A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Free]

Huh. I like "Manhattan" because it felt like the only time Emma (or any character not named Regina) was actually able to have angry feelings and express them without the show acting like it was a bad thing.  Granted, they didn't let it last, but she at least got to yell at someone who screwed her over. And Neal got to call out his father for the crap he pulled too. Compare that with 4.05 where Regina screams at Emma for the entire episode claiming that Emma ruined her life and Emma just takes it. I'll take the yelling in "Manhattan" any time. At least it was deserved. 

 

2a seemed promising as I assumed they would focus on characters actually being allowed to express their emotions: bringing in Neal, the aftermath of the curse being broken, etc.  Sadly, it ended up going the opposite way.

[Curio]

We were discussing the use of flashbacks in another thread, and I realized that I just don't care for many of them at this point. You'd be hard-pressed to find a recent episode where the flashback checked all of these boxes off:

1. Shows new or significant insight into the character
2. Doesn't halt the current storyline
3. Isn't a retcon

 

You could probably find a lot of flashbacks that hit the first mark, but most fail at the second and third now. 5A was interesting in its structure because most of the "flashbacks" were actually the main Camelot storyline, but we still had useless episodes like the Camelotian flashbacks, Merida's flashbacks, and the retconned mess that was Hook/Regina/Brennan.

 

I would honestly be perfectly okay if the show never did a single flashback ever again and decided to tell the story in a more linear, chronological order. Or if we do have to throw in a flashback here and there, just have it be a quick 1-minute non sequitur. The Season 3 finale did a good job at this, and those two hours still remain some of the best-paced two hours this show has ever done. Most of the events in those episodes happen in chronological order without random cuts to a flashback parallel story. The only flashback we got was the quick scene of Emma at the foster home and her date with Neal, but those were quick scenes that only took up a few minutes, and then we got on with the present action. 

 

There are only a few flashbacks I can think of at this point that I'd like the show to cover, and once it shows them, they can take a huge step back from their current formula. I'd like to see how Emma got her last name "Swan" and exploring that family, what Emma did during her time in jail when she was still pregnant, what Emma did immediately after jail and how she became a bail bonds person, Emma's two years in Tallahassee, how Hook went from being a ship servant to a high-ranking naval officer, Hook's adventure to trade his ship for the magical bean, Bae's time as a Lost Boy in Neverland and how he met Tink, how Bae was able to adjust to life in the real world in America and get a normal job, what the hell happened to Ana and Will, some quick scenes from the blissful 6 weeks between 4A and 4B, and what Robin did in his past to think that he was responsible for Marian's death. These are all things that have been hinted at happening on the show, but we still don't know the exact details of how they happened, so it's more out of curiosity that I want to see these things. But beyond that, I just don't see how flashbacks help further the present Storybrooke storyline.

 

I get that we'll always be subjected to random new Disney characters every half arc, and they'll inevitably take some time to be introduced to the audience, but I just pray that the writers don't repeat what they did with Merida. Merida is an expert archer, but she doesn't have any history with our two main characters who also happen to be really good at archery? Really? And did we need to spend an entire episode with Merida, Red, and Arthur? If we have to stick to the flashback formula, let's at least find the interesting characters combinations that A) make sense, and B) include the main cast members. A Merida flashback would have seemed a lot more organic to the storyline if it included Robin or Snow because we can plausibly assume fellow archers would have ran into each other at some point in the Enchanted Forest. 

 

Hypothetically speaking, Jasmine running into Bandit Snow would make for an interesting flashback because of their similarities. While Princess Jasmine is pretending to look like a commoner to avoid people recognizing her as the princess, running into Bandit Snow could open her eyes to a princess who actually has to dress like a commoner just to survive. Hypothetically speaking, Aladdin might have some flashback ties to Robin because of the Will/Wonderland story and both being thieves. Maybe Aladdin even ran into Hook's ship on the Seven Seas at some point. Those are all connections that would make sense based on what we know about the characters and their pasts. But with these writers, they'd probably take the convoluted route of having Jasmine and Aladdin make a deal with Rumple that turns them into jewels, which he then gives to the Evil Queen, and somehow they've been stuck like that for centuries.

[KingOfHearts]

The Lost showrunners realized their flashback-centric formula was getting tedious around S4. They incorporated new spins, like the Oceanic Six, time travel, and flash sideways in order to make sure new information was always being delivered. But I would say some of their flashbacks were duds and didn't need to exist. (Jack's tattoos, anyone?) That's what I thought A&E were doing with the Missing Year. I pictured it would be used for the new period to give exposition about, at least as far as the main characters went. Camelot had a similar effect, but it wasn't necessary to have Storybrooke showing concurrently, so it's hard to call those "flashbacks".

[Shanna Marie]

I don't mind the flashbacks as a concept (in fact, I'm pondering borrowing the concept for a book project I'm developing). I just think they need to be a little more focused and purposeful about using them. They should only be there when the present-day story either wouldn't make sense or would lose a lot of impact without them or when they're telling a distinct story that's critical to the present story. Most of season one is a good case study for using them -- the flashbacks had their own story arc, and they were the backstory and setup for the current plot. If the events in the flashbacks hadn't happened, the current story wouldn't be taking place, and those events were too complicated to weave that backstory into dialogue. Actually, the story was somewhat told in dialogue when Henry was trying to tell Emma what was going on, and the point of the flashbacks was to show that not only was Henry right, but there was a lot more going on beneath the surface. Plus, that was their way of showing the twists in the fairy tale -- this was the story of Snow White vs. the Evil Queen, but it's not the way you've always heard it.

 

It's a lot weaker when the flashback is a one-off character centric that's totally unrelated to the present story. The Rapunzel stuff in "The Tower" is one of the better bad examples. Cut the flashback, and the episode still makes total sense. Nothing happens in the flashback that actually progresses the backstory plot. They don't seem to be doing anything about Zelena and figuring out what's happening.

 

They also need to stop with the flashback providing the epiphany moment for the present day. The characters aren't seeing the flashbacks. This is information that they had all along, so the past event shouldn't change their present unless they're getting new information. Regina always knew that she drank a potion to make herself barren. If you remove the flashback, her sudden turnaround with Zelena makes no sense, but since Regina always knew that and there wasn't anything to trigger that one memory or give her new information about that memory, it still makes no sense in the present. The same applies to the Hook flashbacks in the 5A finale. Yeah, it was neat to see Baby Killian and learn what really happened with his father, but cut all those flashbacks and it doesn't change the episode or our understanding of it at all. It doesn't even really fit, since it was mostly seeing Emma in jeopardy that snapped him out of it. Hook's so prone to guilt and self recrimination that you have to imagine he's been kicking himself about what happened with his father for a long time, so it's not as though that memory would suddenly pop up and affect him just because Regina reminded him of it. The flashbacks were utterly irrelevant other than the fact that it was a Hook-centric episode.

 

Maybe they need to move away from the idea that this is the structure of the show and make it more of a possibility for the show. The flashbacks are in the DNA, so when they need or want to use one, they can, but they don't have to. A good comparison might be the show Person of Interest. There's a lot of backstory for all the main characters and their situations, so they make frequent use of flashbacks, but all of them are directly related to the present-day events and they're all relevant backstory to the main series arc. If there's an episode where the flashbacks aren't necessary for that story, they don't have them at all. There's never a sense that they're stretching to dredge up some past event so they'll have flashback material for a character-centric story. If it's a more procedural "number of the week" story, there may be no flashbacks. If it's an arc story, there may be multiple flashbacks. If you pieced together all the flashbacks used in the show over time, they'd tell a coherent story about the development of the AI machines and the history of the main characters that brought them to where they are now.

[Faemonic]

One of these episodes I'd like the flashback sequence to be to something that happened earlier in the episode, like an hour or two ago in-show, followed by a flashforward to a character who announces that they haven't really grown as a person in the last hour of in-show time.

 

Or just that zoom-in they sometimes do to the face of the character when they're about to have a flashback, but instead of a flashback there's a moment of awkward dead air and another character waving their hand up and down in front of the flashbacking character's face. Then the character can snap out of it all, "Oh, I was just remembering...but, it's not important." And then it turns out to be super important but the character won't say what plot point object they saw in their flashback, and none of the other characters want to be the one who didn't already know it so they don't ask for clarification.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Faemonic

[KAOS Agent]

Another problem with the flashbacks is that the show loves to hit us over the head with the "you're not that person anymore" mantra. If past actions are not relevant to their current day stories, why should I care what happened in the past? Regina murders an entire village. She was the Evil Queen. No big deal. Seeking justice means a death sentence because she's cool now and you're wrong to feel angry about your friends and family being slaughtered while she grinned in the midst of the carnage. Stop showing that crap if you refuse to make something of that event. Sometimes the show even tells us in the same episode where these flashbacks occurred that it doesn't matter.

 

Of course, to contradict the whole "you're not that person" crap, the heroes are continually castigated and blamed and told to fix their past deeds. The eggnapping was stupid, but Snowing were told that they needed to fix it. They weren't let off the hook for their actions just because they've changed - not even the Author shenanigans were taken into account. Snow's crimes are still held against her. So then we have a problem where maybe flashbacks mean something in the present, but only when it suits their needs. Maybe because Snow hasn't changed to be even more saintly, her past errors can't be forgiven since she is still that person. It sure sucks to not be a villain.

Edited February 5, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

At the end of the day, we're stuck with flashbacks since they're the writers' crutch.  They only need to write two 20 min stories instead of a full 40 min one, with the weekly goal of making the flashback and current-day converge on some "twist" that makes us forget what came before since it was pointless anyway.  Perfect way to dizzy us with the flashing lights so we don't realize there was no actual forward movement at all, until the penultimate episode.

[Shanna Marie]

I think one of the reasons the flashbacks are losing steam is that they're moving away from the classic fairy tales they can put a twist to and toward more recent Disney properties that aren't old enough to be iconic and that can't be twisted.

 

So, in season one we learn that this Snow White isn't some insipid girl keeping house for the dwarfs while waiting for her prince to come, but rather a bandit and freedom fighter. We learn that Prince Charming is a farmboy forced to impersonate his evil twin, who was adopted by a king. We saw that Little Red Riding Hood was also the Big, Bad Wolf. They took expectations and subverted them, giving us something fresh and new to build on those old icons.

 

In season two, we met a very different kind of Captain Hook, who was young, hot, dashing, and romantic, and whose feud was with Rumple, not Peter Pan. We also saw that Cora was the Miller's Daughter and became the Queen of Hearts.

 

But they can't really pull off those twists with the Frozen characters or Merida because they've only existed in single movies so far. They don't have centuries or decades of different interpretations to set expectations, and they can't subvert them because they're still the studio cash cows and they have their own plans for further stories. So the flashbacks can't be "aha, you just thought you knew the story, but here's how it really went" when those characters are involved. I thought they did some interesting things with the Camelot setting, but they had too many other things going on to really work with that, and they let it fizzle out. Meanwhile, they've mostly tapped out the backgrounds of the main regulars so there are no more twists to be had. We already know that Snow White was a bandit, Prince Charming was a farmboy, and the Evil Queen was a sad, persecuted victim. When they've had a chance to mine the backstory of other iconic characters, they've missed it, like with giving us any twist on Robin Hood (other than him being a rather pathetic jerk) or dealing with Aurora and Philip and their story with Maleficent. I guess there's still room for us to learn that cabin boy Killian was the pauper in a Prince and the Pauper kind of story, so he impersonated a runaway prince for a day and that's how he learned his manners. Mostly, though, they've veered away from that reasoning for the flashbacks and just use them to either hammer in a thematic point or to provide retcons to support the present plot.

[Camera One]

When they've had a chance to mine the backstory of other iconic characters, they've missed it, like with giving us any twist on Robin Hood (other than him being a rather pathetic jerk) or dealing with Aurora and Philip and their story with Maleficent.

 

They've dealt with recent Disney characters and the old iconic ones somewhat differently.  With Merida and Frozen, they've basically done "what came after?".  With Frozen, they also elaborated on the backstory with the Snow Queen.  Overall, I think they did a good job with that, because they clearly spent time looking into the existing mythology, and then plotting out how to expand on it in a way which made sense and felt organic, likely due to additional oversight from Disney.

 

They have made explicit choices NOT to invest the time to rework older fairy tales like Sleeping Beauty, or Rapunzel.  Even Ursula and Cruella were one-offs which did not fully explore the world of Greek myth with Triton and Neptune, or Jim and Anita.  They preferred to use their own creation, The Author.  Arthur and Camelot in 5A were about as half-baked as Zelena and Oz in 3B, though we actually got to go to Camelot.  Clearly, they didn't think out Arthur's arc since it didn't even have a conclusion and he was basically a muahahaha villain while Merlin was a pathetic sad sack.  They could have done a better job with Camelot mythology or included some Emma/parents time if they hadn't chosen to force in Merida and Zelena.  Every arc, it's the same... they throw in everything but the kitchen sink to make it seem like big things are happening when most of it is hollow filler. Filler is fine if at least characters are being developed, but they're not.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

Arthur and Camelot in 5A were about as half-baked as Zelena and Oz in 3B

 

And now because they didn't develop anything about Oz in 3B, we can go back there with yet another stupid story in 5B. I know that there are about sixteen million different portals between magical worlds including apparently a permanent door between Oz & the Enchanted Forest, but obviously those won't work and they sent Zelena back to Oz for a "fun" adventure on how she gets back to Pistachio.

 

The show's treatment of new worlds has been so disappointing to me. Neverland was just a bunch of potted plants. Did we even see anything typically Ozian beyond the Wizard's chamber in the Emerald City? Camelot could have been interesting except they didn't even bother to wrap it up. Now I just don't care to see if it's fixed beyond getting a line or two telling me that everyone was de-sanded and Arthur's in jail.

[Camera One]

Now I just don't care to see if it's fixed beyond getting a line or two telling me that everyone was de-sanded and Arthur's in jail.

 

It is sad that for many promising characters, realms, etc. on this show, the ship always eventually sails, and by the end of the arc, one is so sick of it you don't care to see more, even though it was not satisfactorily explored or concluded.

 

A great example was August returning in 4B.  I mean WTF and what was the point.  Hey, why bother giving him a scene with Gepetto, eh?  Since we could have Emma declare how he is one of her closest friends.  

Edited February 6, 2016 by Camera One

[scarynikki12]

More and more I want her name to really be Pistachio. Seeing it used in posts over and over is having a positive effect on me. Robin can call her Tasha if it bothers him.

[Guest]

It is sad that for many promising characters, realms, etc. on this show, the ship always eventually sails, and by the end of the arc, one is so sick of it you don't care to see more, even though it was not satisfactorily explored or concluded. 

 

That is so true.  Everyone was looking forward to Camelot forever.  I remember thinking at the start of 5A thinking Camelot and Dark Swan could fill a whole season so why were they combining them?  But now, it was executed so badly that I can't remember why I thought it was ever a good idea to explore Camelot or that Dark Swan might actually have character moments.  And I'd rather not see it revisited.

[KingOfHearts]

Picking back up on my rewatch, I am currently at 2x15, The Queen is Dead. IMO, it's an underrated episode.

There's several nice tidbits. Snow reminded me a lot of S1 Mary Margaret in that scene in the loft with David. She was allowed to be depressed and feel emotion. Then there's Emma and Rumple having to watch Neal and Henry, sharing their misery together. In flashbacks, Joanna is a good character to suit the plot's needs, plus that speech from Cora over Eva's dead body is so awesomely evil.

I think this was the last episode that explored Snow on a personal level without forcing her to share the spotlight. She wasn't hooked to Charming's hip the whole time. It's really sad because I still feel like so much of her mind is left untouched. We really don't get to see her thought process very often.

One thing that did bother me though (and it's not the episode itself that has the issue), but Eva is incredibly nice here. She's portrayed as uptight and snobby in 2x16 and 3x18, but here she could contest Glinda for all the surgary kindness she possesses. Even Snow asked at one point about how she got that way. The contrast in tone is so stark yet never explained.

Edited February 12, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Eva is a wolf in sheep's clothing.  She's such a meanie and ruined many lives.

[Camera One]

I think this was the last episode that explored Snow on a personal level without forcing her to share the spotlight. She wasn't hooked to Charming's hip the whole time. It's really sad because I still feel like so much of her mind is left untouched. We really don't get to see her thought process very often.

 

It's sad it was *that* long ago we last actually got to see something that was truly from Snow's perspective.  I still don't accept that her pregnancy in Season 3 as the excuse for why she lost her individuality.  They could have limited the actress' screentime while still showing us Snow on a personal level, as you put it.  And it wasn't like having less Snow did Josh Dallas any favors because Charming gets low quality centrics like Adventure with Rapunzel or Adventure with Anna.  I think it's really insulting that as of the last two seasons, Snow and Charming's lines are now interchangeable.  Cover up the names on the script, and you literally won't be able to tell who said what.  The Eggnapping was a perfect example of a plotline which contained the characters without being about them in any way, shape or form.  

Edited February 12, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

One thing that did bother me though (and it's not the episode itself that has the issue), but Eva is incredibly nice here. She's portrayed as uptight and snobby in 2x16 and 3x18, but here she could contest Glinda for all the surgary kindness she possesses. Even Snow asked at one point about how she got that way. The contrast in tone is so stark yet never explained.

Time and maturity alone could account for a lot of it. The "Miller's Daughter" flashback had to be close to 20 years before this flashback, since it's when Cora met Henry, and therefore before Regina was born, that means Eva has aged about 20 years. She must have gone a long time without getting pregnant, since Snow's so much younger than Regina, and yet it seems that Eva and Leopold were married before Cora and Henry. So, a decade of barrenness, when as a queen the #1 duty is to pop out an heir, and then a decade of motherhood, plus all that time with the responsibilities of a queen and the influence of Leopold, who may have been kind of a dunce, but he seems to have been a kind and caring man, would have probably changed her considerably, even beyond just the effects of going from late teens/early 20s to late 30s/early 40s.

 

But I don't really think Eva was all that bad even when she was younger, given what Cora was doing. I can only imagine what it would be like to have been betrothed at birth to some guy you've never met, so your life is set out for you with no choice in the matter, and then when you go to marry him, you learn that he's ditching you for someone he just met, and then you learn that the person he's ditching you for is actually a schemer planning to use him to cover up her pregnancy, and she's being blackmailed and stealing from him to pay the blackmailer -- and all this is what your life is being totally turned upside down for. Then to add insult to injury, this schemer tries to throw it back on you, claiming you're jealous and a brat when you point out what she's doing. Cora's lucky all Eva did was trip her. If it had been me, there'd have been a Dynasty catfight. I figure Eva's reaction was understandable, especially for someone as young as she was.

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, we're supposed see what Ava did as being very bad.  Even Emma said, "I thought our family were the heroes".  The writers really knocked us on the head with how they wanted us to feel.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Time and maturity alone could account for a lot of it.

Yes, but the writing was just trying to make a point that there was a huge difference. It's implied, even in dialogue, that something specific changed her.

 

But I don't really think Eva was all that bad even when she was younger, given what Cora was doing.

 

 

I don't either, but it's more about how she presents herself. She had that strong "snob" aura going on. My point is that the writing wants us to believe she was a bad person (even if that wasn't the case) then became a good person, but it doesn't give a reason for the contrast. More than likely, A&E needed Eva to be Cora's rival but also the reason why Snow is so kind. What's funny is that 3x18 throws a brick at the audience with lines like, "I thought we were the good guys" and "I wonder what changed her". Why emphasize that if you don't plan on doing anything with it? It's half-baked and teasing something that isn't there.

Edited February 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

A&E doesn't care what changed her.  To them, that's a boring story.  Eva tours the Kingdom, sees poverty and starts to gain sympathy.  Eva gets lost and is saved by the good-will of some kindly folks in the forest.  Zzzzzzzzzz.  Cora is the star.  Eva is the supporting character who ruined her life and then got old and really boring and her only point was to die.  Whereas you can never get enough of Cora's evil deliciousness.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Jane Espenson said that "Bleeding Though" was the most difficult episode for her to write because they changed it midway through. I've wondered what exactly changed. I have a hard time believing it was the present day stuff because there was very little there, so I wonder if the flashbacks were adjusted in some way and that's why it's hard to reconcile the story with past seasons. It could also explain the weird Eva is evil reactions from the Charmings if that part wasn't adjusted to reflect changes made in the backstory.

 

Just beyond the ridiculousness of the Eva/Cora rivalry, there's the whole weirdness with Leopold seemingly not caring that he's marrying the child of the woman who attempted to pass off her kid as his while stealing from him to pay off a blackmailer. I know this show is really, really bad about people having human reactions to anything, but that one was completely unbelievable. There's no way the Leopold in "Stable Boy" knew who Cora was. A&E can talk until they're blue in the face about how you can rewatch that episode and see how this story fits, but they'll never convince anyone that's true. I think this was some cobbled together story that was created to further drag the White Clan through the mud with their "evil" ways.

Edited February 13, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

Unfortunately, we're supposed see what Ava did as being very bad.  Even Emma said, "I thought our family were the heroes".  The writers really knocked us on the head with how they wanted us to feel.

 

This sort of bugs. Eva must have been 18 at the most when what happened happened. I mean 18 is still very high school mentality, and Eva is a princess whose position is about to be taken away from her. She was likely told her whole life that as a princess she would marry a prince (of her parents choice since Leopold didn't even seem like he loved or cared about Eva one way or the other). And she's standing there, and she's seeing her life slip away from her. If Leopold doesn't marry her, then other princes might think there's something wrong with her. It's not Leopold who would be perceived as the problem going back on a marriage contract, it would have been Eva.

 

I honestly had a bigger problem with Eva tripping Cora in the Miller's daughter. That was a bit of a petty move. 

 

 

 

there's the whole weirdness with Leopold seemingly not caring that he's marrying the child of the woman who attempted to pass off her kid as his while stealing from him to pay off a blackmailer.

 

Bleeding Through destroyed Leopold's character. He may have loved Snow, but I think he was just a general douche.

Edited February 13, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[coops]

The whole retcon of Leopold/Cora in 'bleeding through' could have been easily avoided if instead of Leopold they use a different prince previously unseen. The story could have been largely the same in terms if Eva exposing Cora and getting her exiled from the castle but then as a further twist the prince could tell Eva he still doesn't want her either as what she, quite gleefully, just did to Cora was hardly commendable. This could hint at the start of Eva's change in personality and Leopold meeting with Cora and Regina in 'stable boy' remains as exactly what it is.

[Camera One]

That would have made more sense.  Though Adam claimed vehemently on Twitter that if we watched "The Stable Boy" again, you can see that they knew all along that Cora and Leopold had a romantic past.

[coops]

I just don't believe that! There is nothing there to suggest anything of the sort. This is a show that loves to make every character that as much as shares a single scene with another character related or have some kind of history with each other- even if it doesn't always get paid off. Remember Hook's "hello Maleficent, earth tones suit you," when he met Zombi-Maleficent? If they felt the need to point out those 2 characters already knew each other when it has zero to do with any foreshadowing/plot in the future you can bet they would have least had Leopod murmer a "hello Cora" when he meets Regina in ep 1x18 if they had their romantic history planned from the start. They clearly didn't.

[Camera One]

I know... it's really quite ridiculous.  

[KingOfHearts]

I did rewatch that scene right after I saw Adam talked about it. I can confirm - unless Leopold is an idiot who doesn't care that Cora did what she did, there's no reason to believe the writers had the past incident in mind.

[Camera One]

Jane Espenson said that "Bleeding Though" was the most difficult episode for her to write because they changed it midway through. I've wondered what exactly changed. I have a hard time believing it was the present day stuff because there was very little there, so I wonder if the flashbacks were adjusted in some way and that's why it's hard to reconcile the story with past seasons. It could also explain the weird Eva is evil reactions from the Charmings if that part wasn't adjusted to reflect changes made in the backstory.

 

If Adam insists that Young Cora/Leopold aspect was there all along, that must have been something they really felt strongly about so would have been there in "Bleeding Through" regardless.  Maybe they were hoping to get Barbara Hershey back.  

 

It seems like the main point of the episode was to remind everyone that Snow KILLED Cora, that Snow's parents were far from pristine and were "grey", that Cora had a hard-knock life, and that Regina finally makes a huge breakthrough with her overwhelming apology ("It was complicated"... "MAYBE I shouldn't have tried to kill you all those times.") 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

If Adam insists that Young Cora/Leopold aspect was there all along, that must have been something they really felt strongly about so would have been there in "Bleeding Through" regardless.  Maybe they were hoping to get Barbara Hershey back.

 

This is interesting. Maybe the rewrites were because of that, because they thought they could have Barbara Hersey, and couldn't, so they changed the whole thing to young!Cora instead.

[Camera One]

Though, they were quite excited to cast an old alumni of "Lost" as Young Leopold, and Rose McGowan would be as much star-power as Barbara Hershey, and she also wrote the first Young Cora flashback, so who knows.

[Curio]

Remember Hook's "hello Maleficent, earth tones suit you," when he met Zombi-Maleficent? If they felt the need to point out those 2 characters already knew each other when it has zero to do with any foreshadowing/plot in the future you can bet they would have least had Leopod murmer a "hello Cora" when he meets Regina in ep 1x18 if they had their romantic history planned from the start.

 

I really try to repress most of 4B from my memory, but did they ever follow up on Hook and Mal's past history? Or was that all scrapped for Ursula and the random Lily plot?

[YaddaYadda]

 

I really try to repress most of 4B from my memory, but did they ever follow up on Hook and Mal's past history? Or was that all scrapped for Ursula and the random Lily plot?

 

Nope. They acknowledged that the last time he saw her she was a mummified beast, but that was about it.

[Camera One]

Finally finished my rewatch with my friend, by watching "Swan Song" tonight.  I must say I liked most of the episodes of 5A less the second time around.  Once the "don't know what's going to happen" factor was gone, the writing on these episodes felt so mechanical and it took me out of the story.  In this one, various characters kept saying "what kind of man..." or "the man... you used to be/want to be/am, etc." ad nauseum... it was so trite and the backstory was so lame.  Variations of that "man" phrase was repeated 14 different times in total by Hook, Regina, Rumple, Emma and Hook's dad... that's once every 2.8 minutes.  A little more subtlety, please...

Edited February 14, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Once the "don't know what's going to happen" factor was gone, the writing on these episodes felt so mechanical and it took me out of the story.

That's really 90% of the show's episodes for me. I'm currently trekking through 2B and it's painful. Most of the show (besides a good portion of S1) is un-rewatchable. Watching the episodes as they come is far superior in the intrigue department. The anticipation makes up half the reason to watch.

 

 

I must say I liked most of the episodes of 5A less the second time around.

I really have no intention of rewatching 5A. Unpopular opinion: there was nothing I liked about it.  (Sorry, Captain Swan shippers.)

Edited February 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[OnceUponAJen]

I wish 5B would be a little more hopeful, but it looks to be kind of bleak. I'm ready to see CS back together and happy for a while. The angst is wearing on me a bit for those two.

[Faemonic]

Jane Espenson said that "Bleeding Though" was the most difficult episode for her to write because they changed it midway through.

I thought it was Witch Hunt or do you have a link to a more recent tweet or something?

 

[Shanna Marie]

A discussion in the spoiler thread got me started thinking about how repetitive this show is with plot elements, especially in season 3 and following, once they'd established some patterns. Here are a few I've come up with:

 

Memory loss

Season one: the curse involved all the Storybrooke people having their memories wiped and given fake memories

Season two: there was mostly the fear of losing memories once they learned that crossing the town line caused them to revert to their cursed personality for good. One of the dwarfs was wiped, then Belle was almost wiped and then actually wiped and given a fake identity. Rumple worked to create a way to keep his memory when leaving town, and then Blue came up with a cure for the memory loss. Plus August got turned back into Pinocchio and lost all his adult memories at a critical point when they needed his information

Season three: Henry and Emma had their Storybrooke memories wiped, and Curse 2 caused everyone to lose their memories of the previous year

Season four: Ingrid wiped memories of her from Elsa and Emma. All of Arendelle lost their memories of two of the princesses. In the AU, most of the people lost their memories of their real selves.

Season five: Everyone lost six weeks worth of memories, so they didn't know what happened in Camelot

 

Emma loses or can't use her magic

She didn't discover her magic until season 2

Season three: the kiss curse makes her lose her magic, and she's in denial about having it back

Season four: she tries to give up her magic to keep everyone safe

Season five: when she becomes the Dark One, she's not supposed to use magic for fear it will take her deeper into darkness (unless, of course, Regina needs something)

 

Hook nearly dies or dies or is believed dead

Season two: He gets knocked into the pit with zombie Maleficent and is left for dead

Season three: He nearly gets his shadow ripped away in A, drowns in B

Season four: He nearly has his heart crushed by Rumple, he gets knocked overboard while unconscious and Ursula thinks he's dead, and then he's actually killed in the AU

Season five: He's killed by an Excalibur wound (and then is run through with Excalibur)

 

You could probably broaden that and get even more stuff with "Hook in jeopardy." He seems to be the show's resident damsel in distress.

 

There's fear that Emma might go dark

Season one: maybe not so much, but she did resort to some underhanded things in trying to take on Regina, and wasn't Henry a bit worried about that?

Season two: As I recall, Snow questioned some of her tactics, and later Neal freaked out about her use of magic

Season three: Snow really didn't like the heart-ripping for info idea in Neverland

Season four: Emma worries about her magic going out of control and hurting someone, then there's the whole "turn Emma dark" scheme plus the fears that led to the eggbaby incident

Season five: Emma becomes the Dark One and they worry about her giving in to the Darkness

 

Someone controls Hook and/or forces him to do things he doesn't want to do

Season two: He's Tamara's prisoner and forced to carry out a plot for her and Greg (though at least that time he seemed to be okay with what they wanted him to do, up to the point where he was no longer okay and walked away). In flashbacks, both Regina and Cora threaten him into doing things for them.

Season three: the kiss curse, with threats against Henry if he didn't comply

Season four: Rumple used his heart to force him to do things

Season five: He was made into the Dark One and controlled with Excalibur, and it seemed like Nimue was dictating a lot of his Dark One actions

 

One of Regina's former victims is portrayed as a villain

Season two: Greg/Owen, plus Snow getting more blame for killing Cora than Regina ever got for all she did to Snow

Season four: Sidney is shown to be a betrayer when he works with Ingrid, even though Regina had imprisoned him. Snow is literally turned into a villain in the AU

Season five: Percival

 

Regina miraculously gains some skill or knowledge to save the day

Season two: She has the power to stop the failsafe

Season three: The tree of No Regrets, the miracle of the Light Magic

Season four: her blood counts as Light Savior ink for the Author's pen

Season five: she suddenly has deep psychological insight into Hook based on something that happened decades ago and hasn't come up since then

[coops]

I always notice various scenes seem to be exact replays of previous scenes. For example in S2 Snow and Charming rush to stop Regina from giving Cora back her heart and thus allowing Snow to murder her... but they're a moment too late! Then in S4 Snow and Charming rush to stop Emma from killing a 'defenceless' Cruella... but they're a moment too late! Snow and Charming are useless at time keeping, a common theme, clearly.

[Camera One]

A discussion in the spoiler thread got me started thinking about how repetitive this show is with plot elements, especially in season 3 and following, once they'd established some patterns.

 

Don't forget episodes ending with one character or another fondling some magical object.  This figured very prominently in 5A.

[KingOfHearts]

This too. 

 

Rumple is temporarily put into a feeble, magic-less position.

S1: Rumple is arrested for battery charges.

S2: Rumple freaks out at the airport.

S3: Rumple is cuffed by Pan, later enslaved by Zelena.

S4: Rumple is tossed over the townline and forced to live with Ursula.

S5: No longer the Dark One, Rumple worries he can't be the hero Belle wants.

[Shanna Marie]

Rumple is temporarily put into a feeble, magic-less position.

Another one from season one: he's put in the anti-magic jail cell.

 

We also have Rumple and Belle are torn apart/break up and get back together

Season one: She nearly breaks his "curse" and he kicks her out/she leaves. When she gets out of the asylum, she finds him again.

Season two: She leaves him when he's still doing magic (but they get back together). Then her memory gets wiped and she doesn't want anything to do with him. Then she gets her memory back and gets back together with him.

Season three: He dies to kill Pan, then is brought back and enslaved by Zelena. After Zelena's defeated, Rumple and Belle get married.

Season four: Belle learns about all his scheming and kicks him out of town, then takes up with Will. When Rumple comes back and turns out to be dying, she stays by his side and admits that she never stopped loving him and never loved Will.

Season five: Belle isn't all that keen on non-magic Rumple and decides she wants to go see the world. But she comes back to be with him.

 

And there's A magical object that pretty much appears from out of the blue either turns out to be a threat or helps save the day

I'm not sure this applies to season one because they did a pretty good job of setting everything up.

Season two: the failsafe

Season three: the black wand; Zelena's pendant

Season four: the gauntlet; Zelena's shapeshifting necklace that works even in the World Without Magic

Season five: the magic potion that can siphon dark power away from Excalibur and reconstitute the Dark One dagger (which seems like an oddly specific potion to have lying around)

[Camera One]

Another deja-vu in "Swan Song" was when Snow and Charming faced "certain death" and they hand the baby over to Emma.  That already happened before the "Shattered Sight" Curse in 4A and now again at the end of 5A.  And of course in those two situations, Emma faced being the only one left standing, which actually first happened at the end of 3A.  It's the Everyone Except Emma (and sometimes Henry) Might be Obliterated, coming to an A-arc-finale near you (B arc if you're #Don'tNeedToSaveHenry).

Edited February 15, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

It's the Everyone Except Emma (and sometimes Henry) Might be Obliterated, coming to an A-arc-finale near you (B arc if you're #Don'tNeedToSaveHenry).

Ooh, yeah, that's another one that's happened every season after the first one -- everyone's going to die, but Emma's immune and will be left alone or possibly with Henry.

 

I may have to come up with the "do it yourself Once Upon a Time season arc planner" (a la the "Do it yourself" episodes that used to be in Mad Magazine). Pick one from each column of tropes to complete this season. You just have to figure out how Emma will be de-magicked and possibly in danger of going dark, how Hook will die or nearly die (after being in a situation where he's controlled by someone else), how Rumple will be rendered temporarily powerless, how Rumple and Belle will break up and make up, how Regina will save the day out of the blue, how everyone will lose and regain their memories, what magical object will conveniently appear to make a big difference, and how there will be a danger of everyone but Emma and maybe Henry being killed. All you need is to figure out what Disney property will provide your fairy tale framework with guest villain and guest roles and how these people will be connected to our main cast.

[KAOS Agent]

At least with 5B Hook's already dead, so the story is how to unkill him instead of how he's going to die this time. It's totally a new story!

 

Don't forget the Need a Baby plots

Season 1: Baby Emma is sent away so she can end the curse, Rumpel randomly needed Ashley's baby for something

Season 2: I think we may have actually avoided a baby plot here. 

Season 3: Snow wants a baby, Baby Henry is needed to fix Regina's unhappiness, Baby Snowflake is needed to cast the time travel spell

Season 4: Egg!Baby Lily is needed as a receptacle for Fetus!Emma's Darkness, Baby Pistachio is the only reason to keep Zelena around

Season 5: Baby Pistachio's cry is assumed to be needed by Dark Swan

Edited February 15, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Mary Margaret disapproves of Emma.

S1: Emma abducts Henry, Mary Margaret gets angry.

S2: Emma tells Mulan to cut the beanstalk if she doesn't return. Mary Margaret gets upset.

S3: Mary Margaret doesn't like Emma condoning Regina's methods. She also doesn't like her plans to move to New York. Plus, she admits she wasn't the younger child they wanted.

S4: Mary Margaret freaks out when Emma boils a bottle, then gets upset when she accidentally blows a hole in a wall. Later thinks her daughter is capable of going dark and gets disappointed she won't forgive her parents for eggnapping.

S5: Mary Margaret voices her opinions that murdering Zelena is wrong. Believes "there may not be any Emma any more".

 

In a mid-arc centric, a "cliffhanger" pretends to be more interesting than it actually is.

S1: Jiminy Cricket centric. Regina drops a shard of the glass coffin down into the mine shaft.

S2: August/Tamara centric. Greg and Tamara make out in a guest room.

S3: Rapunzel centric. Nevengers learn Rumple is alive, though the audience already knew it.

S4: Ursula centric. August reveals the Author is trapped inside the book.

S5: Merida centric. Merida vows revenge on Arthur.

 

CGI Monster invades.

S2: The Ogres.

S3: The Shadow, The Flying Monkeys.

S4: Marshmallow, Chernabog, Lily's dragon form.

S5: The Fury.

 

Emma and Regina save the day together with jazz hands.

S2: Combine magic to stop the failsafe.

S3: Block out the moon to banish the shadows.

S4: Destroy the Ice Viking, stun the Chernabog.

Edited February 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Putting together these trope patterns, I've created a Generic OUAT Season Plan. It doesn't perfectly match any one season because some of the tropes and events get moved around, but I think it comes close enough to fitting a general roadmap.

 

A arc -- fall

Some/many of the main characters travel to another storybook magical setting. They must find/save someone/thing and/or find a way back to Storybrooke. They meet someone who might be able to help but whom they might not be able to trust. Emma doubts her leadership/magical ability, and Snow is concerned that Emma's pragmatic solutions might be a sign of darkness. Hook is staunchly supportive of Emma and backs her 100 percent, but David doubts Hook's motives/allegiance. Rumple has a side project with his own agenda. Hook is in mortal peril/nearly dies/is believed dead/dies. After they return to Storybrooke, they learn that it's not over because a threat has followed them back. This threat might kill everyone in town other than Emma and maybe Henry. A magical item found in Gold's shop/Regina's vault/the fairies' convent changes the situation. Rumple and Belle break up or are torn apart.

 

B arc -- spring

A person audiences recognize from a movie or book is in Storybrooke, but the main characters don't recognize the threat because of a memory spell. In flashbacks, we see that this person has a close connection to/a history with one or more of the main characters. Emma is having trouble with/can't use her magic, and her parents worry that she could be heading into darkness. Hook isn't able to be as supportive as usual because someone is coercing him/magically controlling him into doing other stuff, and Emma is too focused on the main problem to notice that something's wrong. Rumple works on a side project with his own agenda. There's one thing missing from Regina's life, and she can't be happy without it. The others try to help her get this thing, but she ends up just getting it in some unrelated way. Hook is in mortal peril/nearly dies/is believed to be dead/dies. Emma is the only one who can defeat the villain, but she ends up frozen and helpless. Regina/someone else is then suddenly able to step up and defeat the villain, using some skill or information we've never heard of before. In the two-hour season finale, some of the characters are transported to an alternate version of a storybook world, created as a consequence of what the villain was trying to do, and they have to set things right and get home. Rumple and Belle reconcile when she confesses that she still loves him, in spite of what he's done. At the last second, some consequence of what happened in the other world creates a crisis that leads into the next season.

 

What's impressive about 5A is that it managed to get an entire season's worth of tropes into one arc because it follows both the A and B patterns, with double the Hook deaths. However, I'm surprised that there was no close tie or strong history (played out in flashbacks) to any of the main characters with either the Camelot stuff or Merida. Merida isn't the descendant of the king who exiled Malcolm, which caused all his problems that led him to become Peter Pan because he couldn't cope with the trauma. Cora hadn't tried to marry Regina off to Arthur, only to have Arthur jilt her when he met Guinevere.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Oh man, really? Did they miss 4B & 5A? Because seriously this show has been pretty dark for a while now. When was the last light, pure fun episode? No one's ever really even been happy since 3B. 

 

The subject matter has definitely been dark, but I think it seems darker because its so depressing. Emma prevents herself from going dark... turns into the Dark One anyway. Emma is successful in keeping Merlin's nutty ex-girlfriend at bay... but becomes Dark Swan and loses Hook anyway.

Hook makes a heroic sacrifice... gets beat up in the Underworld.

The characters always seem upset or panicked with zero downtime. No one really gets "rewarded" but Regina.

 

I realize this is a drama where conflict needs to happen. But it needs to be broken up with happy moments and good payoff in order to not tediously overdo the bleakness. This show was supposed to be based on "hope" for goodness sake.

Edited February 24, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I think you can generate conflict without making everyone miserable all of the time. For example, Hook/Emma running around the Enchanted Forest trying to fix their mistakes still allowed for them to have fun. Snow White being burned at the stake was pretty damn dark, but those two episodes were still largely fluffy fairy tale fun.

[ABitOFluff]

Funny, I wonder if they were trying to go for something light with the ball in Camelot and the Regina/Charming dance lessons. Perhaps it was an attempt to parallel the Princess Leia/Prince Charles dance.

 

However, instead of ending the ball fighting of the Black Knights in the EF, we get a dead SIr Percival and a mortally wounded Robin in Camelot. It kind of ruined any lightheartedness of the scene. 

 

I guess you can count the Spell of Shattered Sight as lighthearted, but either way, it's been a long time, and it sounds like it's going to be a long time.

[Curio]

Funny, I wonder if they were trying to go for something light with the ball in Camelot and the Regina/Charming dance lessons.

 

Oh, they were. But it fell flat because the entire time I couldn't stop screaming at my screen, "This makes no sense! There's no freaking way Regina hasn't danced a single time in her entire life! And now Charming is going to teach her? The guy who had a nightmare about not being able to teach Emma how to dance at her first ball is going to ignore his own daughter in favor of Regina? Am I taking crazy pills?!"

 

I guess you can count the Spell of Shattered Sight as lighthearted

I feel like this show doesn't know when it should be lighthearted and when it should be dark. The Shattered Sight spell should have been dark. Making it lighthearted gave it no stakes. A lot of Regina's Robin/Marion drama should have been more lighthearted since it ended up being Zelena in disguise the entire time. Regina hanging with the Queens of Darkness and playing slumber party games should have been the ultimate lighthearted, funny episode. Instead, they made it dark by having everyone freak out over nothing.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Curio