Rene Ramirez: Wild Dog

[raven]

Discuss all things Rene here!

[statsgirl]

Is it bad of me that I was hoping he would be gone before he got his own thread?

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, I have no desire to go back and double check, especially for a WD thing.  I know for sure he had the moment of waffling before he did get kidnapped but I would have said he'd missed some meeting altogether earlier.  Maybe it was way back when it was Curtis trying to set up meetings with a lawyer to help him get Zoe back.  Then Rene got his job at the Mayor's office and Lance picked up the reunite him with his daughter ball and after he was kidnapped, Oliver stepped in for the hail Mary (forgive the sports metaphor, I'm from MN.  I have football on the brains today)

Even with Rene not flaking that final time, up until this year it's been everyone else doing the heavy lifting with his case and dragging him back to reconnecting to Zoe.  It makes his devotion to his daughter just a bit hard to really feel and sympathize with.  

 

2 hours ago, kes0704 said:

This is why I’m having trouble with the writers using his daughter as the primary justification for why he turned Oliver over to the FBI. He spent part of S5 dodging even having to see her and multiple people had to push him into stepping up and taking  responsibility for her again.

Is it a writing fail, is it a case of them hoping the audience isn’t paying attention to the details, is it just tone deaf? Who knows ??‍♀️.

 

36 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I believe he just never called Curtis's lawyer friend. (Oh look, Curtis gets to have non-vigilante friends.) I had forgotten that Curtis also tried to help him get Zoe back. Yeah, I really believe Rene's dedication to his daughter. 

So Curtis, Quentin and Oliver all  had to push Rene to get his daughter back, and Oliver give him a good job so he would look like a viable parent to children's services, and he still feelse justified in throwing Oliver under the bus and in jail away from his family.

Add to that that he didn't even want to be a vigilante until he saw the Green Arrow on TV, and you have someone I wouldn't even want on my team much less leading it.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Is it bad of me that I was hoping he would be gone before he got his own thread?

 

 

 

 

This.  If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

Let's see, what can we say about Rene?  

Suck in the beginning and sucks at the end.  (And IMO sucked in the middle but that micht have just been me)

[Primal Slayer]

So now that he is jobless and has a kid to look after....how is Rene gonna be making his money? Is he drawing unemployment? 

[BkWurm1]

Maybe he's been skimming from the many warehouses they visit.  Not all have been empty.

[TrueMyth]

I know others warmed to Rene towards the end of last season and the beginning of this one, but I've never liked him. I just haven't seen him really care about anyone.  He does put himself on the line in the field, but that mostly reads as recklessness to me.

I also don't understand the arrangement he cut with the FBI.  Sure, I could see him earning some kind of immunity against prosecution for his previous acts, and maybe continuing so until they were able to disclose him as the informant so as not to tip off Oliver, but anything after that should be a violation of the Vigilante Bill at least, right? I mean, is he not identified as Wild Dog in court documents? If so, why would Dinah of all people still be running around with him? Curtis, I could see being just dumbly loyal enough, but Dinah should know how courts and laws work: particularly laws that cover illicit deeds done in the name of taking down a bigger criminal, since, you know IT IS WHAT SHE DID FOR YEARS AND YEARS, and she has the bo staff to prove it! Did Rene negotiate immunity for everyone but Oliver? Is that even possible?

And Rene was under medical care for at least a day after coming at Oliver with an ax, right? Why didn't Curtis or Dinah do anything to reach out to Zoe? They wanted us to think there was a chance he could die, right? Does she even know what her father is doing with his time? Why was she not more worried when Curtis showed up looking pained after the babysitter peaced-out? This is the girl who couldn't boil soup by herself two years ago, right?

I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but it is all just so frustrating. I'm really hoping to hear good news about him leaving the show soon, but I suspect he's just taking a few episodes off to offset the budget of bringing Roy back for a few episodes.

[Morrigan2575]

I liked Rene last season (one of the few). I liked him in 6A, I even understood his actions in 609 and felt a bit of mitigating sympathy for him. I didn't approve of what he did but, I understood his actions from both a character and story standpoint and, for me that's enough.

I just need to understand why on either a mental or emotional level.  If I get that, I'm happy.

What I don't understand (mentally/emotionally) and where Arrow failed miserably in this whole Civil War storyline is that Arrow seems to have forgotten the entire reason for the split.

They spent 611-614 focusing on the what (civil war) and completely forgot the why (Rene's betrayal). So now, we get Rene repeatedly rebuffing OTA (this changes nothing Hoss) but, no push back from OTA or anyone acknowledging this is ALL on Rene.

If Rene didn't betray Oliver than, OTA wouldn't have tracked NTA and we wouldn't have this stupid civil war.

Ironically in 609 and, even 610 I felt sympathy for Rene, he was the only one of the noobs I felt had a logical reason for his actions AND seemed to feel guilt/regret (609 and 610 especially). However, they tossed that out the window at the very end of 610 where the Noobs turned into petulant brats.

From 610 on, I've pretty much hated all of the Noobs. What's worse is the show just erased the whole Rene testifying against Oliver and may have even erased the whole GA/vigilante arrest/trial which makes everything so utterly pointless.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

Aside from liking Rene last season, cosign on your whole post. When the betrayal came out I didn't hate Rene. I wanted him off the team because it made it clear that he wasn't up to the challenges that life brings but I didn't want him suffering excessively. I just wanted him to retire as vigilante. After 610 though, boy howdy do I want him to pay. As you say, his first act of betrayal is understandable if not praise worthy. It's everything after that's despicable. 

[Featherhat]

Yeah I get the initial thing. I still think he was stupid not to try and work with Oliver and the team on this, especially as they have two cops on their side and people like Felicity who are used to finding out exactly what people actually know.

But yeah 610 basically erased all that with the full blown toddler tantrum from everyone of them. Dinah and Curtis don't worry for a minute second that he might get threatened with Zoe being taken away again and drop them in it, Rene doesn't consider that immunity isn't a forever thing and since he is still vigilanting he could still get into trouble. 

If he had followed up Oliver's entirely reasonable explanation of why OTA tracked them etc with "Okay Hoss but I felt I had to because Zoe...." Oliver the new(ish) doting Dad and newly wed would have forgiven him in a heartbeat and worked it out. But then we wouldn't have had this nonsensical civil war. 

And yes, since his testimony is going away, it's laying the ground work for a quick "all is forgiven" reconciliation, even after the axe attack. At least with Rene, who knows with Dinah, but probably all of them. What a waste of time. 

It does crack me up a little that we could start a "this doesn't change anything Hoss" meme of ridiculousness. Oliver could rescue Zoe from their burning apartment and Rene would still be "Doesn't........) Rene feels so strongly about it that he stalks the family all the way on vacation just so he can pop out at them at different times to remind them "Doesn't......) Sigh. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Featherhat

[KenyaJ]

8 hours ago, Featherhat said:

And yes, since his testimony is going away, it's laying the ground work for a quick "all is forgiven" reconciliation, even after the axe attack. At least with Rene, who knows with Dinah, but probably all of them. What a waste of time. 

I a already preemptively furious. There is no reason why OTA should or would trust Rene again. He's proven twice that he can't be trusted to keep Oliver's identity secret and he's proven that he can't follow command in the field. He could save Oliver's life 50 times and I still wouldn't buy that Oliver would trust him again.

[Angel12d]

I didn't like Rene in 5a. At all. Once they stopped pushing him so hard in 5b, he was slightly better. I'm not sure whether my not being bothered by him in 6a is because he didn't have much to do and is therefore better to stomach as a background character or because he actually was better? IDK.

It wasn't great but I actually understood where he was coming from in 609 and doing it for his daughter is probably the best reason he could've had. It was dumb, however, that he didn't just go to Oliver or OTA or even Quentin and tell them what was happening. More writing for plot, I guess. But where Rene completely lost me is when he started getting an attitude about Oliver not instantly trusting him in the field. The guy had just been betrayed by a team member, of course he's not going to trust you an hour later.

I liked that he showed some remorse and guilt in 610 (I think? These episodes are hazy because I feel like they're all the same tbh) but again, his attitude in the field sucked. And then he just got progressively worse with his snide comments and "This doesn't change a thing, hoss!" and it's like the writers completely lost sight of the fact that RENE IS TO BLAME FOR ALL OF THIS. 

So, unfortunately, I'm at the point where I don't want him or any of the newbies back on the team. The show hasn't really given me a reason to care about any of the newbies so I'm just not invested in wanting them to stay. Not to mention I just don't see them as heroes, especially after their behavior these last few weeks. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Angel12d

[statsgirl]

Oh writers, just because you're having fun writing a mouthy, immature character doesn't mean that I as a viewer am having fun watching.

I know that there are so many, many things that Rene has done recently that are far worse but he lost me in his early episodes when he thought that he was so special he didn't  need to listen to or respect anyone who couldn't beat him up and ignored orders in the field because he thought he knew better than everyone else.  Continuing to call Felicity "Blondie" when she kept asking him to stop was just the icing on the cake.  (I wish she'd just taken a bo staff and hit him over the head with it, maybe then he would listen to it.

I'm trying to organize a group of people to do a complicated and important job.  They're all volunteers and have limited time. Most are good to work with but there's one person who has decided that going through the committee is too slow and stupid and so she does her own thing like making purchases that duplicate what the person responsible for the task has already made and while she comes up with some good things, she also takes up time that's needed for other things.  At this point I'm so frustrated by her I'm hoping she leaves even though we're very understaffed.  I don't need someone who decides on her own  what's needed and ignores her co-workers, I need someone I can assign a task to and know that it will get done competently.

I don't wish Rene ill, much, but he's shouldn't be on Team Arrow as a regular member. He's such a liability that Oliver has got to be desperate to ever think of having him back.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I don't wish Rene ill, much, but he's shouldn't be on Team Arrow as a regular member. He's such a liability that Oliver has got to be desperate to ever think of having him back.

I think I wish him a little bit ill at this point.  ?  But just enough to be annoying to him without harming a daughter that I am feeling more and more pity for.  

[Lady Calypso]

On 17/03/2018 at 2:00 PM, statsgirl said:

I don't wish Rene ill, much, but he's shouldn't be on Team Arrow as a regular member. He's such a liability that Oliver has got to be desperate to ever think of having him back.

The only way I think his story can end is with him taking Zoe far away from Star City. They've tried to establish how much he cares for his daughter (tries, being the operative word) but with his last episode ending with him being almost fatally wounded, I can't see him placing himself in danger again and again without the worry that he'll leave his daughter as an orphan one of these times. 

However, knowing this show, they will likely ignore what should happen logically (even if I didn't hate Rene, this is what should be happening) and they'll keep Rene around for next season.