A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[kingshearte]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Maybe I have more imagination than what they expect of the average viewer, but I don't really have a problem imagining that someone took their coat off upon coming indoors without having to actually see it happen if in an outdoor scene they were wearing a coat and then the next time we see them, they're indoors and not wearing a coat. You only need to show them removing coats if the scene shows them coming inside, and then I don't see how it takes away from the scene for the overall scene action to include someone taking off a coat while they're talking. The only one where that's an issue is with Hook, where it might be awkward getting the coat off over the hook, and would take more time, plus the shirt under the coat might not be modified the way the coat is to hide the fact that the hook is over a hand rather than replacing it. But, even there, it might have been nice if they'd occasionally shown that a hook isn't a perfect replacement for a hand and let us see him struggle with something or let us see what his coping mechanisms are.

Heck, you don't even have to show most of it. Character A walks in wearing coat. Cut to Character B while they say something. Cut back to Character A who is no longer wearing a coat. If B's line was really short, A can still be hanging the coat up. Or the entire action could be completed outside of our sightlines. We're all smart enough to figure out what happened, even if we don't see it.

And good point about Hook's coat being a little more troublesome. I think an occasional shot of Emma casually sliding Hook's coat off for him while one or the other of them talks would have been a perfectly lovely way to deal with that while subtly acknowledging both his lack of hand and their relationship.

[Shanna Marie]

I just realized -- they have no problem making major events that progress the plot happen offscreen, like Emma realizing that Rumple is up to something right then with the hat that requires her to rush into town and find Hook with Rumple in the library tower, without showing anything more than suggesting that Anna was about to tell them that Rumple lied about not having met her, but God forbid they don't connect the dots onscreen between a person wearing a coat outdoors and not wearing a coat the next time we see them indoors.

It's possible that this mindset explains everything wrong with this show.

[Mitch]

I went back to Rotten Tomatoes to see the reviews for the pilot of Season 1. Many of the critics picked up on problems that were going to become glaring holes in succeeding seasons and has put a stake it the heart of this weird season.  Critics pointed out the two show runners past of "illogical writing" ...the "odd rift between tone and subject matter"...the bad CGI (which was just used in the EF so it was okay, but whoah when magic came to SB..) as in ..."Hopefully, the creatures and CGI touches are kept to a minimum so the story can shine through instead of being tarnished by unnecessary smoke and sparkles." Some picked up on Gilmore's "over earnest and cloying" acting ..(haha, wait till they see the new girl...) and finally..to "draw out the story by looping it through subplots and minidramas runs the risk of turning it into a fairy-tale soap opera." and another critic worrying that Storybrooke Maine will really turn out to be Pine Valley PA! (which actually the drama  created by the over the top fantasy...when treated realistically in context between the characters and the famiies is/was my favorite part of the show. The one thing that most of the critics like was the acting of the five adult leads and the supporting characters. Too bad this year we don't even have that.

Anyway it is obvious that the showrunners did not read those initial reviews as they doubled down on all of it. And the show unfortunatley lost all its charm on the way.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mitch

[kingshearte]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I just realized -- they have no problem making major events that progress the plot happen offscreen, like Emma realizing that Rumple is up to something right then with the hat that requires her to rush into town and find Hook with Rumple in the library tower, without showing anything more than suggesting that Anna was about to tell them that Rumple lied about not having met her, but God forbid they don't connect the dots onscreen between a person wearing a coat outdoors and not wearing a coat the next time we see them indoors.

It's possible that this mindset explains everything wrong with this show.

I had that thought while I was writing my post. As you said, major developments can happen offscreen, but if someone takes a coat off offscreen, the audience will be completely lost and confused!

In fact, it probably happened once. Someone took a coat off, but we didn't see it, and since then, nothing has made sense. If only we'd seen that coat removal, everything would be so much clearer.

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, kingshearte said:

As you said, major developments can happen offscreen, but if someone takes a coat off offscreen, the audience will be completely lost and confused!

Also, we're supposed to understand that Henry is keeping in touch with Emma via magical Skype offscreen, in spite of the fact that we've never seen it and it's never been referred to, and Emma acted like she hadn't seen him at all since he left home when she came in response to his message, but we won't be able to handle it if a character is wearing a coat outdoors and then isn't wearing that coat in a subsequent indoor scene.

On 1/25/2018 at 12:05 PM, kingshearte said:

I think an occasional shot of Emma casually sliding Hook's coat off for him while one or the other of them talks would have been a perfectly lovely way to deal with that while subtly acknowledging both his lack of hand and their relationship.

I think the fact that they never did anything like that is why I never had a problem with the idea of Hook getting his hand back as any kind of disrespect to disabled people. It's not as though they used him as disability representation by showing how he accommodated. A hook isn't a perfect replacement for a hand, and it would come with issues of its own. But they seemed to forget in writing that he only had one hand, and the few times when we got to see his coping mechanisms seemed to have come from Colin trying to figure out how to do things that were in the script that would be impossible without two hands, like the tying the bandage with his teeth. I'm trying to remember, wasn't there something about how Colin had to come up with a way to shuffle cards one-handed, or was the one-handed shuffle written into the script? Even if it was written that way, it did sound like he had to figure out a way to do it and practice it so he could make it work.

It's even worse with Rogers, where they've alluded to him having a fake hand, but it works like a real one, to the point he might as well have a real hand. And with no mention of how he lost the hand. At least Hook Prime had a story. How does Rogers think he lost a hand?

[Camera One]

I feel like the other reason for never taking off the coats is the characters are usually about to go somewhere else on yet another wild goosechase.  They're usually just taking a break giving a recap of what they just did, moaning about how hopeless the situation is, convincing each other it's too dangerous, declaring that they/love/good will always win, or explaining the next MacGuffin that they're going to look for which will turn out to be completely useless, pointless and inconsequential.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

S3 as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts. None of the episodes are truly outstanding, save for the finale and perhaps Good Form. It harbored what other seasons lacked - stability. The good would often weigh the bad down to an equilibrium. Most of the 3A episodes are boring, but the character-focused writing and the cliffhanger ending make up for it. 3B handled Zelena and The Missing Year poorly, but the finale was truly its saving grace. However, with all that mind, there was still a certain "magic" to the season that really put it above the rest for me. I'm not sure why. Although it was, in my opinion, when the characters reached their apex in development and writing quality.

Gosh. S4 ruined everything. I didn't start watching until 3B, so I didn't get the same 2B disappointment others did. S4 is my 2B.

Edited January 27, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

However, with all that mind, there was still a certain "magic" to the season that really put it above the rest for me. I'm not sure why. Although it was, in my opinion, when the characters reached their apex in development and writing quality.

It is the same for me. Objectively, I feel that Season 1 was more well-written and scripted more tightly than Season 3. But Season 3 had a special magic to it. At least, the first half plus the season finale did. By 3B the Show was already on the downhill slide. 3A is when I started getting truly obsessed with the Show and characters. Everything after that has just been me trying to desperately cling on to the hope that the Show would reclaim that magic, even while knowing it was never going to happen. That's the whole theme of this Show--desperate clinging on to false hope. 

[Camera One]

Sadly, for me, I didn't get to experience three seasons of full enjoyment. By 3B, the lost potential and the refusal of the Writers to explore the relationship between Emma and her parents, and Emma as an individual (aside from her romantic entanglements) was so glaring that a big part of the magic was lost.  

In terms of Emma herself, her scenes with Elsa in 4A stood out to me more than anything her character was given in Season 3 aside from "Lost Girl" with Snow.  

So overall for me, Season 2 onwards was when this show became one of some great scenes mixed in with mediocrity.  Until the Season 5 finale.  From then on, there weren't even one or two good scenes and the show became a completely hollow shell of its former self.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In terms of Emma herself, her scenes with Elsa in 4A stood out to me more than anything her character was given in Season 3 aside from "Lost Girl" with Snow.  

Then Elsa was never mentioned again, except for that one time by Ariel in her random 4B cameo. I love how we're supposed to imagine Charming was good friends with Kristoff, that Elsa and Emma were besties, and that Anna had so many Misthaven connections. It's as if 4A never happened. But uh... Sven was in the S6 finale! Continuity, am I right?

Edited January 27, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

For me, in a show of "moments", people/events never mentioned again doesn't detract from a particular scene or subplot which is well written and played.

But I totally agree that is definitely another pattern with this show.  They play with the Disney characters in their idiotic cul de sac, but 90% are never mentioned again, so what happens to them?  They fall into a gutter?   

Edited January 27, 2018 by Camera One

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Sadly, for me, I didn't get to experience three seasons of full enjoyment. By 3B, the lost potential and the refusal of the Writers to explore the relationship between Emma and her parents, and Emma as an individual (aside from her romantic entanglements) was so glaring that a big part of the magic was lost.  

In terms of Emma herself, her scenes with Elsa in 4A stood out to me more than anything her character was given in Season 3 aside from "Lost Girl" with Snow.  

So overall for me, Season 2 onwards was when this show became one of some great scenes mixed in with mediocrity.  Until the Season 5 finale.  From then on, there weren't even one or two good scenes and the show became a completely hollow shell of its former self.

This was basically my reaction to the show as well.

But for me the 3B mid season premiere was the worse "moment" of the entire series.  It was when I accepted that this show would never be really good again and at best it would have a few gems for episodes each season but that their wasn't much hope of them ever pulling together an engaging narrative that spanned more than an episode (or two parter). 

That was a nice winter break. Everyone was so hopeful for the story they set up for 3B.  Then they just wasted it.

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Until the Season 5 finale.  From then on, there weren't even one or two good scenes and the show became a completely hollow shell of its former self.

The Season 5 finale was when the writers completely gave up and turned the show into a farce. 

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

But for me the 3B mid season premiere was the worse "moment" of the entire series. 

I have very mixed feelings about 3x12. On one hand, I love Emma and Henry's NY life, the complication of a fiance, and Hook's attempts to jog Emma's memory. What I didn't like? The random potion that made Emma believe, pretty much everything about the flashbacks, and the quickie return to Storybrooke. It was stupid that Walsh got brushed off as nothing more than an evil monkey. It was the writers' way of saying, "We really don't care about what Emma was up to in the Missing Year. There's no such thing as reality in our universe! Fantasy rules!" Then later we found out Walsh wasn't as evil as we thought he was, nor was he always a monkey. The prospect of Emma dating someone and considering an engagement are very interesting for her character at the time. But, at the end of the day, it wasn't even an obstacle. It was more like a speed bump.

3x12 was very different from your average episode. Then the ending came, "JK! Everything's back to normal!"

This is an unpopular opinion, but I feel 3B did more harm than good for Emma's character arc. It had so much potential for her.

Edited January 28, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This is an unpopular opinion, but I feel 3B did more harm than good for Emma's character arc. It had so much potential for her.

I don't think it is an unpopular one. We found out that Snowing moved on pretty quickly from losing Emma and didn't bother to find her until they thought they needed her.  However, it was all a big fake-out just so St. Regina could save the day. Emma was not allowed to do anything useful. Instead, she kept repeating the "New York" mantra until it was beyond irritating. Her time-travel adventure was fun, but she ended up bringing Marian and Elsa back with her. 

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

We found out that Snowing moved on pretty quickly from losing Emma and didn't bother to find her until they thought they needed her. 

I think that also highlights how disinterested A&E were in Snowing. 

Regina got two episodes to pine over losing Henry in 3B, while Charming got one dream sequence about Emma, and Snow got none (I don't think either of them said a thing about being separated from Henry).  They were also uninterested in Snowing's decisions about becoming leaders again, how Snow felt about going back to her father's old palace, how they reacted to the "betrayal" of Aurora/Philip, etc. 

This pattern continued with 5A, where A&E decided not to bother giving Snowing any scenes with Dark Swan in Storybrooke.  And then in 5B, where the only person Snow met from her past was filler with Hercules while Charming had a few random scenes with his twin brother in the B plot of an episode about Regina, Zelena and Cora, while Regina got one whole episode with daddy and another one with mommy.

Given A&E wanted to kill Charming off in the pilot, I suppose that does explain their disinterest in the character.  You'd think finding out that the actor was able to bring some personality to a bland prince role would make a difference, but it really didn't (except slightly more in 3B when Ginny was off on maternity leave).

Since Snow was meant to be single and unattached in their original conception of the show, I'm guessing their interest in Snow would be in some love triangle, and not in her relationship with Emma.  For whatever reason, they (maybe based on J.J.'s advice, or on the network's notes, or they thought it was clever that both characters were not awake) did develop their friendship in Season 1, but I'm curious what made them drop it like a hot potato after 2A. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This pattern continued with 5A, where A&E decided not to bother giving Snowing any scenes with Dark Swan in Storybrooke. 

This still blows my mind, and not in a good way. The other egregious decision was to have David teach Regina of all people to dance, instead of having a single dance with his daughter, despite his 3B nightmare. But then, by Season 5, Regina had practically replaced Emma as Snowing's daughter and the protagonist of the series. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

But then, by Season 5, Regina had practically replaced Emma as Snowing's daughter and the protagonist of the series. 

I think she had already become the main protagonist by 2B.  The focus during Snow and Emma's welcome back party was on the exclusion of Regina and how bad it made her feel.  The half-season was framed around Regina faltering and trying to do the right thing, and the relationship with her mother.  Snow actually became a supporting prop to push Regina in one direction or the other, both in the flashbacks by not supporting Regina after seeing the dead villagers, and in the present-day by believing that Regina kidnapped Archie, and murdering Cora just when the mistreated, misguided woman had seen the light, and along with the other prop (Henry) being her cheerleader when she needed it most.  The finale was Regina finally deciding to sacrifice herself for the greater good.  I had no problem with exploring Regina's character.  But what angered me most was twisting other main characters into props instead of developing their identities and giving them their own arcs.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Sean Maguire gave a thanks on Twitter to this article saying they should bring Robin back before the Season 7 ends.  There are always lots of calls on Adam's Twitter about bringing him back no matter what Adam tweets about.

Which made me think... do you think Robin Hood had any more potential for growth on the show if he came back or if he had stayed for another season?  Do you see a role that he could have played in Season 6?  How about now?  Could Robin Hood coming back for 7B save the show?

Edited January 29, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Could Robin Hood coming back for 7B save the show?

Sure. I’m very curious to know how he and Clone Queen have been faring in the original EF, and if they have any kids. (Wow—if I were August, my nose would’ve grown a foot writing that sentence.)

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Sure. I’m very curious to know how he and Clone Queen have been faring in the original EF, and if they have any kids. (Wow—if I were August, my nose would’ve grown a foot writing that sentence.)

That's infinitely more interesting than whatever else is going on right now, imo.

[daxx]

They didn’t properly use Robin Hood either time they had him before, why would that change now?

[Shanna Marie]

On 1/28/2018 at 1:18 PM, Camera One said:

I think she had already become the main protagonist by 2B.  The focus during Snow and Emma's welcome back party was on the exclusion of Regina and how bad it made her feel.  The half-season was framed around Regina faltering and trying to do the right thing, and the relationship with her mother.  Snow actually became a supporting prop to push Regina in one direction or the other, both in the flashbacks by not supporting Regina after seeing the dead villagers, and in the present-day by believing that Regina kidnapped Archie, and murdering Cora just when the mistreated, misguided woman had seen the light, and along with the other prop (Henry) being her cheerleader when she needed it most.  The finale was Regina finally deciding to sacrifice herself for the greater good.  I had no problem with exploring Regina's character.  But what angered me most was twisting other main characters into props instead of developing their identities and giving them their own arcs.

This is one of those cases where I'd love to know what was going on behind the scenes with all this because it was such an abrupt shift. In 2A, Regina really was trying to change. She wasn't using magic, and Henry was very anti-magic with her. She saw it as a real dilemma when she had to use magic to save Henry from Zombie Daniel. The encounter with Zombie Daniel seemed to tell her that everything she'd done in his name wasn't something he'd have wanted. She was in therapy. Meanwhile, on the Team Princess side of the story, we were seeing the damage Regina had caused, the life Emma should have had but didn't. They were talking about how Regina was the one at fault. They set up how awful Cora was and how Regina wanted her dead. It looked like we were on track toward Regina realizing and admitting that she'd been in the wrong and genuinely changing. With Cora possibly coming to confront her, that could have led to Regina admitting that Cora, and not Snow, was the one responsible for Daniel's death.

And then it all abruptly changed with the end of 2A. Instead of Henry being outraged that she was using magic behind his back and trying to kill Snow and Emma as they returned, he treated her like she was a hero for stopping it. Regina was shown as a victim who was left out of dinner. Emma invited her to the potluck--in spite of having just been talking about how Regina was the one at fault for all that had happened. Regina sided with Cora, watched Cora commit cold-blooded murder, and was shown as a victim when Cora was killed. There was no more talk about how it was wrong for Regina to use magic, and there was no more mention of Regina in therapy (aside from when Cora posed as Regina to fake Archie's murder). Regina was shown to abruptly be a great hero because she was willing to sacrifice herself to stop the failsafe, with it being conveniently forgotten that she was the one who was about to use it to kill everyone else, and she was the one who destroyed the magic beans to keep everyone else from being able to escape. That was when they quit showing consequences, quit making Regina actually grow and develop as a character, quit allowing the other characters to respond rationally and like any normal human being would.

It makes you wonder what happened there, the change was so abrupt. Did they lose adult supervision? Did they fall so in love with Regina as a character that they couldn't bear to write her honestly and just wanted to make things good for her? I've joked that Lana Parilla got compromising photos of A&E with a goat, but it really wasn't great for her as an actress because it shortchanged all her character's growth and robbed her of what could have been some really juicy scenes. Then again, that's about when she started talking about making requests for her character and providing input, so maybe she fell in love with her own character and preferred to have wonderful things happen to the character over having good stuff to play as an actress.

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, daxx said:

They didn’t properly use Robin Hood either time they had him before, why would that change now?

Maybe now we can find the Robin Hood from some totally different interpretation of the story, considering the one we got was sacrificed on the Altar of Regina. Because apparently thats just something we can do now. 

I vote for the fox Disney version! 

[Shanna Marie]

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe now we can find the Robin Hood from some totally different interpretation of the story

Maybe one who actually is Robin Hood -- you know, robbing from the rich to feed the poor (for reals), and fighting against an unjust ruler, maybe even using the part of the story where he was a noble who had his lands stolen from him while he was away at war. The kind of guy who'd disguise himself to enter an archery contest and who wages an ongoing battle of wits against the sheriff. At least a bit of swashbuckling and swinging from the chandeliers is mandatory. And he should be in love with Maid Marian rather than ditching her for the kind of person he's supposed to be fighting against.

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I vote for the fox Disney version! 

At the very least, he should be a redhead, and they should make that an allusion to the Disney fox.

I would prefer not to have a return of wRobin, since that would mean an extra Regina. And we'd have yet another character who should be around 20 years older but who hasn't aged a day.

[Camera One]

Maybe Robin's daughter will play out her version of the Robin Hood story.  She was pure Robin Hood when she shot arrows at a stranger waiting at the gate.

I think it's too late to do anything interesting with the past Robin character at this point.  He wasn't even interesting when he was on the show.  His response to practically everything was not human.  

Edited January 30, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He wasn't even interesting when he was on the show. 

I was going to say, he was one of the most boring characters in the Show! And that's an achievement. The Wish version was somewhat better, from my hazy recollection of Season 6.

Unfortunately, they can't do much with Robyn (I'm going to continue spelling her name with a "y") at this point. 

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Unfortunately, they can't do much with Robyn (I'm going to continue spelling her name with a "y") at this point. 

I've been so tempted to do that.

[tennisgurl]

Robin had potential, and I think SM was quite charming when they gave him something to do other than moon over Regina and angst about his wife coming back from the dead. Sadly, that wasnt very often, and he very rarly, if ever, even acted like Robin Hood, so there turned out not to be much of a point to him. They might as well have just named him Jo Smith and be done with it. 

Really, that is the show in a nutshell. Had potential, but...

[Camera One]

I loved Sean Maguire in "Off Center", but for me, this character didn't have potential from the start and the actor couldn't overcome such a poorly conceived character.  Robin Hood needed to be established as a character in his own right before being named Regina's soulmate, but more importantly, the whole premise that Robin Hood knew of The Evil Queen in the Enchanted Forest and yet would fall in love with her was preposterous.  She was basically King John in female form, and opposite to everything he would have stood for.  Giving up on Marian so quickly in 4A and the crypt sex was just the final nail in the coffin.  There was no complexity to build from, unlike most of the other unfortunate folk who had been made regulars for a short time like Red or Neal... both of those had a lot of unresolved issues that could have led to interesting stories and growth.  If anything, the man with the lion tattoo should have been King John.  

Edited January 30, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

She was basically King John in female form, and opposite to everything he would have stood for.  Giving up on Marian so quickly in 4A and the crypt sex was just the final nail in the coffin. 

Is it sad that I actually thought they were going to have an interesting story for Robin in the 4th season? I genuinely believed that the Marian thing would develop him as a character. They could have had him be so happy to see his wife and mother of his child back from the dead, be angry at and feel betrayed by Regina for what she did to Marian but with the angst and 'complexity' of still having feelings for Regina which was tearing him apart. It would have also been a great opportunity for real redemption for Regina facing one of her victims and having the knowledge that she did something terrible to Robin who she supposedly loved. They could still have Emma feel bad slightly for throwing a wrench into Regina's relationship (but still be happy she saved someone) because Emma always feels bad about everything, without actually having the show itself reinforce this idea that she was totally wrong to do this and I wouldn't have lost my mind. 

I still can't believe what they actually did - he doesn't care at all what Regina did to his wife and never gets to have any kind of reaction to it at all, Regina gets to act like a victim and complains to Emma for half a season about not getting to murder Marian, CRYPT SEX while Marian was dying again, Snow advocating for Regina to sleep with the husband of the woman who died to protect her and of course...the Zarian reveal! I can't wrap my head around how awful all that was. It's like they saw all the interesting things that could have been done with it and purposely went in the complete opposite direction.

[KingOfHearts]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

If anything, the man with the lion tattoo should have been King John.  

You have no idea how much I would have loved to see Regina and the Sheriff of Nottingham together. The writers even implied he had some sort of offscreen redemption arc in S6.

Edited January 30, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

You have no idea how much I would have loved to see Regina and the Sheriff of Nottingham together. The writers even implied he had some sort of offscreen redemption arc in S6.

I really like the actor who played the Sheriff.  I think he could have had chemistry with Regina.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

You have no idea how much I would have loved to see Regina and the Sheriff of Nottingham together. The writers even implied he had some sort of offscreen redemption arc in S6.

I really wanted Regina to be paired with someone that she had a "War of the Roses" relationship with.  A literal, take cover, they are fighting again and might blow up Storybrooke dynamic balanced out by being equally passionately in love. 

That seemed more Evil Queen worthy than Robin standing around holding her purse.

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I really like the actor who played the Sheriff.  I think he could have had chemistry with Regina.

I liked him too, and I thought his brief scenes in Storeybrooke were interesting. He seemed like he really had given up villainy and was just trying to quietly live his life, which isn't how it goes with most villains on this show. The actor was quite good as well. Really, I think if they wanted to put Regina with someone, a fellow reformed villain would have been a good choice. Better than Robin, who she fell for because "destiny said so" or something. I think they also could have had more of a push and pull romance, with more passion. I never got passion from Robin and Regina (even when they were literally fucking next to corpses) and he seemed to just instantly become her doormat. It made their relationship seem really stale and dull, and never got why they were willing to give up so much and cross so many lines to be together. 

[superloislane]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

he seemed to just instantly become her doormat.

You just described all of Regina's relationships from season 3 on, romantic or otherwise

[KingOfHearts]

Here's a question for my fellow board-mates: Do you think the writers (namely A&E) ever checked out and started phoning it in? Obviously, the writing quality has greatly diminished over time. But was there a point where the writers stopped caring and didn't have the fire for their own artistic vision? IMO, this occurred at the end of S5. S6 was very much not what they were interested in writing. It's what I call the "half-assed fan service" season. "Oh you still want us to do Aladdin? I guess we better throw that in there. A musical episode? Not something we ever wanted to do, but we've got nothing better to do. Small town stories? Okay, but as long as we get to appease Evil Regals and Rumpbelle shippers too! Well, Captain Swan isn't getting any fresher. We'll come up with a quick wedding. Wait... people still want to know who the Black Fairy is?!" Even in 4B, as terrible as it was, you could tell the writers intended for it to be their magnum opus. 

As for S7, their excitement never went beyond an ethnic Cinderella riding a motorcycle.

Edited February 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I personally think they're full of it and still believe in their own hype.  To me, they're not checked out; they're just that incompetent and delusional.  This is going by what they say in their interviews and the fact that they actually tried to reboot and start their "magic" anew.  I do think, however, that they were bored of certain characters, and that happened by Season 4.  I do think they were just going through the motions whenever they *had* to use characters like Snowing.  

Edited February 1, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Here's a question for my fellow board-mates: Do you think the writers (namely A&E) ever checked out and started phoning it in? Obviously, the writing quality has greatly diminished over time. But was there a point where the writers stopped caring and didn't have the fire for their own artistic vision? IMO, this occurred at the end of S5. S6 was very much not what they were interested in writing. It's what I call the "half-assed fan service" season.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I personally think they're full of it and still believe in their own hype.  To me, they're not checked out; they're just that incompetent and delusional. 

IMO, Seasons 1-5 they were following an outline, vague though it was, that they'd had from the start (if that's thanks to Damon Lindelof or not is anybody's guess). Season 6 was them experimenting with their "real" vision: full blown Regina and Rumple apologism. They were just that incompetent in executing their horrible vision. So, there were two Reginas, Regina actually got to murder Snowing by crushing their hearts (talk about wish fulfillment, pun intended), one Regina got to be with Robin and rule in the EF, and the other Regina got to lord it over her various doormats, which now included the dwarfs. Rumple actually stalked, imprisoned, and terrorized his wife. And yet, he ultimately got to save the day, got the girl, and a do-over with his do-over baby. Oh, and it was Baelfire's fault all along. 

However, in Season 7, A&E actually checked out. It's obvious they don't give a sh*t. It's just an easy paycheck to them at this point.

[KingOfHearts]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

IMO, Seasons 1-5 they were following an outline, vague though it was, that they'd had from the start (if that's thanks to Damon Lindelof or not is anybody's guess). Season 6 was them experimenting with their "real" vision: full blown Regina and Rumple apologism. They were just that incompetent in executing their horrible vision. So, there were two Reginas, Regina actually got to murder Snowing by crushing their hearts (talk about wish fulfillment, pun intended), one Regina got to be with Robin and rule in the EF, and the other Regina got to lord it over her various doormats, which now included the dwarfs. Rumple actually stalked, imprisoned, and terrorized his wife. And yet, he ultimately got to save the day, got the girl, and a do-over with his do-over baby. Oh, and it was Baelfire's fault all along. 

S6 seemed to follow very broad strokes. It was extremely aimless, other than the Gideon subplot. Every episode tried to capture a different idea in the blandest ways possible. 

[Camera One]

In Season 6, it became clear they were out of ideas and they didn't know what more to do with the characters.  I thought they would have something up their sleeve for the final season (unless that was actually what we saw... that they actually wanted to have The Evil Queen return for the final season and felt it was a great way to wrap the show, which wouldn't be surprising either).  The Black Fairy and "The Final Battle" was obviously made up recently with minimal thought.  

I wonder if Season 6 was partly so bad because they were asked (by Dungey?) to do a full-season arc and they just couldn't do it.  They might have been able to come up with better stuff if we got two half-season arcs instead.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

I wonder if Season 6 was partly so bad because they were asked (by Dungey?) to do a full-season arc and they just couldn't do it.  They might have been able to come up with better stuff if we got two half-season arcs instead.

I very much regret ever complaining about half-season arcs. They're the only thing the writers can do consistently.

[Souris]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I very much regret ever complaining about half-season arcs. They're the only thing the writers can do consistently.

Half-season arcs are closer to their minuscule attention span than full-season arcs.

[CCTC]

I also have a feeling the flow of season 6 might have been due to some network input.  I suspect they were going to do the untold stories and the dual Regina's and then were told to work Aladdin in there.  It just further chopped up any dramatic flow -- every few episodes working in something related to Aladdin and the Savior curse of shaking hands.

They clearly moved some stuff around semi-last minute, because they were dropping hints about the Charming-Hook story in the summer as what was coming up and then it was pushed back to the second half of the season, and probably shortened.  They had made it seem like we  would see Hook and Charming interact for at least a few episodes before a dark secret was revealed.

They had a number of ideas going on [untold stories, EQ, Aladdin, Gideon/Black Fairy/Gold-Bell, Snow/Charming cursed Hook's secret, Emma;s shaking hand etc. Yhere was no flow because they would highlight one story one week and not get back to it for about month, and none of the plots were really developed or given the time and thought to make them compelling.  There were some good moments and even some decent episodes in the season - but the story arcs as a whole were half-baked and not well planned.

Edited February 1, 2018 by CCTC

[KingOfHearts]

50 minutes ago, CCTC said:

They clearly moved some stuff around semi-last minute, because they were dropping hints about the Charming-Hook story in the summer as what was coming up and then it was pushed back to the second half of the season, and probably shortened.  They had made it seem like we  would see Hook and Charming interact for at least a few episodes before a dark secret was revealed.

They did some major reshooting for the premiere, too. I remember watching that disjointed mess with some friends and thinking, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm making these people watch this with me. It's so bad." Everyone was confused and it didn't excite me at all. It was trying to introduce Aladdin, Gideon, LoUS, and Emma's tremors all in one episode. By far, it's the worst premiere to date.

Edited February 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Maybe Charming was going to find out that Hook killed his father in 6A in lieu of the Aladdin plot.  Hyde would probably have stuck around longer.  Maybe we would have gotten two more fillers with Paul Bunyan or some of those other random pages from the Untold Stories book.  

I'm guessing the dumb Gideon stuff was going to be done regardless, since they literally had nothing else for Rumple and Belle to do.  Ditto for Snowing sleeping away half their screentime.  I don't doubt that Emma's shaky hands would have gone forward without Aladdin, who really added nothing to that particular storyline.

If they had a Season 8, I wonder what's next...

Which mythology was your favorite?  I pick F.

A) The Dark One
B) The Author
C) The Sorcerer
D) The Savior
E) The Guardian

Edited February 1, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

I think that A&E are still pretty engaged this season, while last season, they clearly had stopped caring. While last season it felt like they were just checking things off a to do list, and were pretty bored, this season they seem quite excited about their new fanfic where they get to focus all on Regina, Rumple, and shiny new villains, and stop worrying about those "boring" heroes. On the other hand, I feel like the other writers were more engaged last year (to an extent) but this year, everyone but A & E seem to be on autopilot. The writers are so obviously half assing it, most of the actors look like their eyeing the craft service table off screen, and even the costume and set design people seem to be just doing this to get a quick paycheck before heading to greener pastures. Everyone but A&E seems bored out of their minds. I mean, to be fair to the actors, it must be hard to act when their characters are so thinly sketched, and some of them really are trying, but everyone just seems to be not into this. 

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The writers are so obviously half assing it

I don't know about that.  The Writer Brigitte Hales seems very stressed.  She's mentioned on Twitter when she hasn't had a night off for a long time and writing a lot under short deadlines.  I don't blame her since these Writers have to spin gold out of straw... actually worse than straw.   But I think she and the other Writers actually like the stories they're writing, from their interactions with one another.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

16 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I don't know about that.  The Writer Brigitte Hales seems very stressed.  She's mentioned on Twitter when she hasn't had a night off for a long time and writing a lot under short deadlines.  I don't blame her since these Writers have to spin gold out of straw... actually worse than straw.   But I think she and the other Writers actually like the stories they're writing, from their interactions with one another.

Well, I guess that makes me feel good that there are people actually trying. I haven't really kept up with most of the writers lately, so I guess the problems with this season lay in other places...

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, CCTC said:

I also have a feeling the flow of season 6 might have been due to some network input.  I suspect they were going to do the untold stories and the dual Regina's and then were told to work Aladdin in there. 

Absolutely. I think the S5 finale was so poorly received that abc asked A&E to wrap up the Jekyll/Hyde stuff and introduce Aladdin instead. But my goodness, what a boring Aladdin and Jasmine we got! It was a mess.

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think that A&E are still pretty engaged this season, while last season, they clearly had stopped caring. While last season it felt like they were just checking things off a to do list, and were pretty bored, this season they seem quite excited about their new fanfic where they get to focus all on Regina, Rumple, and shiny new villains, and stop worrying about those "boring" heroes. 

I might agree, if they actually gave Regina and Rumple anything to do this season. I do think A&E's plan was to drop the boring heroes and focus on their favs, but they have done nothing with it. They had more going on for Regina and Rumple in Season 6 than they do now. Regina spews platitudes, while Rumple is disengaged from the narrative more than ever. Of the villains, Tremaine flopped, and Drizella fizzled out. Only Gothel is somewhat menacing, but her motives and plans are vague and confusing, even more than for the Black Fairy. Adult Henry has 0.1% impact on the season. Whook and Alice have nothing to do with the main plot. Also, we have no clue what the main plot is, and I doubt A&E do either. They'll probably make something up as they write the finale.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Rumsy4