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Primetimer's Forums Are Here to Stay

S03.E17: Part 17

paigow

By paigow
in Twin Peaks [V]

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

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Before it all ends I just wanted to say thank you to everyone here, to those who left months ago, to the recapper who left months ago, and to those who are still here posting, speculating, enjoying or not enjoying. I don't come to Previously TV that much outside of a few forums so initially I was going to give this place a pass, but I'm so glad I didn't. I've always looked forward to reading comments here and getting a unique take on the show. 

I also wanted to say thank you to everyone who has been a fan for years and years and whose support helped get this back on the air. I'm what many in fandom would say is not a "real fan," because I only started about 3-4 years ago. I'm sorry to everyone who felt alienated by the revival and I hope you found something else you did enjoy.

This has been a strange, often terrifying summer and it would have been much harder to get through it without the show or without getting to come here. It's something I'm never going to forget, and I have all of you to thank for being a big part of this experience.  

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dosodog

dosodog

Thank you Pete Martell.  Your posts were so insightful and always heartfelt.  

There were so many levels of wonder, awe, creepiness and hope.  I'm glad my expectations were met.  Even though they changed along the way.

I don't want it to end.  I'm also planning on devoting next weekend to rewatching straight through.  It will be fascinating to see it through the perspective of knowing how things happened and what was important or not important! 

Y'all have been damn fine!  Like a cup of coffee and a slice of cherry pie from the Double R fine.

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I loved the scene with Freddie "killing" Bob more than just about anything else Lynch has ever done. It was absolutely perfect, absolutely delirious. And it was such effective use of Frank Silva you wouldn't know he'd passed away 20 years ago. 

I also liked that Lucy was now clued in, like Andy. I have to believe wherever they go in whatever universe, they will be together and happy. 

I really, really, really did not like what they did to Lucy in season 2, so this season has been incredible for me in terms of getting the old and best Lucy back. If nothing else I'll always be happy for that.

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Cheezwiz

Cheezwiz

It might take me awhile to process, but Episode 17 was mostly satisfying if a bit rushed, and then it veered right off the rails about 2/3rds of the way in. 

I'm sad that I won't get to enjoy the weekly anticipation of new episodes to chew over, but I'm just feeling intense fatigue with all of the doppelgangers, tulpas, mystery realms, and indeterminate arbitrary rules governing the various lodges and mystery realms. I still don't understand why Phillip Jeffries is a tea-kettle. My brain hurts, and honestly, I'm feeling a bit ripped off.

Mostly I'll really miss interacting with all the folks on these message boards. You've all been entertaining and thought-provoking, and I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and theories immensely!

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Guest

Guest

2 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

It might take me awhile to process, but Episode 17 was mostly satisfying if a bit rushed, and then it veered right off the rails about 2/3rds of the way in. 

 

I thought it veered off the rails in the first scene when Lynch decided to break the "show don't tell" rule of good storytelling by "telling" and not "showing" anything about the Judy story and his lazy 25-year quest at finding Cooper.  :( 

Cooper's superimposed face at the Sheriff's station also baffled me. Was there supposed to be a time shift at that point, too? 

One final picky part: Ben Horne had mentioned in another episode that the room keys were all changed to key cards years ago. Not sure why he left room 315 intact with a key entry.

I'll miss this board, too -- I was enthralled by the series (until last night) and was grateful to read everyone's insights. 

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Thog

Thog

Such a crazy mixture of satisfying and frustrating, but I will remember it for the "Hell, Yeah!" moments. Loved Lucy. Loved Freddie. Loved finding out that the theories about Naido/Diane were correct. And for Halloween I'm wearing jeans, a flannel shirt, and a green rubber glove. I may even carry a punch ball.

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Affogato

Affogato

4 hours ago, Thog said:

Such a crazy mixture of satisfying and frustrating, but I will remember it for the "Hell, Yeah!" moments. Loved Lucy. Loved Freddie. Loved finding out that the theories about Naido/Diane were correct. And for Halloween I'm wearing jeans, a flannel shirt, and a green rubber glove. I may even carry a punch ball.

I may, too, although my first choice was log lady.  This sounds simpler and one would always have bob to talk to if conversation flagged. 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

7 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I thought it veered off the rails in the first scene when Lynch decided to break the "show don't tell" rule of good storytelling by "telling" and not "showing" anything about the Judy story and his lazy 25-year quest at finding Cooper.  :( 

I would have had more of a reaction to that if the whole season hadn't used Cole and the gang for lengthy and somewhat strained expository scenes.  I was just hoping this wouldn't be the way the whole finale was. Thankfully it wasn't.

7 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Cooper's superimposed face at the Sheriff's station also baffled me. Was there supposed to be a time shift at that point, too? 

I think it was to show that Dale had become a puppet master/overly dominant in his realities. Whatever it was it was one of the most disturbing Twin Peaks images for me.

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Guest

Guest

5 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

I think it was to show that Dale had become a puppet master/overly dominant in his realities. Whatever it was it was one of the most disturbing Twin Peaks images for me.

Sounds more plausible than anything i could think of! 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

10 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Sounds more plausible than anything i could think of! 

Beyond that I thought it might be Dale watching himself back from the Lodge, as events repeat over and over with different turns but the same conclusion.

It reminded me of the coffee commercials again - the way the woman was superimposed (sort of). Those commercials were more relevant this season than I ever would have guessed.

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Affogato

Affogato

(edited)
8 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I thought it veered off the rails in the first scene when Lynch decided to break the "show don't tell" rule of good storytelling by "telling" and not "showing" anything about the Judy story and his lazy 25-year quest at finding Cooper.  :( 

Cooper's superimposed face at the Sheriff's station also baffled me. Was there supposed to be a time shift at that point, too? 

One final picky part: Ben Horne had mentioned in another episode that the room keys were all changed to key cards years ago. Not sure why he left room 315 intact with a key entry.

I'll miss this board, too -- I was enthralled by the series (until last night) and was grateful to read everyone's insights. 

I already wrote and lost a long message, so irritating.

Also, this story was shot, a lot of it, in the almost complete dark. I understand HDR, but still, really? However the room he opened with the 315 key was past electrical boxes, in the basement of the Great northern. I think they reused the keys. No idea how he found it, maybe the hum. I guess the 315 room was a teleporter, like Evil Coop used to get from Wyoming to the Sheriff's Station in Twin Peaks.

Jerry! I suspected the Hornes would get some sort of resolution, and the resolution is that life goes on and Ben will just clean up after them and be exasperated. 

Dune is all exposition, it always has been part of Lynch's fabric, but this also was the last time we saw the FBI group. Tammy stayed quiet, this was Albert and Cole. "I couldn't do it." "You're getting soft" "Not where it counts." "I understand." "I know you do." There is a lot of love and respect and demonstration of that relationship there, and I have no issues with them going out on that note, with a little exposition thrown in. speaking of Dune, the big cooper head translucency seems to me very ;much like Dune. He was leaving and in this moment, because of what he was doing, he would be remembered as something greater than a man. Not that he wanted that. 

My problem with Judy and the idea that we are all the pawns of these forces is that it is taking away some of the meaning of the show. Sarah Palmer, and count me confused about her scene stabbing that picture, earned a lot of pain. Husband rapes and kills daughter, rapes her, good reasons why she would sit in the dark and drink and smoke herself to death (along with beef jerky, which is probably carcinogenic, nitrites). So, she's just possessed by an evil spirit? Huh?

I guess Judy is the white blobby thing, so it did come up a few times. 

No one will convince me that the tea kettle is not deliberately a tribute to Bowie. It is the Tin Machine.

Edited by Affogato
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Affogato

Affogato

I suppose Lucy was somehow stuck in the past, and poor Andy with her, so she could be at the right place to get that call. Now she can man the full switchboard and the sheriff's department will save money by dropping a position? 

Diane remembers everything, so presumably she remembers Cooper raping her. Does she also remember everything her tulpa did? It seems to me that Cooper probably experienced what Dark Cooper was doing, at least while he was in the lodge. This is a whole lot to process, people. I wonder what Dougie does with these memories? Be happy to not be having adventures anymore?

Also, the guy who was ripping off his own face? WTF was the point? 

I think the set up for episode 18 is that Cooper has lost Laura, he has the coordinates to find her given to him at some time or another. 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

 My problem with Judy and the idea that we are all the pawns of these forces is that it is taking away some of the meaning of the show. Sarah Palmer, and count me confused about her scene stabbing that picture, earned a lot of pain. Husband rapes and kills daughter, rapes her, good reasons why she would sit in the dark and drink and smoke herself to death (along with beef jerky, which is probably carcinogenic, nitrites). So, she's just possessed by an evil spirit? Huh? 

I think with Sarah it's a chicken and egg. I don't think her pain is just from being possessed. I think she's been broken by grief for many years - even before Laura died. I think whatever happened to her feeds on her pain. Whether it was there from the start or helped cause her grief I guess we're supposed to guess for ourselves.  

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Affogato

Affogato

4 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

I think with Sarah it's a chicken and egg. I don't think her pain is just from being possessed. I think she's been broken by grief for many years - even before Laura died. I think whatever happened to her feeds on her pain. Whether it was there from the start or helped cause her grief I guess we're supposed to guess for ourselves.  

She did chain smoke and drink before Laura's death. I always assumed it was Leland's behavior and an indication that she knew what he was doing to Laura but was unwilling, for some reason, to stop it. So feeding on her makes sense, she would shine like a beacon to any hungry entity that feeds on such things.

Stabbing the picture may also mean something specific, since she doesn't injure the picture and we would have seen it shred under the chef's knife. I don't know what.

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PatternRec

PatternRec

(edited)
16 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I think with Sarah it's a chicken and egg. I don't think her pain is just from being possessed. I think she's been broken by grief for many years - even before Laura died. I think whatever happened to her feeds on her pain. Whether it was there from the start or helped cause her grief I guess we're supposed to guess for ourselves.  

Sarah may have been inhabited by Judy, but it's probably like what happened with Leland, who said when BOB left him, "When he was inside I didn't know and when he was gone I couldn't remember. He made me do things, terrible things." Sarah may not have remembered anything Judy did when Judy wasn't there, even if she had some sort of vague recollection that something is horribly wrong. 

 

16 hours ago, Affogato said:

Stabbing the picture may also mean something specific, since she doesn't injure the picture and we would have seen it shred under the chef's knife. I don't know what.

Judy was losing the fight/dying at that point. Either she was doing a ritual to try to keep Laura/The Fireman from winning, or she was simply lashing out at the thing causing her pain. 

Edited by PatternRec
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Ottis

Ottis

On 9/3/2017 at 9:39 PM, Pete Martell said:

I loved the scene with Freddie "killing" Bob more than just about anything else Lynch has ever done. It was absolutely perfect, absolutely delirious.

I suppose. My question is, why? Why this English guy, why a spring loaded punch, why can uber evil be killed by a punch? It brought together a few story elements, but I don't see any coherent reason for any of it aside from DL says so. This was one of my biggest, "Wait - what?" moments of many for this show and this ep.

20 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

Beyond that I thought it might be Dale watching himself back from the Lodge, as events repeat over and over with different turns but the same conclusion.

In my struggle to come up with a larger narrative, this is about where I landed. Not unlike Battlestar Galactica, "this has happened before, and it will happen again." No matter what Good Coop does, events end up the same in terms of big pieces (individuals and actions may vary). So I think I'm sad at the end of this season. Not sure, totally.

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

49 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I suppose. My question is, why? Why this English guy, why a spring loaded punch, why can uber evil be killed by a punch? It brought together a few story elements, but I don't see any coherent reason for any of it aside from DL says so. This was one of my biggest, "Wait - what?" moments of many for this show and this ep.

Some fans think the evil was separated into shards rather than completely killed, although I guess that's just speculation...

I know what you mean. It would be a copout and patronizing if I just said, "Oh don't expect an answer - it's David Lynch." I can see how it would be silly and stupid. I think I mostly just went with it because I thought the CGI orb made good use of Frank Silva's menace as Bob and because after all the time that the Giant and then more recently the White Lodge has been shown as so pristine and cautious, such absolute fuckery from them was amusing to me. And I liked Freddie, and I also think now that it was deliberately unreal and ridiculous because this isn't what was supposed to have happened - in a just world, Laura would have killed Bob, not some twink with a green glove who was plucked off a street in London and transplanted into a dying town in Washington. 

Again though I get why people would find it stupid.

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Ottis

Ottis

(edited)
24 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

Again though I get why people would find it stupid.

I didn't mean to say I found it stupid. I just couldn't see anything in the season (or past seasons) that provided any reason for this to be the answer. It would have made more sense to me if Gordon's hearing aids killed Bob - at least they had a longer backstory! I don't need a show to be logical in the sense of the real world. I just like it when pieces fit together. TPs:TR had both types of development. It feels like it could have been an incredible piece of art if some of the random stuff made more sense within the show's world, instead of like a dog walked by and jostled the artist's hand while painting. 

The sheer fact that there is so much to talk about with this show is wonderful. That's my kind of show.  Did others feel happy or sad about what the last episode indicated? I wonder if it's just me that feels like the show is telling Cooper he can't change the future (by messing with the past). 

Edited by Ottis
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PatternRec

PatternRec

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

I suppose. My question is, why? Why this English guy, why a spring loaded punch, why can uber evil be killed by a punch? It brought together a few story elements, but I don't see any coherent reason for any of it aside from DL says so. This was one of my biggest, "Wait - what?" moments of many for this show and this ep.

I think the glove storyline was something of a satire by Lynch and Frost. We basically have two endings here, the "superhero" ending and the ambiguous Lynchian ending. If you take out the surreal aspect Lynch and Frost are telling a comic book story: people fighting to save the world from evil forces that are attacking us from another dimension, with the intention of confronting the Queen of the realm itself, Judy, while "good" beings from the same dimension try to help us stop the bad ones. "I was taken into a portal and given a magic item that gives me powers to defeat a specific enemy by a god" is like half the marvel universe. But it's Twin Peaks so we get Glove Fist instead of Iron Fist. 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Just now, Ottis said:

I didn't mean to say I found it stupid. I just couldn't see anything in the season (or past seasons) that provided any reason for this to be the answer. It would have made more sense to me if Gordon's hearing aids killed Bob - at least they had a longer backstory! I don't need a show to be logical in the sense of the real world. I just like it when pieces fit together. TPs:TR had both types of development. It feels like it could have been an incredible piece of art if some of the random stuff made more sense within the show's world instead of like a dog walked buy and jostled the artist's hand while painting. 

The sheer fact that there is so much to talk about with this show is wonderful. That's my kind of show.  Did others feel happy or sad about what the last episode indicated? I wonder if it's just me that feels like the show is telling Cooper he can't change the future (by messing with the past). 

Sorry to misquote you. I loved it but I thought it was kind of ridiculously stupid so I was just putting words in your mouth.

I think Lynch saw that it had to happen but didn't want to put a lot of setup into it happening so just went with something absurd. And maybe it was to set up a sense of unreality as those scenes were so weird, especially when Cooper's giant head appeared.

I think it's heartbreaking for Laura above all else, as she was at peace. It's also sad for Dale, but I think it's part of the essence of Dale. He was a bit colder and harder and more sexual and violent once he became Richard, but the obsession with what it takes to be a hero and do good things and protect the innocent, even when it gets to a point of destruction and blindness - I think that was true to him. I think if this is Dale's end it's fitting. I think if they have another season then it may be about him finally accepting his flaws and letting go.

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PatternRec

PatternRec

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

In my struggle to come up with a larger narrative, this is about where I landed. Not unlike Battlestar Galactica, "this has happened before, and it will happen again." No matter what Good Coop does, events end up the same in terms of big pieces (individuals and actions may vary). So I think I'm sad at the end of this season. Not sure, totally.

I have a short theory - I think Coop and Laura won. Here's my elevator pitch for the ending explained: when Coop finds Laura they are already in Judy's realm, a trap that was set for Laura to keep her from being the Fireman's instrument to destroy her. When they get to Laura's old house it's not in Twin Peaks it's in the mirror version of Twin Peaks. The last two owners of the house are said to be the Tremonts and the Chalfonts, Lodge members. Then when Laura hears her name being spoken she "wakes up" and being fully awake, realizes the true horror of what Judy is and screams, but also because she is awake the house suddenly goes dark as Judy finally dies. 

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Ottis

Ottis

1 hour ago, PatternRec said:

Then when Laura hears her name being spoken she "wakes up" and being fully awake, realizes the true horror of what Judy is and screams, but also because she is awake the house suddenly goes dark as Judy finally dies. 

Why did Judy die because Laura "woke up" and realized her past? At this point it seems like Judy has the upper hand. Are you saying Laura's scream can kill the source of evil? I guess if we have a green-gloved, super punch dude, it's possible. 

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Affogato

Affogato

On 9/5/2017 at 2:21 PM, Pete Martell said:

Some fans think the evil was separated into shards rather than completely killed, although I guess that's just speculation...

 

If only I could get a sample of evil I'd run a few tests!

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Affogato

Affogato

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

I can refer you to a few exes of mine....

In my personal headcannon evil is a hologram and shattering it wouldn't break it, it would just allow it to spread faster and maybe in ways that aren't completely detectable. Hydra! Then the way to counter it is to shatter Brigg's giant head, so that good can take root as well. Freddie's next task.

I think that 17 was the satisfying superhero ending we all wanted so really I suspect that Bob was smashed and his works undone in our twin peaks, but not in all twin peaks.

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Nashville

Nashville

On 9/14/2017 at 10:28 AM, PatternRec said:

Does anyone know what episode the original footage used here was from?

If you're referring to the original opening montage (Josie daydreaming in the mirror, Pete telling Catherine "Going fishing", etc.), that's the very first set of opening scenes from the original TP series pilot - which is NOT the same thing as Season 1 Episode 1.  S1E1 picks up with Cooper recording a message to Diane after his first night in the Great Northern.  

The actual series pilot - which contains such things as Pete's discovery of Laura's body, Coop's arrival in TP, etc. - was not included with initial VHS or DVD releases of the series; in fact, it wasn't incorporated into the series releases until circa 2007 with the "Gold Box" release.  Prior to that, viewers who wanted to re-watch the pilot had to track down copies of the international pilot release, which had been issued as a standalone release.  The international release wasn't exactly the same as the pilot aired in the U. S., though, and finding copies in pre-Internet America was problematic - they were scarce as hen's teeth.  Took me over three years to track down a copy.  :).

The Gold Box (DVD) and Missing Pieces (Blu-Ray) releases both contain the pilot, though.  Thank god.

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Nashville

Nashville

14 minutes ago, PatternRec said:

@Nashville that stuff I know. I meant the stopping at the intersection, the shots of Leo, Jacques and Ronette, etc. I wanna compare those scenes to the originals. I think they may be from FWWM but I'm not sure. 

Yes, that part - Laura jumping off James' bike (I LOVE YOU JAMES!!!) and running through the woods until she met up with the Fun Crew - was from FWWM.

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