A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Many shows have arcs, where there is a bigger threat.  But these shows still manage to show the characters living their day to day lives while solving smaller problems.

I find myself comparing the structure to Person of Interest, which has had a major arc that's been building over the course of seasons, with minor arcs along the way, but then they still manage to do "number of the week" episodes. And even when they're up against an artificial intelligence that's taking over the world, the main characters manage to get together for a picnic in the park. Or they have an episode where they have to protect someone at a wedding, and the whole group manages to find cover identities to crash the wedding and manage to have fun at the reception and dance. I think we've had more slice of life moments and character conversations in that show where they're staring down the possible end of the free world than they manage in a fluffy fairytale show.

But I do think that some of the problem is that the writers have this self-imposed structure of half-season arcs with a certain pacing. Maybe the new network head's distaste for the big mid-season gap will do something about that. The way they pace reminds me of some of the worst aspects of the Harry Potter books, where they were forced to adhere to a school year structure, with the major end-of-book showdown always having to come at the end of the school term, and that meant that we had the introduction of the threat at the beginning of the school year, some rising action, then stalling until a major event at Christmas, then a lot of stalling until the end of the school year when everything could be resolved. With this show, the arcs aren't long enough for them to have time to show the slice-of-life stuff or to have one-off problem of the week episodes involving the main characters (funny, they have time to do almost entirely unrelated side episodes about Merida or Ruby and Dorothy, but we can't pause an arc to let Emma investigate fairy tale crimes) while the arc plays out in the background, but the arcs aren't really enough story material to sustain a whole half season, so they manage to feel stretched and rushed, all at the same time. If they weren't having to fit it into a precise 11-episode structure, then maybe the could draw out the arc a little more and fit in some more moments, while also developing the story a little better. The Camelot stuff, for instance, was so loosely sketched out. We still don't know how Merlin set up the Author, what happened with the Apprentice after Merlin was treed, etc. There was a lot of backstory there to work with, as well as present-day stories they could have told.

[KAOS Agent]

Buffy always managed to have a Big Bad while balancing with monster of the week episodes. That would be the show that I think kind of matches Once the best in terms of structure. I think the show works too hard towards the big twist instead of organically developing a cohesive story that makes sense and doesn't stall out in the middle. So we have the Dark Swan arc which really had nothing to do with Dark Swan and was all about getting to Dark!Hook with random Camelot stuff thrown in. It's pretty clear that the Camelot part was not the real thrust of their story because they couldn't even be bothered to close it out at the end of the arc. They didn't even bother to resolve it with a quick scene in the finale. Is Guinevere still sanded? Where is Lancelot? See ya, Merida! Why were you even there? And what about those poor lost souls in the river? Too bad, so sad Milah and Auntie Em. It's hard for me to even get invested in the stories anymore because I know I'll just get frustrated in the lack of closure. 

I've found that I'm mostly watching now because I enjoy the occasional scene with favorite characters and I like reading/commenting about the show. S5 was much more enjoyable for me than 4B, but I'm more apathetic now than ever. That finale did nothing to get me excited about S6. Is the Evil Queen going to run around chewing scenery for 11 episodes? Because that's going to get old fast. I could be interested in a Evil Queen/Hyde romance, but the resolution isn't going to be satisfying there because I don't see a Regina/Jekyll pairing working. 

[KingOfHearts]

The show lacks looming threats that drive the story and characters. Rumple is the only Big Bad that isn't constricted by arcs. He is implied to be the main antagonist of the entire series. However, it's only in the finales that his actions directly influence the main plot. The rest of the time, he's off in his own little world with the Box. The rest of the characters really don't seem to care about him, no matter how many times he has put them in danger. Besides him, there's really no other major conflict to glue everything together. It's just one big Rube Goldberg machine of random butterfly effects cascading down the timeline.

Rumple is the common denominator. If Robin had let him die in 4B, all of S5 would have never happened. Robin, Hook, Hades and Arthur would have never died. Jekyll/Hyde, the Evil Queen, the Queens of Darkness, Lily, the Camelot crew, Merida, and Hades would have never arrived in Storybrooke. Emma and Hook would never have become Dark Ones. Knowing how detrimental he is to the plot, it boggles my mind how irrelevant he is in spite of it all.

Edited June 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And yet they still had Emma going to Rumple for help to defeat Hades in "Last Rites", like they can trust anything he says or does.  And then he lied a day later in the finale when he claimed Storybrooke would be destroyed if Henry had destroyed magic and they all believed it.

The Writers didn't even need to bring in people from "The Land of Untold Stories".  The true Land of Untold Stories is actually Storybrooke, with all the ordinary Enchanted Forest characters ignored.  The protagonists could all have returned to Storybrooke in the 5B finale and found that everyone had lost their memories, and they needed to help everyone regain it or whatever.  Maybe without their memories, they no longer recognized Regina as the Mayor and the Charmings as the Sheriffs.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Rumple is the common denominator. If Robin had let him die in 4B, all of S5 would have never happened. Robin, Hook, Hades and Arthur would have never died. Jekyll/Hyde, the Evil Queen, the Queens of Darkness, Lily, the Camelot crew, Merida, and Hades would have never arrived in Storybrooke. Emma and Hook would never have become Dark Ones. Knowing how detrimental he is to the plot, it boggles my mind how irrelevant he is in spite of it all.

This is really what's still bugging me during this hiatus.

When the Apprentice removed the darkness from Rumple's heart, he said that Rumple lived as the Dark One for centuries, and that the transition would be very difficult for him. But instead of showing me how hard he had it which would sort of have justified his douche move in 5x11, they decided that he would sleep for 4 episodes instead.

Why not have Rumple wake up in Storybrooke while everyone is gone, and have people look at him without fear. I mean maybe Moe goes after him with a cane for a change. Show me how vulnerable he's become, and how the people who were so scared of him aren't any longer. 

Does Rumple revert to his old pre-Dark One self? 

This is squandered potential for a story for Rumple who is no longer the Dark One, trying to adapt, having limitations, his handicap is back. And not for nothing, but Rumple spent 6 weeks in New York without his powers, so it's not the first time this happens to him, but this is twice they just decided to completely forgo that. The difference between him in New York, and him in Storybrooke is that in New York, no one knows him, and he hasn't done anything to these people. In Storybrooke, his shop is filled with things that don't even belong to him, he screwed people over with his deals, and the list goes on.

Did we really need to see Merida make Rumple brave with that whole stupid mini arc when they could have actually done something far more decent, and delved a bit into Rumple's psyche? Maybe they could have resolved stuff with RB once and for all instead of giving us Belle shoving Gaston in the River of Lost Souls.

Plus everyone is gone from Storybrooke, and Sneazy of all people is the sheriff. They could have drawn a direct parallel with season 2 when Regina's powers were barely there, and a mob formed in front of her house because people wanted to kill her for what she'd done to them. Except this time, there's no Emma or David around to intervene, and restore order.

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

And yet they still had Emma going to Rumple for help to defeat Hades in "Last Rites", like they can trust anything he says or does.  And then he lied a day later in the finale when he claimed Storybrooke would be destroyed if Henry had destroyed magic and they all believed it.

The Writers didn't even need to bring in people from "The Land of Untold Stories".  The true Land of Untold Stories is actually Storybrooke, with all the ordinary Enchanted Forest characters ignored.  The protagonists could all have returned to Storybrooke in the 5B finale and found that everyone had lost their memories, and they needed to help everyone regain it or whatever.  Maybe without their memories, they no longer recognized Regina as the Mayor and the Charmings as the Sheriffs.

Snow told Hyde that they hated Rumple while they were caged. It's the first time someone actually expresses that, I think.

If I were the townsfolk, I'd question a lot of things. Everytime the Charmings and Regina are gone, the town seems to function just fine, there are no threats, life just seems to be better. Leroy said that much back in 3x06, and Sneazy said that everything was quiet in 5x01 right before everyone was brought back by the dark curse.

Next episode, a fury shows up as the welcoming party.

Edited June 4, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

When the Apprentice removed the darkness from Rumple's heart, he said that Rumple lived as the Dark One for centuries, and that the transition would be very difficult for him. But instead of showing me how hard he had it which would sort of have justified his douche move in 5x11, they decided that he would sleep for 4 episodes instead.

Why not have Rumple wake up in Storybrooke while everyone is gone, and have people look at him without fear. I mean maybe Moe goes after him with a cane for a change. Show me how vulnerable he's become, and how the people who were so scared of him aren't any longer. 

Ooh, that would have been really interesting. Rumple was the evil landlord in Storybrooke all those years, and before that, who knows how many people he'd done deals with where they ended up feeling ripped off. Shouldn't everyone have found it very interesting that he was suddenly without his powers? If he'd had to face people without any backup like that, it would have explained why he would have done anything to be the Dark One again. I'd have been more interested in seeing him having to stand up to the townspeople than seeing him fight a bear. Facing people he'd wronged without his powers and maybe making some kind of apology or amends to them would have been more a mark of heroism than fighting a bear to save his wife.

Though I still don't understand why Robin felt it was so important to save Rumple back in season 4. I'd call that one of the series' biggest plot holes because it made no sense. Robin put himself and his family at risk to steal a magic potion to save a person who was dying from his own evil -- someone who'd tortured him and threatened to kill his child. Why? It wasn't like he was saving him from some other threat in a rare situation in which Rumple was innocent. Rumple was facing the consequences of his own evil. Why go to such lengths to save him? Maybe heroes won't let villains sacrifice themselves and won't kill villains or let other people kill villains when the villains are helpless, but are heroes obligated to save the villains from their own evil so they can go on and do even more evil? I guess that's a question for the morality thread, but this was an action that set up the entire season 5 arc, and it seems utterly silly.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Maybe heroes won't let villains sacrifice themselves and won't kill villains or let other people kill villains when the villains are helpless, but are heroes obligated to save the villains from their own evil so they can go on and do even more evil? I guess that's a question for the morality thread, but this was an action that set up the entire season 5 arc, and it seems utterly silly.

I utterly hate the notion of letting someone dangerous like Rumple live just because killing is wrong. Why didn't Robin ask himself why Rumple was banished? What if he was going to kill the entire town and the only way to stop him was to send him over the town line? It's not vengeance. It's about the safety of your friends and family. The contradiction is that by not letting him die, he's letting others die. Either way, someone is going to die.

[Camera One]

The Apprentice actually did die.  No one seemed to care, though.  That alone is questionable considering the apparent bleeding hearts of these "heroes".

[Camera One]

Did they ever explain why Hook went to the Underworld?  He died a hero and saved Emma.  Why would he have unfinished business?  Of course, A&E arbitrarily decided who would have unfinished business or not, but still... Hook should have gone directly into the light.

I'm thinking about what would have happened if Emma did NOT go down to the Underworld to save Hook.  The only fully "good guy" who would remain stranded in the Underworld would be Hercules and Megara (who wouldn't have escaped).  I find it highly unlikely that Zeus would let his son hang in limbo under Hades for that long (probably he had no powers in the Underworld, but they never spelled that out and Zeus could have tried to save Herc in a more roundabout way).  

Hades would have tortured Hook anyway (though who knows why), and no one would have saved him, so he would have gone into the River of Lost Souls.  Hades would not have Rumple so he wouldn't have been able to open a portal to get Zelena's baby.  Not that Hades ever tried to go up and talk to Zelena anyway.  Hades' entire plan would have been a total non-starter.

Zelena would have come back from Oz to try to steal her baby (snooze).  She wouldn't have been redeemed so she wouldn't just give Red the silver slippers, but they wouldn't need it since they could have used the Elder Wand to open a portal to Oz so Red could give Dorothy TLK.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I utterly hate the notion of letting someone dangerous like Rumple live just because killing is wrong.

The strange thing about it was that it wasn't killing. It would have been letting nature run its course. Why did Robin take a big risk to steal the potion to save Rumple? How many people died and how much suffering happened because Robin didn't just say, "Oh, sorry to hear that evil is ultimately fatal"? I know that the real reason is that Rumple is a main character and they're not going to let him die, but if they're stuck with that constraint, they need to come up with better reasons for the characters to keep him alive.

[Camera One]

Rumple is a main character and they're not going to let him die, but if they're stuck with that constraint, they need to come up with better reasons for the characters to keep him alive.

Well said.  Reasons that don't require making the "heroes" seem completely oblivious or stupid.  

Saving Rumple was in parallel with that flashback where Robin Hood learned that if you steal for the right reasons, you're a hero.  Riiiiiiiiiiight...

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/4/2016 at 8:12 AM, YaddaYadda said:

If I were the townsfolk, I'd question a lot of things. Everytime the Charmings and Regina are gone, the town seems to function just fine, there are no threats, life just seems to be better. Leroy said that much back in 3x06, and Sneazy said that everything was quiet in 5x01 right before everyone was brought back by the dark curse.

Next episode, a fury shows up as the welcoming party.

I think it's really more Rumple and Regina than the Charmings. Cora came to Storybrooke because of Rumple and Regina, and Hook came because of Rumple (he may be an asset now, but he caused some trouble initially). It was Rumple's idiot son, who came to town because of Rumple, who brought Tamara to town, and it was Regina who got out the Failsafe, all of which eventually led to Pan coming to town and the curse being reversed (and Pan was able to get the curse because Regina refused to believe that something was wrong with "Henry" when Pan as Henry was scamming her). Ingrid and Elsa were in the mess they were in mostly because of Rumple, and Rumple sent the Chernabog in and brought the Queens of Darkness to town, with help from Regina. Rumple's black heart led to all the Dark One and Camelot issues. The fury was there because Regina burned a village, which led to Percival's revenge, which got Robin hurt, which led to them making Emma heal him, which led to the fury. Wasn't it Rumple who allowed Hyde into town? (I'd kind of zoned out on the finale by then and haven't rewatched.) Get rid of Rumple and Regina, and the town would probably be a lot more peaceful.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Saving Rumple was in parallel with that flashback where Robin Hood learned that if you steal for the right reasons, you're a hero.  Riiiiiiiiiiight...

I guess he's consistent with his eagerness to be seen as a hero, even if it's stupid. This is the man who left behind a newborn and a child who's already lost his mother to go into the Underworld on behalf of a man he barely knew, just because he wanted to show his children an example of being a hero. So he probably considered breaking into a furniture store to steal the potion to save the biggest villain ever from dying of the consequences of his own evil as a great heroic act, even though it caused a lot of damage, death, and heartache, including his own death.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The fury was there because Regina burned a village, which led to Percival's revenge, which got Robin hurt, which led to them making Emma heal him, which led to the fury.

Even though I doubt it was intentional, the Fury was such a foreshadowing of Robin's death. I would even argue that Hades killing him was the price of not paying the Fury. That's the only way I can resolve the stupid holding-hands thing. (A&E's lackluster writing was what truly killed him, though.)

Edited June 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's the only way I can resolve the stupid holding-hands thing.

They one-upped that with the Wishes at the Fountain thing.

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Even though I doubt it was intentional, the Fury was such a foreshadowing of Robin's death. I would even argue that Hades killing him was the price of not paying the Fury. That's the only way I can resolve the stupid holding-hands thing. (A&E's lackluster writing was what truly killed him, though.)

They could have so easily tied that loose end together with Robin's death. I have no idea if the writers forgot all about 5x02, in which case, please hire someone who oversees these things FULL TIME, or if they just didn't give a crap. 

There was a whole chain reaction created after Percival stabbed Robin, and a price for magic that was never paid. Sorry Robin, but saving your life, and not paying the price for magic means that instead of you getting to have unfinished business, or moving on to a better place, well you just stop existing altogether. You can thank your girlfriend.

It would also have been one of those things where "hey, people, don't mess with things you don't understand!"

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, I think that was intentional.  Not tying Robin Hood's death back to the Percival thing exaggerates the Regina-lost-Robin-but-Emma-got-Hook-back "unfairness".  The Percival thing puts at least some of the fault back on Regina, which the Writers do not want.  They framed the final episode as how the universe was unfair to Regina, how she was trying her best but it was sooooo difficult to keep her base impulses down.  The Percival incident would necessitate that Regina look backwards and realize that there were consequences to her past actions.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Percival incident would necessitate that Regina look backwards and realize that there were consequences to her past actions.

The irony is that calling back to the Percival incident in the finale would have been the perfect segue into explaining why Regina wanted to separate from the Evil Queen part of her so much. Why didn't she bring that up during her pity party monologue to Emma? Why did we have Emma apologizing at all when there was something a lot more juicy to discuss with the whole Percival thing? The writers are too afraid to bring up Percival/The Fury again because they don't want to tarnish their poor Regina's reputation, but they can't run away from Regina's past in an arc that's going to be all about exploring that past part of her. It just makes no sense to me. At all.

As a writer, shouldn't they be itching to bring that piece of continuity back into the picture? Adam & Eddy always brag about how they "plan" these plot twists far out in advance, so why wouldn't they try to toot their own horn and say, "We planned Robin's death all the way back in Episode 2 and we hinted at the Evil Queen returning based on that scene with Percival. Percival attempting to kill Regina for something the Evil Queen did was foreshadowing Season 6's arc about the Evil Queen versus Regina. The audience thought Regina was able to escape her Evil Queen past in 5x02, but the fact that she didn't actually pay a price should have been a sign that Robin's life still had to be taken and that Regina can never truly run away from the terrible things she did as the Evil Queen." Yet again, they accidentally set something up perfectly and don't even see it right in front of their faces because of the REC.

[Rumsy4]

52 minutes ago, Curio said:

The writers ... can't run away from Regina's past in an arc that's going to be all about exploring that past part of her. 

We'll likely watch them do just that in S6. ;-)

[KingOfHearts]

With S5, a lot happened but nothing happened. Most of the characters reverted to their S4 selves in the finale, with Zelena being the only notable exception. It's all very circular and the finale just solidified it.

[Camera One]

Quote

but they can't run away from Regina's past in an arc that's going to be all about exploring that past part of her.

Taking this to Regina thread.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I don't care about the characters any more. Robin died and it didn't tug any heartstrings. Captain Swan got back together, but it was just a brief reunion. Zelena is just kind of there now. Belle has been demoted to a box, and Rumple isn't even a character any more. If Snow and Charming were written off the show, it wouldn't affect anything. They're practically non-existent. After all that, there's Regina, who has been my favorite character since I started watching. She lost her depth and complexity when her psyche could be divided into clear-cut caricatures. There's nowhere to go but down for her because no matter what progress she makes, the writers will destroy it.

Nothing I want for these characters is remotely obtainable any more. The S5 finale felt like a big "screw you".

Edited June 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Regina needs to put on her big girl panties and deal with her issues! Unfortunately, that would mean de-woobie-fying her, and the writers clearly aren't willing to do that.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Dianthus said:

Regina needs to put on her big girl panties and deal with her issues! Unfortunately, that would mean de-woobie-fying her, and the writers clearly aren't willing to do that.

Replying in Regina thread.

Edited June 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

The S5 finale was the first time Snow and Charming have been outside of Storybrooke. It ticks me off that they had no reaction to it whatsoever, much like Henry with EF in S4. I've wanted Snowing to see the world their daughter grew up in. New York is so incredibly different from everything they've seen so far, so why do they not care? I feel like the real world is such a non-element now. 

There was zero point in having the finale take place in New York if you take out the irrelevant "destroy magic" plot. Magic was brought to the Land Without Magic, purple storms formed over a hotel, a crowd of people believed, and a giant fountain portal opened up. Why is it that such big events were utterly pointless? I've been waiting such a long time for Once to dip into LWM things, but the finale just solidifies the idea that having the setting in our world is unnecessary. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The S5 finale was the first time Snow and Charming have been outside of Storybrooke. It ticks me off that they had no reaction to it whatsoever, much like Henry with EF in S4. I've wanted Snowing to see the world their daughter grew up in. New York is so incredibly different from everything they've seen so far, so why do they not care? I feel like the real world is such a non-element now. 
 

They gave Violet a reaction. She's more important than Snowing, so...

Also, Hook looking for Rumple in NYC while wearing his hook. I get the New Yorkers don't give a fuck about anything or anyone really, but the hook...

And that thought just opened up a whole can of worms for me from when he was arrested in 3x12. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Also, Hook looking for Rumple in NYC while wearing his hook. I get the New Yorkers don't give a fuck about anything or anyone really, but the hook...

That hook looks like a freaking weapon. Usually hooks that are used for the handless are much smaller and less dangerous. Hook stabbed that thing right through Rumple's chest. It penetrated so deeply that it could stick there without anyone holding it.

Edited June 12, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

In high school, one of my math teachers had a hook for a hand.  It makes me sad that a useful prosthetic is not allowed.   A rubber hand might look nice but it can't do anything. 

[Faemonic]

On 6/9/2016 at 9:12 AM, KingOfHearts said:

Nothing I want for these characters is remotely obtainable any more. The S5 finale felt like a big "screw you".

Eight words to doom any show: "I don't care what happens to these characters."

[KingOfHearts]

Once is good at sounding like an awesome show. It's got Disney characters, dragon fights, an LGBT couple, Frozen, a sexy cast, realm-sized stories, fairy tale characters living in the real world, writers from Lost, a beautiful setting, witty dialogue, elaborate costumes, likeable heroes and freaking Robert Carlyle. If you only look at the iconography and moments, it's OMG-worthy. It's amazing how creative the ideas can be while also failing hard in the execution. The writing is so terrible for the scale and intricacy provided. 

[Camera One]

When I watch the recap shows, the show always seems better than it is.  You can't tell the pacing problems.  The redundancy and the lack of character and plot development is not as glaring since you just see the big unearned emotional moments and the major twists.  The recap shows highlight the creativity of the mash-ups without revealing how shallow or unsatisfying they might have been, and seeing quick snaps of the various realms hide the complete lack of worldbuilding.

[Shanna Marie]

This show is so frustrating because it has so much potential to be good. The premise is rather brilliant, most of the characters are fascinating, and for the most part they're perfectly cast with performers who bring a lot to the role. There are clever ideas along the way, and they're capable of creating wonderful moments. But the day-to-day writing is pretty terrible. The pacing is poor. The plots make no sense. Plot elements come out of nowhere with no setup or are dropped with no payoff. The characters aren't allowed to react like normal human beings or even in ways that are in character for them. For the most part, the writing skims the surface of everything -- the source material, the situation, the plot, the characterization. 

And yet, there's enough potential, enough good moments, that it's hard to quit, no matter how frustrating it is. I just keep wanting to fix it.

On another (though related) note, Brave is in TV right now, and since I'm in a hotel and too tired to do anything else, I'm watching it. I'd worried that the awful depiction of Merida on this show would ruin the movie for me, but it's so different that I don't even make the connection. It's like they didn't even watch the movie before incorporating Merida into the show. They just threw in a Scottish character with curly red hair and called her Merida, then threw in a few little notes relating to the movie, but it wouldn't have changed much of anything if she'd been some random character rather than Merida. Then there's their worldbuilding issue of apparently forgetting that there shouldn't be a Scotland in that world, that it was DunBroch (or whatever), and had Hook, who's from the other world, refer to Merida as a "Scot." Geeze, guys, keep your worlds straight.

[TheGreenKnight]

I hated Brave and that's why I hated Merida on the show. I thought the casting was perfect for Merida and the Witch, I just hate the film/characters and that extended to their presence ontakeover of the show.

[YaddaYadda]

56 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is the main reason why Regina is so popular with some. She is portrayed as a victim by the writing, not just through her eyes, but through the eyes of other charatcers as well. No one is allowed to call her out, unless they are "dark". Her thoughts and motivations have been dwelt into the most by the Show. Many people admire those who are powerful. And Regina's power is somehow perceived as healthy self-confidence. It's in the biased writing.

From the fandom thread.

When Regina lost Daniel, I don't believe she had magic did she? She had the potential for it, but she wasn't "actively" magical.

The writers should have stripped her from her magic entirely when they decided to split the character into 2 separate entities. The other way they could go around this would also be to have her be corrupted by her magic. 

I think my single biggest worry next season is that she will start sputtering light magic, and that might make me leave the show altogether if it happens.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The writers should have stripped her from her magic entirely when they decided to split the character into 2 separate entities. The other way they could go around this would also be to have her be corrupted by her magic. 

I was hoping this would happen. Regina didn't learn magic until she became the Evil Queen. Dark magic is fueled by anger and negative emotions, which Pure!Regina shouldn't be very capable of.

Edited June 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina didn't learn magic until she became the Evil Queen. Dark magic is fueled by anger and negative emotions, which Pure!Regina shouldn't be very capable of.

Until the episode "Sisters" I'd agree with you, but now they've hinted at Regina being magical even as a child, which kind of sucks because it would have been a lot more interesting to see a character have to learn magic from scratch without being born with magical genes like Zelena and Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think my single biggest worry next season is that she will start sputtering light magic, and that might make me leave the show altogether if it happens.

She was already capable of having the most powerful light magic, apparently even more powerful than Glinda, while the Evil Queen was still part of her and she was missing her heart. So yeah, light magic is pretty much a given. Really, if all her negative impulses are gone, we should have already seen a distinct difference. I mean, Jekyll and Hyde are totally different people. If they aren't going to use different actors, there needed to be a more obvious difference. Regina has lost what she had just talked about as being her driving force that affects the way she sees everything that happens to her.  I still believe that a totally good Regina who remembers doing all those awful things should have had a breakdown. Would a totally good person pass the blame onto her bad self, or would she acknowledge that it was a part of her who did it, and therefore feel guilty about it? You'd think a person with all her bad impulses removed would have been squeamish about reaching into someone's chest and ripping out her heart and crushing it. We've been told all along that heroes don't kill -- apparently not even for self defense (mostly). Shouldn't she have had qualms? It's likely to be even more baffling going forward, since I suspect that all they'd planned at this point was the big Evil Queen reveal. I doubt they'd worked out how Regina and the Evil Queen would act and how the split would affect them.

It would be really funny if Regina started being more like the cartoon version of Snow White -- all sunshine, rainbows, and optimism, since she has no darkness in her at all, while everyone else has to be the harsh realists, the way Regina usually is to Snow.

[Curio]

26 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would be really funny if Regina started being more like the cartoon version of Snow White -- all sunshine, rainbows, and optimism, since she has no darkness in her at all, while everyone else has to be the harsh realists, the way Regina usually is to Snow.

Are we supposed to make a direct connection to Snow forcing Emma's darkness out of her in Season 4 and Snow encouraging Regina to force her darkness out in Season 5? If we are, why the hell didn't the characters learn any lessons? Shouldn't Emma have had a lightbulb moment where she was like, "Wait, I was pissed off when I learned you guys took darkness out of me as a baby, why are we making Regina do the same thing now?" Did all the characters collectively forget 4B ever happened, much like I've tried to do?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Until the episode "Sisters" I'd agree with you, but now they've hinted at Regina being magical even as a child, which kind of sucks because it would have been a lot more interesting to see a character have to learn magic from scratch without being born with magical genes like Zelena and Emma.

Eh, that's one thing I just don't put too much stock in. They showed us Snow doing magic back in season 2 with the ink on the parchment. 

Regina learned through books, and had a mentor, and even with all of that, she had a difficult time. Plus why didn't Cora teach Regina magic if she really had it in her all along? Was it to keep Rumple away from her? I'm sure it had nothing to do with Henry Sr because she had nothing but contempt for his opinion on how to raise Regina.

The writers could have made Regina an even more special snowflake with innate magical abilities. They didn't (and I don't take 5x19 as confirmation of that personally).

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Until the episode "Sisters" I'd agree with you, but now they've hinted at Regina being magical even as a child, which kind of sucks because it would have been a lot more interesting to see a character have to learn magic from scratch without being born with magical genes like Zelena and Emma.

That episode didn't show she had magic as a child. She was only able to open the drawer because the magic protected against everything but blood relatives. As for the wand, magical objects don't require magic practitioners to function. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[pezgirl7]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I'm finally catching up on the Paris con happenings, and seeing all the photos of the actors having fun together makes me a bit sad, because they all seem to get along so well. Why couldn't the writers have brought some of that fun to the show? We got a little bit of it with Hook and Arthur in the underworld, and Hook and Zelena and their snark in the Jeckyll/Hide world, but I feel like there was so much missed opportunity. On a shallow note, I will miss Robin and Arthur's attractive faces! I don't think I would enjoy this show as much as I do if it weren't for the actors and all the behind the scenes stuff.

[Curio]

50 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I'm finally catching up on the Paris con happenings, and seeing all the photos of the actors having fun together makes me a bit sad, because they all seem to get along so well. Why couldn't the writers have brought some of that fun to the show?

Ironically, the actors who seem to not be the closest off set are the ones the writers push to have the biggest friendship on screen. 

I agree, the show should utilize the natural chemistry between the different actor combinations more and let them have fun. I think the reason Regina and Zelena were paired together so often in 5B is because the writers wanted to tap into Lana and Bex's real-life friendship, and it translated on screen. But still, it seems like the show went really dark this year with not enough fun moments to balance it. The writers think giving the villains snarky lines is "fun," but you need the heroes and good guys to have fun moments too, otherwise it becomes emotionally draining.

There's a difference between having episodes like the Shattered Spell/Marx Brothers Hour where they think that's "fun" because the writers are making fun of the show's characters, and genuinely light-hearted moments where Emma and Snow can laugh about something funny David did. When's the last time a main character genuinely laughed because of a funny situation? (The Shattered Sight spell doesn't count. The fact that everyone was happy and laughing after an incident where people should and could have died is incredibly tone deaf.) The closest thing I can think of is Emma kind of half-laughing when Hook was trying to explain how Zeus brought him back from the dead, but I don't think that actually counts as laughter. Otherwise, it seems like only the villains are allowed to laugh on the show because of some maniacal plot. Why can't these people have fun and laughter in their lives?

Actually, this might be a fun hiatus game. Let's count the number of times the characters were allowed to laugh in Season 5, and organize it by villain and hero. 

Edit: It might also be good to organize it by present-day plot versus flashbacks. Putting laughter into the flashback doesn't offset how shitty everyone's lives are in the present.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Curio

[Selina K]

Not sure where this should go, but I would be interested in some sort of comparison in "hype" or "interest" on these boards after this finale versus last years.  I did a quick check in spoilers and between the end of the season 4 finale and july, we had over ten pages of not super spoilery since there were no spoilers per se, speculation and conversation.  Obviously this year we have zero because the thread was locked.  I feel like within our community, the interest in 'what ifs' and 'maybes' is at an all time low following this finale.  There isn't much in spec without spoilers and we've had a few offshoots of relationship analysis, but I don't see anything approaching last year's interest or excitement.  Is there a way to compare post volume from last year to this year?  I feel like we're much slower this May and June than previously.

[YaddaYadda]

I think there's just too many variables going into season 6 with the untold stories. With Regina/EQ thing, it's a whole been there, done that because of Operation Mongoose, and just how stupid the characters truly are. Meanwhile 4x22 ended with the Apprentice telling Emma, Hook, and Henry that they needed to find Merlin, Emma telling Hook she loved him, taking on the darkness before disappearing. We knew Camelot was a real thing. There was the arguing back and forth about Regina being the new Savior, because I don't know why, there was the arguing about who would play a bigger role in helping Emma, the speculations that her parents would be there for her (which they sadly weren't).

The difference is also that they didn't even do a post-season interview at all. Emma was the Dark One, Hook was the Dark One, Hook died, Emma went to get him, and that plan went to hell quickly, they killed off one of their regulars who was one of their main characters love interest, Belle is in a box (I still don't get why she's in a box, is it because she's easier to transport that way?), Rumple is off on some quest in another realm full of power, but pretty "helpless" to save Belle because she doesn't wanna be saved by him anymore. Plus their whole "twist" of Regina and the EQ, bringing in Jekyll and Hyde, and the untold stories.

They've been pretty mum on everything. 

[Curio]

I guess we could go back and count posts in all the threads comparing last year's hiatus to this year's, but I don't think that's necessary. It's pretty obvious the excitement isn't as high this summer, and @YaddaYadda summed it up succinctly. Traveling to a new realm versus staying in boring Storybrooke? Obviously Camelot is a much more exciting thing to speculate about. Emma turning into a Dark One versus rehash #135 of the Evil Queen? Emma's situation was much more unique and mysterious. We know exactly how this Evil Queen/Regina plot is going to end, exactly like we knew Operation Dumbass would eventually be meaningless because you're in charge of your own destiny. They really dropped the ball by creating a predictable cliffhanger this year (it was voted EW's cliffhanger you could see coming a mile away), and I think they're putting way too much stock into the viewers thinking the Evil Queen is an interesting twist. 

[YaddaYadda]

The Evil Queen might have been an interesting twist if we weren't treated to her flashbacks several times in a season. The Evil Queen might have been an interesting twist if say Hyde had gotten a hold of Regina, and forced the serum on her, taking her agency away like she did to so many people. It might have been an interesting twist if we didn't see the Evil Queen and Regina as two separate entities, especially since it doesn't even look like Regina has been declawed in the least. Let's split Regina and the Evil Queen, but Regina gets to remain exactly as she is, magic and all, preserving the status quo. Obviously just taking this from her interaction with Hyde in 5x23.

I like Storybrooke personally (and also because I know the set stalkers will provide spoilers), and since we are looking at a season 1 type of possible dynamic in the town, then I'm okay with them staying put especially with how easy it has become to just go from one realm to the other, which is a complete joke. The untold stories have potential, and that's the way they're going to be leaving the town without leaving it. But untold stories are extremely vague, we don't know which stories they will choose to do.

The Hunchback? The Musketeers (maybe David learned sword fighting from REAL swordsmen)? Don Quixote? Sinbad? Maybe they find Dory in Storybrooke in human form. Maybe they'll bring Hook and Rumple's mothers as untold stories (and no, not related, before anyone decides to say that).

They have a lot of possibilities, which in a way is scary because I find that the more possibilities they have, the great chance of them fucking up becomes. See Camelot and the Underworld. 

In the end, it's probably a lot better to have really small arcs within the season than what we've had the last 3 seasons. We'll see if the excitement level changes when we start having press releases, and spoilers. But in many ways, it really feels like the show is winding down.

[Shanna Marie]

What little we've heard about next season has potential, but that's all been in the interviews. It doesn't come from the cliffhanger itself. Looking back at the previous season enders:

Season one -- the curse is broken! Magic is back! Emma has reunited with her parents! I can't wait to see what happens next.

Season two -- they're heading to Neverland, and there's so much character conflict on board that ship that there's no telling what will happen.

Season three -- Elsa! I wonder how they'll pull that off. Will Belle find out that Rumple is lying to her? What will happen with the Marian/Robin/Regina mess? What will a relationship between Emma and Hook look like? I'm not on the edge of my seat, but I'm intrigued.

Season four -- What will Dark One Emma be like? Where did she go? How will they get to her? How can they save her? It sounds like Merlin will be involved, based on what the Apprentice said, so does that mean we'll be seeing Camelot?

Season five -- We know what the Evil Queen is like, and they've defeated her before, and we're pretty sure the outcome will be Regina reintegrating herself. The "untold stories" people coming to town is a little too vague to get too excited about. Maybe they should have shown us at least a glimpse of the possible consequences. We know Belle will get out of the box and wake up when Emilie is back from maternity leave, and odds are, she'll be right back with Rumple soon. I guess maybe Hook and Emma will finally get to move into that white picket fence Victorian. There's been nothing in this that captures my imagination or that has me eager to see what happens next.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The Hunchback? The Musketeers (maybe David learned sword fighting from REAL swordsmen)? Don Quixote? Sinbad? Maybe they find Dory in Storybrooke in human form. Maybe they'll bring Hook and Rumple's mothers as untold stories (and no, not related, before anyone decides to say that).

I expect a Merida-type character to appeal to modern audiences. 

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I expect a Merida-type character to appeal to modern audiences. 

Unless she's written as completely unappealing which is exactly what they did. 

[RadioGirl27]

3 hours ago, Selina K said:

Not sure where this should go, but I would be interested in some sort of comparison in "hype" or "interest" on these boards after this finale versus last years.

The finale was so bad and the "cliffhanger" so underwhelming that is really difficult to get hyped for next season.

[Joanh23]

i'm sure Regina fans are excited at the prospect of double the Regina/EQ but I was never really a fan so this storyline just doesn't excite me.  That said I am looking forward to seeing more of Jekyl & Hyde.