Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[whateverdgaf]

30 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I have no problem at all with people questioning Jon. My problem is with them continuing the bullshit narrative of Sansa mistrusting Jon or being “ambiguous “ with her motives. I was commenting on Sophie’s comments about betrayal and things like that. I had issues with certain parts of her storyline in season 6 and 7 and the way the writers chose to explains things in interviews and on commentaries. They purposely chose to leave her motives murky, and they specifically said she might turn on Jon in season 7. Sophie said it herself in a interview after the season 6 finale. They purposely set her up to be “dark Sansa” and then we had a bunch of conflict with Arya instead. Look it up yourself, there is plenty of video evidence where the writers and showrunners have said that Sansa was resentful, mistrustful and might turn on Jon. So once again, we are getting more cryptic statements from Sophie that speak of betrayals etc etc. so yes, I am annoyed, rightfully IMO because they have done this before and it’s annoying. Chances are it’s a big load of trolling and I find it insulting and frustrating by now.

 

From this interview there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that Sansa is the one betraying Jon, just that there are betrayals. Which has always been the case. What we know about Sansa in particular is that she is defiant, powerful and protective. Protective makes it seem as though her motivations are selfless, nothing to indicate 'dark Sansa'.

Edited July 27, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[shireenbamfatheon]

Maybe they'll see Dany's dragons and realize she's their only hope of winning the war against the NK. Or maybe they'll see the NK's dragon and realize that the sheer level of destruction he can cause has just increased by tenfold. and that the potential death of another dragon is just another potential dragon available to the NK. I don't think this story is simple enough for everyone to come to the conclusion that White Walkers = evil, dragons = good, when their status as Planetos' version of weapons of mass destruction has been reinforced again and again, especially in the books. I can see everyone just being done with magic at the end of the series, and the story ending with the deaths of both the WW and the dragons because both creatures are serious threats to humanity. 

[nikma]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

ave no problem at all with people questioning Jon. My problem is with them continuing the bullshit narrative of Sansa mistrusting Jon or being “ambiguous “ with her motives

Ok. But we don't know what will happen im S8. And most of the times Sophie doesn't even know what she is talking. I wouldn't take her interviews seriously 

[nikma]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think it makes the Northerners seem kind of dumb to be arguing about things now. Like, Bran has seen the wall fall and 100k zombies are heading straight for Winterfell. How far away would they be, a couple of weeks maybe?

Damy is there with her army and her dragons and seems to be the only chance the Northeners have of not being killed. What are they going to do, ask that she leave so they can die in peace?

I’m sure most of them will be in a snit about Jon bending the knee, but it just seems like this discussion could wait until after the fight with a zombie army. If they manage to survive, then tell Dany to pack her foreign whore bags and go back to whence she came.

Yeah, but it could be more nuanced (TM) than that. Maybe they won't be against the pact but against the condicions she gave. I mean if she really wants to save the North, why is she still playing the game? Why bending the knee was necessary?  

[GraceK]

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

I mean if she really wants to save the North, why is she still playing the game? Why bending the knee was necessary?  

It wasn’t necessary. At the end of Beyond the wall, she promised to fight the NK and pledged her forces to Jon once she lost Viserion and saw with her own eyes. It was Jon who willingly bent the knee at that point, because he saw what she lost and risked to save him.  To be honest i don’t think she’s gonna have an issue with an independent north at all next season if they aren’t dicks to her. At this point the only one who really is being a tyrant and despot is Cersei. Dany is heading north hand in hand now with Jon with actual good intentions, pledging to fight with them.

Edited July 27, 2018 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

I personally don't see Sansa plotting against Jon, I do see her getting upset if he independently decide things that could put the North under another possible Southern despot.

Also if Sophie's voice over in season 7 History and Lore on Sansa's  take of Thoren Stark and those Northern Lords is a clue; she'll get the North in line, and Glover may be made an example of.

[bubble sparkly]

I do think the Northerners' potential hand wringing about evil Southern despots is kind of hilarious, since pretty much every bad thing that's happened to the North has occurred as a direct result of the Stark's terrible decision making:

• Ned's investigation uncovers that Cersei's kids are not Robert's and that she probably had Jon Arryn killed because he discovered the same thing.  Instead of taking his family and his Northern contingent and heading back home before the same thing can happen to them, he decides to confront Cersei, get Joffrey booted and install Stannis as King.  End result is Ned dead, some of his fellow Northerners dead, and his daughters a runaway and a hostage.
• Robb decides to start a war and risk Northern lives because he is upset that his father was called a traitor and executed.  He makes a marriage pact to further his army's cause then breaks said pact because he falls in love, not giving any fucks about the potential fallout.  End result is the red wedding. Nice job Robb!
• The Karstarks are understandably angry when Jaime kills a Northerner in his escape attempt.  Westerosi laws appear to indicate that he can be justifiably executed for this non-battlefield murder, however Cat puts her own interest of trying to keep Sansa and Arya safe above the interests of the Karstarks.  One can understand Cat being worried about Sansa and Arya, but she essentially priorities her family over the Karstark family.  This leads to the whole mess with Robb executing the main Karstark and half the army deserting because of said execution.
• Ned agrees to hold Theon Greyjoy as a child hostage for years to keep Balon Greyjoy in check, with the explicit understanding that Theon will be murdered if Balon steps out of line.  The Starks don't beat him or starve him etc., but Robb seems to forget that Theon is their prisoner and might have some justifiable underlying anger to the Starks that could easily be stirred up if he is free to return to his family.
• The Bolton's deserting Robb's army because of Robb and Cat's decisions, and their deal with the Freys/Lannisters, means the Bolton army remains pretty much intact and they are easily able to use brute force (and flayings) to cement their position as the new leaders of the North.
• Jon decides to go into battle with Ramsey despite not having enough men, because he wants to save Rickon.  Sansa purposely keeps it quiet that she has asked the Vale forces to assist, when if Jon knew he may have decided to wait for the Vale forces.  The end result is that the Starks eventually win the BoTB but thousands of Northern lives are lost because of both Jon and Sansa's decisions.

All this and Sansa is absolutely shocked when the Northerners don't fall at her feet and agree to fight with the Starks in s6 lol!  Honestly, the Northerners should be just as worried about the Stark's terrible leadership as they should about Dany being a possible Mad Queen.

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

It was great seeing Sansa grow in confidence and control last season and I can't wait to see more of it.  

Sansa actually isn't confident or in control in Season 7. She spends the season acting out of her fear that she'll be stripped of what little power and security she has left. That's why she acts out with Jon. That's why she worries about the Northern lords' flexible loyalties. That's why she was easily manipulated into thinking she needed to get rid of Arya. Truly confident and powerful people don't act the way Sansa acted in Season 7, vacillating between arrogant bluster and naked terror as she did. She reeks of insecurity.

I hope that we see Sansa acting like a truly powerful person as opposed to seeing more of the behaviour she displayed in Season 7, which really only exposed how weak she really is. 

7 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I personally don't see Sansa plotting against Jon, I do see her getting upset if he independently decide things that could put the North under another possible Southern despot.

Plotting against Jon? Doubtful. Taking smug satisfaction in the Northern lords attacking Jon over his decision to bend the knee and insulting Dany? Very likely.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I hope that we see Sansa acting like a truly powerful person as opposed to seeing more of the behaviour she displayed in Season 7, which really only exposed how weak she really is.

I think we will see this next season as D&D have already relegated the Starks to their respective boxes (Ruler, fighter, 3ER) on the show. I expect Sansa to have a role in convincing the Vale army to stay and fight for the Starks. Sansa will also most likely suggest that Jon/Dany get married as LF mentioned the same to her. She will also play a role in getting the Northerners to support Jon/Dany and likely leads everyone south as a 'true leader' after Winterfell falls.

She is also a bit of a military genius on par with Robb on the show. She knew about battle strategies in season 6, explained the importance of castles as a first line of defense to Royce and instructed hardened Vale/Northern soldiers on armor making. I could see her asking Gendry to make weapons from dragon glass. If possible spoilers from next season are right, then she knew that Cersei would be able to get an army all the way to the North in all that snow and ice and attack Winterfell as opposed to Jon who thought that this would be impossible. That's bloody brilliant if you ask me.

So we may see Sansa finally come into her own next season. The problem is that D&D can only give us smart and truly powerful Sansa by making characters in her vicinity ignorant and stupid. Which does not bode well for Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran etc.

We should also keep in mind that the show's/Sophie Turner's take on Sansa is quite different to what shows up on screen. Sophie said of season 6 Sansa:

Quote

“I mean this season is a really, really big one for Sansa,” the actress said during EW’s SAG Awards party on Friday in Los Angeles. “It’s probably her best season yet. It’s her really coming into her own. She, this season, really commands the respect that she deserves and she grabs hold of it and she runs with it and it’s really good.”

http://ew.com/article/2016/01/30/game-thrones-season-6-sophie-turner-sansa/

And all Sansa really did was write a letter to LF accepting his help right? Where does she command respect? She argues with Jon all the time because he does not listen to her, the Northern lords/ladies disrespect her and the season ends with them ignoring her and making Jon KITN. So we probably need to take Sophie's 'Sansa is really the best now!' interviews with a grain of salt. I mean, it's clear the show wants to go there, but the writing is unable to do this.

Edited July 28, 2018 by anamika

[whateverdgaf]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa actually isn't confident or in control in Season 7. She spends the season acting out of her fear that she'll be stripped of what little power and security she has left. That's why she acts out with Jon. That's why she worries about the Northern lords' flexible loyalties. That's why she was easily manipulated into thinking she needed to get rid of Arya. 

I was more referring to seeing glimpses of her running Winterfell. The food stores and such. Considering how she had been in previous seasons, she certainly has grown in confidence and control; if still understandably being somewhat paranoid and suspicious. She still has a way to go and from Sophie's interview it seems she will make the final step in the next season. 

As for fearing the lords and Arya, the Northern Lords had already proved themselves fickle, Worrying about their loyalties is sensible and part of being a ruler.  And when it comes to Arya, her own sister held a knife to her face and threatened to skin it. I don't think any manipulation was required. 

[whateverdgaf]

7 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I do think the Northerners' potential hand wringing about evil Southern despots is kind of hilarious, since pretty much every bad thing that's happened to the North has occurred as a direct result of the Stark's terrible decision making:

• Ned's investigation uncovers that Cersei's kids are not Robert's and that she probably had Jon Arryn killed because he discovered the same thing.  Instead of taking his family and his Northern contingent and heading back home before the same thing can happen to them, he decides to confront Cersei, get Joffrey booted and install Stannis as King.  End result is Ned dead, some of his fellow Northerners dead, and his daughters a runaway and a hostage.
• Robb decides to start a war and risk Northern lives because he is upset that his father was called a traitor and executed.  He makes a marriage pact to further his army's cause then breaks said pact because he falls in love, not giving any fucks about the potential fallout.  End result is the red wedding. Nice job Robb!
• The Karstarks are understandably angry when Jaime kills a Northerner in his escape attempt.  Westerosi laws appear to indicate that he can be justifiably executed for this non-battlefield murder, however Cat puts her own interest of trying to keep Sansa and Arya safe above the interests of the Karstarks.  One can understand Cat being worried about Sansa and Arya, but she essentially priorities her family over the Karstark family.  This leads to the whole mess with Robb executing the main Karstark and half the army deserting because of said execution.
• Ned agrees to hold Theon Greyjoy as a child hostage for years to keep Balon Greyjoy in check, with the explicit understanding that Theon will be murdered if Balon steps out of line.  The Starks don't beat him or starve him etc., but Robb seems to forget that Theon is their prisoner and might have some justifiable underlying anger to the Starks that could easily be stirred up if he is free to return to his family.
• The Bolton's deserting Robb's army because of Robb and Cat's decisions, and their deal with the Freys/Lannisters, means the Bolton army remains pretty much intact and they are easily able to use brute force (and flayings) to cement their position as the new leaders of the North.
• Jon decides to go into battle with Ramsey despite not having enough men, because he wants to save Rickon.  Sansa purposely keeps it quiet that she has asked the Vale forces to assist, when if Jon knew he may have decided to wait for the Vale forces.  The end result is that the Starks eventually win the BoTB but thousands of Northern lives are lost because of both Jon and Sansa's decisions.

All this and Sansa is absolutely shocked when the Northerners don't fall at her feet and agree to fight with the Starks in s6 lol!  Honestly, the Northerners should be just as worried about the Stark's terrible leadership as they should about Dany being a possible Mad Queen.

This is why I wouldn'y hold it against Sansa if she does get annoyed at Jon for bending the knee to Dany. The lessons her father taught her about northern loyalty stripped away, she recognises the need not to alienate the Northern Lords and what does Jon do? He gives away their independance without even consulting them, bends the knee to Daenerys when she has already agreed to come North to fight. Whether or not it is petty for the Northern lords to be angry at their independance being given away without Jon even taking with them frist, they will be angry and Sansa is aware of that.  

[anamika]

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

This is why I wouldn'y hold it against Sansa if she does get annoyed at Jon for bending the knee to Dany. The lessons her father taught her about northern loyalty stripped away, she recognises the need not to alienate the Northern Lords and what does Jon do? He gives away their independance without even consulting them, bends the knee to Daenerys when she has already agreed to come North to fight. Whether or not it is petty for the Northern lords to be angry at their independance being given away without Jon even taking with them frist, they will be angry and Sansa is aware of that.  

But what did Sansa or the Northern lords think that Jon would do when he went off to get Dany’s help? Did they expect mad tyrant Dany to help them for free?  Does the North have some kind of special status in Westeros where they would get help from other rulers without giving anything in return?

Olenna, Ellaria and Yara all went to Dany because they wanted to defeat Cersei and Euron. In return Highgarden and Dorne bend the knee to Dany and Yara promised to support Dany’s fight for the Iron Throne. The North is first in line to be attacked if the WW cross the wall. As such they need Dany’s help. They don’t know that Jon bend the knee after she agreed to help. Only that he did, she is coming to help them and that he has promised to help her if they win against the WW.

Jon made a decision based on observing Dany from the time he got there. From his personal interactions with her and from walking around asking questions about her as Tyrion suggested he do, Jon thinks that Dany is a good queen who would put the interests of the people first. She agrees to devote all her resources – her men, her dragons - to save the North. In return Jon thinks that it is only right that he bend the knee and help her take on Cersei. He sees that she is not a tyrant or the mad queen like her father or the Lannisters. When the war against the WW is over, Dany is still going to try to become Queen of the 7K and would it then be fair for the North to fight against her?

The Northerners made Jon KITN. So either they respect the decision he made on their behalf or they refuse to accept it. In which case what would they do? Does Sansa think they are going to take their men and leave in a huff with the WW on their doorstep? That’s why it’s so incredibly ridiculous for the Northerners or anyone really to be angry about this before they deal with the WW. Fight about this after the WW have been defeated. Doing so before they even deal with the WW makes these guys look like small minded fools.

Besides, even if Glover and his 500 men or Royce and his 2000 men leave in anger, I think Jon can manage just fine with the 100,000 Dothraki, 8000 Unsullied, Wildlings and any Riverlands men that Jaime/Bronn will be bring up North. That’s what I like best about the Jon-Dany alliance. As Littlefinger succinctly put it last season – together they would be difficult to defeat. Jon is no longer beholden to the likes of Royce and Glover to defend the North. And after they defeat the WW, Jon can hang Glover for the oathbreaker that he is.

In reality the Northerners should be wary of pissing off Dany and be nice to her since she is helping them and all.  But since this is the show,  I think it is very possible that we see them be entitled and stupid about Jon bending the knee.  And again this is going be very frustrating to watch because we have had like 3 seasons of Jon constantly trying to convince everyone of the bigger threat, culminating in an actual wight demo, and when we start next season he will still be doing it when the WW are like literally on their doorstep!! Like Damn. I almost expect Royce to be complaining about something when a wight is eating his face.

Edited July 28, 2018 by anamika

[tangerine95]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

But what Sansa or the Northern lords think that Jon would do when he went off to get Dany’s help? Did they expect mad tyrant Dany to help them for free?  Does the North have some kind of special status in Westeros where they would get help from other rulers without giving anything in return?

Olenna, Ellaria and Yara all went to Dany because they wanted to defeat Cersei and Euron. In return Highgarden and Dorne bend the knee to Dany and Yara promised to support Dany’s fight for the Iron Throne. The North is first in line to be attacked if the WW cross the wall. As such they need Dany’s help. They don’t know that Jon bend the knee after she agreed to help. Only that he did, she is coming to help them and that he has promised to help her if they win against the WW.

Jon made a decision based on observing Dany from the time he got there. From his personal interactions with her and from walking around asking questions about her as Tyrion suggested he do, Jon thinks that Dany is a good queen who would put the interests of the people first. She agrees to devote all her resources – her men, her dragons - to save the North. In return Jon thinks that it is only right that he bend the knee and help her take on Cersei. He sees that she is not a tyrant or the mad queen like her father or the Lannisters. When the war against the WW is over, Dany is still going to try to become Queen of the 7K and would it then be fair for the North to fight against her?

The Northerners made Jon KITN. So either they respect the decision he made on their behalf or they refuse to accept it. In which case what would they do? Does Sansa think they are going to take their men and leave in a huff with the WW on their doorstep? That’s why it’s so incredibly ridiculous for the Northerners or anyone really to be angry about this before they deal with the WW. Fight about this after the WW have been defeated. Doing so before they even deal with the WW makes these guys look like small minded fools.

Besides, even if Glover and his 500 men or Royce and his 2000 men leave in anger, I think Jon can manage just fine with the 100,000 Dothraki, 8000 Unsullied, Wildlings and any Riverlands men that Jaime/Bronn will be bring up North. That’s what I like best about the Jon-Dany alliance. As Littlefinger succinctly put it last season – together they would be difficult to defeat. Jon is no longer beholden to the likes of Royce and Glover to defend the North. And after they defeat the WW, Jon can hang Glover for the oathbreaker that he is.

In reality the Northerners should be wary of pissing off Dany and be nice to her since she is helping them and all.  But since this is the show,  I think it is very possible that we see them be entitled and stupid about Jon bending the knee.  And again this is going be very frustrating to watch because we have had like 3 seasons of Jon constantly trying to convince everyone of the bigger threat, culminating in an actual wight demo, and when we start next season he will still be doing it when the WW are like literally on their doorstep!! Like Damn. I almost expect Royce to be complaining about something when a wight is eating his face.

Exactly,I really don't get what the northern lords expect tbh.Like they don't have enough men or food,literal walking dead are on their doorstep and south of them two queens with much bigger armies want to rule all seven kingdoms.They can't really sustain independence and survive on their own or stay out of this conflict.Jon had to make some alliance and he truly managed to get the best one possible.

[nikma]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

She is also a bit of a military genius on par with Robb on the show

Not true at all. She even said she knows nothing about it in S6.

[GraceK]

Also, the Northerners were awfully silent about their independence when the Bolton’s were flaying people alive and Wardens under Tommen Baratheon. They didn’t make a peep then. ? This whole idea now then with WW on their doorstep and a dragon queen coming to defend them with two armies they are all of a sudden gonna be like “ but our INDEPENDENCE MEANS EVERYTHING even if we die!!! is ridiculous. They were so afraid of pissing off Ramsey they didn’t even want to fight BoTB. Now they are gonna make a stand against dragons and armies and sacrifice themselves to the white walkers rather then accept Dany? Really?

Edited July 28, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

But what Sansa or the Northern lords think that Jon would do when he went off to get Dany’s help? Did they expect mad tyrant Dany to help them for free?  

Maybe they expected he would be able to convince her that the WW are her enemies as well and that she should fight them. I mean, that's what Jon promissed them at their last meeeting in E2.

[whateverdgaf]

I do think it would be ridicuous of the Northern Lords to focus more on Jon bending the knee than the White Walker threat, but they will and for Sansa to be frustrated at the North being divided is entirely reasonable and for her to express to Jon that she thinks he has made a bad decision is entirely reasonable. The north are their people and their approval does matter.

Edited July 28, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, the Northerners were awfully silent about their independence when the Bolton’s were flaying people alive and Wardens under Tommen Baratheon. They didn’t make a peep then. ?

But this is what it makes realitic. That is how politics works in real life. Hypocrisy and cowardice.

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

But this is what it makes realitic. That is how politics works in real life. Hypocrisy and cowardice.

 

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

Maybe they expected he would be able to convince her that the WW are her enemies as well and that she should fight them. I mean, that's what Jon promissed them at their last meeeting in E2.

And that’s what he did. And it’s just as realistic that they would expect that she would want something in return.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by GraceK

[whateverdgaf]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

But this is what it makes realitic. That is how politics works in real life. Hypocrisy and cowardice.

Exactly. And if Jon is to be a ruler, he needs to act accordingly. The North are his people and their opinions should matter to him whether they are reasonable or not. Sansa being aware that the Northern lords are fickle and they need to take care to esnsure their loyalty is not weakness on her part, it's logical.

[anamika]

2 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

 for Sansa to be frustrated at the North being divided is entirely reasonable and for her to express to Jon that she thinks he has made a bad decision is entirely reasonable.

Why does she think that Jon made a bad decision? Did Sansa assume that mad tyrant Dany - whom she warned Jon about - would help Jon for free with her soldiers and her dragons against the WW?

[whateverdgaf]

Just now, anamika said:

Why does she think that Jon made a bad decision? Did Sansa assume that mad tyrant Dany - whom she warned Jon about - would help Jon for free with her soldiers and her dragons against the WW?

The bad decision is giving away the North without consulting the North, creating a great risk of alienating and dividing the North. The Northern lords have proven themselves ot be fickle and Jon should have acted accordingly, instead of insulting them by them making such major decisions and risking creating major division in the North.

[WearyTraveler]

16 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, the Northerners were awfully silent about their independence when the Bolton’s were flaying people alive and Wardens under Tommen Baratheon. They didn’t make a peep then. ? This whole idea now then with WW on their doorstep and a dragon queen coming to defend them with two armies they are all of a sudden gonna be like “ but our INDEPEDENCE MEANS EVERYTHING even if we die!!! is ridiculous. They were so afraid of pissing off Ramsey they didn’t even want to fight BoTB. Now they are gonna make a heroic stand against dragons and armies and sacrifice themselves to the white and walkers rather then accept Dany? Really?

Now I'm having flashbacks to Mel Gibson with a face covered in blue war paint

[GraceK]

4 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Now I'm having flashbacks to Mel Gibson with a face covered in blue war paint

?????? I thought that when I wrote it lol 

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

The bad decision is giving away the North without consulting the North, creating a great risk of alienating and dividing the North. The Northern lords have proven themselves ot be fickle and Jon should have acted accordingly, instead of insulting them by them making such major decisions and risking creating major division in the North.

So the bad decision is not Jon bending the knee but that he did not get their permission first before he did it? So if he had asked permission they would have said yes?

And as I have already mentioned, if Glover wants to leave, let him. Jon does not need his 500 men, when he is coming with some 100,000 soldiers. Let Glover face the WW and wight viserion on his own. I think the wights would reach Deepwood Motte before Winterfell. So let Glover deal with them by himself.

[whateverdgaf]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

So the bad decision is not Jon bending the knee but that he did not get their permission first before he did it? So if he had asked permission they would have said yes?

And as I have already mentioned, if Glover wants to leave, let him. Jon does not need his 500 men, when he is coming with some 100,000 soldiers. Let Glover face the WW and wight viserion on his own. I think the wights would reach Deepwood Motte before Winterfell. So let Glover deal with them by himself.

It's not so much getting their permission so much as simply acknowledging them and not needlessly insulting them when their loyalty has already been proven questionable. Dany was already coming North, Jon could have held it off until he had a chance to discuss the matter.

And Glover is one of his people, Glover's people are Jon's people. If Jon is to be a good ruler, he needs to care about them and everyone else in the North because that is his job. Being a ruler is not just leading armies, he also needs to ,create stability and do all he can to prevent division in his realm. He needs to reason with everyone, no matter how petty. Maybe now and then he could cut their heads off, but if every time someone has a problem with his decisions he responds by cutting their heads off he is a tyrant. And it would be nice if they could wait until after the White Walers have attacked, but Jon knows and Sansa knows that the Lords are petty and fickle and they are not going to wait to air their grieviances. By deciding to bend the knee without so much as consulting them even though Dany was already coming North and he should have waited, Jon is insulting them and adding instability to an already precarious situation.

Jon was tactless and for Sansa to be frustrated with that is perfectly reasonable.

Edited July 28, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[anamika]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

And Glover is one of his people, Glover's people are Jon's people. If Jon is to be a good ruler, he needs to care about them and everyone else in the North because that is his job. Being a ruler is not just leading armies, he also needs to ,create stability and do all he can to prevent division in his realm. He needs to reason with everyone, no matter how petty. Maybe now and then he could cut their heads off, but if every time someone has a problem with his decisions he responds by cutting their heads off he is a tyrant.

The mind boggles. You want Jon to run after Glover and beg to be allowed to save Glover's life after Glover throws a pissy temper tantrum and leaves? Like what?

I know the show's current version of the North are some whiny asshats, but before they veered off the books, this is how Robb Stark dealt with Lords who threatened to leave:

And that's pretty much what Jon should do if Glover threatens to leave. Promise to root him out of his castle and hang him as an oathbreaker if Glover manages to survive the WW onslaught. The GreatJon had his fingers chewed off by Greywind and was the first to proclaim Robb KITN. Lyanna Mormont called Glover and co. cowards and has berated them multiple times.  You think the Kings of Winter were politely reasoning with their vassals?

This idea that the Lords need to be coddled and pampered is Sansa's who actually thanks Glover and Royce and calls them kind after they talk treason against Jon and praise her. She is flattered by their words.  That's why Arya gets so angry at her.

Jon needs to give Glover and any lord who objects an ultimatum - stay and fight together against the WW. Or get the hell out and deal with the WW on their own. The time for explanations and begging is over. Jon needs to be more like Dany here.

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

This idea that the Lords need to be coddled and pampered is Sansa's who actually thanks Glover and Royce and calls them kind after they talk treason against Jon and praise her. She is flattered by their words.  That's why Arya gets so angry at her.

Jon needs to give Glover and any lord who objects an ultimatum - stay and fight together against the WW. Or get the hell out and deal with the WW on their own. The time for explanations and begging is over. Jon needs to be more like Dany here.

Jon should be trying to prevent a situation where such actions are necessary. By making massive decisions over the North without even bothering to consult the Northern Lords he increases the chances of creating dissent amongst his own people. 

Sansa listens and reasons with the Lords' complaints and that is what leaders should do. 

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Jon should be trying to prevent a situation where such actions are necessary. By making massive decisions over the North without even bothering to consult the Northern Lords he increases the chances of creating dissent amongst his own people. 

Sansa listens and reasons with the Lords' complaints and that is what leaders should do. 

Jon is not making these decisions for fun. His goal is to make the best decisions that he thinks will help the North. His goal is not to keep Lord Glover happy. It's not about being KITN for him. It's Sansa who needs to keep the Lords happy because she wants to be Queen and needs their support. Hence why she thanks Glover and Royce after they suggest that Jon should be deposed and be replaced by Sansa.

Edited July 28, 2018 by anamika

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon is not making these decisions for fun. His goal is to make the best decisions that he thinks will help the North. His goal is not to keep Lord Glover happy. It's not about being KITN for him. It's Sansa who needs to keep the Lords happy because she wants to be Queen and needs their support. Hence why she thanks Glover and Royce after they suggest that Jon should be deposed and be replaced by Sansa.

And alienating the poeple of the North is not helping the North, so by doing so Jon made a poor decision. Sansa has made no move to claim power from Jon, being flattered does not equate to treason. Keeping the lords happy is important because that is how you prevent dissent from spreading and Sansa was right to try and reason with them. 

[anamika]

Just now, whateverdgaf said:

And alienating the poeple of the North is not helping the North, so by doing so Jon made a poor decision. Sansa has made no move to claim power from Jon, being flattered does not equate to treason. Keeping the lords happy is important because that is how you prevent dissent from spreading and Sansa was right to try and reason with them. 

Sansa was doing her own part in fostering dissent against Jon. She openly undermines him in front of the Lords, constantly questions him publicly and when the Lords complain about Jon she tells them that 'Jon is doing what Jon thinks is best' instead of throwing her full support behind him.

Her 'reasoning' with the lords was purely for selfish reasons and nothing to do with helping Jon.  If Arya had not returned when she did, Jon would have come back to find Sansa as QITN.

[whateverdgaf]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Sansa was doing her own part in fostering dissent against Jon. She openly undermines him in front of the Lords, constantly questions him publicly and when the Lords complain about Jon she tells them that 'Jon is doing what Jon thinks is best' instead of throwing her full support behind him.

Her 'reasoning' with the lords was purely for selfish reasons and nothing to do with helping Jon.  If Arya had not returned when she did, Jon would have come back to find Sansa as QITN.

Sansa had her chance to take control when the throne was offered to her. Arya singlehandedly could not have stopped her. She was one person against armies. But Sansa refused. 

And if we are talking about how Sansa reacts to Jon next season, she has been described as protective, indicating selfless motivations.

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Sansa had her chance to take control when the throne was offered to her. Arya singlehandedly could not have stopped her. She was one person against armies. But Sansa refused. 

And if we are talking about how Sansa reacts to Jon next season, she has been described as protective, indicating selfless motivations.

Who offered the throne to Sansa? One Northerner, Glover and Royce from the Vale. Both of whom were manipulated by LF into pushing for Sansa as Queen Would that have been enough? Lyanna Mormont would certainly see this as treason against her King as would the rest of the Lords like Manderly who swore to Jon.

LF later suggests that the rest of the Northerners can be convinced to depose Jon and Sansa actually entertains the suggestion until she remembers that Arya would not agree to this and would in fact kill Sansa if she tries something like that. That's when LF brings up the idea of getting rid of Arya - something that Sansa actually planned for by sending Brienne away on LF's say so. It's only when LF oversteps and talks about Arya wanting to be Lady of WF, that Sansa realizes what was she willing to do under LF's manipulations and gets rid of him.

So yes, Sansa was actively working against Jon and Arya last season until the last episode. The only Northerner who is angry at Jon is Glover and he is seen speaking to LF. We see only Sansa being pissed off at Jon bending the knee. We see Sansa undermine Jon. We see Sansa thanking Glover despite him openly talking treason against Jon. We see Sansa not supporting Jon and instead telling them that Jon is doing what he thinks is best instead of telling them that Jon was doing what was best for all of them. We see Sansa actually considering deposing Jon with Arya's presence being the only thing stopping her. 

So it's not just Jon risking life and limb trying to get allies in their fight against the WW who is making the bad decisions. It's also Sansa playing petty politics and fostering dissent against Jon while there is an existential threat on the way.

It remains to be seen next season if Sansa is still looking out for number one and protective of her own self interests or if she can start being loyal to her family and actually help Jon in dealing with the bigger threat. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by anamika

[WearyTraveler]

What do we all think is the life expectancy of the direwolves in S8? Will Ghost and Nymeria reunite? Will they even be featured in at least one scene? Will they now become a couple? And if so, what do we name this ship? GhoNym? GhoMeria? NymGho? Nymost? Ghosteria?

 

(there's my attempt to bring us back on topic before a mod has to issue warnings again, and also, I love the direwolves!)

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

What do we all think is the life expectancy of the direwolves in S8? Will Ghost and Nymeria reunite? Will they even be featured in at least one scene? Will they now become a couple? And if so, what do we name this ship? GhoNym? GhoMeria? NymGho? Nymost? Ghosteria?

 

(there's my attempt to bring us back on topic before a mod has to issue warnings again, and also, I love the direwolves!)

I am hoping that Nymeria shows up with her Wolfpack to fight . I need to see Ghost next season I miss him.

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This was me all season 

?   This was Arya last season.

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I am hoping that Nymeria shows up with her Wolfpack to fight . I need to see Ghost next season I miss him.

I get the feeling that the wolves will play a big role next season considering there was some filming spoilers which mentioned some dogs/wolves filming. I think they make an appearance either in the North or in the Riverlands. I think most likely the Riverlands because that's where Nymeria is and hence why I think we will see a battle there.

Edited July 28, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

This was Arya last season.

Omg yes! I love her so much.?

 

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

get the feeling that the wolves will play a big role next season considering there was some filming spoilers which mentioned some dogs/wolves filming. I think they make an appearance either in the North or in the Riverlands. I think most likely the Riverlands because that's where Nymeria is and hence why I think we will see a battle th

That would be amazing. 

[whateverdgaf]

 

This interview doesn't hold specific spoilers, but it came out after season 8 finished filming and she states that the storyline between Brienne and Jaime has been amazing, so combined with number one shipper NCW's enthusiam for Seaosn 8 I'm feeling pretty optimistic where Brienne and Jaime are concerned. Even if it's not a happy ending, it looks like there is some good J/B stuff coming this way.

Edited July 28, 2018 by whateverdgaf
include link

[nikma]

If politics is something so rational and simplistic where everyone agrees with everyone life would be easier.

 

Is there any big deciosion made in history where everyone agreed? I mean, in USA, they can't even agree about climate change ffs.

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

She got everything? She lost a dragon

I was speaking from Northern POV. I don't think they will care about death if dragon. At first. Or maybe they will. We don't know yet.

 

13 minutes ago, GraceK said:

 And once again, she was willing to do all of this without needing anything in return, Jon WILLINGLY bent the knee.

And that's why they  could be angry. 

 

I feel you are speaking from the position of Dany's fan and I am trying to see how will Northern lord react. The fact that they will act unreasonably (maybe), doesn't mean that isn't realistic in politics.

 

I could give you many examples from my own country, but you probably never heard about those events in history lol.

[shireenbamfatheon]

Jon left and didn't have contact with his people for months after stressing the importance of unity, leaving his people to prepare for a threat they weren't even certain he would be present for. He then went on a life-threatening mission without consulting them, apparently provided them with no information as to what he was doing since they were getting restless, went and dismissed Cersei's offer of independence, and then knelt to Dany without communicating with any of his people. These people have already been screwed over by two Starks choosing love over duty. Then Jon turns up, in love with Dany, a relationship that even Tyrion is worried about, tells his people she's their new queen, only for Bran to reveal Jon's parentage, and it's going to look a helluva lot like a Targaryen giving the North and the Vale away to another Targaryen after their refusal to live under another Targaryen's rule following everything the last time they were in power. There's no way this whole thing isn't going to blow up in Jon's face. 

[Eyes High]

Three potential leakers are providing info at /Freefolk.

First up is /claytoy:

Quote

From the same lady, translating her words,

- 'you can think it of like it is a 10+ hour long movie with five intermissions each with a great cliffhanger'.

- 'I am not sure which episodes will contain which scenes, so I cannot tell you if night king dies on episode 5 or 6. But only thing I can understand from the sequences is that magic increases as the story goes forward, and the fight will end with great magic.'

- 'at least two major character deaths. But I do not know if they revive or not'

- I asked who she means as major characters of the show, she avoided, but at last I could make out that she considers even Sansa and Sam and Jorah and Jaime and Sandor as main characters.

- the ending is not fully happy, but it is fully satisfactory, and 'wonderful'.

- no trailer may be coming before November, she cannot tell about in-production tease though.

Edited for preserving anonymity of the source.

Quote

This is not from the lady, but from her colleague, secondary source. So believe at your own risk.

The first half of the season is Cersei's game, while the last episode is the mainly the Stark family's game. The Starks get exasperated at all the trickery, becomes tricky and plays the endgame daredevil.

A specific info on Varys - he effectively regains full control of his former birds, to such an extent that the kids work as double agents.

All North vs Targaryen suspicions and/or doubts get fully clear on last three episodes, and antagonists get wiped out (he used the word 'all Villains' lol).

That's all for now.

Next up is /sineadbelfast:

Quote

A close friend who worked on the past 3 seasons was on set for 4 scenes this season and this was kind of the most secretive one. She told me it's basically just Melisandre Cercei the mountain and qyburn for an episode 2 scene, and it's an intense face to face between Melisandre and Cersei. Melisandre gets Cersei's attention bringing up the witch's prophecy from previous seasons but warns her against self fulfilling prophecies and says that the future is not set in stone. She also tells Cersei that Dany and Jon will come for her after they find out about her betrayal. She says all kings and queens are false prophets, including Jon, Dany, and that neither of them understands their true role in the great war. Melisandre tells Cersei the red god has a role for her and that she will know soon. She specifically instructs Cersei to have the wildfire ready and leaves. Qyburn offers to have Melisandre killed and Cersei refuses. The whole scene was shot in April in less than half a day

 

Quote

Please note it 's only the rumor my friend kept hearing during her last week of filming.

3 out of the main 7 (Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Dany) characters die in the last 3 episodes and there is a fourth fake out death, someone who looks like they die but are later revealed as alive. She doesn 't know who the 3 characters are because she did not work on any death scene. (she only worked with lena heady out of those, neither scene was a death scene).

I asked her if she can remember specific dialogue from the Melisandre Cersei scene or the scene with the Iron Bank and if I can post it here if that's the case.

Lastly is /mutedorange, whose other stuff I posted upthread but who posted this today:

Quote

Sansa uses political manipulation to get a secret deal where once the war is over the big money backs the Starks. This is done without the knowledge of anyone in her inner circle.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

The fact that Dany and Jon are in love will make it really hard to sell his position at first. But by E3 I think the North will accept Dany. It will be just like Jon said, "they will see you for what you really are".

[tangerine95]

I can understand how the northern lords would be unhappy being under the rule of someone they don't know but I also think they should be able to assess their own situation and see that independence is hard to keep at this point and survive.What good would it do if Jon had stayed at WF,they literally don't have the resources to fight on their own.Going to meet with Dany was just the logical thing to do imo.It was a risk but a very necessary one.

So I'm fine with some wariness from the northern lords but I'm also pretty sure they'll be disrespectful and irrational no matter what Jon and Dany say or how much they explain.They acted like that just at the idea of being allies with Dany,without bending the knee even being mentioned.I don't think anything apart from literally getting attacked by the army of the dead will change their minds.

Edited July 28, 2018 by tangerine95

[Advance35]

Quote

3 out of the main 7 (Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Dany) characters die in the last 3 episodes and there is a fourth fake out death, someone who looks like they die but are later revealed as alive. She doesn 't know who the 3 characters are because she did not work on any death scene. (she only worked with lena heady out of those, neither scene was a death scene).

Well, the fake out death lines up with that rumor that Arya would be killed but revived.  Jaimie and Cersei are obvious deaths.  Tyrion, Jon and Dany are each one of GRRM's sacred 5, so that leaves........... Sansa unlucky Stark. SMH.  Though I wasn't expecting Sansa to count as a main character this season in all honesty.  I wonder how reliable this leaker is.

[SimoneS]

None of those new leaks sound credible. They come off as someone speculating and hedging their guesses.

[nikma]

I agree. All of them are fake. I don't even trust BoatsexBaby any more.

[whateverdgaf]

Just a thought on the fake out death, Jaime/Brienne is confirmed to be based on Beauty and the Beast, and the Beast dies in Beauty's arms before he is resurrected. Crosses fingers for surprise happy J/B ending.

[shireenbamfatheon]

Hard to believe the Mel one about all kings and queens being false prophets. Last we saw her, she was happy to have brought Jon and Dany together. She now considers them false prophets? Being a Red Priestress sounds like the worst job ever.

[Colorful Mess]

Jon will probably say something like - you dont have to like her, but you can still fight for your home. Like the Northern Lords are tolerating the wildlings right now.

Jon is willing to ruin his own reputation - and I dont think he's also doing it because he's sentimentally star struck and in love. 

I think he's learned his lessons with Ygritte, and Stannis' hope and failure. I doubt we'll hear him say anything like "I serve her because I believe in her." Jon isn't Missandei.

Jon does have a carrot to hold over her: the North's resistance to her. If he can convince her that she has to work for their support, then she has a reason to do that. He doesn't want to play good image politics for the North, he wants to play bad image politics so that it's not a cakewalk for her. That way she has a motive to actually, you know, try to change it in her favor by saving their lives and fighting for it, not just waltzing in and expecting it handed to her.

Personally I think Jon's views on her haven't changed since he said that she's "better than Cersei." Which is a backhanded compliment if there ever was one. I think that's how he'll justify himself to whomever asks him to explain his actions (in private of course - in public he has to look like he supports her 100%). If Sansa questions him, he can simply ask "What's the alternative? Cersei?"

Dany is in the wildling position and the Northern Lords are in the NW Old Guard position in S8, with Jon in the middle. It looks similar to Janos and Aliser saying that Jon is a wildling lover, turncloak, ect.

But the differences are accumulating that suggests that Dany isn't going to be able to win the North that easily: 1) the clock is running out on Dany's ability to change peoples perception of her, 2) Sansa has more political support from the Lords right now than anyone else on the board, and it's the Lords who make the call to put people on the throne - not the smallfolk 3) The Tarly news is going to drop and it WILL affect the plot. Sansa would say something like "if she burned a lord and his son - just like her father - we could be next." The Northern Lords will have reason to resist her no matter what she does, but this gives them even more reason now, 4) R+L=J reveal is a wildcard, 5) the North Remembers is still there in Lyanna supporting Jon out of memory of Ned makes them a bit more than just myopic assholes like Janos and Aliser, and 6) I think Dany is still playing for the throne--that's not going away. She's just on temporary hold as long as Cersei looks like she's on hold too (which she isnt!). Dany is a foil to Jon - because he is willing to remove his title, and she is not. This makes her more of a parallel to the other claimants (Cersei, Stannis, Robert, Renly, Euron).

In all these predictions, I'm working backward from the assumption that a person who happens to love fire is responsible for this:

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Colorful Mess