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S07.E11: Secret Garden


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17 minutes ago, CCTC said:

When they had her wear the hair extensions, I was thinking, you know we the viewers would have been are smart enough to figure out who she is without making her wear bad extensions and the same red jacket.  People do change their looks over time, or at least get new clothes...  Having her with her shorter hair would have been a good way to show time had passed.

Yeah, that was just silly. It made some sense back when we were assuming that there was a time passing differently thing going on, so Henry had grown up where he was, but it was still the same year in Storybrooke. But then it started looking more and more like years had passed, and now it may even have been more than 15 years, so why couldn't Emma's hair have changed? I know a lot of women with long hair who got their hair cut after they got married. Wasn't the whole thing with the red leather jacket that it was her armor, and her whole character arc was about her letting down her WALLS and not needing the armor anymore? So why is she still wearing the same jacket 15 or more years later? Why is Zelena wearing the same clothes?

And if it was more than 10 years between the time Henry left Storybrooke and the time he met Cinderella, how the hell is his motorcycle still running with no access to fuel, and how did he have a cell phone that still had power?

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1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

It makes no sense why she would actually bring Lucy back to life instead of that glass ball lady.

It has to be something like she needs a willing sacrifice of someone with XYZ characteristics that only Lucy fulfills.

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If Rumple had revealed that he was awake to Regina, maybe they could have worked together and shared information, but it's really unclear what Rumple was even trying to achieve in this episode.  If he wanted Anastasia back, why not just tail Gothel?  

I still don't get how Victoria knew to go to the pub and demand the resurrection amulet be handed over.  If Zelena hadn't been able to find it, then what?  

The amount of coincidence in this episode was through the roof.  

For such an important object as the resurrection amulet, we don't know much about how it worked.  If Robyn hadn't randomly done that spell at that very moment, who would Gothel have sed to resurrect Madame Leota?   Did the sacrifice have to be someone with magic?  But Victoria did not have innate magic.  

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The Once Facebook page asked what people thought of the "emotional" moment of Victoria's sacrifice. Most of the responses were along the lines of:

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It was typical "you're supposed to say OMG about this total 180 at a seemingly inopportune time"

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2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The Once Facebook page asked what people thought of the "emotional" moment of Victoria's sacrifice. Most of the responses were along the lines of:

Quote

It was typical "you're supposed to say OMG about this total 180 at a seemingly inopportune time"

 

Not the response they were looking for I bet.  LOL

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(edited)
32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Does anyone have a deep interpretation of the episode title "Secret Garden" and how it relates to this episode in any way?

You mean it wasn't an adaptation of the book entitled The Secret Garden?! Next you'll tell me Garden of the Forking Paths wasn't an adaptation either!

Edited by KingOfHearts
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2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

You mean it wasn't an adaptation of the book entitled The Secret Garden?! 

I seriously considered re-reading "The Secret Garden" before I watched this episode. Thank goodness I didn't!

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(edited)

I finally figured it out.  The Tower is the psychological enclave that Victoria trapped herself in after the death of Anastasia.  Even though she was physically out of the Tower, she resisted the love of Drizella and maintained her isolation.  In this episode, Victoria finally ventured out into the secret garden and found the love that she sought all along.  

In many ways, Gothel was not a villain in this episode - her actions resulted in the rekindling of love between mother and daughter.  By trapping them in a well, which was a reverse Tower, she forced the two women to not look at each other from pedestals but from the same level.  We can now see why Gothel is called "Mother"; she may be hard on the outside, but deep down, she is a mother who brings mothers and daughters together.  Another example would be Zelena and Robyn.  Would they have reconciled if she hadn't taught them the tough lessons?  No.  Another word for Mother is Guardian, and clearly, Mother Gothel will need to learn that deep within her IS the Guardian, the Guardian of us all, the Guardian of the Galaxy.  Hopefully, you will all find the Mother Gothel in your lives.

Edited by Camera One
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21 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I guess it gives Regina and Zelena something to do with their sisterly bonding. Honestly, those two running a bar would be more interesting than whatever S7 has been so far.

It would actually make a great show..the Blister Sisters running a bar..except they still have to get on each other's nerves, they aren't as much fun when they like each other.

Is Regina just a big old grumpy sourpuss now that Zelena stole all her "snark"? It was probably  stolen with some dumb amulet that the Curse would conveniently put in a sign that everyone would look at each time they came in.  I have always liked Parrilla but she takes all this material too seriously, Mader just "gets" how to act on this show, she almost breaks the third wall with her sneers and her snark as if she is along with the audience on how stupid everything is.

Zelena did acknowlege that she knew there was another Hook, she just said, "Did'nt I just see you and Emma sherifing together?" and then was like, "Oh yea, there's another one." She probably didn't expect him to look just like Hook as Cinderella doesnt look like Ashley.

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I enjoy Zelena more now that she is not just ranting or whining. She still has a bite and a touch of bitterness that makes her Zelena, but it's clear that she's more mature now. Regina's super-positivity this season feels odd compared to her tolerant eye-rolling of Mary Margaret's optimism all this time. She was offering comfort to WHook, while she was always so derisive of Hook. And she goes around making hope speeches. I need to see when that changed and why. Regina and Rumple are the most different from their former selves this season, and it doesn't feel authentic because we never saw them at transition points. 

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Finally got to watch the episode, and it was...basically what I expected. Not awful, with some decent acting and a few ok moments, but mostly it was a big heaping pile of meh. Victoria sacrificing herself for Ivy after years of abuse and neglect? Meh. Murderella and Henry with Lucy? Meh. Th flashbacks with Zelena and Robin? Meh. Not aggressively awful like this show gets sometimes, but nothing very interesting either. 

Mostly, it just filled me with questions. As everyone else has already asked, why is it the kids age, but the parents stay the same? There isn't a curse in Storeybrooke anymore, so why did Robin age, while Zelena looks the same? Is adding some grey to the actors just SUCH a massive pain? Where did this whole Guardian thing go? Is that still a thing? Why was it so important for Gothel to kill Robin, and not any other random magic or normal person? They seem to be freaking everywhere. If its so easy to go from one world to the next, why dont they visit Storeybrooke, or vice versa? Who says things like "you will find happiness again" or stuff like that? It worked ok when they were in a fairy tale, but now, it just sounds stupid, especially when the characters mostly talk like modern people, even in the flashbacks, who talks like that? And Victoria actually makes an awesome point, why is it ignored? Why is Victoria a monster, but Regina (who has done MUCH worse) such a good guy? Why is she constantly forgiven instantly, while other characters are not? Huh? Thats probably the most I've liked Victoria in the whole season. Give me five minutes, I will 100% think of more.

This also raised another question for me, that has been bothering me for awhile now. How does magic actually work in this universe? Are there just one kind, or several? Is it genetic? It seems genetic sometimes, but if it is, should Henry have magic too (not counting his stupid Author thing that is never brought up)? How does Victoria have magic (I really dont remember) and why does she have it? Is it family? A deal? An artifact? How common is it? At first it seemed like most magic was either fairy magic or based around dark deals with dark creatures or artifacts, but now its some kind of genetic based Harry Potter thing? Sometimes? Was Emma magic because she was the Savior, or just because? If so, how is Savior magic than Regina's magic? Or Cora's? Or anyone's? Do you just point your hands and look constipated, or do you actually have to learn spells and do work like Robins babysitters coven was doing? Do guys beyond Rumple do magic, we mostly seem to see women. Can anyone do magic, if they have the right stuff? How common is magic in any of these worlds? Because sometimes it seems rare, and sometimes its not? And, again, why do some people have magic, and some people dont? Look, I dont need a genetics class or anything, I just want SOME kind of explanation, now that its apparently going to be a freaking thing, with the Coat hangers showing up. 

Robin talking about her dad with Zelena made me feel gross. Does the poor kid even know what her mom did to her dad? This show is amazing at blundering into really freaking awkward and nasty situations. 

I actually thought some of the Madam Leona stuff was kind of fun, mainly with the quotes and references to the haunted mansion ride. But, mostly, I dont get why she is even here, or how this fits into anything. As always. 

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2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I actually thought some of the Madam Leona stuff was kind of fun, mainly with the quotes and references to the haunted mansion ride. But, mostly, I dont get why she is even here, or how this fits into anything. As always. 

At some point they felt they needed to shoe horn in Disney references as much as possible.  

One thing I liked about the show when it first started they really did do different takes on the characters and were more based on the fairy tale origins than the Disney versions.  Snow, Hook, Pan,, the dwarves, and even Regina were all different than their Disney counterparts.  They even had some characters, Red - Granny - Rumple that were known more from their original sources than a Disney version.  As good of a job as they did with the Frozen casting, it was after that point where they seemed to be a lot more tied to the Disney version for any new characters (although I guess not really for this version of Tangled).   Just look at Maleficent - season 1 she had a different look - season 4 she looked like the Disney cartoon .

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I rewatched the scene in 7x10 where Regina meets with Zelena/Robyn and talks about the Coat Hangers. Zelena mentioned she was invited to the coven, but oddly enough, there wasn't anything about Robyn being invited. Robyn have didn't much of a reaction, other than of concern for Alice.

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37 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I rewatched the scene in 7x10 where Regina meets with Zelena/Robyn and talks about the Coat Hangers. Zelena mentioned she was invited to the coven, but oddly enough, there wasn't anything about Robyn being invited. Robyn have didn't much of a reaction, other than of concern for Alice.

Yet another plot point the writers hadn't thought through until they got to the episode centric of the character. 

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4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I rewatched the scene in 7x10 where Regina meets with Zelena/Robyn and talks about the Coat Hangers. Zelena mentioned she was invited to the coven, but oddly enough, there wasn't anything about Robyn being invited. Robyn have didn't much of a reaction, other than of concern for Alice.

And now that we know how Zelena crashed and ruined Gothel's attempted resurrection of Madame Leota, why WOULD Zelena be getting an invite to the Coven?  As usual, it looks like they forgot to bother rewatching the previous episode when writing this new one.

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1 hour ago, Camera One said:

And now that we know how Zelena crashed and ruined Gothel's attempted resurrection of Madame Leota, why WOULD Zelena be getting an invite to the Coven?  As usual, it looks like they forgot to bother rewatching the previous episode when writing this new one.

Gothel's weird. She still wanted to work with Rapunzel after she betrayed her repeatedly. 

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Victoria's death would've had so much more impact or any at all had she been a better written and developed character to begin with and had her sudden love for Ivy had been brought about a lot earlier than here. Because of that, it's a damp squib.

Why was Gothel so keen to wake Lucy up I wonder? They're already setting up the sympathetic backstory I'd rather she didn't have.

I liked the Zelena and Hook team up in flashbacks to save Robin, who started off annoying in the episode but got less annoying as it went on.

Now we've got a serial killer plot to contend with? 7/10

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I think you are all on to something with this SORAS..they are really stuck in Soap Opera Realm...and the final big bad will be Erica Kane...who could give both Regina and Zelena lessons in bitchy quips.

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I've got it! That tea that speeds up pregnancies also speeds up aging. Zelena gave it to her kid to get her past the diapers stage but accidentally overdosed her, so she became 18 in a few days. Henry brought some with him on his journeys, after misreading the label and thinking it would make him a hero. He figured it out quickly when he became 30 overnight, but there was some left in his Tron lunchbox, and Lucy found it when she was a toddler and aged 8 years. So, really only a few years have passed.

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Ok, I'm lagging behind, I know, I know lol. Well, maybe the couple of months break was useful, because this episode was somewhat engaging (albeit, I could not care less for the plot and most of the time I was zoning out). What really bothered me was the sacrifice ritual. So, apparently anyone can push the sacrifice out of the pentagram and take their place without any limitations? Because, and I'm basing this on my knowledge from books, tv shows and movies on this matter, usually, if you push someone out from the pentagram, the spell caster has to do the ritual anew, and that's if the magic of the pentagram does not harm the person trying to save the sacrifice. But I guess, it was too complex for this show. Oh, well.

And if you can push someone out of the pentagram, I guess you could simply walk away from it as well. Sure, Mother Dreadlocks would probably magic you back to the pentagram, but still (or maybe watch with a gaping mouth how the sacrificial lamb leaves lol).

Edited by Rushmoras
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So, I've only just gotten around to watching the three episodes I've missed, so I'm probably going to rant about stuff that has already been covered. I'll glance through the episode thread later.

Ack, the timeline is stupid and confusing and I don't get it in any way. How is Robin eighteen years old in the opening scene? How did eighteen years supposedly pass in Storybrooke when I thought only a few months had passed when adult Henry met up with Emma? Am I just misremembering any information since I put the show out of my mind until I need to watch the next episode? Nah, I already know the answer. A&E don't give a shit about the continuity issues they have. Robin being eighteen "many years ago" in Storybrooke just means that Emma/Hook totally waited eighteen years to have a kid and Emma is in her fifties by now. 

I had no shits given about any of the attempted deaths, or actual deaths, in this episode. The scene of Mother Gothel tricking Robin was so, so bad. 

Everyone's plots are just so boring. Whook has done absolutely nothing of importance besides be sad about something (his daughter or....whatever the hell his plot is in HH), Henry's new role is now "father" to Lucy, both in flashbacks and HH, and Regina's kind of there to move the story along, despite nothing really moving along. Seriously, eleven episodes in and almost the entire cast is still under the curse. Nobody of importance knowing anything is boring because nothing can move forward. Regina/Zelena moving forward is marginally better, but before Zelena, Regina had no purpose. It feels like nothing has happened in 11 episodes and things are only starting to inch forward. 

Congratulations; you killed off the first "villain" of the season, which changes nothing, since Victoria's done nothing of importance besides evict people and I guess now putting Lucy to sleep. Oh, and whining about Anastasia. 

Mother Gothel sucks, I'm just going to say it. Seriously, how old is she supposed to be? 40? 

Drizella is still the most interesting part of the season. Jacinda? Still the worst part of the season. Adult Henry could have been interesting, but they shackled him to Jacinda, which makes him boring. They're also clearly going to milk the baby Lucy in Henry's arms scenes for what they're worth.

Also, just kill off Rumple already. It's annoying that his whole plan this season is to commit suicide to be with Belle. Screw Gideon, am I right? Rumple just doesn't care about his kids in any way, so at least that's consistent. 

I'm not sure why I'm trying to catch up to watch tonight's episode. 

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1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm not sure why I'm trying to catch up to watch tonight's episode. 

Because you enjoy suffering, like this rest of us in the insane asylum.

We're all mad here. :)

Edited by KingOfHearts
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On 3/23/2018 at 1:47 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Because you enjoy suffering, like this rest of us in the insane asylum.

We're all mad here. :)

 

"I'm mad; you're mad; we're all mad here" as all but my grin fades away.

Edited by jhlipton
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It was such a treat to watch this episode without having to wait two or three months for it.

What struck me on rewatch was that this episode was just so full of random plot leaps.  Since Roni conveniently brought Zelena to Hyperion Heights, Gothel could conveniently ask Zelena for the convenient resurrection stone which Zelena conveniently figured out was in their old Kelly & Roni sign which Victoria who conveniently got out of the well could conveniently take from Zelena to get to the greenhouse that Weaver conveniently located as the site of the cult meetings.  And that doesn't even include the flashbacks.

Spoiler

I don't think any subsequent episode explained why Gothel even wanted Lucy to wake up, did they?

In the flashbacks, it was nice to see Regina comforting Whook about reuniting with Alice someday, but it's disappointing we skipped all the development of their quasi-friendship, since it could have been interesting to see.

It still bothers me that Gothel chose Robyn for the sacrifice out of all the people in all the realms for no apparent reason.  I actually wouldn't have minded if Robyn had been sacrificed since it was her fault for choosing to stay with Mophead and it would have been quite satisfying to see her get what she deserved.  

Why was Victoria tied to the rope to be raised up from the well, but when she was lowered, the rope just untied?  Did Gothel climb down and secure her?  She didn't have magic at this point, did she?

Given the dismal new characters, Zelena was nice to see, though she was still really rude and unfeeling towards Whook ("I don't give a damn about your daughter") despite her becoming such a "good" person.  We also didn't see how she and Regina became so close considering they were conflicting in the flashbacks as well.

Spoiler

Was there ever an explanation about why Nick wanted the paternity results to stay hidden?  Since Nick apparently killed the doctor solely because she was in the Coven, and not because of the paternity test.

Edited by Camera One
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I feel creeped out being in the Secret Garden by myself, LOL.

I was thinking about how this episode re-framed the season.  It re-introduced Zelena and introduced Robyn.  It transitioned Victoria out, and introduced a new obstacle to Henry and Jacinda being together - the Gloved Hand (supposedly, since it took the paternity results).  The Gloved Hand would also give Rogers something to investigate.  It reset Lucy back to being awake.  

But really, the same threats should still have been present.  Regina should still be worried that if the Curse breaks, Henry would die.  Gothel technically still has that big leverage against them, plus she has magic now with the amulet.  You'd think she would become much more powerful and formidable in the next few episodes.

Spoiler

Knowing what actually happens, these teases were red herrings.  Gothel doesn't do much for quite a while.

If Victoria hadn't been able to wake Anastasia, would Gothel have?  Where did Gothel get those magic-transferring vines from, anyway?  

How did Gothel get a warehouse with a well in it?  How did you buy/rent her own place?  I suppose Drizella could have set her up with both of those before she was betrayed.

I wonder if Madame Leota will become important in future episodes since Gothel went to so much trouble trying to resurrect her in this one.

Edited by Camera One
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6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I feel creeped out being in the Secret Garden by myself, LOL.

Sorry to abandon you there, but I've been at a conference. And in spite of rewatching this episode the other night, I barely remember it.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Since Roni conveniently brought Zelena to Hyperion Heights, Gothel could conveniently ask Zelena for the convenient resurrection stone which Zelena conveniently figured out was in their old Kelly & Roni sign

And there you have to wonder how it got into the sign. If Gothel and/or Drizella were in charge of the curse, why would they have made that one thing that was transported to this world be in their control, when so many other things weren't? Hook's hook is in the evidence locker, but somehow Zelena still had the stone?

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

In the flashbacks, it was nice to see Regina comforting Whook about reuniting with Alice someday, but it's disappointing we skipped all the development of their quasi-friendship, since it could have been interesting to see.

We skipped all the relationship development with WHook. We don't know what kind of relationship he built with Henry or Regina, how he fit in with Ella, Tiana, etc. Sometimes I think the writers forgot that he was a total stranger to these people. They had him just fall comfortably into Hook Prime's role with Henry and into a totally different relationship with Regina, where instead of snarking at him, she tends to him when he's sick and reassures him. Where did that come from? We know WHook is a total cinnamon roll, but we didn't see Regina learn this.

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

It still bothers me that Gothel chose Robyn for the sacrifice out of all the people in all the realms for no apparent reason.

That was convenient. Was she maybe already targeting Regina and doing something designed to hurt/annoy her? But, otherwise, in a world where there is magic, why did she have to go to Storybrooke to find someone?

Spoiler

It's especially weird, given that it doesn't seem to occur to her until the very end that she has a daughter who is half wood nymph and would have the same kind of magic, and she doesn't seem to have any qualms about sacrificing her.

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

It transitioned Victoria out, and introduced a new obstacle to Henry and Jacinda being together - the Gloved Hand (supposedly, since it took the paternity results).

Oh, the paternity results. I'd forgotten how much that annoyed me. They wouldn't just do random DNA testing like that. There aren't a lot of organs that can be taken from a living donor, and for the most part, you can't put an adult organ in a child, so there's no point in even testing the parents, and they certainly wouldn't test a random stranger who's just hanging out at the hospital. It was so random to be like "we need to do a DNA test" for someone in a coma when they didn't know what was wrong. That whole situation was so obviously contrived, just to create the suspense for the audience that they'd get a DNA test result proving Henry was the father.

And I hate that they treated Victoria's heel turn as legitimate when she decided she loved Drizella, after all, after learning one bit of info about her. Drizella was a child, and Victoria -- the adult -- was the one pouting about a child not loving her enough. Meanwhile, the totally good and pure Anastasia who was close to her mother never thought to tell her than the lanterns were Drizella's idea? She never noticed the distance or tension between her mother and little sister and did anything to help ease it? She never discussed it with her mother? They never talked about the lanterns that led her home?

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4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And there you have to wonder how it got into the sign. If Gothel and/or Drizella were in charge of the curse, why would they have made that one thing that was transported to this world be in their control, when so many other things weren't? Hook's hook is in the evidence locker, but somehow Zelena still had the stone?

It was the same issue with Drizella and Gothel not knowing where Anastasia was.  I suppose the rule is if the curse-caster did not know where an object was before the Curse, then they couldn't control where that object ends up in the Cursed world.  Zelena had the amulet and Tremaine hid Anastasia, so both of these locations would be unknown to Drizella and Gothel.  It still doesn't explain why some objects are kept by the owner (eg. Zelena had the amulet) but other objects are not (eg. Whook losing his hook).  In the first Curse, Mary Margaret still had her wedding ring for some reason, but they lost the baby mobile to Mr. Gold's shop.

There are so many random unanswered questions about how the Curse worked.  The White Elephant ensured Lucy was still Jacinda's daughter, I thought.  So how come Robyn was still Zelena's daughter?  Or Tiana was still Jacinda's BFF?  Or Alice was still Rumple's informant?  I guess that could be explained by saying Rumple had a second white elephant for himself, or there was a white elephant sale and Zelena bought one too.

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Meanwhile, the totally good and pure Anastasia who was close to her mother never thought to tell her than the lanterns were Drizella's idea? She never noticed the distance or tension between her mother and little sister and did anything to help ease it? She never discussed it with her mother? They never talked about the lanterns that led her home?

This is so true and such a stretch.  I guess the characters are frozen in place with no dialogue until they are touched by a flashback.

In the flashback, Zelena sacrificed herself in the ritual to save her daughter, and in the present-day, Victoria sacrificed herself in the same frickin' ritual for her daughter.   Is that amazing parallelism or what?  Too bad there wasn't a handy bow and arrow lying around the greenhouse, eh?  It would have been more in character if Gothel had brought out the crystal ball to resurrect Madame Leota instead of Lucy.

Spoiler

Did we ever find out why Gothel cared enough to wake Lucy up?  

Edited by Camera One
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16 hours ago, Camera One said:

So how come Robyn was still Zelena's daughter? 

They were still mother and daughter, but they were separated, I guess. We don't know if the whole "Aunt Regina said I didn't have to go to college" thing was a real memory or if it's a fake curse memory and the curse sent Robyn off somewhere else and estranged mother and daughter.

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

Or Tiana was still Jacinda's BFF?  Or Alice was still Rumple's informant?

This is still more It Happened Offscreen. All those people might have met again in the curse and their relationships re-formed. Alice makes sense as an informant, since she's on the streets and aware of things, so she and Rumple were bound to find each other. We have no history for Jacinda and Sabine's friendship -- when and how they met or whether the curse threw them together as roommates.

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So Victoria finally gets to do stuff, and NOW she gets killed off? And her big sacrifice is pretty hallow considering she spent years emotionally abusing Drizella and treating her like garbage because she didnt think that she was working hard enough on their relationship (even though she was like 10 when she decided that she hated her apparently) or whatever and only decides she loves her because she finds out that she was the one who started the lanterns? For one thing, a parent is supposed to love their child unconditionally, while Victoria's love for her daughters is apparently totally based on conditions. Like, she didnt realize that she was wrong to treat Drizella the way she did, she only seemed to feel bad when she realized that she did something nice for her. Also, how has this never come up before?! Perfect Anastasia never told her mom she should be nicer to her sister, especially after she came up with the lanterns? Drizella never threw that in her moms face when Victoria would treat her like crap? Her husband or Ella never brought it up in the midst of their family drama? Its all so contrived, I just cant even. This could have been a really emotional moment, but it hasn't been built up in any way that seems believable. 

So is there any particular reason Gothel choose to kill Robyn instead of literally any other person in the multiverse? And again, why do the kids age, and the adults stay the same age?!? I have no idea what is going on in the flashback world, we are jumping through time and space so much I never know what is happening or why! Which is pretty normal for this show, but its even worse now.

At least Bex actually seems like she is putting in some kind of effort and seems to want to be here, so her scenes are a bit more engaging than most of them, but if they want us to still see Zelena as such a good person now, maybe dont have her screaming at WHook about how she doesent care about his daughter or anyone? Yeah she is upset, but damn lady. Also, this show does apparently know that what Gothel did to WHook was wrong, but they still dont seem to get how bad that was. There are many things that this show does that upsets me, but its constant lack of knowledge about consent is the worst. 

I mean, Victoria makes a good point about how Regina has done countless evil things but is now seen as a saint, and even made the same choice that she was trying to stop Victoria from doing (sacrificing people for their child) and everyone said that was fine, but they act like Victoria is such a monster. And of course, Regina cant hear that logic, so she just yells how she "isnt a monster" which, yeah, call me when Victoria has several village massacres under her belt, which we have never seen, unlike Regina. 

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23 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They were still mother and daughter, but they were separated, I guess. We don't know if the whole "Aunt Regina said I didn't have to go to college" thing was a real memory or if it's a fake curse memory and the curse sent Robyn off somewhere else and estranged mother and daughter.

Yeah, it is very unclear and we never had the chance to get "Welcome to Storybrooke" type episode.  If the Curse transported them on Lucy's 8th birthday and she's now 10 years old, then they were there for 2 years.  Gothel was chained up for two years by Victoria, which was beyond ridiculous planning on Gothel's part. 

It's unclear if on Day 1 of the Curse, Zelena was with Regina in the bar along with Robyn, and they really did have a real conflict which caused Zelena to leave Hyperion Heights for San Francisco and Robyn to go backpacking.  Or if that was all fake memories.  The Cursed people all landed in Hyperion Heights first, presumably, though that doesn't explain why Henry was supplanted elsewhere.  

This was the explanation for the white elephant by Rumple:

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RUMPLE: A white elephant.

WHOOK: Will this help stop the curse from happening?

RUMPLE: Stop it? No, deary. Nothing can stop it. But when the curse comes, that can keep your most precious relationship intact.

WHOOK: Alice. So we will remember who we are?

RUMPLE: No. Your memories will be replaced. But in the random tumult of the curse, it ensures you will still be father and daughter. 

On another topic, I don't understand why Victoria took 2 years to unearth Anastasia from underground.  Or did she not know where she was?

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, this show does apparently know that what Gothel did to WHook was wrong, but they still dont seem to get how bad that was. There are many things that this show does that upsets me, but its constant lack of knowledge about consent is the worst. 

Yes, there was all that outrage that A&E would have seen, and they still threw in a sickening line for Gothel to Whook, "Keep turning up on my doorstep, Captain, and a girl might start to think you're sweet on her."  So a rapist mocking their victim is a joke?  They clearly don't care.

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23 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yes, there was all that outrage that A&E would have seen, and they still threw in a sickening line for Gothel to Whook, "Keep turning up on my doorstep, Captain, and a girl might start to think you're sweet on her."  So a rapist mocking their victim is a joke? 

It's already a bit awkward for WHook and Alice, with her being his rape baby, but at least he's the victim and the one raising the child, with them both aware that the mother is not a good person. But then there's Zelena and Robyn, where they talk about her father's legacy, and the fact that she exists because her mother betrayed, deceived, and raped her father has been swept under the rug. How does Zelena talk about Robin to their daughter? Regina seems to have totally forgotten the fact that this kid is the daughter of her one-time soulmate (or is that why she gave her the spellbook?). Does Robyn know she has a half-brother out there somewhere? Does she know the true story about her origins? Every time they mentioned her father, I cringed.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So is there any particular reason Gothel choose to kill Robyn instead of literally any other person in the multiverse?

I don't remember how it all lines up, but did Robyn's attempted spell maybe trigger something somewhere else, like a stirring in the force kind of thing that got Gothel's attention and told her there was power for the taking from that source?

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And again, why do the kids age, and the adults stay the same age?!?

I guess to some extent it's the same thing that's happening now in Poldark, where the adult actors look more or less the same while the children have grown up, to the point that a child born in season one is now trying to get married while the adults haven't changed much. But there, it was never a plot point that any parents were the same age as their child and we know there are no magical timeline shenanigans. Plus, on that show I think most of the actors were a lot older than their characters were supposed to have been in season one, so now with the natural passage of real-world time the actors are actually around the age their characters are supposed to be in the current season. And they've been allowed to change clothes so they wear different styles.

If they wanted this season to have been the next generation, then maybe they should have just gone with it and not tried to have the adults in it, other than immortal Rumple. Or have some reason why the adults haven't aged -- they were frozen in time somehow and the grown kids have to save them.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And of course, Regina cant hear that logic, so she just yells how she "isnt a monster" which, yeah, call me when Victoria has several village massacres under her belt, which we have never seen, unlike Regina. 

Yeah, the moment I allow myself to almost sort of like Regina, the hypocrisy arises again. Victoria's body count is much, much lower than Regina's, and I think most of hers, aside from the fairy godmother, are indirect. She also seems to have changed sides before she got really bad, and I'm not sure how much she can be blamed for what she's done in Hyperion Heights, since a lot of it seems to have been her curse personality. She'd already changed sides before the curse. The curse seems to have made her think she was still her old self who wanted to hurt all those other people. Not that we actually saw her changing sides or saw how much she'd changed her ways.

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52 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Or have some reason why the adults haven't aged -- they were frozen in time somehow and the grown kids have to save them.

"I dont have time to worry about time lines." Dont forget, wanting to know how the story works is stupid, apparently. Our questions are as meaningless as ever. 

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3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Every time they mentioned her father, I cringed.

Seemed almost like damage control, but if it were, A&E probably wouldn't have done the same thing with WHook, Gothel and Alice. The writers seem completely comfortable with the idea of rape babies, which is messed up on several levels. I'm not opposed to the mere presence of them, but the writers never acknowledge the gravity of the heinous deed nor the emotions involved. WHook and Robin were violated, yet that never really mattered.

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What Zelena did to Robin would have made for some interesting conflict between her and her daughter, and more organic than what they went with. It struck me as odd that Zelena was refusing to teach her daughter magic, given that people refusing to teach her magic in spite of her talent was what set her off to become evil. She, of all people, should have known that guiding and encouraging someone with power is important. But if Robyn found out the real story of how she was conceived, that might have created a rift that Gothel could have exploited, and then Zelena being willing to sacrifice for her daughter could have led to a conversation about how Zelena was wrong and in a really bad place when she did that, and she regrets what she did, but is glad that she has Robyn, and mention that Robyn's father was a good man who deserved better, or something like that.

It is weird that they have the romance between the two rape babies without much acknowledgment of that.

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25 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Seemed almost like damage control, but if it were, A&E probably wouldn't have done the same thing with WHook, Gothel and Alice. The writers seem completely comfortable with the idea of rape babies, which is messed up on several levels. I'm not opposed to the mere presence of them, but the writers never acknowledge the gravity of the heinous deed nor the emotions involved. WHook and Robin were violated, yet that never really mattered.

Exactly. If it was damage control they wouldn't have done the same thing two more times. They got the reaction they didn't expect over Regina and Graham way back in season one. So many people pointing out it was rape, and they clearly pointed out in season one that's what it was. You know the scene where Regina takes his heart and orders her guards to take him to her bedchamber. They tried to claim it wasn't rape and all they did was play chess and it didn't happen. Which made you think they were trying to do damage control. Then of course double down on it by showing Regina controlling Graham's heart in the flashback in Welcome to Storybrooke. They never understood the outrage from that. For some reason they don't see it as rape. When it clearly is. They clearly set it up as rape. Or even realize that fans do see it that way and decide not to ever do that again. I'm not opposed to rape or rape babies in shows but it needs to be treated as that and shown as that. This show never does. They keep acting like its no big deal And it keeps repeating it. 

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They've been careful to always have men be the victims of rape.  They didn't show the act with Robin and Zelena, yet they did with Gothel and Whook.  Maybe the actor who played Graham went overboard in making the character seem really traumatized and violated by what happened, and A&E didn't intend for it to get that "heavy".  After all, it was no doubt meant to be "dark" but not "bleak".

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17 hours ago, Camera One said:

They've been careful to always have men be the victims of rape.  They didn't show the act with Robin and Zelena, yet they did with Gothel and Whook.  Maybe the actor who played Graham went overboard in making the character seem really traumatized and violated by what happened, and A&E didn't intend for it to get that "heavy".  After all, it was meant to be dark but not bleak.

I don't think its the actor. I think its A&E who set it up that way. In the Heart is a Lonely Hunter Graham is clearly losing it he thinks he doesn't have his heart and we find out at the end of the episode he was right all along. He didn't have a heart so he couldn't consent. They show us Regina/Evil Queen taking his heart and ordering him taken to her bedchamber. She doesn't lock him up.  But to her bedchamber. What exactly are we suppose to assume happen? 

By the time season two is filmed they had to heard the feedback over Graham. They had three choices ignore it and pretend it never happened, address it to show they understand rape was wrong completely or go with an "oops" sorry we didn't mean Graham and Regina to come off as rape. They chose to ignore and pretend it never happened but include the scene in Welcome to Storybrook where Regina is clearly controlling his heart and then double down on women rape by Zelena raping Robin which at first is treated as rape they have rapist Regina blasting Zelena for what she did. Robin never gets any scene about what happened to him, how he feels, what he wants to happen or about the rape baby. Regina takes complete control and makes all the decisions. When she drops it, it never comes up again. Then later Whook being raped by a woman. It can't be an actor if A&E keep going back to the same thing and managing to make it worse each time. That's on them.

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7 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

It can't be an actor if A&E keep going back to the same thing and managing to make it worse each time. That's on them.

I totally agree.  I only meant that the actor portrayed the emotions that a rape victim would have exhibited, which really highlighted the reality of what A&E was writing.  A&E's intention of making Regina seem bold and audacious by ordering Graham to her bedchamber completely backfired.

But as you said, A&E didn't learn from it, and instead doubled down.  That is what's so disturbing.  

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2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I totally agree.  I only meant that the actor portrayed the emotions that a rape victim would have exhibited, which really highlighted the reality of what A&E was writing.  A&E's intention of making Regina seem bold and audacious by ordering Graham to her bedchamber completely backfired.

But as you said, A&E didn't learn from it, and instead doubled down.  That is what's so disturbing.  

He really did. Graham's actor did a really good job portraying that. A&E really seem like the only ones who somehow didn't see what they wrote as rape. They thought Regina was bold and audacious ordering Graham to her bedchamber. When really it wasn't and it eliminated any consent with her taking his heart. Now if that was never their intent you'd think they'd back track to make it clear Graham consented.  A lapdog, henchman, boy toy, whatever. Or just say 'oops our bad. We didn't mean that scene to come of like that' and certainly never do that again. Its really disturbing that they kept doing it again and showing the exact same outcome. 

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6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But then there's Zelena and Robyn, where they talk about her father's legacy, and the fact that she exists because her mother betrayed, deceived, and raped her father has been swept under the rug. How does Zelena talk about Robin to their daughter? Regina seems to have totally forgotten the fact that this kid is the daughter of her one-time soulmate (or is that why she gave her the spellbook?). Does Robyn know she has a half-brother out there somewhere? Does she know the true story about her origins? Every time they mentioned her father, I cringed.

It's interesting how this episode is all about the backstory of Zelena and Robyn but it completely ignores the giant elephant in the realm.  I'm not sure how Zelena would even have broached this topic.  If she didn't tell Robyn, would anyone in Storybrooke know the full story?  Marian was on ice for most of her time in town and then they left town.  

Other questions... Did Robyn know that her "cool aunt Regina" massacred villagers?  She could have talked to examples of good magical users like town, like Emma or Blue.  

As others said above, in 2A, Cora's spellbook was treated like a gateway drug which was highly addictive.  But in Season 7, Regina gifts it to an impressionable teenager without a second thought?

I guess they said that you could watch Season 7 without knowing/remembering anything about the previous seasons, they were speaking from personal experience.

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18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

As others said above, in 2A, Cora's spellbook was treated like a gateway drug which was highly addictive.  But in Season 7, Regina gifts it to an impressionable teenager without a second thought?

And, apparently without even talking to the teenager's mother. Then again, this is the woman who taught Drizella how to use her magic without first getting any kind of sense where she was on the evil scale and told her about the Dark Curse, so I guess she's consistent. Even though you'd think that after what happened to her, she'd be more cautious about how young people with magical powers were trained and taught.

21 minutes ago, Camera One said:

She could have talked to examples of good magical users like town, like Emma or Blue.  

Even mentioning that Emma had taught her would have meant acknowledging Emma's existence.

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If she didn't tell Robyn, would anyone in Storybrooke know the full story?  Marian was on ice for most of her time in town and then they left town. 

Granny and a couple of the dwarfs (or at least Grumpy) were along for the trip to Camelot, where Zelena was pregnant and an uncomfortable Robin was along, so I'm pretty sure they knew something about Robyn's origins, and if Granny and Grumpy knew anything, it probably didn't remain very secret. At the very least, there would be whispers about where Zelena's child came from around town.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

They've been careful to always have men be the victims of rape. 

I get the feeling they're the sort who don't believe a man can be raped, especially if the woman is hot. It's that cave man attitude that a man is always up for sex and would never say no to an attractive woman. It's even kind of hot if the woman takes control, and it's not like she's holding a gun to his head. The Regina and Graham situation was pretty much indefensible, given that she was controlling his heart and he was absolutely compelled, but they still seemed to think that was flirty and sexy. With Robin and then with WHook, both of them consented to sex, but their consent was based on deception. Robin wouldn't have slept with Zelena if he'd known that's who it was. WHook might have slept with Gothel (the Rapunzel deception was purely for the audience, so we wouldn't know who she was until later), but he wouldn't have slept with her if he'd known that the entire purpose was to get her pregnant so she could escape and leave the baby trapped in the tower. I'm not entirely sure if they wrote Gothel's constant digs at WHook and sly innuendo at Rogers to be creepy or if it's meant to be bold and audacious. He reacts like he's creeped out and horrified, but we don't know if that's scripted or if that's just the way Colin plays it.

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14 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It struck me as odd that Zelena was refusing to teach her daughter magic, given that people refusing to teach her magic in spite of her talent was what set her off to become evil. She, of all people, should have known that guiding and encouraging someone with power is important

Which brings up an interesting thought I'd never brought up before. (Taking this to All Seasons because it's off-topic.)

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When we watched this episode my wife turned to me and asked 'does she know her mother RAPED her father?' we shall, it seems, never know. And that's a shame because, first, if your story includes such a horribly absurd and absurdly horrible scenario, you should at least commit to it and think about the consequences. More importantly, though, that's a fascinating source of drama.

People on here have pointed out that Zelena in this season seems so much nicer than she was in previous seasons, and you can easily imagine her being an incredibly affectionate, supportive and loving mother. Now imagine you're a teenage girl and you live with this warm, kind, generous woman, the kind who just lights up a room when she arrives and is there for you with unconditional love through all your troubles... Then learning that she once killed a woman and took her place in order to violate your father (who, incidentally, you've grown up hearing praised to high heaven, you're named for him and he was such a great hero) and that's where you come from.

How the hell do you reconcile those two ideas? How can you see yourself as carrying that heroic legacy when you suddenly know you're the product of such evil?

Even if you know about Uncle Hook's Murder Bling or that Cool Auntie Gina was once The Evil Queen, Kinslayer, Worldsbane, Tyrant of Misthaven and Destroyer of Multitudes, it would be a shock because this would be so much more personal.

And what about her mother? How would she cope with having to face what she'd done, again, and facing up to the fact that the best thing she'd done, raising her daughter, was built on one of her most gruesome crimes? That this crime continues to hurt people, to hurt the daughter she loves so much, and might always keep hurting her? 

And what kind of relationship can the two of them have after this all comes out?

Ah... Nevermind; hey, it's the talking head lady from the haunted mansion ride... That's fun. And now Zelena has her magic back and Robyn can go do archery*. Sorted 😛

*Because masterful, combat archery is something you can just pick up. It's not as if medieval longbowman had deformed spines because of all the practice required to get good at pulling a 100lb bow.

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I watched three episodes with my friend tonight.  I'm surprised I'm not hating this second rewatch of Season 7.  A&E have more power over me than I'd like.  I'm mostly turning my brain off during this round, though.   Watching with someone who hasn't seen something is sort of fun.

My friend actually felt sorry for Victoria.  She doesn't seem to like Ivy much, though.  She doesn't seem to mind Jacinda either.   She's really good at guessing plot points and twists, though.  A&E aren't really as clever as they think.

She was confused why Mother Gothel would want to wake Lucy in this episode.  

WHook and Zelena had a good dynamic in this episode.   It probably helps that WHook doesn't have the history with Zelena that Hook did.

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