A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Camera One]

I just got hold of the final scene that will be filmed if everyone agrees to return.  It's really heart-wrenching.

GRANNY'S.  EVERYONE IS DRESSED FOR A FUNERAL.

Slow-Motion Shot of EMMA, HOOK, SNOWING and ALL THE RETURNING ORIGINAL CHARACTERS, crying as they look at large photos of REGINA, ZELENA and RUMPLE beside 3 coffins.  These people are DEVASTATED.  They have lost the most important pillars of their community. 

Close-up on TEARS flowing down the faces of EMMA, HOOK and SNOWING.

The DOOR OPENS.  

SLOW-MO AS REGINA, ZELENA and RUMPLE walk in.

EVERYONE's faces LIGHT UP.

No dialogue is necessary as everyone rushes to hug REGINA, ZELENA and RUMPLE.  

Now their life is complete.  HOPE has returned.

FADE TO BLACK.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

^^ Thank you @Camera One. I am so stoked for finale now!!

[KingOfHearts]

There was a funeral for Belle too, but no one but her father showed up.

[Camera One]

The latest on Twitter, with yet another "diplomatic" response from Adam.

Magic99‏ @HopeMagic9995 7h7 hours ago

Best option? Undo s7 & make it an AU or dream. Send Henry home and de-age him so Jared can end the series as he deserves. Bring Belle back. Restore the happy endings. Show Emma & Killian having a baby with Henry there to welcome his new sibling. Bring back the family & the heart.

Adam Horowitz‏ @AdamHorowitzLA

Replying to @HopeMagic9995

That's what fan fiction is for -- to make it whatever you want it to be. But we hope you enjoy the story we choose to tell!

Edited March 4, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That's what fan fiction is for -- to make it whatever you want it to be.

So basically what he's saying is, "If you don't like it, write it yourself"? That's such a lame excuse. Adam has no respect for the word "canon". 

Edited March 4, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's what fanfiction is for -- to make it whatever you want it to be. But we hope you enjoy the story we choose to tell!

Poor Adam. While Eddy is going around saying "Don't like Don't watch", he is saying "Don't like Write fanfic". However, this is one of the few times I agree with Adam. That is what fanfiction is for, and it's nice when content creators don't demonize it. It can't be very flattering when someone tells you to undo a whole season of work because it is crap. For better or worse, this season happened, and in a way that doesn't really affect the lives of many of the characters in Storybrooke. Of course, if you're a Belle fan, canon can't be very satisfying. But, again, that's what fanfic is for.

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Adam has no respect for the word "canon". 

They don't really care about "canon" because they want to treat their show like a badly written fanfic. 

[jhlipton]

On 3/3/2018 at 1:03 PM, Shanna Marie said:

For instance, just what in the heck does a map of that world look like, when you can't swing a cat unless the cat has a passport because there are so many kingdoms within walking distance of each other?

Don't forget Arendelle, just across the bay.

On 3/3/2018 at 7:02 PM, KingOfHearts said:

There was a funeral for Belle too, but no one but her father showed up.

Was his name McKenzie (he's good at darning socks, I hear!)?

[Shanna Marie]

10 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Don't forget Arendelle, just across the bay.

That one seemed to take at least a week's voyage by ship, so it's almost realistic. Anna wasn't able to walk there in an afternoon and be back home for dinner. In fact, it seemed to take longer to get from Arendelle to the Enchanted Forest than it really would take to sail from Norway to Germany or England (depending on where in Norway).

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

It was clean for about an instant at the end of - he is dying from his heart being black for being the dark one for so long and they somehow cleaned it.  I think I might have been completely done with him when after they went through that convoluted plot, he immediately went back to being underhanded once his life was saved and he had a clean heart.  He learned no lesson from the ordeal, and did not even try to resist temptation of going over the dark side.  

It kinda makes sense though. He didn't want to change. He has never made the choice to give up the Darkness. He was artificially forced to give it up by the heroes. They kept him alive instead of dumping him across the town line and be done with it. He was like an alcoholic who just couldn't live without the power it gave him. Besides, he never cared for anyone but himself. He only cared for Belle and his sons as an extension of himself. So, it was easy for him to betray Emma and make Killian's sacrifice meaningless. 

Regina, even if she has never shown regret or remorse, at least stopped killing, r*ping, and betraying people. Rumple never stopped betraying or murdering people. As late as the Season 6 finale, he did both. But we're asked to take it in trust that after Season 6, he kept making the right choices in off-screenville and has a good heeeeaaaaart. Rumple is an example of a person who is weak and keeps making the wrong choices. He would have worked best as a tragic figure who could have had it all. 

[KingOfHearts]

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That one seemed to take at least a week's voyage by ship, so it's almost realistic. Anna wasn't able to walk there in an afternoon and be back home for dinner. In fact, it seemed to take longer to get from Arendelle to the Enchanted Forest than it really would take to sail from Norway to Germany or England (depending on where in Norway).

Ancient China is in there somewhere too, though it's unclear how long it took to get there. It couldn't been that far away, though.

Quote

Rumple is an example of a person who is weak and keeps making the wrong choices. He would have worked best as a tragic figure who could have had it all. 

What I don't understand is that everyone is totally fine with Rumple continuing to be evil, but Regina is held to some standard. Nobody bats an eye if Rumple murders someone. He doesn't seem to care, and nor does anyone else. But if Regina kills someone in defense, it's "oh no she's going to turn dark again! It would be terrible if she went evil. It's not like we have the Darkest Dark One to Ever Dark in our town!" Seriously - how many times has Rumple sold the entire town out to the Big Bad?

Edited March 5, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[ParadoxLost]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It kinda makes sense though. He didn't want to change. He has never made the choice to give up the Darkness. He was artificially forced to give it up by the heroes. They kept him alive instead of dumping him across the town line and be done with it. He was like an alcoholic who just couldn't live without the power it gave him. Besides, he never cared for anyone but himself. He only cared for Belle and his sons as an extension of himself. So, it was easy for him to betray Emma and make Killian's sacrifice meaningless. 

Rumple isn't the first Dark One to get tired of it.  Zoso wanted Rumpel to kill and free him.  So why doesn't Rumple just pass on the dagger.  Is he thinking if he doesn't pass it on that it gives him a pass to a better afterlife? 

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

What I don't understand is that everyone is totally fine with Rumple continuing to be evil, but Regina is held to some standard. Nobody bats an eye if Rumple murders someone. He doesn't seem to care, and nor does anyone else. But if Regina kills someone in defense, it's "oh no she's going to turn dark again! It would be terrible if she went evil. It's not like we have the Darkest Dark One to Ever Dark in our town!" Seriously - how many times has Rumple sold the entire town out to the Big Bad?

The only thing I can think of is that when Rumple goes "Dark" the townsfolk are collateral damage and when Regina goes "Evil" she targets the Charmings and the town to punish them.  Maybe they are weighing motivations and self interest.  I do recall times where the townsfolk wanted string up outsiders. 

[Rumsy4]

15 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Zoso wanted Rumpel to kill and free him. 

Zoso was enslaved by a king. Rumple, on the other hand, had control of the Dagger (except when Zelena took it). He wanted to live forever with lots of Power and just never die. When he sacrificed himself to kill Pan, it was becasue he felt it was the only choice he had to save his son and Belle. He lost the little humanity he had after Neal died. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

Zoso was enslaved by a king. Rumple, on the other hand, had control of the Dagger (except when Zelena took it). He wanted to live forever with lots of Power and just never die. When he sacrificed himself to kill Pan, it was becasue he felt it was the only choice he had to save his son and Belle. He lost the little humanity he had after Neal died. 

What I meant is right now.  He spent a bunch of time traveling with Belle to find a way to become mortal.  He wants to reunite with Belle now. 

Is he just playing the odds that there is no chance of joining Belle if he passes on the Dark Curse and some chance if he breaks it without passing it on.

[Rumsy4]

37 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

What I meant is right now.  He spent a bunch of time traveling with Belle to find a way to become mortal.  He wants to reunite with Belle now. 

Is he just playing the odds that there is no chance of joining Belle if he passes on the Dark Curse and some chance if he breaks it without passing it on.

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. I suppose if he transfers the "Power" to the Guardian, they won't become the next Dark One. And he would have gotten rid of the Darkness the "right way".

It pisses me off that that's what Killian's sacrifice would've accomplished, without any of the Guardian nonsense. 

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

What I don't understand is that everyone is totally fine with Rumple continuing to be evil, but Regina is held to some standard.

I guess the difference is that nobody but Belle really cares about Rumple. Also, she's the only one under the delusion that Rumple has a good heart. The others are indifferent until they need his help, or he betrays them. It's not like they can really do anything to stop the Dark One. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I guess the difference is that nobody but Belle really cares about Rumple. Also, she's the only one under the delusion that Rumple has a good heart. The others are indifferent until they need his help, or he betrays them. It's not like they can really do anything to stop the Dark One. 

Yeah, I really wonder what everyone was thinking in that scene from "Heartless", after Gold threatened the town with the water from the River of Dead Souls.

Everyone is sitting around the kitchen table.

EMMA: You don't seem shocked that Gold brought some of this back and gave it to the queen.

BELLE: I'm not. He's not acting like the man he could be. 

No one says anything to that.  

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He's not acting like the man he could be. 

That felt like such a cringe-worthy line for some reason, maybe because it was so...basic (and not in the "Ya basic" sense). That sentiment could apply to any human being on earth. But not the Dark One.

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

No one says anything to that.  

What can one say to that level of self-delusion? lol

[ParadoxLost]

28 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. I suppose if he transfers the "Power" to the Guardian, they won't become the next Dark One. And he would have gotten rid of the Darkness the "right way". 

I forgot all about the Guardian.  When was the last time they mentioned that? 

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I forgot all about the Guardian.  When was the last time they mentioned that? 

Not in several episodes.

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I forgot all about the Guardian.  When was the last time they mentioned that? 

The last time was in the Previously's for the winter finale, "The Eighth Witch":

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

What I don't understand is that everyone is totally fine with Rumple continuing to be evil, but Regina is held to some standard. Nobody bats an eye if Rumple murders someone. He doesn't seem to care, and nor does anyone else. But if Regina kills someone in defense, it's "oh no she's going to turn dark again! It would be terrible if she went evil. It's not like we have the Darkest Dark One to Ever Dark in our town!"

I'm trying to remember, who has Regina killed since season one? She killed Graham, but was there anyone else in the present? Mostly, she makes threats or stands by while others kill. She stood by Cora while she killed. She talked big in Neverland, but I don't remember her killing anyone. She talked big about Zelena but didn't kill her. She talked about wanting to kill Marian but didn't. Her hanging with the Queens of Darkness amounted to Mean Girls pranks. She didn't do anything in 5A. Zelena killed Hades in 5B. I guess the only one she actually killed was the Count of Monte Cristo, but it was pretty obvious that she was doing that to protect the Charmings and not in a magical fit of rage. Killing the Charmings in the Wishverse was treated as an oops. Nobody reacted to either of these like they thought she was going to go evil. It's when she doesn't get her way about something that people start walking on eggshells around her, like when she was upset about Marian being alive still or about Robin's death.

I think the difference is that Regina comes across as a lot more volatile. She got into evil in a fit of inappropriate vengeance, so maybe they're always worried that she's going to flip out and go evil again when something doesn't go her way. Rumple is a lot more deliberate. He doesn't usually fly off the handle in a fit of rage (or hides it from others when he does). His plots tend to be long and complicated.

Really, it's crazy that either of them are tolerated, given their history. You'd think Rumple would have been dumped outside the town line when he was weak and dying. That would have taken care of that. But he has plot Kevlar.

[KingOfHearts]

Graham's was the only major character death that felt like a natural conclusion to a character's arc. Neal, Robin, and Belle were all a case of, "we're bored of this character, so let's get rid of them". All three of them were victims of the writers' disinclination to explore the juicy stuff. Neal's relationship with Rumple and his stepmom, his parenting of Henry, and his reaction to Captain Swan all would have been interesting avenues to go down. It was nice having a "realist" character to give Emma someone to relate to, as far as reacting to the fairy tale shenanigans goes. For Robin, there was still a ton to mine. He was dating the woman who was against everything he stood for, he found out his girlfriend murdered his wife, Zelena came back as his wife, Zelena raped him, he had a daughter with his rapist, and the rapist is his girlfriend's sister. Oh, Roland and the Merry Men were in there somewhere too. Going forward, we should have seen the awkward custody agreement with Zelena go into action, as well as his him struggling to leave his life of thievery in order to better assimilate with the town. For Belle, her tragedy is that the writers never had any interest in her as an individual character. She never got to do anything outside of Rumple. We never saw her pursuing independence for more than five minutes.

Now we've got Victoria, who was yet another character who got killed by the writers' boredom. She still had her relationships with her daughters to mend and a score to settle with Gothel. I'm not saying she was an engaging character I wanted to see more of, but again, she's only dead because of A&E's "next shiny thing" mentality. Lost proved with Nikki and Paolo that you can have unpopular characters and still give them satisfying deaths.

Edited March 9, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Now we've got Victoria, who was yet another character who got killed by the writers' boredom. She still had her relationships with her daughters to mend and a score to settle with Gothel. I'm not saying she was an engaging character I wanted to see more of, but again, she's only dead because of A&E's "next shiny thing" mentality. 

They seemed to shift away from Victoria early, and even before Season 7 started airing, so I think they got bored with her early on.  I wonder if killing her off was affected by the viewers' response, though.  Even though the acting was so weak, I agree that as a character, there were still places for Victoria to go.

What surprised me about Robin Hood was that they didn't kill him off earlier, since they were already bored of him by the end of 4A.  They spent another season and a half NOT mining all the things they did to him.  By 5B, I thought the ship had already sailed and it was basically too late to explore the character.  With Neal, they only wasted half a season with him before cutting him loose.  Maybe it was because of the popularity of Outlaw Queen that made them delay writing Robin out.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Maybe it was because of the popularity of Outlaw Queen that made them delay writing Robin out.  

I'm pretty sure they were also using him as a vehicle for Zelena's return and wanted the angst over the baby.

[PixiePaws1]

Ye gods!! I am watching the BTS special that aired sometime around s4.

I am hearing from Ginnie that MM was a bit of a doormat...if only she knew what was to come ...!

I am hearing JMo say that thanks to Eduardo they get to wear amazing costumes (tell that to pregnant/post pregnant MM!)

I am hearing Eddie say that they thought about how awful it would be to be the EQ who never got a happy ending..(mass murder and rape? No biggie.) 

I am hearing Sean rave about how much Regina is loved on Twitter....while that same horrendous sub  group of rabid fans is trying to get him fired.

 

*sigh*

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 11:05 PM, Camera One said:

What surprised me about Robin Hood was that they didn't kill him off earlier, since they were already bored of him by the end of 4A.  They spent another season and a half NOT mining all the things they did to him.  By 5B, I thought the ship had already sailed and it was basically too late to explore the character.  With Neal, they only wasted half a season with him before cutting him loose.  Maybe it was because of the popularity of Outlaw Queen that made them delay writing Robin out.  

I think they felt they had to have a love interest for Regina but it didn't really interest them.  Its much easier to keep a love interest hanging around doing nothing than to drop the relationship and then feel pressure from whatever quarters (fans, actors, network, etc) to introduce the next love interest.

With Neal, it was fine to drop him because they already had Hook in place. 

Same thing went on with Belle but they just knocked her out whenever they didn't want to reenact Beauty and the Beast.

[KingOfHearts]

Robin was just a stand-in to keep Regina "happy" for a while until they were ready to drag the carpet out from underneath her again. The wanted to "explore" (I use that term loosely) what it would be like for her to be in a steady relationship.

Edited March 15, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that was more about laziness.  Making them the most recognizable version imbues characteristics from other adaptations and short cuts needing to take an effort to develop the character.

 

36 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers want audience members to "fill in the blanks" with their own pre-OUAT knowledge of the character. S1 handled this well when, in the first episode, you needed to do that to understand what was going on in the Pilot. But later, Snow's story got fleshed out in such a way that it still made sense with what we already saw.

 

It is a shortcut and lazy but it's a crutch they really needed.  A lot of their "A&E Originals" were the worst.  The Black Fairy, for example.  Greg and Tamara.   Without the bad CGI blue hair, Hades would have really lacked much identity.  Some of their major successes, like Cruella, were good because they embodied the cartoon version.   When they tried to move away from Disney, we got someone like Rapunzel from "The Tower" and her exciting villain, Herself.  Or Megara aka Random Damsel #815.

It's true a lot of their adaptation characters were bad as well, but Jasmine and Aladdin would have been even more bland if they were No Name Princess and pauper.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's true a lot of their adaptation characters were bad as well, but Jasmine and Aladdin would have been even more bland if they were No Name Princess and pauper.

Characters like Cruella were successful because the writers focused more on their nature and not so much the details. While Cruella's story was vastly different from 101 Dalmatians, she was still a psycho who wanted to skin dogs. But for Aladdin and Jasmine, while their backgrounds were similar, the nature of the characters was not. Jasmine in the movie wanted to escape her royal duties, but in OUAT, her duties are all she can think about. Disney!Aladdin wasn't a cowardly thief - he also gave what he stole to starving children and aspired to be something more. Aladdin on the show, however, didn't care about anyone else and got forced into doing something. In the cartoon, he was energetic and optimistic. In the show, he was stiff and aimless.

[Mabinogia]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Robin was just a stand-in to keep Regina "happy" for a while until they were ready to drag the carpet out from underneath her again. The wanted to "explore" (I use that term loosely) what it would be like for her to be in a steady relationship.

They could have had a decent story there if they'd bothered, with Regina constantly worried that she wasn't good enough for the heroic Robin. I always kind of wanted to see Regina fall for a good guy and have to confront the horrible person she was and feel inadequate because the person she loved was so good. But instead they changed Robin to fit Regina when it should have been the other way around.

But then, there have been so many times when I felt they could have really gotten into Regina's psychology and they just had everyone forgive her and boost her ego. About 85% of my Regina love was always for the story the COULD have told with her. the other 15% was her wardrobe.

[tennisgurl]

17 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But for Aladdin and Jasmine, while their backgrounds were similar, the nature of the characters was not. Jasmine in the movie wanted to escape her royal duties, but in OUAT, her duties are all she can think about. Disney!Aladdin wasn't a cowardly thief - he also gave what he stole to starving children and aspired to be something more.

Aladdin and Jasmine and their story is one of the egregious of A&Es tendency to take classic characters, give them their classic outfit, and then just make them utterly bland or unlikable, and still expect the audience to love them just because we know them from better stuff. Aladdin and Jasmine in the show not only had nothing to do with their characterization from the movie, but their story had nothing to do with their movie selves, other than Jeffar being an asshole. There was no pop culture loving Genie who wants freedom, no lovable tiger sidekick, no silently snarky flying carpet, no thief with a heart of gold monkey with a cute hat. That, combined with Aladdin and Jasmine being stripped of all their likable qualities, takes all the fun and charm out of their story, and leaves us with nothing.

[superloislane]

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

But instead they changed Robin to fit Regina when it should have been the other way around.

Very true - and it could have been so interesting. I remember they even had Robin equate his past thieving days (and all we knew about that was that he stole horses from Marian's family one time and then gave them back when she chased him) with Regina's village slaughtering and cursing days and that's why they understand each other. I'm pretty sure he even claimed that he's the one who had to change for the better in that relationship because I remember being annoyed at something he said like that

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, superloislane said:

I'm pretty sure he even claimed that he's the one who had to change for the better in that relationship because I remember being annoyed at something he said like that

When you feel you have to live up to the ethical standards of the Evil Queen you really need to sit down and reevaluate your life choices. It's a bit like saying you have to be a better person to be worthy of dating Hitler. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/14/2018 at 11:08 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Characters like Cruella were successful because the writers focused more on their nature and not so much the details. While Cruella's story was vastly different from 101 Dalmatians, she was still a psycho who wanted to skin dogs. But for Aladdin and Jasmine, while their backgrounds were similar, the nature of the characters was not.

I think they were still doing more or less okay in season four with Cruella. That season certainly had its issues, but it was rather focused compared to what came later. They were still mostly trying with the characters, and there were only a few characters they were really focused on, so they bothered developing the Frozen folks, Cruella, and Ursula. I guess they also sort of fleshed out Maleficent, except she got so shortchanged in critical areas and was just left hanging, so it's hard to consider her developed at all.

It was in season five when they really started just name dropping with the storybook characters. Instead of bothering to develop a character at all, it was like "hey, there's that famous character you know all about, so we don't have to tell you anything and you can just substitute what better writers have already told you." So we got things like Merida, where they got stuck on "angry Scot" with a few details from the movie, but otherwise she wasn't really the same character, she wasn't developed at all, and she could have been almost anyone without it making any difference in the plot. The Camelot characters had almost nothing to do with any version of that story, and if you changed their names, you wouldn't have even been able to figure out who they were supposed to be. In 5B, it got even worse, with all kinds of random stuff thrown in -- hey, it's Hercules and Megara! And Dorothy and Aunt Em! And we don't need to give you any backstory behind Hades and Zeus because you've seen the movie, right? They spun completely out of control in season 6 with the Untold Stories people. Aladdin and Jasmine were names and costumes. They weren't characters.

But I think the worst lazy writing and cribbing directly from something else and expecting the viewers to attach the emotion from the other thing to this but then taking the credit for writing something emotional was the Up rip-off, in which they mapped one of the most famous sequences in animated filmmaking onto characters and a situation that had absolutely nothing to do with it and nothing in common.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But I think the worst lazy writing and cribbing directly from something else and expecting the viewers to attach the emotion from the other thing to this but then taking the credit for writing something emotional was the Up rip-off, in which they mapped one of the most famous sequences in animated filmmaking onto characters and a situation that had absolutely nothing to do with it and nothing in common.

It shows A&E were getting better and better at their craft of cribbing.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

You know, something struck me watching the most recent episode. For all that the show has set up this vast fictional multiverse filled with so many different worlds made up of so many genres...they really dont seem all that different, do they? Most every land they go to are just variations of the original EF, but with a few astetic differences (Arendale was snowy, Scotland had mountains, Agraba had sand, even Wonderland sometimes seemed like the EF but with some weird clothes and trees, especially later on) and eventually, they all just started blending together anyway, until it was all basically one big, bland world of billions of trees and vaugly understood monarchies. In this episode, I truly had no clue where we were half the time, because every land they go to looks exactly alike now, and everyone acts alike, and there is no variety.  It never felt like we were actually exploring different worlds that had vastly different rules and orders than the EF, being from totally different genres. We never found a space opera universe where magic doesn't work but aliens can shoot lasers out of their eyes and breath in space, or a musical verse where everyone bursts into song every few hours, and no one there finds it odd, or an action movie world were the laws of physics seem to actually work different and cars keep blowing up every time you try to drive them, or even an urban fantasy style world where magic works, but the magic users of that world find the idea of life in an EF medieval style world to be quite undesirable compared to a normal modern life that just happens to also involve spells and magical creatures, and are just as likely to shoot a monster as use magic to fight it. Or even a really dark, disturbing crime or dark fantasy world where the genre is so deeply different than a fairy tale, that our gang cant even really function there, and its denizens cant even comprehend their happy endings or true lives kisses. There is so much that could be done with mixing genres this way, and for awhile, I thought thats what they were going to do, especially when they introduced Doctor Frankenstein's black and white horror movie world, which is still really the only world that really came across as truly different, and that this was a totally different universe with its own rules that were totally at odds with the EF, and where our heroes would have to get creative to succeed in. But nope. There were a few other attempts at showing different parts of the multiverse (the Land Without Stories, Cruellas eternally roaring 20s) and while I really liked those glimpses into what was really different, they would quickly get thrown away just to get back to the same old same old. We got one or two episodes in the 20s and in the B&W world, and the Land Without Stories was quickly tossed for more Regina nonsense. They couldn't even really bother to come up with just different cultures within their own fantasy genre. They kind of tried with Mulans vaugly Chinese nation, and Muridas Epcot Scotland, but, again, mostly just some location and costume changes, and its the same thing as always. Even this season, after setting up that other cultures have their own fairytales to introduce a Cinderella played for a Hispanic actress, its still just the same old story, just with more murder (positive representation?) and less interesting than the last time with blond Cinderella. Theres nothing about her story thats more specific to Latin American telling of the story (which there certainly are), and there arent even other Hispanic people in the plot! Colorblind casting in stories like these is fine, but when they specifically point out the "other cultures, other stories" thing, you expect there to be more changing than one characters race. Hell, I am still trying to figure out why she seems to be the only person in her country with a non English or American accent. Again, its nothing new. You could have done Cinderella with this actress in the first season, and it would have been the same thing, so why both? 

I think that really is one of my greatest disappointments of this show. They had potential to really play with genre and how different people from vastly different world relate to each other, and be really creative and fun, and maybe even explore some interesting concepts, and we got...the same damn forest every damn episode. Or, this season, bland Seattle neighborhood. Truly, the limits of their creativity knows no bounds. Its not like your owned by freaking Disney or anything so you basically have access to everything thats ever existed. Nope, lets just get back to blandness and not actually bothering to explain whats even in another world, or in the next country over. Its all basically the same! Its so nice that literally every story in existence is basically the same freaking thing. God, no wonder Issac went nuts. If I had to watch and record the exact same crap for all eternity, Id probably try to liven things up to. 

[Camera One]

Taking (part of) this post from spoilers:

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Wish Realm is so weird. It was introduced in a midseason finale where, other than with Wish!Robin, it seemed like it would be inconsequential.  (Like everything else on this show.) It's bizarre to me that an entire season later, it's still relevant. It wasn't setup as a game changer for the series. It was more like one of A&E's little AU detours....

It has to be confusing for viewers, both new and old, to see alternate versions of the characters with little acknowledgement that they're not who they look like.

I think it gained more importance and continued onto this season, solely because Jennifer Morrison didn't re-sign and they were forced to use Wish Hook as an explanation for why Colin was still on the show.  Only Wish Hook is from the Wish Realm... everyone else is either from the Original Storybrooke/Enchanted Forest, or from the Disenchanted Forest. 

What surprised me was that they completely glossed over and never acknowledged the fact that the Wish Realm was created in Season 6 and shouldn't have a history of Wish characters leaving to go to other realms before the Wish Realm even existed.

I do wonder if they did already plan to bring Sean Maguire back for a short arc when they came up with the Wish Realm, as a way of giving The Evil Queen her happy ending and making it seem like Page 23 was true all along.  

Though if they had planned Wish Robin + Evil Queen all along, why did they insist that Wish Snowing were fake, complete with analogy that a book on the shelf was real but the characters inside were fake? 

Overall, I think we can all agree that to the Writers, what WAS inconsequential was Emma's role in the Wish Realm and thus the killing of her Wish parents were supposed to mean nothing and no one should care about the abandoned Wish Henry either.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

And, I mean, technically I guess if WHook ever mildly annoyed Regina, she could just kill him like she did WSnow and WCharming. Because if they weren't real so it didn't count, why is he real? Or WRobin, or WRegina? Its almost like they changed everything about the story instantly when they realized that they wanted to do the Evil Queen thing, and bring Robin back, and didn't think about it for more than three seconds. 

But, I guess it served them right for being such boring lamo heroes, right? I bet they never said anything sassy after killing someone. And that stupid loser Princess Emma who picked flowers and sang wasn't at all a #strongfemalecharacter like bold, audacious Regina. Because, as we all know, a strong badass woman is always an asshole who treats people like crap and sometimes murders people when they annoy her. And I guess screw WHenry as well, who is now all alone with no family left to run a kingdom as a teenager, while murderous psychopath WRegina gets her happy ending. But, he probably hasn't even seen Star Wars, so he isn't really Henry, so screw him. Basically, the "cool" characters are allowed to be treated like people, but those loser "heroes" are just paper dolls that can be used, abused, and then thrown away. We got it. I think we`ve gotten that for a long time. 

[KingOfHearts]

I hope S7 doesn't get a lot of undeserved hate just because Emma, Snow, and Charming aren't there. It's definitely got clear issues (unlikable mains and nonsensical timelines), but I wouldn't go as far to say it's the season that never happened. It's not boring. It's bad, clunky, and I have zero emotional stakes in it, but it's not boring. The writers have stretched their creative muscles a little bit more than they did in S6. There's still a lot of the same crap, but the fresh coat of paint helps. It's closer to "so bad it's funny" than to "so bad it's offensive". I'd rather discuss the pitfalls of "A Taste of the Heights" over "Ill-Boding Patterns" any day. As cheap and superfluous it is, it doesn't feel as dead as the last season. (At least now it doesn't. The first few episodes of S7 were boring as tar. I'd argue it's gotten to its own little groove a bit.) 

I don't know. My opinion will probably change by the finale. I just don't want S7 to get completely written off as the worst season ever that should be stripped from everyone's headcanon. It's not the devil's magnum opus.

Edited March 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree Season 7 is not offensive, and to me, it really is more "so bad it's funny".  I'm not sure if the hate is undeserved, though, since the shoddiness of worldbuilding and characterization clearly knows no bounds with these guys.  And it may be boring to a lot of people who quit in droves. 

I do agree the reason this season is bad is not because of the lack of Emma, Snow and Charming.  We saw in Season 6 that they had no idea how to write for those three except further destroy the integrity of their characters or put them to sleep, literally.  In many ways Season 6 was so bad it was offensive because in their thirst to continue delivering the twists, they further damaged the original characters and the original premise.  

Weirdly, I enjoy talking about this show whether it's good or bad.  I'm finding the discussions just as enjoyable this year (even the weekend of food trucks and beignets), maybe moreso since the hope/hurt is gone since I don't really care about any of the characters that are left, and we can just laugh at how nonsensical it all is.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I agree Season 7 is not offensive, and to me, it really is more "so bad it's funny". 

I think S7 had the potential to be very offensive, since it tampers with the happy endings S6 provided. But so far, I've been pretty fine with it.

Quote

  I'm not sure if the hate is undeserved, though, since the shoddiness of worldbuilding and characterization clearly knows no bounds with these guys.  And it may be boring to a lot of people who quit in droves. 

It definitely deserves hate, but not for being a tacked on season or lacking certain characters. The worldbuilding and character writing is what needs to be called out for the garbage it is.

Quote

Weirdly, I enjoy talking about this show whether it's good or bad.  I'm finding the discussions just as enjoyable this year (even the weekend of food trucks and beignets), maybe moreso since the hope/hurt is gone since I don't really care about any of the characters that are left, and we can just laugh at how nonsensical it all is.

I like the odd quirks, such as the literal coat hangers or the food truck legalities. They make it more memorable, in a laughable sort of way. They're like an assortment of inside jokes only us on these boards would snicker at. The show gets dramatically more watchable when the expectations get taken away. The transition from S6 to S7 did that. In a sense, getting rid of Emma, Snow, Charming, Belle, and Original!Hook made it less disappointing.

Edited March 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Season 6 was extremely offensive, and I still regret having watched it. But in a way, Season 7 has helped remove some of the bitter taste. I hadn't originally intended to watch this season, but the WHook storyline pulled me in. The fact that Emma and Hook would be spared from further character destruction was a huge reason I continued watching. If it had been a case of Hook being cursed to stay in HH, separated from Emma, I would not have watched it. Added to that, frankly, I enjoy making fun of the Show and its writing here. 

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It definitely deserves hate, but not for being a tacked on season or lacking certain characters. The worldbuilding and character writing is what needs to be called out for the garbage it is.

I think that's the key. Season 7 had potential, but it didn't live up to the potential.

It could have been interesting to pursue the idea of the next generation, to see how someone like Henry, who had a weird upbringing in a cursed town so that he was from modern America but certainly not normal, and finding out that his grandparents were Snow White and Prince Charming actually made his world make a lot more sense, would find his own place in the world. But adult Henry, as written, is an incredibly boring and bland character with no agency, no drive, and who does almost nothing.

It could have been interesting to pursue the cultural variants on the common fairy tales, but the Latina Cinderella is just a name, a costume, and an accent. The parts of the Cinderella story they used are right out of the Disney version, so it's not a cultural variant, and she ends up having nothing about her that's really "Cinderella."

It could have been interesting to echo season one with a new curse and then use the characters' (and viewers') knowledge of the original curse to create red herrings and twists, but all they seem to be doing is expecting us to map curse 1 onto this, with no new development. Lucy doesn't have the stakes that season one Henry had. We still don't know why she believed in the curse or thought that Henry's book was true. She's done no investigation. She didn't even figure out for herself who the people out of her book were (as far as we know, she's only figured out Regina. She hasn't managed to clue into the fact that the British-sounding one-handed guy named Rogers might be Captain Hook).

Meanwhile, the world building is an utter mess, with events happening involving Wish Realm people before the Wish Realm was created, but intersecting with other realms, so it's not the backstory created by the wish, and then there's the crazy timeline and aging issues.

Really, it's a lot of the same problems as we had in season six, with the storybook characters amounting to "Hi, I'm [character]," poor continuity, and no real momentum. The difference is that it mostly involves new characters we don't care much about, but that also means that characters we care about aren't being assassinated by the bad writing. We don't care as much, but we also aren't as angry. We cared that Emma totally and inexplicably lost faith in Hook or that the Charmings saw young Emma and didn't go to her, and that made us angry with the writers for creating those dumb scenarios. We don't really care whether or not Jacinda rejects Henry or whether a flashback reveals that Robyn did something awful, so it's not as bad as some of the season six stuff, like the murder of David's dad, the Charmings having the chance to reach young Emma, etc.

[kingshearte]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It definitely deserves hate, but not for being a tacked on season or lacking certain characters. The worldbuilding and character writing is what needs to be called out for the garbage it is.

Speaking as someone who has not watched any of it since the second episode (but who inexplicably continues ot hang around these conversations), I haven't hated it because it's lacking certain characters. I was more or less completely indifferent to it because it lacked any of the characters I'd grown to care about. So I quit watching after seeing the last of the characters I did care about, and nothing I've seen, heard, or read since then has made me care enough to start again. As a separate show, maybe it has as much merit as some of the later seasons of the main show, but as something that's ostensibly part of the original, I simply don't care enough about it in that context to hate it.

[tennisgurl]

I dont really hate this season, in the way that I've hated other seasons, especially when they went so hard on the Regina praising and the victim blaming of the Charmings and her other victims, and there are some times when I feel like some of the writers and actors are actually trying again, and not just going through the motions like last year. And while I was less interested in watching a season without the characters I really love, I was willing to give them a shot. But I am mostly just bored at this point, and sad about the loss of potential. The characterization and world building is so half assed, that I cant really be bothered to care much. I dont hate this season, and I think it deserves to be acknowledged with the rest of the show, it just seems...pointless. 

[Rumsy4]

I saw a gifset on tumblr of the scene where Mary Margaret interrupts Captain Swan pancake time to plan the wedding. MM shows Emma a wedding planning album she's been putting together for Emma ever since the first Dark Curse broke, apparently (no clue when she had the time). And then, the very same episode, the writers have her actually open her mouth and suggest GRANNY'S DINER as the perfect spot for Emma's wedding. A whole album of ideas years in the making, and that grimy little eatery was the best location a mother could think of for her only daughter's wedding. 

We've discussed how the writers never bother to check up on previous episodes to maintain continuity. It's obvious they stopped thinking beyond the scene they were writing in Season 6. Or even to think of the characters speaking the words. It's like they rearranged generic lines of dialogue mad lib style based on set location.  

Edited March 23, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

41 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I saw a gifset on tumblr of the scene where Mary Margaret interrupts Captain Swan pancake time to plan the wedding. MM shows Emma a wedding planning album she's been putting together for Emma ever since the first Dark Curse broke, apparently (no clue when she had the time). And then, the very same episode, the writers have her actually open her mouth and suggest GRANNY'S DINER as the perfect spot for Emma's wedding. A whole album of ideas years in the making, and that grimy little eatery was the best location a mother could think of for her only daughter's wedding. 

To the Writers, that was just a meaningless scene to fill time.  They knew Emma would have a rushed wedding minutes before they all die.  The Writers rarely write from the perspective of what the character's natural response would be.  They knew the wedding planning stuff would be unimportant so they didn't bother developing it.

[KingOfHearts]

Granny's was overrused, imo. I get that it was supposed to be the main hangout for Snowing's inner circle, but literally everything would happen there. Coronations, villain standoffs, funeral wakes, trips to Camelot, secret hero meetings, secret villain meetings, make-out sessions in the bathroom hallway. Storybrooke is small but it's not that small. There are other restaurants and event venues. S1-4A, there was some variety. 4B onward, the town ceased to feel like a living, breathing place. It was maybe 6 or 7 places on repeat.

Edited March 23, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Granny's was overrused, imo. 

Not as overused as Main Street with everyone walking side by side to lose miserably to the latest villain of the month.

[KingOfHearts]

46 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Not as overused as Main Street with everyone walking side by side to lose miserably to the latest villain of the month.

Well to be fair, Granny's is on main street.

[Camera One]

Granny's has been re-built on their backlot set, so that explains why they over-use it so much.  The number of Storybrooke permanent sets they have could be counted on a hand, which is part of the reason why Storybrooke always felt so small.  Though I suppose that's the case with most shows, to only have a few permanent sets.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Camera One