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S03.E02: To Josh, With Love

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend [V]

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katalizt

katalizt

On 10/21/2017 at 11:49 AM, Phishbulb said:

Who are the characters that Rachel is playing in the new opening to the show? I guess the blonde is supposed to be Carrie Underwood (specifically referencing the "Before He Cheats" video), and the guy in the hoodie is Eminem I guess. Who are the brunette and the (guy?) in the leather jacket and red shirt?

Given that Joseph Khan directed this intro, I would have figured he would work in Taylor Swift in there as he's directed quite a few of her videos. I guess the dark haired woman could be her; Taylor did have dark hair in her "Wildest Dreams" video (which Khan directed). Maybe they thought it would be confusing to have two blondes in there.

 Rather than one of the characters representing Taylor Swift, I think the entire opening is a take on her "Look What You Made Me Do" video, which was directed by Khan, in which she plays several different versions of herself and they all end up arguing with each other at the end. 

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DianeDobbler

DianeDobbler

(edited)
Spoiler

 

Definitely not excusing or negating Josh, just saying that in the universe of Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Rebecca has been just as terrible and been forgiven, and so I don't think what Josh did makes him stand out as more terrible than other characters. He's right in line with the main characters.

BUT, now that I think about it, I do feel that there are times when context is overlooked in certain plotlines. I recall Rachel Bloom re-emphasizing in interviews that at the time Rebecca chased Greg to the airport, she had just told Josh she was pregnant, chattered on about having a baby, switched to "Oh I'm not pregnant!" and then propositioned him for sex. Yet many viewers saw the "Chase to the airport" sequence as romantic rather than disturbed / deranged because we are so used to these tropes. I believe she said Aline Josh McKenna had to edit in Rebecca's therapist in order to remind viewers what was actually happening here.

So with Josh, as wrong as what he did was, I do like to remember how he ended up with that wedding date in the first place, what went down during the planning (including Rebecca kissing Nathaniel in the elevator), and I also like to remember that given her history, Rebecca would likely have reacted the same way or worse if he had confronted her maturely and told her he couldn't go through with it. She'd have felt just as vengeful, just as betrayed. I'm very sympathetic to Rebecca. I thought this episode showed the fun things about her - she gets all worked up about getting "Revenge" without really knowing what that entails, and is properly appalled when Nathanial describes what he's planned for Josh's family. "Josh's Lolo?!" I am likewise sympathetic to Josh because I see him and Rebecca as quite alike in their methods of avoiding introspection and confronting uncomfortable truths. They both run away. They both tell themselves convenient narratives that look absolutely nuts to outsiders - Rebecca's whole trajectory towards her wedding was crazy, Josh deciding he should be a priest was crazy. I see them as more ying and yang than others might. And btw, although Rebecca spilling her guts about everything she did to land Josh made Josh feel relieved of his guilt, I disagree with him. Of course he should have told her he couldn't go through with it, and retroactively discovering what had gone down to bring him to the altar in the first place isn't justification. I just think it's right in there with what everyone else on this show does, and no worse.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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kathe5133

kathe5133

First of all - I love this show!  I hadn't realized that Rebecca's song "Everything I've Done For You"... was the same as the Song Paula sang in Season 1.  I should have realized, I just didn't', but that being said, I re-watched Paula's version of the song.....  Now, we are all saying that Rebecca is bat shit crazy, and she is, but Paula may be a few fries short of a happy meal as well.  She hacked into Josh's grammar school transcripts?  She "accidently" ran into Josh's mother and suggested Rebecca be a bridesmaid?  There are others but mainly this is a grown woman, with a husband, kids, and a good job.  She meets someone who just started working at her company.  She follows her, spies on her, not because she fears her, but because she wants to be friends?  Then she helps her in all of the childish, idiotic capers to get Josh away from Valencia and has a freaking meltdown when Rebecca sleeps with Greg?  

And also,

Where's Karen? 

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

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I have been reading The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck by Mark Manson and I thought this applied to both Rebecca and Josh:

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Fault is past tense. Responsibility is present tense. Fault results from choices that have already been made. Responsibility results from the choices you're currently making, every second of every day.

And that's why I think Josh has been a real shithead. He KNEW that leaving Rebecca at the altar was a terribly hurtful thing to do. He KNEW that he was embarrassing her and humiliating her in front of everyone they knew (in addition to breaking her heart). He spent every day for two weeks choosing not to communicate with her, pretending that he just really wanted to become a priest. And despite all of this, he still wants to think of himself as the good guy, the victim, the injured party.

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possibilities

possibilities

I really don't think this show is about taking sides. The way I watch it is that there's a lot of bad behavior and none of it is being excused. It's all just being exposed for examination. We all know people who behave badly. We all have our moments of WTF?? This is kind of a 360 view of it, not an excuse, but an examination.

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

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No, it's not about taking sides, which is why I said in my previous post that obviously Rebecca has done some pretty bad things too. It's just that Josh seemed to think once she revealed some of those things, he was suddenly not responsible for any of his own actions. He seems to believe that only one person is ever wrong in a two person relationship which simply isn't true. Finding out that she had done some shady ass things doesn't absolve him of his own choices.

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DianeDobbler

DianeDobbler

(edited)

I was worried the country music character beating up the car was Britney Spears. Glad it was Carrie Underwood.

They're all assholes on this show, Josh no more so than the other leads. Greg was an asshole. Nathanial is an asshole. On the same show where Josh felt absolved of his guilt after learning what Rebecca had done, Nathanial had arranged to ruin the lives of innocent people and to actually kill one. All for sex.   Nobody is absolving anybody on this show - not Rebecca, not anyone. CEG has a lot of people behaving horribly and myopically and then digs into why.

I can't use the rules of farce or comedy to excuse Nathanial but hold Josh to the rules of drama. I am confident CEG understands Josh needs to deal with his shit, like Greg needed to deal with his, Paula with hers, and most of all, Rebecca with hers. Josh and Rebecca likely will be the last two characters to evolve. This episode wasn't the final statement on Josh's character. He looked for validation for a wrongheaded course he'd already chosen. Rebecca's done it a thousand times herself. 

For me, Josh was the worst when he was behaving in a reality based way, living with Rebecca, living OFF Rebecca, and enjoying sex with Rebecca, but refusing to actually be in a relationship with Rebecca because of some bro code. Not only was that selfish bullshit, it was asinine.

While I enjoy the Door Priest a lot, I think Father Brah's absence from the first two episodes is puzzling. He was the one who helped Josh work through his stuff. In fact, now that I think of it, Father Brah talking to Josh about his doubts, his issues, etc. absolutely paralleled Rebecca talking to Dr. Akopian about hers, and for all the hard work Father Brah and Dr. Akopian put in, both Rebecca and Josh consistently and triumphantly remained willfully in denial and ran off in the wrong directions.

I see this show as heightened reality, obviously, so I don't judge in a real world context. As others have pointed out, Paula's behavior was pretty deranged back when she got involved in Rebecca's life. I don't think we're meant to look at what she did as literally reality-based. What she did is a heightened expression of where she was as a character - dissatisfied with her own life, lonely, living vicariously through Rebecca. Also pretty obviously using the schemes they plotted as a channel for her thwarted intelligence and drive. 

In the real world, I don't think a guy could come straight from his wedding to a seminary, and actually be able to live at the seminary while a skeptical but compassionate priest tried to make him see he had no idea about religious life. Josh doesn't even seem to be in a seminary. He seems to be living on a parish church property, in the rectory or something. These shortcuts would be irritating in a drama but not in a musical dramedy.

Edited by DianeDobbler
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dubbel zout

dubbel zout

(edited)
16 hours ago, possibilities said:

I really don't think this show is about taking sides.

Even when I do take sides, as often as not I'm on someone else's by next week. Or even the episode's end. That's one of the things I like about the show—who I root for is always changing.

6 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

While I enjoy the Door Priest a lot, I think Father Brah's absence from the first two episodes is puzzling. He was the one who helped Josh work through his stuff.

Same here. Father Brah is a friend and a priest. It's a twofer for Josh. Brah helps him see how unsuited he is to the priesthood as well as finally acknowledge what he did to Rebecca was terrible. Rene Gube is on the writing staff, so I don't think his absence onscreen is a lack of availability.

(Fun fact I just learned: Rene Gube is married to Briga Heelan, the star of Great News on NBC.)

Edited by dubbel zout
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Rinaldo

Rinaldo

Father Brah's neighborhood church isn't attached to a seminary; Josh had to travel to find such a church where he could (he thought) train, right? So Father Brah wouldn't be involved in that. Maybe he'll show up now that Josh has to come back to earth and return home.

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Rene Gube is married to Briga Heelan, the star of Great News on NBC.)

I didn't know that! I see that they got engaged while they were both in the cast of Ground Floor (for which he also did some writing), and married after one series ended and before the other began. And she of course made a guest appearance on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, as one of the group in the "Textmergency!" episode.

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DianeDobbler

DianeDobbler

I thought Rachel Bloom did a great job in the "hot" number, Strip Away My Conscience, but there was one move - the timing of when she shook her boobs on "Who doesn't worry about what's decent or right." and her baby voice when she said "Cause somehow you don't have that sucky thing called emotions." that felt familiar. While the number was conventional and Chicago-esque, not some pretending-to-be-unique thing, there were these two specific performance moments and other aspects of her performance that made me wonder if Rachel Bloom had scene Alison Brie's Sexy Santa from Community, even though the mood is totally different.

 

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

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When Rebecca said, "Why doesn't anyone understand what I really want?" I wanted to shake her. Uhhhh, because you haven't told anyone what you really want! She was talking about sending poop cupcakes and destroying Josh, but she never actually told anyone that she wanted him to face what he did to her and be humiliated in front of everyone he knows.

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aradia22

aradia22

Ahh! Stupid DVR. Anyway...

Is this the new intro? At first I was settling into the country song (Carrie Underwood Before He Cheats/outlaw country pop) but then I of course realized it's touching on all the genres of wronged woman music. It's a little choppy and if it's the intro, it doesn't really introduce the show as well as the other ones. But I like the concept of commenting on how all those different genres share this common theme. Except the rap one. That was weird. 

That was a beautiful church they found to film in. Also, at this point I genuinely cannot tell if Vincent can sing well or not. They give Josh some songs that alter the song of his voice (boy band) but this was pretty standard and it still had an annoyingly compressed tenor sound. But he's a theater guy... Is it just autotune? But Santino sounded fine. Again, confused. The song and dance thing is a cute style for him but I wasn't crazy about the song.

"Oh, boy, we got a Maria here." XD

"Can we take a quick time out for some nonjudgmental truth time" is a brilliant thing I wish I could say to people in real life.

The Maya magazine thing was weird. Not into it. 

Not sure where we're going with Rebecca's casual misogyny 'Nathaniel is acting like a woman', etc.

CHICAGO! Sure, it was a little obvious but that was a pretty great number. Good vocals. Loved the commitment to the Fosse of it even if the choreography didn't seem that intense.

Rebecca's proposition was very Cruel Intentions. But like also... so many HR and sexual harrassment violations.

Is Nathaniel's present delivered by... butler courier supposed to be a 50 Shades of Grey reference? LOL, at Rebecca's explanation of why she wasn't wearing the things he sent her. 

Died at the helicopter. Amazing.

Still rolling my eyes at this C plot, but OK, Tim's falsetto. Okay. Felt a bit Wildhorn-y.

Rebecca's smalltalk was awkward. Not in the universe of the show but as an attempt at commentary. Like the orgasm C plot, you have to do it right or don't do it at all. Don't just awkwardly cram it in. 

"When I'm around you, I stop thinking about myself and I think about you." Awww.

I like that they made Rebecca's consent clear and we didn't have any murkiness hanging around about their deal or coercion. Also, SHE SLEPT IN HER MAKEUP!?!

I really like Father Rodrigo. I almost want Josh to keep up this nonsense B plot just so he can stick around.

Wait... did Nathaniel really put those plans into motion? I thought he was just saying that to wake Rebecca out of her thirst for actual revenge.

Loved the Rebecca confronting Josh song. More classic musical theater.

Rebecca told Josh EVERYTHING! Where do we go from here?

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aradia22

aradia22

Quote

Who are the characters that Rachel is playing in the new opening to the show? I guess the blonde is supposed to be Carrie Underwood (specifically referencing the "Before He Cheats" video), and the guy in the hoodie is Eminem I guess. Who are the brunette and the (guy?) in the leather jacket and red shirt?

I think it's Carrie Underwood but you could call out any number of current outlaw country pop singers, especially since most of them are blonde. Miranda Lambert also comes to mind. I didn't see the brunette in the gown as anyone specific. I didn't recognize the imagery of the video. It felt diva-ish though. A kind of Celine Dion, Whitney Houston sort of vibe but blander. I don't get the two male characters. I think it would have made more sense to have a singer-songwriter character (Alanis Morissette, Melissa Etheridge, etc.). I would have replaced the diva character with someone more obvious. Either an Amy Lee (Evanescence) or Beyonce or Demi Lovato. I think the rapper character could have been any number of aggressive pop punk types. I don't listen to that genre a ton.

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Rebecca and Nathaniel are pretty great right now, even if they arent super healthy. Granted, could any normal, totally well adjusted person really hold Rebecca's attention? 

Good point. I think the show has been telling us that because of Rebecca's dad leaving she tends to go after unavailable men or unstable ones even when she claims to want a stable relationship. She goes after the people who can't give that to her for any number of reasons.

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You marry her to an older sea captain. Josh needs a daddy. ?

You know that's not a bad idea. Josh is going for all these young, superficially attractive girls but maybe what he needs is someone older to take care of him a bit more. He would probably be happy being a house husband with or without kids. 

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aradia22

aradia22

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 Yet many viewers saw the "Chase to the airport" sequence as romantic rather than disturbed / deranged because we are so used to these tropes. 

I come to it as a seasoned TV viewer. I'm not saying I always choose to go along with it... but I'm used to shows trying to either overtly retcon or just brush past things they wrote and hope you forget about because "nope, this time we've got it. This is the plot we meant to write the whole time." 

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I can't use the rules of farce or comedy to excuse Nathanial but hold Josh to the rules of drama. 

This too. Not specifically referring to Nathaniel and Josh but I think the show sometimes wants to have it both ways with comedy and drama and sometimes I'm not with them on the tonal shifts.

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KaleyFirefly

KaleyFirefly

On 10/20/2017 at 11:06 PM, srpturtle80 said:

I had a really shitty day as I had to put my cat to sleep this afternoon. So I was hoping for some lighthearted fluff. It was ok, but I’m really hoping that they quickly address Rebecca’s mental health struggles. I think I did read in an interview with her that it would be addressed this season. 

Probably in the minority but I find her and Nathaniel pretty hot together. I enjoyed her song for him and the end when she tossed the thong and said “that was just up my butt” did make me LOL. 

Thought the story with Tim(?) and his wife was stupid. 

Hey, I am reading this weeks after the fact, but I'm sorry to hear about your cat.

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appledown

appledown

On 10/22/2017 at 8:28 AM, Rinaldo said:

or occasionally getting a short pull-from-the-chorus part, as in Anything Goes).

Oh wow, I saw a couple of tours of that! One of my favorite musicals. I'll have to dig out my playbills. :)

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Bruinsfan

Bruinsfan

I think ultimately I'm having trouble sympathizing with Josh because his run-from-responsibility arc isn't funny or entertaining, just pathetic. Rebecca's crazy schemes are usually fun to watch regardless of how awful what she's doing would be in the real world, likewise Nathaniel's even though killing someone's grandparent for revenge is obviously full-blown psychopathic evil.

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