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PODCAST S02.E07 Go Pirates!: Surprise, It's A Girls' Night!

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Listening to the podcast now, in regards to Duncan’s motivation re Meg, but I think once Duncan knows Meg is pregnant, things change for him. And of course, the Mannings child abuse had to be a plot so he and V would have the motive for Donut Run.

And the babysitting plot was needed for that too..I think it worked  I enjoy Mrs. Hauser, seeing Gia’s family is good for the plot, the Edwin kid and Sabrina’s dad..great character revisit/continuity  

I’d give the episode an A- probably  

Yay, and I am just hearing that Mrs Hauser is John’s MVP!

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Duncan shows he really got to know Meg very well and at one point Veronica says 'I learned I wasn't the love of my life's love of his life' (something like).  She realizes true love stories don't have endings, but she isn't part of Duncan's true love story. As she is following him around she is learning that he had a complex and involved relationship with Meg.

So tertiary character development? Suddenly a load of insight into what Duncan has been doing, but only when Veronica notices!

I think Veronica Mars, had it played out, would be her telling someone (a therapist, her daughter, keith when he's recovering from a hit and run) about what actually happened in highschool. I think what we get is her perspective on the characters. I don't think Veronica thinks a lot about Corny. Madison really is just mean to Veronica and (except for those two horrible times ) Veronica finds her just annoying. and could care less about what makes Madison tick. (Madison, after season 3, does actually come into focus for Veronica. Looking back). Tessa not too relevant, except as she had an impact on Wallace. Logan is treated the same way, most of the time in the show Veronica sees him as better than he is, which is part of the reason he clings to her. She sees Keith as thevperfect dad, so we do, too.. 

I think at the end of season three, looking back, there is a pretty rich characterization of Wallace, it just builds slowly. 

Veronica isn't, like jughead in Riverdale, taking notes on what is happening in his town, for his future book. She's swimming upstream and I think her processing comes later. She's too damn busy and tired to process and not that empathic (apparently teens aren't, it is a characteristic that seems to develop later than you might think).

You may or may not like her, but this is her story. Not the towns, not the high school's story. The problem with the other characters isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. 

Weevil's still in school because he promised his Grandmother he'd graduate.

Edited by Affogato

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I never saw Veronica making Logan better than he was. And I agree with the above poster, she tended to think the worst of him before anything else. And was always ready to close the door on him.

I never knew what we were supposed to feel about Duncan. At times when we saw him via Veronica’s viewpoint it changed. At one point he was her ex boyfriend who broke up with her but she maybe still held a torch for because the breakup was random and confusing and she didn’t have the answers.

And then at times she would be angry at him for this excat situation. And then the mess where he could maybe be her brother.

She does however absolve his actions at Shelly’s party though to
Logan-“We were both out of it” or something like that. I can’t remember.

But for us as viewers it is confusing, plus Teddy plays him strange in not only every episode but sometimes in scenes in the same episodes. I don’t know what to take from it.

I agree it also doesn’t help as our podcast hosts mention that some episodes bring up
Important plot points but then the next episode has them never mentioned or talked about for a while.

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You may or may not like her, but this is her story. Not the towns, not the high school's story. The problem with the other characters isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. 

Well, yes -- but the show is not consistent as to that, is the issue. We understand that it isn't an ensemble drama; the show is named after her, after all. But 1) we do see other characters doing things VM doesn't know about/interacting with each other away from her, so the argument that it's her show loses a little force there, and 2) her being in the foreground/the primary POV isn't the issue, it's how consistently other characters in her orbit are drawn, right down to how frequently they appear (a budget thing not in the writers' control) and how they're drawn episode to episode versus one-shot characters who often seem to get more depth and higher polish.

 

If this isn't bothersome to you, that's awesome. To me, it's a little frustrating, because the show is so good and so promising. Like, if shit is out of character on Dawson's Creek, who cares, you don't expect much, but on VM it's like a poppyseed at the gumline. IMO, of course.

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6 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Well, yes -- but the show is not consistent as to that, is the issue. We understand that it isn't an ensemble drama; the show is named after her, after all. But 1) we do see other characters doing things VM doesn't know about/interacting with each other away from her, so the argument that it's her show loses a little force there, and 2) her being in the foreground/the primary POV isn't the issue, it's how consistently other characters in her orbit are drawn, right down to how frequently they appear (a budget thing not in the writers' control) and how they're drawn episode to episode versus one-shot characters who often seem to get more depth and higher polish.

 

If this isn't bothersome to you, that's awesome. To me, it's a little frustrating, because the show is so good and so promising. Like, if shit is out of character on Dawson's Creek, who cares, you don't expect much, but on VM it's like a poppyseed at the gumline. IMO, of course.

This. It may be Veronica’s show because she’s our title character but things like Sarah pointed out happen outside of her POV and as viewers we get confused. Bringing it back to this episode- yes the scene where Kendall walks out of Duncan’s room and maybe something happened and I guess viewers are supposed to infer that Duncan would never cheat on Veronica because he’s such a good guy or something. But.. is he?

As our podcasts hosts have been pointing out, he kind of isn’t. At least from my viewing point. He never tells Veronica the real truth, also his whole entire relationship with Meg is kind of awful and the way he treated her before breaking up with her is questionable to me. But whatever. I don’t like the character and the acting choices made by the actor for the character are confusing.

Also another thing that I mentioned in my earlier post that our podcaster hosts point out is the fact that stories in season two keep getting dropped in one episode as a big deal only to disappear and then come back up like three episodes later. It’s confusing. 

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“Chlamydia is not a flower” was the actual title of a brochure in my college health services office that my friends and I reference to this day. Now I wonder if any time I’ve said that since 2005 people thought I was quoting VM!

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I really love the character of Gia.  What sucks is that, movie included, she is one of the most tragic characters in "Veronica Mars."  

 

I think it's weird that in the episode where Meg was introduced, her family grounded her after finding letters with "sexy" stuff in it and Veronica was allowed to come visit her and everything.  They also had another daughter they were abusing in the house and were having people over?  Interesting.  

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I'm guessing that the Mannings were really good at hiding their behavior. I mean, Meg suspected, but didn't have hard proof, and I'm pretty sure Lizzie would be shouting it from the mountain tops if she suspected her parents of something (especially involving her sister.) It doesn't seem like Meg and Lizzie underwent this abuse as children, so I'm wondering if the Mannings test of faith was a recent development (maybe spurned off Meg's bad reputation in Like a Virgin.)

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14 hours ago, absnow54 said:

I'm guessing that the Mannings were really good at hiding their behavior. I mean, Meg suspected, but didn't have hard proof, and I'm pretty sure Lizzie would be shouting it from the mountain tops if she suspected her parents of something (especially involving her sister.) It doesn't seem like Meg and Lizzie underwent this abuse as children, so I'm wondering if the Mannings test of faith was a recent development (maybe spurned off Meg's bad reputation in Like a Virgin.)

Well i disagree..this type of 'dynamic' doesn't happen just because of ONE event..suddenly..it is an ongoing dynamic and every members is infected by it, in one way or another.

And often members of family who are not the straight victim and want to ignore the abuse, deep down at least, know something is not 'right'..

At least in real life and while it could not be really developed onscreen on this show because this family was not the major focus, i imagined they had the typical dynamic of 'when abuse built the family '

Edited by pau

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14 hours ago, absnow54 said:

I'm guessing that the Mannings were really good at hiding their behavior. I mean, Meg suspected, but didn't have hard proof, and I'm pretty sure Lizzie would be shouting it from the mountain tops if she suspected her parents of something (especially involving her sister.) It doesn't seem like Meg and Lizzie underwent this abuse as children, so I'm wondering if the Mannings test of faith was a recent development (maybe spurned off Meg's bad reputation in Like a Virgin.)

I never thought that the other girls didn’t know...that seems unlikely to me  

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I never thought that the other girls didn’t know...that seems unlikely to me

Me either. I thought that Meg's emails to the child protective services lady were aimed at finding out about what would happen if she revealed what was going on. Grace made some comment about Mr. Manning saying she wasn't "ready to come out" or something like that. It sounded to me like the abuse perhaps stopped or changed with Meg and Lizzie, but they had gone through what Grace was enduring now. I assumed that Meg reached a point where she wanted to protect her sister, but was still afraid of her parents and the consequences of revealing the family secret.

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 9:52 AM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Well, yes -- but the show is not consistent as to that, is the issue. We understand that it isn't an ensemble drama; the show is named after her, after all. But 1) we do see other characters doing things VM doesn't know about/interacting with each other away from her, so the argument that it's her show loses a little force there, and 2) her being in the foreground/the primary POV isn't the issue, it's how consistently other characters in her orbit are drawn, right down to how frequently they appear (a budget thing not in the writers' control) and how they're drawn episode to episode versus one-shot characters who often seem to get more depth and higher polish.

 

If this isn't bothersome to you, that's awesome. To me, it's a little frustrating, because the show is so good and so promising. Like, if shit is out of character on Dawson's Creek, who cares, you don't expect much, but on VM it's like a poppyseed at the gumline. IMO, of course.

OK, sorry. Trying to keep it short and it obviously wasn’t working. I was responding originally to the statements that Alicia was inconsistently presented, depending on what the show was trying to say in an individual episode and that the same was true of Wallace and a number of secondary characters. I don’t believe this is true. I do believe that there is something off about Veronica Mars, the tv show, and I don’t know what it is. I’m not finding it as rewatchable as I thought it would be, but many bad things can be rewatchable. I do find that it is pretty consistent about the characters and seems to have them react believably in individual episodes. Sure, it is her POV but not only her POV.

Considering Alicia. She has moved to Neptune, on the occasion of her husband’s death, to take a job in Kane Industries.  Money is tight but she buys a house that aspires to a position in the class structure higher than her own. She is always rigid and strident about who she wants Wallace to hang out with (not Veronica, because where there is smoke, must be fire) and what she thinks of Keith’s parenting (permissively allowing Veronica to have contact with people and ideas she should be forbidden to access). She may also be loving when the occasion calls, but never shows any interest in mothering Veronica and remains an antagonist to Veronica. Honestly, with Liane, Lynn, Celeste and Alicia mothers represent some major dragons for Veronica to slay. No wonder she doesn’t, especially at this time, want to become one. They also seem to represent the pull back to childhood.

Frightened by the refrigerator debacle, Keith resumes relations with her and is amenable to following her rules for childrearing. Taking V off the MI payroll, pretending he isn’t having sex with Alicia, he pursues the ‘normal’ he wants (and that we always blame Veronica for wanting). He must have a taste for it since he was part and parcel of the Mars family absent father, drunk mother, enabling child group that tried so hard to look like the perfect family. This isn’t inconsistent behavior for him and seems  well in Alicia’s repertoire.

 Veronica in the past comes across Wallace and cuts him down from the flagpole. He is the kind of guy who gets taped to a flagpole, not good at standing up to the many gray areas of gritty noir Neptune High. He learns. When Veronica, a pushy bitch (not dissimilar to Alicia) pushes to hard he pushes back and this is an important learning experience for him. Eventually it enables him to stand up to Tessa and to stand up to his mother when he discovers she has kept information about his biological father from him, and that allows him to head off on his own to have is own hero’s sidekick quest to find himself, which later leads to his following Veronica into the underworld in Season 3, which leads to his finding what he wants to do with himself. I actually feel he ends up being one of the better developed consistant characters in Veronica Mars, loyal to his friends and steadfast in his search for himself (as shown by his exploration of his biological father when presented with him).

So, Duncan. Tertiary character. Hehasn’t changed much in his tendency to avoid direct  confrontation, but this season he has an arc where he again treats Veronica shabbily, but stands up for Meg and his child. I believe Veronica and Duncan make the fairly ill conceived decision to send him away from everyone because they are keeping the child away from not just the Mannings but from the Kanes, who Duncan has little reason to trust at this point.

Veronica herself, this is a heroes journey story and not unlike the tarot version. The burning tower and the roof of the grande story, upcoming, the comparison writes itself. Also, like Buffy the end of both shows ends in the card ‘the world’. Escaping the things that drag you down, the world in front of you! However, Buffy was a choosen one story and her destiny was forced on her. Veronica chooses to become a hero when Lamb brushes her off after Shelley’s party (yes, Veronica is not empowered by her rape, she is empowered by his callous indifference). This is much less common for female characters, Wonder Woman, certainly, a few others. So, yes, this story has some weight and importance.

Veronica starts out the tarot fool. She is in her dress, demeanor years younger than her chronological age. She has been held back a year. She has tried to pretend that she is part of a perfect family, her only experience of that before her mother’s alcoholism became full blown, which was at age six. She has a child’s view of right and wrong, Logan cheated, tell on him. And in the limo she thinks Logan is the most exciting boy ever and the most grown up boy ever.

By the beginning of the second season she learns that being shot at in your boyfriend’s car isn’t the exciting you wanted and that he really isn’t stepping up like an adult. She never goes back, no matter what she things of him (and some of the sexual insecurity stuff) deep down she is never that little girl again. She grows a lot. She is still growing, it is her superpower.

 Logan still is around. The actor got a huge role in the first season because he played so well with Aaron, but it isn’t like we see him grown and change, we just find out where he is coming from. In the second season the same shit happens to him. He gets worse and worse. Unlike Wallace, , he doesn’t have a heroes sidekick arc, and no, passive aggressive making yourself look good at someone else’s expense isn’t the same thing.  And since people decided Logan and Veronica were the preferred couple it just gets hard for many people to watch.

So is that the problem? Like maybe he should have been, as an alcoholic kid with a violent self destructive streak and a murder rap, been sent to a foster home or rehab center instead of becoming an emancipated minor? With some plots that protected him a little and led him to some modicum of self awareness, with a different group, perhaps some of the pchers? Should Meg have lived and moved in with Duncan (and away after a while.) could Veronica have been without a boyfriend for a while and made another friend or two?

I don’t think the show could ever have been the show where Keith, against type, takes Logan in and adopts him and where Keith backs Logan up when Veronica puts herself in danger and the two of them double-team her about it, after which Logan and Wallace go out and solve the mystery (and learn that Madison isn’t so bad after all!) and Veronica has her scoobies back at the house for cookies. (or some version of this that is less obviously worded).

However, there are things that needed to be fixed.

And that was what I meant. I just was hoping not to be so wordy.  

Edited by Affogato · Reason: hanging sentence parts

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21 hours ago, mwcherry said:

Me either. I thought that Meg's emails to the child protective services lady were aimed at finding out about what would happen if she revealed what was going on. Grace made some comment about Mr. Manning saying she wasn't "ready to come out" or something like that. It sounded to me like the abuse perhaps stopped or changed with Meg and Lizzie, but they had gone through what Grace was enduring now. I assumed that Meg reached a point where she wanted to protect her sister, but was still afraid of her parents and the consequences of revealing the family secret.

In the story, recently in the news, about the thirteen abused children kept prisoner apparently one escaped at on point and was returned to the house, also neighbors chimed up with stories of seeing them marched around the house all night. With a strong religious group to back Stuart up, it is easy to see his children would feel like they wouldn't be believed. It also reinforces Logan's story, many abuses  never seeing the light of day because they are hidden behind the appearance of respectability. 

I imagine that this experience, after the open trial and Logan's revelations, leads Duncan to do what he does about Aaron. This confirms that Duncan did not know about Logan's abuse, I suppose. 

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On 1/25/2018 at 9:20 AM, Affogato said:

 This confirms that Duncan did not know about Logan's abuse, I suppose. 

Veronica told Duncan that "[Aaron] beats Logan, you know" right after they saw the tapes with Aaron and Lilly.

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I'm a bit late to the party and I just listened to the podcast yesterday. And I don't have much to add to the discussion on this episode but I just want to say thanks to @Sarah D. Bunting and @John Ramos for the shout out and the discussion. I will put it in my list of tiny triumphs in my life.

And I agree that Duncan is part of the secondary character that are not well defined. It did not bother me in season 1 because we were supposed to not know if we was capable of killing Lilly or not but it is becoming an issue in season 2 when he is supposed to be the good guy (in comparison to Logan bad boy). 

Some of the secondary character are well defined like Keith Mars or Logan (after the change of heart in season 1) for example (even Weevil to some extent). But I found the issue more obvious in season 2 than in season 1. It's probably because in season 1 you know that the writers are still trying to figure out some characters (Logan being a good example) or discovering talents that they should write for. But it is also because season 2 is probably juggling with too many stories and characters and thus they don't manage to give enough space to everyone in every episode. So we only see the character when he is relevant to the story (like Jackie or Mac). 

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I tend to think the family dynamics are, well, oddly portrayed. If the Mannings were controlling, then how DID they allow Meg's relationship to proceed as far as it did*? And if the Goodmans are similarly controlling (if not in the same way), then how come Gia is - well, the way she is? She certainly doesn't come across as somebody whose home life was fairly tightly controlled.

As for the Neptune Grand Twins, I'm pretty much with Duncan on "If Logan gets to shag Beaver's step mom, well... lucky him." I didn't assume Duncan slept with Kendall, but I do think Logan would have given him a heads up about what she was doing (...poor choice of words, possibly) if he started shelling out on "gifts" to maintain her in the style to which she was accustomed.

* Unless we're meant to see their actions toward Lizzie as a reaction to what happened to Meg, but it certainly seems as if Lizzie's abuse is much more long term than that.

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9 hours ago, John Potts said:

I tend to think the family dynamics are, well, oddly portrayed. If the Mannings were controlling, then how DID they allow Meg's relationship to proceed as far as it did*? And if the Goodmans are similarly controlling (if not in the same way), then how come Gia is - well, the way she is? She certainly doesn't come across as somebody whose home life was fairly tightly controlled.

As for the Neptune Grand Twins, I'm pretty much with Duncan on "If Logan gets to shag Beaver's step mom, well... lucky him." I didn't assume Duncan slept with Kendall, but I do think Logan would have given him a heads up about what she was doing (...poor choice of words, possibly) if he started shelling out on "gifts" to maintain her in the style to which she was accustomed.

* Unless we're meant to see their actions toward Lizzie as a reaction to what happened to Meg, but it certainly seems as if Lizzie's abuse is much more long term than that.

I think maybe the point is you can’t tell.

At first Veronica seems like a gentle and shy feminine girl but in fact she is trying to please and cover for an alcoholic mother. Don’t make waves. Don’t make mom drunk rant at you on the lawn  

 I also buy gia acting like she does because she was praised and punished inconsistently. You know sometimes wetting the carpet is cute puppy, sometimes wagging your tail gets you kicked. Bad for dogs and kids. 

I got the impression all the Manning girls got grace level abuse  I think meg met her boyfriends while babysitting  her only free time.  nurturing is good for young ladies  :-)

I

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