Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Happy Harpy]

35 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Something else that isn't explained by Friki is why 2 actors portraying Faceless (wo)men are present in the Seville scenes.

I thought he brushed it off by saying the production called some actors in Seville, but they didn't film, like Kit (according to him).

Maybe it was someone else though, honestly I'm losing track.

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

What is Friki's track record, exactly? Last year it was Lads who leaked all there was to leak, and AFAIK Friki only got (extra) spoilers shortly before the episodes aired. What did he leak in the past that turned out to be accurate (and wasn't already spoiled by other means before)?

 

Friki doctor had complete episode summaries a week or so before episodes aired, last year. They were extremely accurate, except for a couple of minor omissions (Sansa telling Brienne off) and there's no denying he had real info. People seem to think it's from someone in the translation team. It's way too early for translators to have any material.

Otherwise, no, I don't remember he ever spoiled anything. He believed some fleakers who were debunked ("mother superior", according to someone at freefolk). His off season videos were seemingly off the mark. To be fair he did say those videos were just theories and not spoilers; it's not his fault if seeing his name, many people assumed they were leaks. But people take things like the "Talking Thrones" BS as real spoilers, so well...

Edited September 8, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[GraceK]

It’s possible it’s not Dany he betrays at all, but the Starks. That would make a lot more sense to me honestly. Secret deals with Cersei to betray Daenarys really would make no sense for the character we have seen for the last 4 seasons. 

I could see how he can rationalize betraying Jon in Some way if he feels its for the greater good, especially if his judgement is clouded by his love for Daenarys and he feels that Jon’s greater claim will usurp her and take away everything he has.

Dany has given him respect, purpose, influence and now a literal mission to help save the world. She’s the embodiment of a savior in his eyes. He basically said as much to Cersei last season. Now Jon comes along and not only does she take his Advice over his, she’s in love with him and with the parentage reveal, Jon could be King of the 7K and where does that leave Tyrion in the eyes of the Starks? I could see how maybe , especially if Varys starts pushing to back Jon instead of Dany, that could lead Tyrion to betray them  for what he feels is Danys benefit. ( and in his heart of hearts, get rid of a rival)

Edited September 8, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

There's only one reason Tyrion would have for betraying the Starks that doesn't totally blow up his character - saving Jaime's life.  If/when the Starks find out about what he did to Bran they'll probably want to execute him on the spot and I don't see Dany being inclined to disagree with that sentiment.  Kill him for any insubordination related to that and you have a perfect way for him to go out in a conflicted way.  If it ends up playing like jealousy over Dany hooking up with Jon and effectively demoting Tyrion to figurehead hand then it ruins one of the show's heroes (and Tyrion is unquestionably a hero on the show).

 

I really doubt the Starks are going to be all about executing Jaime when there is an apocalyptic threat on the way. Jon/Dany wanted to make peace with Cersei/Kingslayer. Why would not Arya, Sansa and Bran be equally considerate? Especially super diplomat Sansa and literal God Bran. Current Bran would surely not be all that bothered by Jaime and Jon has forgiven even Theon.

I also disagree with the statement that Tyrion is unquestionably a hero on the show. Has he been liberally whitewashed on the show? Yes. But does that make him a hero on par with Dany and Jon? No. Tyrion murdered Shae. Tyrion made sure the Lannister regime continued and that Joffrey stayed on the throne. Tyrion tried to prevent Dany from going to help Jon and Co. Has Tyrion done anything selfless and for the greater good?

That's why people laugh at 'undercover Jon' theories where Jon is deceiving Dany but Tyrion betraying Dany is a plausible theory. Show Jon is unquestionably a hero. Show Tyrion? Not so much. Book Tyrion is straight up a villain.

I do think Tyrion's love for Dany will be the culprit. Dinklage mentions how 'There’s jealousy wrapped up in there'. Look at Tyrion when Dany asks for Jon's advice on the beach in Dragonstone. When she takes Jon's advice about sailing together for Winterfell. He's not pleased. And jealousy is an ugly emotion.

While I hope that D&D tackle Tyrion's endgame arc and final journey well, after seeing the WF plot last season I am not having faith that this will happen. They are too into shock moments. When did Sansa figure out that LF was up to no good? We don't know. And they cut the scene where Sansa consults Bran because they most probably wanted the twist of Sansa having a LF trial instead of an Arya trial. If they deal with the whole Tyrion betrayal reveal like the WF LF trial - then it's going to be terribly horrible. Tyrion deserves better.

Edited September 8, 2018 by anamika

[Happy Harpy]

23 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I could see how he can rationalize betraying Jon in Some way if he feels its for the greater good, especially if his judgement is clouded by his love for Daenarys and he feels that Jon’s greater claim will usurp her and take away everything he has.

I hear you. Yet, how many times did D&D have him say he's an excellent judge of characters? He knows that Jon isn't like that. He could try to convince himself that Jon is bad for Dany, except he knows better than anyone that Jon is able to moderate her. Imo, Tyrion can only delude himself with lies his brain can't deny based upon evidence.

Rather than willingly betraying Jon only or Dany only (imo J/D are now a unit and their enemies know it's both or neither) I could imagine Tyrion trying to prove Dany that she also needs him, with dire consequences.

Of course, here I come back to my main reason for refusing to believe in the betrayal theory to start with. Why would Tyrion be stupid enough to pull such a stunt whereas the living are fighting for their survival?

I still have no satisfying answer.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

Love can blind people and make them irrational. Jealousy as well. I could see Tyrion doing something against Jon even if he is "exellent judge of characters".

Dany gave Tyrion a purpose, a reason to live again. If he thinks Jon will take that away from him, he will try to remove him. 

He has to be frustrated that Jon "used" situation when Tyrion wasn't effective enough. It was really hard for him to balance his loyalties to both Dany and Lannisters, which lead to his failures, which lead to Dany turning to Jon. He may hate Jon for taking advantage of his hard situation.

I mean, this is just seed of conflict. A lot more will happen in S8. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

There's only one reason Tyrion would have for betraying the Starks that doesn't totally blow up his character - saving Jaime's life.  If/when the Starks find out about what he did to Bran they'll probably want to execute him on the spot and I don't see Dany being inclined to disagree with that sentiment.  Kill him for any insubordination related to that and you have a perfect way for him to go out in a conflicted way.  If it ends up playing like jealousy over Dany hooking up with Jon and effectively demoting Tyrion to figurehead hand then it ruins one of the show's heroes (and Tyrion is unquestionably a hero on the show).

Well it could also be because Sansa, escaped leaving him high and dry, thanks to LF and Oleanna.

QOT never exonerated Sansa, so the innocent mule could be an unintended casualty in the end, because book Tyrion is angry at his wife for leaving; it's low level but there.

[nikma]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this won't be like LFs death. With culmination of WF plot D&D put us in LF's POV, just like we were in Ned's POV in KL. We don't know when Bran, Sansa and Arya created their plan, just like we don't know when Cersei, Joffrey and LF made theirs in S1. We can only speculate.

 

But with this Tyrion's betrayal I think we will be in Jon and Dany's POV.  And I'm sure they will give great speech to Peter at the end, where he will explain his reasons. and we know there will be one scenewith 5 main characters where we find out this. 

 

I don't say it will work for sure, but I could see it work.

Edited September 8, 2018 by nikma

[cambridgeguy]

55 minutes ago, anamika said:

I also disagree with the statement that Tyrion is unquestionably a hero on the show. Has he been liberally whitewashed on the show? Yes. But does that make him a hero on par with Dany and Jon? No. Tyrion murdered Shae. Tyrion made sure the Lannister regime continued and that Joffrey stayed on the throne. Tyrion tried to prevent Dany from going to help Jon and Co. Has Tyrion done anything selfless and for the greater good?

On par with Jon/Dany?  Nope, but he's still mostly good.  Consider the examples you named.  Tyrion was unarmed when he walked up to Shae - she grabbed the knife and went for the kill first, and this was after she testified against him at his trial, which would have ended in either his execution or exile to the Wall.  He actively tried to rein in Joffrey.  Sure, he tried to stop Dany from rescuing Jon but thanks to her going she ended up giving the NK a dragon that allowed him to breach the Wall and enter the North.  He's also been the one who's tried to restrain Dany, Oleanna, and Ellaria at various points when they were willing to go scorched earth to win, casualties be damned.  That doesn't mean he made the right decisions but I guarantee you that the vast majority of viewers who aren't familiar with the book would classify Tyrion as a good guy. 

As another example, consider Davos.  He went along with most of Stannis's actions but he's clearly supposed to be a good guy too.  After all, Jon trusts him and he's one of the main heroes of the show.  In fact, of all the current cast only Cersei, Euron, Qyburn, and the Mountain are being presented as villainous scum.  Everyone else is grey (Melisandre) or good even if they aren't up to the Ned Stark standard of decency and honor.

[Eyes High]

27 minutes ago, nikma said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this won't be like LFs death. With culmination of WF plot D&D put us in LF's POV, just like we were in Ned's POV in KL. We don't know when Bran, Sansa and Arya created their plan, just like we don't know when Cersei, Joffrey and LF made theirs in S1. We can only speculate.

 

But with this Tyrion's betrayal I think we will be in Jon and Dany's POV.  And I'm sure they will give great speech to Peter at the end, where he will explain his reasons. and we know there will be one scenewith 5 main characters where we find out this. 

 

I don't say it will work for sure, but I could see it work.

"How do you answer these charges...Lord Tyrion?"

If Tyrion is imprisoned after the big reveal scene, then the Dragonpit scene could just be his execution scene, not necessarily a trial. That would avoid a retread of Littlefinger's trial.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

"How do you answer these charges...Lord Tyrion?"

If Tyrion is imprisoned after the big reveal scene, then the Dragonpit scene could just be his execution scene, not necessarily a trial. That would avoid a retread of Littlefinger's trial.

Maybe, but still Peter will get his Emmy-winning speech 

[anamika]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I could see how he can rationalize betraying Jon in Some way if he feels its for the greater good, especially if his judgement is clouded by his love for Daenarys and he feels that Jon’s greater claim will usurp her and take away everything he has.

 

For what it's worth, Tyrion's 'deadly rivalry' in the original outline was with Jon Snow.

42 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

On par with Jon/Dany?  Nope, but he's still mostly good.  Consider the examples you named.  Tyrion was unarmed when he walked up to Shae - she grabbed the knife and went for the kill first, and this was after she testified against him at his trial, which would have ended in either his execution or exile to the Wall. 

Shae grabs the knife because she knows he's going to kill her. He went there for revenge. And I don't know if she deserved death for testifying against him.

42 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

 He actively tried to rein in Joffrey. 

So? He still supported a sadistic brute like Joffrey, who liked torturing people to death. He kept Joffrey in power. He burned soldiers with Wildfire defending Joffrey against Stannis. The Hound said 'Fuck the King' and left. Tyrion continued supporting this despicable rule until the wedding when he got framed for murder. Then he decided to support Dany to get revenge against Cersei.

42 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

He's also been the one who's tried to restrain Dany, Oleanna, and Ellaria at various points when they were willing to go scorched earth to win, casualties be damned.  That doesn't mean he made the right decisions but I guarantee you that the vast majority of viewers who aren't familiar with the book would classify Tyrion as a good guy.

Which made no sense and could be because he was actively trying to sabotage Dany's campaign. War was going to lead to deaths. Did Tyrion think a long seige of KL would have no casualities? I do agree that D&D actively whitewashed the character and tried to justify his actions and make him sympathetic. But that does not mean Tyrion failing spectacularly in Dany's Westeros campaign makes him a hero.

42 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Sure, he tried to stop Dany from rescuing Jon but thanks to her going she ended up giving the NK a dragon that allowed him to breach the Wall and enter the North. 

If Dany had not gone, Jon would be dead. Tyrion was not ready to risk their war campaign against Cersei to save a few men. Dany was. That's why Dany is a hero and Tyrion is not. 

42 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

As another example, consider Davos.  He went along with most of Stannis's actions but he's clearly supposed to be a good guy too.  After all, Jon trusts him and he's one of the main heroes of the show.  In fact, of all the current cast only Cersei, Euron, Qyburn, and the Mountain are being presented as villainous scum.  Everyone else is grey (Melisandre) or good even if they aren't up to the Ned Stark standard of decency and honor.

I don't think Davos is a hero. Like you mention, he supported a religious fanatic like Stannis who tried to murder a child. He is supporting Jon now because he understands the bigger threat and how Jon is the best person for that fight. And I don't think anyone would call Mel or Jaime a hero.

I was only disagreeing with your statement about how Tyrion was unquestionably a hero on the show. He's a grey character for sure, but not a hero in my opinion.

Edited September 8, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

In S2 and S5 he admited that he was Hand because he likes power. This is sometning that Jon or Ned or Robb would never say.

 

He is much darker in the books, but Tyrion is far from some pure hero in the show.

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

In S2 and S5 he admited that he was Hand because he likes power. This is sometning that Jon or Ned or Robb would never say.

 

He is much darker in the books, but Tyrion is far from some pure hero in the show.

In the books, Tyrion's betrayal (assuming that's what happens) will necessarily play out differently, since we of course have access to Book Tyrion's POV and are privileged to his thoughts.

25 minutes ago, nikma said:

Maybe, but still Peter will get his Emmy-winning speech 

I don't see how it could possibly top his big Season 4 speech, and it will probably convey similar sentiments.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

In the books, Tyrion's betrayal (assuming that's what happens) will necessarily play out differently, since we of course have access to Book Tyrion's POV and are privileged to his thoughts.

I don't see how it could possibly top his big Season 4 speech, and it will probably convey similar sentiments.

 

I think it will be longer than his S4 speech.

 

I think main emotion will be guilt.

Edited September 8, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think it will be longer than his S4 speech.

 

I think main emotion will be guilt.

 

Maybe. I'd rather Tyrion be all "Fuck y'all" than teary and repentant, though.

Sandor must be dead by the time of Tyrion's trial, because there's no chance in hell he'd miss seeing Tyrion get executed.

Serious question time:

1. Is this ending going to cause a backlash against GOT, ASOIAF, and the other GRRM-related properties in the works?

2. Is audience/fan reaction to the ending going to kill the prequel(s)? 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

The last episode should really be titled "Game of Thrones."

It's just too fitting and Tyrion's execution for treason would encapsulate more than him and his death. Every ambitious person who has vied for the throne, Tywin with Cersei and her bastard children, the Tyrells, Tyrion, all lost. 

Ned Stark won the game without trying to play it. 

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. Is this ending going to cause a backlash against GOT, ASOIAF, and the other GRRM-related properties in the works?

I don't think so. Book readers are book readers and a bunch have stopped watching the show. And the story is different. Tyrion may meet the same end as his show counterpart, but how he gets there will be different. I am looking forward to Winds of Winter, if GRRM wants to put his foot to the accelerator and give us something.

Edited September 8, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[cambridgeguy]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

If Dany had not gone, Jon would be dead. Tyrion was not ready to risk their war campaign against Cersei to save a few men. Dany was. That's why Dany is a hero and Tyrion is not. 

And here's what I've always wondered.  If Jon was an ugly old man would Dany have hopped on her dragon and flown north? 

[Eyes High]

36 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The last episode should really be titled "Game of Thrones."

It's just too fitting and Tyrion's execution for treason would encapsulate more than him and his death. Every ambitious person who has vied for the throne, Tywin with Cersei and her bastard children, the Tyrells, Tyrion, all lost. 

Yes, the nasty, ambitious and scheming horrible bastard abominations Myrcella and Tommen lost, and the utterly passive, completely unambitious and humble Dany, who did nothing whatsoever in pursuit of her claim, won. Exactly so.

Quote

Ned Stark won the game without trying to play it.

Ned Stark did nothing to play the game? He hid Rhaegar Targaryen's son to protect him from Robert for years! If playing keepaway with the bastard of the previous ruling family (I'm guessing Ned never found out about the marriage), whom the current monarch has a vested interest in exterminating, isn't playing the game of thrones, I don't know what is.

Quote

I don't think so. Book readers are book readers and a bunch have stopped watching the show. And the story is different. Tyrion may meet the same end as his show counterpart, but how he gets there will be different.

Yeah, that's the typical hardcore book reader reaction to revelations in the show they don't like: it either won't happen in the books at all, or it will be awesome in the books if it does happen because GRRM. (See also: book readers' reactions to Stannis' decision to burn Shireen.) There will also be fewer book readers who will be shocked by the news, since Book Tyrion is much more ambiguous than his show version. However, book readers make up only a tiny portion of GOT's audience, and hardcore book readers (many of whom have already bailed on the show) less so.

So if among the non-book reader portion of GOT's audience--aka the vast majority--there is a huge outcry about the ending, I don't see any way in which it won't affect not only GOT, but ASOIAF. All things GOT-related--including not only ASOIAF and the prequels, but anything GRRM has written, as well as all the associated merch--will take a hit. Just as GRRM has benefited from the popularity of GOT, I have no doubt he will take an enormous hit financially if there is a backlash to the ending. Hard to feel sorry for him, though. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I'm getting HIMYM vibes from this development, to be honest. That finale also had a twist which made sense in the overall context of the show but did so in a way that threw a very beloved character under the bus. The backlash to the HIMYM finale killed a planned spinoff, and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened here.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

13 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

And here's what I've always wondered.  If Jon was an ugly old man would Dany have hopped on her dragon and flown north? 

Yes. Jorah was there too, not just Jon. Geez, can we give the girl some credit? And the same can be applied for Jon. If Daenarys was an old crone with saggy titties, would he have been so taken with her? They are both attractive people, can we not diminish either of them please by just making them only about their looks? That is so insulting. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by GraceK

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Maybe, but still Peter will get his Emmy-winning speech 

First thing I thought yesterday :))

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, the nasty, ambitious and scheming horrible bastard abominations Myrcella and Tommen lost, and the utterly passive, completely unambitious and humble Dany, who did nothing whatsoever in pursuit of her claim, won. Exactly so.

Might wanna tone down the sarcasm there and be more civil in your replies. Please tell me where I called Myrcella and Tommen abominations. If anything they are the victims of their family's ambitions. Cersei put her bastard children on the throne out of ambition. The realm knew what those kids were, but it didn't stop the Tyrells from wanting in on this. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[tangerine95]

I think the backlash depends on how they pull it off.Imo they already kinda didn't do enough to set it up in the sense that if the betrayal is motivated by  jealousy,then the scenes pointing out Tyrion has romantic feelings for Dany should have been kept.I'm not sure many people,especially casual viewers picked up on that even with that last shot of him looking sad on the boat.And he's a lot less of a grey character than in the books and set up as a sort of moral compass in addition to being a fan fave since season 1 so idk how that will be going over with the audience tbh.It could get pretty bad and leave people just upset and like it was totally out of character for show Tyrion.I hope it's done well and not like the WF storyline in season 7 where it was a mess for the sake of a twist.

Edited September 8, 2018 by tangerine95

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Might wanna tone down the sarcasm there and be more civil in your replies. Please tell me where I called Myrcella and Tommen abominations. If anything they are the victims of their family's ambitions.

You lumped Myrcella and Tommen, two individuals who had not an ambitious bone in their bodies in either the books or the show, in with the "ambitious" people who vied for the throne and lost, and you couldn't even be bothered to call them by their names but instead called them "bastards." 

You also wrongly suggested that every ambitious person who vied for the throne lost, and we now know that to be untrue, since one of the undeniably ambitious characters (Dany) is poised to end up on the throne if Friki is correct in his beliefs about the ending...unless of course you think Dany isn't ambitious and never vied for the throne, and I'd be very curious to see how you justified such a claim.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Serious question time:

1. Is this ending going to cause a backlash against GOT, ASOIAF, and the other GRRM-related properties in the works?

2. Is audience/fan reaction to the ending going to kill the prequel(s)? 

1. To be honest I think the ending will be rather popular if it's done well (in a way RW is popular). I think majority will be happy that the GoT succeeded in surprising them one last time, they will quote "if you think this has a happy ending..." many times and say it's in true spirit of GoT to kill it's most popular character at the end. D&D's critics who said the show is now predictable and fan service will be shut and GoT will establish it's legacy an unpredictable show forever

2. No

I think ending with Jon and Dany ruling, with Tyrion as their Hand would cause a much stronger backlash.

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

in the show they excised most of her arc for shock;

I think they did not excised anything. She has her own story in the show because Show!characters aren't (and never were) Book!characters.

[nikma]

Joe Dempsie comment that we will like the ending in retrospect and that comment from VFX guy that "this is GoT and it needed to happen" now make far more sense. Also Emilia's comment or Maisie's comments about the ending now make sense. 

[OhOkayWhat]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

1. To be honest I think the ending will be rather popular if it's done well (in a way RW is popular). I think majority will be happy that the GoT succeeded in surprising them one last time, they will quote "if you think this has a happy ending..." many times and say it's in true spirit of GoT to kill it's most popular character at the end. D&D's critics who said the show is now predictable and fan service will be shut and GoT will establish it's legacy an unpredictable show forever

Yes. I really doubt there will be any real backlash from the mayority of the audience.

[Colorful Mess]

I think Friki probably got 1% of correct information and 99% of his other stuff is speculation. He did say he would betray the Starks in his video but even that could be off. The only thing I believe is that Tyrion dies. I can't speak for the GA but Tyrion's death would not shock me and I would rejoice because I despise book Tyrion. He's always going to try and play for the side that benefits him the most. I hope he gets tried by the Starks for a war of aggression against Westeros, patricide, and homicide. The last two charges would be fitting because Cregan Stark sought justice for the king's murder even though the victim was on the opposing side. 

[OhOkayWhat]

53 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I hope it's done well and not like the WF storyline in season 7 where it was a mess for the sake of a twist.

It was rushed, yes; but I disagree with the "mess" part. At least it made lots of sense and it was consistent with Arya, Sansa, Bran and Petyr characters.

[tangerine95]

15 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It was rushed, yes; but I disagree with the "mess" part. At least it made lots of sense and it was consistent with Arya, Sansa, Bran and Petyr characters.

It made sense to me that Sansa and Arya would argue and it wouldn't be a perfect relationship once they reunited but I felt like going as far to considering killing each other,Sansa actually getting manipulated by LF until she went to Bran was really for the sake of the plot than the characters.And it was pretty confusing imo,you still have people who aren't sure if it was planned all along to trick LF or were they really fighting because they deleted the scene where Sansa goes to Bran.

[nikma]

10 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Sansa actually getting manipulated by LF until she went to Bran

That's not true. Sansa went to Bran when she realized what LF is doing and  wanted more evidence against LF. 

In leaked outline she had a line where she said to LF in his last scene that Arya and Sansa were discussing his behavior for some time, this is before she went to Bran. 

I think D&D's mistake was that they didn't use that last scene with Sansa and Arya to explain what happened behind the scenes. It was too vague. For example in outline moment when Sansa realized what LF was doing was when he tried to manipulate her to send Brienne away. And she did that, so LF would think he succeded. She needed to say this in E7. They left too many blanks. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by nikma

[tangerine95]

10 minutes ago, nikma said:

That's not true. Sansa went to Bran when she realized what LF is doing and  wanted more evidence against LF. 

In leaked outline she had a line where she said to LF in his last scene that Arya and Sansa were discussing his behavior for some time, this is before she went to Bran. 

I think D&D's mistake was that they didn't use that last scene with Sansa and Arya to explain what happened behind the scenes. It was too vague. For example in outline moment when Sansa realized what LF was doing was when he tried to manipulate her to send Brienne away. And she did that, so LF would think he succeded. She needed to say this in E7. They left too many blanks. 

That's exactly what I mean,it was left pretty confusing.I thought she was manipulated by him longer than that.They really should have cleared it up,I agree.

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

That's exactly what I mean,it was left pretty confusing.I thought she was manipulated by him longer than that.They really should have cleared it up,I agree.

And last scene with Arya was perfect  oportunity for that. The shock effect would still remain, but we would get an explanation.

[OhOkayWhat]

22 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

but I felt like going as far to considering killing each other

We don't know that. It is left to the audience to decide what happened.

 

17 minutes ago, nikma said:

Sansa went to Bran when she realized what LF is doing and  wanted more evidence against LF. 

That is what i think happened. 

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

In S2 and S5 he admited that he was Hand because he likes power. This is sometning that Jon or Ned or Robb would never say.

 

He is much darker in the books, but Tyrion is far from some pure hero in the show.

There's nothing villainous about liking power. It's how you use power that determines where you fall in the scale

[OhOkayWhat]

10 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

They really should have cleared it up

A very valid narrative choice is to leave the audience to decide what happened in a story.

Yet, I felt it was rushed.

Edited September 8, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

A very valid narrative choice is to leave the audience to decide what happened in a story.

Sure when the ambiguity about it make sense in either direction.

What they did at Winterfell did not. We literally have Arya threatening to kill and rip off Sansa's face, lol

[OhOkayWhat]

3 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Sure when the ambiguity about it make sense in either direction.

What they did at Winterfell did not. We literally have Arya threatening to kill and rip off Sansa's face, lol

Or we have Arya playing the game of faces. In fact she tells Sansa (and the audience) that she is doing precisely that.

Once again, it made sense.

Edited September 8, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[Happy Harpy]

I don't think the backlash will be too harsh if there's a love triangle and Tyrion is clearly pushed by his jealousy. There won't be one either if the reasons and the way he betrays make sense. If people feel for Tyrion while thinking he deserves to die, imo the storyline will be a success.

Take Olly. He was a victim of the Wildlings. He thought he was acting for the greater good, he had a valid POV. When he killed Ygritte, it was a "nooo" moment but she killed his family and I don't remember a violent backlash against him. When he killed Jon, he passed the point of no return with the audience: Stabby little shit deserved to die. Same POV, same reasons, completely different reaction.

Look at Tommen. Most people (love to) hate Cersei, but when he took away her only chance to make it and put her life in the hands of the High Sparrow, most reactions went from "ouch" to "little shit" . His death was hugely shocking, but I don't have a feeling that many truly cried over him, although they didn't think he deserved to die. Imo, during a season, D&D detached the audience from the character, stopped making him someone to root for. Failed strategist, milquetoast Tyrion has been getting on some people's nerves. Could be a temporary loss of mojo. Could be the same kind of trick.

Of course, those aren't big characters or fan faves like Tyrion, but the principle is the same.

Last word of Tyrion to Tywin: "I'm your son. I've always been your son." Ominous?

[nikma]

14 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't think the backlash will be too harsh if there's a love triangle and Tyrion is clearly pushed by his jealousy. There won't be one either if the reasons and the way he betrays make sense. If people feel for Tyrion while thinking he deserves to die, imo the storyline will be a success.

And I feel that after S6 and S7 a lot of fans want to be shocked again, they want to be surprised.  There were those who said that S7 was too safe, too predictable. S6 was triumphant for many characters, far more than S7(which was more status quo season IMO), but people wanted something good to happen after 5 seasons of almost constant misery. Fans wanted true victories (not like Joffrey's death that immediately turns into Tyrion's tragedy), they wanted victory without "they won, but...". And they've got that. But after S7 it feels that a lot of fans want bad things to happen again, they are almost nostalgic for those dark moments. 

There were a lot of shocking moments in the last 2 seasons, but nothing close to RW or Ned's death. If done well, Tyrion's death could clearly be in TOP 3 biggest plot twists in this story. I can almost see reviews "GoT ends with the most shocking twist yet", "GoT was true to it's spirit until the very end", "They saved the best for the last",... Again, if they did it well.

[Wouter]

6 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I wonder if the “Tyrion betrayal flashbacks” will include a continuation of the Tyrion / Cersei scene from 7x7 where he presumably makes some sort of deal with her?

This news is also making me think about one of the previous leakers (maybe boatsexbaby?) who said that there would be some kind of explanation for the WW that would bring everything from the start of the show full circle and explain their motives etc. Perhaps there was some confusion because Friki’s spoilers make it sound like Tyrion is getting the big full circle explanation.

It is very unlikely that there is a "big full circle explanation" for Tyrion. It's not like he was always behind the White Walkers or that he was planning to marry Dany and become king from S1. Those full circle explanations should have something to do with the Night King and the behaviour of the WW from the very prologue of the series.

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I thought he brushed it off by saying the production called some actors in Seville, but they didn't film, like Kit (according to him).

Maybe it was someone else though, honestly I'm losing track.

Friki doctor had complete episode summaries a week or so before episodes aired, last year. They were extremely accurate, except for a couple of minor omissions (Sansa telling Brienne off) and there's no denying he had real info. People seem to think it's from someone in the translation team. It's way too early for translators to have any material.

Otherwise, no, I don't remember he ever spoiled anything. He believed some fleakers who were debunked ("mother superior", according to someone at freefolk). His off season videos were seemingly off the mark. To be fair he did say those videos were just theories and not spoilers; it's not his fault if seeing his name, many people assumed they were leaks. But people take things like the "Talking Thrones" BS as real spoilers, so well...

 

Thanks. So unless somebody else remembers an example of Friki having the goods well in advance of the air date of the episodes spoiled, this is kind of a first for Friki. Which IMO means we can't take this spoiler with 100% certainty yet, even if we know Friki is not an anonymous "fleaker" like so many others. But if his usual sources only gave him info a week or so before air date, it's possible his present source is not equally reliable. The way he hyped his own reveal (with the T-shirt and all) also points to Friki wanting a lot of online attention. 

As for the actors of the Waif and Jaqen, it seems very unlikely to me that HBO would call them to Seville (and pay for that) just like that. The most logical reason for being there is that they were needed for filming. 

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"How do you answer these charges...Lord Tyrion?"

If Tyrion is imprisoned after the big reveal scene, then the Dragonpit scene could just be his execution scene, not necessarily a trial. That would avoid a retread of Littlefinger's trial.

But Friki did explicitly claim that it was his trial, didn't he? And the whole thing does stand a chance of being a re-thread from his own S4 trial on the one hand, and from the LF/Sansa machinations in S7 on the other hand.

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I don't think so. Book readers are book readers and a bunch have stopped watching the show. 

 

If Tyrion betrays Dany/Jon and is executed for that, this will make the rounds and probably infect fora like westeros, too. I think it would make a dent, even more so because people who don't watch the show would also miss the context that may be given during S8. Tyrion may be darker in the books, but he is also intelligent and betraying Dany at such a late point seems very unwise.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Wouter

[shireenbamfatheon]

A last minute love triangle is the worst outcome this show can have, and the "ugly, malformed, monstrous dwarf" betraying the beautiful queen because she's fallen in love with the handsome and kind prince would be incredibly tone deaf. I hope to God there's an actual reason for Tyrion's betrayal beyond jealousy. If it's a betrayal for love, let it be his love for Jaime that causes him to change sides, though even that's strange because Jaime's abandoned Cersei (and Euron by association).

The more I think about it the stranger it sounds. So Friki insists that the pit scene is Tyrion's trial and not when they discover his betrayal, but where are Jon and Dany, who are present for the discovery, and more specifically why isn't anyone notable from Team Dany present? Jorah, Varys, Missandei and Grey Worm didn't film with the others from what I understand, so how does that make sense? There's no way Jon and Dany are just sitting on dragon back while judging him during such an emotionally charged moment. They need to be on the ground with him, looking him in the eyes and asking him why. This is, of course, assuming both dragons even survive the Long Night, which is highly dubious. 

I'm glad this spoiler gave us something new to discuss, but it's frustrating how vague it is. It also makes me wonder what NCW loves about the season and how it's everything he could have hoped for. Could the leak about Jaime dying in Brienne's arms be fake? 

[Wouter]

10 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

A last minute love triangle is the worst outcome this show can have, and the "ugly, malformed, monstrous dwarf" betraying the beautiful queen because she's fallen in love with the handsome and kind prince would be incredibly tone deaf. I hope to God there's an actual reason for Tyrion's betrayal beyond jealousy. If it's a betrayal for love, let it be his love for Jaime that causes him to change sides, though even that's strange because Jaime's abandoned Cersei (and Euron by association).

The more I think about it the stranger it sounds. So Friki insists that the pit scene is Tyrion's trial and not when they discover his betrayal, but where are Jon and Dany, who are present for the discovery, and more specifically why isn't anyone notable from Team Dany present? Jorah, Varys, Missandei and Grey Worm didn't film with the others from what I understand, so how does that make sense? There's no way Jon and Dany are just sitting on dragon back while judging him during such an emotionally charged moment. They need to be on the ground with him, looking him in the eyes and asking him why. This is, of course, assuming both dragons even survive the Long Night, which is highly dubious. 
 

Exactly so. Tyrion would also have to develop his jealousy and act on it, right in the middle of a two-front war for survival with the NK and with Cersei and/or Euron. Even if he would be terribly jealous, couldn't he wait with actions until after the NK and Cersei/Euron have ceased being a threat? Even if he wants Jon dead and power for himself, he still should be smart enough to realise those are dire threats to himself as well as to the Starks and Dany.

If he had a multiple books/seasons spanning romantic rivalry with Jon, as apparently was the case in the outline, fine. But as a last-minute thing when the WW are at the gate (or the Golden Company or whatever)?

The only way I see this working is if he does wait and hires the Faceless men to murder Jon, after the war is over and done with. That could be a possible explanation for Jaquen's presence in the dragonpit.

I wonder if Dany would grant Casterly Rock to Sansa (as his wife, at least on paper) then, in an ironic reversal of what Tywin wanted (gaining Winterfell through Sansa's claim). 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Wouter

[shireenbamfatheon]

3 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Exactly so. Tyrion would also have to develop his jealousy and act on it, right in the middle of a two-front war for survival with the NK and with Cersei and/or Euron. Even if he would be terribly jealous, couldn't he wait with actions until after the NK and Cersei/Euron have ceased being a threat? Even if he wants Jon dead and power for himself, he still should be smart enough to realise those are dire threats to himself as well as to the Starks and Dany.

If he had a multiple books/seasons spanning romantic rivalry with Jon, as apparently was the case in the outline, fine. But as a last-minute thing when the WW are at the gate (or the Golden Company or whatever)?

Right? He also stayed completely loyal to Dany after she allied herself with the women who murdered his kid niece in cold blood after he sent Myrcella to Dorne to begin with, and the show barely even touched on that, but her falling for Jon is what pushes him over the edge? Come on. Tyrion is undeniably a Hero™ on the show. Dude is STILL kind to Cersei after everything she's done to him throughout his life, but Dany loving Jon is what pushes him over the edge? I don't believe it. Dinklage said Tyrion loves Jon (after three scenes, but ok), and Tyrion hasn't been portrayed as power-hungry the way his book counterpart is, so a betrayal for the sake of power would be wildly out of character. If it happens, Jaime has to be involved somehow. That's the one thing that's consistent with his character arc.

If his trial is one of the last scenes of the show then his betrayal has to have massive consequences for other major characters and the plot given his own status in the show as one of the leads. If Jon and Dany's absence means he got them killed somehow, then safe to say, this show really will have one of the most controversial endings in television history... Which I could totally see them going for.

[Happy Harpy]

16 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Thanks. So unless somebody else remembers an example of Friki having the goods well in advance of the air date of the episodes spoiled, this is kind of a first for Friki. Which IMO means we can't take this spoiler with 100% certainty yet, even if we know Friki is not an anonymous "fleaker" like so many others. But if his usual sources only gave him info a week or so before air date, it's possible his present source is not equally reliable. The way he hyped his own reveal (with the T-shirt and all) also points to Friki wanting a lot of online attention.

This is where I stand re: those spoilers. Fun to speculate about, but with nothing concrete I'm not taking it as gospel either.

I thought that Tyrion and Varys might commiserate about Dany but in the light of Tyrion going rogue, there could be a rift between them. Varys wants the people safe and I don't think it would matter to him who exactly has Daenerys' ear as long as it's a moderating force. If Tyrion betrays, I doubt that Varys would miss it. If Tyrion killed Varys, his friend, to protect himself or to follow his ambitions, it could be one point of no return. Melisandre's oracle could be mind fuck, could be literal. Wild wild guess: Varys is found dead after the battle of WF. Everybody assumes he was killed by the enemy. The big reveal and trial with flash-backs could be about his death/murder.

[Colorful Mess]

28 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

They need to be on the ground with him, looking him in the eyes and asking him why.

I know. People really think Jon would burn him by dragonback? Like Jon is going to quickly forget everything Ned taught him about justice, after he finds out his parentage? He does everything Dany does now because she teaches him the "Targaryen way?"

I wouldnt take Friki too seriously. Just the way he says "Tyrion is a traitor!" sounds like he's reaching really hard and has made up his mind about something when he has very little info to go on.

[nikma]

14 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Right? He also stayed completely loyal to Dany after she allied herself with the women who murdered his kid niece in cold blood after he sent Myrcella to Dorne to begin with, and the show barely even touched on that, but her falling for Jon is what pushes him over the edge? Come on.

So, do you think white hunt made perfect sense? 

[OhOkayWhat]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

So, do you think white hunt made perfect sense? 

I know you are asking other person, but yes, the wight hunt made sense.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think they did not excised anything. She has her own story in the show because Show!characters aren't (and never were) Book!characters.

See I disagree, Sansa was on arc or very close to it until mid-season 4.

[OhOkayWhat]

18 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Fun to speculate about, but with nothing concrete

I agree.