The Soviet Union is No More: Casting News, Story Arc Info

[scrb]

Did they really assasinate defectors?

Certainly not famous ones.

But if  the Soviets were actively killing defectors, you'd think the US would have expelled scores of "diplomats" from US soil.

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, scrb said:

Did they really assasinate defectors?

Certainly not famous ones.

But if  the Soviets were actively killing defectors, you'd think the US would have expelled scores of "diplomats" from US soil.

Of course, defecting is being a traitor, as is telling secrets. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Of course, defecting is being a traitor, as is telling secrets. 

Yeah, it seems to depend on the case. The pilot was all about them capturing a defector. They wanted to bring him back to the USSR to punish (and probably execute) him there. That doesn't mean they'd murder everyone--Aleksei wasn't in danger of that that we saw. But if they think Gennadi needed to be killed, he would be. They'd also have to weigh the danger of a defector who was under special protection. But as we saw with Timoshev, that's not foolproof. If Philip and Elizabeth defected I imagine they'd be top of the assassination list.

[Umbelina]

Arkady didn't defect, he was expelled from the the USA.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Arkady didn't defect, he was expelled from the the USA.

Was that a response to my post? I was talking about Aleksei Morozov, not Arkady. 

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Was that a response to my post? I was talking about Aleksei Morozov, not Arkady. 

Yes, that's what I get for trying to type and read around around a cat, and without any coffee.

Anyway, defecting to the enemy country is not OK by the USSR, for obvious reasons. 

It is being a traitor, and if you are some nobody, I doubt they would send KGB hit squads against you.  By "nobody" I mean some baker/shoemaker who managed it alone and had no senstive information or documents to share.  However, certainly not a courier, whom they paid, or someone from TASS who spied for the USA like Sophia, or anyone at all who could have important information to trade to their enemy.  Even then though, many were shot trying to escape over the Berlin wall, without knowing if they just wanted out, or if they had something to actually trade to the West.

If they didn't kill you outright, they would often punish your family members back home in retaliation, for example that elderly retired scientist couple I mention here long ago, allowed out during a few of those Jewish releases, but their grown child and his wife and new baby left back in Moscow, suddenly had no job, no home, no belongings.  Someone else had moved into their flat while they were being told they no longer had jobs when they reported to work that morning, all in mid winter.  They were scientists as well by the way.

Kill them, punish those left behind, sudden accidents. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Oh my. Just saw some pictures from this week's ep (Mr. and Mrs. Teacup) and was surprised at who's returning. It's Kimmie and Jim, together again! 

[Erin9]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh my. Just saw some pictures from this week's ep (Mr. and Mrs. Teacup) and was surprised at who's returning. It's Kimmie and Jim, together again! 

Yeah, just saw that too. I had a feeling we weren’t done with her. Maybe Philip will get intel for Oleg from her. Or Kimmie will blow everything up! Lol 

I don’t dislike the Kimmie plot the way most seem to- especially since Philip found a way to keep from sleeping with her as a minor. It’s served some interesting purposes imo. 

[Bannon]

35 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh my. Just saw some pictures from this week's ep (Mr. and Mrs. Teacup) and was surprised at who's returning. It's Kimmie and Jim, together again! 

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! #%&*!#@!

 

What's it been, 5 years now, without Kimmie's dad ever having his briefcase thoroughly examined, despite the fact that the CIA knows his identity is compromised? What's Jim up to now, throwing keggers for the 20 somethings? Taking them to Daytona Beach for spring break? He's convinced Kimmy that she should live with her dad until she is 35?

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Bannon

[Ellaria]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! #%&*!#@!

 

What's it been, 5 years now, without Kimmie's dad ever having his briefcase thoroughly examined, despite the fact that the CIA knows his identity is compromised? What's Jim up to now, throwing keggers for the 20 somethings? Taking them to Daytona Beach for spring break? He's convinced Kimmy that she should live with her dad until she is 35?

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

Ugh indeed. I'm not surprised that she is back but I have no interest in the continuance of this poorly envisioned story line. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! #%&*!#@!

 

I was hearing you say this when I saw the picture. 

I'm withholding judgment until we see what they do. Presumably they know she'd be at college and that's a girl that imo would have wanted to get out of that house. Maybe she's home briefly, which case it wouldn't be weird for Jim to ever want to see her if he was also back from Japan (if he stuck with that story). They'll be some explanation for it and we'll just have to see if it makes sense. Since they keep hammering how Philip's out of it there must be some special reason he thinks seeing Kimmy could help him.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I was hearing you say this when I saw the picture. 

I'm withholding judgment until we see what they do. Presumably they know she'd be at college and that's a girl that imo would have wanted to get out of that house. Maybe she's home briefly, which case it wouldn't be weird for Jim to ever want to see her if he was also back from Japan (if he stuck with that story). They'll be some explanation for it and we'll just have to see if it makes sense. Since they keep hammering how Philip's out of it there must be some special reason he thinks seeing Kimmy could help him.

The home briefly part tends to not work, because the whole operation depends on regular visits to Kimmy's dad's house, to swap out tapes in the ever so thoughtfully neglected (for years on end!) briefcase.

The only way it becomes even semi-salvageable is if it begins the downfall of P and E.

[Umbelina]

I didn't hate the Kimmie story. 

I thought it brought out so much of Philip's character, for example, Philip refusing to sleep with her in spite of VERY strong orders from his bosses, and not just Gabe, but Moscow.  The contrast and complimentary stories to Philip and his own daughter were also well done.  The main difference being, the actress who played Kimmie was a good actress, and I completely believed her in that role.

I agree, we have to see where they go with it.  If nothing else?  It will give us a chance to see Philip in spy mode again, and I'm looking forward to that.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I thought it brought out so much of Philip's character, for example, Philip refusing to sleep with her in spite of VERY strong orders from his bosses, and not just Gabe, but Moscow.  The contrast and complimentary stories to Philip and his own daughter were also well done.  The main difference being, the actress who played Kimmie was a good actress, and I completely believed her in that role.

That's my feeling. I totally admit I had no problem with the Kimmy story. I thought it was a good thing to give Philip this story where he tried to balance what he thought was right with his orders. I buy that it helped him evolve and I liked the reflection of Paige in Kimmy and in Philip himself, I guess. A lot of the logistical problems other people had I didn't so it worked for me. I especially remember how that season started with several baptism scenes with Elizabeth and Paige--Elizabeth remembering tossing Paige in a pool right before she herself submerged herself in the tub, then Paige's actual baptism. Then I think maybe that same ep Kimmy tried to get Philip to take a bath with her and he refused, and later stood in the shower.

It sounds lame when I lay it out that way, but the symbolism works even better now to reflect the story now.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I agree, we have to see where they go with it.  If nothing else?  It will give us a chance to see Philip in spy mode again, and I'm looking forward to that.

That part, yes. Seeing him in that sleazy wig and sunglasses outfit was great. At the very least I'd hope that Kimmy is maybe a contrast to Paige in a way that reflects well on Kimmy.

[Dev F]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

What's Jim up to now, throwing keggers for the 20 somethings? Taking them to Daytona Beach for spring break? He's convinced Kimmy that she should live with her dad until she is 35?

 

To be fair, that might actually be the point -- that after Philip bent over backward for so long to serve as a positive influence in Kimmy's life, he might've been forced to become a damaging influence instead in order to keep her from leaving the nest. That would potentially be in keeping with an episode called "Mr. and Mrs. Teacup," titled after Gennadi's codename and perhaps suggesting a relationship that's held together by outside considerations long after the people involved should've called it quits.

And as someone who's pretty familiar with Kimmy's hometown of Frederick, Maryland, I'm amused by the possibility that Philip has talked her into living at home and attending Frederick's Hood College, a tiny and not very prestigious former women's college that in the late 1980s was still barely coed -- in other words, the exact kind of place that would make a person like Kimmy miserable.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's my feeling. I totally admit I had no problem with the Kimmy story. I thought it was a good thing to give Philip this story where he tried to balance what he thought was right with his orders. I buy that it helped him evolve and I liked the reflection of Paige in Kimmy and in Philip himself, I guess. A lot of the logistical problems other people had I didn't so it worked for me. I especially remember how that season started with several baptism scenes with Elizabeth and Paige--Elizabeth remembering tossing Paige in a pool right before she herself submerged herself in the tub, then Paige's actual baptism. Then I think maybe that same ep Kimmy tried to get Philip to take a bath with her and he refused, and later stood in the shower.

It sounds lame when I lay it out that way, but the symbolism works even better now to reflect the story now.

That part, yes. Seeing him in that sleazy wig and sunglasses outfit was great. At the very least I'd hope that Kimmy is maybe a contrast to Paige in a way that reflects well on Kimmy.

The actress playing Kimmie, Julia Garner, was able to bat the ball back to Rhys SO well.  She didn't just say her lines, she listened to him, and responded to him, with her voice, her body language, her face, conveying changing complex thoughts and emotions.  I'm so glad Rhys had that chance, because that whole protective father role he gave Philip, while still using Kimmie?  Was complex and interesting to me.

The difference between a young actress (she's really only about 2 1/2 years older than Holly) who CAN "bat the ball back" when acting was amazing.  I think those two really enjoyed their scenes together as fellow professionals, there was just a spark of the unpredictable or something, her reactions we're never rote, and she had amazing timing.

6 minutes ago, Dev F said:

To be fair, that might actually be the point -- that after Philip bent over backward for so long to serve as a positive influence in Kimmy's life, he might've been forced to become a damaging influence instead in order to keep her from leaving the nest. That would potentially be in keeping with an episode called "Mr. and Mrs. Teacup," titled after Gennadi's codename and perhaps suggesting a relationship that's held together by outside considerations long after the people involved should've called it quits.

And as someone who's pretty familiar with Kimmy's hometown of Frederick, Maryland, I'm amused by the possibility that Philip has talked her into living at home and attending Frederick's Hood College, a tiny and not very prestigious former women's college that in the late 1980s was still barely coed -- in other words, the exact kind of place that would make a person like Kimmy miserable.

Very interesting take bringing in the Gennadi comparison Dev F!  Also, thanks for the information about the college.

I wonder if Kimmy did go away to school, or actually stuck around and lived at home?  The only way this would have been ongoing for Philip 3 years later is if she did, but we don't know anything about why we'll be seeing her again.  Your idea is probably right.

I think the obvious jump that some may make is that Kimmy is now "legal" to screw, but I really hope they don't go there, just because Elizabeth and Philip are so far apart now.  In the past, she's mostly been there to bring out sides of Philip, and I hope that continues.  I really doubt the briefcase caper is still in play, but who knows?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

To be fair, that might actually be the point -- that after Philip bent over backward for so long to serve as a positive influence in Kimmy's life, he might've been forced to become a damaging influence instead in order to keep her from leaving the nest. That would potentially be in keeping with an episode called "Mr. and Mrs. Teacup," titled after Gennadi's codename and perhaps suggesting a relationship that's held together by outside considerations long after the people involved should've called it quits.

We'll find this out soon enough, but if Philip was still working Kimmy wouldn't he still be on the job? It seems odd for them to put so much emphasis on him being retired, with that weight off his shoulders and focus on the travel agency, and a whole storyline dependent on him being so out of it that he can spy on the KGB and Elizabeth isn't allowed to talk to him...while at the same time he's actually responsible for spying on the Head of the Soviet Division of the CIA. Wouldn't they be involved in the summit too? Is he picking up tapes he's not allowed to listen to? Wouldn't that still be him working? Is he still periodically sleeping with Deirdre too in his retirement?

Another possibility could be that he's over there for personal reasons with Kimmy. Like, if she still had some ways to contact him and something happened in her life where she wanted to talk to Jim, like her father died or something. Or else he could be re-activating an old contact to help Oleg somehow.

 

ETA: It just occurred to me that if Kimmy is at college it would be in keeping with the whole theme of this side of the story. Oleg and Philip are recruited for this because they've moved on and so are no longer KGB. If Kimmy, too, moved on to college so that she's now a dead end, that would make sense for Philip to go to her. The challenge in that case would, of course, be coming up with some way that Kimmy could be helpful in some way, but if they did that she'd be perfect as someone who's valuable because she got out.

Edited April 18, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

From the Elizabeth thread...the final show titles until the end of The Americans forever.

Speculation and spoilers anyone?

• "Mr. and Mrs. Teacup"  Roxann  Dawson Peter Ackerman April 18,
• "The Great Patriotic War"  Thomas Schlamme Hilary Bettis April 25,
• "Rififi"  Kevin Bray Stephen Schiff & Justin Weinberger May 2,
• "Harvest" Stefan Schwartz Sarah Nolen May 9,
• "The Summit"  Sylvain White Joshua Brand May 16,
• "Jennings, Elizabeth" Chris Long Joel Fields & Joe Weisberg May 23,
• "START" Chris Long Joel Fields & Joe Weisberg May 30,

[anonymiss]

I would like an update/closure on the Kimmy story and agree the actress was convincing and compelling, especially compared to Holly Taylor.

Edited April 18, 2018 by anonymiss

[Erin9]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

From the Elizabeth thread...the final show titles until the end of The Americans forever.

Speculation and spoilers anyone?

• "Mr. and Mrs. Teacup"  Roxann  Dawson Peter Ackerman April 18,
• "The Great Patriotic War"  Thomas Schlamme Hilary Bettis April 25,
• "Rififi"  Kevin Bray Stephen Schiff & Justin Weinberger May 2,
• "Harvest" Stefan Schwartz Sarah Nolen May 9,
• "The Summit"  Sylvain White Joshua Brand May 16,
• "Jennings, Elizabeth" Chris Long Joel Fields & Joe Weisberg May 23,
• "START" Chris Long Joel Fields & Joe Weisberg May 30,

I find “Jennings, Elizabeth” fascinating. It’s how you’d write a name on an official form of some kind. 

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

We'll find this out soon enough, but if Philip was still working Kimmy wouldn't he still be on the job?

 

I don't know how they'll explain all the specifics, but the main reason I expect that Philip is still working Kimmy is because that was the sole justification for them staying in the United States in the first place. And since the season 6 time-jump has otherwise been treated as a flash-forward to the inevitable consequences of season 5, not a radical departure that needs to be explained via flashbacks and exposition, I think it's unlikely that we'll get some convoluted explanation about how initially Philip continued to handle Kimmy, but eventually they found another way to keep tabs on her father, only by that point Elizabeth's missions had become too important and they couldn't let the family go home.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I find “Jennings, Elizabeth” fascinating. It’s how you’d write a name on an official form of some kind. 

Yep. And since Elizabeth's official papers aren't really that interesting to her or her allies, that makes me think the FBI is going to be investigating her identity by that point.

"Rififi" is also an interesting title. Apparently it refers to a 1955 "heist gone wrong" movie that's famous for a detailed, half-hour-long burglary scene. I wonder if the episode will involve a similarly meticulous espionage operation that ultimately blows up in our heroes' faces.

"The Summit" and "START" are interesting as well. With "The Summit," the double meaning is nicely portentous, while with "START," it's . . . maybe kind of hopeful?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dev F

[Erin9]

START does seem to be a surprisingly hopeful title for this show. Not that I expect it to be a happy ending per se. 

She could be being investigated. Whatever the title means, it’s the official, formal way of writing someone’s name. Very different from Elizabeth Jennings.

One thing I can’t picture right now is Elizabeth or Philip ending up- for good- in an American prison. Death or being traded for other spies would seem more likely if they were almost caught or caught. 

[All That Jazz]

START is an acronym for Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, signed in the early '90's about when the Soviet Union collapsed. There were also SALT (Strategic Arms Limitation Talks) conferences around the time period of the show. Not a happy time for Elizabeth.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

don't know how they'll explain all the specifics, but the main reason I expect that Philip is still working Kimmy is because that was the sole justification for them staying in the United States in the first place.

That's exactly what I thought at first, that if Philip was going to retire he would still have to stick with Kimmy. But it's harder for me to make that fit with the Chinese Wall they seem to have set up between Philip and everything now. I mean, the real reason they couldn't leave was because Elizabeth couldn't give up the work and since we know Philip eventually gave up all his sources we don't need much of an explanation. If Philip's still working Kimmy he's not retired.

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yep. And since Elizabeth's official papers aren't really that interesting to her or her allies, that makes me think the FBI is going to be investigating her identity by that point.

 

That's what I thought too. It's her primary US identity listed somewhere official, which sounds pretty ominous. 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

"Rififi" is also an interesting title. Apparently it refers to a 1955 "heist gone wrong" movie that's famous for a detailed, half-hour-long burglary scene. I wonder if the episode will involve a similarly meticulous espionage operation that ultimately blows up in our heroes' faces.

 

That's the title that caught my attention immediately. I felt like it had involve some kind of a theft because it's so associated with thieves. I saw one picture of them filming what I think was that ep where Philip and Henry were in a car. Until I'm proven wrong I'll imagine that Philip robs a bank to pay Henry's tuition because it's fun.

[Erin9]

LOL- I like the Henry idea. Nice to know for sure Henry finally has something other than phone conversations with Philip. I figured that would happen, but confirmation is nice. 

The Jennings, Elizabeth title is very ominous. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, All That Jazz said:

START is an acronym for Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, signed in the early '90's about when the Soviet Union collapsed. There were also SALT (Strategic Arms Limitation Talks) conferences around the time period of the show. Not a happy time for Elizabeth.

Yes, we all know that.  We were speculating on the title having a double meaning.

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's exactly what I thought at first, that if Philip was going to retire he would still have to stick with Kimmy. But it's harder for me to make that fit with the Chinese Wall they seem to have set up between Philip and everything now. I mean, the real reason they couldn't leave was because Elizabeth couldn't give up the work and since we know Philip eventually gave up all his sources we don't need much of an explanation. If Philip's still working Kimmy he's not retired.

--

That's what I thought too. It's her primary US identity listed somewhere official, which sounds pretty ominous. 

 

I don't think there has been much of a Chinese Wall about her normal KGB operations.  There certainly is one about this off-books overthrow or undermine Gorbachev operation that isn't officially sanctioned.  Telling Philip about that one would get him killed.  She's also limiting what she says about Paige, but she's doing that with Granny as well.  It's an unclear area to me.

--

Yes, it certainly is.  At least it's not "Whateverinski, Nadezhda."  ;~)

[Dev F]

Ha, judging by the trailer for next week, I was right about where they're going with the Kimmy storyline -- Philip having to fuck up her life to keep her as a source -- but totally wrong about the timing. I should've listened to my own advice about how the show wasn't going to have important, unforeshadowed things happen during the time-jump!

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Ha, judging by the trailer for next week, I was right about where they're going with the Kimmy storyline -- Philip having to fuck up her life to keep her as a source -- but totally wrong about the timing. I should've listened to my own advice about how the show wasn't going to have important, unforeshadowed things happen during the time-jump!

You did call it! It probably makes more sense doing it now anyway. If Elizabeth is the one pushing Philip to do this (he seemed to expect this to just be the last tape he'd give her before Xmas) it symbolically shows Elizabeth asking him to honeytrap the kid for her, trashing more of her family for the important Cause. And Philip might be doing it for his own Cause.

[Erin9]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

You did call it! It probably makes more sense doing it now anyway. If Elizabeth is the one pushing Philip to do this (he seemed to expect this to just be the last tape he'd give her before Xmas) it symbolically shows Elizabeth asking him to honeytrap the kid for her, trashing more of her family for the important Cause. And Philip might be doing it for his own Cause.

At least she isn't a minor anymore. Distasteful as I know Philip finds this.

But, yes, I'm thinking he might do it more to please Elizabeth to get her to talk to him for his Cause (or if Kimmie's info can somehow help him too) than because she asks him to for hers. And I LIKE Philip's Cause. I like to see him doing what he thinks is right. I'm not thrilled with him spying on Elizabeth, but well, I get it. 

I think she had the nerve to say to him that she didn't ask much of him. How condescending can you get. Seriously. He was utterly burned out, was ready to go home. She's the one who refused to let it go. And she insisted he retire when he tried to protest.

[Umbelina]

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

At least she isn't a minor anymore. Distasteful as I know Philip finds this.

 

I suspect that's maybe what Elizabeth is talking about when he says "She's just a kid" and she says "Not anymore." She's not a minor anymore. And of course you can't ever talk about Kimmy without sort of talking about Paige.

Also she's pimping him out. 

I honestly hope they do something dramatic regarding her views on Henry, btw. I wonder if he'd pick up on the coldness now that he's older and more sensitive about that stuff. Though he's probably got more practice reading his father than his mother.

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I think she had the nerve to say to him that she didn't ask much of him. How condescending can you get. Seriously. He was utterly burned out, was ready to go home. She's the one who refused to let it go. And she insisted he retire when he tried to protest.

IKR? But then, Elizabeth always sees herself as the biggest martyr. And of course she's pretty alienated from her own psychology so it's not like she'd ever admit that she does this because she needs it and she's happy to drag everyone down with her.

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

And I LIKE Philip's Cause. I like to see him doing what he thinks is right. I'm not thrilled with him spying on Elizabeth, but well, I get it. 

Another reason I'd want more Oleg/Philip scenes. I'd like to hear Philip's thoughts on what he's doing here. He has personal reasons for wanting the USA and the USSR to come together and he's not under any delusions that he can speak for everyone back home on it. He obviously wants to protect Elizabeth as well, but it seems like every week he's seeing reflected in her everything Oleg was saying. 

[Moose135]

On 4/18/2018 at 12:18 AM, Dev F said:

"Rififi" is also an interesting title. Apparently it refers to a 1955 "heist gone wrong" movie that's famous for a detailed, half-hour-long burglary scene. I wonder if the episode will involve a similarly meticulous espionage operation that ultimately blows up in our heroes' faces.

Like the time they spent 4 hours (or so it seemed) digging up William's grave?  I'll pass on more of that.

[Dev F]

I had a thought about the title for next week's episode, "The Great Patriotic War." I knew that this was a term the Russians used to refer to World War II, based on the their heroic efforts to defend against the German invasion, but I didn't realize until I was looking into it this evening that "Patriotic" is a fairly loose translation of the original Russian term. It doesn't just mean patriotic in the sense of "a matter of great national importance or national pride." It's a reference to the nation itself, with some sources arguing that a better translation would be "the Great War for the Fatherland." In other words, a war fought in one's own home as distinguished from a war fought abroad.

I wonder if that's how the title will apply to next week's story -- if this is when the simmering conflict between Philip and Elizabeth that they've largely been able to keep out in the world, with their home and their marriage still serving as something as a sanctuary, suddenly becomes a real threat to their domestic existence.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Dev F

[Bannon]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

I had a thought about the title for next week's episode, "The Great Patriotic War." I knew that this was a term the Russians used to refer to World War II, based on the their heroic efforts to defend against the German invasion, but I didn't realize until I was looking into it this evening that "Patriotic" is a fairly loose translation of the original Russian term. It doesn't just mean patriotic in the sense of "a matter of great national importance or national pride." It's a reference to the nation itself, with some sources arguing that a better translation would be "the Great War for the Fatherland." In other words, a war fought in one's own home as distinguished from a war fought abroad.

I wonder if that's how the title will apply to next week's story -- if this is when the simmering conflict between Philip and Elizabeth that they've largely been able to keep out in the world, with their home and their marriage still serving as something as a sanctuary, suddenly becomes a real threat to their domestic existence.

Phil better sleep with one eye open!

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's a reference to the nation itself, with some sources arguing that a better translation would be "the Great War for the Fatherland." In other words, a war fought in one's own home as distinguished from a war fought abroad.

And also this is the fight they are literally having--whose vision of the homeland is correct? What path will it take now? They're basically arguing over two different versions of the fatherland (I think the fatherland word is used in more formal contexts, usually they use the word we translate as motherland that's more familiar/affectionate) that both only have in their imaginations. Elizabeth's now desperately trying to make these ideas more solid with Claudia's movies and culture classes; Philip admitted to Oleg that he's been in the US so long sometimes it's hard for him to remember it, but he's also eagerly reading about it in the papers.

[sistermagpie]

Well, crap. According to the photos from this week's ep the show is absolutely going to have tiny Paige knock out a guy 3 times her size in a bar. 

I wonder if it will come up that at least Elizabeth doesn't put her superhero stunts on public display in bars as herself.  But then, it's pretty clear that Paige's spy career is all about her feeling and looking special.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, crap. According to the photos from this week's ep the show is absolutely going to have tiny Paige knock out a guy 3 times her size in a bar. 

I wonder if it will come up that at least Elizabeth doesn't put her superhero stunts on public display in bars as herself.  But then, it's pretty clear that Paige's spy career is all about her feeling and looking special.

Well, that means that if Liz gets fed up with spy life, she can make big bucks as a boxing trainer!

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Well, that means that if Liz gets fed up with spy life, she can make big bucks as a boxing trainer!

Unless it only works if you have her DNA. Because, you know, Paige is JUST LIKE HER.

My only hope for this ep is there's some hubris story here for Paige. It seems to be the one that includes the clip of Paige talking about how much access interns have and Elizabeth telling her to stop using the guy to get that access like she's obviously doing even if Paige denies it, Paige revealing she's a superhero in some bar (because Paige totally goes to bars), Paige and Elizabeth doing their kick/punch routine in the garage. But also Paige telling Philip she's "not like him" and Philip, hopefully, tossing her little badass around like a wet washcloth. 

I can only hope the other things lead up to that last one and not Paige being more awesome than even her mom gives her credit for.  All of which is more important than backstory for Philip.

[Erin9]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, crap. According to the photos from this week's ep the show is absolutely going to have tiny Paige knock out a guy 3 times her size in a bar. 

I wonder if it will come up that at least Elizabeth doesn't put her superhero stunts on public display in bars as herself.  But then, it's pretty clear that Paige's spy career is all about her feeling and looking special.

Ugh. Paige is not Elizabeth. There are a lot of things that differ, but Paige DOES NOT have the toughness Elizabeth has. None of it. It’s not in her facial expressions, tone of voice, body language. It just isn’t. Tell me we’re not supposed to think Paige really is a super spy. The last 4 episodes say otherwise imo. 

[Umbelina]

Ugh Paige.

A smaller person can do this though.  I've taken down football players in my judo class sparring and at the time weighed about 115 pounds, but I was 5'5".  Being short can be a real aid when using center of gravity fighting.  If she throws a punch and takes him down, that would be idiotic.  If she does a few maneuvers like a foot side swipe with a counter balanced pull/punch?  Maybe.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Ugh. Paige is not Elizabeth. There are a lot of things that differ, but Paige DOES NOT have the toughness Elizabeth has. None of it. It’s not in her facial expressions, tone of voice, body language. It just isn’t. Tell me we’re not supposed to think Paige really is a super spy. The last 4 episodes say otherwise imo. 

Double Ugh. The entire plot continues to stretch credulity. Her turn to the dark side is not particularly believable (IMO) because of they have done such a poor job of setting it up and providing the necessary character development. More important, I am becoming less and less interested in her spy story line with each passing week. This is not why I got hooked on this show in the first place. At this point, I just want to get to the end.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If she throws a punch and takes him down, that would be idiotic.

Guess we can't tell whether he actually takes him down from this but...

Edited April 24, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

42 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Double Ugh. The entire plot continues to stretch credulity. Her turn to the dark side is not particularly believable (IMO) because of they have done such a poor job of setting it up and providing the necessary character development. More important, I am becoming less and less interested in her spy story line with each passing week. This is not why I got hooked on this show in the first place. At this point, I just want to get to the end.

I can get into it IF it turns out this isn’t for her. If she realizes she doesn’t have the right motivation to really make this a life long vocation or the right skill set. If she’s doing this primarily to please her mom, as a way to bond, a way to have a temporary cause to focus on, I see it. 

If I’m truly supposed to see her as a superspy in training, ready to spy for the Soviet Union FOREVER, then....not so much. A real Mini- Elizabeth, then no. 

Fact is- she is neither of her parents imo. They are both made of stronger, tougher stuff than her. We’ve seen that for years. 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Ugh Paige.

A smaller person can do this though.  I've taken down football players in my judo class sparring and at the time weighed about 115 pounds, but I was 5'5".  Being short can be a real aid when using center of gravity fighting.  If she throws a punch and takes him down, that would be idiotic.  If she does a few maneuvers like a foot side swipe with a counter balanced pull/punch?  Maybe.

Fair point. It depends on how/if it happens. 

[Umbelina]

Yeah, in  my class at college I learned very quickly that I had a much better chance against the football guys than against someone closer to my size (a Japanese guy who had Karate, but not Judo, experience.)  The only other two girls were dance majors/best friends and they almost ALWAYS paired up with one another.

[Erin9]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Unless it only works if you have her DNA. Because, you know, Paige is JUST LIKE HER.

My only hope for this ep is there's some hubris story here for Paige. It seems to be the one that includes the clip of Paige talking about how much access interns have and Elizabeth telling her to stop using the guy to get that access like she's obviously doing even if Paige denies it, Paige revealing she's a superhero in some bar (because Paige totally goes to bars), Paige and Elizabeth doing their kick/punch routine in the garage. But also Paige telling Philip she's "not like him" and Philip, hopefully, tossing her little badass around like a wet washcloth. 

I can only hope the other things lead up to that last one and not Paige being more awesome than even her mom gives her credit for.  All of which is more important than backstory for Philip.

Paige telling him she’s not like him annoys me greatly. I hope she gets a reality check to what it’s taken to do his job.  She has no fricking clue. Paige’s 3 years of coddled training is NOTHING. What- she thinks she’s above burning out? 

Truth is- she doesn’t even know her role model mother is burned out. Both burned out. Philip just admitted it before it was too late. Elizabeth fakes being fine to everyone but Philip. 

And of course- neither knows he’s back in....

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I am becoming less and less interested in her spy story line with each passing week. This is not why I got hooked on this show in the first place. At this point, I just want to get to the end.

Her scenes could always be somewhat of a drag, but I could always see what was going on and how it related to the show. She was developing over all those long scenes. But now I think I'm just nervous about how I should be taking this. Maybe it's just that I see cliche girl power moments and assume it's supposed to be triumphant. Plus there's so little Philip/Elizabeth it's like Paige is supposed to be the substitute since she's doing the spy stuff. The time jump doesn't help with that too.

There's plenty of evidence that yes, the idea here is that Paige totally sees the Cold War as existing so she can be cool at last. That defense training for it is to be used publicly in bars and books about honeytrapping mean all your hook ups are the Profumo affair. That Paige is copying all her mother's emotional damage and defense mechanisms without having any of the context and backstory to give her substance and thinking it makes her strong. That the culture lessons with Claudia are totally creepy and sad. Two women pretending their nostalgia about their childhood is the definition of the USSR and the girl who's loves whatever lies she's told as long as they're lies just for her.

Quote

Paige telling him she’s not like him annoys me greatly. I hope she gets a reality check to what it’s taken to do his job.  She has no fricking clue. Paige’s 3 years of coddled training is NOTHING. What- she thinks she’s above burning out? 

I know we don't know what she's really saying without context but it makes me think how she's now been given this loud feminist streak that seems connected with Elizabeth and Claudia. When Claudia first showed up she was all about telling Elizabeth how American women couldn't be feminist while also telling her Philip was a sign of weakness. I don't think it's just an anti-man thing, but there does seem to be a whole "suffering alone makes you strong!" thing.

[Erin9]

True, we really don’t know the context, but it was hardly complimentary. I’m not really sure Paige is in any position to assess how much she is or isn’t like Philip. Or even her mother. There’s too much she doesn’t know, hasn’t done, hasn’t seen, then there’s the number of years they’ve been spies. I feel old saying this, but what does this 20 year old really know? 

I could be misinterpreting it, but right now, I hear her saying she’s superior in some way.  Or wanting to be.

I wonder how I should be interpreting Paige too. I think she’s wanting to be and trying to be like her mom. But is she as much like her as she hopes and thinks? I find it almost impossible to believe Paige can truly sustain being as single minded and passionate about the USSR as her Mom. Or even her dad. Philip may be somewhat Americanized, but he still cares about the homeland. Paige has stories. And TV. Her mom (and Dad) - for now. An interest in communism- but not a passion imo, certainly not an inbred one from birth. An interest in causes, not a permanent attraction to one (yet). That’s supposed to sustain over a lifetime? I certainly don’t hear the same passion from her that I do from Elizabeth. Nor do I think it’s realistic that she would. 

I guess my thing about the Paige story is I’m probably going to think this last arc was really good....or really bad when it is all said and done. 

[Bannon]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

True, we really don’t know the context, but it was hardly complimentary. I’m not really sure Paige is in any position to assess how much she is or isn’t like Philip. Or even her mother. There’s too much she doesn’t know, hasn’t done, hasn’t seen, then there’s the number of years they’ve been spies. I feel old saying this, but what does this 20 year old really know? 

I could be misinterpreting it, but right now, I hear her saying she’s superior in some way.  Or wanting to be.

I wonder how I should be interpreting Paige too. I think she’s wanting to be and trying to be like her mom. But is she as much like her as she hopes and thinks? I find it almost impossible to believe Paige can truly sustain being as single minded and passionate about the USSR as her Mom. Or even her dad. Philip may be somewhat Americanized, but he still cares about the homeland. Paige has stories. And TV. Her mom (and Dad) - for now. An interest in communism- but not a passion imo, certainly not an inbred one from birth. An interest in causes, not a permanent attraction to one (yet). That’s supposed to sustain over a lifetime? I certainly don’t hear the same passion from her that I do from Elizabeth. Nor do I think it’s realistic that she would. 

I guess my thing about the Paige story is I’m probably going to think this last arc was really good....or really bad when it is all said and done. 

What would be hilarious is if they just largely disappeared Paige, Renee-style, from the story for the last episodes. Years from now, fans will be arguing about whatever became of Paige.

[Ellaria]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Her scenes could always be somewhat of a drag, but I could always see what was going on and how it related to the show. She was developing over all those long scenes. But now I think I'm just nervous about how I should be taking this. Maybe it's just that I see cliche girl power moments and assume it's supposed to be triumphant. Plus there's so little Philip/Elizabeth it's like Paige is supposed to be the substitute since she's doing the spy stuff. The time jump doesn't help with that too...

...I know we don't know what she's really saying without context but it makes me think how she's now been given this loud feminist streak that seems connected with Elizabeth and Claudia. 

I never concern myself with how I should be taking a story line on a TV show. As viewers, we perceive things differently and relate to them differently. Unfortunately, sometimes a viewer's perception is not what the show runners intended. If I have to work too hard to accept what they are portraying, then perhaps the problem lies with the way the show runners are telling their story. If I am supposed to accept Paige's journey as feminism, then - IMO - they missed their mark.

7 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I find it almost impossible to believe Paige can truly sustain being as single minded and passionate about the USSR as her Mom. Or even her dad. Philip may be somewhat Americanized, but he still cares about the homeland. Paige has stories. And TV. Her mom (and Dad) - for now. An interest in communism- but not a passion imo, certainly not an inbred one from birth. An interest in causes, not a permanent attraction to one (yet). That’s supposed to sustain over a lifetime? I certainly don’t hear the same passion from her that I do from Elizabeth. Nor do I think it’s realistic that she would. 

I agree and, for me, that's the issue. Lately, we see very little of Paige when she isn't with either parent. We have not seen her develop her commitment to the cause independently. Granted, watching Paige do research in the library, reading in her apartment, or involved in campus activities isn't scintillating TV. However, we don't see her doing much of anything other than following Liz. 

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

What would be hilarious is if they just largely disappeared Paige, Renee-style, from the story for the last episodes. Years from now, fans will be arguing about whatever became of Paige.

Sarcasm! Love it!

Sadly, I'm fairly sure that Paige's arc is crucial to the end of this show. It has been set-up (poorly) for a long time.

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

What would be hilarious is if they just largely disappeared Paige, Renee-style, from the story for the last episodes. Years from now, fans will be arguing about whatever became of Paige.

They'll send her off to Mandyland...