S04.E12: Irish Goodbye

[Snarklepuss]

16 minutes ago, Eri said:

As much of a decent guy he is, Josh is still very much an immature bonehead. Of COURSE he'd have a fourth-date marriage with an Irish girl he's known less than a month because he's unhappy. He can't stand liars but he wants Liza to lie for him? She introduced you to someone new so you can move on, she's done her part and you're even now.  I was concerned that he or Claire were planning to blackmail Liza with her "secret" if she didn't comply - when is she going to stop "owing" him? F*** him, keep it moving. They'd have been better off with Josh committing to leave the US to live in Ireland with Claire and write him off the show for a while.

This exactly!  Josh told Liza the lie was Claire's idea but he still went along with it.  Charles isn't alone in showing some serious flaws this season.  Neither guy is looking so great as of right now.  What a bad way to end a season!  It's very disappointing from a viewer POV.  When I first learned Josh was going to Ireland I thought he was going to stay there.  The more I think about it the more I don't understand why he and Claire didn't do the "90 Day Fiance" route in the U.S.
 

26 minutes ago, Eri said:

I'm not invested in the "Will they/won't they" with Charles and Liza anymore either. He unwillingly accepts the situation with his ex for the sake of the company so either move them forward or cut them loose. This show will not last another season unless they move the story forward instead of all the yo-yoing.

All the men sucked this season.

I think they ruined the flow of the show by building the tension between Charles and Liza and then leaving us "high and dry" so to speak.  If they wait much longer after the start of next season even the most ardent Charles fans will start to cool off on it.

[CarolMK]

I'm a bit confused by the wedding. Since when is a priest allowed to marry a couple outdoors? Doesn't a Roman Catholic wedding have to be performed in a church with a full Mass? I know this was set in Ireland but I thought the rules were the same as in the United States. Also, I'm not sure about this, but if the marriage doesn't work out, is divorce legal in Ireland? Or would they get a divorce in the US but Ireland wouldn't recognize it, so Claire couldn't get married again. Plus, whether civil or religious, there is a 90 day waiting period to marry in Ireland.

The Charles/Liza storyline is going into boring overtime. I wish that they'd had a romance this past season. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by CarolMK

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, CarolMK said:

I'm a bit confused by the wedding. Since when is a priest allowed to marry a couple outdoors? Doesn't a Roman Catholic wedding have to be performed in a church with a full Mass? I know this was set in Ireland but I thought the rules were the same as in the United States. Also, I'm not sure about this, but if the marriage doesn't work out, is divorce legal in Ireland? Or would they get a divorce in the US but Ireland wouldn't recognize it, so Claire couldn't get married again. Plus, whether civil or religious, there is a 90 day waiting period to marry in Ireland.

Divorce is legal in Ireland. It's harder, but you can do it. One of the most important parts of international diplomacy is ensuring that US judgments are upheld in foreign jurisdictions. This includes many aspects of family law such as marriage (but not gay marriage), divorce, and child custody.

Josh and Clare can get divorced, but there might be some extra headaches.

Edited September 17, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Snarklepuss]

9 hours ago, CarolMK said:

I'm a bit confused by the wedding. Since when is a priest allowed to marry a couple outdoors? Doesn't a Roman Catholic wedding have to be performed in a church with a full Mass? I know this was set in Ireland but I thought the rules were the same as in the United States. Also, I'm not sure about this, but if the marriage doesn't work out, is divorce legal in Ireland? Or would they get a divorce in the US but Ireland wouldn't recognize it, so Claire couldn't get married again. Plus, whether civil or religious, there is a 90 day waiting period to marry in Ireland.

The Charles/Liza storyline is going into boring overtime. I wish that they'd had a romance this past season. 

Divorce has been legal in Ireland since 1995, so I have read, but the RC church there still does not recognize it. 

I'm reading conflicting things on the outdoor weddings.  Some sites claim they are not allowed in the RC church at all in Ireland but others say that interfaith marriages can be allowed to marry outdoors, although in interfaith marriages there are usually officiants present from the faiths of both partners.  I agree with you about a full mass being required.  I'm trying really hard to suspend disbelief with regard to this plot device.  Any exceptions to the rules would have had to be approved by the bishop way in advance with good reason provided. 

Unless of course the priest belonged to the Church of Ireland, which is the Protestant Anglican church in Ireland.  On one side Mr. Snarklepuss comes from that background.  We spent 10 days in Ireland visiting his relatives (his father was born there) in 2005.  I myself am Episcopalian, which is the American offshoot of the same root faith, originating from the Church of England.  I haven't read up on it thoroughly but I know they do recognize divorces in Ireland since 1996 and probably have much looser rules about where they can marry too.  Contrary to what a lot of people believe, churches in the Anglican Union tend to be some of the most liberal of the Protestant faiths, especially in the US and Europe.  But it varies.  They can run the gamut depending on the particular church.  There is a conservative wing of the church that split off from the liberal side in 2009 in the US.  On the liberal side we have openly gay non-celibate priests and bishops!  We are even in trouble with the entire Anglican Union for our support of same sex marriages!

Edited September 17, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[dubbel zout]

I think the local officiant has a decent amount of discretion on a lot of things about the ceremony. Some priests are going to be hardliners and insist on following everything to the theological letter, whereas others are more lenient. I can buy that in the small village where Claire lives, her priest (or, more likely, her mother's) is okay with relaxing a few rules as long as they don't outright conflict, e.g., he's fine with the ceremony being outdoors, but it can't be in held in the druid garden. 

[slaterain]

So if they were going to go with this ridiculous storyline with a half hour show and do it all in one episode - then they should have just gone all out!!! Charles should have flown to Ireland - found out about Josh's wedding but not realize it was to Claire, gone to stop/object, Liza is in the pews instead and pulls him aside after he embarrasses himself and actually shows passion/emotion!, Josh gets thrown seeing Charles there, Josh yells at Charles which stops the wedding and we are left with everything up in the air! Will the wedding continue? Will Josh punch Charles again? Will Liza finally choose? Will Charles and Liza finally get it on?!?!? 

but no - we are left with a bland, completely implausible finale that should have been multiple eps or the hour long that the guide bait and switched us on. ugh. For as much happened in the ep (international travel is no joke!) - absolutely nothing happened. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by slaterain

[MaggieG]

2 hours ago, slaterain said:

So if they were going to go with this ridiculous storyline with a half hour show and do it all in one episode - then they should have just gone all out!!! Charles should have flown to Ireland - found out about Josh's wedding but not realize it was to Claire, gone to stop/object, Liza is in the pews instead and pulls him aside after he embarrasses himself and actually shows passion/emotion!, Josh gets thrown seeing Charles there, Josh yells at Charles which stops the wedding and we are left with everything up in the air! Will the wedding continue? Will Josh punch Charles again? Will Liza finally choose? Will Charles and Liza finally get it on?!?!? 

 

That would have been way more exciting!

[Snarklepuss]

14 hours ago, slaterain said:

So if they were going to go with this ridiculous storyline with a half hour show and do it all in one episode - then they should have just gone all out!!! Charles should have flown to Ireland - found out about Josh's wedding but not realize it was to Claire, gone to stop/object, Liza is in the pews instead and pulls him aside after he embarrasses himself and actually shows passion/emotion!, Josh gets thrown seeing Charles there, Josh yells at Charles which stops the wedding and we are left with everything up in the air! Will the wedding continue? Will Josh punch Charles again? Will Liza finally choose? Will Charles and Liza finally get it on?!?!? 

but no - we are left with a bland, completely implausible finale that should have been multiple eps or the hour long that the guide bait and switched us on. ugh. For as much happened in the ep (international travel is no joke!) - absolutely nothing happened. 

Wow that WOULD have been way better!  Some of that might still happen.  There's still time for Charles to somehow find out that Josh got married and then think it was to Liza, only he won't go flying out there to attempt to prevent it.  I wonder why they went with such a bland season finale instead of something "meh" like this.  You're right, they set us up for something EPIC with all the international travel and then they pull a bait and switch making us think there was more intrigue in a second half hour when it was just some preview of a new show.  Ugh.

[dubbel zout]

Ugh, I don't want some stupid mixup with Josh's wedding. For one thing, Charles hasn't earned that. He just tells Liza he wants her and then sits back and waits for something to happen. How about those two actually talk about it? Have the hard conversations. But no, instead I'm supposed to find it dreamy that Charles is pining for Liza. I don't. He's so passive. If Liza won't take the reins, Pauline will, and Charles just trails along.

Josh is impetuous and kind of dumb, but at least he puts his money where his mouth his. Charles waits for the world to arrange his life for him. 

[slaterain]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Ugh, I don't want some stupid mixup with Josh's wedding. For one thing, Charles hasn't earned that. He just tells Liza he wants her and then sits back and waits for something to happen. How about those two actually talk about it? Have the hard conversations. But no, instead I'm supposed to find it dreamy that Charles is pining for Liza. I don't. He's so passive. If Liza won't take the reins, Pauline will, and Charles just trails along.

I definitely don't want my proposed scenario!!! But it was so ridiculous for absolutely no reason! Why didn't they decide to get married in NY before she gets sent away - all the same storyline would have worked and it wouldn't have felt so ridiculously gimmicky. and would have been slightly more logical/feasible. As much as this crazy show ignores reality (book published in three weeks?!?!) it would at least be on that level instead of just stupid and bland. 

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Josh is impetuous and kind of dumb, but at least he puts his money where his mouth his. Charles waits for the world to arrange his life for him. 

YES!!! this! and I'm beginning to lose any interest in Liza and Charles with his weird passive pursuit of her. 

[Snarklepuss]

20 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Ugh, I don't want some stupid mixup with Josh's wedding. For one thing, Charles hasn't earned that. He just tells Liza he wants her and then sits back and waits for something to happen. How about those two actually talk about it? Have the hard conversations. But no, instead I'm supposed to find it dreamy that Charles is pining for Liza. I don't. He's so passive. If Liza won't take the reins, Pauline will, and Charles just trails along.

Josh is impetuous and kind of dumb, but at least he puts his money where his mouth his. Charles waits for the world to arrange his life for him. 

A wedding mixup is IMO arguably even less ridiculous than what we've been forced to suffer through all season, especially in the finale.  At least Charles would be taking a stand and not letting himself be lead around by life.  Sitting around talking about it?  To me that would take all the excitement out of it.  Very un-romantic and anticlimactic.  That can come later.  First we want drama on the high seas!  Charles ripping his shirt off like in a romance novel, LOL.  I'm being facetious.  But only partially.....

Edited September 20, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Hanahope]

This marriage is incredibly rushed, of course for a tv show.  Josh couldn't bear to be away from Claire for a few weeks?  Its not like they can't communicate over the phone and internet.  And he can visit frequently, not like he has a boss and needs to get vacation time approved.   If they really wanted to do the whole green card thing, then have her apply for a fiance visa.  That really helps smooth things with Homeland.  My husband and I only had a few photos together (as we were separated for a while as he could only visit for a 3 month stint a couple of times), and Homeland didn't interview any of our friends.  But the fiance visa work showed we were serious, at least that was my thought.  

[sab85]

I'm Catholic and Catholic weddings don't have to have a full Mass but they do have to be in a Catholic church (there can be exceptions but they are rare).

[aradia22]

The music was implying there was something sinister or awful but really there was nothing that weird about Claire wanting Liza to lie and it's hard to take the moral high ground given the double life Liza's been leading. It's been more than a little white lie. 

I get wanting to have the all the drama and the change of scenery in Ireland but this all felt rather pointless. I keep... not caring about anything that happens in these episodes.

That was all pretty nice for a hastily arranged marriage.

That's your cliffhanger? A missed call from Charles? I think these easy renewals are making the writers lazy. They need something to light a fire under them. 

[Gothish520]

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

The music was implying there was something sinister or awful but really there was nothing that weird about Claire wanting Liza to lie and it's hard to take the moral high ground given the double life Liza's been leading. It's been more than a little white lie. 

I get wanting to have the all the drama and the change of scenery in Ireland but this all felt rather pointless. I keep... not caring about anything that happens in these episodes.

That was all pretty nice for a hastily arranged marriage.

That's your cliffhanger? A missed call from Charles? I think these easy renewals are making the writers lazy. They need something to light a fire under them. 

I agree that asking Liza to back them up was not as dark and terrible has they tried to make it...I think perhaps the issue was more that Liza knew it was too soon and she felt Josh was making a mistake. 

I agree, the missed call from Charles was a yawn. I honestly cannot discuss him without mentioning how boring he is. I got turned off by the idea of Liza and Charles when Josh caught them kissing. Yes, he was being a bit impetuous with the idea of proposing marriage, but he was following his heart  - nothing ventured, nothing gained. I really disliked Liza for a good couple of episodes after that.

[aradia22]

Quote

And I don't know what it is - whether Sutton's just aged a teeny bit or the fact that she's now taller than him (was she always?) or the writing, but for most of this episode their relationship seemed almost maternal, so when he kissed her it was... icky. And then the way he curled up on the bed made him seem very, very young. I don't know if that was deliberate, but the whole thing felt super-creepy. 

I don't know if it's because I've watched most of the previous seasons on TV and I watched this one on hulu but I've definitely noticed something weird about height difference. In some scenes, usually when they're walking side by side, Sutton (Liza) is taller than Nico (Josh) or Aasif (Jay). But when it's time for them to kiss, they do a tight shot where the guy suddenly becomes taller than her or closer in height. I'm not sure if she's wearing heels or she's just naturally taller than them but they seem to adjust because it would apparently be too jarring to see a woman be taller than a man she was romantically interested in even though they don't commit to the illusion the entire time so it just becomes confusing. They don't do this with Charles because I think he must be taller than Sutton. I noticed it when Claire was first introduced as well. When she was behind the bar she looked tiny talking to Sutton but when she parted with Nico at the end of the night they were closer in height. 

I also thought that bed scene felt off. She felt like his mom. 

[aradia22]

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I could see that happening like that, but I have to say as a 44 year old who just had my youngest head off to college- there's no way in HELL I'd want to start all the way over with child rearing.  I wouldn't think for Liza that it's just about the possible complications of having a baby at her age (medically) but having to start ALL OVER from the very beginning.  I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

I don't remember her thoughts about a baby in season 3. Was it just that she couldn't get pregnant or that she didn't want to do it all again? Because I thought part of her initial attraction to Charles was his kids. Though even that's complicated now that Pauline is back to co-parent. 

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

I don't know if it's because I've watched most of the previous seasons on TV and I watched this one on hulu but I've definitely noticed something weird about height difference. In some scenes, usually when they're walking side by side, Sutton (Liza) is taller than Nico (Josh) or Aasif (Jay). But when it's time for them to kiss, they do a tight shot where the guy suddenly becomes taller than her or closer in height. I'm not sure if she's wearing heels or she's just naturally taller than them but they seem to adjust because it would apparently be too jarring to see a woman be taller than a man she was romantically interested in even though they don't commit to the illusion the entire time so it just becomes confusing. They don't do this with Charles because I think he must be taller than Sutton. I noticed it when Claire was first introduced as well. When she was behind the bar she looked tiny talking to Sutton but when she parted with Nico at the end of the night they were closer in height. 

I also thought that bed scene felt off. She felt like his mom. 

According to the internet, Sutton is 5' 9", Nico is 6', Aasif is 5' 10" and Peter Hermann is a towering 6' 5". The actress who played Clare, Phoebe Dynevor, is 5' 5". With heels Sutton could easily hit 6' or more.