These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I am expecting this and have been ever since Comic Con happened.

IIRC, Dabb said there was more to the Sam leadership stuff he couldn't talk about.  So I'm guessing Michael either wants Sam as his new vessel or he wants Sam to lead his army and is going to try and recruit him.

Dean will get to feel more guilt and have to learn that Sam is adult and to let go again. 

This is the feeling I got from comic con.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

IIRC, Dabb said there was more to the Sam leadership stuff he couldn't talk about.  So I'm guessing Michael either wants Sam as his new vessel or he wants Sam to lead his army and is going to try and recruit him.

Dean will get to feel more guilt and have to learn that Sam is adult and to let go again. 

This is the feeling I got from comic con.

 You and me both. Again.

[devlin]

I am preparing myself for the interaction between sam and Michael being that of a vessel interacting with his angel. Michael is going to realise that sam is a much better vessel than dean and will want him to help him with his cause to take over the world. sam believing he is so much better than his weak brother is going to heroically say yes to Michael and is going to foil his plans 

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, devlin said:

I am preparing myself for the interaction between sam and Michael being that of a vessel interacting with his angel. Michael is going to realise that sam is a much better vessel than dean and will want him to help him with his cause to take over the world. sam believing he is so much better than his weak brother is going to heroically say yes to Michael and is going to foil his plans 

I said this leader Sam stuff was being done for a reason.  Michael will take one look at him and be so super duper impressed he'll want him to be the supreme leader of the entire universe.  Basically the finale will be Swan Song all over again.  Dean will be lucky if he gets represetnted by a piece of plastic this time.

[Res]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

 

You and me both.

 

 

I am expecting this and have been ever since Comic Con happened.

I've never expected anything different from these writers since the middle of S5. It's beyond sad that they always do this sort of thing.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I said this leader Sam stuff was being done for a reason.  Michael will take one look at him and be so super duper impressed he'll want him to be the supreme leader of the entire universe.  Basically the finale will be Swan Song all over again.  Dean will be lucky if he gets represetnted by a piece of plastic this time.

We'll be lucky if Dean is allowed anywhere near at the end, much less represented.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Res

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I said this leader Sam stuff was being done for a reason.  Michael will take one look at him and be so super duper impressed he'll want him to be the supreme leader of the entire universe.  Basically the finale will be Swan Song all over again.  Dean will be lucky if he gets represetnted by a piece of plastic this time.

Well they already literally made him a puppet on a string. Nothing would surprise me. 

[ILoveReading]

I'd say its more likely Mary "It really is all about Me" Winchester is talking about herself but if Dean being gone leads to Sam getting to bond with Mary and discovering his place as leader of team free will, the show really is Simpsonizing Dean being gone.  Because Sam's life is improving.   How is this showing Dean is important when its really showing that Dean being gone is better for Sam. 

What exactly does Sam need Dean for?

Edited August 31, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

How is this showing Dean is important when its really showing that Dean being gone is better for Sam. 

 

 

Didnt someone say that Dean was becoming more like John in one of the intervirws at Comic con?

If so, I can see Sam being the one  who gets the chance to say what a lousy father figure Dean was.

It has the added benefit of putting the final nail in Johns memory right about t the same time Mary starts upnwith NotBobby.  Dean will come back to being upset that Mary is with someone ofher than John but Sam will be supportive and Dean will be the ousider because he said yes to Michael. For maximum angst.

However i do hope Im wrong and things fall apart without Dean LOL

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Didnt someone say that Dean was becoming more like John in one of the intervirws at Comic con?

Ugh. Did someone really say that? I must have missed it. Thankfully.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It has the added benefit of putting the final nail in Johns memory right about t the same time Mary starts upnwith NotBobby.  Dean will come back to being upset that Mary is with someone ofher than John but Sam will be supportive and Dean will be the ousider because he said yes to Michael. For maximum angst.

 Ugh again. And Blech!-but sadly, a definite possibility IMO, too.

I have to say that the Mary/NotBobby hook-up is making me think of the show as Soapernatural more than I've ever thought of it in that way before; and my stomach literally gets queasy at just the thought. I'm positive that this, at least, will constitute just more FF material for this fan. :-/

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Ugh. Did someone really say that? I must have missed it. Thankfully.

I swear I heard it or read it but I can't remember in what exact context.  OHeck, it might even have been Jensen.  But I remember it kind of jumped out at me because I was like...."Um...no.  Dean is quite different from John".  I'll see if I can find it when I get some time.

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I have to say that the Mary/NotBobby hook-up is making me think of the show as Soapernatural

It really is. And funny how all we hear from Jared is that romance is not a part of the show. Guess that's changed.  And not for the better IMO

[catrox14]

 I just see no fucking point in Mary and Not!Bobby being a thing for any reason. It's stupid.  It's kind of messed up for Not!Bobby to because he clearly had a thing for AU!Mary and now he's thinking he's getting her back?  It's just ...gross. People are not interchangeable, writers!

[ILoveReading]

It must have been taxing on the staff to write those two episodes.  We already know that Deans' back by episode 4. 

Quote

The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. Plus, the series now has a villain played by one of its original leading men.

So Dean's presence somehow prevents the show from writing scenes between Jack and Cas and Mary and Bobby?

I've said before.  Dabb sucks. 

[Aeryn13]

Who kept them from writing Cas or Jack or Not!Bobby or even the IceQueen? It's not like Dean had a super big story or presence last Season or was even around in apoca-world for the majority of the Season.

Also, they can't even handle two episodes without Dean?

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Who kept them from writing Cas or Jack or Not!Bobby or even the IceQueen? It's not like Dean had a super big story or presence last Season or was even around in apoca-world for the majority of the Season.

Also, they can't even handle two episodes without Dean?

Two episodes.  I knew Dabb and co. were lazy. 

It sounds like its Dabb's excuse to focus on every character not named Dean.  After all somehow Dean's non-presence in most of the last two seasons somehow prevented Cas from bonding with Jack, and Mary from shacking up with Bobby.

Dean's gone what 3 weeks and his so-called family is already looking for 'breathing room"

[Res]

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Two episodes.  I knew Dabb and co. were lazy. 

It sounds like its Dabb's excuse to focus on every character not named Dean.  After all somehow Dean's non-presence in most of the last two seasons somehow prevented Cas from bonding with Jack, and Mary from shacking up with Bobby.

Dean's gone what 3 weeks and his so-called family is already looking for 'breathing room"

Dabb sucks so hard!!!!!! I'm so tired of this type of writing for Dean. It's not even a drinking game at this point because my liver has died already from it (figuratively). IF I have time, I really am thinking about blasting Dabb so hard during the show without the tag and not watching my recordings for at least 7 days just because I don't want to give him or the show (because it's HIS show at this point) any ratings. Maybe if more people did that, TPTB would reconsider Dabb as a showrunner.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA! 

I crack myself up. Who am I kidding? At this point the show's sinking with Dabb, Singer and their stupid Soapernatural WS that barely has anything to do with the original premise or characters anymore. *sigh*

*I need another drink, for real.*

*Just laughing to keep from crying over the mockery they've made of the show.*

Bolded part - According to Sam, he was looking for breathing room while Dean was there so the others are not surprising. That's why I find Dabb's comment hysterically sad. But I guess it is hard to write the show without the chauffer, cheerleader, whipping boy of the group. Who else can they blame when things go wrong? Who else will accept the blame when he didn't do it? Who else will they teach lessons to? etc.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Res

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Two episodes.  I knew Dabb and co. were lazy. 

It sounds like its Dabb's excuse to focus on every character not named Dean.  After all somehow Dean's non-presence in most of the last two seasons somehow prevented Cas from bonding with Jack, and Mary from shacking up with Bobby.

Dean's gone what 3 weeks and his so-called family is already looking for 'breathing room"

Moved to b v j.

Edited September 4, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

LOL so the only way they can write other characters is to sideline Dean?  My gods. There are no words for how hilariously bad that makes the writers look, or its confirmation that they cannot allow Dean to have something with anyone other than Sam or Cas, under Dabb and Singer's regime.  WTF lol

[gonzosgirrl]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL so the only way they can write other characters is to sideline Dean?  My gods. There are no words for how hilariously bad that makes the writers look, or its confirmation that they cannot allow Dean to have something with anyone other than Sam or Cas, under Dabb and Singer's regime.  WTF lol

It takes some balls to put something like that out there in the universe. It's a bonus to not to have to write for one of your lead characters because it frees up storylines for other 'fan favs'. Wow.

I'd like to know who all these people are that have been clamoring for more Mary and Not!Bobby.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd like to know who all these people are that have been clamoring for more Mary and Not!Bobby.

Seriously! WTF?! I am legit flabbergasted that Dabb said what he said. It's absurd.

Edited September 4, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

I'm still trying to figure out how Dabb is showing that Dean's important.  All I'm seeing is that somehow Dean was suffocating all the other characters.

With Dean only spending about a week with Mary at the most last year he somehow prevented her from having a relationship with Bobby.

Despite Cas being dead for most of the early season and Dean wanting nothing to do with Jack he somehow prevented Cas from bonding with Jack.

Despite Dean having gone to purgatory and hell, Sam had plenty of opportunities to step up and lead but he chose to follow, but somehow Dean still prevented that too.

Does Dabb even hear himself when he talks. 

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously! WTF?! I am legit flabbergasted that Dabb said what he said. It's absurd.

 

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Does Dabb even hear himself when he talks. 

Clearly, he doesn't-which is why, IMO, he should not be trusted to give interviews or have anything whatsoever to do with the publicity part of this show.

Oh, and he should re-watch the entire series from Day One before he writes another word for it, IMO also-especially the last three seasons. He can't help/fix the damage that he's already done through his attempts at showrunning and/or explaining himself and his "vision" via his most recent interviews, but he might be able to minimize any further/potential damage in both areas, if he would do that.

[catrox14]

For all the weird, confusing things coming from Dabb and Singer/Buck Lemming, during and since, SDCC, Dabb's comments in that TV Line article seem ill considered. So much so that I've been trying to find some way for it to make sense for Dean's character. So to that end here are some additional thoughts FWIW:

IMO, the only way I can see Dabb keeping Dean important during the AU Michael!Dean arc is to have everyone else in Dean's life solely focused on saving him so much so that Sam and Cas spend all of their time during the first two or three episodes talking about how important he is to them and to their lives which seems incongruous with what he's saying about giving "breathing room" to these other characters. 

Now, since there will be a time jump according to Jensen, the immediate emotional reaction to Dean's loss is likely not going to be shown, other than flashbacks. I can't reconcile those apparent opposite intentions coming out of his comments. I haven't seen any comments from TPTB that implied that when they pick up the story that Sam nor Cas is going to be solely focused on saving Dean because Sam is going to be dealing with his team of hunters and Cas will be dealing with Jack.

And as such, I keep coming back to Dabb's 'joke' at Comic Con about Dean not returning to the show and Jensen's reaction. Jensen didn't really laugh. I thought he had a peculiar look, something knowing. I thought it was strange that Jensen didn't joke back on that one and say something like 'Yep, totally not coming back'  which would have told me that it's a ridiculous idea that Dean was never returning but he didn't. I'm going to look for some gifs or that part of the panel and then you all can judge for yourselves that little moments but with these new comments from Dabb, but I'm not really sure that Dabb was actually not serious.

So, what if, and yes this is a huge and highly unlikely IF, Jensen is leaving to do something else for a little while and the challenge Dabb is facing is getting the audience used to being without Dean by shifting it's focus to the other "fan faves" .  IMO, that's the only reason it would make sense for Dabb to say what he said unless Dabb  really does think Dean has overshadowed other characters development and that is whole other conversation.

I'm just kind of flummoxed here.

[Myrelle]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And as such, I keep coming back to Dabb's 'joke' at Comic Con about Dean not returning to the show and Jensen's reaction. Jensen didn't really laugh. I thought he had a peculiar look, something knowing. I thought it was strange that Jensen didn't joke back on that one and say something like 'Yep, totally not coming back'  which would have told me that it's a ridiculous idea that Dean was never returning but he didn't. I'm going to look for some gifs or that part of the panel and then you all can judge for yourselves that little moments but with these new comments from Dabb, but I'm not really sure that Dabb was actually not serious.

I am very interested in this and would like to see it and would appreciate it if you could do that for us as I don't have a whole lot of time for these kind of internet endeavors these days, so thank you in advance for any efforts you could put towards this one.

[Aeryn13]

I think this interview is ill-considered. Dabb even mentioned Demon!Dean`s "one and done" stint. I mean, once October rolls around, everyone can see how long (or short) Michael!Dean will be around and if it is indeed only 2 episodes, this will look like such silly whining. 

Now I doubt there will be true Jensen-less episodes. Dabb and the Nep Duo might love the thought (deep down) but IMO neither the network nor the studio would be overjoyed and even Dabb/Singer know they have the "waaaah, brothers" twitter crowd on their hands. That`s why their storytelling is always so ball-less and they never take any risks with story structure. 

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think this interview is ill-considered.

I think most everything Dabb does (and has done) as showrunner is ill-considered, at least with regard to the Winchesters and their canon.

I'm still trying to figure out who he thinks he's pleasing by putting Mary and Not!Bobby together. That's a true head-scratcher to me, while his apparent relief at having room to write for them (and his other pets) since Dean is out of the picture. I didn't take the 'room to breathe' as it being the characters who need(ed) (regarding Dean), but rather the storytellers. I still can't believe he said it out loud.

[Res]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

For all the weird, confusing things coming from Dabb and Singer/Buck Lemming, during and since, SDCC, Dabb's comments in that TV Line article seem ill considered. So much so that I've been trying to find some way for it to make sense for Dean's character. So to that end here are some additional thoughts FWIW:

IMO, the only way I can see Dabb keeping Dean important during the AU Michael!Dean arc is to have everyone else in Dean's life solely focused on saving him so much so that Sam and Cas spend all of their time during the first two or three episodes talking about how important he is to them and to their lives which seems incongruous with what he's saying about giving "breathing room" to these other characters. 

Now, since there will be a time jump according to Jensen, the immediate emotional reaction to Dean's loss is likely not going to be shown, other than flashbacks. I can't reconcile those apparent opposite intentions coming out of his comments. I haven't seen any comments from TPTB that implied that when they pick up the story that Sam nor Cas is going to be solely focused on saving Dean because Sam is going to be dealing with his team of hunters and Cas will be dealing with Jack.

And as such, I keep coming back to Dabb's 'joke' at Comic Con about Dean not returning to the show and Jensen's reaction. Jensen didn't really laugh. I thought he had a peculiar look, something knowing. I thought it was strange that Jensen didn't joke back on that one and say something like 'Yep, totally not coming back'  which would have told me that it's a ridiculous idea that Dean was never returning but he didn't. I'm going to look for some gifs or that part of the panel and then you all can judge for yourselves that little moments but with these new comments from Dabb, but I'm not really sure that Dabb was actually not serious.

So, what if, and yes this is a huge and highly unlikely IF, Jensen is leaving to do something else for a little while and the challenge Dabb is facing is getting the audience used to being without Dean by shifting it's focus to the other "fan faves" .  IMO, that's the only reason it would make sense for Dabb to say what he said unless Dabb  really does think Dean has overshadowed other characters development and that is whole other conversation.

I'm just kind of flummoxed here.

While I love your post, I wish you wouldn't get my hopes up this way! JJ. ;-)

[ILoveReading]

Quote

SUPERNATURAL

Michael still wants to purify the world, but now that he’s loose on our earth — in Dean’s body, no less! — “his method is going to change,” executive producer Andrew Dabb previews. Back at the bunker, little bro Sam and heavenly pal Castiel are “extremely driven to find Dean,” with the latter even seeking help from “certain people, possibly with black eyes, who he would not normally contact.” Despite their efforts, “Sam, ultimately, and even Cas, to a degree, are a little pessimistic,” the EP says. “They’re not sure if it’s going to work out.” The Winchesters’ mom, Mary, however, “is optimistic, but sometimes that optimism can be very annoying.” Meanwhile, powerless Jack is back to hunter basics, “learning how to throw a punch [and] decapitate a vampire,” with the help of Bobby. Up in Heaven, Naomi and the few remaining angels are “trying to hold everything together.” As for the dark side, “we’re going to get a really good preview of what’s going on in Hell, actually, in the first episode,” Dabb teases.

https://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2018-season-premiere-spoilers/#!35/igods-and-monstersi/

Just when you think Dabb can't get worse.  It been what 3 weeks (and most of that off screen) and Sam's getting ready to give up, and it sounds like Mary is annoyed she has to actually put forth the effort. 

Really with a family like Dean's who really needs enemies.

Quote

BONUS SPOILER!: In Episode 4, “Sam and Dean and our whole crew get involved in our homage to ’80s slasher movies,” Dabb shares. “We’ve got some really cool gory stuff planned for that.”

Confirmation Dean is back by episode 4. 

Why is Bobby training Jack.  Shouldn't that be Sam or Cas.  it seems backwards.  It seems Bobby should be leading the AU hunters, against Dean, and Sam and Cas should be training Jack.

R

Edited September 5, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Lemuria]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Just when you think Dabb can't get worse.  It been what 3 weeks (and most of that off screen) and Sam's getting ready to give up, and it sounds like Mary is annoyed she has to actually put forth the effort. 

Dabb doesn't seem to realize--if Sam is indeed giving up after only a short amount of time--how bad this makes Sam look, especially after the infamous Incident of the Injured Dog.

And while I yield to no one in my dislike of Mary since her return, I did read that line differently:  That Mary is being so relentlessly optimistic about getting Dean back that she's annoying everyone else.  To which I respond, "Well, then, phooey on everyone else."  Clearly, hanging around Dean all this time did not help Sam, Cas and Company to acquire even an iota of his refusal to quit on trying to save the people around him.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

And while I yield to no one in my dislike of Mary since her return, I did read that line differently:  That Mary is being so relentlessly optimistic about getting Dean back that she's annoying everyone else.  To which I respond, "Well, then, phooey on everyone else."  Clearly, hanging around Dean all this time did not help Sam, Cas and Company to acquire even an iota of his refusal to quit on trying to save the people around him.

Your probably right about Mary.  I might have read the line too quickly, but that makes it worse with Sam and Cas.  If they're getting annoyed at her being optimistic that doesn't show they have a lot of faith in Dean. 

It's like Dabb is trying to course correct with Mary but dropping everyone else under the bus.  I'd hope it plays out better than it sounds but..... it's Dabb.

[Aeryn13]

They are pessimistic after two episodes? Also IceQueenMary of all people is optimistic and she is annoying everyone with it? Because they really would like to give up even sooner or what? And he really does confirm Dean is in episode 4 so unless this is a flashback episode or in Dean`s mind, what the hell? Dabb is really whining at the highest order now. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They are pessimistic after two episodes? Also IceQueenMary of all people is optimistic and she is annoying everyone with it? Because they really would like to give up even sooner or what? And he really does confirm Dean is in episode 4 so unless this is a flashback episode or in Dean`s mind, what the hell? Dabb is really whining at the highest order now. 

I don't even think we're going to get much Michael or Jensen in the first episode.  Based on sightings of Jensen is Austin it sounds like he might have filmed 2-3 days.  Which translates to about 10-15 minutes of screen time. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t mind the amount of screentime if it`s well-spend. Which, yeah, can`t expect quality writing here. 

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They are pessimistic after two episodes? Also IceQueenMary of all people is optimistic and she is annoying everyone with it? Because they really would like to give up even sooner or what? And he really does confirm Dean is in episode 4 so unless this is a flashback episode or in Dean`s mind, what the hell? Dabb is really whining at the highest order now. 

I wish he would just shut the hell up at this point. Everything he says is contradictory to what others have said and even to what he, himself, has said in most of these interviews/Q and As since Comic Con happened and he's making this season sound like a mess already.

[AwesomO4000]

28 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Clearly, hanging around Dean all this time did not help Sam, Cas and Company to acquire even an iota of his refusal to quit on trying to save the people around him.

Never mind that, it conflicts with what we saw of Sam in season 10 who didn't give up on finding Dean and even did all sorts of shady things in the process of looking for him.

33 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Dabb doesn't seem to realize--if Sam is indeed giving up after only a short amount of time--how bad this makes Sam look, especially after the infamous Incident of the Injured Dog.

Taken to "Bitch vs Jerk" just in case.

34 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Your probably right about Mary.  I might have read the line too quickly, but that makes it worse with Sam and Cas.  If they're getting annoyed at her being optimistic that doesn't show they have a lot of faith in Dean. 

It's like Dabb is trying to course correct with Mary but dropping everyone else under the bus.  I'd hope it plays out better than it sounds but..... it's Dabb.

For me this sort of makes sense if they are going for a Sam can't take the pressure as leader angle - which is what I have been expecting for a while based on the set up. It just annoys me that they are taking one of the few positive traits Sam has left - in that usually he's the optimistic one (see seasons 5, 7, 10, and 11... and maybe 9) - and apparently giving that role to Mary. But maybe the message is that Sam isn't so optimistic unless he has Dean around... which I can entirely see as being the message here, since it's pretty much what I've been saying (i.e. that I didn't expect a "Sam can do this without Dean" message.)

So yeah, pretty much what I expected, actually.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me this sort of makes sense if they are going for a Sam can't take the pressure as leader angle - which is what I have been expecting for a while based on the set up. It just annoys me that they are taking one of the few positive traits Sam has left - in that usually he's the optimistic one (see seasons 5, 7, 10, and 11... and maybe 9) - and apparently giving that role to Mary. But maybe the message is that Sam isn't so optimistic unless he has Dean around... which I can entirely see as being the message here, since it's pretty much what I've been saying (i.e. that I didn't expect a "Sam can do this without Dean" message.)

So yeah, pretty much what I expected, actually.

I don't get this vibe.  Just the opposite.  I get the feeling that Sam is flourishing, and that he's organizing everyone successfully.  Dabb said its a big storyline for him and there was stuff he couldn't talk about.  It's been building the last two season.  I don't see them setting him up to fail.  Especially with all the kiddie table stuff coming up again last year.

Edited September 5, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Up in Heaven, Naomi and the few remaining angels are “trying to hold everything together.”

Oh dear god, NOBODY CARES.

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

The Winchesters’ mom, Mary, however, “is optimistic, but sometimes that optimism can be very annoying.”

Sounds like either a) Dabb finally realizing what a relentless bitch he's made her and is windmillling to correct or, b) Mary is optimistic that Dean can/will overcome Michael and is too busy boning not!Bobby to bother about looking for him.

Mostly I get a Dean who? vibe from it all. He's just the catalyst for everyone else to do something good/great. I'll be surprised if there aren't more marionette scenes.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't get this vibe.  Just the opposite.  I get the feeling that Sam is flourishing, and that he's organizing everyone successfully.  Dabb said its a big storyline for him and there was stuff he couldn't talk about.  It's been building the last two season. I don't see them setting him up to fail.  Especially with all the kiddie table stuff coming up again last year.

I do. How would Mary being the optimistic rallying cry, Castiel taking the initiative to contact outside sources, and Bobby training Jack be showing Sam as a great leader? A leader as a showing the few remaining alternate universe people that he didn't manage to get killed last season how Netflix works maybe. According to the spoilers here, Sam has apparently given up on thinking that they can find/help Dean - that is literally his only arc teased for the spoilers - there's no mention of the alternate universe people, Castiel is the one contacting potentially demon sources concerning locating/helping Dean, and Mary is the one with faith in Dean and/or that they will find a way.

I wouldn't be surprised if, much like season 8, Dean finds his own way back or outside sources help him - like those rumblings in hell they teased above or the Wayward Sisters somehow, and we get a season of guilty Sam again who's accused of having little faith in his brother and now is being a jerk, because he feels like he let Dean down. Again. As I said, we don't even have an optimistic Sam like we usually do. Who exactly is going to follow a pessimistic leader who doesn't think they have a chance of winning? To me, the set up makes no sense if they are supposedly going to show me a leader Sam. And a Sam who is a "good leader" for the two or three weeks it takes him to lose his optimism doesn't count as a real leader... that's a leader who quits when the going gets tough and doesn't last past the flashback / time passing montage.

The only thing for me that has been building the last two seasons is that when Sam leads, he generally fails - as we saw at the end of last season... and that was when Sam was optimistic. So he's supposed to be a better leader when he's not optimistic? That makes no sense, and I don't see the story headed that way. That kind of thing only works when it's a comedy. Which this show isn't.

I mean, yeah I could be wrong about this. It has been known to happen. It just seems unlikely to me based on the set up and now the spoilers. A non-optimistic Sam pretty much seems to be the nail in the coffin for me of any hints of a "leader Sam." And a "leader Sam" who has to get cheerleading inspiration from his mother? Oh, shoot me now. I would rather they left Sam as he was. Sam for me was fine as not the leader, and I found nothing wrong or "lazy" about that (and was insulted by the implication.) But if in the absence of Dean, a 30-something Sam can only lead after being cheered on by his optimistic mother, I think that will pretty much make his character a punchline, in my opinion.

[Bobcatkitten]

I wonder how much time has passed with Michael in Dean. Two episodes to us but months to them? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I do. How would Mary being the optimistic rallying cry, Castiel taking the initiative to contact outside sources, and Bobby training Jack

Bobby training Jack seems largely unrelated to anything to do with Dean. Dabb said Cas agrees with Sam`s pessimism and more importantly that Mary`s optimism was basically annoying. So her "optimism" is not gonna be framed as a good thing. I think they will play Sam as being right in being pessimistic. Obviously, Dean will be back in no time but that doesn`t mean they can`t pretend Sam is just wise and mature for his attitude. 

Then obviously, Dean will be untrusted, at least by the AU hunters who have by then grown to listen to General Sam Winchester and he will be traumatized & guilty aka weak and incompetent. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dabb said Cas agrees with Sam`s pessimism

Well, actually the spoilers say Sam "ultimately" (but depending on how much time has passed, that's not saying much) "and even Cas 'to a degree'" which isn't the same thing to me and leaves wiggle room as to Castiel not being as pessimistic. And Cas's foray into contacting people "who he would not normally contact" says to me that at least Castiel is still trying.

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they will play Sam as being right in being pessimistic. Obviously, Dean will be back in no time but that doesn`t mean they can`t pretend Sam is just wise and mature for his attitude.

These two things seem very contradictory to me, and I'm not really seeing how pretending that Sam was "wise and mature" makes any kind of sense in context... not to mention that Sam's pessimism is generally out of character to begin with, in my opinion, and so likely just making Sam fit some kind of plot point rather than actually following Sam's characterization.

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then obviously, Dean will be untrusted, at least by the AU hunters who have by then grown to listen to General Sam Winchester

Which would again point to Sam not being a very good leader, because if the AU hunters actually listened to Sam, then they shouldn't be untrusting of Dean, unless Sam is also untrusting of Dean - which would make Sam look like a complete jerk. So in your scenario here, either Sam looks like a complete jerk, or he's not really a good leader... it would be lose-lose either way, in my opinion... Not to mention, again, out of character, in my opinion, since for me, Sam isn't usually happy as being leader if he doesn't have to be - and as I've said before, I was perfectly fine with that.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

These two things seem very contradictory to me, and I'm not really seeing how pretending that Sam was "wise and mature" makes any kind of sense in context.

I think it`s supposed to be in the same way as Sam being mature at the start of Season 8. Where I personally think he acted like a jerk but the narrative was focused on Dean being wrong. 

Quote

Which would again point to Sam not being a very good leader, because if the AU hunters actually listened to Sam, then they shouldn't be untrusting of Dean

Normally, they should be untrusting of anyone who isn`t gonna be "faster pussycat, kill, kill, kill" in regards to Michael and as such should be in opposition to Sam (and Cas and Mary) but we`ve heard that Sam will be their leader. 

At the very least, they should be side-eying anyone who is in close connection to Michael, though, especially a former vessel so them not looking at him with scorn and distrust would be insane and in no way a reflection of Sam. I just mean, they will have gotten to know Sam and obviously have learned to follow his lead. Dean will be the gum under their shoe when he gets back. Any other dynamic would be ludicrous with what they`ve set up and spoiled so far. 

And I`m really not looking forward to that "hero and zero" thing playing out ad infinitum. It was bad enough when Dean was just among General Sam`s audience of flunkies in "Who we are", seeing him relegated to pariah status even below that is not really something I`m looking forward to. But how could it be anything else realistically?

[Res]

"  11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I keep trying to reach Zen and then Dabb opens his mouth again....  I want to believe."

I gave up on Zen after 10.03 and I refuse to allow TPTB (AKA Dabb/Singer) the satisfaction of setting me up again for a huge disappointment. So now I'm just settling for the stupid mediocre Soupernatural writing for these characters that I care nothing about in the hopes of getting a glimpse of my fav character who once made this show what it was. Heaven forbid, they should ever actually build on him or give him any real story line.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Res
Typo

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

At the very least, they should be side-eying anyone who is in close connection to Michael, though, especially a former vessel so them not looking at him with scorn and distrust would be insane and in no way a reflection of Sam. I just mean, they will have gotten to know Sam and obviously have learned to follow his lead. Dean will be the gum under their shoe when he gets back. Any other dynamic would be ludicrous with what they`ve set up and spoiled so far. 

But Sam will be associating with and trusting Dean, so theoretically that should lose him any points he might have had with the AU people. In your scenario, it would be like a leader all of a sudden being buddy-buddy with a rival and favoring that rival over their interests. Any good will should believably go shoop out the window in a heartbeat. And if Sam doesn't choose Dean over the AU people, again this will make him look like a jerk and the Worst. Brother. Ever. To me, a scenario where Sam associates with a not accepted by the AU Dean is most believably likely to end up in one of my above two scenarios... neither one positive for Sam. An AU group that doesn't trust Dean but is still willing to follow a Sam who does trust and associate with Dean makes no sense, and a Sam who appeases the group by dissing or questioning Dean looks like a poser jerk.

If this is the set up, I really don't see how it can be anything but a lose-lose scenario for Sam. Sadly the best scenario is that the group turns against Sam - meaning he fails at being a leader - but Sam says that he doesn't care because Dean is more important. That's the best scenario, and one I can only hope the writers let happen. Somehow, though, I think Sam may fail as leader because of his association with Dean and then Sam will be angry / frustrated / annoyed with Dean about it and blame him like a six year old - for the drama - even though it makes little sense for his character that Sam should care about being leader, and it will make him look like a jerk.

Sadly, I'm now hoping for my originally hypothesized "Sam is a bad leader" scenario, since it is less depressing than any of these scenarios.

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it`s supposed to be in the same way as Sam being mature at the start of Season 8. Where I personally think he acted like a jerk but the narrative was focused on Dean being wrong.

Except for the parts where Sam didn't look mature at all, was ultimately wrong (since Benny was good), and his character was pretty much wrecked for me for a while. Again this is not encouraging and doesn't bode well for Sam, in my opinion.

[catrox14]

I found that clip from Comic Con with Jensen's reaction to Dabb's joke about Dean not returning to the show.  He talks about how Christian taught him his coat flip for Michael and then it leads Dabb's joke.  It starts around 8:56.

Make of it what you will.

[Myrelle]

Thanks, Catrox. I think he smiled somewhat knowingly, but he didn't laugh like he did at the next joke that Dabb made about how with the absence of Dean, he(Dabb) tried to give more jokes to Misha but it didn't work.

I just wish that I didn't get the feeling from Dabb that he sees Dean as, first and foremost, the comedy relief guy on this show. It really rankles, and especially if one takes S12 into consideration.

Yes, Dean IS funny, but it shouldn't be his primary role within the storyboard, just as not being strictly the supportive and/or go-to emo guy for the writers and their writing should be his primary role either. Dean is a badass hunter-and still the Best Hunter on the Planet, IMO too. And THAT should be his primary role on the show. Again IMO.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[Bobcatkitten]

46 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Thanks, Catrox. I think he smiled somewhat knowingly, but he didn't laugh like he did at the next joke that Dabb made about how with the absence of Dean, he(Dabb) tried to give more jokes to Misha but it didn't work.

I just wish that I didn't get the feeling from Dabb that he sees Dean as, first and foremost, the comedy relief guy on this show. It really rankles, and especially if one takes S12 into consideration.

Yes, Dean IS funny, but it shouldn't be his primary role within the storyboard, just as not being strictly the supportive and/or go-to emo guy for the writers and their writing should be his primary role either. Dean is a badass hunter-and still the Best Hunter on the Planet, IMO too. And THAT should be his primary role on the show. Again IMO.

I'm sorry. I can't stop focusing on Jensen's eyelashes...

[Pondlass1]

I can't make out what Dabb says?

I appreciate the Jensen closeups very much.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm sorry. I can't stop focusing on Jensen's eyelashes...

LOL I had the EXACT problem. He has gorgeous eyelashes!

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I can't make out what Dabb says?

I appreciate the Jensen closeups very much.

Rob asks Dabb "What's it like crafting the show, what's it like balancing who...what Dean as a character is vs what he becomes...you know possessed by Michael?"

Dabb answers with "Dean is Michael. Dean is there. He's aware of what's going on, but...he's not really coming to the fore.  So, Dean's Michael and Dean, of course, will not be returning to the show". 

Some fans laughed, some were booing, others were like  "oh nooooo" . IMO, it was an awkward out of kilter attempt at humor but IMO but with an element of truth. 

Rich then wonders about the differences between Dean and Michael in the writing, word choices, speech patterns and then asks "Does any of Dean every seep out, is there any sort of mix of the two with this creation".

Dabb answers "With Michael, I mean..Dean is a funny character, pop culture savvy, and Michael is none of those things. I do think some of Dean's (I think Dabb says "fantasies", but it's not clear) come out occasionally. But Michael is not a funny character necessarily, which is a problem for the show because we tried to give Misha more jokes but none of it works".

Now, combining that with Jensen, elsewhere, talking about asking for Rich's help with making sure he's got Michael on track, I think Rich's question was a lot more specific about Michael because Dabb hadn't given Jensen any input on what he wants for that character and for Dean.  I suspect at Comic Con,  Dabb didn't know what Jensen ( I guess with Rich's help) was doing with Michael and IMO he may not have written much for Michael/Dean for 14.1 given how little Jensen seemed to be on set at the time 14.1 was filming. I think it's going to be BL who are writing 14.2, will write the most for Michael which really scares me TBH.

I am thinking that Sister Jo will have more to do with Michael in 14.2 given Jensen said he was worried about that scene at the round table interviews. I wonder if Sister Jo offers herself to Michael like she did Lucifer. BL sexualized the relationship between Sister Jo and Lucifer and had her hitch her survival wagon to him. Now that he's supposedly dead, I wouldn't be that surprised if she tried to do the same thing with Michael!Dean.  

I think it's possible Michael will dig through Dean's mind, and finds memories of her betraying TFW to Lucifer at the hotel room and maybe Dean is thinking, "That chick nearly got us all killed" and maybe he wants some payback for that. Maybe that's how Michael ends up in a scene with Sister Jo. Or she seeks him out. IIRC there was no love lost between Sister Jo and TFW after she sold them out to Lucifer and was his "Queen".  

One thing I really DO NOT WANT is to find out that Dean, during the hot minute he met Sister Jo now has a thing for her because ....hur durr...it's Jensen's RL WIFE!  Just don't do that show.  Please don't. It's not good for Dean's character even if you think it's "tee hee inside joke funny".  I mean not ALL SPN viewers know who is married to whom after all.

[Bobcatkitten]

I doubt there is any romantic storyline for Jo and Michael simply because Danneel was clear on the commentary that she didn't want to come in and be a love interest. If I remember correctly Michael reaches out to Anael/Jo in regards to heaven being on life support.