals have me really creeped out when I'm relieved it's just a dragon.

[catrox14]

Poor Theon. That is just gut wrenching.  Poor bastard.  :(. He's so broken. 

 

Yay Tyrion! That was a great big fuck you to the lot of them.  Well played, Tyrion.

[Pallas]

Maybe the Black Dragon really is a former mad Targ king.  Why incinerate the entire herd, dummy, for a single snack?  

 

Shae may have lied to save Tyrion's life.  She may have been captured by Tywin's men and then threatened and schooled by Tywin into performing this bit of theater, which Tywin intends to result in Tyrion's life saved (though lived out at the Wall) and Jaime taking his proper place at Casterly Rock.

 

I like this spec, abelard.  I hope it's true but I'm not sure -- Shae seemed pretty oblivious to what was actually going on with Tyrion their last days together, and may really have believed his renunciation.  And so, followed him in the same despairing line of thought: "I wish I were the whore you think I am!"  

 

I think it may depend on how Tywin played her, after apprehending her.  If Tywin threatened her, Shae might have got her back up again, and also seen that Tyrion had been right about his father's power.  If, on the other hand, Tywin sympathized and played into her jealousy, she may have half-convinced herself of the story that she told about Tyrion and Sansa.  That story sounded more like something Shae came up with on her own, than something Tywin would concoct. 

 

What is Varys up to?  There's no way he chooses this moment to show his hand -- and to the stranger from Dorne -- when he has concealed it for decades.  I think he will pay Oberyn a call at the brothel.  And the sorceror in a box.  He might make for a fine champion for Tyrion.   

[AlphaLine]

So wait what? All the badass iron islanders ran away from 3 dudes ( one without any armor! ) and 2 dogs. Okay..

 

Moment I saw the sheepherder and his daughter I knew these people are going to die. Very surprising they didn't ( I was thinking that this was going to be the Cannibals attacking Mole's town ).

 

So did the Iron Bank give Stannis some money or not? And what did he promise them in return? Man that scene was so confusing.

[arry the orphan]

Didn't Bolton order his bastard to take an important moat 4 episodes ago? He said his army is trapped, because of the Iron Islanders there. At the same time he ordered Locke to find Bran and Rickon. So Locke managed to join the NW, win Jon Snows trust and travel to to Crasters house, while the bastard is still at home screwing around? They all are really travelling at the speed of plot! And Theons is really just pathetic at this point.

 

So, we get another trial by combat? Really a stupid move by Tyrion, especially after Jaime made sure he wouldn't be executed. Oh well, I guess sword fights make for good television, but this can't go well for Tyrion and Jaime.

[AlphaLine]

Exactly. TIme just flows at the speed of plot these days.

Wildlings south of the wall are just running around eating people. While Mance Rayder is doing whatever. Not like they're pressed for time or anything.

Not to mention, Bran covered 60 miles in two months? That's lame. It's lame even for a lame kid.

 

I just realized this episode sums up Iron Islanders once and for all. They're all 'iron' when it comes to raping and pillaging, but when faced with a real army they just run away, or surrender.

[janjan]

My money's on Jaime for Tyrion vs. Merwyn for the crown. Jaime (Bronn's star pupil) wins and Tyrion lives to scheme another day.  Jaime goes to Casterly Rock and marries Brienne, and Cersei goes batshit. Er, I mean, pigshit. Lots of it. Drowning in it. Heh heh.

 

I *love* Oberyn! The way he slouches at the trial like he's never been so bored but asks the sharpest questions. Is that the actor's natural accent or is he putting it on? It's very good either way. I'm moving to Dorne.

 

Poor Mace. Tywin: "Get me pen and paper [that's a good lackey]" Olenna's genes for brains must be recessive.

 

I still think Varys is on Tyrion's side. Or rather, on the side of the realm, for which he thinks Tyrion is the last best hope. Perhaps he figures that Tywin won't execute his son, so let's just get this farce over with and get him sent to the Wall. And Varys did advise Tyrion, as they looked down at the sorcerer in the box, to play the long game.

 

Oh Stannis. Where would you be without Ser Davos to save your arse. (Loved Davos's explaining to the Iron Bankers the diff between a  pirate and a smuggler.) Can't wait to see the heist. I hope it happens right under the crotch of that colossus at the entrance to Braavos.

 

Dany... [yawn]  But the dragon was beyond cool. More dragons, please. Yara's cool, too -- she knew Theon was dead and gone. But will she be fooled when he shows up pretending to be Theon again? Or will he fool himself and really become Theon again?

[abelard]

I'm moving to Dorne.

 

Dorne has the best wine, best weather, and most accepting society of the 7K.  Plus "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne."  Plus they survived dragons.  I think we should all move to Dorne.

 

Olenna's genes for brains must be recessive.

 

It only passes on to the females in the line.

 

I still think Varys is on Tyrion's side. Or rather, on the side of the realm, for which he thinks Tyrion is the last best hope. Perhaps he figures that Tywin won't execute his son, so let's just get this farce over with and get him sent to the Wall. And Varys did advise Tyrion, as they looked down at the sorcerer in the box, to play the long game.

 

Oh interesting.  Yeah, maybe Varys was "in" on the Tywin Plan or maybe he just could predict it well enough.  Playing along with Tywin does (in Varys's mind) just get it over with faster so Tyrion can get out of there.  Still, I'm peeved at the Spider for now.  Maybe he will redeem himself.  

Edited May 12, 2014 by abelard

[Pallas]

I *love* Oberyn! The way he slouches at the trial like he's never been so bored but asks the sharpest questions.

 

As Tyrion's rant built up momentum, we could see Oberyn as a blur in the background and at first, I thought he was laughing.  That would have been a wonderful choice.  

[Slovenly Muse]

I had such a hard time swallowing Shae's lies. I've always been sympathetic to her, and my gut tells me that she is being made to say these things and it is not her choice. But if it is not her choice, then why go into so much detail? Why bring up and twist things that have no significance to the trial and seem only intended to hurt Tyrion? I even wondered, when she repeated her words "I am yours, and you are mine" whether it was her way of reminding Tyrion that despite her lies, what they had was real and she does still feel it, and she only used the platform of the trial to state it again. But that doesn't sit right either, because it is so clear that she is hurting him as much as she possibly can, beyond what Cersei (who, knowing about Shae, may have caught her before she boarded that ship and coerced her to testify) would know and require her to say. I just don't even know how to feel about this. I'm almost tempted to ask a bookwalker how I should react, because her testimony does not make sense to me at all.

 

As for the bank, I can see why they wouldn't want to put their money (so to speak) on Danaerys. Doesn't her family have a history of some really, really creative insanity? They don't know her. I don't think they'd have any reason to believe that putting another Targaeryen on the throne would result in a more stable/less demented monarch than before. And deranged, unpredictable queens can't be trusted to settle their debts in a timely, reasonable, immolation-free fashion.

 

Thinking of Danaerys, her storyline this episode isn't quite sitting right with me either. Something about it is setting off that little bell of discomfort in the back of my mind that tells me the story may be wandering off into some racially icky territory. It's like... you know how if you start a brand new project that you've never tried before, sometimes you want to do a practice run beforehand to make sure you understand how it's all going to work when you do it for real? And for the practice run, you just use whatever crappy materials you've got lying around so that you don't feel like there's anything at stake if you screw it up? I kind of feel like the writers have given Danaerys these 'weird, foreign' slave cities to practice her queening on so she can screw them up with her violence and ignorance and naivete, and her mistakes won't really "matter" because it's all just build-up, just trial-and-error, leading to her becoming fit to rule her "real" kingdom full of people who DO matter, when the time comes. And it's subtle, but it bothers me. I mean, burning cities and raising armies is one thing, but there's something about this use of darker-skinned foreigners as a kind of 'dress rehearsal' that could become problematic if the writers aren't careful. Anyway, I'm interested to see how it plays out from here.

 

And in other news, I love Tyrion, like, a lot. That was a brilliant move at the end, even if it might get him killed. Just, his outright refusal to play his father's destructive, sadistic games, and go as far off-script as he can, just to throw the old man's carefully-laid plans back in his face. I love it.

 

Theon. Theon! That actor did a fantastic job this week of conveying Theon's absolute helpless terror of taking that bath. And as for Ramsay, seeing him come into the kennels all blood-splattered and wild-eyed, reminded me of the first (and only other) time I saw that actor. He was portraying the sweet, gentle, vulnerable stage actor Ben Theodore on the British sitcom "Grandma's House" who was so shy and sensitive that he couldn't even speak above a murmur. And he has sold both roles so completely - how's THAT for range? My heart broke a little for Yara, risking her life to save her brother, only to find his identity and humanity has been ripped away so severely that he is no longer able to be saved by her. She was right to leave him and save herself, it just sucks that it came to that.

 

Blessedly light on rape this week. Hopefully this will continue. I need a breather!

[justawatcher]

Color me completely lost! Not too bright on the long game on this one, so ya'll help me please.

Shae- didn't Bronn say he put her on the boat himself or watched her get on the boat or left her at the TSA security line for the boat? So long game- is Bronn now working for Cersei?

 

Pycelle- WTF? Pycelle comes up with the necklace in hand, names Ser Dontos out loud, and explains and implicates Sansa as well. How did we get from Littlefinger and his crossbow to that necklace showing up in court? Or more long game, Littlefinger said he had the necklace made. By whom? On whose orders? And who made the big picture decision to involve and trust Pycelle enough to not only supply the poison but then put the necklace together, give the handoff to Ser Dontos, and have Olenna remove the stone and poison Joffrey? My mind is reeling because now this is a much bigger plot than LF/Olenna. Now we have Shae, Bronn, LF, the Tyrells,

Someone please, very slowly, spell out this murder plot because I'm not getting it.

 

Jamie- when Jamie agreed to get married and move to Casterly Rock and marry a woman of acceptable (whatever the quality was) and have legitimate Lannister babies, who else did the girl squee and shouted "Brienne! He's going to marry Brienne!" Nothing ever works out that well though. Maybe one of Oberyn's 8 daughters?

 

The Hound- when they mentioned the Hound and his trek across the whatever, wasn't it Oberyn that perked right up? And all that knowledge of the Hound and not one person along the route thought to mention he was traveling with a teenager?

 

Why do we care about the Greyjoys again? We have a season of torture to end up with a moat? Couldn't we have simply killed off Theon and gone and fought for the moat? Are they actually going to try and pass him off as important again? Yara and the soldiers all saw him. They know whatever happens from this point, he was broken.

[arry the orphan]

 

So long game- is Bronn now working for Cersei?

 

That would explain, why Shae didn't leave KL after all! Bronn said he was followed, but swore that Shae left the city on a boat. Bronn really is just a sellsword and Cersei could have paid him more than Tyrion. Tyrion probably hoped that Bronn would fight for him again in his trial by combat, which is unlikely to happen now.

 

 

Bronn as Tyrion's champion vs Jaime representing the Crown (Jaime dies)

 

I would say the other way around. Bronn will fight for Cersei and Jaime for Tyrion! After all, no one knows Jaimes weaknesses better than Bronn and it would be interesting to see what Tywin does when he realizes that Cersei is planning to kill both his sons.

 

 

Littlefinger said he had the necklace made. By whom? On whose orders? And who made the big picture decision to involve and trust Pycelle enough to not only supply the poison but then put the necklace together, give the handoff to Ser Dontos, and have Olenna remove the stone and poison Joffrey? My mind is reeling because now this is a much bigger plot than LF/Olenna. Now we have Shae, Bronn, LF, the Tyrells,

Someone please, very slowly, spell out this murder plot because I'm not getting it.

 

There is no reason to believe that Shae, Bronn or Pycelle were in any way involved in the murder plot. Tywin ordered Cersei to bring Shae to him before the wedding. So I think Bronn just lied when he told Tyrion that she had left the city. Cersei paid him to betray Tyrion. I suspect that Cersei has spies following everyone around in KL (including Jaime and Bronn). Thats also why she knew that Jaime visited Tyrion in prison.

 

The murder plot as I understand:

Littlefinger made the necklace with the poison. He promised the fool money in order to get the necklace to Sansa (and perhaps inform Olenna about the whereabouts of the poison). Olenna put the poison in the wine and Littlefinger killed the fool and left his body behind with the evidence that Sansa was involved. Sansas involvment was supposed to implicate Tyrion (which wasn't necessary as he was forced by Joffrey to be his cup bearer). I don't think LF wanted it to be such a clear case against Tyrion anyway, just circumstancial evidence (like Tyrions knife in S1). That sort of suspicions without evidence is probably more useful for his philosophy of "confuse everyone". Pycelle was just the expert witness, who examined Joffreys body and the evidence found in the fools boat.

 

 

Yes, and he also perked up when Jorah was mentioned, and the mountain, of course.

 

The Hound, not the moutain. However I noticed reaction shots from Oberyn everytime dragons (First in the brothel, now in the council) are mentioned. Tywin said that only Dorne was able to withstand the dragons, so I wonder if they have some secret weapons against them.

Edited May 12, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Glory]

And in other news, I love Tyrion, like, a lot. That was a brilliant move at the end, even if it might get him killed. Just, his outright refusal to play his father's destructive, sadistic games, and go as far off-script as he can, just to throw the old man's carefully-laid plans back in his face. I love it.

 

Yes. I just loved it! His goal since the moment we've met him is to throw wrenches into the plans of whoever and he just does it masterfully. Peter Dinklage is just amazing in so many ways, I had chills watching his speech at the end. 

 

God, I hope Tyrion stays alive. He's my favorite. 

 

No Sansa in this epsiode, right? 

[Snowblack]

Someone please, very slowly, spell out this murder plot because I'm not getting it.

 

I think the murder plot is so convoluted that it doesn't pass the smell test.  It makes no sense because the conspirators left so much to chance.  So I've given up on figuring out what the writer wanted us to believe about what happened, beyond Little Finger and Olenna being the responsible parties.  I enjoyed Margaery's face during the trial, since she's the only one there who knows the truth.  Maybe she's not as cold as I thought, considering her reaction to seeing an innocent man's life ruined, if not sacrificed.

 

Glory, no Starks at all in this episode! I'm pretty sure this is a first.

[stillshimpy]

Snowblack: I think the murder plot is so convoluted that it doesn't pass the smell test.  It makes no sense because the conspirators left so much to chance.

 

That seems to be the calling-card of nearly all assassination attempts, successful or not, in this particular story.  I think every writer has a weakness, and that seems to be a weakness within the story.  It's really pretty freaking ludicrous, so either a lot of the plan (like a scene with Sansa being urged by Shae to put on that necklace, or something of that nature) didn't make it on to the screen; or it's just possible that this is one of the writers consistent weaknesses.  The wine merchant assassination attempt was similarly "Uh...what?  Let me get this straight, in a world where it's a dull wedding without a disembowelment and killing is just a way of life, the best the actual Crown could do was a dude with poisoned wine, hanging around, hoping that Dany would wander by, accept the wine to be sent to the camp...and then be the first person to drink it?  What the actual fuck?" 

 

So the "who killed Joffrey? Oh, it was the necklace?" plot is like that, only about ten times worse, because it relies on a slew of coincidences -- including, but not limited to --  Sansa wearing that necklace and Olenna being given an opportunity to essentially paw Sansa at some length, without Sansa in anyway twigging to the "Bad touch! Bad touch!" of it all.  It just gets worse from there.   

 

Necklace and Knifey, sitting in a tree, plotting to overthrow the Crown, you see.  I'm not going to go on with that meme, but it basically would make more sense as a nursery rhyme in which the cutlery sailed away in a pea green boat.  Rowed by a metric fuckton of hallucinogenic drugs, because that's the only way this crap makes anything resembling sense as depicted.  

 

Kind of like Yara managing to murder her way into the kennel room,  then Ramsay ending up at the other end, so he's trapped...and for some reason backing down from Rabid Rover.  Don't get me wrong; that's a scary dog.  However, not scarier than then axe and swords they were all sporting.   They'd been slaughtering folks with opposable thumbs and weapons to boot, but a dog the size of a ....granted, exceptionally vicious ...dog made them bug the fuck out after taking roughly six months to get there?  

 

Righty-oh! Sure? Why not.  

Edited May 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DemosthenesKey]

The Murder Plot (As I See It) (for justawatcher):

Granny Tyrell sees her favorite granddaughter betrothed to a colossal di... um. noblest boy that ever lived. Yeah, Pycelle. =_= She chats it up with Littlefinger, who maybe carefully implies that things sure would be nicer if everyone's favorite psychopath would stop crossbowing people in the everything. They hatch an extremely convoluted plan to kill him at the wedding, with Littlefinger hiring Dontos to give the necklace to Sansa so that she can unknowingly sneak in the poison (and conveniently enough be implicated) whereupon Granny will fuss with it and then inconspicuously plop some in Joff's marital cake. Straightfoward insofar as GoT goes.

Now's where it gets... *sigh* ... interesting. Littlefinger decides that this is the perfect opportunity to swoop in and be the dashing hero from the storytales, so that now maybe Cat (er, Sansa) will love him back. Besides, the Lannisters will still have a perfect suspect in the form of Tyrion, right? Right.

Meanwhile, Tyrion pulls a Nymeria on Shae, telling her to get the heck out of dodge. He tells Bronn to make sure she gets on a ship. Bronn says she got on the ship, but my personal spec splits into two ways: either she decided to hell with Tyrion and then snuck OFF the ship, going to Tywin, or she tried to sneak back to Tyrion and summarily got caught by Tywin because dear GOD that girl is just not bright, I'm sorry.

Joff chokes on his pie in an extremely unfun way, Littlefinger gets lucky AGAIN by dint of Tyrion being his impromptu cupbearer, and everyone's pretty sure they know who did it.

Littlefinger goes and picks up Sansa, crossbowing Dontos in the face and presumably letting the boat drift away to make it look like a deal done bad - they could probably twist it as "Sansa caught poor Dontos with her Wily Feminine Charms, hur hur, then killed him because she just has the look of killer, doesn't she..."

I refuse to believe that Littlefinger, a guy who knows a thing or two about trust and mistrust, would be so inutterably stupid as to trust someone like Pycelle, so I guess I'll chalk up Pycelle having the same poison Littlefinger used another massive Littlefinger Luck. You'd think the guy drinks Felix Felicis like water... In any event, Pycelle having had that poison (the Strangler, he said?) means that Pycelle can easily recognize its effects, so that explains his whole thing at the trial.

To sum up: Littlefinger and the Tyrells are playing their own game, in which Littlefinger is probably playing his own sub-game of I Want The World, I Want The Whole World. That's an entirely separate thing from Cersei, Tywin, Shae, and (in the event Bronn was bought out by Cersei, which I find unlikely since I think Pod or Varys told cell!Tyrion that he was put under house arrest or something) Bronn - who are all on the same page about getting at Tyrion but do NOT know who really killed The Beloved King (aka LF and Emma Peel)*.

*When I say "all on the same page", I mean in the sense of the trial - obviously each has their own separate motivations. For example, Cersei wants to kill Tyrion, Tywin wants to get rid of Tyrion with as little fuss as possible (hopefully while procuring Jaime), Shae seems to want to get back at Tyrion since she can't understand why she really should have left about a season ago and he had to make her leave instead, and Bronn (possibly) wants to avoid dying.

[DirewolfPup]

Sooooo.... Tywin is sending out 100 men to kill The Hound....

 

That's all I have to say about that.

[DemosthenesKey]

Ugh. Now that I got that off my chest, on to my actual thoughts on the episode. XP

Stannis and Davos! God knows that I always feel a bit uncomfortable when Stannis's enthusiastic missionary puts someone to Extra Crispy, but I think I might actually have to root for him now. Davos sold me. I'm not saying that he's a good man by any stretch of the means (although I think he might be a just one, possibly), but that speech made me cheer a little inside.

Dany! What's that, you say? One of the people you killed wasn't cartoonishly evil, but seems to have been a reasonably decent man in an admittedly horrible class system? Rabidash! Or maybe rubbish, one of the two.

I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

Theon! ... Or I guess I should say "Reek". From now on I'm calling him Reek, because that was truly awful and I feel bad for Yara, who will forevermore be my pirate princess and we'll get married and live happily ever after and... Ramsay's going to kill her someday, isn't he. All I can hope is that Reek remembers who he is, and that's pretty much my expectation from this plotline: Ramsay does horrible things, probably for at least a season longer than everyone expects him to live, and then Reek decides he's a Greyjoy and kills him, redeeming a tiny bit of himself in that special little Death Equals Redemption kind of way.

The Trial! ... Not too much to say about that other than, "Shae is really a SPECIAL kind of stupid, isn't she?" Because I don't know what she thinks is going to happen to her after this is all over, even if things work out as she apparently wants them to, and Tyrion dies because he was mean to her, oh noes...

Edited May 12, 2014 by DemosthenesKey

[RadiantAerynSun]

AGHHH!!! Shae is the stupidest bitch ever! (Assuming she wasn't coerced, which from the performance, she didn't seem to be). So DID Tywin speak to her in the Tower of the Hand before the wedding? I always assumed she left before he had the chance. That would have been before Joffrey was even killed so WTH???? Was Tywin in on it then, or did he just threaten Shae in general & maybe jail her, and only let her out now that she had a role to play. I'll have to go back and rewatch the early S4 eps. I agree, Bronn may have been bought off by Cersei, which is disappointing, as I always liked Bronn, but I don't think Bronn ever hid the fact that while he joked around with Tyrion, it was really about the money at the end of the day (this was highlighted several times over the last 4 years IMO)

 

Loved Tyrion throwing a wrench in the works. You can tell he'd finally had enough of trying to prove himself to these people - it would never be enough. I can't decide if he is going to name Jaime as a champion or if the Crown will. He is handicapped, so I can't see Cersei expecting him to beat whoever else Tyrion might name. So I am going to guess maybe Tyrion will name Jaime himself, as a callback to season 1 when he tried to call him at the Eyrie (which was even mentioned in a recent episode). Fighting for the Crown ??? Maybe Bronn? Maybe the Mountain? I don't know...

 

Maybe the Crown WILL name Jaime and the two brothers will conspire a jailbreak together rather than have to have one or the other of them die? It just seems like a losing strategy on the Crown's part, given Jaime's handicap.

 

Found Dany's scenes interesting. As some predicted it looks like her decisions may come back to bite her. I dont' think she was bored as much as thinking, gosh, so many supplicants, and not all of them will be easily satisfied. Starting to feel the heavy responsibility for her people. The goatherd was one thing - pay a little gold. But if she has to face 163 more angry relatives of (wrongly ?) crucified men that could get very ... awkward.

[AngelKitty]

I don't want Tyrion or Jamie to be killed.

 

 As for Shae:

1. She did it for spite.
2. Cersei coerced her.
3. Tywin coerced her. 
4. Littlefinger coerced her

Littlefinger seems to be behind this whole plot so I think it's him. Bronn could have seen her off on a ship but we don't know whose ship or where it went.

 

I really wanted Ramsey to be killed.  And I was kinda disappointed Yara didn't put Theon out of his misery

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Sooooo.... Tywin is sending out 100 men to kill The Hound....

 

I think he just offered 100 gold dragons to kill him. Not sure how many men that will send after him but I assume it's a lot of money!

Oh and POOR THEON... I think Yara just gave up because she realized he was totally broken. Can't explain why they didn't just kill shirtless!Ramsay once they had him cornered. Maybe the bad blood of killing Roose Bolton's "natural born son" would be more trouble than it was worth to save the empty husk that is Theon? I don't think Yara is stupid enough to fall for it if Theon shows up later and is all "oh no I just escaped, sorry about that, I am totally better now".

PS I can see now the purpose of Ramsay's whole freeing Theon/Gotcha! trick last season, as now Theon is totally scared shitless that any attempt at rescue is just another trick or test of his loyalty. (as is any opportunity to take a bath)

[RadiantAerynSun]

I was a little confused and will have to rewatch, I wasn't clear on if the Bank actually gave Davos money or if he is going to try to steal some.

[Snowblack]

I thought it was an offer. Varys was hinting to Oberyn that if he stopped pursing his desires all the time, that Oberyn could make a play for the Throne himself. I figure that Varys has decided that Tyrion is a spent resource and that he needs to find a new horse to ride. Sure, Varys will try to save Tyrion's life with the Night's Watch offer, (just like Ned), but Tyrion and Ned were tools for Varys. If your tool breaks then you need to find a new one, no matter how much you liked your old one.

 

How did I miss that?  It makes so much more sense than Varys claiming he wants the throne.  Yes, you're absolutely right.  Varys is cultivating a relationship with Oberyn.  Thanks for clarifying what struck me as a very strange scene. 

[MrMicrophone]

1) All the idea seems to have been Implicate Sansa and Get Her Free. Joff pointing to Tyrion and Cersei blaming Tyrion may have been utterly unanticipated by the plotters.

2) Tywin has said previously that there would Be Consequences if Tyrion brought his whore to Kings Landing. Cersei delivering Shae to Tywin before the Wedding was probably an attempt to curry favor. Tywin is merely using Shae to hurt/humiliate Tyrion (presumably before he has Shae killed). 

As to why Shae's doing this? 

1) Her life is in actual danger. Tyrion told her so, and he knows his father Best.

2) She may actually be right, that the more she humiliates Tyrion, the easier his father will go on him.

[Pallas]

I wasn't clear on if the Bank actually gave Davos money or if he is going to try to steal some.

 

Both, I believe.  The Iron Bank gave Stannis the loan, and Davos has hired the pirate to steal it (paid in advance, both in the bathhouse and by the gold Davos had dropped off at his house.)  The pirate will return the gold to Davos, who will smuggle it into Dragonstone. 

[Snowblack]

I would like to think that Shae is doing something other than playing the scorned woman, but I'm having trouble seeing it.  What I do know is that the fear on her face was real when Tyrion demanded trial by combat.  She obviously still has some love for him.  I'm guessing that she was assured Tyrion would be spared, just as Jaime was.  I'm not clear on whether a loss in a trial by combat means death of the defendant.  Could he still be exiled to the wall?  Maybe not.  Maybe the rules for trial by combat don't allow room for leniency, since it is the Gods judging the defendant's guilt or innocence.  

 

ETA:  TellSackett, I don't know whether Braavos is a slave city or would have any reason to fear Dany. I just think if the bank were to hedge its bets and support someone other than the Lannisters, Stannis doesn't make much sense.  Dany does.  In any case, she doesn't need their money at this point, and I don't think she would take it if offered.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Snowblack

[arry the orphan]

 

Supporting Dany? Isn't Bravos a slave city? I would think that by now, slave cites would not want anything to do with Dany.

 

And Dany doesn't need help from the Iron Bank. They said in the last episode that she could take Kings Landing by her own, but she decided to rule over the slave cities instead.

 

And Oberyn at the council meeting made me laugh. He was the only one who didn't stand up when Tywin entered the room. He tested Unsullied on the battlefield and in the bedroom and the look on his face when Tywin makes Mace fetch his quill was just priceless. And I agree, Varys was telling Oberyn that if he gets his "desires" under control, he might become a player in the Game of Thrones himself.

 

And Varys' statement wasn't that bad. He repeated something that was said in a Council meeting, where other witnesses were present as well. And he suggested that Tyrion was sympathetic to the North. Both statements are true. The only openly lying was Shae (and Cersei when answering Oberyn about the "debt".)

Edited May 12, 2014 by arry the orphan

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

And Varys' statement wasn't that bad. He repeated something that was said in a Council meeting, where other witnesses were present as well. And he suggested that Tyrion was sympathetic to the North. Both statements are true.

 

I agree, he was very careful not to lie (he doesn't want to be known as a liar, as he said before the wedding to Tyrion) and was even honest when Tyrion "called him out" to answer a question.

[Llywela]

Hey, Lancel was namechecked in this episode - Jaime asked with scorn if Tywin expected him to carry on the family name. I guess that means he's still alive somewhere after all.

[WhiteStumbler]

As soon as I saw a peaceful, idyllic scene featuring a goatherd, his (supposed) son, and their charismatic flock, I literally said "uh oh."

 

When the dragon appeared and started lunch, I said "of course".

 

A Show is cruel, but at least neither of the goatherds got fried. Or eaten.

[abelard]

I think he just offered 100 gold dragons to kill him. Not sure how many men that will send after him but I assume it's a lot of money!

 

I'll have to rewatch this scene to be certain, but I think Tywin said "silver stags," not "gold dragons."  I have a feeling Robert instituted some kind of new currency bearing his sigil (the "silver stag") that was maybe less than a gold dragon?  So it's not like $1000, it's like $500 -- the bounty on The Hound's head, that is.  

[WhiteStumbler]

Two sets of correspondences...

 

Two characters (Tyrion and Theon aka Reek) refused their siblings offer of freedom from prison.

 

Three sets of three sat in judgement of others - Dany, Jorah, and Selmy in Meereen, the Three Bankers hearing Stannis and Davos the Deal Maker in Braavos, and the Three Judges at the Trial of Tyrion.

 

/geekout

[stillshimpy]

As soon as I saw a peaceful, idyllic scene featuring a goatherd, his (supposed) son, and their charismatic flock, I literally said "uh oh."

 

Weirdly, my husband has always wanted to get a pet goat.  Why?  No clue, he just thinks they are super cute and despite living in an area that would allow us to have up to two horses, we aren't allowed to have goats (I'm assuming because of the unearthly noises they can make).  So as soon as the idyllic pastoral scene appeared before us, my husband started enthusing about goats, and would it be nice to have a pet goat...

 

"Uh...honey, I think that those goats might be about to...." *flambe* 

 

"Guess they weren't zoned for goats either."  

 

But it was like a moment from Galaxy Quest, "Have any of you ever actually watched the show?" 

[janjan]

I'm almost tempted to ask a bookwalker how I should react [to Shae's testimony].

We have a 12-step program for that. The plank.

 

Just kidding. :-)  Some things might have no explanation other than plot machination. How did the deserter in S1E1 get over the wall? The writers are juggling so many fiery torches at once that they are bound to drop one now and then. Maybe they just needed a last straw for Tyrion -- some way to drive him over the edge so that his arc doesn't end in a fizzle at the wall.

 

Or else maybe Shae is just plain stupid.

[MrMicrophone]

janjan,

"How did the deserter in S1E1 get over the wall?"

'e didn't. he went under just like everyone else from the Night's Watch. 

The only reason the Wildlings have to go over is because they don't know how to get back inside otherwise.

 

... after going under, he was probably Supposed To go report to Mormont and Thorne, but he just kept running.

[90PercentGravity]

I was totally worried/terrified that we were going to be subjected to Theon's gash during the bathing scene.

Edited May 14, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[abelard]

Me too, 90Percent.  Me too.  

[stillshimpy]

I think everyone in the audience was.  I wasn't looking and made my husband give the "how bad is this?" report on the first watch.  

 

It does make sense that Theon is just that terrified of anything that would look like a rescue or an attempt to save him. 

 

I'm personally hoping that Ramsay's plan to make Theon act like Theon again might actually backfire in that old "be careful what you pretend to be ..." way and that Theon will finally kill that Sadistic jackass.  

[DemosthenesKey]

Knowing Game of Thrones, it'll probably happen only after Theon is staring at his hands (which are covered in Yara's blood) in horror. He will then kill Ramsay, who will whisper at the last moment: "I lie awake at night... thinking... of your gash." Theon weeps, end scene.

In reality, I quite like Ramsay (not the actual character, obviously) because he seems to be our replacement for Joffrey at this time. Someone to hate vigorously and all that while secretly admiring how absolutely insane the actor manages to make him.

[Snowblack]

From the Tyrion thread:

 

Oh good, I'm glad it wasn't just me.  Peter Dinklage gave it the old college try, but I use that phrase intentionally, because it was that sort of overblown stuff that is usually spotted on the collegiate stage.  He's often so incredibly good, but something felt off there.  It felt very manufactured vs. real.  Again, just to me and for anyone that really enjoyed it?  Cool! Then the scene worked better for you than for me and I'm glad. 

....

I agree Pallas, Charles Dance is the actor who turned in the award winning performance for this episode, I thought and runner-up to him was actually the actor who plays Jaime, to my mind.  The "Holy shit, what just happened?" look on Jaime's face when Tywin immediately agreed to spare Tyrion's life in exchange for Jaime leaving the Kingsguard was great and NOT easy to pull off.  He wasn't just astounded, he was immediately on his guard, scenting danger, but also grateful.  Beat the stuffing out of the over-emphasis of the Outrage Smackdown from the Stand, I thought. 

 

I agree with you both.  Dinklage's performance was forced.  He's better in those quiet heartwrenching moments ("Shae, don't do this") than in scenes like his "angry monster" scene.  But I think Alfie Allen turned in the best performance I've ever seen from him.  Theon's terror and panic at the thought of a fake rescue was so real.  Followed by abject fear in that bath tub, braced for the pain that was sure to follow, not willing to believe that Ramsay's "reward" could possibly be anything pleasant.  And Charles Dance is always just brilliant.  I'm not sure he's had a single subpar scene in this series.  In any case, this episode had acting that was absolutely next level.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Snowblack