crgirl412 March 17, 2018 Share March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Dev F said: Yeah, that was my immediate read when Oleg was featured in the earlier trailers. I figure we're going to see a hardliner/reformer split with Claudia and Elizabeth on one side and Philip and Oleg on the other. That would be in keeping with both where the Jenningses ended up at the end of last season, and where Oleg seemed to be headed. I don't see any reason to think that Oleg is the new rezident, though. It's unlikely that he'd be having an undercover park bench meeting with Philip if he's operating under official cover. I've been rewatching last season in preparation for the show's return, and now that I know where it's heading, it's much more coherent and meaningful. Basically, everything is about the Jenningses making the dual revelations "I can never be the person my partner is" and "If not for the person my partner is, I wouldn't be able to be who I am." Even the silly wheat stuff plugs into that, with Philip and Elizabeth freaking out because they think the Americans are trying to destroy their grain with a plague, only to realize that the point of the plague is to make the grain stronger, just like they eventually realize that their insurmountable differences are what make them stronger. They are the crossbred strain, basically. I binge re-watched in November when I got a Kindle and of course, Prime as Christmas present to myself. :) Binge re-watching is the way to go, so do it, if able! I feel as though I am much more in the loop! I guess the writers are using a lot of symbolism and many other literary devices to help us understand Philip and Elizabeth. Link to comment
Umbelina March 18, 2018 Share March 18, 2018 How would Oleg even know who Philip is? That was a closely guarded secret, Arkady and that woman who nearly got promoted seemed to be the only ones who knew, and I'm not even positive SHE knew the identities of the illegals. I wish the show would have detailed what Oleg's mother went through, because no way in hell did she just have to sleep with one guy to avoid backbreaking work, starvation, and other sexual abuse. It's ridiculous, and she's lucky to be alive, women had it even worse than men in Gulags. It's an interesting idea though, but there will have to be some pretty big shenanigans for Oleg to know Philip, or trust Philip, if he isn't the Resident in charge. Also, he was under suspicion, so why would they even allow him to go to the USA? AND, he would be putting his parents at risk if he decided to buck the KGB as well. Of course, by now, the parents could be dead. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 18, 2018 Share March 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Umbelina said: How would Oleg even know who Philip is? That was a closely guarded secret, Arkady and that woman who nearly got promoted seemed to be the only ones who knew, and I'm not even positive SHE knew the identities of the illegals. In my mind, when I assumed what I did, I figured he had gotten his identity from whoever in the KGB is on his side. There are people back in Moscow that would have that information (or have gotten it for themselves whether or not they were supposed to have it) and could have given it to Oleg and sent him to the US to make contact with him. He wouldn't necessarily trust Philip straight off. He might know he's taking a risk, but feel he has no choice. Or having read his file thinks it will be worth it, especially if he's spoken to Gabriel, for instance. There's no reason Oleg himself would have access to Philip's identity--he was never connected to Directorate S. But there might be like-minded KGB people in different departments. It actually would be interesting if this meant Oleg was more familiar with Mikhail than Philip and they actually brought that identity into play. Oleg might come armed with info about his family to have something of value to him--it's been useful before. I admit when I read the thing in the in the description of the first ep that talked about some surprising (or something) visitor to the Travel Agency I pictured Oleg showing up, finding some reason to talk to Philip and dropping his real name as a quasi-password. Actually, that just reminded me that we did see a scene that showed something related to that. When Oleg is being questioned about what happened to William he's asked about the capture and death of Vasily Sorokin, an illegal whom Oleg might have known under the name William Crandall. Even if they're less worried about guarding William's identity once he's dead, that's still a scene where people back in Moscow are able to drop a Directorate-S identity (both US and USSR) to somebody. Link to comment
sistermagpie March 23, 2018 Share March 23, 2018 Arkady!!! I imagine he might have something to do with Oleg hooking up with Philip. Nice to see that the show decided to let Henry and Philip bond instead of just celebrating Paige and Elizabeth as they have in the past. That woman at the hockey game totally seems to be trying to flirt with Philip. (Philip probably comes to the hockey games without his wife a lot.) Nice they note this is the fruition of Elizabeth's desires--continuing the pattern of Elizabeth always getting what she wants on these big things (they stay in the US, Paige is recruited, Paige is told who they are, Philip leaves home, etc). It's funny that HT stresses how Paige is becoming "independent" when the preview implies the opposite. I mean, Henry is living away at school, becoming somebody other people are drawn to, succeeding as a student and a hockey player. Paige seems drawn into a world with her mother and Claudia (mom and Granny) that shuts everyone else out. MM says they're teaching Paige about the homeland but we know that means their version of it, especially since we know that the USSR will not be around much longer. Claudia and Elizabeth also seem to be the only two Russians who see The Cause in their particular way as well. I hope that since this is presumably where they're at at the start of the series we'll be seeing them coming back together. Maybe Elizabeth being "at sea" will cause her to question some things. And while Philip is no doubt happy to not have to kill people anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if he found being a Travel Agent less than fulfilling--he's successful at it because he's good at what he puts his mind to and this is the thing that was available. But we know he'll get drawn back into spying. From clips it looks like he's not just helping Elizabeth at times but also meeting (secretly?) with Oleg. That's the described collision course--not spying vs. not spying, but glasnost. He's always been vulnerable to the idea that there's things that need to be done. 2 Link to comment
Ellaria March 23, 2018 Share March 23, 2018 (edited) Happy to see Arkady! Love Philip at Henry’s hockey game while the blonde flirts with him. Hope he gets to have some “fun.” Being around Elizabeth 24/7 would be exhausting. I agree that Henry appears to be the independent child rather than Paige but this may be more of their “spin” on her characterization. Not sure why hanging out with Mom and creepy Granny is deemed independent. Ehh...the Paige saga continues. It certainly appears that Stan has not made any advancements - personally or professionally - in the three year time jump. He had the potential to be a game-changing character. Such a waste of a good actor! Why do I have the feeling that I’m not going to like the way this ends? I fear that Paige will be the hero - or perhaps the martyr for the cause - while everyone else is in ruins. Edited March 23, 2018 by Ellaria Sand 1 Link to comment
VCRTracking March 23, 2018 Share March 23, 2018 Of course Elizabeth is going to hate Gorbachev! Link to comment
sistermagpie March 23, 2018 Share March 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: Love Philip at Henry’s hockey game while the blonde flirts with him. Hope he gets to have some “fun.” Being around Elizabeth 24/7 would be exhausting. I agree that Henry appears to be the independent child rather than Paige but this may be more of their “spin” on her characterization. Not sure why hanging out with Mom and creepy Granny is deemed independent. Ehh...the Paige saga continues. 27 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: Why do I have the feeling that I’m not going to like the way this ends? I fear that Paige will be the hero - or perhaps the martyr for the cause - while everyone else is in ruins. Yeah, the thing I most fear is that sometimes the way they talk about Elizabeth and Paige I worry things I question don't matter to them. Like to me it seems like Oleg, Arkady and Philip are living in 1987 while Elizabeth and Claudia and Paige's glorious romantic fantasies are destructive. The reformers' plans are flawed, but the other stuff is gone. And maybe the show does have that perspective--after all, Oleg and Arkady have, imo, been the best examples of good Russian leadership on the show. There's also all those other characters evolving similarly to Philip (Nina, Oleg, William, Gabriel, Irina, Mischa Jr.). But they really seem to praise Paige and Elizabeth as if there's something inherently superior and romantic about them compared to all the other schmoes. I also just root for these underdogs who seem to be thoughtful and care about their country but have rarely gotten a win for it. All these guys have had moments where they saw something to fight for and did it. I'd like to see them be able to do it on a bigger scale. They don't think they're saving the world. They're just trying to do the right thing. 31 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: It certainly appears that Stan has not made any advancements - personally or professionally - in the three year time jump. He had the potential to be a game-changing character. Such a waste of a good actor! I think Stan isn't even in counter-intelligence anymore. He retired too--if only to another division. Seems like maybe Oleg, Stan and Philip all get people from their old life showing up to draw them back into unfinished business or something. Is that baby in the preview Adderholdt's? 33 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: Love Philip at Henry’s hockey game while the blonde flirts with him. Hope he gets to have some “fun.” Being around Elizabeth 24/7 would be exhausting. Also maybe showing that Philip is a person fully present in the life he's in with people liking and wanting that guy. Philip's done plenty of honey-trapping on the show, but we've rarely if ever seen him being attractive to women as himself--and he's been so depressed and isolated there wasn't much chance of it. I wonder if Elizabeth would notice that, like when she was jealous of Martha. Elizabeth disdains normal life, but she's also never succeeded at it. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 6 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Arkady!!! I imagine he might have something to do with Oleg hooking up with Philip. Nice to see that the show decided to let Henry and Philip bond instead of just celebrating Paige and Elizabeth as they have in the past. That woman at the hockey game totally seems to be trying to flirt with Philip. (Philip probably comes to the hockey games without his wife a lot.) Nice they note this is the fruition of Elizabeth's desires--continuing the pattern of Elizabeth always getting what she wants on these big things (they stay in the US, Paige is recruited, Paige is told who they are, Philip leaves home, etc). It's funny that HT stresses how Paige is becoming "independent" when the preview implies the opposite. I mean, Henry is living away at school, becoming somebody other people are drawn to, succeeding as a student and a hockey player. Paige seems drawn into a world with her mother and Claudia (mom and Granny) that shuts everyone else out. MM says they're teaching Paige about the homeland but we know that means their version of it, especially since we know that the USSR will not be around much longer. Claudia and Elizabeth also seem to be the only two Russians who see The Cause in their particular way as well. I hope that since this is presumably where they're at at the start of the series we'll be seeing them coming back together. Maybe Elizabeth being "at sea" will cause her to question some things. And while Philip is no doubt happy to not have to kill people anymore, I wouldn't be surprised if he found being a Travel Agent less than fulfilling--he's successful at it because he's good at what he puts his mind to and this is the thing that was available. But we know he'll get drawn back into spying. From clips it looks like he's not just helping Elizabeth at times but also meeting (secretly?) with Oleg. That's the described collision course--not spying vs. not spying, but glasnost. He's always been vulnerable to the idea that there's things that need to be done. YAY to Arkady, and yes, that is a plausible reason for Oleg's meeting with Philip. More "telling" and less "showing" about Paige. I agree, if anyone is independent it's Henry. Claudia makes very little sense if she isn't fear-based-sucked into it like Gabe was. She lived through Stalin for crying out loud, no one could possibly think it was a great system who paid any attention at all during those days, and she was presumably KBG's predecessor, so she would know more than most. I hope the opposite, I hope Philip dumps her and her fanaticism and closed eyes. 5 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said: Happy to see Arkady! Love Philip at Henry’s hockey game while the blonde flirts with him. Hope he gets to have some “fun.” Being around Elizabeth 24/7 would be exhausting. I agree that Henry appears to be the independent child rather than Paige but this may be more of their “spin” on her characterization. Not sure why hanging out with Mom and creepy Granny is deemed independent. Ehh...the Paige saga continues. It certainly appears that Stan has not made any advancements - personally or professionally - in the three year time jump. He had the potential to be a game-changing character. Such a waste of a good actor! Why do I have the feeling that I’m not going to like the way this ends? I fear that Paige will be the hero - or perhaps the martyr for the cause - while everyone else is in ruins. Seriously exhausting, as all fanatics are. We knew it would, but she at least cut her hair. Small blessings. We still don't know about that stupid blond girlfriend though, and I really don't think his character has been wasted, I actually think he's very well written. It would be comic book stuff for him not to have to do the work, yes, years of it, to nail the Jennings. So if he does, at least it will be earned. I've had that feeling for a long time, but somehow , this little preview makes me slightly less bummed. Arkady! Oleg! Henry! Philip not endlessly taking Elizabethe's shit, and for once doing what he wants to do are all encouraging signs, as it that little blurb at the end about a long journey...hopefully we get real conclusions. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yeah, the thing I most fear is that sometimes the way they talk about Elizabeth and Paige I worry things I question don't matter to them. Like to me it seems like Oleg, Arkady and Philip are living in 1987 while Elizabeth and Claudia and Paige's glorious romantic fantasies are destructive. The reformers' plans are flawed, but the other stuff is gone. And maybe the show does have that perspective--after all, Oleg and Arkady have, imo, been the best examples of good Russian leadership on the show. There's also all those other characters evolving similarly to Philip (Nina, Oleg, William, Gabriel, Irina, Mischa Jr.). But they really seem to praise Paige and Elizabeth as if there's something inherently superior and romantic about them compared to all the other schmoes. I also just root for these underdogs who seem to be thoughtful and care about their country but have rarely gotten a win for it. All these guys have had moments where they saw something to fight for and did it. I'd like to see them be able to do it on a bigger scale. They don't think they're saving the world. They're just trying to do the right thing. I think Stan isn't even in counter-intelligence anymore. He retired too--if only to another division. Seems like maybe Oleg, Stan and Philip all get people from their old life showing up to draw them back into unfinished business or something. Is that baby in the preview Adderholdt's? Also maybe showing that Philip is a person fully present in the life he's in with people liking and wanting that guy. Philip's done plenty of honey-trapping on the show, but we've rarely if ever seen him being attractive to women as himself--and he's been so depressed and isolated there wasn't much chance of it. I wonder if Elizabeth would notice that, like when she was jealous of Martha. Elizabeth disdains normal life, but she's also never succeeded at it. I agree with all of this, EXCEPT the part about Stan. What did I miss that he isn't in counter intelligence or may be retired? I didn't get that at all. I think the payoff with Stan is a given, I really do. I'm hoping this spans years, in one way or another. I've always thought that ideally it would be like the real illegals. The FBI knew, and watched them for years before arrests, hoping to catch more of them, and know exactly how and what the do. Link to comment
sistermagpie March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 41 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I agree with all of this, EXCEPT the part about Stan. What did I miss that he isn't in counter intelligence or may be retired? I didn't get that at all. I think the payoff with Stan is a given, I really do. Sorry--that wasn't in here. It was in another thing I read. It seems that he did switch departments. BUT he's clearly being brought back in for something, presumably the murder (I would guess Elizabeth is involved) of the hockey player and his girlfriend. And I can also say I saw a Tweet where the head of FX said that all this time we've been waiting for the scene where Stan finds out his bff across the street is the Russian he's looking for and...they did that scene. So yes, the payoff is a given. But there may be more of a parallel to Philip where Stan did leave counterintelligence but is being brought back in by Adderholdt for something. I admit it seems like Elizabeth's constant need to keep going forward, and especially her insistence on bringing Paige in, should somehow play into what brings them down. It could be anything, of course, but the show's had Elizabeth's single-mindedness drive things for so long it would seem almost like trying to protect the character artificially to make the ending be somebody else's fault. 45 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I've had that feeling for a long time, but somehow , this little preview makes me slightly less bummed. Arkady! Oleg! Henry! Philip not endlessly taking Elizabethe's shit, and for once doing what he wants to do are all encouraging signs, as it that little blurb at the end about a long journey...hopefully we get real conclusions. Yes, and with Claudia too! It seems significant that this is a family show and Claudia's canonically estranged from her own in Russia and tried to break up Elizabeth's. Elizabeth and Paige are obvious replacements for them--and Paige is a freakin' American. I can't help but feel like that little threesome needs to all get a wake up call. Especially since... 46 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I hope the opposite, I hope Philip dumps her and her fanaticism and closed eyes. One of the things this made me remember is how Elizabeth so consistently and casually betrays her marriage/family to the Centre. Like at this point she knows the Centre gave her to Timoshev, she knows Claudia intentionally tried to ruin her marriage, she ought to know, as Philip does, that however any one of their handlers feel about them personally they can not be considered friends when they're working. (That's why Gabriel left.) And yet Elizabeth seems to continually trust them above everyone. Last season Philip's openly saying how their handlers are there to manipulate them and then Elizabeth bops right over and starts telling Claudia about how she and Philip will never agree about Paige and she wants her to believe in something yadda yadda yadda as if Claudia's her therapist. She did the same thing when Gabriel showed up, suddenly backpedaling on her feelings for Philip and telling Gabriel about him. She was sending them detailed weekly reports about Paige. No doubt Paige is now turning the same way. She's been pulling away from Philip since Elizabeth started aggressively manipulating her back in season 3, when she went with her to church to manipulate her away from it and lied about how she felt about it while Philip was honest. It's probably too much to hope that he'd get a reveal with Philip before Stan does it, right? The Arkady/Oleg/Philip plot is the thing that most interests me and I assume their side is trying to improve US/USSR relations. It's also always seemed to me like Philip would be squirreling away money in Swiss bank accounts for at least Henry in case of disaster. I could just about imagine Philip pulling the trigger on Henry if he thought he couldn't trust Paige and Elizabeth not to use him or something. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 (edited) I think I'm just catching up on those links now. Seems more appropriate to discuss them here. The EW read was excellent! Looks like tension is back, and a fast pace at least. http://ew.com/tv/2018/03/22/the-americans-season-6-review/ Quote But I worry in its later stages, The Americans is overstretching itself, trending toward wild dramatics. There’s a feeling in the first three episodes of final-act hyperbole that left me a bit dizzy. After a slow-paced fifth season, the final year begins with a parade of bloody deaths. In one episode, I swear, Elizabeth is wearing a different wig in every scene. After years of sprawling the main cast across the world, the premiere awkwardly brings everyone back together, in one rough geographical location and dedicated to various sides of one spy operation. One character gets a mission that could decide the fate of Russia. And one character gets a mission that will affect, well, the fate of the world. [John Oliver snarky voice]: Cool. I am far less bummed now, and getting excited. I haven't read the rest of them as I post that, but will. The spy overall arc HAS to be STAR WARS right? The lie Reagan told (or exaggeration, whatever) that really broke the USSR anyway, since they put so much money into it, money they REALLY didn't have. So Liz and Claudia have to be on that, right? I don't know how you break a post up to quote bits of it, send me or post me that skill if you are so inclined!http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/379461-stars-of-the-americans-talk-us-russia-relations-at-dc-premiere Quote Noah Emmerich, who plays an FBI agent on the show, also said today's U.S.-Russia conflicts could help viewers connect. “We were concerned young people wouldn’t be able to relate to the notion of the Russians being the enemy,” Emmerich said. “And here we are, and it couldn’t be more central to our national conversation.” Emmerich called the animosity between the two countries “tragic” and said it makes the world “a scarier place.” “I think we’re all a little disillusioned,” said Matthew Rhys, one of the show’s stars. I agree with both of them about that. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/watching/the-americans-season-six-refresher.html Quote Over on the F.B.I. side, two sources — Sofia (Darya Ekamasova) and her beau, Gennadi (Yuri Kolokolnikov) — may become more active now that Gennadi has passed a polygraph test. (Guess the F.B.I. doesn’t know about the old K.G.B. trick to beat the test by clenching). Quote Dating is hard in the spy world, where it’s difficult to know whether someone loves you or your security clearance. Stan is in a vulnerable position with Renee (Laurie Holden) — her move into Chez Beeman and the career advice she has given him are suspect. Philip has long wondered if Renee was a K.G.B. plant, but his former handler Gabriel (Frank Langella) has denied it. (“You’re losing it, Philip,” were his exact words.) But Gabriel said — and failed to say — a lot of things. It would make sense for the Center to send a different agent to work Stan, given his history of romancing Rezidentura staffers and how little intel Philip has gleaned from him lately. (Another possibility: Renee works for an entirely different agency. Which one?) At least they will have to resolve this one. It makes more sense now that we know Philip is completely out, that the KGB would place someone else. I don't think the KGB has had much confidence in Philip in quite a while. (still shocked that they let him live actually) Quote Mischa Semenov, Philip’s son with Irina, didn’t get to meet his father in Season 5, but he did find some other relatives in the Soviet Union: Philip’s older brother, Pyotr; his wife, Tamara; and their son. Philip had never mentioned having a brother, so this family reunion came out of nowhere. Now we’re wondering how much more there might be to discover about this side of the family (beyond the fact that Paige and Henry have a cute little cousin). I would really like for there to have been a reason for Misha's entire storyline. Perhaps it will JUST be to show the regular soviet citizen's situation as the USSR fails, not just top people like KGB. Quote Matthew, 43, recalled one particular moment during the sixth and final season that summed up their life. 'I think a highlight of the sixth season was when I had to burst in on her having sex with more than one person, with a gun, telling him to put his hands in the air,' he said. 'No acting involved on my behalf!' Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5534205/Keri-Russell-Matthew-Rhys-joke-Americans-sex-scenes.html#ixzz5AdKPV4Lz Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook Ha! https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/2018/03/22/the-americans-goes-back-into-cold/oDE2m1oJscMIai9XnaUgeK/story.html There is another mention of Misha here, I wonder what will happen there? Glad to here there was a reason for all that last season though. Quote Suddenly, the period drama was charged with complicated subtext involving the present tense — a charge that has doubled more recently, as we look into Russian meddling in the 2016 election, President Babbling Idiot’s lack of concern about it, and the possibility of collusion between the Babbling Idiot campaign and Russia. Instead of pointing toward the ultimate uselessness of all the Cold War murder and deceit, “The Americans” now also feels a bit like a cautionary tale, a reminder of all the collateral damage the conflict created. It feels, with its themes of nationalism and blind loyalty, like a lesson, a warning. The context of the show has shifted from a trip down memory lane to a fraught part of our contemporary saga. https://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-americans-review-final-season/ Quote The show’s penultimate season was something of a disappointment, often feeling like the writers were simply marking time until they could begin the endgame. The final season (it debuts next Wednesday on FX; I’ve seen the first three episodes) still moves at a measured pace, despite having only 10 episodes to work with instead of the usual 13, but there’s a clear and compelling arc playing out between husband and wife, with a sense of impending doom hanging over them and everyone with the misfortune to know them. I've loved Uproxx (Sepinwall's) reviews for quite a while, especially on shows like The Americans. Quote This gives us a new status quo that’s simultaneously funnier and grimmer than anything the series has done in the past. There’s abundant light comedy in seeing how much Philip enjoys getting to live his cover identity for real, while Elizabeth has taken over his role as the member of the family upon whom all of this weighs much too heavy. Between Keri Russell’s performance and the makeup team, Elizabeth has never looked so tired — Philip maybe never looked this tired — and each time she’s handed another new responsibility, another cover job to master, another secret to keep from her husband, the burden is palpable. And with Paige even deeper into the life of a sleeper agent — and becoming very close to Margo Martindale’s Claudia — the divide over how to parent her has only grown wider, because Philip the civilian isn’t even allowed to know all that his daughter has been doing. I do find it odd that Philip is cut out of EVERYTHING, especially his daughter's life now. If the KGB distrusts him that much, why let him live? Oops forgot to comment in one of those other links that PAIGE ISN'T LIVING AT HOME? I like that part. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2018/03/21/the-americans-previews-new-season-in-washington-where-russia-drama-is-already-on-tv/?utm_term=.ff6e179d06d2 Quote Keri Russell, the actress who plays one half of the show’s Russian couple, agents posing as your typical Northern Virginia suburban couple, said the show offers an up-close portrait of the humans involved in spycraft — then and now. “It’s always good to be reminded of the people within a news story,” she said. But she also seemed glad that the show’s end, after a six-year run, meant no more comparisons to current events. “I’m glad we’re getting out now,” she said. “It’s a complicated time, so it’s good that it’s done.” Actor Matthew Rhys, Russell’s on- and off-screen partner, noted that the show’s writers are at least seeing some silver lining in the fresh-again news topic. “I think in some ways, they feel vindicated, because some press in the first season questioned — even ridiculed — whether Russian interest in [the] U.S. was really relevant anymore,” he said. “So they’re going ‘told you!’ ” It is a bit odd how when this show began, it was about the bad old days, and now, in spite of trying not to be, it's become relevant again. ETA @sistermagpie I just read through the only links I thought I'd missed, and still didn't see one about Stan's status changing. Do you happen to remember that link? Edited March 24, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I just read through the only links I thought I'd missed, and still didn't see one about Stan's status changing. Do you happen to remember that link? Found it: http://collider.com/the-americans-season-6-trailer-keri-russell-matthew-rhys/#fx The relevant quote: "Their neighbor and Philip’s best friend, FBI Agent Stan Beeman (Noah Emmerich), has also yet to discover their true identities. Although he’s transferred divisions, Stan remains their greatest threat since his friend and former partner, Agent Dennis Aderholt (Brandon J. Dirden), leads the force tasked with uncovering the Soviet Illegals hiding in plain sight." 23 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Oops forgot to comment in one of those other links that PAIGE ISN'T LIVING AT HOME? I like that part. I assumed she wasn't since she was at college. I figured she was just there a lot because wherever she's living, her life revolves around her mom. Quote The spy overall arc HAS to be STAR WARS right? The lie Reagan told (or exaggeration, whatever) that really broke the USSR anyway, since they put so much money into it, money they REALLY didn't have. So Liz and Claudia have to be on that, right? Don't they already have this info? The Colonel gave it to them in season 1. Edited March 24, 2018 by sistermagpie Link to comment
Umbelina March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 (edited) Oh, that's right. It was ongoing though, and had a few wins in 1987, including Brilliant Pebbles, according to this. It was renamed, but not completely abandoned, in 1994. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative#Brilliant_Pebbles With Paige, she just seemed like the type to live at home while attending college, especially now that she's a spy and all. Ha. Odd about Stan, unless the blond convinced him to transfer divisions, and Aderholt's activity pulls him back in, which makes a certain kind of sense. Edited March 24, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Ellaria March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 14 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Also maybe showing that Philip is a person fully present in the life he's in with people liking and wanting that guy. Philip's done plenty of honey-trapping on the show, but we've rarely if ever seen him being attractive to women as himself--and he's been so depressed and isolated there wasn't much chance of it. I wonder if Elizabeth would notice that, like when she was jealous of Martha. Elizabeth disdains normal life, but she's also never succeeded at it. 9 hours ago, sistermagpie said: One of the things this made me remember is how Elizabeth so consistently and casually betrays her marriage/family to the Centre. Like at this point she knows the Centre gave her to Timoshev, she knows Claudia intentionally tried to ruin her marriage, she ought to know, as Philip does, that however any one of their handlers feel about them personally they can not be considered friends when they're working. (That's why Gabriel left.) And yet Elizabeth seems to continually trust them above everyone. Last season Philip's openly saying how their handlers are there to manipulate them and then Elizabeth bops right over and starts telling Claudia about how she and Philip will never agree about Paige and she wants her to believe in something yadda yadda yadda as if Claudia's her therapist. She did the same thing when Gabriel showed up, suddenly backpedaling on her feelings for Philip and telling Gabriel about him. She was sending them detailed weekly reports about Paige. No doubt Paige is now turning the same way. She's been pulling away from Philip since Elizabeth started aggressively manipulating her back in season 3, when she went with her to church to manipulate her away from it and lied about how she felt about it while Philip was honest... ...It's also always seemed to me like Philip would be squirreling away money in Swiss bank accounts for at least Henry in case of disaster. I could just about imagine Philip pulling the trigger on Henry if he thought he couldn't trust Paige and Elizabeth not to use him or something. One of the elements in this show that has always intrigued me was the imbalance in P&E's relationship, at least in my traditional way of viewing a happy marriage. Philip loved her from the start, would sacrifice himself for her and would betray his country for her. Philip is totally devoted to her and his family. Elizabeth is much more divided on issues of loyalty. I find it easy to imagine having a cup of coffee with Philip while discussing your son's hockey game. (My son plays hockey.) Elizabeth never really connects with other people in the long term. The only glimpse of friendship was with Young Hee and...well, we know how that ended. She is isolated despite having drawn Paige in the spy life. This has to come back around and, most likely, to someone's unfortunate end. 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: We still don't know about that stupid blond girlfriend though, and I really don't think his character has been wasted, I actually think he's very well written. It would be comic book stuff for him not to have to do the work, yes, years of it, to nail the Jennings. So if he does, at least it will be earned. Do we know if Laurie Holden is back for S6? I didn't notice her in any of the previews but maybe I missed something. One of my disappointments with this show has been the writing for Stan's character. In the first episode, we see an intuitive spy-catcher sneaking around in the Jennings' garage. For much of the rest of the show, he has been a broken man, taken down by the demands of that job (none of it without reason). Yes, of course, it would take years for him to "nail" the Jennings. However, over the years, I would have preferred a little more of that intuition and a little less of beer/EST/girlfriends. Frankly, the only thing that has me excited for the new season is the return of Arkady and Philip doing non-spy things. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 9 hours ago, Umbelina said: With Paige, she just seemed like the type to live at home while attending college, especially now that she's a spy and all. Ha. Oh yeah, I would have bought it either way. But the scene where she's fighting with Philip looked like it was somewhere else and I thought maybe it was someplace at college. I assume she's close. She'd mentioned George Washington once. I wonder if they'd want to put her someplace that seemed more impressive like Georgetown. Henry probably has his pick. I'd like it if they kept that contrast more clear, I mean that Henry is on a different level in that area. 9 hours ago, Umbelina said: Odd about Stan, unless the blond convinced him to transfer divisions, and Aderholt's activity pulls him back in, which makes a certain kind of sense. Remember at the end of last season Stan was talking about switching divisions himself and Renee actually encouraged him to stay--it was one of the reasons she seemed like a spy. 1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said: I find it easy to imagine having a cup of coffee with Philip while discussing your son's hockey game. (My son plays hockey.) Elizabeth never really connects with other people in the long term. The only glimpse of friendship was with Young Hee and...well, we know how that ended. She is isolated despite having drawn Paige in the spy life. Yes, she literally can't connect to someone unless they send up some obvious flag that mirrors herself. Young Hee was an immigrant. Betty dropped a million things about herself that matched Elizabeth. Paige, she finally noticed, was also in search of a rule book for living with clear authority. Henry's just "nuts" to her. I would hope she'd regret making Paige and Claudia close because as was brought up before, Paige is a pretty natural traitor. She meets a new impressive person and she's all in and seeing all the flaws in everyone else. Elizabeth is obviously loving having a daughter who's joined the chorus of people constantly telling her how great she is, but I just can't see how it would ever be a good thing to split your daughter's loyalty with the woman who hated your husband on sight and still thinks he's a problem. Oh, and remember when she manipulated Elizabeth into kidnapping that CIA guy. 2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said: One of the elements in this show that has always intrigued me was the imbalance in P&E's relationship, at least in my traditional way of viewing a happy marriage. Philip loved her from the start, would sacrifice himself for her and would betray his country for her. Philip is totally devoted to her and his family. Elizabeth is much more divided on issues of loyalty. This is also why I feel like Philip has to get a win here. Not that I think it'll be so simple as win/lose, but every step of the way Elizabeth has gotten her way and her way has always been to chose the Centre over the family. (Except when she invited Philip back home, and even then she didn't see that much of a conflict; her one true offer to put his wants over hers was to offer to go back to the USSR, and she took that back at the first opportunity.) He's always wound up mostly watching helplessly as the Centre invaded his home more and more, with Elizabeth and now Paige cheering it on. So it seems like in the end there should be *some* payoff where it's not so easy and isn't always right. She can't just live out her hero fantasy, even if it's a tragic one, as if the marriage might not even have been there. Surely her moments of doubts should lead *somewhere.* Things can't just play out the way she obviously has planned them in her head all along--where she dies heroically and in doing so makes up for any problems she caused. Also Paige is pretty similar, I mean in the way that she doesn't seem to value Philip as much for similar reasons. Neither she nor Elizabeth value every day things as much. They have to be saving the world and sacrifice people and personal relationships for it. It's always struck me as sad--how can you think you're creating a better, less-oppressed world by consistently treating people as things? 2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said: Do we know if Laurie Holden is back for S6? I didn't notice her in any of the previews but maybe I missed something. She is in some. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina March 24, 2018 Share March 24, 2018 Quote 2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said: Quote Do we know if Laurie Holden is back for S6? I didn't notice her in any of the previews but maybe I missed something. Yes, she's now living with Stan according to one of those article links up there. It also mentioned "giving him questionable advice" or something like that. She can spy on the Jenning's to her heart's content from that location, she may even actually be significant to whatever eventual outcome we have. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 26, 2018 Share March 26, 2018 I posted this non-spoiler review in the media thread, but thought this was especially interesting (and this does have a spoiler in it for a specific scene). So Paige, Elizabeth and Claudia make zharkoye and talk about how great peasant food is even for weeks at a time because whether you're sick of it isn't the point. (Funny, I just realized, that the thing we see *Philip* eating as a kid are moldy sawdust bread rations possibly ripped from the stiff bloody fingers of a dead convict--not something he'd probably romanticize.) Elizabeth brings some home to Philip who's thrilled to eat it (having just had kung pao chicken), and looks forward to having Stan over to share some if the cold war ends. Elizabeth, of course, is disturbed by the idea of Pizza Hut in Red Square, says she doesn't want to be like the US and "neither to the people back home." Philip points out she hasn't to spoken to anyone there in 20 years and she says he hasn't either. (But then, maybe that's why he didn't speak for them?) From the review: Quote This season (or the first few episodes at least) understands something deep and complex about human nature. Sometimes we’re married to our suffering. Sometimes we hold up and celebrate those who suffered in the past, while forgetting that we could just try to make things easier for the future. Sometimes the world is ready to move on from its pain and its sorrows. But you’re not ready to stop going about in pity for yourself. I guess I just really like something that feels like more of a pushback to the way the showrunners seem to talk about Elizabeth and Paige as if they're admirable automatically because they go to these extremes. Especially Elizabeth for being single-minded and self-sacrificing. I like the idea that the show is also depicting it as a potential psychological crutch and maybe just a fear of the future. A fear of the Cold War ending. A fear of basically doing anything different, even if it was returning to the USSR as a regular citizen. Something Elizabeth needs to lean heavily on to justify her devotion to the Centre and her mother. One so important she needs to pass it on to her daughter who also loves her misery. That makes me rethink that conversation she had with Philip when he said that in EST they teach you you don't have to stay the same your whole life or be defined in a single way. I felt already in that conversation that Paige was rejecting the idea and preferring her pity. That was when she talked about Henry "knowing where he belonged" because he wanted to go to boarding school while seeming to imply that she never could. (In fact, Henry may have simply not felt he needed to belong anywhere yet and was just exploring options.) Choosing to see herself as uniquely miserable and put a heroic spin on that, rejecting all of Philip's lame attempts at optimism. As opposed to the misery giving her a greater capacity for joy in the little things. Of course the ideal would be these two things being in balance, but it doesn't seem like Philip's a real problem with that. 3 Link to comment
Ellaria March 26, 2018 Share March 26, 2018 On 3/26/2018 at 10:59 AM, sistermagpie said: I posted this non-spoiler review in the media thread, but thought this was especially interesting (and this does have a spoiler in it for a specific scene). Spoiler The tidbit of information that I loved in that review is that Philip is now square dancing. In my ideal end to The Americans, Philip tells Elizabeth to go to hell and take Paige with her. He moves closer to Henry's boarding school (New Hampshire?), opens a new travel agency, plays in an adult hockey league and meets a single mom. And yes, I am aware that this will never happen. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 26, 2018 Share March 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: In my ideal end to The Americans, Philip tells Elizabeth to go to hell and take Paige with her. He moves closer to Henry's boarding school (New Hampshire?), opens a new travel agency, plays in an adult hockey league and meets a single mom. You know, while we know this won't actually happen, it does seem to always comes down to Elizabeth's choices. She chose the cause (again) and is now choosing to let it replace her marriage (they tell her what she can and can't tell her husband) and Paige's father (not allowed to tell him what's going on there). She chooses to live in the past. She chooses Claudia as a role model after she tried to break up her marriage. Who knows what effort she makes with Henry, the kid who didn't just agree to become her. Yeah, Philip made a choice too, but his was more about not being able to keep pretending to be somebody he wasn't. It's almost like she's recreating the Beeman marriage from season 1 when Sandra was there and supportive but Stan couldn't make the effort no matter how many times Sandra laid out the reality. It was laid out in season 1 with Gregory who also told her that her value was in "her strength" of happily sacrificing personal relationships. Underneath it all she actually does want somebody to care about her above the cause. She just doesn't want to have to do that back. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina March 26, 2018 Share March 26, 2018 I'm trying to imagine a time during Claudia's life that "peasants" would have these ingredients to make a stew. I'm been on a Stalin era research binge, and this stew would be pretty damn expensive for any "peasant" even if they could get any of the ingredients besides maybe a stolen potato. I only spoiled the recipe, because some may not want to see it. The second spoiler tag is a boo boo that I can't delete. Quote Spoiler Russian Zharkoye recipe Ingredients: 1/2 lb beef 5 ea potatoes 1 ea onion 2 tbsp butter 1 ea carrot 1 ea parsley root 1 ea celery root 2 ea garlic cloves 1 tbsp sour cream 2 tbsp chopped green dill and parsley salt ground pepper measures conversion [+] Method: Peel potatoes, wash, cut into cubes and fry in butter until light golden. Slice onion and fry in butter until golden. Cut carrot into small cubes and fry in butter. Cube beef and fry in butter until light brown. In a ceramic pot, put beef, potatoes, onion, carrot, roots, garlic, season with salt and pepper and pour over a little broth. Stew in the oven on average heat for 30 minutes. 10 minutes before, add sour cream and sprinkle with green. Serve Zharkoye with salad from fresh vegetables, pickles, sauerkraut and green. Spoiler Any peasant that actually still was involved in raising food could be killed on the spot, or sent to the Gulag for keeping any of that food they raised. Who knows? Maybe sometime after 1953 or before 1918 peasants actually made this stew. It makes sense for Philip to die protecting Liz, the visa versa is too "nice" an ending for these writers I think. I honestly don't see the Jennings family all surviving alive by finale night, but who knows? The real embedded spies did, but they weren't murdering people willy nilly all around the country, so ??? I've read in several spy novels that CIA/FBI and KGB didn't kill each other during the cold war, there was an unspoken agreement about that, rarely, if ever violated. SO, maybe Gaad's story will come back into play as motivation for Stan somehow. His death was obviously not intended by the KGB capture team, but with Arkady back? I hope we get a bit of resolution about Gaad. Link to comment
sistermagpie March 26, 2018 Share March 26, 2018 38 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I'm trying to imagine a time during Claudia's life that "peasants" would have these ingredients to make a stew. I'm been on a Stalin era research binge, and this stew would be pretty damn expensive for any "peasant" even if they could get any of the ingredients besides maybe a stolen potato. LOL--yes that's why my mind immediately went to Philip's moldy sawdust bread. He also mentioned soup that was basically hot water with an onion in it. Did Elizabeth's mom change her mind on accepting that big box of food to be making weeks' worth of this stuff? Is this a failure of research or are Elizabeth and Claudia basically intentionally giving Paige a "Potemkin Zharkoye" lesson here? 43 minutes ago, Umbelina said: His death was obviously not intended by the KGB capture team, but with Arkady back? I hope we get a bit of resolution about Gaad. At the very least maybe that started Arkady on the road of questioning he's on. Arkady was a very loyal company man compared to Oleg. If he's now going to Oleg to hit up rogue Illegals to undermine KGB operations he must really believe they're on the wrong track. Maybe he sees whatever Elizabeth's doing as another Gaad operation. 1 Link to comment
Tetraneutron March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 On 3/23/2018 at 11:13 PM, sistermagpie said: It's also always seemed to me like Philip would be squirreling away money in Swiss bank accounts for at least Henry in case of disaster. I could just about imagine Philip pulling the trigger on Henry if he thought he couldn't trust Paige and Elizabeth not to use him or something. That's 100% the opposite of how Philip's been written. He loves his family. He hates his life but puts up with massive amounts of shit for them. The last thing he would so is hide money from them, ESPECIALLY because as a deep cover spy getting big foreign banks involved in his life would be GALACTICALLY DUMB. And he CERTAINLY doesn't hate his daughter. That's straight-up wishful thinking from the fandom, who for some reason insists on seeing Paige as a whiny teenage brat stereotype. Also, does anyone think the time jump is a big narrative cheat? The tension with Paige was always that as an American, she could never approve of what her parents do. Last season they showed her becoming comfortable with communism ideologically, and admiring her mother as a badass, but her parents were still hiding 99% of what they actually do. Now we're expected to believe she's comfortable with all the murder and honeytrapping? Same with Henry. A second-gen illegal getting into a fancy prep school is everything a Soviet true believer could dream of. But no one's talking about working him like they did Paige? The Center is just going to leave him alone? I know I complain about that all the time but it bugs me. If Henry went to that school he wouldn't be living the all-American dream, there would be some Tuan type deep under cover manipulating him into being friends with a Senator's kid. And P and E would be part of the plan, not cheering on his hockey games. 3 Link to comment
Erin9 March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 I have a lot of trepidation about how all of this is going to play out. I probably won’t like it honestly. But I’m curious nonetheless. But- for now- I really don’t like Paige being a spy. I don’t fully buy it either. I guess it’s Paige/Elizabeth vs Philip. Since he’ll be in the dark. And he thinks differently anyway. He’ll obviously somehow wind up out of retirement, but I don’t like this. Philip and Elizabeth not being a team is bad enough, but Paige/E being some kind of pseudo replacement is just dreadful. (I know it won’t be the same, but it’s close enough.) Poor Philip. Paige is all in....sigh....Elizabeth wins again. Seems to be the story of this show. It would be nice to really see Philip get a win or just get thrown a bone or something before this is done. Arkady bring back is great news though. Love him. 4 Link to comment
Chaos Theory March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 (edited) I am looking forward to watching this all play out like very few shows before. I am not sure how popular or unpopular my opinion is but I really like Paige and think she is one of a handful of teenage characters that have been truly written and acted well. Honestly I might put Holly Taylor on my list of young actors to keep my eye on. I am also looking forward to Elizabeth’s reaction to Glastnost. Of course she is someone who would find the concept offensive and paranoia of American interference of Russian affairs would kick in. While Philip would just be happy at the idea of being able to live in some versions of a peaceful American life. Edited March 27, 2018 by Chaos Theory 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 35 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said: That's 100% the opposite of how Philip's been written. He loves his family. He hates his life but puts up with massive amounts of shit for them. The last thing he would so is hide money from them, ESPECIALLY because as a deep cover spy getting big foreign banks involved in his life would be GALACTICALLY DUMB. And he CERTAINLY doesn't hate his daughter. That's straight-up wishful thinking from the fandom, who for some reason insists on seeing Paige as a whiny teenage brat stereotype. LOL! No, no. I wasn't saying he was hiding the money *from* his kids. I meant he was hiding the money *for* his kids--both of them. I specify it being for Henry *now* because if Paige is with the Centre she isn't on her own and Henry would be more vulnerable. Paige might very well take anything she was given and hand it over to the Centre like she did to Pastor Tim. So he might hesitate about that. My thought was purely about Philip being worried about socking stuff away in case of famine for his family, not stealing from them. Not because he hates anybody, least of all Paige. That said, neither Philip nor Elizabeth are shown having the kind of hoarding tendencies you'd think people who grew up that way would have, even if they tried not to go overboard to stand out. So yes, my thought had nothing to do with what was actually going on on the show *except* as a comment on how Elizabeth and Paige are now with the Centre and Philip and Henry are not and therefore Henry is on his own. Both Paige and Elizabeth seem to aspire to a Cause-first worldview. And I do think that it would make sense if Philip wanted to put some things in place in case something happened to him and Elizabeth so that he wouldn't just be leaving his kids with nothing. Though it doesn't seem like he has so far. I also don't think Paige is a whiny teenage brat stereotype. She has a personality I have very little respect for at this point, but she's not a stereotype. Me not respecting her doesn't mean she's not a developed character. My lack of respect isn't much connected to the whining. 39 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said: Also, does anyone think the time jump is a big narrative cheat? Yes, though to be honest I almost always feel that way about time jumps whatever the circumstances. It's unclear so far what kinds of things she's bringing Paige along on, especially since Paige herself isn't supposed to do any honeytrapping or murder. If she's bought a version of the USSR where they're the scrappy underdogs of US oppression who only act out of self-defense maybe it's easy for her to imagine her mother not doing anything too bad or something unless she's protecting herself. Paige is probably enthusiastically participating in any sugar-coating going on. Has Paige also adopted Elizabeth's views on glasnost? Or is she unaware of any conflict there? Is she much aware of it? 49 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said: A second-gen illegal getting into a fancy prep school is everything a Soviet true believer could dream of. But no one's talking about working him like they did Paige? See, this is one of the things that makes so little sense to me, and it's also why my mind starts to go to places like Henry needing protection even though so far on the show the Centre seems to have forgotten he exists. Everything about Henry says that he's on the fast track to the kind of life the Soviets would salivate over controlling, yet they seem to almost view it more the way Elizabeth does, on a purely emotional level. Like they're more interested in Elizabeth and Claudia getting to bond with a daughter mini-me than having access to the halls of power. Articles have said that Elizabeth is hoping Paige will get some important job, so it's weird to have Henry so blatantly on his way to one. They could have continued to write Henry as more of a slacker-genius (still valuable). Instead he's brilliant and charismatic and in an exclusive prep school. It doesn't seem like they've secretly tapped Elizabeth to start grooming Henry at all, but you'd think at some point everybody would wake up and realize that on paper they've got American Kim Philby potential here. The Centre even got that computer for the house because they saw it as important for the future and it was Henry that ran with it. I mainly wonder about it because it *doesn't* seem like they're hinting about any designs on him and I wonder why. 3 minutes ago, Erin9 said: But- for now- I really don’t like Paige being a spy. I don’t fully buy it either. I guess it’s Paige/Elizabeth vs Philip. Since he’ll be in the dark. And he thinks differently anyway. He’ll obviously somehow wind up out of retirement, but I don’t like this. Philip and Elizabeth not being a team is bad enough, but Paige/E being some kind of pseudo replacement is just dreadful. (I know it won’t be the same, but it’s close enough.) Poor Philip. Paige is all in....sigh....Elizabeth wins again. Seems to be the story of this show. It reminds me of season 3 when Elizabeth was pretending to be into the church while secretly trying to get Paige over to her side and sending weekly detailed reports to the Centre about her and Philip was being honest. It's also I think why I just can't think of it as so impossible that Paige could be a danger to him the same way Elizabeth was early on. It seems significant that Paige has never questioned that. That is, she might just be happy that Elizabeth was assessing her rather than feeling offended at being manipulated. She seems to honestly prefer a caring Big Brother to equal relationships, just like Elizabeth. And also maybe preferring connection through shared cause rather than connecting with different people. That seems pretty consistent with her. It does feel like Philip ought to have a win of some kind. He's the one that's always said the family comes first, but Elizabeth's won all of those conflicts and now the Centre has replaced the family. Dramatically it just seems nonsensical to have Elizabeth continue to steamroller over everything, no matter what ultimately happens. I mean, what other big pay offs are there for the family? Philip's already lived with the rejection and loss. Not much mystery about how that would be for him. They haven't been specific enough about Henry's relationships with anybody yet for that to have the same weight. And Paige doesn't seem to have the potential to suddenly choose family built up in her the way Elizabeth does. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said: I am looking forward to watching this all play out like very few shows before. I am not sure how popular or unpopular my opinion is but I really like Paige and think she is one of a handful of teenage characters that have been truly written and acted well. Honestly I might put Holly Taylor on my list of young actors to keep my eye on. I am also looking forward to Elizabeth’s reaction to Glastnost. Of course she is someone who would find the concept offensive and paranoia of American interference of Russian affairs would kick in. While Philip would just be happy at the idea of being able to live in some versions of a peaceful American life. Wow. I think the writing for Paige has been completely unbelievable, and it's the biggest stumbling block in the entire series for me. As for the actress? It's hard for me to tell, she may go on to do much better stuff, with a better directing team for her, and better writing. I noticed her eyebrows didn't move AT ALL in that spoof spoiler thing in the media thread, I remember wondering if she got botox or is learning to control the "eyebrows of doom" which, frankly, has been her main "emoting" face. Yeah, I'm glad we are at least getting to Glastnost, and we may go much further than that in flash forwards, who knows? 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: I have a lot of trepidation about how all of this is going to play out. I probably won’t like it honestly. But I’m curious nonetheless. But- for now- I really don’t like Paige being a spy. I don’t fully buy it either. I guess it’s Paige/Elizabeth vs Philip. Since he’ll be in the dark. And he thinks differently anyway. He’ll obviously somehow wind up out of retirement, but I don’t like this. Philip and Elizabeth not being a team is bad enough, but Paige/E being some kind of pseudo replacement is just dreadful. (I know it won’t be the same, but it’s close enough.) Poor Philip. Paige is all in....sigh....Elizabeth wins again. Seems to be the story of this show. It would be nice to really see Philip get a win or just get thrown a bone or something before this is done. Arkady bring back is great news though. Love him. I still don't see a "win" for Philip happening. I could be totally off base, but I keep thinking Philip will die protecting Liz/kids, and that will be a catalyst, one way or another, for Liz. Now, killed by a random, or because of an op? Is far less interesting story-wise than killed by Americans, OR killed by KGB, which seems, by far, to be the most interesting idea, as far as Liz and Paige's story/future/reactions. I'm hopeful about Arkady and Oleg being back. Actually, all of the spoilers so far have made me fairly happy. It looks like last season won't all be for nothing after all. 2 hours ago, Tetraneutron said: That's 100% the opposite of how Philip's been written. He loves his family. He hates his life but puts up with massive amounts of shit for them. The last thing he would so is hide money from them, ESPECIALLY because as a deep cover spy getting big foreign banks involved in his life would be GALACTICALLY DUMB. And he CERTAINLY doesn't hate his daughter. That's straight-up wishful thinking from the fandom, who for some reason insists on seeing Paige as a whiny teenage brat stereotype. Also, does anyone think the time jump is a big narrative cheat? The tension with Paige was always that as an American, she could never approve of what her parents do. Last season they showed her becoming comfortable with communism ideologically, and admiring her mother as a badass, but her parents were still hiding 99% of what they actually do. Now we're expected to believe she's comfortable with all the murder and honeytrapping? Same with Henry. A second-gen illegal getting into a fancy prep school is everything a Soviet true believer could dream of. But no one's talking about working him like they did Paige? The Center is just going to leave him alone? I know I complain about that all the time but it bugs me. If Henry went to that school he wouldn't be living the all-American dream, there would be some Tuan type deep under cover manipulating him into being friends with a Senator's kid. And P and E would be part of the plan, not cheering on his hockey games. Honestly, I think most serious, and especially undercover, spies have "go bags" hidden somewhere, usually in a storage facility. ID's, cash, weapons, disguises, etc. It doesn't really matter if they work for MI5, KGB, CIA, FBI, or any other country's intelligence service. I've heard and read many cold war spies talk about EXACTLY that. To not have one? Would be stupid writing in my opinion, but the mere fact we haven't seen it on the show? No biggie. Actually, we kind of have seen something like that for them, that place they change clothes before returning home after ops. BUT, that is obviously a KGB site. In real life, I think, at least Philip, would have a private one. Liz is all in, completely trusting KGB, so maybe not her. The only reason the time jump kind of bothers me is that we suffered through a dull, stupid, time wasting season last year, where obviously, the key points that may play into THIS season, could have been covered in the time-equivalent of 1 episode. I don't need to watch people dig holes endlessly, or any of the other numerous time wasted scenes we had last season. If they were going to jump time? WHY NOT SHOW us some of that time passing last year? Boo, Hiss. Leaving Henry out, except for a few mentions, and rare scenes, bothers me SO much. He's, IMO, a far better and more subtle actor, and everything about the writing for Henry screams "HEY, OVER HERE! PERFECT SPY MATERIAL!" Instead the focus on Paige. Which again, makes me think this end-story will be ALL about Elizabeth. 55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: LOL! No, no. I wasn't saying he was hiding the money *from* his kids. I meant he was hiding the money *for* his kids--both of them. I specify it being for Henry *now* because if Paige is with the Centre she isn't on her own and Henry would be more vulnerable. Paige might very well take anything she was given and hand it over to the Centre like she did to Pastor Tim. So he might hesitate about that. My thought was purely about Philip being worried about socking stuff away in case of famine for his family, not stealing from them. Not because he hates anybody, least of all Paige. That said, neither Philip nor Elizabeth are shown having the kind of hoarding tendencies you'd think people who grew up that way would have, even if they tried not to go overboard to stand out. So yes, my thought had nothing to do with what was actually going on on the show *except* as a comment on how Elizabeth and Paige are now with the Centre and Philip and Henry are not and therefore Henry is on his own. Both Paige and Elizabeth seem to aspire to a Cause-first worldview. And I do think that it would make sense if Philip wanted to put some things in place in case something happened to him and Elizabeth so that he wouldn't just be leaving his kids with nothing. Though it doesn't seem like he has so far. I also don't think Paige is a whiny teenage brat stereotype. She has a personality I have very little respect for at this point, but she's not a stereotype. Me not respecting her doesn't mean she's not a developed character. My lack of respect isn't much connected to the whining. Yes, though to be honest I almost always feel that way about time jumps whatever the circumstances. It's unclear so far what kinds of things she's bringing Paige along on, especially since Paige herself isn't supposed to do any honeytrapping or murder. If she's bought a version of the USSR where they're the scrappy underdogs of US oppression who only act out of self-defense maybe it's easy for her to imagine her mother not doing anything too bad or something unless she's protecting herself. Paige is probably enthusiastically participating in any sugar-coating going on. Has Paige also adopted Elizabeth's views on glasnost? Or is she unaware of any conflict there? Is she much aware of it? See, this is one of the things that makes so little sense to me, and it's also why my mind starts to go to places like Henry needing protection even though so far on the show the Centre seems to have forgotten he exists. Everything about Henry says that he's on the fast track to the kind of life the Soviets would salivate over controlling, yet they seem to almost view it more the way Elizabeth does, on a purely emotional level. Like they're more interested in Elizabeth and Claudia getting to bond with a daughter mini-me than having access to the halls of power. Articles have said that Elizabeth is hoping Paige will get some important job, so it's weird to have Henry so blatantly on his way to one. They could have continued to write Henry as more of a slacker-genius (still valuable). Instead he's brilliant and charismatic and in an exclusive prep school. It doesn't seem like they've secretly tapped Elizabeth to start grooming Henry at all, but you'd think at some point everybody would wake up and realize that on paper they've got American Kim Philby potential here. The Centre even got that computer for the house because they saw it as important for the future and it was Henry that ran with it. I mainly wonder about it because it *doesn't* seem like they're hinting about any designs on him and I wonder why. It reminds me of season 3 when Elizabeth was pretending to be into the church while secretly trying to get Paige over to her side and sending weekly detailed reports to the Centre about her and Philip was being honest. It's also I think why I just can't think of it as so impossible that Paige could be a danger to him the same way Elizabeth was early on. It seems significant that Paige has never questioned that. That is, she might just be happy that Elizabeth was assessing her rather than feeling offended at being manipulated. She seems to honestly prefer a caring Big Brother to equal relationships, just like Elizabeth. And also maybe preferring connection through shared cause rather than connecting with different people. That seems pretty consistent with her. It does feel like Philip ought to have a win of some kind. He's the one that's always said the family comes first, but Elizabeth's won all of those conflicts and now the Centre has replaced the family. Dramatically it just seems nonsensical to have Elizabeth continue to steamroller over everything, no matter what ultimately happens. I mean, what other big pay offs are there for the family? Philip's already lived with the rejection and loss. Not much mystery about how that would be for him. They haven't been specific enough about Henry's relationships with anybody yet for that to have the same weight. And Paige doesn't seem to have the potential to suddenly choose family built up in her the way Elizabeth does. I agree with almost every word of this, but I also kind of answered most of it already in this post, or others. I don't agree with the bolded part though, because that would be too cool. I'd LIKE Philip to "win" but I don't think he will. That's why I keep thinking Philip dies protecting Liz or Paige, since Henry apparently doesn't matter at all to the writers. What could be a bigger BOOM for Liz than losing Philip? What could make the largest turning point or lightning bolt realization for Liz? I supposed Paige dying would be the only other thing, and that could be OK as well. However, this show has focused on marriage more than family, so I still think Philip will pay for Liz's beliefs/actions somehow, causing her a crisis and awareness that could play out in several dramatically interesting ways. I think this story is all about Liz, at least when it comes to the final resolve. Liz faces that either her daughter or Philip die, because of her ideology and focus on her "cause" rather than her family? It makes for an interesting and compelling end, and we ALL know that Keri Russell could rock those scenes, whatever they are. I can practically picture the emotions, shock, devastation, guilt, fury, doubt, confusion, resolve (either way, to get even or to go on an even stronger communist) playing across her face and evident in her body. Now, Rhys could also act the hell out of it, losing Liz, if she were the one to die. BUT, it's far less compelling, since he's already in the middle as far as the two countries, and they are limiting his interactions with both of his kids. If that happened, I think it would be too much of a "Bonny and Clyde" ending, and I just don't see that happening. I feel like it's going to be Liz facing the consequences of all of her beliefs, and the choice about her future, with Glasnost looming and either Paige or Philip sacrificed. The wild card here is Philip's other son, but I think he's just back to show the effects of the collapsing USSR from the "average soviet" side, not really to impact or interact with Philip (though that would be great.) I hope we seen Gabe too. Edited March 27, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Chaos Theory March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Wow. I think the writing for Paige has been completely unbelievable, and it's the biggest stumbling block in the entire series for me. As for the actress? It's hard for me to tell, she may go on to do much better stuff, with a better directing team for her, and better writing. I noticed her eyebrows didn't move AT ALL in that spoof spoiler thing in the media thread, I remember wondering if she got botox or is learning to control the "eyebrows of doom" which, frankly, has been her main "emoting" face. Yeah, I'm glad we are at least getting to Glastnost, and we may go much further than that in flash forwards, who knows? As much as I enjoy reading your posts we tend to disagree about a lot of things. Paige is one of the big ones. I always felt this show was a family drama that masked itself in a spy drama. A double and triple agent if you will. One of the most fascinating stories was the slow burn recruitment of Paige. A lot of shows would have been tempted to fast burn it in a season but this show took three seasons to recruit her and they did it in such a round about way that I found it utterly believable. Yes this is how you would recruit your teenage kid who already had their own idea of how the world worked. Plus I think we also disagree on the talent of Holly Taylor who has more then grown into an exceptionally difficult part. But like I said that doesn’t mean i don’t like reading apposing points of view. I find them just as fascinating. I hope we see Martha before the show ends. Edited March 27, 2018 by Chaos Theory 3 Link to comment
Umbelina March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said: As much as I enjoy reading your posts we tend to disagree about a lot of things. Paige is one of the big ones. I always felt this show was a family drama that masked itself in a spy drama. A double and triple agent if you will. One of the most fascinating stories was the slow burn recruitment of Paige. A lot of shows would have been tempted to fast burn it in a season but this show took three seasons to recruit her and they did it in such a round about way that I found it utterly believable. Yes this is how you would recruit your teenage kid who already had their own idea of how the world worked. Plus I think we also disagree on the talent of Holly Taylor who has more then grown into an exceptionally difficult part. But like I said that doesn’t mean i don’t like reading apposing points of view. I find them just as fascinating. I hope we see Martha before the show ends. I agree about the posts, if I only wanted to read my opinion, or view of things, I wouldn't bother being on a message board! I'm very glad someone liked Paige's story. I obviously didn't. She feels like a plot point to me, not a real teenager, and they keep TELLING me how smart and capable she is, but I don't SEE that. She seems like someone who flits from one belief to the next, first church, now Soviet, while doing very little research of her own into either. She gets in a car with a stranger, and needs to be saved by her very young, obviously smarter and more capable brother Henry. She has no friends, no real bonds with anyone outside her family, no normal teenage hormones raging (and no, I don't count Stan's kid here, another "plot point.") Her recruitment, right on the heels of another recruit murdering his entire family, also doesn't make sense to me, even for the increasingly desperate USSR, but that is more believable than the rest of her story. She's an idiot, blabbed to the pastor at the very first possible chance, betraying her mom and dad, and putting the boring pastor in mortal jeopardy. Hell! Only a stupid stupid teenager would be that naive and stupid and impetuous. When you have been flat out told that it could KILL your parents? I just never bought any of it. Again though, I blame the writing and directing more than the unfortunate actress. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, Umbelina said: That's why I keep thinking Philip dies protecting Liz or Paige, since Henry apparently doesn't matter at all to the writers. Weirdly, that's one of the things I was considering a potential win. Sure he wouldn't be around to enjoy it, but if it made the point to Elizabeth that she chose poorly it would work for me. She's always just taken it for granted that Philip will be there. She's never had a second where she's worried about his safety (he's worried about hers several times). If his death is something she and/or indirectly caused, even better. Because as you say, it all comes down to Elizabeth. Her choices are the thing that got them where they are. And not just passive choices like Philip's but active ones. Ones that she's never examined. Though at the same time I'm glad there seems to be a storyline where Philip is actively working for the reformers in Russia--hopefully they won't make it all about Elizabeth, as if he's only there to protect her in some way instead of actually thinking he's doing the right thing (the man has family in Russia!). Frankly it seems from what they've said the Oleg/Arkady stuff is definitely people feeling they have to do the right thing. It's like a classic western where the retired gunslingers who would happily just work a farm has to strap on the holster again to protect the innocent. 24 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Now, Rhys could also act the hell out of it, losing Liz, if she were the one to die. BUT, it's far less compelling, since he's already in the middle as far as the two countries, and they are limiting his interactions with both of his kids. If that happened, I think it would be too much of a "Bonny and Clyde" ending, and I just don't see that happening. Yeah, I feel like we just already know what that would look like. He's faced the possibility before. Not so far as thinking she's dead, but he's obviously very aware that she dreams of a heroic death. He seems fatalistic about it. If she died he'd go on, however unhappily. If you don't have zharkoye you eat moldy sawdust bread and don't romanticize it. In fact, that's another reason why it seems like the drama would lie with Elizabeth. For her, all she has is the cause and her family. And out of the family Philip is the one who cares about *her* without the cause. The one person who doesn't think her best quality is being strong and determined and loyal to the cause. If she loses Philip she's really killed herself in ways he wouldn't. With Paige she's again chosen to be the super strong loyalist who has no weakness. 36 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Leaving Henry out, except for a few mentions, and rare scenes, bothers me SO much. He's, IMO, a far better and more subtle actor, and everything about the writing for Henry screams "HEY, OVER HERE! PERFECT SPY MATERIAL!" Instead the focus on Paige. 31 minutes ago, Umbelina said: The wild card here is Philip's other son, but I think he's just back to show the effects of the collapsing USSR from the "average soviet" side, not really to impact or interact with Philip (though that would be great.) I hope we seen Gabe too. Yeah, I've given up hoping we might have a story about Philip's past and his living family in a way actually connected to him. But then, I was shocked when they actually said Philip and Henry are supposed to be close now. Though even there I'm not counting on any meaningful interaction. It might be a show that's secondarily about family (right after being about marriage) but it really does seem like "family" came to mean "Elizabeth and her daughter" early on. They clearly made a decision that Elizabeth's individual journey mattered in specific ways Philip's didn't so we needed her backstory, her flashbacks, and a detailed relationship with her daughter. With Philip he more just reacts to things and his backstory comes as random facts when they want them for plot points or moments in the present that are subtly reflected in his equally-elusive son. Elizabeth has been pretty obsessed with bonding with Paige from season 1. Philip is devoted to her even while she often doesn't seem to respect him. Henry and Philip have moments where they like each other in a general way. Elizabeth maybe takes him for granted too. That said, it would be great if they surprised me and all these little Henry/Philip things turned out to be leading up to something. They cast at least one Russian-speaking kid to play l'il Phil without giving him any lines! 2 minutes ago, Umbelina said: She seems like someone who flits from one belief to the next, first church, now Soviet, while doing very little research of her own into either. I would really love it if they actually used this fact, though I don't know that they'd have enough time for the Cause to disappoint her and for her to meet some other even more confident leader. Because right now they've focused so much on how Paige is like Elizabeth but it'd be even more interesting, imo, to see how she isn't. But they might. Two potential sources of conflict with the story are Paige either seeing things that *do* make her question her mother the way she questioned Pastor Tim. Or maybe Elizabeth has doubts that make her need to hide from Paige and confide in Philip instead. That's always been her central conflict after all, right? Philip represents the parts of herself that aren't based on fear. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 (edited) I agree! I also hope we see something like that from Paige, but I doubt it. I just can't buy that she hasn't even read the Gulag Archipelago at her age. I had. Or any other accounts of Soviet Russia? Maybe the writers will surprise us, I actually think someone on The Americans does pay attention to review and some message boards, to see if what they think they are showing is what we are seeing. If they have, they may clean a few things up in the finale season. I DO think we will see a bit more of Philip's past, at least I hope so. BTW, in all my Gulag research over the winter, which began with Philip's camp, and then moved all over Russia, and beyond, I've learned a lot. In many Gulag situations the guards are much better fed than most Russians at that time. Boots and other items of clothing were routinely stolen from prisoners right when they arrived and were striped naked. However the ones his dad had in that scene were bloody right? Of course, boots and other leather were also cooked into soups and eaten. He could also be part of the execution squads that killed people right off the train. How can they possibly let nothing come of all the flashbacks so far? I think we will learn more. An aside, after learning how many hundreds of Gulags existed, I was playing around on Google Earth. Although Putin is in the process of removing all evidence of the realities of Stalin-era Gulags, there are still many standing buildings around. I found that if you follow the railroad tracks in remote areas you can find the old camps, though photos are rather rare, but often come in those little "photo spheres" where some are defaced with both Russian and English words, such as "FUCK!" and "BLOOD!" and "DEATH" and others are being used as wood sheds, or simply completely deserted as towns grow further from the mines, or lumber camps origins. Gulags close to what are now more developed areas are gone completely. Either way, Philip grew up in a place of brutality and death, all kinds of death, not just the two kids he personally killed. Has he buried a lot of that in deep memory, and has THAT part been what's really driven him to EST? I think so. I've read and watched *youtube, etc. accounts of the children in those Gulags, most are of them were children of prisoners, but one or two of guards or NKVD. They were well aware of what happened there. Specifically, they almost all watched the prisoner trains arrive, observed starving skeletons of prisoners being marched into and from the forests/mines for their 12 hours shifts, heard the gunshots of the mass executions, and were starving themselves, though not as completely as the prisoners. There is no way Philip would be completely oblivious to the starvation, screams, devastation, and horror of his "town." He would see terrible things, and while perhaps too young to completely process them a that time? On some level, he already knew, but then again, how would he know that "life" wasn't normal, it was all he did know. Now though? He is finally knowing, EST, and Gabe telling him confirming what he may on some level have expected? That he was raised in a Gulag. ETA After watching and reading all of that about Gulags? I SO understand Philip's attraction to EST, I just wish the writers had elaborated on it sooner, but maybe the pay off in the final season will be worth the tidbits, maybe we are only getting tidbits because that's all Philip has allowed himself to "remember" yet? Edited March 27, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: I've read and watched *youtube, etc. accounts of the children in those Gulags, most are of them were children of prisoners, but one or two of guards or NKVD. They were well aware of what happened there. There is no way Philip would be completely oblivious to the starvation, screams, devastation, and horror of his "town." He would see terrible things, and while perhaps too young to completely process them? On some level, he already knew, but then again, how would he know that "life" wasn't normal, it was all he did know. Now though? He is finally knowing, EST, and Gabe telling him (confirming what he may on some level have expected?) that he was raised in a Gulag. Answering in the Philip thread... Link to comment
Erin9 March 27, 2018 Share March 27, 2018 The scenario of Philip dying because of Elizabeth’s rigid belief systems makes some sense to me. I don’t like it at all, but I could see it happening. It would rock her world. I’ve wondered how Elizabeth could live in a post soviet world. She’s so extreme. And no where near as adaptable as Philip. This could be it. Something drastic happens that forces her mindset to shift. Maybe recruiting Paige will backfire on her after all. That would be interesting. Well, maybe. Lol I do hope they do a deep dive into Philip’s childhood before this is over. After last season’s crumbs, I really have no expectations though. Hope, but zero expectations. 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 28, 2018 Share March 28, 2018 17 hours ago, Erin9 said: Maybe recruiting Paige will backfire on her after all. That would be interesting. Well, maybe. Lol I thought it was funny reading the little blurb about the third episode where P&E are fighting over how to handle Paige after some disastrous operation because I just thought wow, the more things change... Independent Paige is still the focus of her parents' furiously passionate parenting even while away at college--and probably for her whole life, which is just the way she likes it. Meanwhile Henry figured out a forward direction for himself and seems to be making a life for himself too. One that the first look seems to suggest includes a good mature relationship with his father. (Even if it'll be snuffed out in one way or another through spy games.) It does make me wonder about Henry and Elizabeth. I mean, there's no reason there has to be conflict there or anything, but she's SO obsessed with Paige as an extension of herself and it seems like she's never really been able to understand Henry (even back in season 1 she could fight with Paige over the separation but couldn't reach Henry at all). But at the same time she always seems pretty confident about her hold on him. They could go the way of Henry simply not asking much of Elizabeth so there's no problem, or it actually mattering. Last season he did have that line about both his parents thinking Paige was the smart one so it's not like he doesn't notice any difference. I mean, it seems like the conflict between Philip and Paige is part of the story, but that conflict doesn't come out of Philip not making a lot of effort or just not understanding her at all. In past seasons both P&E for the most part mostly just reacted to Henry with amused fondness and affectionate indulgence but he's a teenager now and away from home and it seems like we're being told that there's a positive change between father/son here. (Plus even in the past they did establish a strong foundation between the two of them--as little Henry as there's been there's more Henry/Philip than Henry/Elizabeth.) Link to comment
scrb March 29, 2018 Share March 29, 2018 Story arc for the final season is intriguing, from the standpoint of history. I'm sure there was resistance to Gorby's reforms and detente with the West. But I don't know if they were ready to overthrow Gorbachev, though he didn't last too long. One narrative about the fall of the Soviet Union was that it was economically destroyed by the arms race, hence why they were willing to sign onto all the treaties to reduce the nuclear arsenals of both sides. So it seems unlikely that they were working on some advanced retaliatory scheme to wipe out the US. But Elizabeth didn't turn the general away in Mexico City, so she implicitly signed on with those who wanted to get rid of Gorbachev. So we really didn't have to hear her opinion about the arms limitation talks or Gorbachev's reforms. Link to comment
Umbelina March 29, 2018 Share March 29, 2018 (edited) Well, we know for sure Paige doesn't die. She just gave it away in the Media thread interview. She's also stays in America, because "in 10 years" she might be Monica Lewinski or a Senator, but a real American senator or a spy for the USSR senator?" She's a ditz even off the show. I'm sure the writers are thrilled she dropped that spoiler. At least she mentions and tries to justify why Paige never had friends, and still doesn't. And no, I don't buy that, at least not the way the writers TELL us she's been. She's such a weird character, antisocial, doesn't do independent research, doesn't break away from parents (which is another basic biology thing.) She's the type you would worry about in real life, as perfectly capable of doing something disastrous. Edited March 29, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Erin9 March 29, 2018 Share March 29, 2018 I never thought Paige dying was highly likely, but she really shouldn’t have given that away imo. Actually of all the ways i’ve thought of this show ending, that was never a possibility to me. Admittedly what happens to Paige isn’t of overwhelming interest to me. I don’t hate her. But i’m not emotionally invested in her. I’m invested in Philip, Elizabeth and Oleg primarily. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina March 29, 2018 Share March 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: I never thought Paige dying was highly likely, but she really shouldn’t have given that away imo. Actually of all the ways i’ve thought of this show ending, that was never a possibility to me. Admittedly what happens to Paige isn’t of overwhelming interest to me. I don’t hate her. But i’m not emotionally invested in her. I’m invested in Philip, Elizabeth and Oleg primarily. Not just that she's alive, but that she's alive and living in the USA "ten years from the show ending." So cross off the option of the whole family moving to Russia. Edited March 29, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Ellaria March 30, 2018 Share March 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: Not just that she's alive, but that she's alive and living in the USA "ten years from the show ending." So cross off the option of the whole family moving to Russia. I couldn't get past the first five minutes of that interview. I'm sure that Holly is a lovely young woman but she isn't particularly interesting. Honestly, was the whole family moving to Russia ever a likely option or was it more of a fantasy for P&E? Either one of them - or both - will not survive the series. I always felt that Paige and Henry would survive but with different impressions of childhood and their parents. Henry would be the typical American success story and remain oblivious to the truth about his parents. Paige would be...well, Paige. Right now, I am worried about Oleg because I have the nasty feeling that he will never see his wife and son again. Link to comment
Umbelina March 30, 2018 Share March 30, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said: I couldn't get past the first five minutes of that interview. I'm sure that Holly is a lovely young woman but she isn't particularly interesting. Honestly, was the whole family moving to Russia ever a likely option or was it more of a fantasy for P&E? Either one of them - or both - will not survive the series. I always felt that Paige and Henry would survive but with different impressions of childhood and their parents. Henry would be the typical American success story and remain oblivious to the truth about his parents. Paige would be...well, Paige. Right now, I am worried about Oleg because I have the nasty feeling that he will never see his wife and son again. There was a chance that they could have repatriated back to the USSR, but yeah, I always doubted that. Oleg, Philip, Arkady, Elizabeth, and even Granny are all in bad positions. They are caught up in the "war" between the KGB and the leader of the USSR. That's not a place I'd want to be, ever. I hoped for a happy ending for Oleg as well, but his situation is pretty precarious, and was, even before this secret mission, and he's stuck in the USSR even more now, a wife, a son, a father and a mother? Do I have this right? Gorbachev wants to give up Dead Hand if it will stop Star Wars. The KGB doesn't want to give up Dead Hand even if that means taking out Gorbachev. Arkady and now Oleg and Philip all want to know what Elizabeth's mission is, and if it's to stop them from giving up Dead Hand, to stop her from succeeding. Granny got orders from the KGB that's against Gorbachev, to stop the forfeiture of Dead Hand. Does Granny know the KGB is thwarting leader of the USSR? Is she in the dark about that? So Arkady is siding with the leader of his country over his colleagues at the KGB? Do I have that right? I may pose the same question in the episode thread. They certainly managed to conveniently skip over how Oleg got permission to go to the USA. He barely got away without being shot before, WHY would they allow him a trip to the USA just a couple of years later? Frankly, skipping over the most difficult part of this set up pisses me off. Lazy writing. Treason treason everywhere, and it's not just for Paige anymore. Most of our favorite spies are involved. Edited March 30, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
scrb March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 (edited) Found this article from 1987 on the internal opposition to Gorbachev's reforms. https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/28/world/gorbachev-opposition-how-serious.html Specifically, there wasn't any organized opposition. Gorbachev made the case apparently that they couldn't continue with the way things were, that they had to improve their economy. The bread lines and other food shortages probably helped his case a lot. So by 1987, when season 6 begins, reforms were under way and Gorbachev had consolidated most of his power: Quote Most Western diplomats and Soviet officials agree that the opposition, for the moment, poses more of a burden than a threat for Mr. Gorbachev. They said the people and institutions that he has alienated are resisting his policies but lack an alternative program and do not constitute a coherent opposition movement. Nor has another political figure emerged in the party leadership to challenge Mr. Gorbachev's position and provide a rallying point for opponents, they say. That could change, and Western analysts here have started hedging their bets a bit about Mr. Gorbachev's long-term political survival. Mr. Gorbachev appears to be able to command a clear majority of support in the Politburo, which makes policy, and in the Secretariat, which carries it out, according to Western diplomats and Soviet officials. They said he still faced sizable pockets of resistance in the Central Committee, with more widespread resistance down through the middle and lower levels of the Communist Party and Government. The opposition is mostly about people who would lose privilege but they've not organized themselves to stop or resist Gorbachev's policies: Quote But more often Mr. Gorbachev and others talk in general about the opposition. Gennadi I. Gerasimov, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, when asked at a news conference Thursday about the extent of the opposition, replied, ''The opposition that exists is not in the Politburo.'' ''This is a struggle between the old and the new, and the new is going to win,'' he said. Georgi A. Arbatov, the director of the U.S.A. and Canada Institute, said in a recent interview, ''The resistance to Gorbachev is misunderstood in the West as organized opposition.'' Three Categories of Opposition He said the resistance really fell into three categories. ''There is the force of inertia, millions of people, not a majority but a substantial minority, who don't want to sweat, who don't want to work any harder,'' he said. The second layer, Mr. Arbatov said, is the bureaucracy, and the third consists of ministers, officials, workers, plant managers and others whose jobs have become redundant. So an actual plot to overthrow Gorbachev seems unlikely, unless those who contacted Elizabeth represented most of the military, which also seems unlikely since Gorbachev controlled the Politburo and the Secretariat. Gorbachev wouldn't have gotten as far as he did if the Soviet ruling establishment didn't finally agree that they couldn't continue on their previous course, which ruined their economy. So any faction which would try to continue the arms race seems unlikely to have much support. If the KGB was full of people like Putin, who either opposed at the time or came to oppose the the dissolution of the USSR, they certainly didn't try to act on it. In any event, a coup probably wouldn't have involved the illegals. But I'm not complaining about the arc that they laid out for this season. Just that it seems to be an alternate history of how things went down. Edited March 31, 2018 by scrb 2 Link to comment
SusanSunflower March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 or it's a tiny enough (and unsuccessful) plot that it was successfully covered up ... fictional or rumored to be true. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 (edited) Yeah, I seriously doubt the KGB divulged everything about a foiled coup. Edited March 31, 2018 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
crgirl412 March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 I think that in every country at any given time, there is at least one group of people thinking of-even planning- a way to overthrow the government. I think our human nature gives evidence that this is possible. Link to comment
sistermagpie March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 1 hour ago, scrb said: If the KGB was full of people like Putin, who either opposed at the time or came to oppose the the dissolution of the USSR, they certainly didn't try to act on it. In any event, a coup probably wouldn't have involved the illegals. But even as set up on the show this isn't an organized opposition. Quite the opposite--it's a little conspiracy of people in key positions who know about this Dead Hand thing and are willing to get rid of Gorbachev over it. Getting rid of him could mean murder or kidnapping or whatever. Even the actual coup, iirc, wasn't very well-organized. It's wonderfully ironic if a significant motivation of this side is people protecting their privilege--the exact opposite of what Elizabeth would say she's protecting. Elizabeth associates "old" with the original pure ideas of the revolution and her youth. But old really also means entrenched corruption and people amassing power and not wanting to give it up. She wants to change the world, but she's actually on the side of protecting the status quo. 3 Link to comment
SusanSunflower March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 Perhaps not intentionally, but this does mirror a "deep state" coup vigorously defending the status quo (at least wrt defense and MAD), perhaps not actually extending into other policies. Link to comment
Umbelina March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 One other point, and I don't feel like researching it, but by all means feel free. The writers here don't really pull historical stories out of their asses. They are very careful to stick to the truth, so if they say the KGB was willing to assassinate Gorbachev? I believe them, hopefully we will learn more about how and why the plot failed, in dramatic fashion with our characters all at cross purposes here. Some article written in 1987 about Soviets has very little credibility. Link to comment
sistermagpie March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Umbelina said: The writers here don't really pull historical stories out of their asses. They are very careful to stick to the truth, so if they say the KGB was willing to assassinate Gorbachev? I believe them, hopefully we will learn more about how and why the plot failed, in dramatic fashion with our characters all at cross purposes here. Well, there was eventually a coup where they snatched Gorbachev so I'd think that alone is enough of a reason to imagine something like this. Whether or not there was anything like this going on regarding the summit etc., the different factions seem definitely grounded in reality. Like the Colonel story about Star Wars in S1, for instance. Link to comment
Umbelina March 31, 2018 Share March 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Well, there was eventually a coup where they snatched Gorbachev so I'd think that alone is enough of a reason to imagine something like this. Whether or not there was anything like this going on regarding the summit etc., the different factions seem definitely grounded in reality. Like the Colonel story about Star Wars in S1, for instance. Lots of information has been released since 1987, and there is a former CIA dude co-writing this show, so I tend to think it's true, or very likely true. They are so super careful about even checking to ensure the right devices are used, I can't imagine they pulled this story out of thin air. Link to comment
sistermagpie April 1, 2018 Share April 1, 2018 Just saw a preview for next week (6x2 Tchaikovsky) where Paige is asking Elizabeth whether "our people" ever use sex to get information. Then there's a thing where someone's being handed a pass. Probably a visitor's pass. It has a big red V on it. I took it as a joke hint that Paige was maybe losing the V-card, or at least there was something like that going on. The fact that she's asking this of Elizabeth indicates that no, she's still pretty green about the kind of things Elizabeth does. Probably even if she gets told they use sex it won't necessarily mean she knows her parents do. But anyway, I thought the V-card had to be meant as a joke in the preview saying we're definitely getting a story where Paige is with some guy and thinking about mixing it with spying because he's an intern. Either she actually likes him and wonders if she should still spy on him, or she's using the idea that she's spying to give herself a reason to sleep with him or whatever. The ep description of the ep after that refers to a disastrous operation and Paige so I can't help but hope whatever she tries to do is the disaster. Though it's just as likely Elizabeth commits mass murder and Philip actually knows about it and they make it all about Paige or something. Link to comment
Erin9 April 13, 2018 Share April 13, 2018 I’m super excited already. Philip said years ago that things would change with Paige. It wouldn’t be that simple. And here we go. I’m so looking forward to seeing Philip/Oleg. You have no idea. And we finally get the importance of Sofia and Gennadi. Stan is so close. 1 Link to comment
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