A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Geeni]

 

Because Ginny, much like Snow, is all about Neal 

 

So? Not everyone has to like precious Hook and hate Evil Neal. I think that Emma should be with neither asshole, but as a character, Neal was ten times more watchable and actually had a story and purpose on the show beyond useless love interest.

 

And on the subject of Graham, I do believe he was supposed to be present at Marian's murder as one of the knights. I wish he were, for Emma's reaction to seeing him :(

Edited August 4, 2014 by Geeni

[KAOS Agent]

The way the show has laid out the Snowing romance, it was all very sweet and innocent. Both Snow & David were presented as believing in True Love even if occasional cynicism crept in. Even when they kiss, it's pretty wholesome which fits with the traditional tale of Snow White and Prince Charming. There's passion, but it's not overtly sexual. I think Snow views the Emma/Neal relationship as a beautiful first love and the mistakes of youth and living in this hard world where a belief in true love is considered naive and pointless are what doomed them. Emma admits to loving Neal and Snow romanticizes it all because she doesn't have any experience with the type of pain and betrayal that occurred following their break up. Given that Snow & Charming were separated and fought to return to each other even in the face of heartlessness and rejection, I'm sure Snow believes that the love that created a child is worth fighting for. Snow applies her own experience to this situation, but it's not even remotely similar and God knows, Emma isn't going to sit her down and recount the pain and trauma of being chained to a bed giving birth and being unable to so much as look at her baby and how that is all tied up in her feelings about Neal. It's all about Snow misunderstanding just how devastating that relationship was and how ridiculously painful revisiting it would be for Emma. I wonder if Snow would question her view of that relationship if she'd heard Emma's secret? 

[YaddaYadda]

If David had done what Neal did, I'm thinking Snow would have used him as target practice.  Again though, this is all on the writers since we don't know who knows what and to what extent they know things about Emma and whatever happened to her.  I'm sure she would have made a bonfire with August when he turned to wood. 

[FabulousTater]

I'm sure Snow believes that the love that created a child is worth fighting for.

You're probably right...Sheesh, I guess it's best that no one tell Snow that even violent sexual assault can result in pregnancy, let alone loveless one-night stands and "Oops, the condom broke" moments. Her head would explode. 

 

ETA:

If David had done what Neal did, I'm thinking Snow would have used him as target practice.

You know if we were talking about the Snow from season 1, I would agree. But now? I'm not sure. Part of me thinks she would've been [written as] just as much a doormat about it as she is to Regina now. The writers have somehow managed to take the three-dimensional kickass character from season 1 and transform her back into the silly, naive two-dimensional cartoon character from the original Disney film. I would not be surprised if the writers transformed Goodwin, mid-scene, into an actual digitized cartoon character come season 4.

Edited August 4, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

I was reading the summary of the original Sleeping Beauty tale. The Prince finds sleeping beauty in an abandoned castle, but with thorns and bristles placed there to guard it from the outside world by a fairy. I realized Once referenced this in Broken, with all kinds of thorny plants blocking the way to Aurora! In the original tale, it took one hundred years for the curse to break, and the castle was abandoned for some time. Even though it hadn't been 100 years, the palace in Once might be mirroring this with its ruined look.

 

Maleficent cursed Aurora just because she wasn't invited to the party. Who do we know on the show who would do something like that...

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

The writers have somehow managed to take the three-dimensional kickass character from season 1 and transform her back into the silly, naive two-dimensional cartoon character from the original Disney film.

Not gonna lie, I think I prefer the animated version at this point. There's not one Disney princess or prince they've done better than the films. Some of them they've even ruined and made them worse than the cartoons.

Cinderella-worse

Mulan-way worse

Ariel-ok this one is a draw with maybe the edge going to Joanna Garcia's charisma alone

Belle-way way worse

Rapunzel-way worse

Aurora-draw

I won't even bother listing the princes. All the cartoon guys were better for sure. I sure hope some Disney executive or even just an intern is breathing down A&E's neck checking everything Elsa and Anna related.

[FabulousTater]

Not gonna lie, I think I prefer the animated version at this point. There's not one Disney princess or prince they've done better than the films. Some of them they've even ruined and made them worse than the cartoons.

Cinderella-worse

Mulan-way worse

Ariel-ok this one is a draw with maybe the edge going to Joanna Garcia's charisma alone

Belle-way way worse

Rapunzel-way worse

Aurora-draw

I won't even bother listing the princes. All the cartoon guys were better for sure. I sure hope some Disney executive or even just an intern is breathing down A&E's neck checking everything Elsa and Anna related.

LOL, ITA. Though at this point with this show, when sitting down to watch, I think it's best to pretend you are watching an actual cartoon (intended for 10 years olds). Which I feel may be insulting to some really good animated films (e.g., 75% of Pixar's offerings and a good portion of Hayao Miyazaki's work). But sadly, despite having a good solid cast of living, breathing, flesh and blood actors, the writing for this show has fallen so far that it WISHES it could be that good. Right now they're hitting "Thundercats" in terms of quality storytelling and it comes across just as ridiculous. (though shit, at least on Thundercats everyone knew Mumm-Ra was evil and no one pretended otherwise. So point in favor of Thundercats for knowing evil is as evil does. ) 

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

Henry's memory loss of Regina should've been permanent. Because that is paying a price.  Instead, he was gone for only a year, and as it turns out later, a year that she didn't even remember.

 

I agree, but that wasn't the only thing got cheapened in 3B as far as the curse reversal is concerned. There are huge disconnects between 3A and 3B that totally remove the weight of what happened in 3A.

 

- After 2 episodes, everyone is settled back in the Enchanted Forest, then everything continued as normal as if they were ordinary fairybacks.

- Emma and Henry return to Storybrooke from New York in only 1 episode.

- Hook's way to Emma is only explained passingly in the finale.

- Rumple returns from the dead in only 2 episodes.

- Storybrooke is back to normal in 1 episode.

- Emma believes again in only 1 episode.

- Regina meets Henry again in only 2 episodes.

- Pan is only mentioned twice, and no one suspects him, even after seeing green smoke.

- Tinkerbell only returns once in It's Not Easy Being Green.

 

I absolutely loved the ending of Going Home, so it makes me mad they didn't make good on it. If they can concoct such strong material, then why was 3B so weak? It just lacked the "pizzazz" and scale of epicness the winter finale setup.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

I think they needed to return Henry's memory because of Emma.  They couldn't have played out Emma's conflict over leaving and end with Emma deciding to stay if Henry only had New York memories.  And I'll take the Hook/Emma and Charming/Emma talks about her wanting to leave and the time travel finale over Regina paying by Henry never remembering any day.  The upside to Henry not remembering is more Woegina which I do not need.

 

I do agree that between Going Home and the finale they could have still done the show in a way that extracted a price for the curse even if Henry got the memories at the end and @KingOfHearts list is a pretty thorough accounting of what went wrong.

 

3B was weak in large part because of false advertising.  They set up a mid season finale that implied that we'd get season 1 with a twist.  Emma is a non-believer again.  Everyone else is straight up fairy tale characters again.  The question is how will they break the curse.  It was dangling the promise that the best parts of season 1 were being reincorporated into the show.  But what they delivered was Oz.

 

That is why I have more hope for season 4.  It promised Frozen.  I'm expecting Frozen.  I'm not overly excited about Frozen so I have lowered expectations.

[FabulousTater]

I agree, but that wasn't the only thing got cheapened in 3B as far as the curse reversal is concerned. There are huge disconnects between 3A and 3B that totally remove the weight of what happened in 3A.

 

IMO, that's just part and parcel of the writers creating these wholly independent 11 episode arcs because they are convinced that the audience's tiny attention span and the show's on-off schedule in the spring is what hurt the season 2 ratings. Which, HaHa, nope. What caused the ratings nosedive in S2B was the craptastic writing. Look at season 1. S1 was an entire arc that spanned the whole 22 episode season and there was just as much on-off scheduling in the spring. Granted, some of the storyline began to drag a bit in the middle, but for the most part season 1 sustained a story for an entire season and the audience stuck with it. The ratings are evidence of that. 

 

I pretty much hate how the show has been cut up into these self-contained half seasons. Not because I hate half seasons ('cause goodness knows I watch enough BBC programs where you've got to wait a year until you get only another set of 9 episodes), but because these writers structure the stories in such a way that one half of the season story has little to no impact on the following half.

 

You could actually skip one of the half seasons and it would've had no impact on the story in the other half. And furthermore, since the writers have a bizarre obsession with introducing these villains and characters that we're only going to see for that half season, there's absolutely no incentive to become invested in the story. None. Zilch. Zero. Who cares about Wendy, the Darlings, Pan, Zelena, Glinda, Dorothy, etc.? We're not gonna see these characters ever again, so let me just tell you how many fucks I give about them -- NONE. 

 

I fast-forwarded my way through 90% of Zelena's backstory and the Oz flashbacks and you know what I feel like I missed? Nothing. Absolutely freakin' nothing. We're never going to see any of those characters again and even if we do, that doesn't seem to matter because even the main characters of this show, that we've been following for 3 years, they react to situations based on what the plot dictates and not on realistic, organic behavior based on the characters internal motivations, wants, and needs, and damn human emotions. Once again, let's point out Regina burned Snow at the stake. Emma witnessed it and her reaction upon returning was "Gee, Regina. I don't want to hurt your feelings or anything but there's a woman here who thinks you're "evil". Could you be nice to her and prove otherwise?" I mean, WTF?

 

Oz was so pointless that it didn't even matter in terms of being able to watch the season finale and understand what was happening. That's how disconnected the writing for this show is. As a matter of fact, anyone new to the show I recommend you skip episodes 1-20 of season 3. Just watch the last two episodes. Anything that you need to know is in there. Nealfire is dead. Yes, Snowing did in fact name the baby after the guy who knocked up their underage daughter and sent her to prison. You didn't hear that wrong or have a seizure and imagine it. Hook and Emma are a "thing", and Regina is pissed at Emma because...reasons (it doesn't really matter why. It's never been rational, so ya.) There. Now you know everything, newbies. You're welcome. I just saved you 20 hours of frustration. ;)

 

ETA:

They couldn't have played out Emma's conflict over leaving and end with Emma deciding to stay if Henry only had New York memories.

I think it could've been done. And in fact, Emma's decision to stay would've been more meaningful had she had the choice between taking a Henry that doesn't remember back to NYC or staying in Storybrooke and forging a new life with her Enchanted people. Because LBR, Emma's options as they were layed out was to go back to New York by herself (because Henry would've never willingly left. He'd happily wave good-bye to Emma to stay in Magicville) or stay in Storybrooke with everyone. Not much choice really. From a certain POV, it wasn't so much Emma making a choice rather her having to realize she didn't have one at all.

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

I think 3B shit the bed for a number of reasons, but the overall worst writing offender was pacing. 3x12-3x14 worked largely because they brought the procedural, mystery element back to the show--the good guys didn't just have to Be Good, they also had to figure things out. It gave them smaller, attainable goals, and it made it feel like they made progress each episode. But 3x15 rushed the Zelena reveal and then everyone sat around until 3x20, basically.

[KingOfHearts]

That is why Frozen is bad news. It's focused on fantasy and fluff, which the writers are really bad at in the execution department. If all the new characters are going to go into Offscreenville and live happily ever after, which we all know they well, who gives a crap? Only the Frozen fans, I assure you - and they'll probably be disappointed. I was a Wonderland and an Oz fan, and I know I was.

 

Zelena didn't even need to exist. The family relations were absolutely pointless. Cora and Regina didn't know her, and they were supposed to be her blood relatives. But why? It didn't up the stakes at all for her to be Regina's sister. Regina would have rivaled with her no matter who she was. Who cares that Rumple tutored her for a while? That doesn't affect the overall plot at all. Apparently she was worthless enough for him to never mention her again.

 

Now the show comes off as, "Well we gave everyone happily ever afters. Let's go on random adventures and throw our characters in random settings for fun!" 

 

 

but the overall worst writing offender was pacing.

 

Did anyone else find 3x16-3x18 utterly boring? Then you have 3x19, which basically went from zero to sixty in like two scenes.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Did anyone else find 3x16-3x18 utterly boring?

Oh yeah. They were snoozes. The only worthwhile thing about those episodes was Zelena kicking Regina's ass all over Storybrooke; not gonna lie, I may have watched Regina going through the clocktower several times on youtube.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I may have watched Regina going through the clocktower several times on youtube.

 

You've got to admit that was a pretty neat shot. I've watched the glass shatter in slo-mo, and it's like an 80s music video. That's probably not what you're talking about, though. ;)

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Did anyone else find 3x16-3x18 utterly boring? Then you have 3x19, which basically went from zero to sixty in like two scenes.

LOL, I was going to agree, but then... I can't really recall too many details of what even happened in those episodes. So I guess that means I agree?? ;-)

 

Truth be told, I think my brain is actively blocking out most of 3B as an act of self-defense. If only I could willingly forget the vomit inducing baby naming ceremony at the end of the season finale, I really think my life would be 1000% better if only I could block that out. Permanently. I want some Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind action here.

 

I really am trying to take to heart Cindy's advice from TWoP -- the dog's name was Indiana. Maybe in s4 they'll be calling Poor Unfortunate Namesake "Pongo" instead. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

Oh yeah. They were snoozes.

 

Unfortunately, after rewatching both 3A and 3B, I found a lot of episodes in both half snoozes, even episodes I thought I liked the first time around.  There are certain plot circles that you realize are pointless, and when you know what will happen, it doesn't work.  This is not the case for certain kitchen sink conversations, since you're still touched the second time around.  But that is the case (reduced rewatch value) for a lot of action-based scenes (like hooded figure climbing The Tower) or suspense-based scenes (like Zelena giving Snow orange juice, which becomes exactly as exciting as it sounds).  It's a real shame because with fairy tales, it is supposed to be rewatchable... it's supposed to be an adventure.  But when you have the good guys basically sitting ducks and brainless, it's not fun to rewatch.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena was more entertaining at the start because we didn't know what she was up to. It was after we found out she was doing a time travel spell that the groaning started. The sense of the unknown makes things really exciting, because at the time I suspected it to be something bigger. Zelena seemed really clever at first because her plan was complicated, but most of that complexity was so unnecessary in reality. Since we know what happens, and 3B really isn't interesting as a whole, it's not fun to rewatch.

 

After Witch Hunt, I kept hoping, "Next week will be better!" then it wasn't until maybe 3x19/3x20.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

Did anyone else find 3x16-3x18 utterly boring? Then you have 3x19, which basically went from zero to sixty in like two scenes.

 

I started drunk watching this show at 3x17. At least now I can pretend some of it never happened and blame it all on the alcoholic haze. Truthfully, alcohol allowed me to keep watching the show. There is no way I could've gotten through "Kansas" without the immense amount of tequila I downed. And I can tell you that if you play a drinking game that involves doing shots whenever Regina is sad, crying, blame casting or self-pitying, you will be hella drunk by the end of the show.

[FabulousTater]

I started drunk watching this show at 3x17. At least now I can pretend some of it never happened and blame it all on the alcoholic haze. Truthfully, alcohol allowed me to keep watching the show.

I fully admit that this is most likely why there are details of season 3 (mostly 3B) that are fuzzy in my mind. I still think my brain is blocking it for self-defense reasons, but the alcohol haze helps. Indeed, my friend alcohol was my faithful companion during these trying times. 

 

And I can tell you that if you play a drinking game that involves doing shots whenever Regina is sad, crying, blame casting or self-pitying, you will be hella drunk by the end of the show.

Include every time Snow or Charming say something about hope, finding each other or say whatever soppy sentiment to each other, or whenever Snow climbs up Regina's butt and you will be cursing your very existence the next day and your liver will be trying to crawl out of you.

 

(Conversely, if you want to stay stone cold sober - take a shot whenever Snow or Charming say "I love you" to Emma.)

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

 

Conversely, if you want to stay stone cold sober - take a shot whenever Snow or Charming say "I love you" to Emma.

 

Just out of curiosity has this ever been said to her by her parents? And if so, how many times?

 

Henry and Emma say I love you to each other frequently, but I'm not sure I've ever heard her parents tell her they love her. It's going to bother me if it turns out Neal and fucking Walsh have said it to her more than her parents.

[stealinghome]

I'm fairly sure neither Snow nor Charming has said it to Emma (yet), but that actually doesn't bother me, because "New York is so great" Emma has totally, absolutely not been ready to hear it before now. Before 3x22, Emma couldn't even refer to her parents as her parents without the threat of imminent death hanging over them all...no way could she have handled an ILU.

In fact, I'm still not sure she's actually ready, but she at least is much closer than she was before her time travel adventure.

[KAOS Agent]

No, no. There are plenty of places where it needed to be said. Honestly, Emma doesn't need to be ready to hear it. A child who grew up thinking she was completely unloved needs to hear those words. Repeatedly. And how could they not have said we'll love you forever and we'll miss you when they said goodbye at the town line in Going Home? They didn't know she'd be losing her memories at that point, so shouldn't the final takeaway message from her parents have been about love? Emma being able to handle it shouldn't even have come into the equation at that point. Maybe they did say it and I've forgotten. Someone please find me an instance where these people actually express their love to their daughter. For a show that's all about True Love and hope it should not be this difficult for me to recall a time when Snowing said they loved Emma.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Henry knew his father for 2 weeks. I'm not saying he shouldn't be sad, but I don't actually think it's strange that he wouldn't have the same emotional reaction he'd have at the loss of Emma, Regina, or Snowing (or even Archie). At this point I think he'll miss the idea of a father, rather than Neal himself (and he can do fatherly things with Charming as well. Bonus point: he won't let him be a dick to Emma! Hopefully).

 

I agree it wasn't so much Neal but the father figure. He's fatherless now, so that's got to be hard to accept. He thought his dad was a bad guy, then found out he was much different (at least to him), but then he immediately loses him. There's also the fact that not only did he die, but he was murdered. (Again this is from Henry's perspective, not mine.) I'm not saying he needs to break down and sob for hours, but he seemed almost apathetic about it. Keep in mind I'm talking about after he gained his memories and went to Neal's grave.

 

Neal's death in general felt rushed to me. Graham's death had two whole weeks in Storybrooke time and he was still mourned over, but they seem to be pretty much over Neal in a few days.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

ITA @KAOSAgent. I can't believe that in "Lost Girl" that Emma is sitting there telling Snow that she still feels like an unloved and unwanted orphan and Snow didn't feel compelled to say to her at some point (even in a follow up episode) "I love you". I think that Snow withholding that sentiment because she thinks Emma isn't ready to hear it is deranged (if that is in fact the reason). There are so many problems with that whole approach to Emma, and I'm not gonna get into them because I don't have all day, but there is only one instance of Snow telling Emma that she loves her. It happened in Echo Cave. Here's the transcript in part where Snow says it:

 

Snow [to David] (emphasis mine): "Ever since the curse broke, since we found each other, since we found Emma. In all of that happiness, there's something I haven't wanted to admit. Our daughter is a beautiful, smart, amazing woman whom I love very much and of whom I could not be more proud. But she's all grown up and as much as I want to pretend I'm okay with that, I'm not. We missed it David. What we have with her is unique, but it's not what I wanted."

 

LOL, I just re-read that and I think it's worse now than when I heard it the first time around. Especially since we're specifically talking about the times that Snow and Charming have said I love you to Emma. JFC, so basically Emma has been told exactly once by a parent that they love her, but it was followed by "but you're not what we wanted". LMAO. Oh, Show. You're twisted. I think I hate you.

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

Snow [to David] (emphasis mine): Ever since the curse broke, since we found each other, since we found Emma. In all of that happiness, there's something I haven't wanted to admit. Our daughter is a beautiful, smart, amazing woman whom I love very much and of whom I could not be more proud. But she's all grown up and as much as I want to pretend I'm okay with that, I'm not. We missed it David. What we have with her is unique, but it's not what I wanted.

 

How does a person react to their parents saying "you're not what I wanted" and saying "I just pretended to be ok with who you are". That basically contradicts everything she said directly before it. Is that an extreme case of hyperbole or something?

 

Yet Emma believes she was the one who brushed off her parents?

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

Yeah, Snow, it's not what Emma wanted, either.  That's where a balance is missing, she should be putting that in her equation.  And then adding it all up and seeing it is all Regina's doing, and stop kissing Regina's ass and worrying about Regina's little feelings.

[FabulousTater]

Yet Emma believes she was the one who brushed off her parents?

There are not enough words in the Oxford and Merriam-Webster english dictionaries combined to describe how irritating and just plain enraging I found that whole entire outcome of s3B. Oh, of course, Show. It was all Emma's fault. Naaaaturally. *Grrrr* . Not enough words. I'm flipping tables here, people. Flipping. Tables. *aggressively flips tables*

[KingOfHearts]

Snow: "Thanks for breaking the curse Emma, but we don't need you any more! Have fun with your boyfriend. If there's another curse, we'll give you a call."

 

Elsa and Emma are a great parallel - two royal blondes with special powers who have neglectful parents.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I won't even bother listing the princes. All the cartoon guys were better for sure.

In the "classic" era (pre the Little Mermaid revival), the only cartoon prince who got a name and a personality was Philip in Sleeping Beauty. Otherwise, they were nonentities, and I think our David is way, way more interesting than Snow White's Prince Charming, who had just about zero relationship with Snow White before kissing her corpse and who didn't do much of anything. Actually, our David is essentially the movie Philip -- he ran into his true love in the woods and then decided against going into an arranged marriage (though in Philip's case, the arranged marriage turned out to be the girl he met in the woods), he rebelled against his father about the arranged marriage, he has a dry sense of humor and a great deal of courage and he battled dragon Maleficent. All he's missing is the contentious relationship with his horse. Show Philip is missing movie Philip's snark (though I'm not sure he's supposed to actually be the counterpart to movie Philip, since our Aurora is apparently the daughter of movie Aurora). The other princes, like their movie counterparts, are mostly set dressing.

 

The upside to Henry not remembering is more Woegina which I do not need.

Yeah, I'm not sure I could have taken much more of Woegina gazing at Henry wistfully. I just wish that when he got his memories back, he got all his memories back, including the ones she wiped and the memory of her wiping them instead of him going right back to thinking she was the best mom ever and able to be part of a True Love's Kiss with her. Him remembering her but being horrified about what she'd done to him and the fact that she'd used magic to lie to him would have worked as her "sacrifice." Then his response to her wistful gazes would be a shudder instead of obliviousness.

[Camera One]

I think our David is way, way more interesting than Snow White's Prince Charming, who had just about zero relationship with Snow White

 

Replying in Other Fairy Tales.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

I don't think what Snow said in the echo cave was about Emma personally, which may or may not be worse to some. Snow wasn't thinking of what kind of kid she wanted, her whole beef was she wanted to be a mom. The type of mom that changed diapers and burped her kid and made stupid cootchie coo faces at a baby. She wanted the experience of being a mom and no matter who Emma was, she wasn't going to get that unless Emma was a month old baby.  It wasn't so much "I want a new kid" as "I want another chance to be a real mom."

 

Which yeah kind of sucks for Emma who probably grew up in foster homes facing that every time cause she wasn't a cute newborn anymore but the show isn't going to touch that.

 

 

 

Yet Emma believes she was the one who brushed off her parents?

 

Well Emma did do that. She can be pretty stone cold. The only thing I hated was that they presented the story like Emma was in the wrong and didn't have reasons for her feelings. There can be 2 wrongs or 2 rights. But they always do this when she's going against Snow. It's always Emma who needs to learn the lesson like that diner speech. It's always "Snow knows best." Which is just a symptom of the bigger problem on the show. They see their story one certain way and will push that view till the cows come home and you cry uncle. I really don't know why they just can't write a story (that naturally comes with 2 or multiple views) and let the chips fall where they may. There's no grey. There's only Eva is evil!  Woegina is the biggest victim!
 

[Camera One]

As been said a million times, it's two things: 

1. The writers making assumptions because it's clear in THEIR mind, but they don't bother to show it on screen because they think it's obvious.

2. The writers having no interest to write for Snow and Charming's relationship with Emma, instead using them for narration, as Regina props and being victimized for suspense.

 

I would like more than anyone to have Snow and Charming express their love for Emma, and we haven't, and not because Snow and Charming don't care about or love Emma, but because the writers think it's obvious and not worth the screentime.  Non-verbally, Ginny Goodwin and Josh Dallas I think try to portray that whenever they can.  The best example of their pride in Emma was how much they beamed at her in "Lost Girl" when she was trying to decode that map.  The writers are choosing to instead show Snow being duped by Zelena, and they clearly prefer to use Snow as a prop for the Regina redemption.  They do a bit more with Charming trying to gain rapport with Emma, but seriously, it would be a bit weird, if he suddenly stopped Emma in the forest said, "I love you".  I mean, "You know your mother and I love you," would be awesome but kinda awkward.  This needs built-in time, and in Season 3, the writers did not want to invest in that.  They wanted to feature the new villains, redeem Regina and in Emma's case, throw in as many Hook scenes as possible.  

 

I really hope the writers get the memo that they need to show Snow and Charming outwardly and verbally showing love for Emma and that she comes first to them.  Someone needs to tell them that there is a disconnect between what they wrote/believed and how it came off in terms of Snow/Charming/Emma and they need to fix it in 4A.  Unlike the Neal fiasco, I think this mistake is more easily reparable, and I think the actors want it and are up to it.  

Edited August 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

But will the writers (and fans) be able to let go of the focus on "Frozen", Regina and Emma/Hook?

 

I would, because 1) I'm one of the only people on the face of the planet who hasn't seen Frozen so I don't give two hoots, 2) I'm so over Regina, and 3) as much as Captain Swan makes me melt into a puddle of goo, the Charming Family is more important to me. I need for these three people to learn about each other and come together to heal and accept what they've lost and learn how to move forward with what they have. I need to see them crying for what they've lost and I need to see the "it's not fair"s and I need to see the "I love you"s. It's not enough for me to imagine that it happened in Offscreensville.

[FabulousTater]

I would like more than anyone to have Snow and Charming express their love for Emma, and we haven't, and not because Snow and Charming don't care about or love Emma, but because the writers think it's obvious and not worth the screentime.  Non-verbally, Ginny Goodwin and Josh Dallas I think try to portray that whenever they can.

That's rather the sticking point isn't it. We don't actually know if they really love Emma as much as our own personal headcanons would like us to believe because it's never been said or really dealt with in the show. EVER. Anything we go by is based on our own personal interpretation of a microsecond glance Snow or Charming may throw Emma's way, which is all then undermined by the behaviour of the characters. The dialogue absolutely contradicts and undermines those few moments we manage to spot on screen and that allow us to delude ourselves into believing there's more than is being said or acted on. 

 

The best example of their pride in Emma was how much they beamed at her in "Lost Girl" when she was trying to decode that map

But what were they proud of? They were proud that she was The Savior. There's a world of difference, especially for character like Emma, between being wanted and loved because you're a prophesied savior that can save people's butts and just being adored because you're you. A huge, ginormous world of difference. And the fact that when Snow and David decided to return to "A Land Without Magic" it was purely motivated by needing Emma to save them (because that's all they talked about), then what the hell am I supposed to think?! I can't sit here and invent good intentions and motivations when there's nothing to support those suppositions except, well, I just can't believe otherwise. Because to do that is not watching the show. That's living inside my own personal headcanon.

 

FWiW, I want to believe the best of Snow and Charming, but I just can't pretend something's there when it's not. The show needs to show their work here. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well Emma did do that. She can be pretty stone cold.

She was in S1, but not as much so in S3. Her parents didn't give her any valid reasons to stay, nor did they actually tell her they wanted her to be with them. If Emma's cold after all her character development, it's because she doesn't have anything to latch on to.

 

Snow and Charming use Emma as a tool. They only use her to save their hides and break curses. In the Missing Year, they were dead set on not interfering with Emma. When they needed to take advantage of her light magic because a random witch made threats, they didn't give a crap about interrupting Emma's happy ending. 

 

Being the child of Prince Charming and Snow White really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

She was in S1, but not as much so in S3

I agree with you for the most part @KingOfHearts, but I just wanted to mention that Emma in "Hat Trick" told Mary Margaret that she considered her family, so I wouldn't say that Emma was stone cold in s1 either. Aloof at times, definitely. But stone cold? No. Regina is stone cold. Rumpel? Stone cold. Emma? not so much.

[Rumsy4]

Well Emma did do that. She can be pretty stone cold. The only thing I hated was that they presented the story like Emma was in the wrong and didn't have reasons for her feelings. There can be 2 wrongs or 2 rights.

 

 

Being the child of Prince Charming and Snow White really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

I think Emma did close-off after the Curse broke, but she was starting to thaw by the end of 3A. Then they had to force New York angst, which made Emma irritating to watch for most of 3B because she kept parroting that she wanted to go back to New York. On the other hand, Season 3 convinced me that Snow and Charming will always put each other first over anything and anyone, even their children. David is marginally better than Snow, but at the end of the day, I don't agree with Snow that he is a "wonderful father". He has the potential to be one, but he hasn't had that much of a chance. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

On the other hand, Season 3 convinced me that Snow and Charming will always put each other first over anything and anyone, even their children.

 

New York City Serenade sold the deal for me on that one. Others might interpret it differently, but I believe they avoided Emma and told everyone to go with them because they wanted to get back to their shiny thrones. They didn't care worth a darn that the witch was terrorizing the land with flying monkeys, but when she threatened them, they took action.

 

I really hated when they were patronizing everyone in 3x12. Demanding Regina to go with them, giving Hook dirty looks over being a pirate, telling Neal he can't try to get his dad and son back, not being upset at all about losing Emma, immediately taking charge of everyone after a tragic goodbye... it makes me raise my eyebrow.

 

They cursed an entire land just because a witch muahahed them. It wasn't to save the kingdom, but themselves. You can't tell me they had an entire year to figure out how to defeat Zelena and didn't find a single alternative. It only took a week in Storybrooke, and they didn't even need Emma!

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

[...] Season 3 convinced me that Snow and Charming will always put each other first over anything and anyone, even their children. David is marginally better than Snow, but at the end of the day, I don't agree with Snow that he is a "wonderful father". He has the potential to be one, but he hasn't had that much of a chance. 

Same. All the heart splitting scene proved to me is that Snow would throw anyone over, including her children, for Charming's sake. Which fine. Great. But stop trying to sell me that Emma's problems with her "parents" are all Emma's own fault. 

 

I too find Snow saying to David, "you are a great father" (or whatever the line was) baffling. I distinctly remember thinking to myself "Uh, he's a good father based on.....????" Sure he's been a decent "friend" to Emma, but father? No, no. That's a role David has yet to fill. And if you're judging his being "a great father" because he talks to her like a friend, then Hook qualifies for being a great father to Emma too. Actually, Hook would be in the lead because he keeps pushing Emma to embrace those around her instead of giving up on her and being like "Welp, I tried."

 

So just stop, Show. Having Snow White state her own personal delusion aloud won't make me believe it anymore than I believe that Regina is a "good person" that feels with her "soul". At this point I'm more likely to believe anything the Devil himself says versus anything Snow White says.

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

She was in S1, but not as much so in S3. Her parents didn't give her any valid reasons to stay, nor did they actually tell her they wanted her to be with them. If Emma's cold after all her character development, it's because she doesn't have anything to latch on to.

Sorry, but I call foul on this. It was clear that Snow and Charming wanted Emma to stay in Storybrooke. Snow flat-out told Emma that she and Henry wouldn't be as happy in NYC because that's not where their family was. And while I agree that the sentiment wasn't phrased in the most gracious way, that is a moment where Snow told Emma that she should stay in Storybrooke, with her family. Y'all can't ream out Snow for saying that Emma should stay in Storybrooke and then also claim that she never indicated her desire for Emma to stay in Storybrooke.

 

Also disagree that David isn't a good father. Has he not had much of an opportunity to be a dad? Yes, absolutely. But he's done well with the opportunities he's been given. How dare the guy jump in front of 3658464 fireballs for Emma! And honestly, isn't that what a couple who's basically expecting their first child says to each other all the time anyway? "You'll be a great/wonderful/awesome mother/father"? Let's be real, functionally Snow and David are first-time parents on the show, for all the good and bad that entails.

 

The only thing I hated was that they presented the story like Emma was in the wrong and didn't have reasons for her feelings. There can be 2 wrongs or 2 rights.... Which is just a symptom of the bigger problem on the show. They see their story one certain way and will push that view till the cows come home and you cry uncle.

This I do agree with. I do wish the show had given Emma's desire to go back to New York more legitimacy--but then, it also really couldn't, if you think about it, because Emma and Henry going back to NYC was absolutely the right thing to do, so the show had to act like it was 100% a mistake, because if they opened the door 1% to "maybe going back to NYC is a good idea," it would be like a runaway horse, where the audience really would realize that yeah, Emma and Henry really should go back to NYC.

 

But as you said, @Jean, it's a symptom of the show's larger problem with forcing ONE INTERPRETATION down the audience's throats until we all gag on it.

[Rumsy4]

Sorry, but I call foul on this. It was clear that Snow and Charming wanted Emma to stay in Storybrooke. Snow flat-out told Emma that she and Henry wouldn't be as happy in NYC because that's not where their family was. 

 

Sure--she told Emma she had to stay with her family, once they were all back in Storybrooke. But as most of her S3B screen-time involved spending time with Zelena and Regina, it didn't really come across as a sentiment consistent with the rest of her behavior.  

 

But he's done well with the opportunities he's been given. How dare the guy jump in front of 3658464 fireballs for Emma! And honestly, isn't that what a couple who's basically expecting their first child says to each other all the time anyway? "You'll be a great/wonderful/awesome mother/father"? 

 

He is Charming after all--of course he's going to jump in front of a fireball for Emma. But then, Emma has also risked her life for the sake of Snow. But I wouldn't call Emma a wonderful daughter either. They're all still learning to be a family, but Snow saying that Charming was already a wonderful struck a jarring note in my head. Especially as her response came across as defensive. I know I'm nitpicking here, but neither Charming nor Snow discussed Emma as the reason why Snow should not stay behind in Neverland, but Snow alone gets the bad rap for that scene. The real issue is with the writers, of course. In trying to create a romantic and moving moment for Snowing, they ignored the pesky issue of them having a daughter who would also be affected by their decisions. 

 

 

I do wish the show had given Emma's desire to go back to New York more legitimacy--but then, it also really couldn't, if you think about it, because Emma and Henry going back to NYC was absolutely the right thing to do, so the show had to act like it was 100% a mistake

 

Fully agree on this. The best arrangement would have been for Emma and Henry to go back to New York, and visit every once in a while. Storybrooke is a dangerous place, and despite Emma having dated a flying monkey, New York would be much safer. In fact, we don't even know if any of the Cursed people can't leave Storybrooke. Regina cast the first Curse, and she was able to leave Storybrooke. Snowing cast the second Curse. So, wouldn't they be able to leave? None of them have Cursed identities anymore anyway. Can't they all leave? They could all go to visit Emma and Henry in New York. It's not like they needed to write each other off if they went back to New York. The Show presented a false dichotomy. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Rumsy4

[FabulousTater]

Snow flat-out told Emma that she and Henry wouldn't be as happy in NYC because that's not where their family was. And while I agree that the sentiment wasn't phrased in the most gracious way, that is a moment where Snow told Emma that she should stay in Storybrooke, with her family. Y'all can't ream out Snow for saying that Emma should stay in Storybrooke and then also claim that she never indicated her desire for Emma to stay in Storybrooke.

And this is where everyone's personal interpretations come out because the show gives us very little actual facts to work with.

 

Emma told Snow she wanted to go back to NYC because NYC was "home" for her and Henry. Snow told Emma it was only "home" for them because they didn't remember everyone else. That isn't Snow telling Emma to stay in Storybrooke because she wants her to stay and it's not Snow asking Emma to stay because her family loves her and wants her around, IMO. It's Snow telling Emma what she feels is home is wrong. If Snow wants Emma to stay then the writers can have her say it. It's really easy, "Emma, please stay here with us because we want you." But it's not what the writers had Snow say (bad, writers. BAD). If some want to believe that was Snow's not very gracious way of asking Emma to stay, then so be it. But based on the words exchanged in that conversation, that's not what I took away. Telling someone they're wrong about how they feel isn't the same as asking them to stay with you because they are wanted and loved.

 

ETA:

Here's the scene transcript in part (Apparently, I'm on a transcript duty today! :-P )

Emma: Our life in New York was really good.

Snow: I'm sure it was, but it wasn't home.

Emma: It was for us.

Snow: That's because you forgot about us.

 

The writing does Snow no favors here with that last line -- it's not like Emma chose to forget everyone on purpose. She was cursed without memories! IIRC, Snow, you chose to move on with your life while in full custody of all your memories, and thought of Enchanted Forest and David as "home" so...ya.

 

Goodwin needs to write a strongly worded letter to the writers: "Dear writers, Please stop butchering my character. Please, I beg you. Otherwise, I will send a squadron of bluebirds to poop upon you every time you step outside. And don't think I can't. I'm Snow effing White. You've been warned." :-P

Edited August 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Dani-Ellie]

I know I'm nitpicking here, but neither Charming nor Snow discussed Emma as the reason why Snow should not stay behind in Neverland, but Snow alone gets the bad rap for that scene.

 

Both of them are on my shit list for that. Charming gets a teeny tiny pass from me because he was the one whose life was at stake but neither one of them considered Emma. There was no "You can't stay here, you need to go back with Emma and Henry" from Charming. There was no "You're not going to ever know your daughter or grandson" from Snow. Neither of them even bothered to think of a solution. The fact that it took Emma all of two conversations to come up with one doesn't help, because it makes the answer so damn easy that it's like "Why the hell couldn't you two have taken five damn minutes to think about it before just giving up?"

[Shanna Marie]

In general, this show suffers from some huge gaps between the showing and the telling.

 

For instance, it shows us that Snow was almost entirely innocent in the Daniel debacle -- she was a child, she was trying to help Regina, and she was manipulated by Cora. It's pretty black and white. But as the series has progressed, it has told us that Snow was a brat who continued her mother's nasty ways and has strongly implied that Regina's revenge scheme was at least partially justified. Just as they showed us that Cora was a scheming social climber who conned Leopold into marrying her while she was pregnant with another man's child, who lied to him about this and tried to make it look like Eva was the liar, and who was stealing from him to pay off a blackmailer, but then they turned right around and told us that Eva had darkness in her and that her family wasn't entirely the good guys because of her actions.

 

The show seems to imply that Snow and David love Emma and want to be a family together, but what it shows is that they only think about her when they need her. I really don't think that's what they mean to imply, but the way the story is structured, that's how it comes across. (Mostly because they can't be bothered to show anyone's emotional response to anything unless it's Regina weeping or being distraught. Regina got to be sad about leaving Henry behind, but Snow had to console her rather than showing any reaction to leaving her daughter and grandson behind.)

 

They write these events, but then the way the characters react and talk about the events doesn't at all fit the events as they were depicted.

[KingOfHearts]

I agree with Tater that because we didn't see things on screen, it makes it more difficult to interpret. (It makes debate on magic rules tough too, ha!)

 

Snow: That's because you forgot about us.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that is nowhere close to a valid reason to stay, Snow. If Emma remembered them and still wanted to move to New York, what in the world would she say? 

 

"Please risk Henry's safety so you can be magical backup for Regina once in a while, thanks."

Edited August 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

That conversation with Snow did her absolutely zero favors. Emma had expressed her unhappiness by saying she'd forgotten what it was like in Storybrooke with its witches and time travelling holy wars. She also obliquely referenced how difficult it was to have regained her memories. Then, when she mentioned that she was happy and life was good in New York, Snow brushed it off by saying well, yeah but it wasn't home. So Emma's happiness and safety aren't legitimate reasons to want to go back to NYC? It starts to come off as who cares whether you're happy or not, the only thing that matters is your family. The family that had twice planned to leave Emma because they wanted to live somewhere else - once completely by choice with the beans and once by staying in Neverland. So the message is that Emma is wrong for wanting to live elsewhere, but Snow & David can choose to live wherever they want regardless of whether Emma wants to go with them? Nice double standard.

 

Apparently, Emma is the only character who is obligated to sacrifice her life and happiness for everyone else. And the fact that she is the one who must sacrifice for all of these people who have screwed her over is very troublesome. Emma is a character who has so many problems and has suffered so much and so desperately needs to work through her issues, but her own wants and needs are continuously painted as selfish and wrong. And you know, sometimes they are wrong, but for someone who never had her needs and feelings taken into account for her entire childhood, I feel like she's freaking entitled to a bit of selfishness now that she has control of her life. The writing needs to give some balance to Emma and not just feed a storyline where Emma's very realistic feelings are always painted as wrong and mean.

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched An Apple Red as Blood. It's one of my favorite episodes.

 

This episode is awesome because of the curse-breaking suspense running through it. You have Regina seeing the signs, Rumple planning his trip, the fallout predictions, and it's all topped off with the epic apple turnover twist at the end. At that point, you know something is about to go down. It's one of my most treasured twists in the history of the show.

 

I really enjoyed the Regina nightmare sequence at the beginning. It pits you right inside how Regina thinks - that everyone is out to get her and she "never wins". I personally found it hilarious when Emma squeezes the apple and says "Yep. Rotten to the core.", with Regina gasping. Another scene that really took me was the scene where Mary Margaret reprimands Emma for leaving town. It makes me really miss S1 Snow, who wasn't afraid to tell it like it is. I wish she and Emma had the relationship that they did then.

 

The fairybacks were fairly cinematic, which I miss. They had a couple of great lines such as, "Red, you have someone on your chin" and "I miss Stealthy". The quality of the storytelling was excellent - it was more like a real independent story than just a supplement to the present day events.

 

Coincidentally, the official OUAT twitter posted a picture from the episode for throwback Thursday!

Edited August 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Brought this over from the "S03.E01: The Heart of the Truest Believer" thread

And for real, what was the point of Greg/Tamara? As happy as I was that their stupid selves were gone, it just made the whole back part of season two seem extra pointless.

In general, when you think about it, you can say the same about season 3A in the overall being pointless in terms of season 3B. I mean, what carried over? Nothing. No emotional arc, so to speak, for any of the character was derived from anything that happened in 3A.
 
Regina is still Regina (will she or won't she BBQ everyone? Will she cry about it? Tune in to find out!)
 
Rumpel? Still a deceptive and manipulative bastard, but Belle is still in his corner (Naturally, 'cause every mobster has his moll, every serial killer a groupie..). I guess Rumpel's without a quest item to find now that Douchefire is dead, but he already thought he was dead at the end of season 2, so in terms of 3B (and 3A, really)? Ya, ginormous waste of time.
 
Snow wanted a baby and now has one, but that's merely a plot point more than anything. (Could it have had ramifications? Yes. But that's not how it played out. Honestly, the way that stupid storyline played out it was the equivalent of landing on the baby square when playing "The Game of Life" board game. Congratulations, here's a peg. You'll need a bigger car now. Ugh.)
 
Emma had her light bulb moment at the normally scheduled time -- the season finale. But because of the way it was written, her emotional epiphany could've been plopped down at any point in the season. Or hell, they could've put this same episode somewhere in season 2 because there was no build-up to it and the root for her impulse for running away was based on this out of nowhere, horrible life advice given to her over a decade ago by Douchefire. It wasn't even based on anything that had been touched upon in past seasons or ever! The writers were like, Oh, we'll make something up (that fits our pulled out of our ass Oz arc -- "There's no place like home") and, of course, because Nealfire hasn't fucked Emma over enough, we'll add horrible advice to his list, "The 1001 Ways I Traumatized and Screwed Over Emma Swan - A Memoir by Douchefire". FFS. Emma's emotional story arc was so removed from the rest of the season that they could've scripted the s3 season finale episodes to directly follow the S2 finale and I wouldn't have even blinked.
 
This show wouldn't know how to do emotional (or logical) progression if it was written out for them in a guidebook, using small words, complementary instructive illustrations, and supplementary videos.

Edited August 10, 2014 by FabulousTater

[PixiePaws1]

FabulousTater. love the way you tell it the way it is.

The retcon of trying to make us believe FuckWitFire is a hero makes me want to vomit. The self serving smug little twerp offed himself...if only he'd done it before he emotionally eviscerated Emma and then stuffed her head with that 'run away from home to find it' garbage. ....argh!

[Camera One]

Emma had her light bulb moment at the normally scheduled time -- the season finale. But because of the way it was written, her emotional epiphany could've been plopped down at any point in the season.

 

Sadly, that is very true.  I mean, it could actually have followed "Heart of the Truest Believer", after she got into the argument with Snow and Charming, without any of 3A or 3B.  That was how stand-alone it was.