A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

I think it's the fact that the writers use "we're family" as a cheap, convenient way to substitute for actually strengthening the characters' relationships and forcing them to interact in ways that don't involve lots of attempted murders

 

I think the "we're family" schitck is solely done for two reasons.  One is "shocking twist".  You won't be able to believe who Peter Pan REALLY is!  The Wicked Witch of the West's TRUE maternity revealed!  Second is for ease of writing.  By pulling family relations out of nowhere, they can more easily use the new character to create conflict.  But once the reveal is over, the writers stop the character development, as if it's a done deal.  The prime example is Rumple/Neal.  

 

I don't think Emma, Snow and Charming suffered BECAUSE they were family, but because they got no writing AS a family.  

[Wandering1]

Just to be clear. How did Gepetto "save his family"? Who paid for GEPETTO'S choice?

 

Emma.

[Dani-Ellie]

Pinnocchio was Geppetto's son, ergo he was his family. Both Pinnocchio and Emma paid for Geppetto's choice, but Geppetto, Snow, Charming, Emma, and Pinnocchio all paid for Regina's.

[Kaw912]

"I think Charming got confirmation of this when knights tried to run the kid through in his arms. He was able to be absolutely certain the baby would have died if he hadn't put her in the wardrobe right that moment. The choice Snow and Charming made was for Emma not to die. Emma being a cursed baby was never an actual canon option Regina was willing to have happen. In Regina's perfect world, Emma would have been ripped away via death."

 

I didn't see it that way. Especially since Charming was fighting all those guys with the baby in his arms. Emma was more likely to die being sent to Maine by herself. The point of the original post was that Regina was not responsible for Emma growing up without her mother. Snow, Charming, Gepetto and the Blue Fairy made that decision.

 

You could also decide to see the sky as orange, that doesn't make it so.  As a big fan of the character of Regina, I will more than readily concede that if Regina had had her way the day the curse was enacted, Emma wouldn't have grown up at all.

 

As for the Geppetto/Pinocchio thing, Geppetto figured out that Pinocchio, if sent to a land without magic, would revert to being a wooden puppet, and therefore no longer "alive".  THAT is what Geppetto was saving him from.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Kaw912

[Wandering1]

The curse was cast, it was going to happen, so lets move past that.

 

Who stopped Snow from going with Emma? Was it Regina? No. It wasn't it was Gepetto. That is fact. That was discussed in several episodes. Gepetto is the reason Emma grew up without her mother.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Kaw912]

You're entitled to see it that way, and I and other people here are entitled to disagree with  you.  It's so not worth an argument.

[Dani-Ellie]

The casting of the curse was my whole point, though. It can't be moved past because it's the basis of everything.

 

Regina set all of the above events in motion by casting the curse in the first place. If she'd just left well enough alone, none of it would have happened. There wouldn't have been a need for an enchanted wardrobe, there wouldn't have been a need for Geppetto to send Pinnocchio away, there wouldn't have been a need for him and the Blue Fairy to lie to Snow and Charming, there wouldn't have been a need to send Emma away. All of these things trickled down from one singular event: Regina casting the curse.

 

I'm more than ready to agree to disagree, because nothing is going to convince me that Regina is not directly responsible for Emma growing up without her family.

[Wandering1]

The curse did not involve the wardrobe. Gepetto made the wardrobe and controlled who used it. He choose to keep Snow out. He made a choice to separate Snow and Emma. Not Regina.

 

There is really nothing to disagree about. This was shown in Season 1 and discussed in Season 2. I can get you the episode information if you want to see it. I don't remember the titles right now, but I can look it up.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[KingOfHearts]

Given the circumstances, yes Geppetto was responsible for Emma growing up as an orphan. But in the grand scheme of things, it was ultimately Regina who caused calamity in Emma's life. Even if Geppetto let Snow raise Emma, it would be a hard road. It would have had all other kinds of problems.

 

Both Regina and Geppetto were partially responsible for Emma's unfortunate upbringing. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The curse was cast, it was going to happen, so lets move past that.

But the curse wouldn't have happened at all if Regina had decided NOT to cast it.

[Dani-Ellie]

Geppetto created the wardrobe at the Blue Fairy's behest as a vessel to save Emma from the coming curse. I refer you to the war room scene from the pilot, where Snow, Charming, and the others are discussing what to do about Regina's curse:

 

Charming: What the hell is this?

The Blue Fairy: Our only hope of saving the child.

Grumpy: A tree? Our fate rests on a tree? Let's get back to the fighting thing.

The Blue Fairy: The tree is enchanted. If fashioned into a vessel, it can ward off any curse. Geppetto, can you build such a thing?

Geppetto: Me and my boy, we can do it.

The Blue Fairy: This will work. We all must have faith.

 

So yes, the curse did involve the wardrobe. Like I said above, this wasn't some kind of experiment or playing with magic or "hey, let's see if we can do this." The creation of the wardrobe was an exit plan, an escape strategy, and it was a direct result of Regina's curse.

[Mari]

"I think Charming got confirmation of this when knights tried to run the kid through in his arms. He was able to be absolutely certain the baby would have died if he hadn't put her in the wardrobe right that moment. The choice Snow and Charming made was for Emma not to die. Emma being a cursed baby was never an actual canon option Regina was willing to have happen. In Regina's perfect world, Emma would have been ripped away via death."

 

I didn't see it that way. Especially since Charming was fighting all those guys with the baby in his arms. Emma was more likely to die being sent to Maine by herself. The point of the original post was that Regina was not responsible for Emma growing up without her mother. Snow, Charming, Gepetto and the Blue Fairy made that decision.

We have such different opinions about some of this, that I'm curious about something--if the group had not made the wardrobe plan, how do you see the Once history playing out?  What do you think would happen?

[Wandering1]

I think Rumple would have found a way to use true love to break the curse. Probably Snow and Charming. Or if Emma was placed with another family, maybe the Charming's and Emma.  We saw this season that the curse could be broken by any true love kiss. Emma was optional. Rumple created the curse to get to Neal, but he couldn't cast it without sacrificing something he cared about. That's why he used Regina. Rumple kept his memories so once the cure was cast he could have started working to break it. He had the power.

 

Not sure if this answer should be here or the Rumple thread. Sorry if it is in the wrong place.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Mari]

Wandering1-

But what would have happened to Emma?  What do you think Regina's plans were for her? And for the Charmings and their friends/family?

[Rumsy4]

I think Rumple would have found a way to use true love to break the curse. Probably Snow and Charming. Or if Emma was placed with another family, maybe the Charming's and Emma.  We saw this season that the curse could be broken by any true love kiss. Emma was optional. Rumple created the curse to get to Neal, but he couldn't cast it without sacrificing something he cared about. That's why he used Regina. Rumple kept his memories so once the cure was cast he could have started working to break it. He had the power.

 

Considering, Rumple himself was cursed and did not remember anything until he heard Emma's name, he could not have found a way to break the Curse. Besides, why would Snow and Charming have known about his intentions to find his son, or that he would help them? He was the reason the Curse was created, and Emma was made the savor. He even told Regina that the Charming's baby would break the Curse, spurring her on to try and kill newborn Emma. Also, we can't compare Curse 1 and Curse 2. For Curse 1, Emma was specifically written-in as the savior--no one else could have broken it. Regina's True Love's kiss of Henry in 3B only broke Zelena's Memory Curse. 

[Wandering1]

Emma would have been placed with whatever family she ended up with. Just like Grace.

The Charmings and their friends and family would have be delayed until the curse was broken. Just like they were in season 1. Only now Emma is still a baby and they get to raise her. The curse didn't age her. The decision to send her away did.

 

Sorry Mari, I was trying to quote you but I am not very good at all the tools yet  :)

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Mari]

Wandering1-

So in your opinion, to be good parents and leaders of their kingdom, the Charmings should have just allowed Regina to curse everyone, and not tried to find a way to stop her?  (Not trying to be angry or snide, just trying to make sure I understand exactly what your thoughts are.)

Edited July 1, 2014 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

We need to remember that no one knew the specifics of the Dark Curse--which is why they were desperate to try and get Emma and Snow away through the Enchanted Wardrobe. Hindsight is 20/20. When people are in desperate situations--which all the Cursed people were because of Regina--they are forced to make difficult choices. If Emma had made it to Storybrooke as an infant, knowing that she was to be the savior, Regina would have kept her locked up in a sealed chamber, most likely under a Sleeping Curse, so she would never be able to break the Dark Curse. Even if, by some miracle, 28 years later, infant Emma had been kissed by Mary Margaret (David was in a coma) and had woken up, she still would have gone through three decades of imprisonment as a newborn, at the very least. I just don't see Regina letting infant Emma come to Storybrooke and just leaving her alone, when she well knew that Emma was the savior. She couldn't kill the infant (or the Curse would be broken), but she could make life hell for her. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

Emma was baked in as the savior in the first curse. ONLY she could break the curse. This was stated multiple times in S1. And if she had been cursed, she would never have aged past about half an hour. I'm pretty sure a .5 hour old can't break a curse. (Mostly because I don't believe a .5 hour old can have a True Love's Kiss. It doesn't really love its parents yet, and as we've seen, a True Love's Kiss requires intentionality and love from BOTH parties.)

Edited July 1, 2014 by stealinghome

[Wandering1]

Wandering1-

So in your opinion, to be good parents and leaders of their kingdom, the Charmings should have just allowed Regina to curse everyone, and not tried to find a way to stop her?  (Not trying to be angry or snide, just trying to make sure I understand exactly what your thoughts are.)

In my opinion the curse was going to happen with or without Regina.  We saw that in S3B that either Zelena was going to cast it or Rumple was going to make sure Regina did.  The Charming's sacrificed Emma's present to give themselves a future. But we saw, also in S3, that any 2 people that share true love can break the curse. They didn't have to give their daughter up to stop Rumple. Rumple wanted Neal so he would have facilitated the end of the curse, with or without Emma.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Mari]

In my opinion the curse was going to happen with or without Regina.  We saw that in S3B that either Zelena was going to cast it or Rumple was going to make sure Regina did.  The Charming's sacrificed Emma's present to give themselves a future. But we saw, also in S3, that any 2 people that share true love can break the curse. They didn't have to give their daughter up to stop Rumple. Rumple wanted Neal so he would have facilitated the end of the curse, with or without Emma.

So you don't think Regina holds any responsibility for the curse, or for what happened to the Enchanted Forest people and the Charmings because Rumple did the prep work?

 

Um . . . sorry.  No.  That doesn't make sense. 

 

Don't misunderstand me, Rumple is a buffet of evil.  He is responsible for a great deal of evil--he's killed people, he's manipulated people, he's tortured people.  He's ruined a lot of lives.

 

But when it comes right down to it, Regina cast the curse.  Regina was so bent on revenge for something a tweener did while trying to help her that Regina was perfectly thrilled to be ruining life after life after life, and was planning on killing a baby to make sure it could never be undone, and she killed other evil magic users to make sure she could. Was she manipulated at some points?  Yes.  Did she have a terrible mother?  Yes.  But she is not the only character with a bad family history, and she also chose to ignore anybody who offered her other chances at happiness (Tink and the Lion Tattoo, for example) and did some manipulation of her own (Sidney, for example). 

 

Rumple also being evil doesn't exonerate Regina for her actions as the Evil Queen, or for destroying many lives and much of the Enchanted Forest.  She chose it.  She embraced it.  And, from what I saw in Parilla's performances, apparently also creepily relished it.

[Wandering1]

So you don't think Regina holds any responsibility for the curse, or for what happened to the Enchanted Forest people and the Charmings because Rumple did the prep work?

 

Um . . . sorry.  No.  That doesn't make sense. 

 

Don't misunderstand me, Rumple is a buffet of evil.  He is responsible for a great deal of evil--he's killed people, he's manipulated people, he's tortured people.  He's ruined a lot of lives.

 

But when it comes right down to it, Regina cast the curse.  Regina was so bent on revenge for something a tweener did while trying to help her that Regina was perfectly thrilled to be ruining life after life after life, and was planning on killing a baby to make sure it could never be undone, and she killed other evil magic users to make sure she could. Was she manipulated at some points?  Yes.  Did she have a terrible mother?  Yes.  But she is not the only character with a bad family history, and she also chose to ignore anybody who offered her other chances at happiness (Tink and the Lion Tattoo, for example) and did some manipulation of her own (Sidney, for example). 

 

Rumple also being evil doesn't exonerate Regina for her actions as the Evil Queen, or for destroying many lives and much of the Enchanted Forest.  She chose it.  She embraced it.  And, from what I saw in Parilla's performances, apparently also creepily relished it.

Where did I say she was blameless. I didn't.  I was stating a fact. The curse was going to happen with or without Regina. Zelena and Rumple were planning it long before Regina was the Evil Queen. Long before Emma was even born. So do I think the Charming's had to sacrifice their baby for a curse Rumple planned years earlier? No. The Charming's were willing to sacrifice their daughters future to save themselves. That isn't noble. It's kinda sad. In my opinion.

 

Of course Regina is responsible, she cast the curse. Rumple manipulated her but it was her choice to go ahead with it. Just like the Genie is responsible for killing Leopold. Same thing. Regina was wrong. Regina was evil. But that doesn't change the fact that Emma wasn't required to break the curse. As season 3B showed us.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Kaw912]

In my opinion the curse was going to happen with or without Regina.  We saw that in S3B that either Zelena was going to cast it or Rumple was going to make sure Regina did.  The Charming's sacrificed Emma's present to give themselves a future. But we saw, also in S3, that any 2 people that share true love can break the curse. They didn't have to give their daughter up to stop Rumple. Rumple wanted Neal so he would have facilitated the end of the curse, with or without Emma.

And just how was Rumple going to facilitate the end of the curse with no memory of the son he was searching for and no awareness that he was cursed? The only thing that restored Rumple's memory at the beginning of Season One was hearing Emma's name. I can guarantee you that IF baby Emma had been cursed and in Storybrooke along with everyone else, she would have been there under a different name.

[Wandering1]

And just how was Rumple going to facilitate the end of the curse with no memory of the son he was searching for and no awareness that he was cursed? The only thing that restored Rumple's memory at the beginning of Season One was hearing Emma's name. I can guarantee you that IF baby Emma had been cursed and in Storybrooke along with everyone else, she would have been there under a different name.

Because he wrote the curse that way. He added all the tricks to the curse. If he wanted to retain his memories he obviously could. He was the creator.

[Rumsy4]

But that doesn't change the fact that Emma wasn't required to break the curse. As season 3B showed us.

Emma was the savior of the first curse--no one else could have broken it.

[snarkastic]

But that doesn't change the fact that Emma wasn't required to break the curse. As season 3B showed us.

You know, Wandering1 does bring up a somewhat valid point. All Emma really did with her TLK was break the memory curse (but she was also being a saviour by bringing people together, yes) but there WAS no memory curse the second time until Zelena added it last minute. (And that's all Regina's TLK did was break the memory curse added after the fact) So what would even need to be broken in curse 2.0?

Edited July 1, 2014 by snarkastic

[Mari]

You know, Wandering1 does bring up a somewhat valid point. All Emma really did with her TLK was break the memory curse (but she was also being a saviour by bringing people together, yes) but there WAS no memory curse the second time until Zelena added it last minute. (And that's all Regina's TLK did was break the memory curse added after the fact) So what would even need to be broken in curse 2.0?

With the first curse, they were not only brought to Storybrooke, but time was stopped, and they were stuck in their miserable lives.  Emma started time again, as well as restoring people to their original identities.

 

The second curse was not originally meant to be a traditional curse.  It was not meant to actually harm people; it was going to be used solely as a transport device.  There was no need for a built-in curse break, because there wasn't actually supposed to be anything to break.  Zelena throwing in the last minute memory potion  made it something that needed to be broken, but since it wasn't woven into the fiber of the original casting, probably didn't need to have a special built-in breaking device.

 

At least, that's my theory.

[Kaw912]

The only way Rumple could have kept his memories would be if he had cast the curse himself. That is why Regina was the only one who had her memories. Rumple didn't cast the curse himself because he was either unable or unwilling to sacrifice the one he loved most. He didn't simply get to choose whether or not to keep his memories. He did not get to dictate who did and did not keep their memories. Do you really think he would have willingly given up his memories if he could have kept them? Someone had to come to the land without magic without being cursed who would one day find Storybrooke and release everyone from the curse. That person was Emma. Until she arrived in Storybrooke, Rumple would not be able to to search for his son.

Rumple and Regina were both responsible for Emma's upbringing. Regina gets some bonus demerits for actually trying to kill Emma to prevent her from ever being able to undo the curse. To imply that Snow and Charming were selfish parents for sending their baby away rather the having her spend what may very well have been an eternity as a newborn being raised by complete strangers is really incomprehensible to me.

[Camera One]

So what would even need to be broken in curse 2.0?

Now that's a good point.

Basically, the Curse became a one-way shuttle bus.

[Wandering1]

I think so too. I think curse 2.0 was just to get them back to SB.

[Dani-Ellie]

To imply that Snow and Charming were selfish parents for sending their baby away rather the having her spend what may very well have been an eternity as a newborn being raised by complete strangers is really incomprehensible to me.

 

Same here. The archetype of the parents who love their child enough to let them go is biblical, for crying out loud, with the story of King Solomon. "Then the woman whose son was alive said to the king, because her heart yearned for her son, “Oh, my lord, give her the living child, and by no means put him to death.”"

 

In my estimation, Snow and Charming were faced with splitting the child. They could either let her be killed (because I'm sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that Regina's guards were tasked with killing the baby; baby Emma getting swept up in the curse was never an option) or give her a chance at survival. So they decided to let her go even if it meant possibly never seeing her again because they were being unselfish enough to put their daughter's life ahead of their own needs and desires.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[snarkastic]

With the first curse, they were not only brought to Storybrooke, but time was stopped, and they were stuck in their miserable lives.  Emma started time again, as well as restoring people to their original identities.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. My response was about the TLK portion of the curse breaking that 'anyone can do it'. Time had already started in Storybrooke and had nothing to do with TLK.

 

And the 'miserable lives' and 'restoring people to their original identities' is what I'm referring to as breaking the memory curse.

 

I'm not trying to say Emma wasn't the saviour and needed for curse 1.0, I'm just saying the second curse wasn't even a curse if there was nothing to break. Was there even any time stoppage going on? And if so, when did it restart? How is this the same curse Adam and Eddy!?!?!

[KAOS Agent]

 

Basically, the Curse became a one-way shuttle bus.

 

I sure hope that was what it was meant to be because those idiots had no plan on how to get Emma and have her remember them. If they were truly cursed like Dark Curse 1.0, they'd have been screwed. Regina clearly didn't know how to make a memory potion because she was unable to even duplicate the stuff she got from Emma in "Witch Hunt", so what exactly was the plan? Did they even know if they'd be able to leave town (monkeys notwithstanding)? Were they planning on calling up Ms. Swan and getting her to do something? Or have Snow show up at her door claiming to be her mother? That would've gone over a whole lot worse than Hot but Crazy Pirate Guy. At least Hook knew Neal's address and could work on her memories, no one else other than Rumpel knew that. Pretty much all of Dark Curse 2.0 was a ridiculous plot device that shows the writers never gave it any more thought than ooohhh let's have the Charmings cast it and get everyone back to Storybrooke. We'll just ignore all of the things that were involved with the initial Dark Curse other than transporting everyone and rebuilding the town.

[Camera One]

Were they planning on calling up Ms. Swan and getting her to do something? Or have Snow show up at her door claiming to be her mother?

Maybe an entire season of bumbling attempts to search for and get a hold of Emma would have been more entertaining to watch. Especially if everyone dispersed and Zelena was cackling all by herself in Storybrooke until she finds the taser and accidentally uses it on herself.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

The only Curse that needed to broken the second time was Zelena's Memory Curse,so no savor was needed or required. As for their plan, short of hiring Emma to do a job in Storybrooke and hoping that they could restore her memory somehow by True Love's Kiss via Henry, I don't think Snowing or Regina had a plan (despite sitting around for months in the Enchanted Forest, apparently). Storybrooke 2.0 not only cheapened the concept of the Dark Curse, but also the sacrifice and heart-break at the end of Going Home. Not to mention the awful part of Emma's "I LOVE NEW YORK" arc.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Amerilla]

It's part of the global problem they've had with Emma since the end of S1: this is ostensibly her story, but in many ways, she's less and less relevant to the action.

 

(It's the same problem they ran into in Lost - Jack was supposed to be the central character, but as the story developed, and stronger, more compelling characters and stories came to the forefront, they really had to work to shoehorn him into relevance. Emma (and Jen) are, thank heavens, far less irritating to watch than Jack (and Matthew), but the issue remains.)   

 

Emma could have sat out all of S3 and the story would have been almost no different. Rumpel, Regina and Neal brought more to #SaveHenry than Emma and her crew. 3b was a straight-up battle between Regina and Zelena; virtually everything Emma-related was designed to get her into a relationship with Hook, under the thin fiction of her learning that her family was "home..." something she'd already pretty much concluded much more naturally in S2.

 

I don't think it's wrong, in an ensemble drama, for characters to take turns getting their place in the sun. S1 was an Emma showcase. S3 was primarily a Regina showcase. S2 was a little more unfocused, and that was one of its many problems - but I'd argue that it was a split between Rumpel and Snow.

 

What I do think is deeply wrong is to have the dialog say one thing and the narration the other. To have Emma referring to herself (and occasionally whinghing about) being The Savior; to have the Charmings and various townfolk being all "Save us, Emma Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope!"; to give Hook clunky "romantic" buck up, my little angel lines about how she was the one who saved them in Neverland and from Zelena, yadda yadda, without then showing her actually doing anything to move the main conflict forward is a form of cognitive dissonance I personally don't think I can take another season of. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

I was thinking about the suggestion that Emma's icky life was her parents' fault for sending her alone into the wardrobe or Gepetto and the Blue Fairy's fault for lying about the wardrobe taking two, so Emma was sent alone, and while I think that this idea is the very worst kind of victim blaming, it did make me think about what would have happened if Snow had gone through with Emma, and I'm not sure it would have made Emma's life that much better.

 

Think about it -- a newborn infant on her own is going to be given food, clothing and shelter, no questions asked. She won't be expected to have a legal identity, and one will be established for her that she can then use through her whole life. She'll be able to adjust gradually to life in that world, as any other kid does, and build an education and work history.

 

Things won't be as easy for an adult. Snow would have been entering a strange world, either very pregnant or immediately after giving birth (depending on whether she got to go with Emma because Emma wasn't born yet or because they were the two allowed to go). She would have had no legal identity, no money, no support system whatsoever, no work history, no educational record, not many relevant job skills -- in short, nothing that would allow her to provide for herself and her daughter in this world. She might have initially resorted to her banditry skills, but in that physical condition might not have been as stealthy as before, and she'd have been totally unaware of things like security cameras and alarm systems, so there's a good chance she would have been caught and arrested. Now think about what would happen to a woman who identifies herself as Snow White (since she'd have had no way of knowing that this was a fairy tale character in our world. To her, it's just her name and no big deal) and who doesn't understand how anything in our world works. How long do you think she'd have been able to keep custody of Emma? She'd likely have either ended up in an institution or in jail, or might have ended up homeless or having to work in the underground economy. In all those cases, Child Services probably steps in and Emma ends up in foster care anyway.

 

Hook at least had the advantage of having already visited at least one other world, and it seems like some of the Lost Boys were from our world (at the very least, the Darlings). Then he'd been exposed to Emma and her "Captain Hook? Seriously?" attitude, and he'd been in Storybrooke, which is kind of a buffer zone, in our world but with the awareness of the other world, before he went to New York. He'd been in the hospital, so may have watched TV. He also didn't need to find a job, food or shelter. Snow would have been thrown into our world utterly cold, with no preparation for what she was facing.

[FabulousTater]

Emma could have sat out all of S3 and the story would have been almost no different. Rumpel, Regina and Neal brought more to #SaveHenry than Emma and her crew.

Oh, man, that reminds me, since I started pre-gaming with some beer before watching OUAT, I totally hallucinated this episode where Douchefire was trapped in a small bamboo cage in the middle of this cavern and surrounded by a chasm on all sides. No way out for poor Douchefire. And the only way he got free was like 4 other people showed up, I think it was Emma and Snowing and Hook, and they each had to give up some secret to this cave to build some sort of magical bridge to free Douchefire. Man, I tell you, crazy ass hallucination.

 

And, oh, this other time I imagined that Hook and Douchefire were trapped against these trees and were having their shadows forcibly ripped from them by evil demon shadows and they were all yelling and shit and Emma had to magically light this candle to trap the main shadow and saved them. Crazy since I'm sure Emma wasn't even in Neverland.

 

Oh, oh, and there was this other time Rumpel was stuck in this teeny-tiny magical box for like most of an episode. Emma and the others had to free him. It was hilarious.

 

My beer is awesome. It makes me imagine entire episodes, it....oh, crap. wait. my roommate is looking over my shoulder and says those things totally happened. Well, damn. I thought for sure that Rumpel, Regina, and Douchefire were the only ones in Neverland since no one else contributed anything useful.

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Serena]

Or, you know, everyone would have died in the storm before even stepping foot on Neverland since it was Emma realizing that it was caused by anger and jumping in the ocean that made it stop.

[Camera One]

It did make me think about what would have happened if Snow had gone through with Emma, and I'm not sure it would have made Emma's life that much better.

This would have been a whole different premise to the show. It could have been a middle-aged Snow raising a teenage Emma, and Snow has to tell her that she's the Saviour, but of course Emma won't believe her and she goes out and hangs out with loser teens who are partying it up and stealing beer from the closest convenience store.

I'm kind of glad we didn't get that show. It would be the type of show that the CW might air.

Though I wouldn't mind it if they did a stand-alone "What Might Have Been" episode to show this. Snow reuniting with Charming, but Snow is already middle-aged and missed 28 years with her husband... that would have been sad, even though it would have been worth it for Emma. Though it would have been interesting for Emma and Snow to work together to break the Curse.

[legaleagle53]

Rumple kept his memories so once the curse was cast he could have started working to break it. He had the power.

 

Actually, he didn't keep his memories.  He didn't regain them until Emma introduced herself to him in Storybrooke -- it was hearing her name that broke the Curse for him.

[Serena]

I think a what-if episode with Snow going with Emma would be great. Usually I see people clamoring for a what-if Emma had grown up in the EF with no curse, but this would be even more interesting. 

[Shanna Marie]

I suspect a lot of the "what if" would involve Snow in an asylum, insisting "But I really am Snow White! My daughter must break the curse!" while Emma is brought up by foster parents and feels sad for her poor, crazy mother, with whom she has awkward conversations about curses and Saviors on visiting days.

 

I have some thoughts about the curses, but I think I'll take them to the "magic and curses" thread (we do have one here, right? If not, time to make one) for discussion.

[Serena]

I suspect a lot of the "what if" would involve Snow in an asylum, insisting "But I really am Snow White! My daughter must break the curse!" while Emma is brought up by foster parents and feels sad for her poor, crazy mother, with whom she has awkward conversations about curses and Saviors on visiting days.

Ugh, no. I would be very angry with A&E if they wrote it like this. Snow would be smart enough to get, after the first time someone looked at her like she was crazy, that she should hide her identity. Also, parents are calling their children things like "Kaleesi" right now, so I don't think people would automatically assume that a woman called "Snow White" was crazy. Her parents, maybe.

[Dani-Ellie]

Or, you know, everyone would have died in the storm before even stepping foot on Neverland since it was Emma realizing that it was caused by anger and jumping in the ocean that made it stop.

 

Or how no one would have even known where on the island Pan's compound was since Emma unlocked the map.

[Shanna Marie]

Ugh, no. I would be very angry with A&E if they wrote it like this.

I'm not saying they should write it that way at all, but being realistic, it's what's likely to happen to a woman who calls herself Snow White and who truly believes she's a princess displaced by the Evil Queen, has no legal ID, no means of support and who doesn't seem to understand the world at all. Snow wouldn't know that there's anything "odd" about life in the Enchanted Forest because it's normal to her. If she tried to act the way she did at home and expected things to work the same way, there would be problems.

 

Bae, at least, was still a kid when he landed in our world (both times). The first time, he was homeless and stealing food from people's houses, but at least in that time they weren't as reliant on things like photo ID and birth certificates. The second time, he was still a teen, which offers a lot more leeway than an adult gets, he had the previous experience of a world without magic and knew enough to know what not to talk about, plus he'd spent centuries in Neverland and had that degree of seasoning, along with perhaps some exposure to Lost Boys from other places. Snow, being Stupid Good and very trusting and rather naive, would probably get herself into a lot of trouble.

[Serena]

My problem is that Snow being stupid and naive is a re-invention of the character post-S1. bandit!Snow could totally survive in our world.

[Camera One]

I am guessing Snow would have been found at the side of the road by the same people who found Emma, and then at the hospital, she would have to pretend she had amnesia or something (once she realized, hopefully quickly, that our world knows of Snow White, and considers her fictional). Though if she persists in telling people she was Snow White, she could have ended up in a mental ward as Shanna Marie indicated. The showrunners could have gone either way with that.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

My point, really, was just that there was no guarantee that Emma's life would have been perfect and peachy-keen if she hadn't just been sent through the wardrobe alone, making it all either Snow and Charming's or Geppetto's fault that her life sucked. Even if Snow hadn't been locked up as crazy, how comfortable a life would a woman with no legal identity, no job history and no educational record have been able to make for herself and her daughter? Would Snow have been able to convince a kid who grew up in our world and who was exposed to Disney princess stuff from other kids that she really was Snow White from an enchanted kingdom far, far away, or would that have created a wedge in their relationship? So, it comes down to the fact that Emma's life probably would have sucked because of Regina and the curse, regardless of the decisions anyone else involved made, since the curse was designed to ruin Snow's life, and making Emma's life terrible (or over) was part of that.

[FabulousTater]

Even if Snow hadn't been locked up as crazy, how comfortable a life would a woman with no legal identity, no job history and no educational record have been able to make for herself and her daughter?

Not to get political or anything (not my intention at all), but Snow and baby Emma would've been the equivalent of illegal immigrants and many illegal immigrants are able to scratch together a fairly good living in the US (not all, but I'm just saying it's not impossible), so I don't think it would've been all that dire for Snow and Emma. Snow would just have to be quick on the uptake (which Season 1 Snow was) and tread carefully. She couldn't go around talking about magic curses and evil witches. Which I think if Snow was circumspect and paid attention before sharing personal info, she'd figure out that she was in a land where belief in magic curses, fairies, and evil witches was perceived as crazy.

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater