Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[screamin]

On 9/6/2018 at 6:51 PM, nikma said:

He never lied. If he says he knows the ending, I think at least he thinks he knows. 

For now, only option where Tyrion's betrayal makes sense in the show is if he is somehow forced to choose between Dany and Jaime. I think it would make complete sense that he would choose Jaime. It was completely clear even in S7 that he is very conflicted and that going to war against your own family is not easy at all.

I think that if Tyrion were in fact in love with Dany, it makes sense that if he found out that one of the two Targaryens must take on the role of Nissa Nissa and be sacrificed by the other to defeat the NK and the Long Night, he'd keep the knowledge from Dany and tell Jon instead, so that noble Jon would sacrifice himself to save his love and their unborn child. Dany would perceive this as a betrayal by Tyrion, especially if he attempted to conceal what he'd tolld Jon and she found out anyway.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, GrailKing said:

See I disagree, Sansa was on arc or very close to it until mid-season 4.

No one of the characters exists in the same Planetos. No one exists therefore in the same "reality". Think about it as Earth1 and Earth 2 in DC comics. In fact, i think Bryan Cogman said something close to that.

They never were the same people. It's an adaptation after all. A derivative work where they use the elements of the original narrative if they feel it is useful.

In the first season they used many of those elements to create the narrative of their own characters inside their own "reality", in the last seasons they used less of them. That's all.

[nikma]

16 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I know you are asking other person, but yes, the wight hunt made sense.

So, you think set up in E5 was good? 

[OhOkayWhat]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

So, you think set up in E5 was good? 

I think the whole season was rushed, but (mostly) it made sense, E5 included. Tyrion suggestion was consistent with his character.

Edited September 8, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

9 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think the whole season was rushed, but (mostly) it made sense, E5 included. Tyrion suggestion was consistent with his character.

Set up could've make sense, but characters agreed too fast, it was a radical move and they decided in 3 minutes scene. In those circumstances it didn't make sense that they didn't consider any other option. White Hunt as the best of the worst options could work, but in that scene it felt like it was good idea, no one questioned it.

 

That's the reason why E6 was contraversal in the end. They didn't sell the idea to the audience. 

My point is, even if you think Tyrion's betrayel won't work, it doesn't mean it won't happen, because in the past there were developments that didn't work perfectly, but they did happen. 

[OhOkayWhat]

41 minutes ago, nikma said:

Set up could've make sense, but characters agreed too fast, it was a radical move and they decided in 3 minutes scene. In those circumstances it didn't make sense that they didn't consider any other option. White Hunt as the best of the worst options could work, but in that scene it felt like it was good idea, no one questioned it.

 

That's the reason why E6 was contraversal in the end. They didn't sell the idea to the audience. 

My point is, even if you think Tyrion's betrayel won't work, it doesn't mean it won't happen, because in the past there were developments that didn't work perfectly, but they did happen. 

That's why I said it felt rushed. Also they agreed to the wight hunt because no one of them, except Jon and Jorah, was risking too much. In fact, it was a very good offer they took quickly. And Jon, being Jon, makes perfect sense taking the job over his shoulders. 

In fact, the other main option: to go and destroy Kings Landing, was discussed previously and Jon convinced Dany to do not do that.

E6 was controversial to whom exactly?. The people who uses the GoT forums around the net are just a tiny minority of the whole audience. The youtubers too. And critics made so many mistakes within their articles that they are an entire different case.

Edited September 8, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

With all this drama between characters it almost feels like the WW will be secondary plot lol.

[OhOkayWhat]

34 minutes ago, nikma said:

With all this drama between characters it almost feels like the WW will be secondary plot lol.

LOL so true!

[SimoneS]

It is still unclear to me who Tyrion is betraying Jon and/or Dany to. It can't be the Night King. Cersei or Euron?

Edited September 9, 2018 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

30 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It is still unclear to me who Tyrion is betraying Jon and/or Dany to. It can't be the Night King. Cersei or Euron?

I think Jon and Danny, with that House Stark, he wants to make sure Cersei's child lives and the Lannister name, Jon and Danny getting together put's his house in jeopardy.

Whether he destroys Winterfell, on purpose or by accident, it helps his house.

Treason for love of family, over duty to Danny.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Or we have Arya playing the game of faces. In fact she tells Sansa (and the audience) that she is doing precisely that.

Once again, it made sense.

Why doesn't she just ask her? And whatever Sansa says she can tell the truth instead of using threats.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I know you are asking other person, but yes, the wight hunt made sense.

This when you know someone is stanning too hard for the show

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sure when the ambiguity about it make sense in either direction.

What they did at Winterfell did not. We literally have Arya threatening to kill and rip off Sansa's face, lol

I disagree, it made sense.

GRRM point blank stated the girls had issues to get over,  and from her last scene in KL she sees  Sansa on the dais smiling and with the Lannisters, her past history in Darry  still in her memory, and now she sees her sister with them, she concludes her sister betrayed her father, when in fact she's expecting his life to be spared and sent to the wall.

Then they give us after escaping Harrenhal Jaquen giving her the coin, and she tells us she has to find her brothers and my sister, I got to find her too, but that wasn't a look of happiness, more like score settling.

Arya carried KL in her head for 7 years, all the while letting it fester and ready to erupt.

Did they rush it; yes, they should had Arya return a bit earlier or cut down some barfing scenes and concentrate on the two girls.

Did it pass my D.H. Lawrence test yeah and it matched what GRRM stated to boot.

Edited September 9, 2018 by GrailKing

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Why doesn't she just ask her? And whatever Sansa says she can tell the truth instead of using threats.

Because Arya likes the power that playing the game of faces gives her. Even if it is dangerous, cruel and maybe even unreliable as far we know. She believes it's some kind of superpower and that she is some kind of superhero. She is very wrong.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

This when you know someone is stanning too hard for the show

Not really. Sometimes I like to criticize the criticism if I find errors within it. The logical byproduct is a defense of the show. That's all.

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Did they rush it; yes, they should had Arya return a bit earlier

I really agree with this.

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

7 hours ago, Wouter said:

If he had a multiple books/seasons spanning romantic rivalry with Jon, as apparently was the case in the outline, fine. But as a last-minute thing when the WW are at the gate (or the Golden Company or whatever)?

 

The Tyrion-Jon 'deadly rivalry' would have happened in the outline at exactly the same spot it's happening in the show.

Quote

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.

Do you think GRRM will rush the Jon/Dany meeting and falling in love stuff as was done on the show? Or Arya returning home to Winterfell? Or the Jon-Arya reunion? Or Dany's conquest of Westeros with a second Dance of Dragons? These are all plots that could and are spanning multiple books but are dealt with in minutes on the show.

If Jon and Dany can meet and fall in love in the 10 minutes of episode time given to these characters, why cannot D&D incorporate Tyrion's romantic rivalry with Jon in the last season? Especially since the seeds were planted in the season 6 finale when director Sapochnik mentioned Tyrion's 'look' at Dany indicating that he was falling for her. I think @Eyes High may remember, but we had this discussion early in the season 7 speculation thread about Tyrion falling for Dany and how that could lead to a love triangle with Jon. This was before way before season 7 aired, or the leaks or before we even knew that Jon/Dany would meet last season.

So the show has been pushing the 'Tyrion is falling in love with Dany' for two seasons now. And last season Dany fell in love with Jon. What is the logical conclusion of this then?

I do think the D&D are bad writers who value 'shock and surprise' over proper story telling. Hence every Sansa plot in the north after they dumped the character there in season 5. Why did Sansa not tell Jon about the Vale army? Because they wanted a 'Ride of the Rohirrim' moment. What was the WF plot last season? What was Sansa's constantly constipated face throughout season 7 supposed to tell the audience? That she wanted to be Queen? That she loved Jon very much? That she was threatened by Arya? That she loved Arya? That she knew LF was upto no good? That she was getting manipulated by LF? Who send the letter asking Sansa to come to the Dragonpit? Why? Why did Sansa send Brienne away? To isolate Arya? Or to manipulate LF? Why did all knowing all seeing Bran not intervene when LF was walking around manipulating all the lords in WF? Why did Glover do a complete 360 and turn into a shithead within two episodes?

The actors, directors and even the writers themselves don't know what the WF plot was about! The director point blank says that he does not know when asked about the Sansa-Arya-LF plot. Maisie, Isaac and Sophie each tell different versions. Sophie talks about the Stark sisters manipulating and beating LF, Maisie talks about Arya being a bad person, Isaac tells us that Sansa was going to gut her sister. D&D themselves ask questions in the script - Is Sansa sending Brienne away for nefarious reasons? That's your bloody job to tell us!!

Look, it could very well be that there is no Tyrion betrayal plot on the show and Friki is wrong or whatever. But I never understood dismissing that idea or theory because D&D have not logically build up to it, or that one would never expect show Tyrion to behave in that way. I mean D&D suddenly wrote an Arya who trained for two seasons under the FM as an idiot psychopath who wanted to randomly assassinate the Northern lords and threaten her sister over a stupid letter! That's some of the worst character assassination right there. Tyrion has killed people with Wildfire, has seen Dany use her dragons to kill people in Meereen and suddenly, once they come to Westeros, he becomes a pacifist clutching his pearls at Dany using her dragons? What did he think following the Mother of Dragons entailed? How did he think Dany was planning on fighting in Westeros?

I will quote D&D here: " “Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

As I said, if D&D were doing their own ending, then I would expect Tyrion and Sansa to end up as endgame leaders since they have basically stripped book Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran etc. of their leadership, intelligence and political know-how on the show.  On the other hand, if D&D were trying for GRRM's endings, then we are going to see some sharp swerves in the final season. If D&D want something to happen, it will happen. Irrespective of whether it makes sense or not. I suspect Tyrion and Arya in particular are two characters who will be very different in the final season.

And as @nikma mentioned, all the actors also seem to very surprised/shocked by this ending. I mean, I can understand this seeing as how Kit Harington expected Tyrion to end up on the Iron Throne. Emilia saying that the ending 'fucked her up', all the 'it's very unpredictable and bittersweet' etc. I don't think this would be the response if it was about Jon/Dany dying.

And finally, I would like to point out that the rivalry between Jon Snow and Tyrion at the very end in the original outline is supposedly 'Deadly'. Maybe this is an indication that one of these two characters would end up dead.

Edited September 9, 2018 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

I know it does not belong here, but...

Ramin Djawadi finally won an Emmy!!!

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

Maybe Tyrion turns his back on Dany when she kills Varys.

[nikma]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

 

I will quote D&D here: " “Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen

Will people ever stop using this quote out of context? Thay said it creatively made sense that it you set up Tyrion's meeting with Dany at the beginning of the season, it needs to happen before the end.

 

I wish someone told GRRM that.

[OhOkayWhat]

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

Will people ever stop using this quote out of context? Thay said it creatively made sense that it you set up Tyrion's meeting with Dany at the beginning of the season, it needs to happen before the end.

Thank you! People keep using that phrase out of context.

They are talking about a specific event inside a specific episode as a part of a specific plot.

They are talking about the timing. About how they wanted the meeting at that moment instead of waiting more and more episodes and therefore it made creative sense to choose 5x07 to do it, instead, let say 5x10 or 6x03, etc.

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

27 minutes ago, nikma said:

Will people ever stop using this quote out of context? Thay said it creatively made sense that it you set up Tyrion's meeting with Dany at the beginning of the season, it needs to happen before the end.

Yes, but that is pretty much the actual sentence they used to explain Dany and Tyrion meeting in episode 7 of season 5.  It does not stop being funny even in context with what they were trying to say.

Quote

Showrunner David Benioff said pairing these two characters—played by Emmy winner Peter Dinklage and Emmy nominee Emilia Clarke—was one of the twists the producers most eagerly anticipated this season. “We’re really excited to see these two characters we love so much finally set eyes on each other,” Benioff said. “Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen. They’re two of the best characters of the show. To have them come so close together this season then have them not meet felt incredibly frustrating. Also, we’re on a relatively fast pace. We don’t want to do a 10-year adaptation of the books, we don’t want to do a nine-year adaptation. We’re not going to spend four seasons in Meereen. It’s time for these two to get together. It’s hard to come up with a more eloquent explanation, but this just felt right. [Varys] puts Tyrion’s mission out there [in the season premiere] and the mission ends in Meereen.”

https://ew.com/article/2015/05/24/game-thrones-tyrion-dany-meet/

I have no complaints with how Dany/Tyrion met or anything about them getting together. The phrase is used to demonstrate how D&D seem to justify their plots. Namely -They want a magnificent seven adventure beyond the wall in the penultimate episode? - we get wight hunt and wight polar bears. Why is Sansa taking over for Jeyne? We want to give Sophie Turner something more to do. Why is this character not yet dead? We like the actor. Why is this character dead? We dislike the actor. And so on.

Edited September 9, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

They used that phrase because they didn't want to criticise GRRM in public. But in that quote you can clearly feel what they think about ADWD, Meereen, Tyrion's plot,...

[OhOkayWhat]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

The phrase is used to demonstrate how D&D seem to justify their plots

And that's one of the problems. The phrase makes sense in the context of the Tyrion-meeting-Dany plot decision and with the interview explanation. To use the phrase to give it a different meaning (out of the context of the interview) does not prove anything.

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

er. The phrase is used to demonstrate how D&D seem to justify their plots. Namely -They want a magnificent seven adventure beyond the wall in the penultimate episode? - we get wight hunt and wight polar bears. Why is Sansa taking over for Jeyne? We want to give Sophie Turner something more to do. Why is this character not yet dead? We like the actor. Why is this character dead? We dislike the actor. And so on.

Yeah. It's really astonishing that what writers want ends up happening. I guess in other stories characters have their free will?

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

And that's one of the problems. The phrase makes sense in the context of the Tyrion-meeting-Dany plot decision and with the interview explanation. To use the phrase to give it a different meaning (out of the context of the interview) does not prove anything.

 

I personally used it to show how they write - they want something to happen and therefore it makes sense to them. They don't want Tyrion and Dany to wait for three seasons before meeting and therefore it made sense to them creatively for it happen immediately. They want to give Sophie Turner more to do and hence it made sense for them creatively to give her the story of Jeyne Poole. They want to have an adventure episode beyond the wall and hence it made sense to them creatively for there to be a wight episode.

I was using a hilarious sentence that Benioff used to explain my idea of how these guys write and not using the phrase as the central point of my thesis on how D&D suck as writers.

8 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yeah. It's really astonishing that what writers want ends up happening. I guess in other stories characters have their free will?

Yeah, they are free to write what they want just as I am free to criticize their shitty writing. The wall could have fallen if the NK just showed up with the Horn mentioned in season 2 (Twist!) and done it. But instead that whole plot made our heroes into idiots responsible for setting the AOTD on Westeros.  Westeros would have been fine if Jon had just sat at WF and waited it out. But I guess the wight polar bear was worth it.

Edited September 9, 2018 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

I personally used it to show how they write - they want something to happen and therefore it makes sense to them. They don't want Tyrion and Dany to wait for three seasons before meeting and therefore it made sense to them creatively for it happen immediately. They want to give Sophie Turner more to do and hence it made sense for them creatively to give her the story of Jeyne Poole. They want to have an adventure episode beyond the wall and hence it made sense to them creatively for there to be a wight episode.

I was using a hilarious sentence that Benioff used to explain my idea of how these guys write and not using the phrase as the central point of my thesis on how D&D suck as writers.

We should explain our opinion/thesis without quoting out of context. Because every quote has its own context. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yeah, they are free to write what they want just as I am free to criticize their shitty writing.

You are, but saying that things are happening like writers want is strange, because it implies that's not the case in other stories.

[OhOkayWhat]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

You are, but saying that things are happening like writers want is strange, because it implies that's not the case in other stories.

This is an interesting point. I suppose if a writer want a scene with a couple dancing a waltz, the writer will write stuff that will lead to that dancing scene.

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

You are, but saying that things are happening like writers want is strange, because it implies that's not the case in other stories.

Well to quote your own words:

12 hours ago, nikma said:

Set up could've make sense, but characters agreed too fast, it was a radical move and they decided in 3 minutes scene. In those circumstances it didn't make sense that they didn't consider any other option. White Hunt as the best of the worst options could work, but in that scene it felt like it was good idea, no one questioned it.

 

That's the reason why E6 was contraversal in the end. They didn't sell the idea to the audience. 

 

 

To quote Oprah: so what is the truth here? You accept that "things happen because writers want it" is sufficient for every plot --- or that without the necessary set-up and build-up, "because writers want it" is not just insufficient for "things to happen" but fundamentally, shitty story-telling?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Katsullivan

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well to quote your own words:

 

 

To quote Oprah: so what is the truth here? You accept that "things happen because writers want it" is sufficient for every plot --- or that without the necessary set-up and build-up, "because writers want it" is not just insufficient for "things to happen" but fundamentally, shitty story-telling?

Those are two different things. In every show things are happening because writers want them to happen. Every scene in GoT whether you like it or not, happened because D&D wanted it.

To present that as some great mistake is wrong IMO. 

That doesn't mean you have to like every creative decision they've made.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

They want a magnificent seven adventure beyond the wall in the penultimate episode? - we get wight hunt and wight polar bears. Why is Sansa taking over for Jeyne? We want to give Sophie Turner something more to do. Why is this character not yet dead? We like the actor. Why is this character dead? We dislike the actor. And so on.

I agree with most of this ( lack of setup ), with Sophie it was more to elicit sympathy for Sansa, but also what she / Jeyne went through.

I myself felt really bad for Jeyne and Theon in the books; and I preferred Sansa's Vale arc; slowly learning and having to make some tough decisions, mildly trying to setup something to help herself.

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think Jon and Danny, with that House Stark, he wants to make sure Cersei's child lives and the Lannister name, Jon and Danny getting together put's his house in jeopardy.

Whether he destroys Winterfell, on purpose or by accident, it helps his house.

Treason for love of family, over duty to Danny.

Last season when I said that it seemed like Tyrion was deliberately sabotaging Dany to save Jamie at least, I wasn't totally convinced and others said that wasn't the case. It still feels like a reach. I mean, how does Tyrion know that Cersei won't just kill him and it wasn't like Jamie embraced him when they met. And if Jamie has abandoned Cersei to join Dany and Jon, how does Tyrion know that Cersei won't just kill them both? I am struggling with the rationale for Tyrion's betrayal.

[nikma]

In S7 we just saw seeds. In S8 we will get reasons.

 

I don't think he wanted Dany to lose, he wanted her on the IT, but it's claer that he didn't want his family do die either. He wanted to achieve both, but failed and then Jon came and took his spot.

[GraceK]

You know what would be seriously Shakespearean? For Tyrion’s actions to somehow he inadvertently to blame for Jaimes death. If he’s unaware that Cersei betrayed their truce arrangement and Jaime is on the way to Winterfell, and he made some deal with Cersei to get her agree to their truce and then she attacks Winterfell instead and that’s  how Jaime dies, that would be awesome. He betrays the Stark and Targaryen alliance for his “family”, only to be responsible for the death of his actual brother who he loves, all for a baby that ends up not even existing cause Cersei miscarriages.

Edited September 9, 2018 by GraceK

[shireenbamfatheon]

18 hours ago, nikma said:

So, do you think white hunt made perfect sense? 

No? I'm well aware that plenty of things haven't made sense on the show for years, and I'm equally aware that they could write Tyrion however they wanted to, but Tyrion is a character whose ending they've been informed of since the beginning, and if a love triangle is the best they can do, then they've failed. That's why I'm hoping it has something to do with Jaime, which would explain why they did away with the Tysha subplot. 

Hopefully, I'm just being dramatic and context will make sense, but that's what I've been saying to myself for seasons now so... I think I'm just gonna be skeptical about this leak. 

[Katsullivan]

5 hours ago, nikma said:

Those are two different things. In every show things are happening because writers want them to happen. Every scene in GoT whether you like it or not, happened because D&D wanted it.

To present that as some great mistake is wrong IMO. 

That doesn't mean you have to like every creative decision they've made.

 

"Liking a creative decision" and "Set up could've make sense"/"circumstances it didn't make sense"/"They didn't sell the idea to the audience", to quote you again.

are not the same thing. 

There are a lot of stories that I've read that I did not like --- but the set-up clearly made sense. I just wish they had gone in a different direction. 

OTOH, there are lots of stories which had outcomes I wanted --- but I admit that the set-up was not there. 

2 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

No? I'm well aware that plenty of things haven't made sense on the show for years, and I'm equally aware that they could write Tyrion however they wanted to, but Tyrion is a character whose ending they've been informed of since the beginning, and if a love triangle is the best they can do, then they've failed. That's why I'm hoping it has something to do with Jaime, which would explain why they did away with the Tysha subplot. 

So basically --- the previous shitty writing (Sansa's Education via Rape, included) was pushing it but this Tyrion!betrayal!arc would be last straw?

[nikma]

Maybe Sansa and Arya make it clear that Jaime and Cersei's crimes won't be forgiven after the war. Maybe Tyrion sees that conflict between the Starks and the Lannistes is not really over for them and that having Jon as king would be extremely dangerous for Cersei, Jaime and their child, because he thinks Sansa and Arya will have strong influence on Jon.

[nikma]

16 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

"Liking a creative decision" and "Set up could've make sense"/"circumstances it didn't make sense"/"They didn't sell the idea to the audience", to quote you again.

are not the same thing. 

My point was that he used that quote from D&D about Tyrion and Dany's meeting out of context ,  and I said that every writer writes what he wants to happen and what he/she thinks makes sense to happen, so I don't see how is  that some unforgivable sin. You can like it or not, you can think they did good or bad job, but in every story things are happening because writers want them to happen. Characters don't have free will. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

if a love triangle is the best they can do

Love triangle is something that comes straight from GRRM's first outline. It is his idea. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by nikma

[WindyNights]

30 minutes ago, nikma said:

My point was that he used that quote from D&D about Tyrion and Dany's meeting out of context ,  and I said that every writer writes what he wants to happen and what he/she thinks makes sense to happen, so I don't see how is  that some unforgivable sin. You can like it or not, you can think they did good or bad job, but in every story things are happening because writers want them to happen. Characters don't have free will. 

 

 

Love triangle is something that comes straight from GRRM's first outline. It is his idea. 

A love triangle isn't a bad idea but it depends on how you push it.

D & D didn't set it up well enough. 

I brought up Peter Dinklage's quote up in another forum and most of them were surprised that Tyrion was supposed to be in love with Daenerys.

If Tyrion is supposed to be in love with Daenerys then we have the benefit of being in Tyrion's head when it happens.

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

My point was that he used that quote from D&D about Tyrion and Dany's meeting out of context ,  and I said that every writer writes what he wants to happen and what he/she thinks makes sense to happen, so I don't see how is  that some unforgivable sin. You can like it or not, you can think they did good or bad job, but in every story things are happening because writers want them to happen. Characters don't have free will. 

That's the difference between a plot-driven story and a character-driven story.

[OhOkayWhat]

After reading opinions the last two days about Tyrion in season 8 and if the spoiler is true, i think it's seems that D&D put enough seeds there to use them, at least, in a way.

Other thing i noticed is people keep mixing two different things: characters making mistakes (small and bigger ones) and mistakes within the writing.

Writing a character making a mistake when you already made sure to stablish a series of circunstaces around the character doing those mistakes is just a narrative choice, it is not a narrative mistake.

It seems people dont like this or that character failing and forget the sea of circunstances where such event (the mistake) happened. And that is where the criticism of certain plots falls apart.

One of those cases is "Arya in Winterfell" plot or Sansa before the Battle of the Bastard scene.

[nikma]

7 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

D&D didn't set it up well enough

I think fans just didn't want to believe it. It was claer in that last scene from S6 that Tyrion feels something for Dany.

There were hints, we will see how it will play out in S8.

[OhOkayWhat]

18 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That's the difference between a plot-driven story and a character-driven story.

Talking about it only in a narrative sense, it's up to the writer to choose this or that style. But to call a plot-driven story a mistake only because it is a plot-driven story does not make sense if you think about it.

Edited September 9, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[Happy Harpy]

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think fans just didn't want to believe it. It was claer in that last scene from S6 that Tyrion feels something for Dany.

There were hints, we will see how it will play out in S8.

I agree about this. Many noticed that Tyrion might have romantic feelings for Dany back then, even when rejecting the idea.

I've always had a sibling-like vibe from their scenes and I didn't want to believe it because I hate love triangles even more than I hate spinach or broccoli. Because Dany never had a decent brother, Tyrion never had a decent sister, and I love their power platonic friendship. Because I love the Jon and Tyrion friendship and I don't want it broken either.

Except for those revealed for a kind of shock value (Cersei/Jaime in 1x01, Shae in Tywin'd bed) pairings never came out of left field. Romantic foreshadowing was to be taken at face value. Pairs were deliberately set as romantic from the start (who doubted that Robb and Talisa would be an item?) or you had someone like Bronn spelling it out for the audience at one point after some more or less subtle telegraphing.

It's possible that on the boat, Tyrion looked darkly at the door because he was afraid Jon and Dany would screw up a profitable military alliance. But if you take the scene at face value, it's romantic jealousy. Following pattern, it could be that 6x10 was the start of the subtle telegraphing and 7x07 was spelling it out.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

And in Peter's interview he said that Tyrion is afraid of that feeling, he doesn't want to admit it to himself either. It is subtle, but it is there for sure. I think it will be more clear in S8, but when people rewatch the show they will realize that it was there for seasons.

 

Just like how RW becomes obvious, when you rewatch the show.

[GraceK]

I just don’t understand the logic of betraying the two people who have given him respect, ( and especially the woman who has given him affection, esteem, worth admiration and power) for Cersei who has not only been trying to kill him his whole life, but has despised, mistreated, abused and treated him with contempt and disgust since the day he was born. especially now that his beloved brother is joining their team and they are facing an apocalypse, and oh yeah, she has betrayed them AGAIN.  How are they going to Legitimately justify this without playing us all for idiots? 

 

Edited to add:: and I am sick of people betraying Jon Snow. LEAVE MY BOO BOO ALONE!!’ ?

Edited September 9, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

I think there are a lot of elements that D&D could explore to make this great and complex, elements that are already there. Yeah, there is love for Dany and jealousy towards Jon, loyalty to Jaime and his family, Cersei's child, guilt that he feels over Myrcella's death, Dany could do some things against his will ( Varys' death?), political problems with the Starks,...

Maybe Sansa and Arya make it clear that Jaime and Cersei's crimes won't be forgiven after the war. Maybe Tyrion sees that conflict between the Starks and the Lannistes is not really over for them and that having Jon as king would be extremely dangerous for Cersei, Jaime and their child, because he thinks Sansa and Arya will have strong influence on Jon.

As I said, there are a lot of elements they could use. It's up to the writers to make this work. But it can work and it can be great and powerful. It is not impossible for this storyline to work. It will be controversial for some people, who no matter how often they claim they love GoT for its moral complexity, don't really want to see real conflict between the good guys. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by nikma

[nikma]

I think it is clear that GoT in it's last season will be far from black and white, where we have good guys and bad guys. That great alliance in the North could be more like alliance between USA and USSR in WW2. They really had their common enemy, but behind the scenes they were plotting and preparing for the new world order, after Hitler. And this is what can happen in GoT too, and if D&D pull this off it will be perfect IMO. They have their common enemy, but Starks and the Lannisters would understand that in the new world, post-White Walkers, only one house could be the most powerful house in Westeros.

Maybe Sansa wants to make sure that Starks never suffer like they suffered during WOT5K, she wants to secure strong influence on the Throne through Jon. I don't think Sansa would want Tyrion to die or anything similar, but I'm not sure about Cersei at all. And even with Jaime, he is responsable  for Blackfish's death, he committed many crimes in Riverlands in S1, he killed Jory Cassel, he almost killed Bran Stark. I'm not saying that Sansa and Arya would ask for his death, but they could ask for him to be striped of lands and titles. And I'm not sure that Jaime will accept that. And Jaime won't accept Cersei's death, that's for sure. 

These are just ideas, maybe it's just jealousy towards Jon in the end LOL. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I just don’t understand the logic of betraying the two people who have given him respect, ( and especially the woman who has given him affection, esteem, worth admiration and power) for Cersei who has not only been trying to kill him his whole life, but has despised, mistreated, abused and treated him with contempt and disgust since the day he was born. especially now that his beloved brother is joining their team and they are facing an apocalypse, and oh yeah, she has betrayed them AGAIN.  How are they going to Legitimately justify this without playing us all for idiots?

Yeah, "for Cersei" is where the betrayal theory stops working out for me or at least, the betrayal with good intentions. If he betrays for her, Tyrion would have to go full-on villain and even then, even with the tame dislike he arbors for her on the show as opposed to the white-hot hatred of the books, I'd have a hard time believing it.

If the Iron Bank was to play a role in S8, I'd say he could make a deal with them, on condition they get rid of Cersei -without killing her because baby. The IB would have allied with Euron when he fetched the GC in Braavos, in order to carry out that strategy.

I thought of something else. With Tyrion a POV character, it will be pretty difficult to make it a surprise reveal in the books (if they're ever to be written).

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, anamika said:

@Eyes High

 

Look, it could very well be that there is no Tyrion betrayal plot on the show and Friki is wrong or whatever. But I never understood dismissing that idea or theory because D&D have not logically build up to it, or that one would never expect show Tyrion to behave in that way. @nikma

 

 

Fair enough.

Even assuming Friki's leak is correct though, who would end up being the Valonqar? And what are Dany and Jon doing at Tyrion's supposed trial?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Wouter

[whateverdgaf]

Whatever happens, it's important to remember that every character facing the White Walkers is about to go through a battle unlike they've ever experienced before and we don't know yet what impact it is going to have on them. So whereas Tyrion my not yet be in a place where could conceivably betray Jon and Daenerys and the Starks, nor Jon or Daenerys to give him reason to (re threatening Cersei and Jaime's child) their ordeal during the fight against the Night King will have a significant effect on them.

And if this spoiler is true, who is right or wrong will certainly not be black and white.