S01.E11: Will On Ice

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Jack and Grace surprise Will on his birthday with tickets to an ice-skating show.

[Fiero425]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:07 AM, Tara Ariano said:

 

This is from ages ago! It was good; even though only referencing Surya Bonaly! Nice to see Rudy Galindo! Grace proves to be the most insensitive a-hole around; even worse than Karen who lives in her own little world! ;-)

[Primetimer]

Will tells Grace and Jack that all he wants for his birthday is for them to get along. They do. And he gets mad about it anyway.

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[Jeffurry]

  On 2/3/2018 at 1:07 AM, Tara Ariano said:

 

This is from ages ago! It was good; even though only referencing Surya Bonaly! Nice to see Rudy Galindo! Grace proves to be the most insensitive a-hole around; even worse than Karen who lives in her own little world! ;-)

Surya Bonaly! Surya Bonaly! This may have been my favorite episode ever. My brother and I were obsessed with Surya Bonaly.

[Fiero425]

1 hour ago, Jeffurry said:

Surya Bonaly! Surya Bonaly! This may have been my favorite episode ever. My brother and I were obsessed with Surya Bonaly.

I remember making tapes 20 years ago of her performances to send to people who were fans! I never missed taping a performance; her last great one winning the 2000 Goodwill Games over Yuka Sato with Emma Shapplin's, "Cuore Senza Sangue!" Another version @ '99 Keri Lotion FS Challenge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3njz-BkUIM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T11GGHaADLo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqm-DlijPXQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Man36QAw8Vw

She never got the marks she deserved! In that last link, she performed her last triple Lutz I can remember at the 2000 World Pro Champ. Tech. program!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Fiero425

[ZeroDiscipline]

I remember watching this in real time, and completely agreeing about Michelle Kwan. Get this. Sureya Bonaly lives in the twin cities area and hangs out at the local roller rink in St. Louis Park (The Roller Garden). Here she is at the Halloween party:

 

[sinkwriter]

I like this episode a lot more than Tara and Kevin, I guess. (LOL.) I've always liked this episode, because (at the time) I saw a lot of myself in Will - how he wanted something specific but was afraid to ask for it, and that he felt more comfortable 'going along' with something he really didn't want to do, to the point that he wasn't able to speak out for what he didn't want. Thankfully, as I've gotten a little older, I've gotten a little better about saying no, and about standing up for myself. But back then when I first watched this episode, I totally understood where Will was coming from and that's why I really liked how Grace approached him in the end, how she reminded him gently, "I asked you, and you said okay, I asked you again, you said okay... I guess now we know that means okay is not okay." And Will admitted he should have said something, which he really should have. But sometimes it's hard, especially when it involves your friends or other people you love whom you want to make happy. And when you're not good at stating what will make YOU happy.

So while it may seem like a weak plot, I've always found a lot of value in this episode, more than what it may seem on the surface.

To the questions posed in the podcast about the value of Will and Grace as characters.... for me, I thought Jack and Karen were very funny, but I felt the show needed the stability of the Will and Grace characters. The over-the-top-ness of Jack and Karen could sometimes be too much (and too unrealistic), so Will and Grace brought connection to the show (see above first paragraph of me relating to Will's behavior).

Also, my best friend back then -- who still is my best friend to this day, 20 years later <3 -- is a gay man, and during our college years we LOVED watching this show and laughing about it and talking about it. We were Will and Grace, in a way. We always saw this show as "us," you know? I mean, I was more like Will (a little uptight, perfectionist, straight-laced, but good-intentioned) and my best friend was more a mix of the characters, definitely a lot more zany (LOL), so it wasn't exactly our relationship, but we were (and are) a straight woman / gay man best friends combo like the show presents, so it was really endearing and wonderful to see our lives reflected back in a way that I don't think had been around very much yet, back then. It was meaningful to us, and we related to Will and Grace and their daily lives and interests and relationships, and we definitely related to Will and Grace's love for one another.

I still remember watching the series finale back when it aired, and I was sobbing. And after the episode ended and I had pulled myself together, I immediately thought of my best friend and all our history together as friends, and not five minutes after the episode finished, my phone rang and I knew it was him. And it was. And he'd been watching the finale and thinking the same thing, about our history and all we'd been through together and how much we missed spending time together now that he'd moved too far away to see each other like we used to. It was a powerful, connective thing, and that had a lot more to do with Will and Grace than with Jack and Karen, no matter how funny Jack and Karen are and how wonderfully talented Sean and Megan are. It was Will and Grace as characters, their close friendship, that drew the two of us.

I had to look it up for specific dates, but it seems this premise was pretty big during that timeframe. I don't know if Will & Grace was already in process of being greenlit by the network to be created the next year, I don't know how long that kind of stuff takes or when Max & David came up with the idea for the show, but just the year before, My Best Friend's Wedding was very popular and had Julia Roberts and Rupert Everett as the two people in a very funny, wonderful straight woman / gay man friendship. So I don't know if My Best Friend's Wedding sparked things, and that allowed NBC to be more "okay" with accepting this premise for the show? And then it seems a lot of other films came forth after the success of Will & Grace - Paul Rudd's The Object of My Affection came out in 1998, and Madonna's The Next Best Thing came out in 2000, both of which involved gay men / straight women friendships. So this was definitely a "thing" back then, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

In the eyes of today, of course it would be more interesting and provocative and modern and socially conscious to give the characters a better twist (like the "if you were remaking it instead of reviving it" premise Kevin suggested at the end of the podcast). But for the time it came from, the characters Will and Grace were another step forward in (I guess for lack of a better term) helping to smooth the way for audiences to see gay characters in a different light. Maybe Will was too "straight-acting" for a gay character, I don't know, I can't speak to that like a gay person could, but given that before this many gay characters were highly stereotypical sidekick roles, maybe we needed to see someone like Will in a leading role in order to get the average audience to realize that gay people come in all shapes, sizes and personalities, and not all of them are like Jack, and whether they're like Will or like Jack, it doesn't matter. And that gay people can be leading characters instead of always relegated to being the neighbor or the random best friend. It was a novel premise and a necessary one to move things forward another step.

And the thing is, they didn't seem 'unhealthy' to us (meaning me and my best friend, not speaking for anyone else here, LOL) back then. We saw them as flawed and complicated characters, but at the heart of them was deep love and care for one another. That's what shone through, above all else. The rest was just souped-up sitcom drama. I loved how well they knew one another, how they'd finish each other's sentences, how they saw each other's best and worst qualities and still loved one another - that, to me, was the heart of Will & Grace, as characters and as a series. That's why it's important, and that's why it was a good show and they're good (and relevant) characters.

Edited February 22, 2018 by sinkwriter

[Flamingo]

This podcast will no longer play from the web nor can I download it.  If I click to download it; I'm getting a can't be found/proxy error.  I'm having trouble getting to old nonac and canon episodes, too.   From the EHG podcast, sounds like your updating some things so maybe it's just in flux right now?  

[WhosThatGirl]

It’s not just a sitcom trope that characters hate their birthdays, I think every tv show has had one character who hates their birthday.

Also I like this episode. I love Karen during the ice show! And also I get what Will was trying to do, yes he was a jerk but supposedly Grace and jack didn’t like each other which yeah Tara’s and Kevin I agree didn’t make sense? I know jack had a line about “not into her right now” aka he needed a break but it didn’t sound that way because Grace also didn’t seem to like Jack much in this episode either? So I think will just wanted everyone to get along.

Also as far as the revival goes.. sometimes I think one of the newer episodes is good, other times it’s like the characters are too old to be acting this way.

And as for Revivials like GG, eh. I’m not sure what bothered me about it? The story they ended up telling just didn’t  work for me. And GG and W&G are the only revivials I’ve watched thus far. I’ve never watched ODAT so I have no preconceived notions on that show anyway. I’ll probably check the Roseanne revival out and see what it’s all about.

Edited February 22, 2018 by WhosThatGirl

[PTVjones]

I am very confused as to why we don't like Will Smith. He has, single handedly, saved instagram for me. Seriously check it out, it's simultaneously hilarious and inspiring. Movie wise he was on a bit of a low streak, I can definitely admit that. I say that with the caveat that Bright was not nearly as bad as critics made it out to be and seemed more like a personal attack on Will's star power and not the actual movie.

Sorry... I was just really caught off guard by that lol.

[Flamingo]

Happy Endings did the Penny hates her birthday because something always goes wrong thing.

 

15 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

And as for Revivials like GG, eh. I’m not sure what bothered me about it? The story they ended up telling just didn’t  work for me. And GG and W&G are the only revivials I’ve watched thus far. I’ve never watched ODAT so I have no preconceived notions on that show anyway. I’ll probably check the Roseanne revival out and see what it’s all about.

For me, it was because GG amped up how loathsome many of the characters truly are and some of their character traits were off.  

[ZeroDiscipline]

I don't know any real life adults who care about their birthdays this much. Here is a great article about Surya in Minnesota:  

http://www.citypages.com/news/figure-skatings-bad-girl-star-surya-bonaly-makes-new-life-in-minnesota/392501041

[MaryMitch]

47 minutes ago, ZeroDiscipline said:

I don't know any real life adults who care about their birthdays this much.

In my family, birthday parties are for the kids; the adults might get a "happy birthday" text or a card. One year I even forgot my birthday. But some families are the opposite; anything for a party!

[Tara Ariano]

19 hours ago, Flamingo said:

This podcast will no longer play from the web nor can I download it.  If I click to download it; I'm getting a can't be found/proxy error.  I'm having trouble getting to old nonac and canon episodes, too.   From the EHG podcast, sounds like your updating some things so maybe it's just in flux right now?  

Regarding Will & Grace: we moved the podcast to a new host yesterday, so there was probably a period when the episodes were nowhere. I just tried to play "The Big Vent" in my browser and it worked fine, so try again?

I don't know what you mean by "old nonac and canon episodes" -- can you explain?

[VioletMarx]

I love this episode, too! I am flabbergasted by Kevin's and Tara's reactions. I feel like all these early episodes are so silly and happy. This is also one of the episodes where the Karen character starts to turn into the version of her that will span the series.  Love everything at the skating rink and the cowboy cake at the end. 

[sinkwriter]

I always crack up at Karen yelling, "SKATE FASTER! WE HAVE DINNER RESERVATIONS!" 

LOL.

[WhosThatGirl]

On 2/23/2018 at 2:37 PM, sinkwriter said:

I always crack up at Karen yelling, "SKATE FASTER! WE HAVE DINNER RESERVATIONS!" 

LOL.

Also when shes yelling about all the “skate freaks” and she then turns to the women next to her like “not you, honey” or something!

[Fiero425]

2 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Also when shes yelling about all the “skate freaks” and she then turns to the women next to her like “not you, honey” or something!

I can't relate to any of it! My birthday meant little as a kid and even less as an adult! As much as I watched and taped skating, I've never been to a show or competition! It's just not worth the money, time, & energy involved by going IMO! ;-)

[WhosThatGirl]

6 hours ago, Fiero425 said:

I can't relate to any of it! My birthday meant little as a kid and even less as an adult! As much as I watched and taped skating, I've never been to a show or competition! It's just not worth the money, time, & energy involved by going IMO! ;-)

 

As for skating.. I mean.. I watch the Olympics skating but yeah. I don’t think I would pay to see a show of Skaters? Unless I personally know them or something. Like a friend or relatives ice show or something.  I don’t get ice shows? 

[Fiero425]

6 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

 

As for skating.. I mean.. I watch the Olympics skating but yeah. I don’t think I would pay to see a show of Skaters? Unless I personally know them or something. Like a friend or relatives ice show or something.  I don’t get ice shows? 

I thought about going to the World Championships quite a few years ago! I happened to be in Amsterdam for a couple weeks and thought about shooting over to Finland or Germany to catch it, but nixed the idea! I preferred to just go back home to California to watch it on TV and tape it for later viewing! ;-)

[sinkwriter]

I've gone once, a very long time ago. This was back when Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning and Paul Wylie were skating on tour with Stars on Ice, and they were (and always will be) my favorites so I decided to go. They were fantastic.

I understand enjoying watching it on TV, I do too, but it was really amazing to see them perform live. It's like going to a concert - most times I'm content to simply stay home and listen to the albums, but there are a select few artists that I really, really love and it's so thrilling to see them perform in person. You wouldn't think it would be that big of a deal, but as soon as they walk out on stage (or in the case of the ice skaters, glide onto the ice) and the audience goes wild with applause, it's electric energy. SO fun.

[SparklesBitch]

5 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I understand enjoying watching it on TV, I do too, but it was really amazing to see them perform live. It's like going to a concert - most times I'm content to simply stay home and listen to the albums, but there are a select few artists that I really, really love and it's so thrilling to see them perform in person. You wouldn't think it would be that big of a deal, but as soon as they walk out on stage (or in the case of the ice skaters, glide onto the ice) and the audience goes wild with applause, it's electric energy. SO fun.

Agreed!! This is exactly why I will always, always choose the theater over movies and TV. There’s just something SO exciting and energizing about seeing people whose work (acting, sports, music, etc) you really love perform live. 

[Gothish520]

On 2/22/2018 at 2:57 PM, sinkwriter said:

I like this episode a lot more than Tara and Kevin, I guess. (LOL.) I've always liked this episode, because (at the time) I saw a lot of myself in Will - how he wanted something specific but was afraid to ask for it, and that he felt more comfortable 'going along' with something he really didn't want to do, to the point that he wasn't able to speak out for what he didn't want. Thankfully, as I've gotten a little older, I've gotten a little better about saying no, and about standing up for myself. But back then when I first watched this episode, I totally understood where Will was coming from and that's why I really liked how Grace approached him in the end, how she reminded him gently, "I asked you, and you said okay, I asked you again, you said okay... I guess now we know that means okay is not okay." And Will admitted he should have said something, which he really should have. But sometimes it's hard, especially when it involves your friends or other people you love whom you want to make happy. And when you're not good at stating what will make YOU happy.

So while it may seem like a weak plot, I've always found a lot of value in this episode, more than what it may seem on the surface.

To the questions posed in the podcast about the value of Will and Grace as characters.... for me, I thought Jack and Karen were very funny, but I felt the show needed the stability of the Will and Grace characters. The over-the-top-ness of Jack and Karen could sometimes be too much (and too unrealistic), so Will and Grace brought connection to the show (see above first paragraph of me relating to Will's behavior).

Also, my best friend back then -- who still is my best friend to this day, 20 years later <3 -- is a gay man, and during our college years we LOVED watching this show and laughing about it and talking about it. We were Will and Grace, in a way. We always saw this show as "us," you know? I mean, I was more like Will (a little uptight, perfectionist, straight-laced, but good-intentioned) and my best friend was more a mix of the characters, definitely a lot more zany (LOL), so it wasn't exactly our relationship, but we were (and are) a straight woman / gay man best friends combo like the show presents, so it was really endearing and wonderful to see our lives reflected back in a way that I don't think had been around very much yet, back then. It was meaningful to us, and we related to Will and Grace and their daily lives and interests and relationships, and we definitely related to Will and Grace's love for one another.

I still remember watching the series finale back when it aired, and I was sobbing. And after the episode ended and I had pulled myself together, I immediately thought of my best friend and all our history together as friends, and not five minutes after the episode finished, my phone rang and I knew it was him. And it was. And he'd been watching the finale and thinking the same thing, about our history and all we'd been through together and how much we missed spending time together now that he'd moved too far away to see each other like we used to. It was a powerful, connective thing, and that had a lot more to do with Will and Grace than with Jack and Karen, no matter how funny Jack and Karen are and how wonderfully talented Sean and Megan are. It was Will and Grace as characters, their close friendship, that drew the two of us.

I had to look it up for specific dates, but it seems this premise was pretty big during that timeframe. I don't know if Will & Grace was already in process of being greenlit by the network to be created the next year, I don't know how long that kind of stuff takes or when Max & David came up with the idea for the show, but just the year before, My Best Friend's Wedding was very popular and had Julia Roberts and Rupert Everett as the two people in a very funny, wonderful straight woman / gay man friendship. So I don't know if My Best Friend's Wedding sparked things, and that allowed NBC to be more "okay" with accepting this premise for the show? And then it seems a lot of other films came forth after the success of Will & Grace - Paul Rudd's The Object of My Affection came out in 1998, and Madonna's The Next Best Thing came out in 2000, both of which involved gay men / straight women friendships. So this was definitely a "thing" back then, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

In the eyes of today, of course it would be more interesting and provocative and modern and socially conscious to give the characters a better twist (like the "if you were remaking it instead of reviving it" premise Kevin suggested at the end of the podcast). But for the time it came from, the characters Will and Grace were another step forward in (I guess for lack of a better term) helping to smooth the way for audiences to see gay characters in a different light. Maybe Will was too "straight-acting" for a gay character, I don't know, I can't speak to that like a gay person could, but given that before this many gay characters were highly stereotypical sidekick roles, maybe we needed to see someone like Will in a leading role in order to get the average audience to realize that gay people come in all shapes, sizes and personalities, and not all of them are like Jack, and whether they're like Will or like Jack, it doesn't matter. And that gay people can be leading characters instead of always relegated to being the neighbor or the random best friend. It was a novel premise and a necessary one to move things forward another step.

And the thing is, they didn't seem 'unhealthy' to us (meaning me and my best friend, not speaking for anyone else here, LOL) back then. We saw them as flawed and complicated characters, but at the heart of them was deep love and care for one another. That's what shone through, above all else. The rest was just souped-up sitcom drama. I loved how well they knew one another, how they'd finish each other's sentences, how they saw each other's best and worst qualities and still loved one another - that, to me, was the heart of Will & Grace, as characters and as a series. That's why it's important, and that's why it was a good show and they're good (and relevant) characters.

I love this post so much! I think you've really hit the nail on the head regarding why this show was so important. And your story is very touching. This show really spoke to a lot of people back in the day, and I dare say it probably still does. 

The deep love and affection that Will and Grace had for each other is what this show is all about for me. There are aspects to both of their personalities that I (as a straight woman) can relate to. Karen and Jack, not so much. As much as I loved (and still love) them, they were too broadly drawn most of the time to really relate to them on a personal level. 

[Gothish520]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:56 AM, ZeroDiscipline said:

I don't know any real life adults who care about their birthdays this much. Here is a great article about Surya in Minnesota:  

http://www.citypages.com/news/figure-skatings-bad-girl-star-surya-bonaly-makes-new-life-in-minnesota/392501041

Things are often exaggerated for tv, but I know people who care and those who don't. In my family, we celebrate regular birthdays with just the immediate family, and the big birthdays usually involve a larger party with extended family.