Dark - General Discussion

[Natalie25]

On 8/9/2020 at 3:20 PM, Paloma said:

Do we know for a fact that this was Bartosz? I know a lot of viewers think it was, but I didn't think he resembled Bartosz at all, and the show was usually good at having actors who were believable as different ages of themselves.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 4:20 PM, sistermagpie said:

We do definitely know that was Bartosz. I thought he did look like him, myself. But iirc, we saw Bartosz at the birth of both his kids and the first time he's played by the actor we know, and the second he's that other actor. At least that's how I remember it.

 

Yes, it was Bartosz - same actor! There was a lot of speculation after Season 2, and I didn't put much faith in it myself. Initially I didn't see the resemblance either. But, I'm not sure which episode - but it's confirmed when Eva lines up her soldier's in the alt word - she calls him Bartosz. The following episode is the "in between years" episode where we see young Bartosz at Noah's birth, and this actor playing adult Bartosz at Agnes' birth.

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, Natalie25 said:

On 8/9/2020 at 4:20 PM, sistermagpie said:

We do definitely know that was Bartosz. I thought he did look like him, myself. But iirc, we saw Bartosz at the birth of both his kids and the first time he's played by the actor we know, and the second he's that other actor. At least that's how I remember it.

 

Yes, it was Bartosz - same actor! There was a lot of speculation after Season 2, and I didn't put much faith in it myself. Initially I didn't see the resemblance either. But, I'm not sure which episode - but it's confirmed when Eva lines up her soldier's in the alt word - she calls him Bartosz. The following episode is the "in between years" episode where we see young Bartosz at Noah's birth, and this actor playing adult Bartosz at Agnes' birth.

Thanks to both of you--I'm not sure how I missed that it was the same actor at Agnes' birth. 

[Snow Fairy]

Coming late to the party, I am currently reading the last almost three pages here, so maybe I will find the answer. But when were we told that Tronte was a son of the Unknown?

Edit-found it, nevermind

Edited September 17, 2020 by Snow Fairy

[marinw]

The Production Team behind Dark is giving us another Apocalyptiod:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/in-the-tribes-of-europa-trailer-the-world-has-gone-to-1845897185

This does look a bit like the mid-seasons of The 100 (a show I am still shuddering about) but I loved Dark so I will try this.

[Slovenly Muse]

Netflix's Dark! The show that dares to ask the important questions, like, "If banging my aunt is wrong, could I travel to a parallel timeline where her sibling never had me, and bang THAT version of my aunt? Is that cool?"

I am super late to the party on this one, but I finally watched the show and had some thoughts!

First of all, any fellow Parks and Rec fans remember that throwaway joke, when Ben invented the "Cones of Dunshire" board game and was ridiculously pleased that a games magazine had reviewed it as "punishingly intricate?" That was the exact phrase that kept going through my mind the whole way through this thing. This is the most punishingly intricate time travel narrative I've ever seen, and I really appreciated that! I give it kudos! It taught me a lot about the things I do and don't like in time travel stories. I'm really in awe of it's plotting, and the way it managed to open and close these twisting, tangled loops so that it all made sense in the end. I do wish it had gone a little further! Partway through season 1, I started envisioning a more chaotic version of events, where Jonas DID rescue Mikkel from 1986 and bring him home. I started wondering if this show was going to break out of the standard time travel story, where you have to avoid paradoxes and take care to preserve one chronological sequence of events that is for some reason more "correct" than other possible sequences of events.... and just fucking go for it! What if time isn't a line, but rather an infinite web of possibilities, where paradoxes aren't possible because the past, present, and future are all influencing each other in non-linear ways that have never been explored on television before? So, the show I GOT was a bit of a let down. I appreciate that the loops all connected, and while I glazed over some of the details toward the end, I didn't have a problem tracking everybody's progression through the series. But other than it's intricate time loops, I was pretty disappointed with the story.

For one thing, there was just way too much of characters being confronted by older versions of themselves, and guided towards certain actions, only to find that their older selves had lied to them... and that even OLDER selves had lied to those older selves, and manipulated THEM into manipulating their younger selves, until it became impossible to figure out what anyone's motivation for doing anything really was. It got tiresome, and not that interesting. Because everyone's goals were so muddied it was impossible to know what anyone was really fighting FOR (and if you did, it turned out they'd be fighting for the opposite thing later on), it made the emotional stakes hard to connect with.

For another thing, I did not AT ALL buy Jonas and Martha as star-crossed lovers. Their incestuous love was weird in ALL timelines, and I had no emotional investment in their connection. For another thing, the show thought it was pretty clever making Charlotte and Elizabeth each other's mothers... but didn't want to acknowledge at all the fact that to make that happen, Charlotte and Elizabeth both had to sleep with their own grandfathers (and those men both had to sleep with their own granddaughters). I understand not wanting to dwell on it, but that's a bit fucked up to completely ignore and hope no one notices.

I really LIKED its use of the bootstrap paradox, and things that only exist because they had already existed... but that made it even more frustrating when it got hung up on other types of paradoxes. Like, you can't kill yourself because an older version of yourself "already exists," so "time won't let you" do it. Saying that paradoxes like that simply can't exist is a bit of a cheat, but it's fine, I can buy that... the problem is that the resolution of the series is EXACTLY that paradox! If Jonas and Martha changed the timeline to prevent their worlds from ever existing, then how did they exist in order to be there to change the timeline? Did "time" change its mind about allowing that, or what?

Also, the running theme of the three-part situation. Past, present, and future. Child, adult, elder. Three dimensions. The trifecta. Suddenly making Jonas and Martha's worlds part of a 3-world system doesn't track with the other examples, because in what other three-part situation in the show can you remove TWO of the parts and see the remaining one continue to exist normally? It would have made more sense to have the origin world need the other two to exist as well, creating a three-part loop with some sort of mutually-beneficial or mutually-destructive property; making the three worlds interdependent, creating each others' problems and solutions. Suddenly making two of the worlds disappear through a paradox we've already been told "time simply won't allow" just doesn't fit with the rest of the story, and feels lazy in comparison to the otherwise very intricate plotting.

I have so many mixed feelings about this show. I finished A LOT of episodes by shouting at my TV, "I wish I knew if I hated this!" Because I honestly still don't know if I loved or hated this show. I've told my partner HE should watch it (he has strong feelings about time travel stories) so that he can tell me whether or not I hated it! Nevertheless, I admire what it did, even though I can't commit to actually liking it.

I'm glad it exists, and I'm glad I watched it, and my other feelings... well, they're probably going to remain stuck in an infinite knot, trying to come to some sort of conclusion!

[marinw]

Wonderful post @Slovenly Muse. This show makes Game of Thrones look simple.

Thinking about all the time travel related incest still hurts my brain. Ouch.

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

If Jonas and Martha changed the timeline to prevent their worlds from ever existing, then how did they exist in order to be there to change the timeline? Did "time" change its mind about allowing that, or what?

Just picking this bit out, but I read it that the words where Jonas and alt-Martha existed were deterministic, with time not allowing a lot of things, but the origin world was not. That's the world where things could be changed. So once they changed things, they simple disappeared without creating a loop where now the family still went over the bridge. They were just visited by these beings from another world and time kept going forward instead of making knots.

37 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Charlotte and Elizabeth both had to sleep with their own grandfathers (and those men both had to sleep with their own granddaughters). I understand not wanting to dwell on it, but that's a bit fucked up to completely ignore and hope no one notices.

TBH, this doesn't bother me. They're genetically connected, but they don't have any relationship with their grandfather that makes it feel icky to me. That's also why Jonas and Martha doesn't seem squicky to me--even if, like you, I don't particularly buy them as being a grand love. I accept it for the show no problem, but they just seem like two teenagers who kinda like each other for a while in high school.

34 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Also, the running theme of the three-part situation. Past, present, and future. Child, adult, elder. Three dimensions. The trifecta. Suddenly making Jonas and Martha's worlds part of a 3-world system doesn't track with the other examples, because in what other three-part situation in the show can you remove TWO of the parts and see the remaining one continue to exist normally? It would have made more sense to have the origin world need the other two to exist as well, creating a three-part loop with some sort of mutually-beneficial or mutually-destructive property; making the three worlds interdependent, creating each others' problems and solutions. Suddenly making two of the worlds disappear through a paradox we've already been told "time simply won't allow" just doesn't fit with the rest of the story, and feels lazy in comparison to the otherwise very intricate plotting.

Because they weren't actually three universes, exactly. Only one of them was a complete universe-the origin world. The other two were like cancerous growths that appeared with their loops fully formed, like reverberating echoes of the first world rather than actual whole worlds in themselves.

Of course, both of those comments should be taken as just the way I read the show and not the correct answer. But that's how it seemed to me, especially thematically. Because it was really about this one guy's grief and his attempts to avoid the loss, like a bad dream he vomited up and became reality colored by his own situation and emotions. I can't defend it all super-logically, but instinctively it made sense to me.

[Slovenly Muse]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Just picking this bit out, but I read it that the words where Jonas and alt-Martha existed were deterministic, with time not allowing a lot of things, but the origin world was not. That's the world where things could be changed. So once they changed things, they simple disappeared without creating a loop where now the family still went over the bridge. They were just visited by these beings from another world and time kept going forward instead of making knots.

Sure... but then, if the two offshoot-worlds weren't deterministic, shouldn't the origin world (or "real" world) be even MORE strict about allowing paradoxes to exist, since it's the "correct" one that shouldn't be changed? Jonas and Martha weren't just erasing their worlds, they were preventing their worlds from being created in the first place, and they DID cease to exist as a result of their actions which could therefore have never taken place, so I would have liked a bit more exploration of that paradox, rather than just handwaving it away as "oh, it works now," especially from a show that has put so much thought and care into the other paradoxes it created. (I would have even been happier if Jonas and Martha had continued to exist as like, shipwrecked sailors in someone else's timeline, surviving and living in a world that is not facing imminent apocalypse, but where all their family and friends will never exist. I feel like that would have made more sense than, they prevented themselves from ever existing and didn't create a paradox somehow.)

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Because they weren't actually three universes, exactly. Only one of them was a complete universe-the origin world. The other two were like cancerous growths that appeared with their loops fully formed, like reverberating echoes of the first world rather than actual whole worlds in themselves.

Yes, you're exactly right. I'm just annoyed that the show presented it in EXACTLY the same way they presented the other 3-part situations, mirroring the reveal in season 1 that the portal ALSO goes to the future, because there are always three: Past, present, and future. They used this imagery and theme throughout the show, and then tried to use it on the last reveal as well as a sort of re-reveal ("you should have known there are always three"), only, as you say, it is NOT the same situation, so it doesn't actually work. In the case of the three worlds, three is an arbitrary number chosen to fit with the other, more meaningful, occurrences of the 3-pattern. Any number of parallel timelines could have been created from people's diverging decisions, so that point felt weaker than it could have.

Anyway, I've been surfing around and having a hard time finding reviews of the season that aren't glowing, so I'm glad people are enjoying the show. I did enjoy it, I think? Or not? It hurts my head, but, in a good way? I still don't know!

[Paloma]

On 3/23/2021 at 11:10 PM, Slovenly Muse said:

It hurts my head, but, in a good way?

That sums the show up pretty well (including your question mark)!

[Kirsty]

I finished season 2 last night, so I'm skipping over the last few pages of posts (about season 3) for now.

One thing I wasn't crazy about in the second season was the show becoming The Jonas Show. He’s not interesting enough to justify four versions of him in one episode.

And unfortunately, the show vastly overestimates how much I care about Jonas’s feelings for Martha. In season one, they were teenagers who had kissed before he went away and she started dating someone else. Normal teen stuff! Yet in the second season the show is constantly returning to that pairing like it’s the love story at the heart of time travel.

I thought the low point was middle-aged Jonas creeping in her teenage bedroom. But I was wrong; there was worse to come! In the season finale, (old) Jonas killed teenage Martha for the benefit of his younger self's emotional journey, which was the most egregious example of fridging I've ever seen. I'm surprised they didn't use an actual fridge.

Goth Martha subsequently appeared from another dimension, and I hear that she has a bigger role in season three. But I'm not holding my breath for four versions of Martha, with one of them murdering Jonas to propel a young version of herself on her road to enlightenment or whatever!

Edited to add:

"I was confused by your post until I realized that every time you said Noah, you meant Jonas"

🙈🙈 Yes, I meant Jonas! Thank you very much for pointing it out; my post must have made little sense! I've just corrected it.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Kirsty

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, Kirsty said:

One thing I wasn't crazy about in the second season was the show becoming The Noah Show

I was confused by your post until I realized that every time you said Noah, you meant Jonas--at least I think that's what you meant. Noah was the priest, and I'm pretty sure he was never romantically involved with Martha.

[iMonrey]

I've done a complete rewatch of the series. This is the only the second time I've seen Season 3, but I'd seen Season 1 three times and Season 2 twice since I always did a rewatch before the new season.

Anyway, I was struck by the perception that somewhere along the way, the writers made some last minute changes to accommodate a series finale. Like maybe they went into it not knowing the series would end, then found out and made some quick last minute changes. 

Specifically, the third season made a big deal out of the character with the cleft palate and kept referring to him as The Origin. But this didn't end up panning out, and in fact that character ended up being somewhat superfluous. It's like they had something else in mind when putting so much focus on him (all three versions of him) then made a hard left turn and suddenly designated Tannaus as the origin. 

This didn't really bother me or occur to me the first time I watched Season 3 but on rewatch every time Adam or Eve talked about Martha's child being The Origin I kept going "No he's not." I still don't get it.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Specifically, the third season made a big deal out of the character with the cleft palate and kept referring to him as The Origin. But this didn't end up panning out, and in fact that character ended up being somewhat superfluous. It's like they had something else in mind when putting so much focus on him (all three versions of him) then made a hard left turn and suddenly designated Tannaus as the origin. 

 

Wait--okay, I don't remember this clearly now (despite having rewatched it at least once!) but wasn't the Origin (the harelip guy) the origin because he was the son of Jonas and Martha, and so the start/end of the knot?

[iMonrey]

Quote

Wait--okay, I don't remember this clearly now (despite having rewatched it at least once!) but wasn't the Origin (the harelip guy) the origin because he was the son of Jonas and Martha, and so the start/end of the knot?

Maybe, but that's awfully confusing, semantics-wise. I know both Adam and Eva referred to the origin as what started the whole thing, and that was most decidedly Tannaus lighting up his time machine and splitting his world in two. That's the "origin" Jonas and Martha had to eliminate by removing his motivation to do so. I don't know how you can call their child the origin of anything. He's actually the culmination, not the origin. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Maybe, but that's awfully confusing, semantics-wise. I know both Adam and Eva referred to the origin as what started the whole thing, and that was most decidedly Tannaus lighting up his time machine and splitting his world in two. That's the "origin" Jonas and Martha had to eliminate by removing his motivation to do so. I don't know how you can call their child the origin of anything. He's actually the culmination, not the origin. 

Oh! I see, yes. I think my interpretation of that was that that was the point. Adam and Eva thought their child was the origin that was keeping them in this set loop. That's why Adam was trying to destroy him, even if Eva wanted him to live. So Adam did destroy him and...nothing happened. Then Claudia walked in and was like yeah, he's not the origin of anything. When the real origin was undone everybody in the knot just disappeared.

[WritinMan]

I admire the creativity and ambition of this show, but it's kind of a chore to watch.

[WritinMan]

Could have just as easily called this show Angst. Would have been the exact same show.

[AnimeMania]

"Dark" creators Jantje Friese and Baran bo Odar lastest 8 episode series "1899" is set to appear on Netflix on November 17.

The 1899 thread is here.

[marinw]

I was dissapointed  with Tripes of Europa but I will gice this a try. The music is good!

[YeXx]

First post ever! I’ll get straight to it - why, after so many years, does Adam still think he can change what inevitably happens? He if anyone should know he can’t change anything that has happened up until where he is now.

Logic flaw?

[Landon R]

Ok so, I've been watching the series Dark. I like the series Don't get me wrong, I really do. But this must be said because it's come to a point where it's just absolutely ridiculous, And it's all about Jonas!

I don't know who decided that this would be a good thing, but I'm going to lose my shit if Jonas blanks out, while being spoken to in a new and strange environment or situation. On top of that, it takes him an entire 1 minute to form a syllable to begin speaking. I mean, come on!! It makes him look super stupid suspicious. So when I find shows that I really like, I put myself in the main characters' situation. As in, this is how I would do it or what would I do? It makes you feel like you're part of it. Maybe it's just me, but this crap with Jonas, is driving me nuts. Thanks guys for letting me vent. I stopped the show in the middle of an episode, after seeing Jonas blank out once again with Martha, I stopped mid-show just to find a formum to express this. Lol lol. I am now starting the last season and it's great.

Thank you And Happy Holidays!

Landon U.S.A