S07.E11: Secret Garden

[formerlyfreedom]

Eager to harness her burgeoning magical skills, Robin engages in a risky relationship with Mother Gothel. Meanwhile in Hyperion Heights, Roni and Kelly strike a deal with Eloise, desperate to save Lucy from her mysterious illness. But nothing comes without a price. As things finally come to a head between Victoria and Ivy, someone may have to pay with their life.

[ParadoxLost]

So is Wicked Nookie going to be a thing now?

Why is Regina now dressing like she escaped a retro Swiss Miss cocoa ad in the flashbacks?

It is irritating, really irritating, that Robin is named Robin.  I now understand why every TV character named for a parent is given a nickname.

Also, Beyoncé, Jay-Z, and Blue Ivy references make no sense without timeline shenanigans.

I sincerely have absolutely no idea why Gothel went to that much trouble or even gives a shit about Lucy waking up.  Why bother?  Is she trading up sacrifice candidates or something?

Was Regina behind the drugging at the end?  I thought the stuff at the bottom of the glass might be spelled apple seeds and motive to hide the truth from Henry to protect him.  But then cutting the hair and bothering to hide the identity threw me off.

Edited March 3, 2018 by ParadoxLost
I'm all alone, so I might as well edit this one.

[Rumsy4]

My live stream cut off half-way. So, I have to wait until tomorrow to see it on iTunes. The Zelena-WHook duo seemed interesting, what little I caught of their scenes.

24 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

It is irritating, really irritating, that Robin is named Robin.

I always spell her name Robyn. But it really is so irritating.

[CCTC]

A good part of this is my fault, because I have missed a number of episodes this year - because I am just not that invested in the Victoria/Drizella  Zelina/Robin relationships to really care about the big emotional moments they had in the show.   Although part of it is I feel the show tells you when you are supposed to feel emotional rather than build up to it.  They tell us Zelina and Regina are great sisters, but they never really saw the relationship build.  We have not seen Zelina and Robin enough together to really care about them.  Victoria and Druzilla have shown no signs of caring for one another until they needed to for the big moment (although that is something I might have missed in earlier episodes I have not seen.  I might have felt more about the family scene of Lucy waking up if they actually showed some chemistry or more family bonding prior to Lucy collapsing (again that might be because I missed some episodes).

I really liked Gothel when she was a shadowy figure who would appear threatening at the end of each episodes, but now she seems like she is just another female villain who sneers smugly.  I feel like I am watching the Black Fairy in a bad wig, whereas earlier I thought she had a more unique feel.  Most of the actresses playing their villains have been good, but I think they have gone to the pretty female witch type villain well once too often.  It has a bit of a been there done that feel to it.  Although she does seem to act more and is not just all talk compared to some of the villains.

Maybe because I am just as not into the show anymore, but as the dialogue always been this clunky?  Everything is so heavy-handed to say - here is where you are supposed tear up - here you are suppose to go ah -- here you are supposed to have hope - here you are supposed to chuckle at their witty one liners that show they have spunk..

Sorry - this was way too negative of a post.

[Writing Wrongs]

So every evil person gets their comeuppance but Regina? I laughed when she said "I'm not a monster."

I don't understand why the kids age, but the parents don't.

I was waiting for Tremaine to tell Drizella, "You would've been enough."

Edited March 3, 2018 by Writing Wrongs

[ParadoxLost]

2 minutes ago, CCTC said:

A good part of this is my fault, because I have missed a number of episodes this year - because I am just not that invested in the Victoria/Drizella  Zelina/Robin relationships to really care about the big emotional moments they had in the show.   

Its not about how many episodes were missed.  Its no different for me and I  watched the majority of the season.

4 minutes ago, CCTC said:

We have not seen Zelina and Robin enough together to really care about them. 

Its hard to connect to Robin when she was being a snotty little brat the whole time.

5 minutes ago, CCTC said:

 I might have felt more about the family scene of Lucy waking up if they actually showed some chemistry or more family bonding prior to Lucy collapsing (again that might be because I missed some episodes).

I used to wish that Henry would get dumped in a well of forgetfulness.  I really wished hard that Lucy didn't wake up this episode. I didn't realize that I felt that strongly negative about it.

 

8 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Maybe because I am just as not into the show anymore, but as the dialogue always been this clunky? 

Yes.  It has been.

9 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Sorry - this was way too negative of a post.

Apologizing for negativity? It has been a long time then. :)P

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

21 minutes ago, CCTC said:

A good part of this is my fault, because I have missed a number of episodes this year - because I am just not that invested in the Victoria/Drizella  Zelina/Robin relationships to really care about the big emotional moments they had in the show.   

Its not about how many episodes were missed.  Its no different for me and I  watched the majority of the season.

I haven't missed a single episode this Season, and it hasn't made any difference to how little I care about Henriella or Victoria or Robyn.

[CCTC]

46 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

It is irritating, really irritating, that Robin is named Robin

Ok - one last negative comment - when Robyn was talking fondly about her father and Zelina looked a bit wistful,  I thought that would be sweet if Zelina had not posed as his dead wife and that was how she was conceived or that her boy friend was the one who killed him - all while her father was really in love with her mother's sister.

[ParadoxLost]

2 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Ok - one last negative comment - when Robyn was talking fondly about her father and Zelina looked a bit wistful,  I thought that would be sweet if Zelina had not posed as his dead wife and that was how she was conceived or that her boy friend was the one who killed him - all while her father was really in love with her mother's sister.

I'm not usually one to dwell on the Robin/Zelena or Graham/Regina consent issues.  But I was unnerved several times when people were bringing up Gothel around WHook.

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

But I was unnerved several times when people were bringing up Gothel around WHook.

Same. Gothel's creep-factor is off the charts.

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm not usually one to dwell on the Robin/Zelena or Graham/Regina consent issues.  But I was unnerved several times when people were bringing up Gothel around WHook.

For me, it created a really bizarre juxtaposition because WHook was actually allowed to act like he felt violated and was a victim, but meanwhile in the same scene we have Robyn and Zelena bonding and talking about Robyn inheriting her father's talents, with no hint whatsoever that Robyn was conceived when Zelena raped her father while pretending to be the wife she murdered.

They're not even trying anymore with the timeline, are they? So, it's been nearly 18 years since the end of season six (since Robyn was an infant then and is 18 now) at the time when Lucy is an infant. Zelena hasn't aged a day, in spite of being in Storybrooke and not having magic. How long did it take Henry and Ella to get married and have Lucy? Because I thought I had to be overestimating the length of time from the end of season 6 until we saw adult Henry by saying it had to have been about ten years, which was a long time for Hook and Emma to be married before having a kid and put them in their early 40s, but it's even worse if it's been, say, 16 or so years. Or is time moving faster in Storybrooke now, so that Robyn grew up during the two or so years that passed in the Disenchanted Forest? If all of this is real time, then present day WHook would be about the same physical age he was when he met Emma in the first place in the Wish Realm. Maybe he's frozen at that age now, but what age is that supposed to be? Even if Hook Prime was in his early 30s at the end of season 6, if everything was passing in real time and it only took a couple of years between the time Henry and Ella first met to the time Lucy was born, then he'd have been in his mid-late 40s when WHook copied him. And Emma would be pregnant at about 47.

My power went out briefly during the first commercial break, but then it took a while for all the various routers to reboot, so it came back during the scene with Rogers and Weaver, where Weaver tried to convince Rogers that Eloise was evil. I feel like I missed something. Was there a flashback scene before that in which we saw WHook starting to help Zelena? The next time we saw the flashback, they were already searching for something. Did we see any reaction from her to there being a second Hook? I'm not even going to pretend to expect that we got any kind of update from Zelena on what's been going on in Storybrooke.

47 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

So every evil person gets their comeuppance but Regina? I laughed when she said "I'm not a monster."

Yeah, that got me, too. They kept talking about her being justified in casting the curse, but they've conveniently forgotten curse 1.0, which had an even flimsier justification than Victoria's rationale. Victoria was at least trying to save her daughter. Regina just wanted revenge. It was nice, though, to get one of those scenes of a villain justifying her actions to the person she was supposedly doing it for, only to have that person be disgusted. I guess we kind of got that with Zombie Daniel, though it was hard to tell because he was a zombie, but we totally missed Neal getting to freak out about what his father did to reach him.

How long has the curse been in effect? Did all these things Regina and Zelena were remembering about the bar really happen, or are these curse memories? If the curse has been in place for years, then these people should be even older, and we still don't know why Lucy decided they were cursed and decided to do something about it when she did.

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Did we see any reaction from her to there being a second Hook?

Yes. And she even name-dropped Emma. Her nickname for WHook is Nook (New Hook).

The age and timeline shenanigans are so idiotic, I've cycled from being frustrated to apathetic to being really freaking pissed off. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

My power went out briefly during the first commercial break, but then it took a while for all the various routers to reboot, so it came back during the scene with Rogers and Weaver, where Weaver tried to convince Rogers that Eloise was evil. I feel like I missed something. Was there a flashback scene before that in which we saw WHook starting to help Zelena? The next time we saw the flashback, they were already searching for something. Did we see any reaction from her to there being a second Hook? I'm not even going to pretend to expect that we got any kind of update from Zelena on what's been going on in Storybrooke.

After Gothel was summoned by Robyn and took her off, Zelena took a portal in a flashback to wherever Regina, Cinderella, Henry, and Hook were hanging out to harangue Regina over giving the book to Robyn and Gothel snatching her as a result.  WHook was watching all this go down.

Zelena, bizarrely, didn't seem to know anything about a second Hook despite being up to date on where Regina was and what she was doing.  But that was probably so they could name check Emma without actually elaborating on the events of Storybrooke and because they thought their nickname for him was clever.

Edited March 3, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The age and timeline shenanigans are so idiotic, I've cycled from being frustrated to apathetic to being really freaking pissed off. 

It's becoming a distraction. I seem to miss half of what's going on in an episode while I do math in my head and then try to reconcile the timeline based on the new info. I can see holding out the explanation, if there is one, if there's a plot reason, but dragging it out this long and making it so bizarre is now just throwing people out of the story, so it's outweighing whatever benefit there might have been in the surprise twist. I'm not sure there's anything they could do that would make us think that it explains everything, makes so much sense, and was a really good surprise that would have been ruined if they'd told us sooner.

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And she even name-dropped Emma.

OMG! Emma was mentioned at all? I'm kind of in shock here. I guess if it shows up on demand (DirecTV Now's on demand function is very iffy, and I haven't checked to see if that's one of the providers that will unlock new episodes on the ABC app) I'll have to rewatch at least up to that point (or maybe see if I can find the scene on YouTube). It's probably too much to ask that they told us the status of the baby. They're never going to give us that.

[ParadoxLost]

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's becoming a distraction. I seem to miss half of what's going on in an episode while I do math in my head and then try to reconcile the timeline based on the new info. I can see holding out the explanation, if there is one, if there's a plot reason, but dragging it out this long and making it so bizarre is now just throwing people out of the story, so it's outweighing whatever benefit there might have been in the surprise twist. I'm not sure there's anything they could do that would make us think that it explains everything, makes so much sense, and was a really good surprise that would have been ruined if they'd told us sooner.

OMG! Emma was mentioned at all? I'm kind of in shock here. I guess if it shows up on demand (DirecTV Now's on demand function is very iffy, and I haven't checked to see if that's one of the providers that will unlock new episodes on the ABC app) I'll have to rewatch at least up to that point (or maybe see if I can find the scene on YouTube). It's probably too much to ask that they told us the status of the baby. They're never going to give us that.

If I recall correctly, it was just a ' why aren't you not with Emma' that immediately cut off on realization there were two Hooks.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

Maybe because I am just as not into the show anymore, but as the dialogue always been this clunky?  Everything is so heavy-handed to say 

The livestream kept cutting out, so I may have missed something. But did Victoria really have to be so laughably cruel to her daughter Ivy? It was on-the-nose cringeworthy. 

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's becoming a distraction. I seem to miss half of what's going on in an episode while I do math in my head and then try to reconcile the timeline based on the new info. 

It's definitely taking me out of what minimal engagement I have with what's happening on-screen.

[hockeycat400]

What did Zelena call Gothel - Dirty Hippie Witch B!tch, or something like that?!

Between that and Nook...Zelena wins the night. 

[Senna]

The opening was cute and all, but maaaan is the timeline a headache.  I feel like the writers are just doubling down on how much they don't care about timelines.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but this is idiocy.  (I don't even care if they have an "explanation" at some point; it'll be surprising because I can't think of any way to reconcile it, but it's not going to relieve any of my annoyance.)

I do feel this episode was particularly clunky.  Like others have said, I'm not particularly feeling the "warmth" in the relationships the writers are obviously going for.  Almost everybody got on my nerves.  I'm basically counting down the episodes at this point ...

[cappoe]

Of course Zelena would be the one to bring up Captain Swan, that's her OTP right there.

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the episode aired almost 3 hrs ago and the majority of what people are talking about is Jen potentially coming back for the finale? God it just goes to show how S7 has been received and how vital Jen was to the show.

We all knew that of course. Emma Swan is the heart of OUAT and without it the show has died very quickly.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But did Victoria really have to be so laughably cruel to her daughter Ivy? It was on-the-nose cringeworthy. 

Her change of heart at the end to save Ivy was really out of nowhere. Ivy's revelation about the lanterns was not enough to change the relationship's dynamic. Although, now I think Ivy is interesting once more because she has no reason to be evil. If she could start her own "redemption" and work as some sort of gray character, she'll probably be more entertaining.

Quote

Of course Zelena would be the one to bring up Captain Swan, that's her OTP right there.

Zelena still rules. I love her so much.

Quote

I do feel this episode was particularly clunky.  Like others have said, I'm not particularly feeling the "warmth" in the relationships the writers are obviously going for.  Almost everybody got on my nerves.  I'm basically counting down the episodes at this point ...

I'm not surprised Victoria bit the dust this episode. There's just way too many characters for what the story is. Most of the hospital scenes were pointless, especially now that the test results are (presumably) being hidden. It's no big shocking reveal that Henry is Lucy's parent. We already know that. If Henry's already on the road to belief, that's just a continuation of that. It's not some huge turning point like this show is suggesting. I actually thought it would make some good drama though if Jacinda and Nick found out about it. (That would be so awkward.) 

Quote

We all knew that of course. Emma Swan is the heart of OUAT and without it the show has died very quickly.

Well, and the Charmings, by extension. I don't think it would be such a glaring issue if Henry, Jacinda, and Lucy made for better heroes.

Edited March 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[CCTC]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

If she could start her own "redemption" and work as some sort of gray character, she'll probably be more entertaining.

I thought she was at her most interesting the first few episodes they played her more when she befriended Henry and had those shades of gray (or at least pretended to not be pure evil).  It would be nice if they returned to that.  

[cappoe]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

Well, and the Charmings, by extension. I don't think it would be such a glaring issue if Henry, Jacinda, and Lucy made for better heroes.

Or Henry and Jacinda have even a smidge of chemistry.

[Camera One]

I didn't think this episode was that bad, per se.  It was mildly engaging.  Until you start thinking about it, because, then the plot holes open up like chasms.

This was mentioned above, but the biggest question is, why did Gothel bother to wake up Lucy.  It made zero sense, except A&E needed everything back to the status quo, so we could have Lucy playing matchmaker again while Henry and Jacinda continue to be oblivious.  Plus they had five too many villains, and needed to get rid of the worst one.  

Also mentioned above, it was obvious what emotional cues they wanted to hit, but the scenes couldn't be very affecting because we either don't really care about these people, or we have hardly seen them together.  Like Zelena sacrificing herself for The Brat, or Tremaine sacrificing herself for Ivy.  They could have explored Tremaine and Ivy trusting each other more, but they clearly lost interest in that and went for the "big" moment.  Though I still couldn't buy Tremaine's acting and awkward phrasing, so I doubt it would have worked.  

Speaking of which, it made zero sense that Tremaine would idiotically go and hand over the amulet to Gothel, thinking all will end well.  They escape from the well and she thought it was a good idea to go straight to Gothel?  After somehow knowing exactly where Regina and Zelena would be, and conveniently knowing exactly what Gothel was looking for?  Huh?  

And then Whook could find Gothel's exact location using a map?

It's not going to be easy to sell Robyn and Alice because the girl was such a brat.  I find it interesting that Zelena said she paid the bills.  Doesn't money just grow on trees in Storybrooke?  And how *does* she pay the bills, exactly?  Selling broomsticks?

All these years in Storybrooke, and the girl never once picked up a bow and arrow even though her father was Robin Hood?

I don't understand where the magic in the amulet that restored Zelena came from.  Robyn had *that* much magic stored within her?  

And if Zelena didn't have magic, how did she get that insta-portal that brought her to the Disenchanted Forest to confront Regina?  Another magic bean? If it was THAT easy to travel realms, why haven't Emma, Hook and Snowing been visiting?  

Without magic, how did Zelena expect to defeat Gothel?  

I don't buy that Cool Aunt Regina would be that stupid to give the magical book of magic addiction to a young impressionable girl with no guidance.

I loved how the caption said Tiana's Palace and Tiana is MIA the entire episode.

I can't believe they can get that actor who plays Nick to stick around, when he stands around doing and saying practically nothing. 

Though I'm guessing he is the gloved hand.  Why didn't the gloved hand just steal the results before the doctor saw them?  Or doctored them?  The gloved hand could also be an upcoming Big Villain! they will use after they're bored of Gothel.  This strategy is so soap-opera-ish it's embarrassing.

We finally got someone finding out their parent's crimes (when Gothel listed all of Tremaine's murders to Anastasia).  Why did we never get this with Henry and Regina?  But the result would probably have been similar... Anastasia already forgave her when she showed up with the amulet to save Lucy.

Mother Gothel is an idiot.  If she had used someone else to resurrect Madame Leota, her dumb plan would have succeeded.  But she had to use Robyn because?  What if Robyn hadn't tried to do that spell?  

I guess Weaver wove a clever tale to get Rogers on side to help him.  But at the end of the day, what was the point of finding the right greenhouse?  What was Rumple hoping to do?  He had no magic, so it's not like he could confront Gothel.  Ultimately, it was filler.

That exchange about Beyonce and whoever was such a pathetic attempt to appeal to new demographics for this show.

I think a Coven messed with all our electronics today.  I almost missed PVR-ing this episode because the PVR didn't turn on.  I realized at 8:01pm and luckily, I only missed that sneak peek in the vault, so I was able to turn on the recording.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think a Coven messed with all our electronics today.  I almost missed PVR-ing this episode because the PVR didn't turn on.  I realized at 8:01pm and luckily, I only missed that sneak peek in the vault, so I was able to turn on the recording.

That's so weird! I missed the entire WHook/Zelena scene at the palace and half of his exchange with Weaver. 

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I actually thought it would make some good drama though if Jacinda and Nick found out about it. (That would be so awkward.) 

Me too.  I would have been interested to see that.  But they writers went out of their way to ensure they'll be in the dark, so it'll be same old same old.  

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Zelena, bizarrely, didn't seem to know anything about a second Hook despite being up to date on where Regina was and what she was doing.  

It was weird.  Zelena hardly bat an eye when she saw Henry, Jacinda and the baby in the distance.  But as you said, she thought that was Original Hook.  So presumably, she never talks to Emma or Hook in Storybrooke?  Aren't they one big extended family at this point?  These inconsistencies make it virtually impossible to infer anything about what has happened in the past. 

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Was there a flashback scene before that in which we saw WHook starting to help Zelena?

As said above, yes there was.  They actually spent quite a bit of time building up Whook and Zelena to the point where he could later give her an inspirational speech from one parent to another.  They got more solo scenes together in one episode than Snow and Emma got from Season 4-6.

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm not usually one to dwell on the Robin/Zelena or Graham/Regina consent issues.  But I was unnerved several times when people were bringing up Gothel around WHook.

They had Gothel make another joke implying Whook always showing up could give a girl the wrong idea or something to that effect.  These writers are seriously tone deaf.

4 hours ago, CCTC said:

A good part of this is my fault, because I have missed a number of episodes this year - because I am just not that invested in the Victoria/Drizella  Zelina/Robin relationships to really care about the big emotional moments they had in the show.   Although part of it is I feel the show tells you when you are supposed to feel emotional rather than build up to it.  They tell us Zelina and Regina are great sisters, but they never really saw the relationship build.  We have not seen Zelina and Robin enough together to really care about them.  Victoria and Druzilla have shown no signs of caring for one another until they needed to for the big moment (although that is something I might have missed in earlier episodes I have not seen.  I might have felt more about the family scene of Lucy waking up if they actually showed some chemistry or more family bonding prior to Lucy collapsing (again that might be because I missed some episodes).

I have watched every episode this season, and you definitely didn't miss much.  We didn't see any of those relationships build.  

I felt absolutely nothing when Lucy woke up.  I hope it doesn't mean I have darkness in my heart.

[Camera One]

Here are a few quotes to laugh over from A&E about this episode (EW post-episode interview):

Quote

“The show is about how evil is made, it’s not born,” executive producer Edward Kitsis says of Victoria’s death. “We see that Gabrielle originally was trapped in the tower and became this villain, and yet in this moment what we wanted to do is [show that] the relationship between Ivy and her was a tough mother-daughter relationship, but when it really came down to it, she wasn’t willing to sacrifice it. At the end of the day, she was able to reclaim who she was. That’s always been a message on the show, which is, this is not a show where we expect you to be perfect, this is a show where we all say, ‘Everyday we make mistakes, but it’s how you come back from them,’ so we felt like that was a fitting ending.”

Uh, there's a difference between not being "perfect" and murdering multiple people.   That's all she has to do to "reclaim" who she was?

Quote

 “We love the idea of the relationship between a mother and daughter, where from the audience’s perspective, we think for the first half of the season, you really feel that Gabrielle is the villain of the year and this terrible person,” executive producer Adam Horowitz says. “Hopefully we pulled the layers back enough to make you understand her a little more, and just as you do, the focus is going to shift.”

Other than understanding she's a psycho who only cares about the people she considers "family", there isn't really much to the "layers".

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Worsel]

8 hours ago, hockeycat400 said:

What did Zelena call Gothel - Dirty Hippie Witch B!tch, or something like that?!

Between that and Nook...Zelena wins the night. 

That was my favorite line of dialog in the entire show!  Zelena's put downs are the best.

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's not going to be easy to sell Robyn and Alice because the girl was such a brat.  I find it interesting that Zelena said she paid the bills.  Doesn't money just grow on trees in Storybrooke?  And how *does* she pay the bills, exactly?  Selling broomsticks?

I don't understand where the magic in the amulet that restored Zelena came from.  Robyn had *that* much magic stored within her?  

And if Zelena didn't have magic, how did she get that insta-portal that brought her to the Disenchanted Forest to confront Regina?  Another magic bean? If it was THAT easy to travel realms, why haven't Emma, Hook and Snowing been visiting?  

Without magic, how did Zelena expect to defeat Gothel?  

Mother Gothel is an idiot.  If she had used someone else to resurrect Madame Leota, her dumb plan would have succeeded.  But she had to use Robyn because?  What if Robyn hadn't tried to do that spell?  

Maybe Zelena has gone back to her original job of nanny for pregnant women?

I assume Robyn did have a lot of magic, perhaps inherited from Zelena.  Perhaps this means Robyn has no more magic now.

Agree that Zelena shouldn't have been able to open a portal without magic, this bothered me too.  Maybe the fairies helped her?  And also agree if it was that easy others would have been visiting from Storybrooke.

I think Zelena expected love to defeat Gothel, supposedly love is the most powerful magic (except when it isn't, for plot reasons...)

Maybe Gothel recognized Robyn had more magic than usual/more powerful and was the best candidate?  

[Rumsy4]

I finally watched the episode fully.

On 3/1/2018 at 9:20 PM, Rumsy4 said:

I find WHook and Alice the most interesting characters this season. ...

I'm pinning half my remaining hopes for the season on Zelena. 

My faith in WHook and Zelena was so justified! Those two had all the genuine emotional beats of the episode. Whook was great as usual, and I bought Zelena as a mother (even if Robyn was a brat). Their bickering interactions were more interesting than the sudden bond between Zelena and Regina. I loved him giving piratey parental advice to Zelena, one single parent to another. His antics in trying to find Memento Mori were hilarious! At least Colin's having fun with the role. He has a much better and more interesting storyline than he did in S6. Next week's promo looks promising for WHook as well. 

Weaver/Carlyle has nothing to do. Any generic actor could've played Weaver. 

While I bought Zelena's willingness to sacrifice for Robyn, I just didn't feel a thing when Victoria sacrificed herself for Ivy. So, just because the lantern thing was Ivy's idea, suddenly everything is forgiven?? She treated her daughter like shit for years. There's just no excuse for it. 

I only felt mild annoyance at Lucy being back. It makes no sense that Mop Head was willing to save Lucy over resurrecting Leota or whatever. And Gothel is revolting in her interactions with WHook/Rogers. The writers seem to enjoy giving her rapey in-jokes almost as much as Regina's infamous "snark". 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Zelena, bizarrely, didn't seem to know anything about a second Hook despite being up to date on where Regina was and what she was doing. 

I can actually buy that. Regina's so self-centered that she probably only talks about herself and Henry when magically Skyping with her sister. After all, why would Zelena care that there's a double of a guy she doesn't care about? And I guess Emma and Hook didn't bother telling anyone that there was another Hook out there running around with Henry and Regina.

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

But did Victoria really have to be so laughably cruel to her daughter Ivy? It was on-the-nose cringeworthy. 

That whole thing has never made much sense. Drizella was 4 when Rapunzel was locked in the tower, and then Rapunzel was gone for 6 years. Did she really expect that small a child to retain enough memories that she'd instantly recognize her mother upon her return and run to her? Has she really been holding a grudge against a child for that long when she didn't even bother greeting that child when she returned? She never gave Drizella a reason to have a relationship with her. But then she feels guilt when she learns that Drizella lit the lanterns? I'm sure it was all supposed to be emotional and heartwarming, but Victoria was just plain warped. And what's the deal with these writers consistently having adults starting vendettas over things 10-year-olds did?

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

We finally got someone finding out their parent's crimes (when Gothel listed all of Tremaine's murders to Anastasia).  Why did we never get this with Henry and Regina? 

I thought he did know all the things Regina did because they were in the book. Oh, but he later decided the book was wrong about her.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

That exchange about Beyonce and whoever was such a pathetic attempt to appeal to new demographics for this show.

It was especially amusing given that it's at least 16 years into our future. Will Beyonce even still be all that relevant to a teenager? She'd be considered old by then. Depending on what kind of life her daughter has, Beyonce could possibly be a grandmother at that point.

Ooh, I know a solution to this particular timeline wrinkle with Robyn: Zelena got impatient with the terrible twos and sent Robyn off to camp or boarding school in some other realm where time moves faster, so she went straight from toddler to teenager, when she would presumably be easier to deal with. But that meant their relationship was rather strained because Robyn didn't actually grow up around her mother. So it's really only been a few years in Storybrooke.

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I missed the entire WHook/Zelena scene at the palace and half of his exchange with Weaver. 

This is really weird because that's exactly the part I missed when my power went out.

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Uh, there's a difference between being "perfect" and murdering multiple people. 

And then there's also the extreme emotional abuse of a child while favoring another child. There's an imperfect parent, and then there's "only one of my daughters means anything to me, and it's not you."

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Zelena, bizarrely, didn't seem to know anything about a second Hook despite being up to date on where Regina was and what she was doing. 

I can actually buy that. Regina's so self-centered that she probably only talks about herself and Henry when magically Skyping with her sister. After all, why would Zelena care that there's a double of a guy she doesn't care about? And I guess Emma and Hook didn't bother telling anyone that there was another Hook out there running around with Henry and Regina.

I rewatched the scene today, and I did not get the impression that Zelena was unaware of WHook. She probably never thought about Hook's double after she'd heard of him years ago from Emma (2-10 years give or take a few). So, when she saw him, she was confused for a moment. Then, she remembered--nobody had to explain who he was. Her line was (paraphrasing): "Oh, right. There's two of you now." It was more of an audience-reminder, but I can buy that Zelena would have forgotten about WHook. 

So, did "cool" aunt Regina give Cora's book to Robyn when the latter was 5 years old? How long has any of it been? Jeez. And really? Experimenting? Are they talking about spells or sex? 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Rumsy4

[daxx]

I am now certain there is some timeline wonkiness. My guess is that all the flashbacks are in the future and Hyperion Heights the past. I think the curse threw them back in time as well as sending them to the LWM. This would also explain why Regina was so certain they couldn’t enlist help from Storybrooke. Adam has been adamant that Henry was of age when he left on the motorcycle which would be after the present time I don’t have any dates from the pilot handy but he’d be 18 around 2019? I think? If the date for the premiere matched the air date.

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, daxx said:

I am now certain there is some timeline wonkiness. My guess is that all the flashbacks are in the future and Hyperion Heights the past. I think the curse threw them back in time as well as sending them to the LWM. This would also explain why Regina was so certain they couldn’t enlist help from Storybrooke. Adam has been adamant that Henry was of age when he left on the motorcycle which would be after the present time I don’t have any dates from the pilot handy but he’d be 18 around 2019? I think? If the date for the premiere matched the air date.

It does feel like S6 SB has to be close to the S7 HH timeline.  Flashbacks could be flash forwards to multiple different points.  The problem is that even this starts falling apart when they make current pop culture references to Blue Ivy,Jay-Z and Beyoncé in the flashbacks.  I guess that could be explained in a scenario where Blue Ivy is actively trying to launch a singing career in the future

Edited March 3, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

28 minutes ago, daxx said:

I am now certain there is some timeline wonkiness. My guess is that all the flashbacks are in the future and Hyperion Heights the past. I think the curse threw them back in time as well as sending them to the LWM.

I think that's been clear for a long time, since HH is in our present, but even the start of season 7 had to be in our future for Henry to be over 18. But even if you remove the Hyperion Heights part of the story and just look at the timeline going forward from the end of season 6, it doesn't make a lot of sense and is hard to match up. If Robyn is 18 at the time Lucy is born, then either Henry and Ella were together for years before they had Lucy or Hook and Emma were married for at least 15 years and were in their late 40s before Emma got pregnant. Alice is an adult in the present and was born when Ella was a teenager, so is Ella in her 40s now? WHook was 28 years older (physically) than Hook Prime, but as of the time the HH curse is cast, it seems to have been about 26 years since Emma met WHook in the Wishverse, but WHook hasn't aged back to where he was. Nobody has changed. The adult children don't look much younger than their parents, and we're halfway through the season without any explanation why. If they're just not wanting to make them look old here and we're supposed to assume they're just aging well, then why did they bother with old-age makeup in the Wishverse for WHook and the WCharmings?

So, while the flashbacks are probably flash-forwards from an objective time scale, they're flashbacks from the perspective of the characters, since all those events had to happen before they came to Hyperion Heights. The different stories don't sync up well and all seem to be on their own timeline, even though many of them happen in the same place or in intersecting timelines. There's the Hook/Emma timeline, the Henry timeline, the Alice timeline, the Robyn timeline, the Zelena timeline, the Ella timeline, the Rumple timeline, etc. Each one makes some sense on its own, but if you try to fit them together, it all explodes.

[Rumsy4]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

If they're just not wanting to make them look old here and we're supposed to assume they're just aging well, then why did they bother with old-age makeup in the Wishverse for WHook and the WCharmings?

Because they were for one-off episodes. They didn't want to put ageing makeup on Colin, Lana, Bex, etc., for the whole season. Nobody's asking them to spell out the ages of the charatcers. But this is ridiculous, and takes one out of the narrative. The writers wanted to make it easy for themselves, and compromised on quality and logic.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I don’t know if it was the hiatus, but I had a hard time following the episode. I had no interest in Gothel. At this point I’m watching for Henry, Regina, fake Hook and Rumple and to see how the story ends. 

The most interesting scene was Robyn and her friends practicing magic in Storybrooke. I wanted to know who the other girls were related to. Also, who was the person in the statue outside of the mausoleum? Either I missed something or blocked it out of my memory. 

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

My faith in WHook and Zelena was so justified! Those two had all the genuine emotional beats of the episode. Whook was great as usual, and I bought Zelena as a mother (even if Robyn was a brat).

The interesting thing is, Colin is pretty much the only actor they are able to write decent material for, consistently.  Why Whook was helping Zelena actually made sense.  the whole "love can conquer all" thing was a bit of a stretch (something Snow would say), but it still worked given what we know about Whook and Alice.

Quote

Zelena's willingness to sacrifice for Robyn, I just didn't feel a thing when Victoria sacrificed herself for Ivy. So, just because the lantern thing was Ivy's idea, suddenly everything is forgiven?? 

The whole lantern thing is very hard to believe.  Are we supposed to believe that The Pure and Guardian Anastasia never once gave Drizella credit for coming up with the idea?  Nor Marcus?  Nor Drizella herself?  It was a cheap way to manipulate the audience into feeling for Tremaine so they could speed up dumping her.  I find it funny that A&E expected anyone to remember the lantern episode.  The casual viewer definitely wouldn't, nor the people who parachuted into this episode after skipping half of 7A.

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That whole thing has never made much sense. Drizella was 4 when Rapunzel was locked in the tower, and then Rapunzel was gone for 6 years. Did she really expect that small a child to retain enough memories that she'd instantly recognize her mother upon her return and run to her? Has she really been holding a grudge against a child for that long when she didn't even bother greeting that child when she returned? She never gave Drizella a reason to have a relationship with her. But then she feels guilt when she learns that Drizella lit the lanterns? I'm sure it was all supposed to be emotional and heartwarming, but Victoria was just plain warped. And what's the deal with these writers consistently having adults starting vendettas over things 10-year-olds did?

And A&E are expecting us to buy that Lady Tremaine was Rapunzel deep within and in death, she returned to how she was.  But the fact that Trepunzel held that grudge at a child means that she never was Rapunzel-like at all.  They claim Rapunzel was all about family but that doesn't match with only loving one of her daughters.  We didn't see enough of the Tremaine/Younger Drizella dynamic for this emotional arc to be believable in any way.  

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I rewatched the scene today, and I did not get the impression that Zelena was unaware of WHook. She probably never thought about Hook's double after she'd heard of him years ago from Emma (2-10 years give or take a few). So, when she saw him, she was confused for a moment. Then, she remembered--nobody had to explain who he was. Her line was (paraphrasing): "Oh, right. There's two of you now." It was more of an audience-reminder, but I can buy that Zelena would have forgotten about WHook. 

Yeah, I re-read the lines and I agree Zelena did know about Whook.  Though I do think Zelena's mind would work fast enough that she would have realized it a second later after an initial surprise of seeing another Hook, and she would have realized it BEFORE she uttered that entire line.  It was definitely for audience-reminder, though I did like the mention of Emma, so I guess I don't mind it in hindsight but it still took me out of it.

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think that's been clear for a long time, since HH is in our present, but even the start of season 7 had to be in our future for Henry to be over 18. But even if you remove the Hyperion Heights part of the story and just look at the timeline going forward from the end of season 6, it doesn't make a lot of sense and is hard to match up. If Robyn is 18 at the time Lucy is born, then either Henry and Ella were together for years before they had Lucy or Hook and Emma were married for at least 15 years and were in their late 40s before Emma got pregnant. Alice is an adult in the present and was born when Ella was a teenager, so is Ella in her 40s now? WHook was 28 years older (physically) than Hook Prime, but as of the time the HH curse is cast, it seems to have been about 26 years since Emma met WHook in the Wishverse, but WHook hasn't aged back to where he was. Nobody has changed. The adult children don't look much younger than their parents, and we're halfway through the season without any explanation why. If they're just not wanting to make them look old here and we're supposed to assume they're just aging well, then why did they bother with old-age makeup in the Wishverse for WHook and the WCharmings?

This is giving me a headache to think about.  Anyone willing to make some parallel annotated timeline for us?  ;)

42 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

The most interesting scene was Robyn and her friends practicing magic in Storybrooke. I wanted to know who the other girls were related to. Also, who was the person in the statue outside of the mausoleum? Either I missed something or blocked it out of my memory. 

It's saying something that what was happening in Storybrooke was more interesting than the entire rest of the episode.

[KingOfHearts]

You've seen Wicked vs. Evil, now get ready for... Coat Hangers vs. Black Gloves. Who will win?

Edited March 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[CCTC]

18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I find it funny that A&E expected anyone to remember the lantern episode. 

Yes - that must have been one of the episodes I missed, because I did not really know what they were talking about.

The show really does seem to think one good act, no matter how minor, will wipe out and excuse any bad behavior - no matter how evil and egregious.

[Camera One]

We already got the beginnings of the Gothel sob story in this episode... she found out her powers early and some people tried to exploit it, until someone taught her.  Now I wonder who that would be.  

I thought Madame Leota was quite amusing especially when she told Robyn that her role was to die.  Oops, were we not supposed to cheer her on when she said that?

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

They didn't want to put ageing makeup on Colin, Lana, Bex, etc., for the whole season.

That makes some sense from a practical standpoint, but the problem is that they've set so many other precedents that make this even more confusing. They've established that the characters do age, and we know how an older Hook looks, so it's weird and confusing when that much time passes again and he doesn't look any different. Meanwhile, it's previously been a plot point that there are characters who are the same age as their parents because of time passing (or not passing at all) differently. So when we have characters not aging and looking the same age as their children, we have to wonder if it means anything. We can't just assume they didn't want to do aging makeup for the whole season. I'm sure the timeline wonkiness with HH being in the past is going to be a plot point, but is the aging also going to be explained? It would take maybe one line, and then we could relax. Regina and Zelena reuniting and commenting that the anti-aging potion Regina created is still working wonders for them, WHook commenting that when he had Lady Tremaine make him the age of Hook Prime, he didn't realize it was going to freeze him at that age forever. Though that still doesn't fix the question of how old Hook Prime and Emma were when Emma was pregnant, and it's hard to reconcile the timeline in a way that doesn't make them in their 40s.

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The interesting thing is, Colin is pretty much the only actor they are able to write decent material for, consistently.  Why Whook was helping Zelena actually made sense.  the whole "love can conquer all" thing was a bit of a stretch (something Snow would say), but it still worked given what we know about Whook and Alice.

I've joked about the "writing elves" that sneak into the writers' computers at night and rewrite the scripts to make Hook's part better. Then again, Jane tweeted a photo yesterday of the champagne Colin had delivered to the writers' room for their last day of working on the script, so maybe that explains it. He's been buying them booze all this time, so either they're drunk when they write about him and that strangely makes them better, or he's bribed them into good writing.

53 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But the fact that Trepunzel held that grudge at a child means that she never was Rapunzel-like at all.  They claim Rapunzel was all about family but that doesn't match with only loving one of her daughters.  We didn't see enough of the Tremaine/Younger Drizella dynamic for this emotional arc to be believable in any way.  

And what we did see was awful. We saw Rapunzel running to her one daughter and totally ignoring the other, and the camera zoomed in on Drizella's face, showing her pain at being ignored, so it seems to have been intentional (unless the director was trying to add some drama to the scene that wasn't written or intended). Rapunzel totally ignored her daughter, then blamed her daughter when they didn't have a relationship, then became actively spiteful to Drizella while talking about how wonderful Anastasia was -- and blamed Drizella for being a terrible daughter. Then she learns that this child she'd ignored was the one signaling her, and it's like "oops, my bad, nobody's perfect! Now I guess I'd better sacrifice myself."

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Anyone willing to make some parallel annotated timeline for us?  ;)

I'm not sure that's possible without some kind of dimensional warp. How would you depict Alice being present at an event that happened before she was born? This show is making the complicated timelines that were created to show River Song's life on Doctor Who look simple and straightforward. At least on that show, time travel was a constant and they meant for it to be all twisted up like that. That was the entire point of River. On this show, I think it's mostly just sloppy. They write what they need for a particular episode without thinking about how that fits into the rest of the story.

[Rumsy4]

44 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

You've seen Wicked vs. Evil, now get ready for... Coat Hangers vs. Black Gloves. Who will win?

The Battle of the Props. What's the betting?

[Camera One]

So Lucy fell into a deep sleep when her tear revived Anastasia, who was also in a deep sleep.  But to wake Lucy, Victoria has to die?  Shouldn't she also fall into a deep sleep?  What am I missing here?  This really is a great way for the entire cast to take turns sleeping, which is something of a specialty with these Writers.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

36 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The Battle of the Props. What's the betting?

Well this week, the Resurrection Amulet made some gains, but the victory was bittersweet as things turned in favor of the Coat Hangers. However, the Enchanted Arrow came out of left field and flanked the Coat Hangers, which heated things up. The Black Gloves seemed to have the last laugh though, with that touchdown at the end no one saw coming.

Quote

So Lucy fell into a deep sleep when her tear revived Anastasia, who was also in a deep sleep.  But to wake Lucy, Victoria has to die?  Shouldn't she also fall into a deep sleep?  What am I missing here?  This really is a great way for the entire cast to take turns sleeping, which is something of a specialty with these Writers.

The circumstances surrounding Lucy were just confusing. Let's recap. Lucy fell asleep because she lost her "belief", which somehow awoke Anastasia. Then Gothel was going to use the Resurrection Amulet to awake Lucy at the expense of Ivy's life, but Victoria swooped in to pay the price herself. So somehow Gothel was able to connect the ritual with Lucy.

Side question - how the hell did Rumple or Regina not know about the Resurrection Amulet until this episode? Bringing someone back from the dead was meant to be taboo. I understand the writers were able to cheese it with Zelena's lifeforce being in the pendant, or Charming's soul not leaving his body, or whatever. But an amulet that can resurrect on demand? The caveats don't justify how contrived it is.

Edited March 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

40 minutes ago, Camera One said:

So Lucy fell into a deep sleep when her tear revived Anastasia, who was also in a deep sleep.  But to wake Lucy, Victoria has to die?  Shouldn't she also fall into a deep sleep?  What am I missing here?

I was scratching my head about the thin rationale for doing DNA testing on Lucy's parents. They didn't know what was wrong with her, so why did they need to get a match for organ donors? Did I miss a line about her kidneys failing? And why even bother with that subplot? We already know Henry is Lucy's father. We assume that any villain who's awake already knows. They killed the doctor who saw the test results, so it's not like they were going to be revealed to the characters. I guess this was to let us know that there's a villain? Are we surprised?

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was scratching my head about the thin rationale for doing DNA testing on Lucy's parents. They didn't know what was wrong with her, so why did they need to get a match for organ donors? Did I miss a line about her kidneys failing? And why even bother with that subplot? We already know Henry is Lucy's father. We assume that any villain who's awake already knows. They killed the doctor who saw the test results, so it's not like they were going to be revealed to the characters. I guess this was to let us know that there's a villain? Are we surprised?

If this happened earlier in the season when we weren't 100% sure Nick wasn't the father, it would have made more sense.

I'm getting pretty tired of Memoryless!WHook. His scenes are comprised of doing something earnestly stupid, Weaver shaking his head, and WHook realizing he was wrong. Wouldn't it be more interesting if he was awake but Alice wasn't? There's just no point in him going on this goose chase about Gothel. I'm surprised he didn't check for any wounds or whatever on Victoria. How did he assume the "cult" killed her?

Edited March 3, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

21 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm getting pretty tired of Memoryless!WHook. His scenes are comprised of doing something earnestly stupid,...Wouldn't it be more interesting if he was awake but Alice wasn't?

These writers prefer to keep WHook stupidly unaware so Gothel can make rape jokes and Weaver can act patiently superior. The payoff for the WHook-Alice resolution is going to be miscule at this rate. And why is WHook reporting to Weaver that he fed Tilly sandwiches per the latter's request? At least they should have explained why Rumple/Weaver was taking such an interest in her in both the flashbacks and the present day. We're supposed to take all the interpersonal relationships on trust this season.

It's time everyone got their memories back. It's so boring that Henrilla, Tiana, and WHook (and sometimes Alice) are the only charatcers who have zero idea of their identities.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's so boring that Henrilla, Tiana, and WHook (and sometimes Alice) are the only charatcers who have zero idea of their identities.

It's annoying that Alice is hardly there at all. She's one of the few characters who's actually really fun.

[Camera One]

49 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was scratching my head about the thin rationale for doing DNA testing on Lucy's parents. 

I was thinking that when watching the episode too.  It made zero sense, so it was just another contrived way to get the doctor murdered (because that makes the show so dark and edgy).  Or maybe they were trying to squeeze in that joke the doctor made at the vending machine how sugary drinks can "kill her". 

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's time everyone got their memories back. It's so boring that Henrilla, Tiana, and WHook (and sometimes Alice) are the only charatcers who have zero idea of their identities.

 

They were bending over backwards to create a scenario where Memoryless Rogers would continue to help Weaver, what with the whole cult/sacrifice setup.  But I think the ship has sailed and the show would be just as boring if everyone had their memory back.  In the flashback, everyone remembered what was happening and half of them were either MIA or sitting far, far in the background cooing over the baby.

I was thinking that Rogers finding out that Eloise was shady would have made such a bigger difference if Rogers and Eloise had more than 1 scene in 7A (the one where she gave him the cake).  

58 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Side question - how the hell did Rumple or Regina not know about the Resurrection Amulet until this episode? Bringing someone back from the dead was meant to be taboo. 

 

And Gothel knew all along she needed it, but she took no steps to using Drizella to try to find it.  And somehow, it conveniently came over in the Curse and was in the center of a sign that hung over the door.  And Gothel decided to use it to revive Lucy.  It's like a long chain of plot points that is predicated on coincidence and convenience.

The show tried to "explain" it by saying the amulet only resurrected people who haven't "surrendered" to the other side yet.  So what does that mean in terms of Underbrooke?  They were halfway there?

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Could Rumple have volunteered to die this episode?  We have The Guardian and an amulet and he could have reunited with Belle.  Don't let the door (or the 5 points of the star on the floor) hit you on the way out.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I wonder how many of the new characters they could have fit into the circle at one time?