A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Rumsy4]

I think the writers overall gave Hook/WHook the most consistent arcs. Hook’s Season 6 arc was torture to watch—nobody likes seeing their fav characters angsting all the time. But otherwise, he escaped becoming a cardboard cutout like poor Snow or getting insta-hero treatment like Regina and Rumple. I was pleasantly surprised at the larger focus on the WHook-Alice stuff in the latter half of Season 7.

What all this tells me is that the writers know how to write a decent arc for a character, but more often than not, their various agendas get in the way. For example, the writers knew very well that Rumple was an abusive pos, but they wanted him to be the Machiavellian villain and also the sympathetic “good” guy. Hence the constant yo-yoing that ended up ruining Belle as a character. When they wrote Jekyll as the bad guy, he was a mirror-reflection of Rumple. Entitled, whiney, vengeful, weak. And yet, ultimately, it all came to nothing. Rumple didn’t learn any lesson, and Belle went back to him anyway. I guess the writers thought that the viewers would keep rooting for Rumple’s redemption through it all. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think the writers overall gave Hook/WHook the most consistent arcs.

I wouldn't discount Zelena either. She never really backslid after the Underworld and did achieve clear character development. It wasn't the best writing in the world, but she and Hook are probably the most human and least lobotomized characters of the entire bunch.

[profdanglais]

24 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I guess the writers thought that the viewers would keep rooting for Rumple’s redemption through it all. 

Rumple's death at the end of 3A should have stuck. That would have been real redemption for him, and we could have had some meaningful development with Neal/Emma/Hook instead of the Great Neal Whitewash in which he somehow becomes a hero for dying as a result of using dark magic to resurrect a man who no one but him and maybe Belle wanted to see back. 

I think they just didn't want to "waste" their favourite shiny toy, Robert Carlyle. He could have kept playing Imp!Rumple in flashbacks, but that wasn't enough. They had to keep giving him stuff to do in the present to feel like they were getting their money's worth, even when he was pretty much just repeating "when I cleave myself from the dagger" fifteen times per episode.  

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I wouldn't discount Zelena either. She never really backslid after the Underworld and did achieve clear character development. It wasn't the best writing in the world, but she and Hook are probably the most human and least lobotomized characters of the entire bunch.

I agree—Zelena had a good redemption arc. I warmed to her in the last two seasons. She did backslide in S6, but she also fixed her mistakes.

Her redemption is how Regina’s should have gone. She was basically Regina-lite, but it took a long time for other characters to start trusting her. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Zelena is another one who changed through the love of a child.  

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Zelena is another one who changed through the love of a child.  

Was it really for a child? I thought her main change was because of getting her childhood memories of Regina back and confronting Cora.

In the rewatch, we're getting into the part that was really hard for me to watch in the first place because Regina was so very awful, and it's even harder to watch now, knowing that she basically gets away with all of it, and these people she's tormenting now are going to be groveling to her later. I know that her never being blamed for or being held accountable for Graham's death is one of the injustices of the series, but on this watch, it occurred to me that she also never got held accountable for Leopold's death -- even though Snow knew about it. Snow knew Regina was responsible for her father's death, and aside from her letter when the Huntsman was sent to kill her, Snow never really says anything about it. She lets Regina go on about her killing Cora but nobody brings up Leopold. I guess that's one reason they couldn't say or do much about Hook killing David's father, since Regina killing Snow's father in order to hurt Snow and take everything away from her was treated as no big deal. A wrong-place, wrong-time killing that wasn't personal would have to be even less of a deal.

Snow acts like she knows why Regina hates her in "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter," but didn't she only find out that Daniel died when Regina gave her the poisoned apple? She just knew that Daniel left, but I don't recall her knowing she had any responsibility for that, unless she did the math as an adult, and even then, how is his choice Snow's fault? While I like the non-chronological flashbacks in season one, there are a number of cases in which the continuity doesn't really hold up well.

[Camera One]

49 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Was it really for a child? I thought her main change was because of getting her childhood memories of Regina back and confronting Cora.

Her redemption started two episodes before that, when she was first brought down to the Underworld in "Her Handsome Hero".  She started to show real concern for her daughter and was willing to let Robin Hood take her into safety in the forest.  In the next episode, "Ruby Slippers", Zelena showed a bit of regret about what she did to Dorothy.  "Sisters" was after that episode.  So Zelena got a clear multi-episode arc of redemption which started with her beginning to care about someone other than herself (which was her daughter).

We never got to see this moving redemption play out with Gothel.  Sad!

Edited June 23, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

We never got to see this moving redemption play out with Gothel.  Sad!

If she had a fanbase full of people cheering on her redemption, would they be Coat Hangerettes? Mother's Children? The Gothel Gang?

Edited June 23, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

46 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

If she had a fanbase full of people cheering on her redemption, would they be Coat Hangerettes? Mother's Children? The Gothel Gang?

If?  The Children of the Glade is a very strong fandom and we meet in the sewers of Seattle.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In the rewatch, we're getting into the part that was really hard for me to watch in the first place because Regina was so very awful, and it's even harder to watch now, knowing that she basically gets away with all of it, and these people she's tormenting now are going to be groveling to her later. I know that her never being blamed for or being held accountable for Graham's death is one of the injustices of the series, but on this watch, it occurred to me that she also never got held accountable for Leopold's death -- even though Snow knew about it. Snow knew Regina was responsible for her father's death, and aside from her letter when the Huntsman was sent to kill her, Snow never really says anything about it. She lets Regina go on about her killing Cora but nobody brings up Leopold.

Yeah, watching "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" knowing that not only does Regina never get any comeuppance for her crimes, but that no one ever finds out/confirms that she killed Graham is pretty bad. Especially given that, as Henry had already suspected it at the time, Emma, at least, would have to realize in retrospect that Regina probably HAD killed Graham, which means it isn't that no one knows, it is that no one ever brings it up. 

The thing that confuses me about the flashbacks is the apparent close relationship between teen Snow and Regina after Leopold's death. I can't remember if that is specifically contradicted by anything from later seasons, but I can't actually imagine that Regina was able to fake an affectionate relationship with her for years. I guess it is possible that Regina was fairly cold but not openly hostile to Snow, and that Snow was herself warm and loving enough to still reach out to Regina in a time of (presumed) shared grief. But again, I don't remember if we get fleshing out on exactly what Regina was like to Snow during the years of the marriage. 

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The thing that confuses me about the flashbacks is the apparent close relationship between teen Snow and Regina after Leopold's death. I can't remember if that is specifically contradicted by anything from later seasons, but I can't actually imagine that Regina was able to fake an affectionate relationship with her for years. I guess it is possible that Regina was fairly cold but not openly hostile to Snow, and that Snow was herself warm and loving enough to still reach out to Regina in a time of (presumed) shared grief. But again, I don't remember if we get fleshing out on exactly what Regina was like to Snow during the years of the marriage. 

Agreed.  That time period was not fleshed out very well.  Some of the flashbacks only showed Regina and not Snow.  For example, the Tinkerbelle one where Regina felt she was abandoned at the palace while Leopold and Snow went on a tour of the kingdom.  If she felt so "left out", why didn't she go with them?  Then, there were flashbacks where we only saw Regina doing stuff behind-the-scenes, like visiting Maleficent and helping her to get her groove back and then coming back and putting Snow's horse in a Sleeping Curse.  One of the few flashbacks I can recall from the period was the Hercules episode, when Leopold was out of the palace.  Younger Snow seemed to be completely duped by Regina, not realizing it was she who was hiring people to terrorize to make Snow look bad.  Except that backstory was idiotic because why would the Princess being dealing with stuff the kingdom's soldiers and sheriffs should be handling?  What Snow knew/didn't know about Regina was very ambiguous.

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

but on this watch, it occurred to me that she also never got held accountable for Leopold's death -- even though Snow knew about it. Snow knew Regina was responsible for her father's death, and aside from her letter when the Huntsman was sent to kill her, Snow never really says anything about it. She lets Regina go on about her killing Cora but nobody brings up Leopold.

That's the reason why I never could buy the whole Regina/Snow "close friendship" later on, even less so than the Regina/Emma "friendship", because Regina murdered someone who was extremely close to Snow.  Regina never even approached apologizing for that, unless it was supposed to be covered by "I was a bad stepmother".  Of course, there are those who have argued before that Regina didn't murder Leopold and pin the blame entirely on Sidney.  

Edited June 24, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

The thing that confuses me about the flashbacks is the apparent close relationship between teen Snow and Regina after Leopold's death. I can't remember if that is specifically contradicted by anything from later seasons, but I can't actually imagine that Regina was able to fake an affectionate relationship with her for years.

Heck, it's contradicted in this very episode. They're acting all loving to each other after the funeral, but then in the woods, Snow instantly jumps to the "Regina sent you to kill me, didn't she?" conclusion and seems to know that Regina hates her and why. She knew enough about how Regina felt about her to write that letter, and there was no sign at all of that when they were hugging by the coffin.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I guess it is possible that Regina was fairly cold but not openly hostile to Snow, and that Snow was herself warm and loving enough to still reach out to Regina in a time of (presumed) shared grief.

That may be, up to a point, but it's kind of freaky if Snow was able to be that warm and loving toward someone she expected to order her death. Then again, I guess she's consistent.

On another note, the design for Regina's palace is freaky. It's a perfect villain lair, but it's really weird to have been the home of a good king and the place where Snow White grew up. It's like they designed the perfect palace for the Evil Queen, totally forgetting that it would have been Snow White's castle, but then they were stuck with it when they got to the part of the story where it was still Snow White's castle.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

On another note, the design for Regina's palace is freaky. It's a perfect villain lair, but it's really weird to have been the home of a good king and the place where Snow White grew up. It's like they designed the perfect palace for the Evil Queen, totally forgetting that it would have been Snow White's castle, but then they were stuck with it when they got to the part of the story where it was still Snow White's castle.

Yes, that was another thing that really bugged me in Season 1.  It would have made more sense if they said the Evil Queen built it herself after she took over.

Quote

Heck, it's contradicted in this very episode. They're acting all loving to each other after the funeral, but then in the woods, Snow instantly jumps to the "Regina sent you to kill me, didn't she?" conclusion and seems to know that Regina hates her and why. She knew enough about how Regina felt about her to write that letter, and there was no sign at all of that when they were hugging by the coffin.

I wasn't sure I remembered right, but yeah, that confused me.  If Snow knew that Regina could have been behind the death, why would she bother crying on her shoulder?  I thought in Season 1 maybe we would see Snow slowly cluing in that Regina was evil, but nope.  Clearly, the Writers didn't spend a millisecond thinking about this after the fact.  Because they didn't feel the need to clarify.  

You'd think when they were trying to dig deep to find new flashbacks to write in later seasons, they would rewatch the earlier seasons to see some of the inconsistencies they could explain.  Were they arrogant or lazy or what?

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Were they arrogant or lazy or what?

They probably thought the viewers would be too dazzled by their writing to care.

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yes, that was another thing that really bugged me in Season 1.  It would have made more sense if they said the Evil Queen built it herself after she took over.

Really, it looks like the lair of a Bond villain, rather high-tech. You expect lasers to fire through the roof into space, wiping out the communications satellites so the villain could control all communications. And there's a shark tank in the basement. It doesn't even look like something that could have been built with the materials and technology of that world, like it's all curving steel. But then inside, it looks like they're in a building made of stone, and the windows and balconies we see from the inside aren't like anything we see on the outside. It would have made a lot more sense if Regina transformed the castle magically after she took over. Leopold's castle should have been something more fairy-tale, not so threatening and cold, and it should have been surrounded by gardens where Snow White could have communed with birds.

On a related note ...

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

Snow mentions that her father's knights all offered her condolences, which means that the Black Knights were her father's soldiers.  So why were they all evil?  Did Regina recruit a completely new force, or take all their hearts?  Why would Snow's father choose such uniforms? 

That's also weird, that the good king's knights all looked like Dark Overlord henchmen and flipped so easily to Regina. Before Regina either recruited her own men or took their hearts, they should have looked more like conventional knights, with Regina redesigning their uniforms. I feel like we're missing a piece of the story. We needed to see the scene in which Regina made them swear loyalty to her, and she killed or ripped out the hearts of the ones who refused. I still wonder where all the black knights were in Storybrooke. I don't think we get even the slightest hint of any person in town having been a knight. If Graham was the sheriff, then he should have had a whole staff made up of the other knights (though it's also weird that she made the one who betrayed her the sheriff).

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

So Zelena got a clear multi-episode arc of redemption which started with her beginning to care about someone other than herself (which was her daughter).

While Zelena's redemption arc made sense, her descent into evil was rather silly. She grew up poor and had a father who abused her and called her wicked when her mother wasn't around (and it's odd that having magic is looked down upon in a world ruled by good witches), but she goes evil when she reaches a place where she has everything she ever wanted, but someone else also gets something good. I could see someone having issues, maybe being a bit of a gray figure, but not at civilization-destroying evil levels (and I consider trying to rewrite history to be civilization-destroying). But I guess it's better than Regina, where neither her descent into evil nor her redemption really made a lot of sense. I guess the fact that they were so wrong was what made them so evil, and in Zelena's case figuring that out had a lot to do with her redemption, but Regina never seemed to figure out that she was wrong. She did seem to grasp that murdering people was bad, but I don't think she ever stopped thinking that her vendetta against Snow had been entirely rational and justified, in spite of Cora having been the one to actually kill Daniel and in spite of her realizing just how good a manipulator Cora was, so that a child didn't stand a chance.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

it's odd that having magic is looked down upon in a world ruled by good witches

None of the instances in the show where magic is considered evil by someone makes any sense. Apart from this example, there is Tamara. Why she thought magic was "unholy" was never explained. At least with Owen, it's reasonable.

Then there was Gothel's villain origin story. Why did those pre-historic victorian women hate magic, and how did they succeed in killing multiple magical beings but not Gothel?

I guess A&E wanted to invoke the historical and religious fear of witches in all these instances, but without the background, it didn't make sense. It comes down to poor world-building. 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Apart from this example, there is Tamara. Why she thought magic was "unholy" was never explained. At least with Owen, it's reasonable.

It's such a shame we never got to learn more about her grandma.  Clearly, magic destroyed the grandmother's life and it's sad we never got to see the full story.  Ditto for the fascinating history surrounding Mother Gothel and the prehistoric Victorian anti-tree nymph contingent.  ABC should be ashamed that they lost out on these Amazing Stories!  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It's such a shame we never got to learn more about her grandma.  Clearly, magic destroyed the grandmother's life and it's sad we never got to see the full story.  Ditto for the fascinating history surrounding Mother Gothel and the prehistoric Victorian anti-tree nymph contingent.  ABC should be ashamed that they lost out on these Amazing Stories!  

Why couldn't we get a season 8 led by Resurrected!Tamara, Resurrected!Gothel, and Jacinda? They could market it as "Fairy Tale Women Power Hour". Cameos by Merida and Dorothy.

Edited June 25, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

20 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

None of the instances in the show where magic is considered evil by someone makes any sense. Apart from this example, there is Tamara. Why she thought magic was "unholy" was never explained. At least with Owen, it's reasonable.

 

Its really like they saw other shows and books and such doing the "non magic users hate and fear magic users" thing, or just saw an X Men movie, and decided to throw it in to to give us a reason to hate one of their lame villains, even if its never explained why they feel that way, how widespread it is in the EF (especially with Dwarfs and fairies being seemingly somewhat common place), or how any of them got to that conclusion. Its typical A&E. They see other, better stories and what they do, and want to do the same, but without bothering to explain any of it and why it works at all. 

It really is super hard to watch this part of the show, knowing that Regina gets away with everything, and will eventually be named Dictator for Life or whatever. She was just so awful, and while its great to see actually being a good villain and Emma fighting back, its all so sad knowing how she never gets her just desserts. And this isnt even getting into her multiple village slaughters we get into later! I really do think that the rape and murder of Graham still sits with him so much, so viscerally. Its just so personal, and so brutal, and there is something about it that ties it into the real world, with a powerful person getting away with sexual assault, that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

In universe, because even Super Best person Ever Regina never told anyone what she did, even Emma, and the heroes are either total morons who never put two and two together and figured out why a guy in perfect health died of a "heart attack" just as he was breaking free of a murderer whos whole thing is CRUSHING HEARTS, or, and this might be sadly true, they just didnt care. They fell under Regina's spell, and never again cared about any of her past victims. 

I agree. If it had been brought up, the episode would somehow still be Regina throwing a fit, and Emma, Snow, and Henry groveling at her feet for having upset her by bringing it up. I mean, the series ended with Wish Henry accepting Regina as his mother, the woman who murdered his grandparents and kidnapped his mother (as he thought). 

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This episode is even worse in retrospect knowing that Graham will NEVER get justice for his constant rapes and eventually murder. In universe, because even Super Best person Ever Regina never told anyone what she did, even Emma, and the heroes are either total morons who never put two and two together and figured out why a guy in perfect health died of a "heart attack" just as he was breaking free of a murderer whos whole thing is CRUSHING HEARTS

Ask and you shall receive!  This is an unaired episode from 2B.

------------

EMMA:  Regina!  

From a distance, EMMA and MARY MARGARET see REGINA enter the vault.  They follow closely behind, but Regina is so distraught that she doesn't notice them.  They descend the stairs.

REGINA: What are you two doing here?  Get out!

EMMA sees the CABINET of HEARTS.

EMMA: So you really did take out people's heart?  Did you have Graham's heart here?  Did you crush it?  Did you kill him?!!!

The scene FLASHES back to the past.  In the Enchanted Forest, SNOW and CHARMING are on horses.

CHARMING: We've almost caught up to The Evil Queen.  We will end this at last.  Look!  Her evil wolves!

SNOW aims an arrow.  It shoots straight through one of the wolves.

VOICE: Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!

The HUNTSMAN runs up.  He is crying.

HUNTSMAN: Mother Wolf!

SNOW: Oh no!  I am sorry!  I didn't know!

HUNTSMAN: Your men have murdered my entire family.  Is this how you repay me for helping you?

BACK in Storybrooke, EMMA continues to badger Regina.  Instinctively, we want to hug and protect Regina.

REGINA: Let me explain.  

EMMA: This better be good.

REGINA: What I did for Graham was I ended his suffering.  When he remembered his past, his grief over the murder of his wolf family cut to the core of his heart.  I have known him for so long, I could feel it.  When a wolf dies, the clan seeks to reunite their souls through death.  That was what I gave Graham, a final gift of peace and serenity.

EMMA: Who killed his family?  You?

REGINA:  No.  Your parents killed his family.

We feel the same betrayed feelings as Emma.  We are SHOCKED.  SHOCKED.  What type of person murders animals?

EMMA: Mom?!!  

MARY MARGARET looks away in shame.  SHAME!

HENRY has entered the vault without anyone hearing.  He runs up.

HENRY: I thought you were the hero!

EMMA: So did I.  Thank you for telling us the truth, Regina.  

Edited June 26, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Oh @Camera One its funny because its totally what they would do. I didnt want it, but now I have it!

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

We feel the same betrayed feelings as Emma.  We are SHOCKED.  SHOCKED. 

WE REALLY LIKE THIS WOMAN.

[andromeda331]

It really makes no sense that no one figured out Regina was Evil during her marriage. Did she rip out the hearts of all the guards? All the servants? If so why wouldn't Leopold or anyone else noticed that. Maybe some could be bribed but everyone? What happened to anyone loyal to Leo? Were they all murdered? Replaced. Wouldn't people notice that. Wouldn't Leo? According to Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Leopold was only concerned that his wife may have a lover. So he's never once realized he was evil? What did he think she was then a gold digger? Wanting power? If so when did she use her power? From the flashbacks she spent a lot of her time being taught magic from Rumple. Where did he think she was? What about the rest of the castle staff? The ones who prepared all that food in the episode where Rumple shows up because she missed a lesson. Did no one report that back to the King? Did they kill him? Learn to avoid the Queen? No one notices the Queen making the trip to where Maleficent lives? No one in the kingdom gossips about how little the Queen spends with her husband and stepdaughter? Information doesn't ever slip from the castle? Even before TV and internet was invited in our world stuff always slipped out of royal families no matter how hard they tried. People talk. Servants go home and make remarks to friends and family. Did the Enchanted Kingdom have newspapers full of ongoings about their rulers? Regina pretends to be the long suffering wife to the Magic Mirror to fool him. But in other flash backs of course when she's putting Snow's horse under a sleeping curse and ripping off Snow's ribbons its hard to see how anyone could possibly not realize this woman was evil or at least really messed up and probably not to be trusted let alone Leopold and Snow.  

Edited June 26, 2018 by andromeda331

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really makes no sense that no one figured out Regina was Evil during her marriage.

It's hard to tell how much anyone figured out. It seems Snow knew Regina killed Leopold, but when did she figure that out? How long did she know Regina hated her?

And if she knew, why did she cave so quickly and easily? When she was a little kid and her mother died, she bravely did her duty and handled the public role. When she's an adult and should be the rightful queen, she just gives up and lets Regina throw her out of the castle. At that time, she doesn't know Regina has magical powers, and since she mentions getting condolences from her father's knights, she has to think that at least some of the knights are on her side. Why doesn't she at least try to get Regina arrested for killing the king instead of letting Regina send her off, on foot, with no baggage, to the summer palace? And once Graham lets her go, why doesn't she try to rally any support to take the kingdom?

Does she hold so much guilt for ruining Regina's life -- which she doesn't know the details about at that time. She doesn't learn that Daniel died until later, and she must know that she didn't kill anyone, so what could she think she did? -- that she's willing to just hand over her kingdom? Again, she's a terrible ruler for putting her personal feelings ahead of the kingdom. She'll turn her kingdom over to a vengeful queen because she feels bad?

Though I think A&E don't realize that the king's wife doesn't become the ruling queen when the king dies. When it does happen, it's considered a coup de etat (like with Catherine the Great). They mostly treat it as though Regina was the rightful queen, except there was one scene in which Regina talks about having taken the castle from Snow.

And then there's Regina's complete failure at killing Snow. That kind of worked there was a slight implication that Regina didn't really want to kill her, but then we got the flashback in which she thought she'd killed her and was overjoyed, so we're back to pure incompetence. Why not kill Snow the same way she had Leopold killed, and pin it on the same genie, who must have been thought to have escaped, since I doubt anyone knew about the mirror? She'd obviously turned some of the knights, since they were willing to drag the Huntsman to her bed chamber, so why not send them rather than the new guy?

I suspect a lot of this stuff happened because it was in the fairy tale (not that telling the fairy tale story was that important either time they did Cinderella). They didn't really come up with in-story logic to explain it.

[andromeda331]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's hard to tell how much anyone figured out. It seems Snow knew Regina killed Leopold, but when did she figure that out? How long did she know Regina hated her?

And if she knew, why did she cave so quickly and easily? When she was a little kid and her mother died, she bravely did her duty and handled the public role. When she's an adult and should be the rightful queen, she just gives up and lets Regina throw her out of the castle. At that time, she doesn't know Regina has magical powers, and since she mentions getting condolences from her father's knights, she has to think that at least some of the knights are on her side. Why doesn't she at least try to get Regina arrested for killing the king instead of letting Regina send her off, on foot, with no baggage, to the summer palace? And once Graham lets her go, why doesn't she try to rally any support to take the kingdom?

Does she hold so much guilt for ruining Regina's life -- which she doesn't know the details about at that time. She doesn't learn that Daniel died until later, and she must know that she didn't kill anyone, so what could she think she did? -- that she's willing to just hand over her kingdom? Again, she's a terrible ruler for putting her personal feelings ahead of the kingdom. She'll turn her kingdom over to a vengeful queen because she feels bad?

Though I think A&E don't realize that the king's wife doesn't become the ruling queen when the king dies. When it does happen, it's considered a coup de etat (like with Catherine the Great). They mostly treat it as though Regina was the rightful queen, except there was one scene in which Regina talks about having taken the castle from Snow.

And then there's Regina's complete failure at killing Snow. That kind of worked there was a slight implication that Regina didn't really want to kill her, but then we got the flashback in which she thought she'd killed her and was overjoyed, so we're back to pure incompetence. Why not kill Snow the same way she had Leopold killed, and pin it on the same genie, who must have been thought to have escaped, since I doubt anyone knew about the mirror? She'd obviously turned some of the knights, since they were willing to drag the Huntsman to her bed chamber, so why not send them rather than the new guy?

I suspect a lot of this stuff happened because it was in the fairy tale (not that telling the fairy tale story was that important either time they did Cinderella). They didn't really come up with in-story logic to explain it.

Those are really good questions. If Snow knew Regina killed her father why didn't she try to have her arrested? Even if she lost either Regina unleashing her powers or something on her that would make a little more sense on why she ran. But not why she wouldn't have immediately looked for support against Regina for murdering the King. Good question on why not kill Leopold and Snow together? It would make more sense and people would be a lot more sympathetic to Regina having buried her husband and stepdaughter. Why would she be suspected if they were looking for the guy who disappeared into a mirror? All people would think was he got away. Another really good question is why does Snow think Regina is doing all of this and take it? She won't know why Regina hates her for a good while. So why does she think she does? If she thinks Regina only was nice to be Queen then why wouldn't she be suspicious of anything Regina does much later? Why would Regina go through all that work to pretend to be nice and marry the King then ignore her later if she wasn't planning to rule herself? Why does she think Regina hates her? Why does she think she ruined Regina's life? It really makes no sense. 

[Camera One]

And flashbacks where we see Snow finding out Regina killed her father and trying to get her throne could have been entertaining.  We would root on Young Snow as she tried to stop Regina from carrying out her plan to kill her.  But nope, we can only have flashbacks where Young Snow gets duped by Regina.  Maybe they didn't want to remind us that Regina killed Snow's father and they didn't want to show how much pain and grief that caused Snow.  Because it would undermine why the hell Snow would let Regina get within a mile of her.

[tennisgurl]

It would actually be funny if Snow actually never had any real clue what she did to piss Regina off, until years later. Like, she actually did think Regina hated her because she was prettier than she was, like she said in the pilot, and was actually shocked to find out it was actually about that stupid secret from years ago. "Wait...thats what this was about all this time? I thought you were pissed about that time I stepped on your foot during the ballroom dancing classes you ducked out of after three seconds, or were just super petty when that guy in the market thought you were my bio mom. Seriously?"

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It would actually be funny if Snow actually never had any real clue what she did to piss Regina off, until years later. Like, she actually did think Regina hated her because she was prettier than she was, like she said in the pilot, and was actually shocked to find out it was actually about that stupid secret from years ago. "Wait...thats what this was about all this time? I thought you were pissed about that time I stepped on your foot during the ballroom dancing classes you ducked out of after three seconds, or were just super petty when that guy in the market thought you were my bio mom. Seriously?"

That could have played with the original fairy tale even more.  Maybe a Magic Mirror comes to the Kingdom and it said something that revealed Regina's ugly side to Snow, something that pointed to suspicions about Leopold's death.  

I would also have liked to see Regina as the Hag for a bit longer.  Maybe a variation of the poisoned comb.  

On rewatch, I still don't understand why it took so long for Sidney to turn on Regina.  She trapped him for years in the Mirror World.  She manipulated and betrayed him but he still wanted to do her bidding?  Huh?  

[companionenvy]

Yeah, rewatching "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" reinforced how little the Regina backstory makes sense - especially when you juxtapose it with "Desperate Souls, "and Rumple backstory that, at least for me, remains really effective even in spite of later canon (Rumple not having a head!Zoso is, for me, within the realm of acceptable retcons for an long running show - I didn't happen to like head!Rumple, but it was a major enough plot point that I don't think the writers should have been stopped by the fact that we hadn't seen Rumple hallucinating previous DOs four seasons earlier). 

It is one thing if the show had tweaked timelines later, but for all that we spent excessive amounts of time on the atrocities of EQ Regina, we get almost no sense of how the Leopold-Snow-Regina household actually functioned. Regina is way too psychotic for me to believe that she was able to pass for a decent wife, stepmother and queen for at least several years. But the things we know about the family dynamics during those years are fairly banal. We know Leopold selected Regina more as a mother for Snow than because he deeply loved her, which is consistent with Regina's feeling somewhat slighted as he lavished affection on Snow and idealized his late wife. We know that while Regina's hatred for Snow stemmed from the Daniel incident, she also appears to have been jealous of her over more mundane matters like her beauty and horsemanship. We know that Leopold felt hurt and betrayed when he believed Regina was having an affair. Snow claims that she could be "a brat" as a kid (though we see no evidence of this from any scene after Regina enters her life). But evidently, Snow is close enough to Regina to be embracing her after Leopold's death - although, incoherently, within flashbacks from the same approximate time period, she automatically assumes Regina is trying to kill her. 

That leaves us with some very basic questions about the nature of the family on a day to day basis. Regina and Leopold weren't a love match, but presumably, they had a sexual relationship. Was Leopold at least fond of her, or did Regina behave in such a way that it became a marriage in name only in fairly short order? Did she and Snow have a superficially warm relationship even as Regina simmered in anger, or was little Snow left to wonder why Regina had turned so cold, even if she saved the assassination attempts until after Leopold's murder? Were they having family dinners? Was Regina fulfilling royal functions? "Not as beloved as the crown princess" is not a terribly revealing metric; what did the people think about Regina before she became the EQ? That's not even getting into the question of how she managed to turn the black knights against Snow (I assume magic/heart stealing was involved, but it wouldn't have taken much to explain it).

At least if Snow had been shocked to learn that Regina was plotting to kill her, while it would still beggar belief that Regina could have hidden her hatred for years, it wouldn't be totally nonsensical within the context of an episode that had begun with the two embracing in what Snow thought was shared grief. 

[Camera One]

I suppose they might have decided to have Snow realize that Regina was trying to kill her because they wanted her to write that letter.  If she had just found out that everything she thought was a lie, I'm not sure she could compose that.  Though it's quizzical that she's writing about revenge when she has no idea at that point the real reason for Regina's anger. 

I really think that first scene with the "loving" embrace was supposed to be a surprising twist to make us *think* Regina and Snow had a loving relationship at some point.  As a child, I think Snow would have blindly spent time with Regina since she was so enthused about her from the start.  Or maybe she could have attributed Regina's change to Daniel leaving, not realizing she had anything to do with it.

In Season 2, I think they had Snow saying that she watched Cora doing magic, so they could have done a flashback where Snow realized that Regina knew magic too and came to the conclusion that she would never be able to stop her, even though she realized Leopold's death was not an accident.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

(Rumple not having a head!Zoso is, for me, within the realm of acceptable retcons for an long running show - I didn't happen to like head!Rumple, but it was a major enough plot point that I don't think the writers should have been stopped by the fact that we hadn't seen Rumple hallucinating previous DOs four seasons earlier). 

There's a canon reason why he didn't. Clippy!DO only shows up when you don't "embrace the darkness" or whatever. Rumple fully accept his role as the Dark One without hesitation. Emma and Hook did not, so that's why they were graced with Clippy's presence. Rumple saw Clippy himself in 6x22 when he started having selfless (*chokes*) thoughts.

Edited June 27, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

In Season 2, I think they had Snow saying that she watched Cora doing magic, so they could have done a flashback where Snow realized that Regina knew magic too and came to the conclusion that she would never be able to stop her, even though she realized Leopold's death was not an accident.

That part where Snow talked about sneaking out and watching Cora practice magic doesn't work with their timeline. Regina pushed Cora through the mirror to Wonderland before she got married. Based on the events of "Stable Boy", the whole thing occurred over a very, very short period of time and there was no time for Snow to have had multiple chances to sneak out and watch Cora. That line was a total plot contrivance to give Snow some pretend knowledge about the drug like properties of written spells. The show dropped the whole Regina needs to snort a spell book in order to do magic thing like a hot potato because that was too limiting for the character. It's too bad too because actually following up with "magic works differently here" and restricting Regina, who we saw was not a natural like Emma or Zelena and not magically enhanced like Rumpel, to a lesser level of magic would have been a nice tack to take instead of leaving villains overpowered and unstoppable until random items fall off of shelves.

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

However, how weird is it for them to write an episode where Emma saves Regina's life immediately following the episode where Regina murdered Emma's friend? All at the same time as basically handwaving Graham's death as natural causes and presumably never to be really examined again by these characters because they all completely buy this reasoning. It's crazy. 

The writing was on the wall even this early on. 

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

That part where Snow talked about sneaking out and watching Cora practice magic doesn't work with their timeline. Regina pushed Cora through the mirror to Wonderland before she got married.

And, given the attitude toward magic that they (sometimes) have, would Leopold have married Regina if he knew her mother was a sorceress? I suspect the real reason for that bit was that it was key to their plot that Snow know Cora was a threat so she and Emma could argue, then they remembered that Snow wouldn't have known just how awful Cora was, so they threw in a line about watching her do magic.

This is another case in which looking at events in chronological order makes you realize how little sense they make. The story from Leo and Snow's perspective: Leo nearly breaks his betrothal to Eva and marries Cora, until Eva reveals that Cora has been lying to him, stealing from him, and planning to pass her unborn child off as his once they're married. Years later, Eva is preparing Snow to one day be queen, teaching her valuable lessons about duty and the importance of not being a brat. Snow soon has to show how she's learned these lessons when her mother dies, and she refuses the chance to use dark magic to save her. In her father's absence, young Snow does her duty and handles her mother's funeral. When Regina saves Snow from a runaway horse, Leo decides she's the perfect candidate for a new wife who can be a mother to Snow, and learning that she's the daughter of the woman who once tried to use him doesn't alarm or bother him (I guess he's not the least bit worried that she'll see his daughter as a threat to her potential grandchild taking the throne). Snow learns that Regina doesn't want to marry Leo because she's in love with Daniel and tells Cora, hoping Cora will let Regina off the hook, then Regina later tells Snow that Daniel left town. Apparently, Snow sees Cora doing magic, but this doesn't give anyone pause, I guess because Cora soon vanishes (is no one concerned about this?). As she grows older, Snow continues to take on responsibilities of a ruler, going so far as to deal with bandits herself. When her father dies, she shares grief with her stepmother, then goes off on foot to go to the summer palace, but she figures out that Regina is going to have the guard kill her and writes an eloquent apology letter.

So, all that preparing to be queen and taking responsibility, but she doesn't do anything about actually taking the throne when her father dies? If they're writing a system in which the ruler's spouse takes the throne, then why would Snow have been trained so much to rule, and why would her father have remarried, if that might take the throne from his daughter? She had a nursemaid who was like a mother, so did she actually need a trophy wife stepmother? Why would he marry the daughter of someone he knew was a scheming social climber? She'd have been a potential threat to his daughter. Doubly so if she's become a powerful sorceress in the meantime and Snow knows about this.

[Camera One]

Was there double the amount of screentime telling this part of the story from Regina/Cora's POV versus Snow/Leopold/Eva's?  As you said, from Snow/Leopold/Eva's perspectives, it doesn't make sense.  Jane Espenson said herself that they weren't interested in Leopold's side of things (I think she was talking about "Bleeding Through"?).  So it was mostly to explore Regina's and Cora's demons.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Was there double the amount of screentime telling this part of the story from Regina/Cora's POV versus Snow/Leopold/Eva's?  As you said, from Snow/Leopold/Eva's perspectives, it doesn't make sense.  Jane Espenson said herself that they weren't interested in Leopold's side of things (I think she was talking about "Bleeding Through"?).  So it was mostly to explore Regina's and Cora's demons.

 

Of course it was. Everything was about exploring Regina and Cora. And to make sure we knew what a horrible bitch Eva was for telling Leopold that his girlfriend as trying to pass of her baby as his. I wish we had gotten Leopold's perspective. Why would he marry Cora's daughter? Did he think she was different from her mother? Why wasn't he worried about letting Cora anywhere near his child or his kingdom. I always wondered if his desperation to find a new mother for his daughter was guilt on his part for not being there when his wife died and or for his daughter when she needed him most.  Or explain what he thought about his own marriage. In the episode he's murdered in he only think she might have a lover. So he doesn't think Regina is evil? Or cold or psycho? There's been zero signs in however long they've been married despite Regina mostly keeping to herself. What did he think she was doing? Or explain why Regina still married him. Cora was no longer a threat or a problem. She could have done anything she wanted at that point.  Snow's perspective would have been nice to. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by andromeda331

[Shanna Marie]

My main thought about "7:15" relates to the rest of the series, so I'm putting it here:

It struck me while watching that although Snow and Charming is seen as a kind of gold standard for a love story on this show, they jumped to being in love just about as quickly as most of the later True Love Kiss couples. The difference is that they didn't reach TLK levels until much later when they'd been through a lot more. But here, he's willing to give up everything, jeopardize the kingdom, and put his mother at risk for a woman he barely knows. Snow's so miserable that she can't bear to live without him and has to resort to magic to wipe the memory of him. They had the one adventure together, and they saved each other's lives, but they barely spoke, and they know nothing really about each other.

Emma and Hook may be the only couple on the show that had spent any time together and learned anything about each other before they declared themselves to be in love or had some kind of magical sign that they were meant for each other.

I guess all of this is deeper than in the fairy tales, where they fall in love with one glance.

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Emma and Hook may be the only couple on the show that had spent any time together and learned anything about each other before they declared themselves to be in love or had some kind of magical sign that they were meant for each other.

Rumpbelle, as flawed as they were, also had some passage of time together before falling in love. It's pretty ambiguous how long the Stockholm Syndrome fermented before they declared their love for each other.

Edited June 30, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Rumpbelle, as flawed as they were, also had some passage of time together before falling in love. It's pretty ambiguous how long the Stockholm Syndrome fermented before they declared their love for each other.

True. It's just easy to forget that it took time because it all happened in one episode. That's one thing you can say about them: they weren't even thinking remotely romantically about each other after their first conversation.

[Camera One]

When falling in love with murderers, it's best to get to know them first... that must be the most valuable practical advice I got from this show.  The process had to be slower with Hook and Emma because he was working with a mass murdering psycho when they first met.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I hate that they decided to resort to soap opera shenanigans when they didn't even have to. I think it shows how uncreative they were even back in Season 1. Once again, it was only the actors who made it work, because all it did was to make the characters more unsympathetic in their "let's dirty up the heroes since they're otherwise boring and bland" mindset.

The David Nolan-Mary Margaret affair sub-plot was absolutely unnecessary and had zero impact on the story other than to introduce artificial drama. If David and Mary Margaret had started remembering things becasue of each other like Graham with Emma, that would have been interesting. But David Nolan stayed wishy washy until the curse broke. And Snow ended up retaining the worst of her Mary Margaret persona. What A&E did to Snow was really inexcusable, all the while (wrongly) boasting of being the first people to put a sword in Snow White's hand. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

What A&E did to Snow was really inexcusable, all the while (wrongly) boasting of being the first people to put a sword in Snow White's hand. 

The take-away message by the series finale was that Snow was content with a traditional female career and life path.  I guess this strong feminist role model learned the lesson that she didn't want a sword in her hand, or a gavel or a Crown or any leadership position and whenever things went awry, she like any good hero just accepted it without fighting back because all you need is wishful thinking and blind luck.

[KingOfHearts]

45 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The David Nolan-Mary Margaret affair sub-plot was absolutely unnecessary and had zero impact on the story other than to introduce artificial drama. If David and Mary Margaret had started remembering things becasue of each other like Graham with Emma, that would have been interesting. But David Nolan stayed wishy washy until the curse broke. And Snow ended up retaining the worst of her Mary Margaret persona. What A&E did to Snow was really inexcusable, all the while (wrongly) boasting of being the first people to put a sword in Snow White's hand. 

 

I remember really hating it because it felt like glorified filler. But in retrospect, I think it deepened the feud between Snow and Regina, culminating in the Stable Boy flashbacks. In Storybrooke, it showed the ridiculous lengths Regina was willing to not only protect her curse, but get a second go at revenge against her step-daughter. In a way, it was unnecessary but in a "Regina didn't even have to do this" sort of way. It helped Snowing's characterization grow more complex and the angst built up the breaking of the curse more. (Because you wanted to forget David Nolan ever existed.) I just wish they would've done more with Kathryn and gave her a scene post-curse with Frederick. Seeing them with Snowing and realizing what happened would've been pretty awkward but also a bit of a relief.

At least it gave something for the main characters to worry about so we can get more character centrics in without completely derailing the plot. It was better than breaking the curse halfway through the season like A&E wanted to do.

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The take-away message by the series finale was that Snow was content with a traditional female career and life path.  I guess this strong feminist role model learned the lesson that she didn't want a sword in her hand, or a gavel or a Crown or any leadership position and whenever things went awry, she like any good hero just accepted it without fighting back because all you need is wishful thinking and blind luck.

I still don't get the whole, "Mary Margaret committed adultery with David Nolan, so it's fine if you do it with Robin" thing. Like, yes, Snow would understand how Regina was feeling, but that doesn't mean she should be cheering on tearing apart someone's family.

Edited June 30, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I still don't get the whole, "Mary Margaret committed adultery with David Nolan, so it's fine if you do it with Robin" thing. Like, yes, Snow would understand how Regina was feeling, but that doesn't mean she should be cheering on tearing apart someone's family.

It was more, "I committed adultery so I don't have the moral high ground to judge you even though you created the scenario which separated me from my husband and caused him to have sex with another woman but I'm now a robot so I have no ill feelings towards you and let's take the slow and leisurely walk amidst a crisis because we got an extra hour this season and we have no idea what to do with it."

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was more, "I committed adultery so I don't have the moral high ground to judge you even though you created the scenario which separated me from my husband and caused him to have sex with another woman but I'm now a robot so I have no ill feelings towards you and let's take the slow and leisurely walk amidst a crisis because we got an extra hour this season and we have no idea what to do with it."

And meanwhile, while Regina is experiencing what she put Snow through, she doesn't seem to have a single moment of "Oh, this is what I put you through. How horrible. I'm so sorry." Even though she's supposedly a hero and a good person at that point. A truly good person would feel awful.

[KingOfHearts]

It's interesting that S1 and S7 were equal in length and had a curse with fake personalities for the same amount of episodes. Though, S7 felt much shorter and there was far less character development. In S1, there was a ton of audience angst over breaking the curse. In S7, half the characters were already awake so it didn't matter. It's funny how we keep saying "I wish more characters would've woken up in S1", because that's exactly what happened in S7 and it didn't make anything better.

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's funny how we keep saying "I wish more characters would've woken up in S1", because that's exactly what happened in S7 and it didn't make anything better.

I think in Season 1, people remembering would be a bigger deal.  Either Snow or Charming waking up and remembering and getting to know Emma would have been huge.  Whereas in Season 7, we don't even know how long the Curse lasted and the characters hardly lost any time with each other, so waking up would not be as emotional or bittersweet.

If some people woke and remembered in Season 1 and Regina didn't know, that would have led to some interesting underground resistance stuff.  In Season 7, Drizella herself woke Regina, which was idiotic, and others who awoke like Rumple did practically nothing, so the Writers may very well have not used the scenario to their advantage.

[Shanna Marie]

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think in Season 1, people remembering would be a bigger deal.  Either Snow or Charming waking up and remembering and getting to know Emma would have been huge.  Whereas in Season 7, we don't even know how long the Curse lasted and the characters hardly lost any time with each other, so waking up would not be as emotional or bittersweet.

Yeah, we start season one with Snow and Charming having the iconic True Love Kiss, then their wedding, then Emma's birth, and then their dramatic separation by the curse, so in the very first episode we have a sense of what they've lost, and it matters that they get together again. Plus, they're a canon fairy tale couple, so we bring in all the baggage from the fairy tale and the various versions of it. We know they're supposed to be together. Them not being together is wrong. Under the curse, they're really fighting it because the feelings for each other are there, and yet they feel wrong because of what the curse makes them think.

In season 7, we barely see Henry and Ella together at all during the entire season. We have no picture of what their relationship is like, so we don't know what they've lost. Henry and Cinderella aren't canon from fairy tales. They're a disruption to the fairy tale, so they have to convince us that they're better than the canon couple. And there's absolutely nothing keeping them apart in the present. They could be together at any time if they wanted to. So there's no sense of loss, nothing to look forward to with them waking up. Getting their memories back didn't really change anything, didn't alter their relationship.

What I would have liked in season one was more investigation and figuring stuff out -- more like Graham, but also Emma actually noticing that there are things about the town that don't add up. Like I mentioned in the "True North" thread, why was she so trusting of Regina and just taking Regina's word about where she had to take the kids? Since when is making that kind of arrangement even a mayor's job? If Emma had done things like calling to verify and finding out that there was no record of these kids, that might have made her start digging more. It might have been interesting if she'd come to believe not so much because of anything magical, but because the town just didn't add up.

I don't know that I'd have wanted to see most people get their memories back earlier, especially not the central characters, but it would have been interesting seeing them start to doubt and wonder, and maybe some of the secondary characters magically getting memories back and having a hard time interacting with the ones who don't have their memories.

It didn't seem like anyone in season 7 had to work for their memories or that them getting their memories fit with their story in some way, other than maybe Rumple getting Alice to trigger him. Otherwise, it was just random and pointless.

Another series-long thought spurred by "True North": Regina was supposedly so very maternal, the ultimate mother, with everyone commenting on how she must be a mother because of the way she interacted with kids. But not only did she send kids to their deaths or orphan them, she had a chance to be a mother to a kid who desperately wanted her to be her mother, and she rejected her and tried to destroy her. And if she can't handle a kid blabbing personal business, she'd never really make it as a mother. She's lucky Henry grew up in Storybrooke, where everyone had fuzzy memories and Regina controlled them all. Given the way she reacted to 10-year-old Snow blabbing, how would she have dealt with a typical kid who just blurts out things like what his mom says at home or how Graham is over all the time?

[Camera One]

I agree that more gradual questioning and investigating with Emma would have solved the problem of stagnancy in the middle and second half of Season 1.  They constantly had to have Emma "tricked" by Regina (like when she fell for Sidney being on her side), which was just frustrating and annoying to watch.  Not to mention encountering some major weirdness (eg. Mad Hatter and August) that she just shrugged off by the next episode.  I think having either Snow or Charming waking up would have been necessary as a Season 1 finale cliffhanger, if they had waited another season to break the Curse.  I know the Season 1 finale is beloved, but there were at least 5 major plot watersheds in that episode alone (if not more) which reduced the impact of any of them and short-changed the payoff.  

Edited July 3, 2018 by Camera One