A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Except for Cleo, every single significant interaction she had pre-Storybrooke was with people who were also from the EF. And the Cleo backstory was somehow the worst of all. It really reduced Emma into a Cleo copycat, and made her a runaway until she was twenty-six.

Seriously - screw Cleo. I used to think Emma fans would love any flashback, but boy did her episode prove me wrong. Emma couldn't do anything if someone didn't hold her hand. She ultimately had no free will and everything was decided for her. Maybe that would've been interesting to explore, but all we got was Emma being pouty about it in 4B. She became the opposite of what her character was originally intended to be. "Push back and say 'No this is who I am'"? More like grovel in front of Regina or lie down to die because prophecy.

[Camera One]

The pathetic thing with that episode is they had to artificially make Emma naive and hopeful again at the beginning of the episode, just to tear her back down.  I don't see how these Writers can see themselves as character writers.  They completely ignored Emma's history.  She had been in jail, she had to give up her son so he could have his best chance, she was betrayed by her first love, and she was unchanged by all that?  If you watched all her flashbacks back-to-back, most people would have whip-lash from her outlook on life.  Maybe Emma (and Snow, for that matter) was an Energizer bunny and needed a boost to get some temporary hope and amnesia about all the crap they previously went through.

[companionenvy]

I actually didn't mind the Cleo backstory. Change isn't all that easy, even for people who have undergone what could be seen as transformative events. And Emma's transformative events, at that point, were negative ones that wouldn't have been likely to get her life on track. After a life of rejection and abandonment, she had seemed to be on the cusp of something better only to be abandoned again, by Neal, in the worst way possible. She gave up Henry because, even with how sucky her life had been, she was still capable of concern for others and knew she wasn't in a position to give him a good life (reasonable as this assessment was, lack of self-esteem may also have been a factor). So that becomes another trauma. While before this flashback, we didn't know that Emma had returned to crime after leaving jail -- actually, the episode contradicts S1 canon, which established that Emma shouldn't have an adult record -- it isn't that surprising that she would have, if only out of desperation. 

As for the hope - we do know that Emma, even after Neal had ditched and sold her out, went to Tallahassee and stayed for two years, presumably with some bizarre hope that he would come for her. Given that, I can also buy that she, if only out of psychological self-preservation, threw herself into the idea of finding her parents, especially now that she had given up a child of her own.  

And I don't think the fact that Cleo served as a model for her negates that Emma had to make the choice to start turning her life around, which she had done to some extent even before Henry found her. 

Given the show's track record, I'm just glad Cleo didn't turn out to be literally Cleopatra, or something. Although if JMo had signed on for a couple more seasons, who knows.

[Camera One]

I like that justification for how Emma was acting in that episode, but the writers needed to work that in, so it would make sense without the viewers filling in the blanks.  

32 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Given the show's track record, I'm just glad Cleo didn't turn out to be literally Cleopatra, or something. Although if JMo had signed on for a couple more seasons, who knows.

LOL, that gave me quite the image.  It could have been a half-season of Egyptian mythology.  Ra the Sun God was the one who turned Emma's bug yellow.  King Tut was was banished to the World Without Magic, and he was Emma's BFF for awhile.  The Blue Fairy sometimes turns into The Sphinx.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

36 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

While before this flashback, we didn't know that Emma had returned to crime after leaving jail -- actually, the episode contradicts S1 canon, which established that Emma shouldn't have an adult record -- it isn't that surprising that she would have, if only out of desperation. 

This is more than a continuity error, though. It pretty much ruins the backstory of the character. If Emma has an adult record, then she wouldn't have been licensed to carry a gun and might not have been allowed to be a bail bondsperson. Even if she was found not guilty of whatever crime, she'd jumped bail, which is also a crime, which would have still precluded her eventual career. If she was still a fugitive, she'd have been caught when she started working with the court system. I won't worry about the job as Storybrooke sheriff, since it's Storybrooke and not really in the "real" world, except Emma would have known she wasn't eligible to serve as a peace officer in season one before she knew it wasn't subject to real-world law, and Regina sure as hell would have brought that up in season one instead of digging to get Emma's juvenile record.

And with this event happening just two years before the start of the series, the way the court system works, Emma wouldn't have had time to go back to face those charges and have everything worked out in time for her to be back in Boston and an apparently successful bail bondsperson when Henry came looking for her.

Plus, they always made it seem like Emma had never really been much of a criminal, beyond petty shoplifting to stay alive. They made a point of it being Neal's crime that got her sent to jail. If she was still just doing petty shoplifting to stay alive, I doubt they'd have sent a bounty hunter after her because it would have to be a bond that was worth tracking her down for, and how would she have had the up-front money for that bond, to begin with?

So, they destroyed a lot of the basis of the character in order to have a pointless episode that overly simplified a transition in Emma's life that only loosely mapped to the present-day stuff in the episode. And, as usual, there was an easy enough out for a way to achieve their desired effect without ruining everything: For one thing, make her younger -- early 20s instead of just a couple of years before the series. For another, the bounty hunter could have been tracking Neal and was following Emma with the thought that she'd lead her to Neal. Cleo wouldn't have been able to hold her prisoner, but there could have been a lot of emotion in learning that Emma was looking for information about herself rather than trying to meet up with Neal, and Emma might have been afraid she was being hunted, only to find out it was just Neal screwing with her life, yet again (though by that time they were in Saint Neal mode, so they'd never have gone there).

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Plus, they always made it seem like Emma had never really been much of a criminal, beyond petty shoplifting to stay alive. They made a point of it being Neal's crime that got her sent to jail. If she was still just doing petty shoplifting to stay alive, I doubt they'd have sent a bounty hunter after her because it would have to be a bond that was worth tracking her down for, and how would she have had the up-front money for that bond, to begin with?

Maybe Emma didn't commit any crimes as an adult, and August was the one who hired Cleo because he found out Emma was looking for Nealfire.

[Shanna Marie]

33 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Maybe Emma didn't commit any crimes as an adult, and August was the one who hired Cleo because he found out Emma was looking for Nealfire.

But didn't Cleo say something about having a warrant for Emma (from Phoenix, I think?), and Emma didn't seem surprised. If it was a setup by August, wouldn't she have been surprised that someone was after her when she hadn't committed a new crime?

Really, there's a lot that's fishy about Emma's backstory -- all they had on her was possession of stolen property, with her wearing that one watch Neal put on her, and she was a minor. She wouldn't have been put in a cell kind of prison, especially not once they found she was pregnant, and I don't think she'd have been in prison in Arizona. The jurisdiction would have been based on where she was in possession of stolen property, not where the watches were stolen, since they knew she hadn't stolen the watches. She'd have been in some kind of juvenile home. It's been a huge scandal that there were places where adult felons were made to be shackled while giving birth, so I doubt they'd have done that to a teenager with a non-violent offense.

It's weird how they went out of their way to give Emma the worst background possible, to unrealistic degrees, with a healthy, blond infant girl not being adopted and never getting a happy foster family that didn't end in disaster, and then getting sent to an actual prison for a year for wearing a stolen watch, and being made to give birth in shackles. And then they added that she was apparently still in trouble later, and everyone who tried to help her either ended up betraying her or getting killed.

11 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Her goodness was apparently only because Snowing did a Foetal-Darkectomy on her.

And that's so frustrating because it's like she doesn't get credited for coming out of all that without being evil -- given the whole "evil isn't born, it's made" mantra. And they never seem to make the connection that Emma had it far worse than Regina and came out better, so Regina's whine about losing one person and having a pushy mother is rather weak compared to the unrealistically extreme horror of Emma's background. Then, other than the WALLS, they dropped the impact of Emma's upbringing on her, forgetting about her determination to decide for herself what she wanted to be and fighting the notion of destiny. Season 6 Emma was basically a pod person.

10 hours ago, profdanglais said:

It's like they forgot who Emma and Hook were and just wrote a generic engagement/wedding that could have been for anyone. And then juxtaposing the wedding with the whole Black Fairy nonsense was also frustrating. 

Oh, that all just makes me so mad. With them, I could have pictured something like in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, with them getting engaged by agreeing to get married while fighting back-to-back. If they were getting married under the shadow of the upcoming Black Fairy curse, it should have been a quick, no-frills, very personal ceremony because they wanted to be married, no matter what the curse would do to them. I can't imagine them going through with a big wedding in those circumstances, especially when they'd previously agreed to hold the wedding until the Black Fairy thing was over. I can see Emma going along with Snow's plans for a big wedding since Snow missed out on so much of her life, but I can't see that being the wedding Snow would have planned. While the musical was fun, putting a musical number (that didn't make sense, given the plot) in the wedding meant that they filled the wedding with singing, dancing extras instead of having more people who were meaningful to them. Nemo and Liam, at the very least, should have been there (which would have let us know they survived. And Ariel would have had no trouble getting there. That whole wedding was strictly the bride's side of the church, and the wedding had nothing to do with the personalities of the people getting married.

[tennisgurl]

The whole wedding seemed extremely half assed. It could have been any random, Basic wedding, nothing that says "bounty hunter daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming and Captain Hook". That sounds awesome, not boring and generic. 

I just found this really interesting video series about "hard vs soft" magic systems, and it really reminded me of a lot of the problems that I've had with how this show has dealt with magic over the years. It goes really in depth into the differences between the two, and the fact that a fictional universe can use both at different times, but I think it comes down to two different systems. Hard Magic is when the rules of magic are clearly spelled out, and are very consistent. You do a thing, and another thing, and that leads to magic. It usually has limits and we know clearly how the characters can and cannot use their magic. Every magical species or group have their own powers, strengths, and weaknesses. He uses Avatar the Last Airbender as an example. Soft Magic is when magic is something that more or less just happens. People can use it, but they dont usually explain how exactly they can use it, or how it really works. There are rarely limits to this magic, but its also more unpredictable, and can lead to bad things happening because the magic doesn't really have rules, and can backfire. He uses Lord of the Rings as an example. In both styles, he says that limitations of magic create tension, and more creative storytelling. He notes that both hard and soft magic users often have weaknesses, such as using too much power being physically or mentally draining to the point of sickness or death, and that keeps them from solving everything with the wave of a jazz hand. 

Then there is the mix type, where the series uses both hard and soft style magic. Where there are rules and limits to how much magic can be used, but sometimes magic is unpredictable, and the world is full of magic things that dont really have rules and laws behind them, they just...are. He cites Harry Potter as an example, as Harry and company have spells that can do pretty much anything without consequences, but magic can also be unpredictable, and magic is a skill that you have to practice and become good at. he also mentions that some works have several different magic systems all operating in one world, with differing degrees of hard or soft, and that those words are often a lot of fun. He gives Game of Thrones as an example. 

Once is, clearly, the softest of soft magic. Inthe worst way possible. Magic has no limits until the plot needs it to, everyone seems to work on the same magic scale, no matter where they come from, and nothing is ever really explained, beyond some random spells books that pop up from time to time, and concentrating really hard on making jazz hands. They never even explain why some people can use magic and others cant, or what the actual powers or limits of anyone actually is. Beyond just saying "its too much for me" or something. To me, its one of the shows greatest failures. They seemed to think that creating a consistent magical system was boring and tied the story down, but really, its the exact opposite. It should add tension or drama, or excitement and mystery, not just be a crutch to rush from one plot point to the next. If they had some consistency, they would have had a better story.

[Camera One]

That was an interesting video.  It seemed like the "Once" writers fell into all the mistakes they mentioned.  We as viewers were always seeing the man behind the curtain (and I'm not talking about Walsh) when it came to magic and magical solutions.  The unpredictability of magic became predictable and was used as an excuse to cause problems for the heroes or to solve their problems when they finally needed a solution.

[KingOfHearts]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

The pathetic thing with that episode is they had to artificially make Emma naive and hopeful again at the beginning of the episode, just to tear her back down.  I don't see how these Writers can see themselves as character writers.  They completely ignored Emma's history.  She had been in jail, she had to give up her son so he could have his best chance, she was betrayed by her first love, and she was unchanged by all that?  If you watched all her flashbacks back-to-back, most people would have whip-lash from her outlook on life.  Maybe Emma (and Snow, for that matter) was an Energizer bunny and needed a boost to get some temporary hope and amnesia about all the crap they previously went through.

What bothers me about it is that Emma wasn't ever like that to begin with. She seemed hopeful in her relationship with Neal, but that was meant to be the one exception. She was in love and had all the warm, fuzzy feelings that came with that. Emma was not the kind of person who was optimistic only to get her hopes dashed. She would expect disappointment and her cynicism would always be validated. She was a skeptic and that played into her character arc in S1. Even as a kid and a teenager she was like that.

[Camera One]

I was looking at "Once" on IMDB, and the list of writing credits surprised me.  

Quote

 

Adam Horowitz...(created by) (156 episodes, 2011-2018)

Edward Kitsis...(created by) (156 episodes, 2011-2018)

Brigitte Hales...(54 episodes, 2016-2018)

Leah Fong...(44 episodes, 2016-2018)

David H. Goodman...(32 episodes, 2011-2018)

Jane Espenson...(30 episodes, 2011-2018)

Andrew Chambliss...(30 episodes, 2011-2017)

Dana Horgan...(27 episodes, 2014-2018)

Bill Wolkoff...(23 episodes, 2015-2016)

Adam J. Karp...(22 episodes, 2017-2018)

Jerome Schwartz...(20 episodes, 2014-2018)

Tze Chun...(18 episodes, 2014-2016)

Kalinda Vazquez...(11 episodes, 2012-2015)

Ian Goldberg...(9 episodes, 2011-2013)

Robert Hull...(7 episodes, 2012-2014)

Daniel T. Thomsen...(6 episodes, 2012-2014)

Christine Boylan...(5 episodes, 2012-2013)

Scott Nimerfro...(3 episodes, 2014-2015)

Christopher Hollier...(3 episodes, 2017-2018)

Liz Tigelaar...(2 episodes, 2011-2012)

Brian Ridings...(2 episodes, 2016-2018)

Paul Karp...(2 episodes, 2017-2018)

Vladimir Cvetko...(1 episode, 2012)

Nelson Soler...(1 episode, 2016)

Miguel Ian Raya...(1 episode, 2018)

 

I thought Brigitte Hales and Leah Fong were relatively new, and they wrote a lot of episodes overall.  They're the only two so far which are known to be working on "Amazing Stories".

[KingOfHearts]

43 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was looking at "Once" on IMDB, and the list of writing credits surprised me.  

I thought Brigitte Hales and Leah Fong were relatively new, and they wrote a lot of episodes overall.  They're the only two so far which are known to be working on "Amazing Stories".

Those numbers are incorrect. Brigitte Hales only co-wrote eight episodes. Leah Fong did six.

Edited August 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

No wonder it seemed off.

[Mitch]

Did we ever get a name (on screen) for the "realm" that the fairytale action too place this year? Was it actually called the Enchanted Forest?  Was that a different Oz they showed, but Zelena was there so is it a different one? How did Facilier meet the EQ..and did this realm have a Snow White and EQ?

[KingOfHearts]

48 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Did we ever get a name (on screen) for the "realm" that the fairytale action too place this year? Was it actually called the Enchanted Forest?  Was that a different Oz they showed, but Zelena was there so is it a different one? How did Facilier meet the EQ..and did this realm have a Snow White and EQ?

It never got a name but we've adopted "Disenchanted Forest" as the moniker for the alternate Enchanted Forest. The Oz was the original Oz for some reason. Facilier I'm guessing met our Regina at some point while she was the Evil Queen. 

[CCTC]

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Facilier I'm guessing met our Regina at some point while she was the Evil Queen. 

During one of their first conversations, I thought Regina/Roni said something that implied it she had been the Evil Queen at the time of their relationship.  I think it might have been the oft-used "I was a different person then".  I remember being confused at the time of where that would have fit in the pre-curse EF timeline, what the Facilier from this world was doing in the original recipe EF and was a bit curious of what they would reveal. 

Turns out, they never really explored their relationship at all - in the past or the present.  It was all just a plot point without any explanation or any depth.  We learned nothing of them or why they were or had been a couple.

Edited August 8, 2018 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

During one of their first conversations, I thought Regina/Roni said something that implied it she had been the Evil Queen at the time of their relationship.  I think it might have been the oft-used "I was a different person then".  I remember being confused at the time of where that would have fit in the pre-curse EF timeline, what the Facilier from this world was doing in the original recipe EF and was a bit curious of what they would reveal. 

Facilier said something about how Rumple had always come between the two of them, but that too went nowhere. Maybe they'd have explored that relationship if the show had been renewed. 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Mitch said:

Did we ever get a name (on screen) for the "realm" that the fairytale action too place this year?

I think there was a mention of the place's name in the episode in which Henry proposed to Ella. They were walking in the woods, and they said something about the name of the place, but I don't remember what it was because, clearly, Disenchanted Forest is the real name.

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, CCTC said:

I remember being confused at the time of where that would have fit in the pre-curse EF timeline, what the Facilier from this world was doing in the original recipe EF and was a bit curious of what they would reveal. 

It became ridiculously easy to travel from the Disenchanted Forest to the original recipe EF.  Did original recipe EF knew there was another EF out there with alternative Cinderellas and Rapunzels and Alice in Wonderlands, etc.?  

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Facilier said something about how Rumple had always come between the two of them, but that too went nowhere. Maybe they'd have explored that relationship if the show had been renewed. 

I just wept at the thought that we'd never get to see that untold story.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think the writers ever stopped to check on how their characters were feeling at any given moment. They didn't pause their plotting antics to ask questions like, "How is having a second child affecting Snow?" or "What does Regina think of running Roni's bar?" etc. They didn't seem to care much about their characters or the world they created. But you can't really say it's plot-driven, because the plots were fully developed. The characters talked a lot about them, but not much actually happened. It's a lose-lose situation all around. If A&E thought their ideas were super cool, you'd think they marvel at them or play around with them for a bit. Storybrooke was really cool, but it became nothing more than a set. The Land of Untold Stories was a neat concept, but we only saw the actual location once. Supposedly Hyde had a tyrannical regime gong there, but we'll never learn how he rose to power or why he wanted to run things there. And if the writers loved putting a sword in Snow White's hand so much, why did they make her a pansy thinking all killing is bad? It doesn't make sense.

[Camera One]

I agree that they were incredibly weak with both characterization and plot (as well as worldbuilding... those would be their three biggest weaknesses, which pretty much covers everything, LOL).  If they asked the questions you posed, the stories would actually be built on some character foundations.  I think plot-driven could describe a story where the plot is poorly developed, but where the characters act in certain ways and say certain things, only because the plot needs them to, which is A&E's M.O.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't think the writers ever stopped to check on how their characters were feeling at any given moment. They didn't pause their plotting antics to ask questions like, "How is having a second child affecting Snow?" or "What does Regina think of running Roni's bar?" etc. They didn't seem to care much about their characters or the world they created. But you can't really say it's plot-driven, because the plots were fully developed. The characters talked a lot about them, but not much actually happened. It's a lose-lose situation all around. If A&E thought their ideas were super cool, you'd think they marvel at them or play around with them for a bit.

This show pretty much looks like what would happen if you stopped development at the initial brainstorming session -- that phase where you sit around a table and throw out ideas that all get written on the whiteboard. You can build on an idea that someone else has thrown out there, but you can't ask questions or be at all critical. All ideas are equally valid because you don't want to put a damper on pure creativity. In most cases, there would be follow-up sessions in which you'd look for common threads in those ideas, group them, and start asking critical questions as you dig deeper into them and develop them. You might take one idea and do a whole session digging deeper into it, looking at all the possibilities and ramifications, and then you might assign individual ideas to various team members for them to develop further, research, see how it fits into what you already have, and bring back a proposal to the group.

But with this show, it's like they did that first brainstorming with everyone just tossing ideas out there, and then they decided that was their season. Just -- what about Maleficent? Oh, or Ursula. Hey, we have Pongo, so why not do Cruella? Oh, and there's the Author. And Rumple's up to something. What if Maleficent and the Charmings have a past? Oooh, could Emma maybe have the potential for darkness? Like, she's maybe potentially more dark than Regina. What a twist! And then it turns out she isn't dark, but then gets turned into the Dark One! And that's the extent of the development and they go write the arc. But if they'd done any development, they could have got a whole arc out of just Maleficent, or they could have done a lot more with Cruella. Or they could have put some actual thought into the Author so that wasn't such a mess.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But with this show, it's like they did that first brainstorming with everyone just tossing ideas out there, and then they decided that was their season. Just -- what about Maleficent? Oh, or Ursula. Hey, we have Pongo, so why not do Cruella? Oh, and there's the Author. And Rumple's up to something. What if Maleficent and the Charmings have a past? Oooh, could Emma maybe have the potential for darkness? Like, she's maybe potentially more dark than Regina. What a twist! And then it turns out she isn't dark, but then gets turned into the Dark One! And that's the extent of the development and they go write the arc. 

Don't forget, "And basically, by the end of the season/half-season, we want everyone except Henry to be trapped inside the Author's book!  Just run with it, everybody.  Writers for Emma centric, remember WALLS.  Writers for Hook centric, remember GUILT, writers for Rumbelle centric, remember she sees a GOOD MAN deep inside of him.  Writers for Regina centric, that would be everyone!  Let's get to it!  But before we do it, let's TRASH LAST SEASON'S TIMELINE WALL!!!!!"

Edited August 9, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Something that I find sad is that Emma and Regina more or less became pawns in their own stories, lacking any real agency, constantly being manipulated by other people, or the whims of fate. With Regina, it was used to make excuses for her evil behavior and to make her seem blameless for all the evils she committed. In doing that, they removed all her agency, and she went from a badass villain who ruled a whole kingdom to a weak willed idiot who is constantly manipulated and runs on pure emotion. "It was Cora! It was Rumple! It was Snow! It was Frankenstein and Jefferson! It was The Author!" and in the end, she hardly ended up mattering herself. 

With Emma, it was more of them being bored of Emma as a character, but feeling obligated to give her more flashbacks, or using her as a springboard for other characters backstories. So they explained every little thing about her, and had to keep giving her "walls", and it lead to her being, like Regina, constantly manipulated and screwed over by the billions of fairy tale people that were lurking around her life, unbeknownst to her. And, even worse, her whole Savior destiny ended up being less of her being a hero, and more of her being a broken, hallow shell of a victim who has no control over her own life and destiny, and whos arc ended with her passively letting someone kill her, while Rumple did all the actual work. 

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Writers for Emma centric, remember WALLS.  Writers for Hook centric, remember GUILT, writers for Rumbelle centric, remember she sees a GOOD MAN deep inside of him. 

I suspect that the brainstorming for the centric episodes stopped at the first idea they came up with:

A (or E): Okay, so for the Emma episode, what do we want to do?
E (or A): Walls! She has trouble connecting with others.
Other writer: (starts to open mouth to suggest another idea)
A (or E): Walls it is. What about the Hook episode?
E (or A): What about his guilt? He could feel bad about something he's done in the past, and the flashback could be about that thing.
Another writer: (starts to speak)
A (or E): Guilt is good. Let's go with that.
Other writer (Goodman, probably): I think we've already done that storyline. I know I've written it at least once.
A (or E): We're brainstorming here. You're not supposed to be critical.

[KingOfHearts]

33 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

A (or E): We're brainstorming here. You're not supposed to be critical.

Other writer: "We start shooting it in three days!"

[Camera One]

Or...

A (or E): Okay, so for the Emma episode, what do we want to do?
E (or A): Walls! She has trouble connecting with others.
Other writer: Wouldn't it be cool if we saw the MOMENT that Emma got her iconic red leather jacket?
Other writer: Wouldn't it be cool if taking on that red leather jacket was like getting Superman's cape or the Batsuit, and the bailbondswoman PERSONAE passed onto Emma?
Other writer: Wouldn't it be cool to show a scene where that mentor woman locked the tires on Emma's iconic yellow bug?
A (or E): Homage to the pilot!  I love it!

---

A (or E): Walls it is. What about the Hook episode?
E (or A): What about his guilt? He could feel bad about something he's done in the past, and the flashback could be about that thing.
Another writer: Wouldn't it be cool if Hook met Captain Nemo?
Another writer: Wouldn't it be cool if Hook's half-brother was working for Nemo and found out Hook murdered his father?
A (or E): I love how we can incorporate classic literature into this cultured show.

[Rumsy4]

@Camera One Are you are an unregistered animagus, and have you been that fly on the wall of the OUAT writers’ room? Come, tell us the truth. The show’s over and there’s no need for secrecy. ;-)

[Mitch]

23 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

This show pretty much looks like what would happen if you stopped development at the initial brainstorming session -- that phase where you sit around a table and throw out ideas that all get written on the whiteboard. You can build on an idea that someone else has thrown out there, but you can't ask questions or be at all critical. All ideas are equally valid because you don't want to put a damper on pure creativity. In most cases, there would be follow-up sessions in which you'd look for common threads in those ideas, group them, and start asking critical questions as you dig deeper into them and develop them. You might take one idea and do a whole session digging deeper into it, looking at all the possibilities and ramifications, and then you might assign individual ideas to various team members for them to develop further, research, see how it fits into what you already have, and bring back a proposal to the group.

But with this show, it's like they did that first brainstorming with everyone just tossing ideas out there, and then they decided that was their season. Just -- what about Maleficent? Oh, or Ursula. Hey, we have Pongo, so why not do Cruella? Oh, and there's the Author. And Rumple's up to something. What if Maleficent and the Charmings have a past? Oooh, could Emma maybe have the potential for darkness? Like, she's maybe potentially more dark than Regina. What a twist! And then it turns out she isn't dark, but then gets turned into the Dark One! And that's the extent of the development and they go write the arc. But if they'd done any development, they could have got a whole arc out of just Maleficent, or they could have done a lot more with Cruella. Or they could have put some actual thought into the Author so that wasn't such a mess.

I was just reading a story in Vanity Fair about writers rooms and "Mini Rooms" where places like AMC and Amazon want to look at what the writers write for the first five episodes before okaying  a series and pilot. VF is bemoaning that its "mis-treatment " of writers but one writer/producer said this ...

"It’s not that a pilot doesn’t have value, but I think there’s also things the room can tell you that a pilot can’t. There are way too many examples of very well-crafted pilots that, once you’ve actually gone to series, [the show] crumbles on you because the pilot was so clever or flashy in the way it was executed that it didn’t real­ly demonstrate what the series would be on an ongoing basis. When you’re forced to actually plot out and craft and write four or five additional episodes, and figure out what the whole season would be, then the show-runner really knows what the show is.”

I was thinking this had Once "written" all over it...the pilot was GREAT...and while S1 was the best of the series you can still see weaknesses there. I am not sure if five episodes would have helped, but I think the general idea of each season not being well thought or planned out comes to mind here.

[Camera One]

I was thinking it might have been fun if "Once" did an arc with "regular" people who travelled to "fairylands".  So maybe Dorothy meets Alice in Wonderland, the Darlings, Christopher Robin, etc., and they share their stories with each other, but no one believes them.  And they might end up helping our heroes in Storybrooke to maintain their secret if the town loses its protection spell.  

[KingOfHearts]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking it might have been fun if "Once" did an arc with "regular" people who travelled to "fairylands".  So maybe Dorothy meets Alice in Wonderland, the Darlings, Christopher Robin, etc., and they share their stories with each other, but no one believes them.  And they might end up helping our heroes in Storybrooke to maintain their secret if the town loses its protection spell.  

Or they're all part of the Home Office.

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking it might have been fun if "Once" did an arc with "regular" people who travelled to "fairylands". 

Or one of those people might have come to Storybrooke, seeking proof (like Alice going back to Wonderland in the spinoff). Or, because of the curse, the person who thought they were going to fairyland ended up in Storybrooke instead. I knew I was doing the spell right, and I was supposed to end up in a fairytale land, but somehow, I ended up in a small town in Maine instead. Though, there's something odd about this town. They deny it, but I noticed that they keep trying to encourage me to go somewhere else.

[Mitch]

The whole thing about Storybrooke in the first season that made it fun was that it was mysterious...how did it work, who is there. The funny thing is, after magic came back Storybrooke lost its mystery and was just another a boring town with a few magic users and where magic was treated as if in a cartoon.  The interplay of magic in the real world ..where no magic should exist ( I refuse to think S7 is canon ) should have made SB a crossroads to all the realms where characters appear out of nowhere and a place with a lot of mysterious nooks and crannies...(I always thought the tunnels under town were interesting..were they an in between place where some magic was in place so Malificent could keep her dragon form...why was Snow's coffin down there....the Sorcerers mansion is another place that would have been fun to explore...(that is where I would have had the hallway with the doors that go to different realms...he was the crossing guard so to speak of the realms but Jefferson's hat bypassed that..instead of having to twist into knots to explain realm hopping when it turned out to be easy as can be.

I would have made SB less Disney generic..peppy Main Street and more Twin Peaks..or at least the Haunted Mansion.

[Camera One]

I totally forgot that in Season 7 we got the mythology of how The Land Without Magic came to be.  It was because of the mean genocidal Victorian girls who lived in Seattle thousands of years ago.  How epic.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

31 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I wish we had gotten more of Gepetto and Pinocchio this season, as I think if we had gotten to know them more, we could understand his choice in this episode more.

I really got to hate August by the end of the series.  I guess I shouldn't blame the actor too much since I didn't dislike him in Season 1 (though his coyness was annoying).  It would have been better if they had used August's return in subsequent seasons for screentime with Gepetto instead.  There was so much for them to work through.  I think the actor who played Gepetto could also have played some remorse for what he did.  Snow growing to forgive Gepetto would have been more enjoyable than the grovelling she had to do for Regina since she was actually friends with Gepetto before.  Even some flashbacks of August growing up would have been preferable to the nonsensical "He's my good friend" and the wise-sage BS whenever he showed up Season 4 onwards.  

Edited August 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

59 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Snow knew that it was her fault Regina had been forced to marry her father, who, despite appearances, had been a tyrannical husband. And she had been a brat to Regina. So, she deserved to die, just like her father.

It's almost funny that I wrote this as a joke in the episode thread. Because I just came across a post on tumblr that called Leopold a creep and a controlling husband to both Eva and Regina and pretty much accused him of grooming Snow for himself. :-p

[Shanna Marie]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I really got to hate August by the end of the series.  I guess I shouldn't blame the actor too much since I didn't dislike him in Season 1 (though his coyness was annoying).  It would have been better if they had used August's return in subsequent seasons for screentime with Gepetto instead. 

I like the actor from other things (Band of Brothers, among others), but I disliked August in season one because I know That Guy. I've spent way too much time around the pretentious writer type who thinks he's edgy because he writes on a manual typewriter, and he enjoys being all coy and smug.

I would have liked to have seen more of Pinocchio with Gepetto, but I guess that could have been a challenge with a small child actor when time in the real world was moving so much faster than on the show. Henry was a bit older, so it wasn't quite so obvious (though it got pretty bad), but we'd have had a 9-year-old played by a 14-year-old by the time the series was over, unless they did what they did for the musical flashback and use the original actor's younger brother.

I never bought August as any kind of trusted friend for Emma because they'd barely interacted. They had coffee together a couple of times, there was the "date" to the well, and then the time he took her to the place where they arrived in this world, and their (botched) breaking and entering of Regina's shed. It seems more like he'd have been "oh yeah, that guy" rather than a friend and advisor.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I like the actor from other things (Band of Brothers, among others), but I disliked August in season one because I know That Guy. I've spent way too much time around the pretentious writer type who thinks he's edgy because he writes on a manual typewriter, and he enjoys being all coy and smug.

He was definitely pretentious as hell.  I didn't dislike him but I didn't like him either.  The only aspect of the character which worked was his relationship with Gepetto, so that scene in Gepetto's garage was actually moving.  Which I why I wouldn't have minded more with Adult August bonding with Gepetto (if this show was actually interested in developing the supporting cast, which it clearly wasn't).  I didn't particularly enjoy his interactions with Emma, though his desperation at the tree was well done.  They definitely had zero chemistry as love interests, if that was where A&E were considering going with it.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

I really came to hate August later on, but here, he is...alright. I dont really care about his relationship with Emma, but I did like him bonding with Gepetto as an adult. Its an interesting dynamic, with him knowing that Marco is his father, and Marco just thinking he is some guy helping him out around the shop, and later on, is his now adult son. It could have been an interesting contrast to Emma connecting with Snow and Charming after the curse is lifted. But, well, the writers give no fucks about the supporting cast (or even most of the main cast eventually) so that was not meant to be. 

The interactions between both David and Regina in Storeybrooke and Charming and Regina in the Enchanted Forrest are super creepy. I originally thought that Regina was a bit hot for David, but now I think its just her tendencies towards being creepy and predatory towards men she holds power over. Graham is the most extreme case, but its all over her interactions with pretty much any man she slithers around who she can get away with feeling up or abusing. And even, seasons later, the Evil Queen (who still deserves a happy ending because...) who was separated from Regina STILL acts like this with Aladdin. I mean, these writers cant keep major elements of their mythology remotely consistent, but they CAN remember that their favorite character is a creepy rapist? Thats the one thing they choose to remember?!?! While not seeing it as any kind of problem?!?!

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I really got to hate August by the end of the series.  I guess I shouldn't blame the actor too much since I didn't dislike him in Season 1 (though his coyness was annoying).  It would have been better if they had used August's return in subsequent seasons for screentime with Gepetto instead.  There was so much for them to work through.  I think the actor who played Gepetto could also have played some remorse for what he did.  Snow growing to forgive Gepetto would have been more enjoyable than the grovelling she had to do for Regina since she was actually friends with Gepetto before.  Even some flashbacks of August growing up would have been preferable to the nonsensical "He's my good friend" and the wise-sage BS whenever he showed up Season 4 onwards.  

So did I. In the first season I found him interesting before we learned his back story, he was a little annoying with being coy and not answering Emma's questions. I do wish we had gotten more with him and Gepetto. It could have been good in contrast to the Charmings and Emma as both sent their kids away and are now learning to build relationships with them as adults. Listen to August telling Gepetto how hard it was to grow up in Land without Magic. Plus it would be nice to have to develop more of the secondary characters. I usually end up mostly being disappointed that August didn't end up being Bae. He really seems like what Bae would have grown up to be.    

[Camera One]

I wanted more episodes with Young Bae after he fell through the portal, but I guess after Neal died, he wasn't really that relevant.  And then that wish came back all twisted with that horrible character-destroying Beowulf episode in Season 6.  

Edited August 11, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I wanted more episodes with Young Bae after he fell through the portal, but I guess after Neal died, he wasn't really that relevant.  And then that wish came back all twisted with that horrible character-destroying Beowulf episode in Season 6.  

 

Oncers: "Hey um - we don't see enough Storybrooke. Can we have some of those small-town stories from S1 in a 22-episode format?"
A&E: "Sure, we'll see Emma's bug in one episode and then the Evil Queen with Zelena at the spa in another talking about their crush on Rumple. Oh, and Snow will say she wants to teach again!"
Oncers: "Oh... okay I guess. What about Aladdin and Jasmine? They've been on the wish list for quite some time. All the media websites are constantly asking about them."
A&E: "Absolutely. We've always wanted to do those two since day one. We just needed the perfect opportunity where they fit snug into the mythology. Aladdin's going to be a jaded guy who doesn't want to help anyone and Jasmine will have insecurity issues!"
Oncers: "That's not... nevermind. Please tell us you're doing the Captain Swan wedding soon!"
A&E: "We'd hate if we didn't see that this season. It's going to take place on a roof right before everything plunges into another Curse! They don't even get to have their honeymoon! And right before that, they're going to break up over something stupid to really drive up the angst!"
Oncers: "Well that's depressing. What about that musical episode we always wanted?"
A&E: "Oh that. We're using lyrics we ripped off of a TV Guide article describing the different characters in three-to-four sentences. Regina gets two songs."
Oncers: "Are you guys ever going to show the Black Fairy and explain why she was banished?"
A&E: "We've decided to make it about Rumple instead. But yes, she's there and she's not Mary Poppins!"
Oncers: "Charming's dad?"
A&E: "Murdered by Hook."
Oncers: "Baelfire?"
A&E: "Tried to murder Beowulf."
Oncers: "Okay, okay. It looks like you've got some interesting... plans. But for the love of everything, please don't botch up an AU where the curse never happened. We've wanted to see that for such a long time."
A&E: *maniacal grinning*

Edited August 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Now that we've finished S1 in the rewatch, I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are for the first season as a whole. There are a few reasons why it isn't my favorite season. In spite of all the character development, it drags, particularly from 1x08 to 1x16. I like the centrics and one-offs we get for some of the secondary characters, but the Mary Margaret/David/Kathryn plot is painful to get through in some places. It was just really predictable and nobody really wanted to see Regina tilting the board in her favor or Snow White and Prince Charming in an adultery plot. I don't think it helps the show in the long run as much as some people might say it did. There's some good moments in the flashbacks, but there's plenty of cheap angst there too. (We could've lived without the memory potion.) Emma's relationship with Henry and her journey to belief gets derailed pretty far until all of a sudden Regina makes an apple turnover and it's like, "oh yeah! We have a curse to break!"

In retrospect, a lot of the show's issues were already planted in S1, but didn't come into fruition until the next season. We've got plot holes in the real world, some odd worldbuilding choices, Regina's terrible character foundation, and Emma holding the idiot ball just to drag the plot out.

Edited August 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[profdanglais]

I think in retrospect it's obvious that the original plan was to break the curse in the middle of the first season. That would explain the drag in the middle and Emma's personality transplant during those episodes, where she basically believes everything everyone tells her, even when they're obviously lying. It's a real shame because Emma at her best is so awesome and it would've been great to see her slowly starting to believe, instead of all at once. 

I still love the atmosphere in the early episodes, the complexity of Gold as a villain, all the characters that got sidelined in later seasons but who really enrich the show as a whole. I love Charming and Snow before they became entirely David and Mary Margaret, I love cute, earnest Henry. 

I think what I wish the most is that the subtlety and character development that they did manage to achieve in this season had carried on into later seasons. I wish they hadn't whisked Snow and Emma away to the EF almost immediately after the curse broke (despite that being the beginning of Captain Swan) and I wish that Regina had had a better redemption arc. 

[andromeda331]

41 minutes ago, profdanglais said:

I think in retrospect it's obvious that the original plan was to break the curse in the middle of the first season. That would explain the drag in the middle and Emma's personality transplant during those episodes, where she basically believes everything everyone tells her, even when they're obviously lying. It's a real shame because Emma at her best is so awesome and it would've been great to see her slowly starting to believe, instead of all at once. 

I still love the atmosphere in the early episodes, the complexity of Gold as a villain, all the characters that got sidelined in later seasons but who really enrich the show as a whole. I love Charming and Snow before they became entirely David and Mary Margaret, I love cute, earnest Henry. 

I think what I wish the most is that the subtlety and character development that they did manage to achieve in this season had carried on into later seasons. I wish they hadn't whisked Snow and Emma away to the EF almost immediately after the curse broke (despite that being the beginning of Captain Swan) and I wish that Regina had had a better redemption arc. 

There was so much they could have done with Emma rather then have her basically believe everything anyone told her in the middle. She should have been secretly working on cases from Graham's death, to Kathryn appearing and the huge set of keys. She didn't have to believe in the Curse to still realize things weren't adding up. There's no reason for her to have believed Sidney even if he had been the world's greatest actor which he clearly wasn't. This ends up being a problem throughout the whole series they never really let characters be proactive whether its dealing with Regina, or Zelena or anyone. There are ways to stretch things out without having characters stand around during the middle of an arc or do a bunch of stuff that isn't going to matter when dealing with the Current Big Bad. It was fun watching Emma dealing with Gold and Regina in the beginning of season one because she didn't back down but also she had a whole lifetime of street smarts and growing up in the system. It was fun watching Emma point out to Gold why his contract wouldn't hold up in court and why he wouldn't want to risk going to court. She was right and knew it from her experience in the foster care system. They should have had her secretly investigating stuff instead of in the middle part seeing all the weirdness and not questioning it.

I do think season one is probably the best at the time we didn't have anything to compare it too. Its the closest we get to an entire season that ended with something happening. The Curse being broken. We got to see Emma and Henry developing their relationship, Henry's probably at his cutest this season and really trying to get someone to believe, While also showing moments that just make you want to hug him. Him telling Emma his mom doesn't love him she only pretends too, thinking he finally made friends but Ava and Nicholas were just using him and scared after Graham died that something would happen to Emma. We got to see Emma and Mary Margaret developing their relationship. Snow and Charming. Snow and Red becoming friends.  Rumple was at his most interesting in season one. Mysterious but helping Emma, Henry and her parents, potential with him and Belle and he seemed to be regretful about what happened with Bae. It was fun watching the curse slowly weakening as Emma helped Cinderella and Hansel and Gretel.  They should have kept using Emma's street smarts it made things more interesting. The same way they should have kept how hard it was to kill someone in this world and get away with it. Regina was worried when she realized everything could lead back to her. They should have kept that in rest of the series along with using our world technology to thwart villains. There were boring parts and things that didn't make any sense but we still got so much more then we did in the following seasons. We lose Emma and Henry's relationship, Emma and Mary Margaret, Henry and other characters getting the sudden switch to team Regina as the show became all about Regina and Rumple. 

[companionenvy]

My views may well change when I rewatch the rest, but so far, even with its flaws I'd rank S1 either first or tied with S3, which I think was stronger in certain ways, but also had its own low points, especially in 3B. Whereas S1 had a dead period in the middle, but wound up being a satisfying and relatively cohesive season of television. Right now, my tentative ranking (excluding S7) goes:

Season 1

Season 3 (where 3A would probably come in ahead of S1, but 3B would be behind it; not incidentally, also the last season in which Rumple is a great character, and Regina hasn't become a total show-killer)

Season 5 (which had two genuinely compelling arcs that were only undermined, rather than destroyed completely, by Regina/Rumple idiocy)

Season 2 (which didn't remotely live up to the potential of its premise, but wasn't a terrible season of television in its own right)

Season 6 (which was a total mess, but still had some redeeming moments)

Season 4 (in which even my love of the Frozen characters cannot distract me from some of the worst and most insulting writing, plotting and characterization I've ever seen outside of a daytime soap)

[Shanna Marie]

I'm finding that I enjoy season one less each time I watch it. I have very mixed feelings. There are some things they do very well or that are better than anything that came later, and there's a lot of stuff that is annoying or boring. And, unfortunately, what came later sort of retroactively ruins a lot of it.

One thing I do like, for the most part, is the way the flashbacks were used. It was more like there were parallel stories going on, part taking place in the past and part in the present, rather than the thematic way they ended up going later. Aside from a few of the character-centric one offs, we had the complete story of why Rumple wanted the curse cast, the complete story of Regina's relationship with Snow, and the complete story of Snow and Charming's relationship. I like that these were told out of order, so the story built in an interesting way -- like first seeing Charming and Abigail together, then later learning who Charming really was, and still later learning that Abigail wasn't what she seemed.

I like the spooky, fairytale nature of Storybrooke. I love the friendship between Emma and Mary Margaret, which is enhanced by us knowing that they're really daughter and mother. I love the relationship between Emma and Henry and Emma gradually coming to feel like a mom. This is the best these two relationships get. I even like Regina as a villain. She's frustrating and hard to beat because the deck is so stacked in her favor, since Emma doesn't even know what game she's playing. Regina is a pure psychopath incapable of human empathy, and that makes for a scary villain.

But in retrospect, that's a huge problem for this season. It was tough to get through in the first place, but I kept reminding myself that this was a fairy tale, and the Evil Queen would be defeated. It's really hard to watch now, knowing that while her curse gets busted, she never really pays for any of her crimes. All this horrible torture of these people is forgotten, and Regina doesn't really even apologize for it. Henry spends this season sure she's a villain and afraid of her, but then that's all forgotten later.

I think the flaws that later killed the series start to show here, like the characterization based on the needs of the plot. In some episodes, Emma's smart and savvy and can tell when she's being lied to. In other episodes, she believes what she's told and doesn't bother to do any research of her own. Really, she's a terrible cop, and since she barely carries out any sheriff duties in the remainder of the series, you've got to wonder why they bothered making her sheriff. And the worldbuilding is all over the map. When they bother establishing something, it's weird and freaky. Oh, and the consent issues are there from the beginning, too.

The other thing that's hard to watch now is all the wasted potential. This show could have been so clever and amazing. They set up a lot of great material, but they don't even seem to have noticed the gems they created. The relationship between Marco and August had a lot of potential. The friendship between Red and Snow was wonderful, and it was pretty much forgotten in the present. Emma as sheriff could have been interesting, if they'd ever done anything with that. I kind of feel like her relationship with Henry never really goes anywhere after this season. There's all the buildup to her being able to give a true love's kiss to him after she started out not being able to think of herself as a mother, but I feel like the season finale here is the peak. They don't really build from there. She seems totally at ease with him from this point on, and he seems to lose interest in her as his focus turns to Regina.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

There were boring parts and things that didn't make any sense but we still got so much more then we did in the following seasons. We lose Emma and Henry's relationship, Emma and Mary Margaret, Henry and other characters getting the sudden switch to team Regina as the show became all about Regina and Rumple. 

I think this summarizes my feelings.  I thought Season 1 was flawed even when I watched it the first time and I found the Season 1 finale relatively weak and unsatisfying, which ultimately never changed thereafter.  As everyone has said, the base flaws that would plague the writing for the later seasons were already evident in the first season, such as horrible pacing and characters left to hold the idiot ball for plot reasons.

But in comparison to the other seasons, this was as good as it was ever going to get.  Unfortunately, I don't think any of the subsequent seasons came even close.  By Season 3, some of the major protagonists (eg. Henry and Snow) were either destroyed or hollow remnants of their former selves and could hardly be considered fully formed characters.  In Season 1, all the characters were still viable, with some depth, believable emotion and character beats.  Despite going around in circles in the middle, there was a relatively coherent story which explained the basic premise presented in the pilot.  

If "Once" had been cancelled after one season, we would have been sad at the lost potential.  We wouldn't have realized the show would never even come close to reaching half its potential.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But in comparison to the other seasons, this was as good as it was ever going to get.  Unfortunately, I don't think any of the subsequent seasons came even close.  By Season 3, some of the major protagonists (eg. Henry and Snow) were either destroyed or hollow remnants of their former selves and could hardly be considered fully formed characters.  In Season 1, all the characters were still viable, with some depth, believable emotion and character beats.  Despite going around in circles in the middle, there was a relatively coherent story which explained the basic premise presented in the pilot.  

I still enjoy S3 more because the characters were at the peak of their development and it was mainly about them. The S3 finale (up until Marian shows up) tied up their arcs very nicely and gave me all the warm, fuzzy feelings that maybe the S1 finale didn't. S3 seemed more representative of the series as a whole, both in its strengths and weaknesses. I had its flaws and its own batch of BS, but it did condense more of what I loved about the series. Hook, Robin, and Zelena were there too. If you can get past the stupid filler episodes like "Nasty Habits" and "The Tower", it really maximized the fairy tale fun.

There are very few things we needed to see after S3 for the series to be satisfying. Captain Swan's wedding and Zelena's redemption were the only two things I would've wanted to make it a happy ending. I could've gone without Robin's death, Zelena's rape baby, Gideon, or Henry becoming the Author. If Rumple didn't "kill" Zelena and swap the dagger, and if Marian or Elsa hadn't shown up, I would've been okay with the S3 finale being the series finale.

Edited August 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Season 3 felt more piecemeal to me.  In 3A, Emma, Regina and Rumple were still "developing", but the rest of the originals (including the supporting cast) were pretty much cardboard cutouts so it was like half the show had already broken off into the sea.  Both 3A and 3B meandered aimlessly in the middle, and they didn't fit together to form any sort of coherent story or character journey.  Neither Peter Pan nor Zelena were as strong as Regina or Rumple as big bads, and the two arcs felt like they were more about them, than many of the main characters (especially 3B, which seemed to be more about Zelena than the "heroes").   I suppose 3A was ultimately about Rumple meeting his nemesis and 3B was about Regina meeting her nemesis.  

Despite the flaws, even by that point, there was still a lot of potential left in the show.  As we've mentioned many times before the 3A finale could have rejuvenated the series and injected new life and new avenues of character development.  But we all know how that turned out.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Camera One