Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

29 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Eh, I'd be more impressed if these leaks actually told us about the story instead clues about the filming that aren't too difficult to guess. 

I think the closest we got is /BoatsexBaby's leaks--Dany/NK dragon/dragon fight, Jon and Dany's baby is "endgame" (which I assume means Dany survives), Cleganebowl--but /BoatsexBaby by their own admission doesn't know anything about interior shots, so it's all tidbits, guesswork, and parsing cast/crew interviews for every possible crumb of meaning.

We're not going to get another Lads for Season 8 in the spoiler department, but maybe that's for the best...? Even with everything that we know about the overall shape of the season, there's still a lot of room to be surprised.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

27 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

The second that Dany kills one of their enemies Arya will like her. Arya appreciates killing.

She is more complex than that. Also, Arya has a big problem with "authority".

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

We're not going to get another Lads for Season 8 in the spoiler department, but maybe that's for the best...? Even with everything that we know about the overall shape of the season, there's still a lot of room to be surprised.

Honestly, I feel like this time we know (almost) nothing. Or we know mostly obvious stuff.

[shireenbamfatheon]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Jaime telling off Walder Frey, and the fact she had no proof he was in on the Red Wedding, are the reasons why Arya didn't kill off Jaime, imo. .... 

1

She wiped out the entire Frey male line, with no guarantee that every single one of them was in on the Red Wedding. Arya wanted to kill Ilyn Payne for doing his job as an executioner and wanted to kill the Hound for killing Mycah. Realistically, she should have a personal investment where Jaime is concerned considering Jory was like family to her and Jaime and his men injured her father. Plus he (as in his army) also recently killed the Blackfish and he was helping the Freys hold Edmure and his son captive. It makes zero sense that Arya would dismiss him as an enemy. He's one of the people the Starks all have very valid reasons to hate. 

I only mention Dany because the discussion on here has constantly touched on how mean the Northerners will be to Dany. We're not exactly covering new ground here and it just feels like we're going in circles.

I don't know, the NK gaining a dragon and only managing to cross the Wall as a result of that seems to be a pretty big reason. Jon not being in contact with the North for months and bending the knee after getting an out by Dany, refusing to take Cersei's offer of an independent kingdom because of his decision to wage war against her with Dany following the Long Night (and, really, are the North really going to want to get dragged into another war fighting ice zombies), his relationship with Dany which should make them question whether he's comprised, the reveal that he's actually a Targaryen which will make it look like a Targ handing the North to another Targ (without his siblings' consent), Dany's reputation and handling of prisoners of war which would make them wary of what kind of queen she'd be etc. It seems like they have plenty of reasons to be cross with Jon and Dany, at least initially. 

 

7 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The onus shouldnt be on the Northern Lords to stop their bitching. They aren't the main characters. The focus is on how Dany handles people who refuse to be her subjects. I also wonder why the Northerners should be impressed by Dany if she's doing what she should be doing anyway, queen or no. Dany should be content being a hero without people recognizing her as queen. If thats not enough for her, then she can bite it for all I care.

It would be better if she didn't have MIssandei introduce her as the rightful queen of 56 titles, but I have a feeling that will happen because she's done terrible PR so far. It would also be better if she didn't agree to take Jon's title away. It would be even better if she just entered the situation as an ally instead of their overlord. If this potential conflict is just going to get brushed under the rug then I dont know why they wrote it this way. If Sansa thinks she's a threat...she'll stay a threat. Threats dont go away on this show.

4

Yup. The Northerners have shown themselves to be petty and fickle (and traumatized) on the show, but it's not like Team Dany have shown themselves to be competent at diplomacy or PR. Like I said, plenty of potential for in-fighting, conflict and reluctant alliances. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

I would love to see Lord Glover start bitching about Dany and once the words “ Foreign Whore” leave his mouth for Drogon to Roar right in his face. ???? so much satisfaction 

I'm expecting some form of this , though if Danny wants the North to back her, it be better if Sansa orders it, so as Jon and Danny stay out of this portion of Northern politics.

I think it be less of a problem, this way.

Part of Danny's problem is she too easily falls on her Dragons to get results from people who disagree with her, it's my main reason why I still sit the fence with her.

Sansa knows they're fickle, and she needs to show she can act without LF around.

I really think the North  will hinge on how Danny and Sansa interact, they have too much in common.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

She is more complex than that. Also, Arya has a big problem with "authority".

Honestly, I feel like this time we know (almost) nothing. Or we know mostly obvious stuff.

At this point, based on what is known, it sounds like for the most part and certainly among the main cast, all the good guys live and all the bad guys die. So the only big question left for me is whether or not we get a Targ restoration.

[bubble sparkly]

I think a Targ restoration is 100% certain based on the anvils from s7. D&D were not subtle and even joked about Jon’s desire to impregnate Dany on the commentary. Again, that doesn’t guarantee that DJ both survive, although I am pulling for them to both live.

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think a Targ restoration is 100% certain based on the anvils from s7. D&D were not subtle and even joked about Jon’s desire to impregnate Dany on the commentary. Again, that doesn’t guarantee that DJ both survive, although I am pulling for them to both live.

By Targ restoration, I didn't mean Dany and Jon having a baby together, I meant an endgame with Jon and Dany (and baby, I guess) together on the Iron Throne.

[GraceK]

I think anyone who at this point refuses to see Dany as a hero is just blinded by hate. When S8 rolls around and Dany doesn’t turn out to be the “mad queen, baby sacrificer, bringer of death,” I will laugh my ass off at all those people determined to see her as a villain. I cannot wait for all the Jonsas , and the Danys haters to weep in despair. I will light a cigarette and laugh my ass off at all these people who keep insisting that Dany will go all mad queen or that Jon and Sansa are endgame. 

[Happy Harpy]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We're not going to get another Lads for Season 8 in the spoiler department, but maybe that's for the best...? Even with everything that we know about the overall shape of the season, there's still a lot of room to be surprised.

 

Not the best for me. I hate surprises, and S7 was heaven for me. I could enjoy the episodes and pay attention to details on first viewing instead of worrying for my faves or being distracted by shocking moments. And I'm in the camp of those who loved that season.

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

She wiped out the entire Frey male line, with no guarantee that every single one of them was in on the Red Wedding. [...]

I only mention Dany because the discussion on here has constantly touched on how mean the Northerners will be to Dany. We're not exactly covering new ground here and it just feels like we're going in circles.

I don't know, the NK gaining a dragon and only managing to cross the Wall as a result of that seems to be a pretty big reason. Jon not being in contact with the North for months and bending the knee after getting an out by Dany, refusing to take Cersei's offer of an independent kingdom because of his decision to wage war against her with Dany following the Long Night (and, really, are the North really going to want to get dragged into another war fighting ice zombies), his relationship with Dany which should make them question whether he's comprised, the reveal that he's actually a Targaryen which will make it look like a Targ handing the North to another Targ (without his siblings' consent), Dany's reputation and handling of prisoners of war which would make them wary of what kind of queen she'd be etc. It seems like they have plenty of reasons to be cross with Jon and Dany, at least initially.

Arya did know they were in on it, because as she said the faces allow her to know a person's thoughts and during the scene, she pointed explicitly that those were all the Freys "who meant a damn thing" and that all of them, "helped [me] slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding".

But precisely, I wasn't talking only about Dany but Dany and Jon, and the Northerners haven't been kind to him either.

As for the NK getting a dragon, it's crying over spilled milk (for the sake of argument since Dany isn't to blame here for me); if Dany didn't go the consequences would have been worse, and the audience knows it because Jon+Hound+Beric have a role to play in the war of the Dawn. Cersei had never any intention to ally even if Jon bent the knee, and the audience knows it since she stated it explicitly. The Northerners have no choice fighting ice zombies because said ice zombies are invading the North, and they wouldn't have had a choice to be in another war afterwards anyway since Cersei intends to finish off the survivors of the war of the Dawn, and the audience knows it, too, because she stated it explicitly, too. After they got a little taste of the way the Ironmen* and the Boltons treated prisoners of war and their enemies or even simple vassals, logic would command the Northerners find Dany rather magnanimous. As for Jon, it's the guy who risked everything to try and save his little brother on the battlefield and spilled his blood on the same battlefield to take the North back from the Bolton (unlike, gee, most of the Northern lords) it should speak enough of his character and loyalty.

That's why imo there is no legit or important reason for the Northeners, Tyrion, Varys or Sansa to bitch. As I said, I expect distrust at first, but there's being cautious and there's being obnoxiously stubborn when it isn't the time or place. The lords and Sansa talking of the North independence (=their own power) or Tyrion worrying about his influence on Dany or Varys worrying about her methods while the NK is changing the people of Westeros into ice zombies by the thousands and Cersei is preparing to strike them while they're down,  would make them look tone deaf at best. I like situations like the battle of the loot train where I root for one camp while hoping the other makes it anyway, but as a viewer, with the facts I have,  knowing that Jon and Dany try to help and save the continent, I don't see how I can root for the naysayers or not be annoyed by them in this particular one.

*Theon should to meet more trouble than Dany and Jon -unless, I guess, he arrives during the battle of WF with reinforcement. He's the one who directly and intentionally caused the fall of WF and the North.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Dezzdemona]

I've spent the last week, off and on, catching up on this thread.  First of all, thank you for all the spoilers and speculation; it's been fascinating to read.  I'm reserving judgment on the spoilers for now, but I have been intrigued by the various descriptions given by the various actors and other participants.   I have a very different view of some of the characters than some, so I'll start there.

 

Sansa - She learned her political theories from Cercei and LF, both massively ambitious, devious and unscrupulous.  She has been consistently at odds with Jon.   She was quick to claim credit (to Arya) for retaking WF.  "John LOST the battle."  She goes on to say that it was she who enlisted the help of the Vale, that they fought for HER, and that's what won the war.   When Jon refuses to remove the Umbers and Carstarks from their ancestral homes, she says, "So there's to be no punishment for treason, no reward for loyalty?"  That sounded like Lannister-style politics.    She does not admire Jon's very different approach, and seems increasingly jealous of his position as TKITN.  I think she believes herself to be much smarter and a better natural leader than Jon.   I don't believe for one minute that she will accept Dany, not as Queen, not as Jon's love, not in any manner.  She will pretend to, but it will be a false face she wears.   Behind the scenes, I think she will do everything possible to undermine Jon.   I think she will fully embrace her political ambitions, and they will win out over the sweet and loving side of her character.  I suspect, she will become more scheming and devious as the season progresses.  She may have an ally in Bran because he seems perturbed to know that Jon is getting involved with Dany and insistent that he has to know his true origins as soon as possible.

 

Tyrion -  I do not think Sansa will have an ally in Tyrion.  In fact, I think he will be the first to see the falseness of her seeming acceptance of Dany.   He had a lifetime to recognize the Lannister mindset, and I think he'll be shocked by how political and ambitious she's become, so different from the girl he knew.   Lannister style was all he knew until Dany, but I believe his time with her has been transformative for him.  He embraces a different way of ruling now.   I would not be surprised if he, at some point, seeks to assassinate Sansa.  Certainly, I see no possible pairing of the two as I think he will find the new Sansa repellent, and most importantly, dangerous to Dany. 

 

Arya -  She's a mystery to me at this point.  Ruthless to the core, but which side would she choose between Jon and Sansa?  I think she would choose Jon, and she has no prior grudge with Dany, so I don't think that pairing would be an impediment for her.   She might be the one who finally assassinates Sansa.  I'm not ruling that out.

 

Jon - I think Tyrion will try to warn Jon that Sansa is being false and is a danger to Dany, but Jon will not believe him.   He will be loyal to Sansa, and it will cost him dearly.   I'm boggled at the spoiler that has him fighting to the death with Grey Worm.  What???

 

So much to speculate about, and still so many months in which to drive ourselves crazy with guessing.   I'll stop with the above.  I'm curious to know if anyone else is seeing Sansa as a potential snake in the garden, so to speak.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Dezzdemona

[bubble sparkly]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

By Targ restoration, I didn't mean Dany and Jon having a baby together, I meant an endgame with Jon and Dany (and baby, I guess) together on the Iron Throne.

Ah gotcha.  Although I do think the IT will probably be destroyed, either in the KL battle or purposely as a kind of "the past sucked, so we are destroying this evil chair to symbolise a better future" type deal. 

[Colorful Mess]

Yes, to Targaryen restoration. We'll see Jon at a table, king, with Arya to his left and Sansa to his right. Jon's marriage status unknown. We never see a wedding so its ambiguous and all we know is that Aegon and his sister-cousins are ruling Westeros from a new castle. The North and King's Landing are destroyed. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Ah gotcha.  Although I do think the IT will probably be destroyed, either in the KL battle or purposely as a kind of "the past sucked, so we are destroying this evil chair to symbolise a better future" type deal. 

Sure, but if Jon and/or Dany end up ruling a united Westeros without altering the power structure at all, they will be essentially sitting the Iron Throne, whether or not the physical IT still exists. 

It remains to be seen what (if anything) Dany meant by “breaking the wheel,” and whether that has any bearing on the endgame. I suspect that the reason the writers have been so vague about Dany’s plans for Westeros is that Dany won’t be around to implement any of them, but we’ll see.

[Dezzdemona]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but if Jon and/or Dany end up ruling a united Westeros without altering the power structure at all, they will be essentially sitting the Iron Throne, whether or not the physical IT still exists. 

It remains to be seen what (if anything) Dany meant by “breaking the wheel,” and whether that has any bearing on the endgame. I suspect that the reason the writers have been so vague about Dany’s plans for Westeros is that Dany won’t be around to implement any of them, but we’ll see.

One way to break the wheel would be to abolish the Iron Throne altogether.   Let the 7 kingdoms exist as fully autonomous realms, each with its own king or queen.   Have some kind of central council or confederation, with representation from each kingdom, charged with settling disputes.  Possibly charged as well to call on the kingdoms to unite against a common enemy like TAOTD or a foreign invader.  Do any of them have the wisdom to seek that kind of solution, or are they all doomed to keep repeating the cycle wherein the ambitious and powerful can't help but try to rule them all?

 

One quick speculation about Arya.   It occurred to me that a "shocking" development in the finale would be if we learned that Arya had been wearing the face of one of the key players for some period of time.   That would be mind blowing, but they've laid all the ground work for something like that.  She explained how it works to Sansa last season so we've been forewarned, in a manner of speaking.  Maybe she steps in for a fallen Jon to see the last battle through or some such.   Maybe she'll have been standing in for somebody else for several episodes...    Was it Sophie who said her ending effed her up?    Imagine if she learned she'd been dead for the last three episodes and had had no clue.   Short-term or long, such a masquerade would be a cool twist.    Completely diabolical, but cool.    Or maybe I'm just a sick and twisted woman!  I'm allowing for that possibility.  I think I will definitely need alcohol to accompany that last episode.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Dezzdemona

[WindyNights]

Nikolaj on the ending:

I wrote the writers when I finished reading and just said, “I don’t think you could’ve done a better job at finishing this story.” To me, it was very satisfying but also very surprising and all the things that I was hoping for. It still made sense. It wasn’t like one of those where the killer is suddenly revealed in the last act and you go, “Oh! I didn’t see that coming.” Here, they’ve done a really, really good job.

 

http://funnylovelyinternet.in/nikolaj-coster-waldau-entertains-some-crucial-game-of-thrones-theories-ahead-of-season-8/

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Nikolaj on the ending:

I wrote the writers when I finished reading and just said, “I don’t think you could’ve done a better job at finishing this story.” To me, it was very satisfying but also very surprising and all the things that I was hoping for. It still made sense. It wasn’t like one of those where the killer is suddenly revealed in the last act and you go, “Oh! I didn’t see that coming.” Here, they’ve done a really, really good job.

 

http://funnylovelyinternet.in/nikolaj-coster-waldau-entertains-some-crucial-game-of-thrones-theories-ahead-of-season-8/

“All the things I was hoping for”? NCW hates Dany, but a number of actors who love Dany have expressed satisfaction with the ending, so I don’t know that much can be read into that.

[Happy Harpy]

15 hours ago, Dezzdemona said:

So much to speculate about, and still so many months in which to drive ourselves crazy with guessing.   I'll stop with the above.  I'm curious to know if anyone else is seeing Sansa as a potential snake in the garden, so to speak.

 

You'd have asked me that last question before 7x07, I'd have agreed it was a possibility. I felt sorry for Sansa when terrible things happened to her but I never trusted her, because tigers don't change their stripes -which is why I found it necessary for Arya to get an answer to the question, did she learn from her bad choices and was she able to be loyal to the Starks? Her answer was to put LF on trial and to choose her family over her ambition of being QITN.

OTOH, at the end of 6x10 I'd have sworn that Jaime would turn against Cersei in 7x01. Her Mad King stunt + causing Tommen's suicide + the look he gave her during her coronation, I expected a massive nuclear blowup. And yet, he spent another season so far up her ass that by 7x03 I despaired that Sam would need to surgically remove him from there at one point, in order to catch up with the books. Could Sansa and Arya's peaceful conversation be misleading in the same way?

It depends on one factor. Was Sansa intended by GRRM as an eternal foil, or as the black sheep who eventually finds its place in the flock? Imo, and although she'll probably keep her conceited and entitled sides because tigers, stripes and all (YMMV) I'd say there's nine chances out of ten she's now part of the wolf pack.

It would be interesting to see Tyrion defend loyally Dany, vs Sansa and her misgivings about her. However, I don't think that Tyrion is so far up Dany's ass that he'd abhor someone who's dangerous to her, based on his attitude to Cersei during their tête-à-tête in 7x07. Tyrion murdered Shae, I don't see him murdering his maybe still wife. I don't see either Arya assassinating Sansa, except as a mercy killing and anyway based on filming spoilers, this isn't likely.

I don't think that Bran was perturbed by Jon's involvement with Dany. He wanted Jon to know the truth about his parentage before he could see Jon and Dany on the boat (I like to think he didn't and it was just a voiceover for the audience, LOL). He just knew that Jon went to seek an ally in Dany, and they were on their way to WF, thanks to a message. So imo if he was eager, it derivated from Jon being a Targ; and probably in connection with fighting the NK since Bran was often, if not permanently, showed observing him during S7.

Arya will always choose Jon over Sansa -big reason why LF wanted to get rid of her, and he led Sansa to say it aloud. I don't think there's one person in Westeros, dead or alive, whom she'd choose over Jon. She trusts his judgement, no question asked. Evidence: I doubt she heard one positive word about Jon's expedition to Dragonstone since her return to WF (Davos was the only one who wholeheartedly supported it) and yet, she wanted to get rid of those criticizing him and threatening to overthrow him, without hesitation.

Jon and Grey Worm fighting to death is no spoiler and comes from a fleaker, IIRC. Still IIRC, the only legit sources so far were the photos taken on set and some concrete filming info from a reddit user, Boatsexbaby. (I even exclude the plot info given by those sources).

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Nikolaj on the ending:

I wrote the writers when I finished reading and just said, “I don’t think you could’ve done a better job at finishing this story.” To me, it was very satisfying but also very surprising and all the things that I was hoping for. It still made sense. It wasn’t like one of those where the killer is suddenly revealed in the last act and you go, “Oh! I didn’t see that coming.” Here, they’ve done a really, really good job.

 

http://funnylovelyinternet.in/nikolaj-coster-waldau-entertains-some-crucial-game-of-thrones-theories-ahead-of-season-8/

Seeing to how big a shipper he is, Brienne and Jaime hooking up, surviving, marrying, and having a dozen formidable golden warrior cubs confirmed :)

Edited August 31, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[GrailKing]

17 hours ago, Dezzdemona said:

Sansa - She learned her political theories from Cercei and LF, both massively ambitious, devious and unscrupulous.  She has been consistently at odds with Jon.   She was quick to claim credit (to Arya) for retaking WF.  "John LOST the battle."  She goes on to say that it was she who enlisted the help of the Vale, that they fought for HER, and that's what won the war.   When Jon refuses to remove the Umbers and Carstarks from their ancestral homes, she says, "So there's to be no punishment for treason, no reward for loyalty?"  That sounded like Lannister-style politics.    She does not admire Jon's very different approach, and seems increasingly jealous of his position as TKITN.  I think she believes herself to be much smarter and a better natural leader than Jon.   I don't believe for one minute that she will accept Dany, not as Queen, not as Jon's love, not in any manner.  She will pretend to, but it will be a false face she wears.   Behind the scenes, I think she will do everything possible to undermine Jon.   I think she will fully embrace her political ambitions, and they will win out over the sweet and loving side of her character.  I suspect, she will become more scheming and devious as the season progresses.  She may have an ally in Bran because he seems perturbed to know that Jon is getting involved with Dany and insistent that he has to know his true origins as soon as possible.

Jon did loose the BOTB- he was given a choice, a terrible choice and got taken out of his plan he was tactfully out maneuvered by a person who doesn't fight fair.

Davos told him it was important that Ramsey charged them, Sansa said Ramsey is going to screw with you, he's not honorable, and he did.

Sansa did win the BOTB, she learned her brother Robb  screwed up badly she implored Jon to look for more men, he refused. Was it pride, fear of the winter setting in a combination of both?

Sansa knows how the enemy is, she also knows the Devil that is LF, and the Devil had what they needed, Sansa acted pragmatically, Sansa realized honor and playing fair isn't getting her, Jon, Davos and Tormond victory, she either does the letter or for sure they die .

What Sansa stated about giving houses to people who supported Jon wasn't wrong, it's normally done that way, it's not just Lannister politics. Jon had a slightly better argument. They also could have assign a older person to rule those castles until those kids came of age, or marry them to a Jon Sansa supporter, they were both right.  

It's not that she doesn't admire his approach, she point blank told him he was good at his job, but he's playing like Ned and Robb; and they died !

Honor has a place in war, but so does deceit, there's not one war won on honor alone in history as far as I know.

I don't think she's jealous of Jon as much as we think if at all, she wants him to value what she has , she may feel her way plays better, she may feel her ideas have validity , she may want recognition ( which Jon already acknowledged in 7-2 ) she's using her experience to keep her, Jon and Winterfell safe, and she achieved it, Jon's coming home to Soldiers with proper armor a decent food store (though Sansa's gonna shit with what he brings back ) Winterfell on a war footing, ready for refugees.

Sansa is definitely out performing Cersei Lannister.

What she learned from Cersei was how NOT to wield power, what she learned from Margery and QOT was how to keep the people happy, from her parents, how to rule and don't hide bad things from your kids, what she learned from Davos and Jon, how to speak and leadership; and what she learned from LF, all his lessons were useful, but the power of ruling isn't necessarily in a King or Queen, but the people behind them. 

Where did you get the idea Bran is perturbed with Jon? Bran is above any type of emotions and he and Sansa will go against Jon? 

Sansa isn't going to trust Danny, she doesn't know Danny except what came through the grapevine and her family past history  some of which is false, but she isn't the only one who's missing this info. Danny's going to have to earn Sansa's trust and rightfully so, Danny bringing 100,000  foreign soldiers and 2 WMD and Sansa will also be busy trying to keep Jon's northern alliance together, any mistrust will be short lived ; Danny and Sansa have way more in common then Sansa and Cersei.

Arya isn't killing her sister, (at least not on purpose ) so no.

It was Emilia Clarke that said the ending effed her up.

Edited August 31, 2018 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

/EveryFckngChicken, one the stalwarts of /Freefolk, said that they saw social media posts from crew members saying that they didn’t like the ending, although the crew members didn’t say what the ending was or why they disliked it.

Between this and the careful cast/crew interviews cautioning that not everyone is going to like the ending, etc. etc., it sounds more and more likely that the ending is going to fall short of the mark.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

I'm feeling pretty good about the ending, but that's because in a lot of NCW's interviews I find myself agreeing with his thoughts on the show, and considering how he made his problems with season 7 pretty clear, I trust him when he says he loves Season 8. But however the show ends it is going to be divisive, even amongst the cast. Too many people are invested at this point for everyone to be ok with how things go. 

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I'm feeling pretty good about the ending, but that's because in a lot of NCW's interviews I find myself agreeing with his thoughts on the show, and considering how he made his problems with season 7 pretty clear, I trust him when he says he loves Season 8.

The problem with that is that NCW's complaints are pretty Jaime-centric. He hated S7 because he hated Jaime's S7 arc. It could very well be that Jaime's arc is resolved satisfactorily--he fucks Brienne and dies gloriously throttling Cersei--while the rest of the ending is pure dogshit.

I went through a list of "worst series finales," and it seems like the offenders, and it always seems like the same offenders--Seinfeld, the original Roseanne, How I Met Your Mother, Dexter, LOST, Quantum Leap, and Battlestar Galactica--as well as the shows that have sufficiently polarizing endings that they wind up on best and worst series finales lists--The Sopranos, Mad Men, etc.--fall into a few recognizable categories:

1. Endings that undermine or make a mockery out of the entire show.

2. Self-consciously clever or pretentious endings.

3. Main characters who've spent the entire show doing terrible things not being punished.

It really has nothing to do with how many characters live or die (the series finale of Six Feet Under, which killed off the entire cast, albeit over a 50-year period of flashforwards, is considered one of the best series finales ever, and the Breaking Bad finale killed off a bunch of characters). It's whether there's a moment that makes the audience go "Are you fucking kidding me?"

[whateverdgaf]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The problem with that is that NCW's complaints are pretty Jaime-centric. He hated S7 because he hated Jaime's S7 arc. It could very well be that Jaime's arc is resolved satisfactorily--he fucks Brienne and dies gloriously throttling Cersei--while the rest of the ending is pure dogshit.

In several interviews NCW said he felt all the pieces fit and was talking about the show as a whole.  He outright says he told D&D he didn't think they could end the story better. Although his criticisms were Jaime specific, he was willing to make criticisms. So when he compliments the season as a whole, he can be trusted. And I disagree that Jaime dying strangling Cersei and vindicating their rather toxic view that they will die together would be all that satisfactory for NCW. He is all about Jaime moving on from Cersei and getting away from her. He actually describes the theory as being 'too obvious', which isn't in line with the brave and surprising ending that is being hyped. https://www.bustle.com/p/nikolaj-coster-waldau-shoots-down-a-popular-game-of-thrones-fan-theory-about-cerseis-death-40470

Edited August 31, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

In several interviews NCW said he felt all the pieces fit and was talking about the show as a whole.  He outright says he told D&D he didn't think they could end the story better. Although his criticisms were Jaime specific, he was willing to make criticisms. So when he compliments the season as a whole, he can be trusted.

Can he? He's still promoting the show. And which is more trustworthy, the comments of an actor hyping the show or the comments of crew members privately expressing their views?

Even assuming that NCW's comments can be taken wholly at face value, if the ending really is as superlative as NCW claims, wouldn't the crew members by and large agree?

[whateverdgaf]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Can he? He's still promoting the show. And which is more trustworthy, the comments of an actor hyping the show or the comments of crew members privately expressing their views?

Even assuming that NCW's comments can be taken wholly at face value, if the ending really is as superlative as NCW claims, wouldn't the crew members by and large agree?

I think he can if he has already voiced issues he has had with the show. He was promoting the show then as much as he is now.

Looking at the fandom and seeing how divided it is over characters and theories about the end, I think it was always going to be a case of some fans will love it and some fans will hate. I'm quite glad the writers seem to be embracing this instead of trying to please everyone and play it safe.

Edited August 31, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[bubble sparkly]

If the s8 ending is universally panned, I wonder how that would impact the spinoff? It seems the reaction to the spinoff that received the pilot order was lukewarm at best anyway.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Between this and the careful cast/crew interviews cautioning that not everyone is going to like the ending, etc. etc., it sounds more and more likely that the ending is going to fall short of the mark.

If the 'mark' is that the ending will universally please everyone, I think it's kind of impossible to hit that 'mark.' Hell, fans who love the book even today express disappointment in, say, the ending of Little Women - to grab the first example that comes to mind. Doesn't mean the ending is a failure - just that in the condition of ardently invested fandom, disappointing some fans is unavoidable.

[shireenbamfatheon]

I'm not sure how you got "OMG evil Daenerys will reveal herself to be The One True Villain of the series so Jonsa can defeat her through the power of love and become the endgame couple they were always meant to be" from "the Northerners have valid reasons to be wary of Dany without them coming across as slut-shaming misogynistic traitors", but it doesn't surprise me one bit since criticism of Dany is always met by similar sentiments on these boards.

Seeing how enthusiastic NCW is of the upcoming season makes me hopeful that there's more to the end than a Targaryen restoration.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think he can if he has already voiced issues he has had with the show. He was promoting the show then as much as he is now.

Looking at the fandom and seeing how divided it is over characters and theories about the end, I think it was always going to be a case of some fans will love it and some fans will hate. I'm quite glad the writers seem to be embracing this instead of trying to please everyone and play it safe.

Yes, but crew members aren't really "the fandom" or "fans." They're not passionately invested nerds who live and breathe this stuff with capital-O Opinions about What Should Happen; they're just Joe Schmoes who have a job to do. If they don't like the ending, that's telling.

33 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

If the s8 ending is universally panned, I wonder how that would impact the spinoff?

It will kill it. This happened with the planned How I Met Your Mother spinoff. (Just as well, probably, since Greta Gerwig was set to play the lead and she's gone on to bigger and better things.)

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, but crew members aren't really "the fandom" or "fans." They're not passionately invested nerds who live and breathe this stuff with capital-O Opinions about What Should Happen; they're just Joe Schmoes who have a job to do. If they don't like the ending, that's telling.

Not really, we have no context or explanations why they dislike the ending, how much they liked the show in the first place, what they think constitutes a good ending etc... And this is all hearsay anyway. It's nothing to really invest too much in.

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Seeing how enthusiastic NCW is of the upcoming season makes me hopeful that there's more to the end than a Targaryen restoration.

Oh, yes. NCW haaaaaaaaaates Dany (quotes via /Black_Sin on /Freefolk):

Quote

NIKOLAJ COSTER-WALDAU: Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time.

And on Twitter:

Quote

is it just me or does her " I am not here to murder " sound a little insincere when followed by "bend the knee or die" #got7 #madqueen2

I doubt NCW would be giddy about the ending if it involves Dany on the throne. She won't die, of course, but she's probably going to be knocked down a few pegs by the time the show ends.

10 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Not really, we have no context or explanations why they dislike the ending, how much they liked the show in the first place, what they think constitutes a good ending etc... 

We have no context or explanations, but the information that multiple crew members not beholden to give good PR for the show openly expressed their dissatisfaction with the ending is significant in of itself.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

Just now, Eyes High said:

We have no context or explanations, but the information that multiple crew members not beholden to give good PR for the show openly expressed their dissatisfaction with the ending is significant in of itself.

I am still going to place more faith with the confirmed opinion of an actor who has not yet hidden his opinions of the show despite being obliged to do PR, and whose judgement I have so far agreed with. 

[Happy Harpy]

[old X-Phile reflex/] Trust no1 [/old X-Phile reflex]

52 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I'm not sure how you got "OMG evil Daenerys will reveal herself to be The One True Villain of the series so Jonsa can defeat her through the power of love and become the endgame couple they were always meant to be" from "the Northerners have valid reasons to be wary of Dany without them coming across as slut-shaming misogynistic traitors", but it doesn't surprise me one bit since criticism of Dany is always met by similar sentiments on these boards.

Excuse-me, who is "you"? Because I was the one who answered you about the Northerners but I didn't use any of those arguments you mention, so I'm a bit lost.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[screamin]

49 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, but crew members aren't really "the fandom" or "fans." They're not passionately invested nerds who live and breathe this stuff with capital-O Opinions about What Should Happen; they're just Joe Schmoes who have a job to do. If they don't like the ending, that's telling.

I don't think fans are otherworldly beings that review shows on entirely different standards than Joe Schmoes do. We may be more interested and invested, but anyone who has had enough interest to form an opinion about a show that's favorable enough to say that the ending they've seen is a falling off from quality they have previously come to expect IS a fan. The difference is in degree, not of kind.

Not to mention - how do you know that some of the crew members interviewed are NOT passionately invested fans? Do you know of an employment questionnaire that disqualifies such fans to work as crew members?

Edited August 31, 2018 by screamin

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

I don't think fans are otherworldly beings that review shows on entirely different standards than Joe Schmoes do. We may be more interested and invested, but anyone who has had enough interest to form an opinion about a show that's favorable enough to say that the ending they've seen is a falling off from quality they have previously come to expect IS a fan. The difference is in degree, not of kind.

Not to mention - how do you know that some of the crew members interviewed are NOT passionately invested fans? Do you know of an employment questionnaire that disqualifies such fans to work as crew members?

 

There's a big difference in your attitude when you do something for a hobby or a diversion as opposed to something you do for a day job.

And crew members are not writing fanfic or doing cosplay or writing 50,000 word essays about how Stannis is the One True King or running podcasts or modding message boards or live tweeting episodes or writing petitions or paying money to go to GOT events. (And, frankly, in my experience the people who are doing those things are people whom you would never find anywhere near a TV show, because they're too busy writing their Medieval History thesis or what have you.) They are not personally and passionately invested the way the fandom is, and thank goodness, because who wants fans involved in the production of a show? 

The crew members' attitude towards the show is the attitude of people who have no particular strong feelings towards the show and certainly no deeply entrenched, passionately held opinions one way or another the way the fandom does, because it's a job to them and not a hobby, and if they think it sucks? It probably sucks.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[screamin]

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There's a big difference in your attitude when you do something for a hobby or a diversion as opposed to something you do for a day job....

 

The crew members' attitude towards the show is the attitude of people who have no particular strong feelings towards the show and certainly no deeply entrenched, passionately held opinions one way or another the way the fandom does, because it's a job to them and not a hobby, and if they think it sucks? It probably sucks.

Again, that's something you're assuming as a fact, not necessarily a fact. Saying 'people who work on something for a living are NEVER fans of that work' isn't, IMO, the self-evident truth you're presenting it as. And you aren't actually presenting any proof of your idea that crew members cannot possibly be fans.

In fact, it seems to me that crew members who are risking their own jobs and livelihoods just to leak the news far and wide that they thought the ending sucked, dammit! because they cared THAT much about it are showing that they are decidedly not the uninvested calmly objective judges you're picturing them as.

Such people who make the effort to spread their opinions have already self-selected themselves as critics, not just objective bystanders. So you can't automatically judge their critiques as superior to any other critic out there.

[nikma]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

yFckngChicken, one the stalwarts of /Freefolk, said that they saw social media posts from crew members saying that they didn’t like the ending, although the crew members didn’t say what the ending was or why they disliked it.

Link?

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Again, that's something you're assuming as a fact, not necessarily a fact. Saying 'people who work on something for a living are NEVER fans of that work' isn't, IMO, the self-evident truth you're presenting it as. And you aren't actually presenting any proof of your idea that crew members cannot possibly be fans.

It's not a self-evident truth that hot water comes out of the hot water faucet, but is it generally true? Yes.

To explain why a crew member's perspective on the show is more reliable than that of a passionate fan, passionate fans get awfully attached to their idea of the show. They write shipper manifestos, they have blogs or Twitter accounts largely devoted to GOT (even if it's just to bash the show!). So when they don't get what they want from the show, they get...upset. However, their anger at being denied their ship or plot development of choice doesn't mean that the developments of the show are necessarily bad, only that fans are salty because they didn't get what they want and write off the show as bad as a result.

So going back to crew members, I trust them a lot more than I trust passionate GOT fans, because unlike the latter, who have all kinds of ideas about how everything should be, they have no dog in this hunt. They don't care passionately about Jon and Dany ending up together, they don't care whether Stannis is the One True King, they have less than no interest in whether Dorne is based more on Wales than on Spain or whatever the hot historical comparison is over at /asoiaf, and they haven't spent 20+ years of their lives waiting for some sort of closure on the ASOIAF story. All they care about is what every professional cares about: doing good work and being associated with a project that they can be proud of at the end of the day. So if they're not proud of that project at the end of the day? That means not that they're unhappy because they're salty about a ship not being endgame or that they're mad that their fave didn't end up on the throne. It means that they're not happy with the project, period.

Bottom line, I trust the opinion of random crew members who couldn't tell a Blackwood from a Bracken if you paid them a lot more than passionate GOT fans, because at least with crew members the only dog they have in the hunt is whether or not the show has a good ending. If they don't think so, I trust that opinion a lot more than I would trust the opinion of passionate GOT fans who have preconceived notions about every aspect of the show coming out of every orifice, or the expressed opinions of actors who are being paid to hype Season 8.

Quote

In fact, it seems to me that crew members who are risking their own jobs and livelihoods just to leak the news far and wide that they thought the ending sucked, 

"I thought the ending sucked" is not a leak. "I thought the ending where it's revealed that Bruce Willis was a ghost the whole time sucked" (just kidding, that was awesome) is a leak. And /EveryfckngChicken was very clear that the crew members didn't explain what the ending was.

Quote

So you can't automatically judge their critiques as superior to any other critic out there.

I can and do judge them as automatically superior to passionate GOT fans, which is what I'm talking about (not "critics"), for reasons I've extensively explained. Posters are trying to write off the opinions of crew members by saying that passionate fans have different opinions about how the show should end, but crew members aren't actually fans, so the comparison falls apart.

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Link?

http://www.reddit.com/user/EveryFckngChicken/

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

He said it was from public posts on social media. But where? 

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

He said it was from public posts on social media. But where? 

I assume they (I don't know whether or not /EveryFckngChicken is male) are keeping the crew members' names out of it so /Freefolkers don't start spamming the crew members asking for dirt on the ending, and they're keeping the exact text of the comments out of it so that /Freefolkers won't start doing searches on Twitter using the comments to pull up the crew members' accounts.

For what it's worth, they agreed with a poster who was asking whether the posts were from Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. They said, however, that the sources were "mainly" from public posts on social media, though, so there might be other sources /EveryFckngChicken is referencing.

I guess if you really wanted to find out, you could go through the IMDB GOT crew page, find every crew member credited on working on Season 8, look for their Facebook/Instagram/Twitter accounts, and go through every account looking for said posts. Sounds like a lot of work, though.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

Or maybe those crew members only had access to an incomplete ending and therefore they felt it is unsatisfising.

And we are commenting the vague writing of a poster about someone who said something somewhere else.

In other words, I insist (and it applies also to the ending) we still know nothing (besides the obvious).

We are Jon Snow.

Edited August 31, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I assume they (I don't know whether or not /EveryFckngChicken is male) are keeping the crew members' names out of it so /Freefolkers don't start spamming the crew members asking for dirt on the ending, and they're keeping the exact text of the comments out of it so that /Freefolkers won't start doing searches on Twitter using the comments to pull up the crew members' accounts.

But that's so vague.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

But that's so vague.

Exactly!

[nikma]

I mean you have people who say that GoT post-S4 is unwatchable mess, and those who think S6 is the best GoT season ever.  We don't know why someone liked or disliked S8. Not even one adjective from them to see why they didn't like it. 

[OhOkayWhat]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

I mean you have people who say that GoT post-S4 is unwatchable mess, and those who think S6 is the best GoT season ever.  We don't know why someone liked or disliked S8. Not even one adjective from them to see why they didn't like it. 

Or if they have seen the complete ending.

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

And crew members are not writing fanfic or doing cosplay or writing 50,000 word essays about how Stannis is the One True King or running podcasts or modding message boards or live tweeting episodes or writing petitions or paying money to go to GOT events. (And, frankly, in my experience the people who are doing those things are people whom you would never find anywhere near a TV show, because they're too busy writing their Medieval History thesis or what have you.) They are not personally and passionately invested the way the fandom is, and thank goodness, because who wants fans involved in the production of a show? 

 

Look up Paula Fairfield, sound designer for the dragons. She's on Twitter and Insta. Huge Dany fan. Has a grill named the "dragons egg," calls herself the "Mother of dogs and dragons," wears Targaryen paraphernalia, calls her sound studio the "House of Dragons," wishes people "Dracarys! ?" on Memorial Day, has friends who attend Con of Thrones, gets tagged by friends who attend bars where they watch the show. The way she talks about the dragons in interviews also suggests she's a huge Dany fan: "Remember when they were shooting Drogon? I thought I was going to have a heart attack. And when Viserion…I couldn’t speak for I don’t know how long, and all I thought was oh my god, I have to do that (create the sounds)? I love these creatures like they are real. It was incredibly emotional."

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Look up Paula Fairfield, sound designer for the dragons. She's on Twitter and Insta. Huge Dany fan. Has a grill named the "dragons egg," calls herself the "Mother of dogs and dragons," wears Targaryen paraphernalia, calls her sound studio the "House of Dragons," wishes people "Dracarys! ?" on Memorial Day, has friends who attend Con of Thrones, gets tagged by friends who attend bars where they watch the show.

Aaaand she's not doing anything I actually listed off, is she? She's not going to cons ("her friends go to cons" doesn't actually count, by the way). She's not cosplaying (wearing a GOT shirt is not cosplay, just for your information). She's not on Tumblr. She's not active on message boards, let alone modding them. She's not running a GOT-themed podcast. She's not writing fanfic. She's not live tweeting. She does her job and does it well, and that's where it ends for her, as it does for all sane employees. So would I call her a fan? No, because she's not doing the things fans do.

And if you claim to be a fan, but you've never gone to a con specifically to meet cast members, posted on a message board (any message board, really) or fan forum specifically about your show, live tweeted or live blogged an episode for fun, written an essay or multiple essays about your fan theory/ship of choice, dressed up as your favourite character (and not for Hallowe'en), read fanfiction, or written fanfiction....well, you can call yourself a "fan," but frankly, that doesn't mean you are one. And your opinion about the show is not actually the opinion of a fan, so it's therefore more objective than that of a fan, since anyone who cares enough about a TV show to do any of the things I listed is not someone whose opinion about the ending is likely to be an objective, straightforwardly trustworthy one...which was of course my point.

Looking at the posts from the usual suspects on these boards, I have a pretty good idea of who loves or hates Sansa, Jaime, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, etc. So if one of you said that you saw the ending and loved/hated it, I wouldn’t necessarily think from your reaction that the ending was objectively good or bad, only that something good or bad happened to your fave (or that something good or bad happened to your least favourite character). That’s what I mean.

Overall, I'd say that I'm seeing a lot of denial here, first that these comments were at all made, and second that they could possibly mean anything. I mean, really; if the finale really does suck, wouldn't you all rather be forewarned?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I mean, really; if the finale really does suck, wouldn't you all rather be forewarned?

But the point is the show already sucks for some people. What sucks even mean? I would love to see deaths of Daenerys and Jon and I don't care if that sucks for someone.

Edited August 31, 2018 by nikma

[OhOkayWhat]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

So would I call her a fan? No, because she's not doing the things fans do.

There a lot of kinds of fans around the world. I'm pretty sure some of them don't do any of those things.

 

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Overall, I'd say that I'm seeing a lot of denial here, first that these comments were at all made, and second that they could possibly mean anything. I mean, really; if the finale really does suck, wouldn't you all rather be forewarned?

The problem is what are we in denial about in this very specific case: something that someone said about someone who wrote something somewhere else.

[Colorful Mess]

12 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

There a lot of kinds of fans around the world. I'm pretty sure some of them don't do any of those things.

Right. I'm just saying - look how attached she is to a tennis ball on a stick. She's swept up in the story that she herself is helping create. She sounds like a fan who watches just like the rest of us. If she was upset/disappointed by the ending, I wouldn't be shocked. She obviously wants the dragons on top.  She is passionately invested in the story and the symbol of the dragons, like most pro-Targaryen folks. In Hollywood it helps to care about the things you create and be invested in them; and passion is probably one reason why she won a well-deserved Emmy for Sound Design. So it makes sense that crew members will have their favorites and preferred endings. They're humans and a bit obsessive, just like us.

[OhOkayWhat]

13 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Right. I'm just saying - look how attached she is to a tennis ball on a stick. She's swept up in the story that she herself is helping create. She sounds like a fan who watches just like the rest of us. If she was upset/disappointed by the ending, I wouldn't be shocked. She obviously wants the dragons on top.  She is passionately invested in the story and the symbol of the dragons, like most pro-Targaryen folks. In Hollywood it helps to care about the things you create and be invested in them; and passion is probably one reason why she won a well-deserved Emmy for Sound Design. So it makes sense that crew members will have their favorites and preferred endings. They're humans and a bit obsessive, just like us.

She is the proof there is a lot of kinds of fans. You don't need to write fanfic or to go to comic con or to write in a forum to be a fan.