A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Joanh23]

after all the angst of S5 I'll be quite happy for Emma/Hook to take more of a back seat in S6.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

The main goal of 5B was to save Hook and defeat Hades. Neither of these things were remotely relative to Regina until the very end. Besides the fact it helped Zelena see the error of her ways, the Mills family drama was largely a detour. My point is that Regina hasn't been able to be involved to the main plot or objective.

Started off just to save Hook. (Defeat Hades wasn't even a thing until Hades himself made it one.)  After Save Hook, wasn't it Operation Firebird? Which was to give all the dawdling souls closure.  Regina contributed to that objective way more than Emma did, since she got to help her father, her mother, and a horse move on.  

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She's always just along for the ride because of her BFF or her town being in peril. 

Not to mention the genius son she did such a grand job of raising being in peril.  First Neverland, now...

[Serena]

Characters being married is only a problem if the writers make it one. Case in point, if Emma and Hook had been married in season 5, their story really wouldn't have changed significantly.

[KingOfHearts]

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Started off just to save Hook. (Defeat Hades wasn't even a thing until Hades himself made it one.)  After Save Hook, wasn't it Operation Firebird? Which was to give all the dawdling souls closure.  Regina contributed to that objective way more than Emma did, since she got to help her father, her mother, and a horse move on.  

I'm not sure what to think about Operation Firebird. At the end of the day, it was more of a side quest to keep characters busy and give them closure. Earlier in the arc, it was framed as a method to slowly chip away at Hades. But there are still plenty of people stuck in the Underworld, and Arthur will presumably continue to carry out Firebird anyway. I would argue a lot of the closure in 5B was unnecessary. (Except for Cora and perhaps Milah.) Hades' defeat and Hook's rescue had nothing to do with the amount of souls saved.

Edited May 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I've felt like Regina's been on her own separate show since 3B.

I think this is more of a reflection on the writers not knowing how to write a heroic Regina and don't know how to properly integrate her into other stories. They're pretty open about preferring to write for the Evil Queen, but they're stuck with "boring and nice" Regina in the present timeline. They didn't know how to integrate her into the Frozen stuff, they gave her the atrocious Author plot in 4B, they didn't know how to properly use her in 5A so she got stuck being a "good friend" by abusing the dagger, and then they had her be hypocritical to Zelena in the Underworld plot. I think killing Robin was necessary in a way to reboot Regina's character and make her more relevant again.

[RadioGirl27]

18 minutes ago, Curio said:

I think this is more of a reflection on the writers not knowing how to write a heroic Regina and don't know how to properly integrate her into other stories.

Yeah, this is the real problem, not Hook and Emma. A&E doesn't know what to do with Regina anymore. They have given her everything she wanted so fast and with so little struggle that now they are stucked with a character they don't like anymore. That's why they have killed Robin, so they can reboot her and bring her back to square one.

[tri4335]

49 minutes ago, Curio said:

I think this is more of a reflection on the writers not knowing how to write a heroic Regina and don't know how to properly integrate her into other stories. They're pretty open about preferring to write for the Evil Queen, but they're stuck with "boring and nice" Regina in the present timeline. They didn't know how to integrate her into the Frozen stuff, they gave her the atrocious Author plot in 4B, they didn't know how to properly use her in 5A so she got stuck being a "good friend" by abusing the dagger, and then they had her be hypocritical to Zelena in the Underworld plot. I think killing Robin was necessary in a way to reboot Regina's character and make her more relevant again.

Exactly but I would go one step further and say it is not just that they don't know how to write Regina unless she's evil but that LP is not memorable unless she is chewing up the screen as the EQ or super snarky Regina being mean.  By screen time, OUAT is not the CS show despite what people claim.  But JMO and and CO sell it and therefore have more impact in the episode.  Everyone remembers their scenes either fondly if they like them or disdainfully if they don't but either way their scenes are remembered. Case in point, the CS reunion scene was 40 seconds but everyone is talking about how either they loved it or they hated it.  Everyone wants more Cruella and the Blind Witch because the actresses playing them are making an impact with very little screen time and in some cases one line.  In the AU finale, Ginny knocked it out of the park as the EQ where LP to me was meh as the bandit. Most of the chatter about OQ has been that it is bland and not noteworthy so I think A & E decided it time to change it. We'll have to wait and see if that move improves Regina's story line or not. 

And one more thing, it is not CS that is limiting Regina's time, it was the addition of Zelena IMO.  Zelena is EQ on steroids so I think some of the writing that may have gone to LP was then given to RM.  When she came along, it was Zelena hanging out with Rumple and getting all the snark.  Regina got shuffled off to hang out with Henry and lets face acting against RC ups your game when acting in scenes with a kid generally does not.

Edited May 11, 2016 by tri4335
Adding one more point

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

The main goal of 5B was to save Hook and defeat Hades. Neither of these things were remotely relative to Regina until the very end. Besides the fact it helped Zelena see the error of her ways, the Mills family drama was largely a detour. My point is that Regina hasn't been able to be involved to the main plot or objective. She's always just along for the ride because of her BFF or her town being in peril. 

I've felt like Regina's been on her own separate show since 3B.

Operation Firebird had little to do with saving Hook either, and yet it took up most of the screentime in 5B. Regina's main focus in 5B was to reconcile with her family and to help move their redemption forward one way or the other. Operation 4B was all about Regina's Happy Ending. I don't get why 4B is not considered her story. I guess we just see things differently in this case. :-)

[YaddaYadda]

Regina also got to be the hero of the finale because she sacrificed herself for Henry, and her awesome Savior blood was used to write everyone out of the AU.

[KingOfHearts]

31 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Operation Firebird had little to do with saving Hook either, and yet it took up most of the screentime in 5B. Regina's main focus in 5B was to reconcile with her family and to help move their redemption forward one way or the other. Operation 4B was all about Regina's Happy Ending. I don't get why 4B is not considered her story. I guess we just see things differently in this case. :-)

With 4B, Operation Mongoose was simply the instigator. As the arc went on, Regina became more and more irrelevant. In the end, she didn't even need the Author for her happy ending. She didn't have much focus at all in 4B, imo. She got buried under the Queens of Darkness, Lily, Isaac, and Rumple's plot for Heroes and Villains. It was never really about her.

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Regina also got to be the hero of the finale because she sacrificed herself for Henry, and her awesome Savior blood was used to write everyone out of the AU

She sacrificed herself for Henry, but it wasn't to fix the AU. She just didn't want her son to die. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Conversation should probably be moved to the Regina thread.

[Camera One]

With this show, you only get two choices: angst or nothing.  And then the question is whether you get well-written angst or poorly written angst.  On the whole, I think the angst given to Emma/Hook seems to be slightly better thought out, meant to allow one or the other to reach particular emotional milestones... trust and letting her walls down for Emma, and redemption and starting to forgive himself for Hook.  Even in 4B, when CS didn't have a plotline, many of the episodes included a quiet conversation between Emma and Hook, something that a CS fan could enjoy.  That's as good as it can possibly get with this show and these writers.  Fans of other characters like Belle, or other relationships like Snowing/Emma or Emma/Henry, can only wish wistfully on a star for just that.

OQ wasn't given this in 5B; however, Regina was given this, with Zelena, and her parents.  Regina wasn't given a main-plot-driven arc, but in terms of an emotional arc, I think she did get her spotlight in 5B, making peace and getting closure with her sister, father and mother.

[Mathius]

In the end, Hook and CS are nowhere close to over-saturating the show as much as some fans claim, they're just better written than most other aspects/ships/characters.  It all amounts to these fans being jealous of that, and rather than try to push for the stuff they want to be written better to be written better, they act like Regina and Zelena, thinking that the source of their jealousy is the problem and that it needs to be removed. They believe that the writers are deliberately writing CS better than everything else, and that if they just got rid of it, then they could write the other stuff better.  In the end, they are far more fixated on what they hate, rather than what they love.  I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy for them.

Alternatively, if there are people who have legit problems with how CS is being written, it would be better for them to attempt to get that addressed and fixed, rather than trying to axe the couple outright.  That's my policy with, say, Regina.  I actually don't want her dead or off the show, I want the issues I have with the writing of her character fixed and will continue to critique her until that happens, knowing that there's a good likelihood it won't happen since I'm not guaranteed or entitled to anything. Bottom line: critique TV shows with maturity, people!

Edited May 12, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Yes, there are extremist factions, but those people don't listen to reason and it is pointless to argue with them or waste time articulating what is basically common sense.

[Rumsy4]

So, here is a tally of the Underworld body-count by the end of the arc. These are people that we know were affected by the actions of the Nevengers in going to the Underworld.

Moved on to a better place:

1. Hercules
2. Megara
3. Henry Sr.
4. Cora
5. Liam
6. Sailors
7. Stealthy (presumed)
8. Apprentice (also presumed)

Moved on to a worse place:

1. Blacktooth
2. Captain Silver

Lost in the River of Souls:

1. Milah
2. Gaston
3. James
4. Auntie Em
5. Peter Pan

Obliterated from Existence:

1. Hades
2. Robin

Brought back to Life:

1. Killian Jones
2. Dorothy (sort of)

Still In Underbrooke:

1. Cruella
2. Blind Witch
3. King Arthur

The tally seems to lean in favor of people who were affected positively by the UW-quest (10+ vs 9). Of those who suffered a worse fate, Robin's case is the most hopeless. The one that bothers me the most is Milah's fate, but there is some hope that Arthur will help free the Souls in the River, given their modified behavior after the death of Hades. So, I think Arthur's death and his subsequent decision to remain in the UW can be counted as a good thing for the denizens down below, and a positive outcome overall. I think this arc has been the most eventful one in a  long while!

[Camera One]

Aunt Em's fate bothers me even more than Milah. 

[Mathius]

Yeah, at least Milah went in quickly.  Auntie Em spent a while as liquid soul before she got put in there!

While I know many wished they could have resolved the fate of the lost souls more definitively, I'm still grateful for them giving us that attacking souls scene and Hook's remark about the Underworld changing afterward, at least knowing that the "souls trapped in the river for eternity" part is no longer true sets me at ease.  Plus, yeah, saving them is probably part of Arthur's new job as well, since they're part of his "kingdom".

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

I'm less concerned about those in the River of Lost Souls than I am pissed that no one knows that Rumpel is the one who pushed Milah in. It seems like the souls will get out, but Rumpel is totally skating for his actions in the Underworld. Milah is potentially suffering eternal torment and he got rewarded for kidnapping Zelena by having the contract torn up. The Rumpel/Milah situation is reminiscent of the Regina/Graham one and I'm sure it will never be addressed again.

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, KAOS Agent said:

I'm less concerned about those in the River of Lost Souls than I am pissed that no one knows that Rumpel is the one who pushed Milah in. 

I still can't believe that Emma and Hook believed him, especially Hook.

[Rumsy4]

Yes. Poor Auntie Em. But I'm not invested in her character like with Milah. So, Milah's fate bothers me the most, especially becasue as others have pointed out, Rumple got away with "murdering" her twice. 

[Camera One]

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I'm still grateful for them giving us that attacking souls scene and Hook's remark about the Underworld changing afterward, at least knowing that the "souls trapped in the river for eternity" part is no longer true sets me at ease.

 

Their skeletal appearance didn't give me much comfort, though.  They've completely lost their face and humanity.

I tend to get invested in even redshirts, so I'm strange that way.  I too was bothered like Mathius by Aunt Em being cognizant that she turned into water before she collapsed.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

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They've completely lost their face and humanity.

Eh, if they lost it they can regain it again, it probably takes time, a good long while out of the river should help.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

One would hope so, but there are no guarantees at this point.  So I do hope they will eventually return to it.

[KingOfHearts]

5B really missed out on Chekov's guns. First, there was the Dun'Broch ale. It did end up being used, but the setup wasn't required as it was supplied by Pan instead of Merida. If it was contrived, it wouldn't have a difference. Secondly, Mulan knew about retrieving souls from the Underworld from saving Phillip. So why wasn't that take advantage of in her appearance? Couldn't that have tied her in? And lastly, Robin's death should have been connected to the Fury instead of some random magic bullet from Hades. But if you're going to do the bullet, then maybe the "price of magic" should have been mentioned.

I guess it wasn't as bad as 4A with the voicemail, Henry working at Gold's shop, Mirror!Belle, etc.

Edited May 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I still can't believe that Emma and Hook believed him, especially Hook.

I can see why he believed him. He just got done being tortured and tied up by Hades because HOPE, and he was on his way to becoming a lost soul himself when Emma showed up. 

I'm disappointed because no one knows the extent of the deceit, or about the deal even though they knew Belle was pregnant, and there was a contract on the baby. It's like how about we add 2 and 2 together? I'd think that would have been enough for Hook and Emma to start wondering what happened exactly with Milah.

[Camera One]

On 5/13/2016 at 7:36 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Moved on to a better place:

1. Hercules
2. Megara
3. Henry Sr.
4. Cora
5. Liam
6. Sailors
7. Stealthy (presumed)
8. Apprentice (also presumed)

You forgot the most important.  That Horse.

[Rumsy4]

25 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You forgot the most important.  That Horse.

I did go back and forth on including it. lol I think the Horse fits with the "Still in Underbrooke" list. At least until we have defnite proof of animals moving on to Olympus. hehe

[Camera One]

The library research in "Last Rites" reminded me o the last penultimate episode, "Broken Heart".  It is crunch time and the "boring" heroes are in the library reading and doing "research", except they don't find out anything important!  It's almost like they use this technique to get Snow, Charming, Belle, etc. out of the way while the plot happens.  In "Broken Heart", they were reading the oh-so-useless Dark One chronicles until the Dreamcatchers revealed all.  In "Last Rites", they just needed to wait until the magical storybook arrived.

[Mathius]

At least with the magic storybook, there's a justification for them ever having been there.  And it ended up more useful than Regina and Robin's quest in which Robin flat-out admitted that he didn't even have a plan going in.  Too Dumb To Live behavior there, Robin.......er, too soon?

Edited May 14, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

The ridiculous thing about the "I always go in with a plan" line is when have we ever seen Robin with a plan?
- breaking into Emerald City palace to get Heart antidote - no plan 
- breaking into Walsh's furniture store or whatever that was - no plan
- breaking into Rumple castle and get flayed multiple times - no plan
- breaking into Regina's castle that Zelena broke into - no plan

[Rumsy4]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The ridiculous thing about the "I always go in with a plan" line is when have we ever seen Robin with a plan?
- breaking into Emerald City palace to get Heart antidote - no plan 
- breaking into Walsh's furniture store or whatever that was - no plan
- breaking into Rumple castle and get flayed multiple times - no plan
- breaking into Regina's castle that Zelena broke into - no plan

If anything, it was even more important to have a plan in trying to rescue his daughter from the untrustworthy god of the Underworld! lol

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The library research in "Last Rites" reminded me o the last penultimate episode, "Broken Heart".  It is crunch time and the "boring" heroes are in the library reading and doing "research", except they don't find out anything important!  It's almost like they use this technique to get Snow, Charming, Belle, etc. out of the way while the plot happens.

I think it's hilarious that they go look at books and it generally does nothing. Remember how Belle was so sure Dark!Emma wanted Pistachio for some crazy spell? Worthless. I kind of wish we'd seen what Emma did after she got the pages. Did she go tell her parents that Hook had done their job and poof out of there or did she just grab the pages and disappear leaving Team Charming to their futile research?

Edited May 14, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I am assuming Emma went off by herself without telling the others, or they would probably insist on coming with her.  Meanwhile, Snow and Charming reads that Hades doesn't like to eat fish.

[KingOfHearts]

http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_(Book)

According to the Once Upon a Time wiki, Henry's book includes some fairy tales (mostly Grimm's) we haven't seen yet. The Golden Bird, for instance, has appeared multiple times. It even includes Snow White and Rose Red, which is very curious. There are pictures as references. 

If you look in this link under "Prop Notes", you can read more of Hades' backstory from the missing pages in Last Rites. Apparently Hades stole the Olympian Crystal to kill his brother Zeus, but Zeus caught him in the act:

http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Hades

Edited May 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I personally liked 5B, but I didn't really notice much change between this season's writing and the last two; and it's not as good as S3 or 4A, imo. But looking outside myself, it seems like I've only read complaining throughout 5B? Rumbelle and Regina running around in circles are pretty huge mistakes to me. Hopefully the people at the top won't interfere with the final season at least (or final arc if S6 ends up the last, which is unlikely).

Taking this from the Writers' thread.  

I agree the problems with 5B is similar to problems with previous seasons (retcons, events becoming ultimately pointless, magical solutions à la God Crystal popping up, certain characters neglected, lack of worldbuilding, etc).  Rumbelle running around in circles was nothing new.  I think they did more than adequately explore Regina with an episode devoted to her father, an episode devoted to her mother, and an entire mini-arc just for Zelena culminating in a strengthened sisterly bond.  Most characters got a single episode, while some like Charming and Robin got none.

Overall, it's significant that 5B was better than 3B and 4B.  Just dealing with the Underworld provided a bit more cohesiveness and a continuous theme, they didn't try to do too much or bring on too many new characters, and they used the new villain (Hades) relatively sparingly compared to the Zelena-fest in 3B.  

Edited May 14, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

I didn't really find Rumbelle to be running around in circles during S4. It was the first time that Baelifre was no longer Rumpel's motivation, and the first time we'd saw his desire to seek even greater power than he already had before; not to mention Belle finally showing a backbone and kicking him out of town. I felt like the end of 4A through 5A, they were finally moving somewhere, only for everything to be set back to square one in the final episode of 5A. I've never really been fond of them to begin with, but 5B is the first time I've been annoyed to even see them onscreen. I feel like they had a chance to move them forward with Rumpel no longer having power and they wasted it.

I don't agree that 5B was better than 3B by any means, but what you gonna do.

[Camera One]

4A had Rumple deceiving Belle, and her finding out in the last moment, and taking a stand to kick him out.  4B had Rumple coming back with malicious intent and by the end of the arc, Belle essentially took him back.  I agree 5A actually did have them moving into new territory, but the "Rumple is now a hero with a shiny new heart!" was disingenuous and unconvincing, and then it ended with Rumple deceiving Belle yet again, which circled back to the same situation as 4A.  To me, that's running around in a big multi-season circle, and it wasn't enjoyable, providing zero sustained development for Belle nor Rumple.  That's really poor planning and execution for two core characters.

Which aspects of 3B did you enjoy?

Edited May 14, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

We'll just have to agree to disagree over Rumbelle. I wasn't including the final development of 5A in my argument--that's the point at which they began to go back around in circles, imo.

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Which aspects of 3B did you enjoy?

Most of them. Zelena basically wiping the floor with everyone, Rumpel being her slave (and all the creepy sexual tension involved), Zelena masquerading as a midwife, Zelena's plot to use Snow's child, basically all things Zelena/Rebecca Mader, Neal dying, Regina and Robin's initial interactions, Emma and Henry in New York in the opening with The Wizard of Oz and the fact that Hook brings them back to Storybrooke, the new Curse causing everyone to lose their memories (and I loved the fact it was created by Snow, and that she split her heart to keep Charming alive), Regina apologizing to Belle and understanding why Snow killed Cora (and not blaming her for it), the group working together in flashbacks to the Enchanted Forest, the Cora flashback, the Ariel cameos, Emma's conflict over wanting to go live in NY with Henry and everything between her and Hook, Emma starting to use her own powers, Regina realizing light magic was possible for her, most of the flashbacks to Zelena in Oz with the other witches and Dorothy, Rumpel "killing" Zelena and the time travel being caused anyway (which allowed Zelena to survive).

The only thing I didn't really like about S3 at the time was Zelena being Regina's sister (just because it followed first Cora, then Pan, who were already had family connections to the villains) even though it wasn't a deal breaker for me and they pulled the bandaid off early rather than setting it up as a big surprise like Pan. Zelena's sobstory with her foster father lacked any punch because it was too cliché and only present in one (bad) scene. I guess I thought they did a good job portraying a villain that Rumpel, Emma, and Regina were all afraid of, who actually got things done. Zelena is in my top characters from this show, personally.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I won't be around these boards (the Once forums) as much either. I'm a couple episodes behind on Once and I don't really feel like catching up at this point. The news and spoilers for the finale basically put the final nail in the coffin for me. I'll still be posting in some of the threads (like this  one, for example), though. 

Part of me really wants to be done with this show. There's just other stuff out their I'd rather be watching or doing. Whenever I watch an episode live, I can react initially. But it doesn't leave any lasting impression on me. It feels repetitive. I just can't seem to care about what happens any more. OTOH, I almost wish it was doing even worse because flipping tables is more stimulating than wading through each week. I'll probably end up watching until the series finale, just because I'm committed to the show. However, I'm not the fan I used to be. Whenever I try to analyze it, it's like running in circles.

Some people ask me why I'm still watching. They've gotten to the point where they think I'm just a diehard fan, which isn't the case. I'm not watching because I really enjoy it. It's the commitment, like I said, and these boards that keep me going. There are a few good scenes I like here or there, but they're diamonds in the rough. The best word I can describe the show with right now is "tedious".

Spoiler

Being a Regina fan, I'm not super excited to see all her redemption getting reverted for an arc. From what we know, CS doesn't have any significant development in the finale. Jekyll/Hyde aren't that interesting to me. For those reasons, I'm very cautious about 6A.

Edited May 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

With shows I get *really* invested in, it's rare that I get to that point where I don't care anymore.  More often, I reach a point where I'm really angry about how a show has turned out ("Lost" circa Season 6, for example).  I guess it could happen sometimes in a show where I was really only watching for one or two characters, and they get destroyed or killed off, or a key aspect of the show's first/early season was eliminated (eg. "Alias" once they ditched her regular life, and went full-spy).

With "Once", I definitely agree that the show doesn't leave any lasting impressions and feels repetitive.  I also feel that I no longer get the "crumbs" I used to get with one or two really rewarding scenes per episode.  I tend to watch for characters like Charming, Snow, Emma (by herself), and supporting characters like Granny or Gepetto or Blue, and these recent episodes are like opening a bag of chips and you smell it, but there's nothing inside, so you sustain yourself on the smell. 

But I think I am still invested because I still really like the characters, and I am still fascinated by the world of fairy tales, despite knowing that they're not going to do any of it justice.  I almost watch now with a curiosity for what these Writers will write next, and how this relates to their mindset.  The show has almost become an intellectual exercise to me, but one I still look forward to analyzing.    The boards definitely keep me going as well.

I tend to watch shows to the end because I'm a completist.  Unfortunately, for some shows that were bad right from the beginning, eventually it becomes quite an ordeal.  

Edited May 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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More often, I reach a point where I'm really angry about how a show has turned out ("Lost" circa Season 6, for example). 

I originally watched Lost on Netflix. It took me a very long time to get through Season 6 because of how little I cared about it and how boring it was. I finished it, but it left a bittersweet taste in my mouth when it came to the series as a whole. I have similar feeling about Once already (though the bitter side is higher here), and we're not even finished with it yet.

Quote

But I think I am still invested because I still really like the characters, and I am still fascinated by the world of fairy tales, despite knowing that they're not going to do any of it justice. 

I enjoy the multiverse and iconography concepts. I've always been into fantasy and Disney, so this show is wish fulfillment to me in many ways. But as you said, the fairy tale premise is underutilized. It's starting to feel like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for new characters or franchises. We've already got plenty to work with as it is, however the appearances are extremely inconsistent. 

[KAOS Agent]

I've kind of been hoping for a final season of Once because I do feel like they'll continue to spin their wheels until they can wrap it up. Rumpel/Regina will flip flop ad nauseum until they can finally write the end. Emma will raise and lower her walls as the plot dictates. Snowing will continue to be retconned with stupid things like eggnapping plots. Belle will have slept for half the show by the time it's over. This show needs someone to say enough is enough because it's all recycled storylines at this point and it gets worse every season. Maybe it's the dark, depressing nature of 5B that's gotten to me, but I miss the fun fairy tale show that didn't take itself so seriously like Once used to be and I just don't really see that returning.

[Mathius]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But as you said, the fairy tale premise is underutilized. It's starting to feel like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for new characters or franchises

Yeah, it seems at Season 3 they hit the ceiling when it comes to fairy tale characters.  In Season 4, every new important character were from Disney movies, either fairy-tale ones that had been incorporated previously (Sleeping Beauty, The Little Mermaid), non-fairy tale ones that hadn't (Fantasia, 101 Dalmatians), and an incredibly new one only loosely based on a fairy tale (Frozen - though to this show's credit, it did cleverly incorporate elements from the original Snow Queen story into the arc).  Now in Season 5, we have Brave, a new movie not based on any fairy tale, plus Arthurian and Greek mythology (not fairy tales, though admittedly something that has been on the show in smaller capacities for a long time now) which the show doesn't even take full advantage of at all, leaving many feeling like they were wasted, because they were.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Yes... with the exception of Frozen, many of the fairy tales used in the last few seasons have been glorified name-drops.  I mean, what was the point of bringing on King Stefan, since practically none of the actual Sleeping Beauty story was even addressed.  They go through fairy tales, myths and Disney movies like cheap toilet paper.  

Ironically, they actually did use a lot of the "Brave" movie to do two separate flashback stories... too bad the character was so abrasively written and failure to properly incorporate them into the main arc made them feel like filler and a waste of time.

[tennisgurl]

I feel like there is so much more they could do with fairy tales. There are endless lesser known characters and stories, and I feel like there was untapped potential there, but instead they wanted to use more recognizable Disney brands to drum up ratings. And even when they do use a new franchise or setting, they only half ass it (like the Greek mythology stuff). If they really wanted to leave fairy tales behind, I wish they would have fully committed to the premise of a massive, fictional multiverse. It would be interesting to see fairy tale characters interact with characters from Franensteins black and white movie universe, or aliens from a space universe, or some other genre that runs on different rules than fairy tale logic. Lands where True Loves Kiss is not the Ibuprofen of the entire universe. The season that I think most committed to its theme was the Frozen arc, where it seems like Team Disney was most involved. I actually really liked that whole arc. They actually explored the mythology of the Snow Queen, and they actually explored the world of Frozen. Whether or not you liked that world or not is up to you, but I appreciated how they actually tried to work the setting and story into the show, instead of just throwing in a few token references.   

[KingOfHearts]

The big four fairy tale franchises are Grimm's, Wonderland, Neverland, and Oz. Each of them involve many classic characters and stories to derive from. They're the most fleshed out in western culture. A&E burned through all four of them within three seasons. Grimm's was explored the most if you don't count the Wonderland spinoff. Oz was by far the most neglected and half-assed. 

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There are endless lesser known characters and stories, and I feel like there was untapped potential there, but instead they wanted to use more recognizable Disney brands to drum up ratings.

I don't mind the Disney brands. I think they added a level of sophistication, especially in S1. Mythology and stories that are more obscure in western culture would be fun to look at, but that would require a level of originality A&E don't possess.

Edited May 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

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 but instead they wanted to use more recognizable Disney brands to drum up ratings.

 

For me, that wouldn't be a huge problem if they actually used those Disney brands thoroughly and well, like they did "Frozen".  If you list the Disney movies they have used, how many of them have been satisfactorily explored?  You can tell that some Disney movies, like Cinderella, bore them to death.  I mean, even Snow White, the only interesting aspect to them was actually The Evil Queen.  They even seem to have no interest in Maleficent, who arguably was an even more awesome villain.  They could have taken some random character and given them some dumb sob story about her baby being stolen.  

Oz was by far the most neglected and half-assed.

I was just thinking of their comment teasing 5B that Oz will be explored.  Hey, we got Dorothy and the Scarecrow and Boq.  What else can we possibly want?

Edited May 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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I was just thinking of their comment teasing 5B that Oz will be explored.  Hey, we got Dorothy and the Scarecrow and Boq.  What else can we possibly want?

There's definitely a difference between showing something and exploring it. You can walk into Disneyland for five minutes and get a picture with Mickey Mouse, but that doesn't mean you get the experience. A&E would rather cram in as many icons as possible and give us a rushed tour than really adapt classics to prime time television. 

[Shanna Marie]

The show is at its best when they go with the concept of "the stories are all true,  but they're not the way you heard them" and they tell the story with some twists. Instead, lately they've just given us random people who happen to have the same names as storybook/Disney characters without using the stories. They don't even seem to be trying for twists anymore.

[Camera One]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Arthur's send-off was fine for him, but it didn't do justice for the Camelot arc. It threw his relationship with Guinevere, anger with Merlin and quest for Excalibur under the water. After everything that happened in 5A, Arthur was killed by accidentally running into Hades. Merida's intent on vengeance amounted to nothing, even though it was a cliffhanger for 5x09. While giving him a broken kingdom to fix was justice for his character, it didn't amount to much payoff for 5A.

I agree with that, and although the Arthur/Hook journey was fun, it gives the false impression that A&E wrapped up the 5A Camelot arc when it was far, far from it.  It again points to the complete lack of planning or long-range thought.  What was the point of Lancelot going off to find his mother again?  Merlin-Kinobe's message to find Nimue?  Even within 5B, the Apprentice just disappeared.  Has Emma even talked about her experience as the Dark One with anyone?  At the very least, bring back Percival and the Fury into play as many have suggested, as a step towards redemption for Regina for the former, and as a reason why Robin Hood died (again) in the latter.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Camera One