Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[bubble sparkly]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes. Unless D&D decide to scrap the entire season which they have already filmed and wrapped and start fresh with a new script, Jonsa is not happening. :D No political Jon, no Mad Queen Dany either.

Jon and Dany remain in love and fight the NK/AoTD together till the end.

I don't even consider this a spoiler lol.  Only the most delusional Jonsa fans are trying to push this theory, which was completely contradicted by the "he loved her/ she loved him" voiceover (not to mention all the other Jon/Dany scenes).  Of course, that still doesn't guarantee that Jon and Dany actually survive the series.

 

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm wondering what happens with the Iron Throne betting if two characters end up "ruling" but there is no Iron Throne and they aren't king and queen.

Yeah, I definitely think there's a good chance the iron throne will be destroyed.  Whether that happens in the final battle, or Jon/Dany etc purposely destroy it as a breaking the wheel / the future will be different kind of statement.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

The expedition was Tyrion's suggestion but one Jon actually impulsively decided to go through with without hesitation. Jon wasn't cornered and pressured into agreeing with it; he could have come up with an alternative plan, but Jon's stupidity has been well-established at this point. I know people hate on the Northerners for "betraying" Jon, but I can't blame them for their attitudes when their king decides to remain absent for months on end with barely any communication and then decides to go beyond the Wall himself without ensuring the stability of his land back home, considering they're the first and possibly biggest defense in light of an AotD invasion. I wish for once we could get a kind AND clever leader in this show. If the world was just, Margaery would have married Jon and then told him to sit back and look broody while she took care of everything.

Good intentions are useless if they just lead to more death and destruction. Just look at Rhaegar. I'm not criticizing Dany from a moral POV, but her decision was motivated by her love for Jon and it was a decision that will now lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. This decision Tyrion did warn her against.

There was nothing natural about their conflict in season seven. I mean, Arya threatened to cut off Sansa's face and wear it.

You are right. On the show Jon, Dany and Arya are all extremely stupid. They are only good at killing people. Sansa , Royce and Glover are smart and know the best way to tackle the WW problem. Tyrion is also very smart with all his plans last season and Cersei is the smartest of them all. Margaery is unfortunately dead. Smart Cersei took her out.

Dragons should also never be deployed against the WW considering they can be taken out. They should sit out the AOTD battles.

Edited July 15, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

The only “alternative plan” was neutralizing Cersei right off the bat. Instead of trying to reason with despotic  lunatic , Dany should have burned her, taken KL and nipped that in the bud and focused all her attention on the NK with Jon and the North. Instead she took the peaceful route and went along with Tyrion’s suggestions and went for temporary truce. If she did otherwise, she would have been raked over the coals even more for being crazy and psychotic for using dragons and killing Cersei. Even now we have certain people in the fandom who are convinced that Dany is somehow the prophesied destroyer of worlds and is gonna end up burning  northmen and turning against Jon ?.  And can we stop please with this Jon is so stupid narrative?? He’s up against a lying psychopath. Nothing Cersei told him she was gonna to honor, it was all bullshit, any “deal” he cut with her he was gonna lose. At least he kept his honor and ended up with his integrity. He’s doing the best he can with what he knows and with what information he has.

I don’t get why this thread consistently de evolves into character bashing.

[GraceK]

So just off topic a moment::

i recently asked my mother to watch GOT with me for a bonding experience. She has never read the books and she knows nothing about it except the fact that it’s very popular right now in pop culture. So we did a watch a few months ago and she IMMEDIATELY pegged Jon Snow as the hero . She literally said “ so he’s the hero right? “ when she saw him . I asked her why she said that and she said it’s obvious cause everyone picks on him. She also immediately saw Daenerys and LOVED her. She looked at me at one point I think in the second episode in season ONE and said “ JON SNOW ends up with her right?  They are both obviously protagonists “. It made me laugh. She caught on immediately to the fact that they are made for each other. I bring this up because I consider myself a fan, and I honestly never freaking put that together until season 7. I felt so fucking stupid cause I never spoiled myself by reading interviews with GRRM or looking on websites, so it was a genuine surprise to me when I realized that DaNy and Jon was what he was aiming for the entire time. I only really got involved in this forum in season 7. My mother however instantly picked up on ALL of it in season ONE,  and she’s not even a book reader.

I will admit to being sensitive to Jon bashing. He is literally a King in bastard clothing. He has been denied  his true status in life, unknowingly by the way, and has STILL ended up a King!!! Yet he has remained a humbled, kind and good man. He is one of the few characters left who live by a moral code yet people give him shit. He could have ended up a Ramsey bolton but stayed a Ned, but fans still ridicule him. It’s upsetting. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by GraceK

[bubble sparkly]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

The only “alternative plan” was neutralizing Cersei right off the bat. Instead of trying to reason with despotic  lunatic , Dany should have burned her, taken KL and nipped that in the bud and focused all her attention on the NK with Jon and the North.

Unfortunately, D&D's desire to have Cersei stick around to the end has screwed with the plots of lots of other main characters.  Jaimie stuck by her for at least a season longer than he should have, Tyrion was suddenly a pacifist advising Dany not to take KL, Dany was in limbo at Dragonstone (and in Essos earlier) because she had to avoid a fight with Cersei (because she would have easily won), and Jon and co went on the wight hunt for Cersei because they also had to avoid fighting her.

In a way I can understand D&D's predicament because without Cersei it would just be Jon/Dany a co v the Night King, and given the NK and his army are non-speaking zombies there's not much you can do with them.  2 seasons with Team Good Guys v Team Zombie would be tedious.  And they can't really just replace Cersei with anyone because Dany would also have been able to defeat them easily too.  The only thing they could have done to made someone else a credible villain that Dany could be wary to attack is maybe introduce that horn from the books, and have Victarion/Euron etc. "steal" a dragon that way so they are on more equal footing.  Also, to be fair to D&D, it seems like GRRM has the same problem since Dany is still stuck in Mereen in the books and he can't figure out how to undo the Mereenese knot.

[Happy Harpy]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

No one, not even GRRM, ships Jaime/Brienne harder than Gwen and NCW, bless them.

Personally, I don't think Tyrion/Sansa is all that obscure as a ship in the show--I think that the writing for their relationship on the show has hit certain specific beats that fit with the way TV ships tend to get written (or, as it was phrased upthread, they ping my shipdar)--but it seems to be sufficiently overlooked among anyone who follows the show that Hannah Murray saying that she's a fan of their relationship (and not, apparently, in a trollish or sarcastic way) strikes me as noteworthy.

Gwen and NCW are my flowers and unicorns when it comes to this off season. Until my Jaime/Brienne loving hopeless  heart is ripped off during the actual season, sigh. 

I agree with you about Sansa/Tyrion but indeed it flies under the radar because imo 1) the circumstances  and time of their marriage 2) I don't think he's a popular partner in the Sansa fandom 3) they didn't see each other in three seasons and casual viewers tend to forget the particulars; so maybe mentioning it is safe because most people would be "naaah", anyway.

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Why the hell should she be conflicted or compassionate about the traitorous Tarlys who denounce her as a foreign invader and whom she hardly knows? Makes no sense.

It doesn't make sense at all, indeed. That's why watching the show, it isn't Dany's portrayal that rings false to me, it's Tyrion's and his sudden conversion to flower power  -not the Queen of Thorns way.

The problem imo is, D&D are really trying to create tension about Dany turning into a Mad Queen, whereas they aren't going to follow through because it isn't the story.  And if it isn't the story, they can't risk for the majority of the audience to stop rooting for her by making her doing something truly despicable. Notice that when she kills the Khals in what could be characterized as a bloody coup, it's completely justified (they'd have emprisoned her for life, or raped her and killed her so it was akin to self-defense) and presented in very a positive  light. That's how D&D end-up with no choice but making a mountain out of a molehill, like with the Tarlys.

7 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

As for the Sansa vs. Arya argument, I vehemently disagree. Sansa and Arya were as different as night and day, but many sisters are, including me and mine, and they, and we, still love each other. The two constantly think about each other in the books and their memories reinforce they miss each other. Arya even thinks that she'll dress like a lady if she sees Sansa again because it'll make her happy, and Sansa likewise thinks of naming her future daughter after her. These two spent years thinking the other was dead. If anything, their experiences should have brought them together. There was nothing natural about their conflict in season seven. I mean, Arya threatened to cut off Sansa's face and wear it. She showed more humanity towards the Lannister soldiers. Arya is not a sociopath and her entire arc has been about finding a pack after considering herself the lone wolf. Better writers would have killed LF off early in the season instead of dragging out this faux drama and focused on something else e.g. the tension in the North.

Others have replied on most points, and aside from adding that only S8 will shed light on which sacrifices were useful and who was ultimately right/smart, I'm going to answer this one because I'll rebound on the topic of S8.

You can love people, sincerely, and be unable to get along. There's dreaming of being reunited with people you love, and the reality of them being actually here with their flaws that didn't magically disappear and the way their temper triggers you and rubs you the wrong way, which won't magically disappear either. Moreover, Sansa and Arya aren't different in temper only. First, their experiences during their years apart weren't similar and shaped them into even more different people; people who don't even react or cope in the same way (it was spelled out: One was driven by fear, the other by anger) but also people who don't confide easily. Hence, I don't see how their trials could realistically bring them together immediately, on the opposite. Second, not only they had an antagonistic relationship, there was actual blood between them, Mycah's and Lady's. It had to be addressed. Sansa's loyalty to Jon had to be addressed with LF whispering in her ear, and Arya's ability to trust Sansa as part of the pack had to be adressed, too. If one looks at it without bias, Sansa was as ready to get rid of Arya in order to protect herself and her position, as Arya was ready to kill Sansa if she was going to betray another of her siblings. Pure un-Disney gritty GoT? Here it is, sibling conflict with a potentially bloody twist. To be able to get along in the future, the sisters had first to deal with their past. That's why to me and in spite of the unfortunate whitewashing I mentioned in my previous post, that storyline was not only justified, it was necessary for them to establish a healthier and hopefully, a more sisterly relationship in a believable way.

Now rebounding, some siblings love each other and get along. but life separates them and they go through vastly different experiences. It would be Arya and Jon, and one could wonder if they're going to be close when they meet again. I'd tend to say yes, it isn't only wishful thinking (although of course I wish for it, LOL). They were established as kindred spirits and deep down, the core values and the qualities that made them close didn't change. It would make sense then that they get along still, then. I do think that Jon will need to adjust to an adult and ruthless Arya, actually I hope for it.  But it wouldn't be enough to indicate a peaceful reunion unless, precisely the Jon/Sansa conflict in S6-S7 and the Arya/Sansa conflict in S7. They had to get the big points of contention and potential conflicts within House Stark out of the way before S8 and the Targ Bomb, which will provide more than enough drama before the WF battle starts.

Imo, if there's a momentary rift inside House Stark, it might be between Bran and Arya. Well, mostly on Arya's side if he's still a mere couple of notches above a vegetable next season, of course. I think she might resent him for "outing" Jon, especially if the latter is hurt or Bran wasn't particularly delicate about it. It just came to my mind that maybe, Bran hugged her back when they met again because he was aware she'd be the more affected by the news and "lose" her favorite brother.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

So just off topic a moment::

i recently asked my mother to watch GOT with me for a bonding experience. She has never read the books and she knows nothing about it except the fact that it’s very popular right now in pop culture. So we did a watch a few months ago and she IMMEDIATELY pegged Jon Snow as the hero . She literally said “ so he’s the hero right? “ when she saw him . I asked her why she said that and she said it’s obvious cause everyone picks on him. She also immediately saw Daenerys and LOVED her. She looked at me at one point I think in the second episode in season ONE and said “ JON SNOW ends up with her right?  They are both obviously protagonists “. It made me laugh. She caught on immediately to the fact that they are made for each other. I bring this up because I consider myself a fan, and I honestly never freaking put that together until season 7. I felt so fucking stupid cause I never spoiled myself by reading interviews with GRRM or looking on websites, so it was a genuine surprise to me when I realized that DaNy and Jon was what he was aiming for the entire time. I only really got involved in this forum in season 7. My mother however instantly picked up on ALL of it in season ONE,  and she’s not even a book reader.

I will admit to being sensitive to Jon bashing. He is literally a King in bastard clothing. He has been denied  his true status in life, unknowingly by the way, and has STILL ended up a King!!! Yet he has remained a humbled, kind and good man. He is one of the few characters left who live by a moral code yet people give him shit. He could have ended up a Ramsey bolton but stayed a Ned, but fans still ridicule him. It’s upsetting. 

Word! I am tired of audiences calling good and honest characters stupid and praising villains like Cersei. Perhaps the reason our world is so effed up everywhere is that humans apparently like monsters better than those who are trying to do the right thing.

All abuses of power are lauded as "smart". Selfishness and pride are rewarded. And so we end up with corrupt leaders, wars, poverty, misery and oppression.

It's all very sad.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Unfortunately, D&D's desire to have Cersei stick around to the end has screwed with the plots of lots of other main characters. 

You answered your own question. I think D&D thought it's better to have Tyrion make some mistakes than to have boring climax of the entire story. 

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

She caught on immediately to the fact that they are made for each other. I bring this up because I consider myself a fan, and I honestly never freaking put that together until season7

Me too. ButI  think your mother watched GoT like any other story and we thought it was something trope suberting.

When you approach it like conventional story everything becames more obvious.

[bubble sparkly]

Honestly, I really don't see Jon/Ned/whoever as being dumber than the supposed game players like Margaery, Cersei etc.  When you look at it, these alleged political masterminds make just as many dumb decisions as everyone else:

Margaery - Was keen to marry Joffrey and be Queen and failed to vet that he was a legit psycho.  She only escaped his clutches because Olena resorted to poising Joff.  Had a good thing going with naive but nice Tommen, yet couldn't resist antagonising Cersei which resulted in the Faith Militant debacle.  She ended up imprisoned and faked her allegiance to the Faith, yet in the end she was blown up in the Sept with everyone else.

Sansa - Failed to accept the hound's offer to escape KL, continually trusted Littlefinger despite his blatant shadiness, and agreed to marry Ramsey.  Then she failed to tell Jon about the Vale Army, and incorrectly thought the North would drop everything to fight for the Starks despite Robb's actions sullying the Stark name and causing many Northern deaths.  She also needs Littlefinger to point out to her that Jon spending months on an island with a female ruler his own age (who is said to be the most beautiful woman in the world), might result in Jon wanting to marry Dany for love and/or political reasons.

Cersei - Carried out a years' long affair with her brother and ensured all her children were her brother's, despite being married to the unpredictable King.  Raised a psycho and failed to stop Joffrey killing Ned and starting the WO5K. Let her hatred of Tyrion blind her, resulting in Tyrion's trial and Tywin's death etc. Let her jealousy of Margaery consume her, causing her to arm the Faith which led to her own imprisonment and walk of shame.

Tyrion - Delayed his escape from KL to kill Shae and Tywin, did a pretty poor job in Mereen in Dany's absence and was an abject failure as hand in s7.  Also, despite knowing Cersei his whole life, he came up with the idea of the wight hunt and parlay and believed her fake truce.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree with you about Sansa/Tyrion but indeed it flies under the radar because imo 1) the circumstances  and time of their marriage 2) I don't think he's a popular partner in the Sansa fandom 3) they didn't see each other in three seasons and casual viewers tend to forget the particulars; so maybe mentioning it is safe because most people would be "naaah", anyway.

Probably. Whatever happens with Sansa and Tyrion in Season 8, we should at least get some good scenes. 

41 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Honestly, I really don't see Jon/Ned/whoever as being dumber than the supposed game players like Margaery, Cersei etc. 

D&D have made it clear that they think Jon is either stupidly honourable or just plain stupid and have written him that way. It's a shame, because Book Jon is quite intelligent and savvy.

Quote

 

Sansa - Failed to accept the hound's offer to escape KL

 

I disagree. Turning down the Hound's offer was definitely the right call. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

D&D have made it clear that they think Jon is either stupidly honourable or just plain stupid and have written him that way. It's a shame, because Book Jon is quite intelligent and savvy.

Heh, trying to unpack exactly what this show's attitude towards "being good" is has driven me up the wall, because on the one hand they consistently downplay or outright omit morally questionable behaviour from the protagonists (and Jon has his fair share in the books, as well as his own ambitions, political savvy, and so on; or how both of the Stark girls' arcs on the show largely ignored the books' arc of having them slip into morally dubious activities at the midpoint), but at the same time they've consistently simplified the books' storylines to emphasize the idea that not doing the most selfish or evil thing inevitably works out badly.  This was very pronounced in the early seasons, especially, where being good and being smart were regularly positioned as oppositional qualities.  And in the later seasons, as GRRM's storylines started to have the bill come due for the villains, I think that accounts for part of the strain you can see strain in the show's writing.  Like, in the Northern story, while the writers were aware that this was supposed to be about Ramsay's over-the-top evilness coming back to bite him, the fact that they were unable to actually show his nastiness ever costing him anything speaks, in my opinion, at least in part to the writers not really believing that Ramsay's tactics actually would backfire.

Edited July 15, 2018 by SeanC

[shireenbamfatheon]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

You are right. On the show Jon, Dany and Arya are all extremely stupid. They are only good at killing people. Sansa , Royce and Glover are smart and know the best way to tackle the WW problem. Tyrion is also very smart with all his plans last season and Cersei is the smartest of them all. Margaery is unfortunately dead. Smart Cersei took her out.

Dragons should also never be deployed against the WW considering they can be taken out. They should sit out the AOTD battles.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said ? This hypersensitiveness around Dany is mindboggling to me. Sometimes people can criticize Jon, Dany and Arya without pitting them against Supreme Leader Sansa to make the latter be out to be better than them. In the show, Jon has been established as dumb. That's pretty much a joke at this point. Ned too is constantly called out for his stupidity, even though it's a very simple understanding of who Ned was and everything he's done. I hate that they seem to believe this because I do think Ned was a capable leader, and Jon was plenty competent in the books, but that's the show for you. Of course, you can't write smarter than you are, which is why everyone has been severely dumbed down, except Cersei.

Sorry Happy Harpy , but LF's influence in the show is overstated. Sansa's skepticism about LF's gift to Bran made her feelings about him clear. Her very public dismissal of him did as well. Arya's supposed to have been trained by the elite of the elite and should have immediately clued into the fact that Sansa didn't have despotic or treasonous plans in the making with LF. Unless, of course, Sansa is such an amazing liar that Arya, who'd been trained to be a human lie detector, couldn't figure out her motives. The conflict didn't the two any favors. Their reunion should have displayed how much they'd grown, but D&D decided to reduce them to who they were six years ago and had Bran be the conciliator between the two, because neither sister had the brains to figure out what LF was doing, even though it was clear as day. Arya didn't even notice he was creepily hiding in the same room with her despite spending two seasons being trained by the magical assassins. The two sisters have had six years to settle aside their differences and grow to accept what happened in the past, but it took Bran's intervention to reconcile them. I hate the decision to make the brother be the one to solve the petty in-fighting between two women portrayed as irrational, impulsive and bitchy. It really makes me wish this show had more female writers and directors.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Of course, you can't write smarter than you are, which is why everyone has been severely dumbed down

This is really low.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Sansa - Failed to accept the hound's offer to escape KL, continually trusted Littlefinger despite his blatant shadiness, and agreed to marry Ramsey.  Then she failed to tell Jon about the Vale Army, and incorrectly thought the North would drop everything to fight for the Starks despite Robb's actions sullying the Stark name and causing many Northern deaths.  She also needs Littlefinger to point out to her that Jon spending months on an island with a female ruler his own age (who is said to be the most beautiful woman in the world), might result in Jon wanting to marry Dany for love and/or political reasons.

Disagree on Sansa and the Hound in KL: Sansa made the right decision with the info she knew, and since we are also using book info: Sandor was raging drunk, suffering PTSD, held a damn dagger to an 11 yo, threaten to  rape her, and demanded a song and you want her to go with him, as arrows are flying about with no guarantee they make it? 

Sansa's situation is akin to our HS kids in an active situation with a killer close by ( Illyn Payne ), protectors (teachers, Cersei, Shae, Dontos ) some protectors ( teachers ) leave to get others out of harms way, one protector ( Dontos or Shae ) tells Sansa to get to her room and stay there as this person( Payne ) will kill you, Sansa already knows the cops ( Stannis ) are outside the gate and the war is lost for Cersei per Lancel, Cersei runs off with Tommen to take their life, Sansa ( after reassuring the other ladies ) heeds the warning and locks herself in her room and there is a victim suffering PTSD, drunk and abusive. Sansa gets on her cell phone calls Mom, explains that the drunk wants to make a run with bullets ( arrows ) flying all over;  but the cops are outside the door. What do you think that mother say? what would you tell your child? The drunk leaves. Sansa doesn't know if he's alive, but the cops came and save the day; the only difference the cops are from lannisport and High Garden and not Storms end. Sansa didn't know , we didn't know and Cersei didn't know that it be Tywin Lannister and the Tyrells ; and there was no guarantee she or Sandor wouldn't get hit with stray arrows.

What was she to tell Jon about the Vale, at least in the beginning? She outright refused Lf because of his game playing and not wanting that snake near her family, and just from what we know of Jon before and after S6 his honor would have also refused LF as not only Sansa, but Jon would trust in Ned's words and they would naturally believe the Blackfish would help. It's not until after they travel about 1500 miles and ending at Deepwood Mote that Sansa understood just how badly Robb screwed up, it's a big learning curve for her and it was then she implored Jon to look for more and he refused; even if she tells Jon at the camp about LF and Jon gives the okay; the results would be the same because : 1. Is LF still at Moat Calin?

2. If he's there will he reply, will he trust sending a Raven, and where does he send the Raven to? Sansa and Jon have another 350 mile trek through the Wolfwoods to get to WF

3.If he's not, where do the crows fly? 

4.Unlike Sansa and Jon, we know what LF plan was from his talk with Cersei Lannister, Sansa being raped and escaping wasn't in his plan, and also not in his plan was saving Jon or anyone else, it was to clean up after the two sides whittled each other down, even if Sansa told Jon the night before the battle, because she had no answers for: when they come, how many, from what direction etc. and add to this Ramsey had Rickon for his play. Sansa probably thought if Rickon wasn't dead as they speak, they find him dead ( like the old lady ) inside the walls of Winterfell, hence her words to Ramsey of him dying and her coming to the truth about Rickon to Jon ( I had people in my house watching that and all of them thought Rickon was on the X in the fields, or already dead in Winterfell ).

Nothing wrong in LF pointing out something, she may not of thought of, she's not thinking that Jon went to bend the knee, or him falling in love, neither she or LF know what Danerys looks like, and I'm sure she's not thinking anything about marriage not just for her, but anyone at this point.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I disagree. Turning down the Hound's offer was definitely the right call. 

Absolutely, she didn't have the info we had.

[nikma]

We need trailer LOL. We are now just stuck in these endless pointless discussions that are always the same. 

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, nikma said:

We need trailer LOL. We are now just stuck in these endless pointless discussions that are always the same. 

/BoatsexBaby said she would post what she knows soon, so we may have a bit more meat on Season 8’s bones before too long. 

ETA: She only promised high level plot points, no details, and from what I can tell she doesn't seem to know the endgame, but hell, I'll take anything at this point.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[shireenbamfatheon]

8 hours ago, nikma said:

This is really low.

I don't see how. GRRM has spent decades writing these books. He's had time to think of character development, motivations, interactions, strategies, political decisions, diplomacy. And he's a writer. His job is to write, which he's done for most of his life. The writing in the tv show pales in comparison to the books. That's just the nature of these things. They don't have the same amount of time to come up with something and they're juggling a whole bunch of things at once. The writing's clearly suffered for it. I get that.

But there were plenty of great original scenes in the earlier seasons, yet the quality of the writing is nowhere close to what it once was. It's not just the constant dick jokes, the weird 180 some characters have pulled, the contradictions, things being spelled out etc., but also the fact that they can't resolve major plot points without writing something convoluted e.g. Ramsay and his ten men taking out Stannis' entire camp, Cercei taking out three Great Houses with her smaller army, Jorah and Daario successfully sneaking into a camp of 100.000 Dothraki, lack of consequences for the Sand Snakes killing their own family/the rightful rulers etc. Hell, Euron was elected King because of a dick joke.

Either they're not capable of better writing, they need more time, or they're just done. But something's wrong when Cersei comes out looking like the smartest character in the show.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

But something's wrong when Cersei comes out looking like the smartest character in the show.

Alienating most of the south wasn't a smart move, making an alliance with Euron isn't a smart move, nor driving Jamie away, not taking care of the peasants isn't a smart move, Cersei isn't truly smart, but she is ruthless.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Either they're not capable of better writing, they need more time, or they're just done

Well, this wasn't what you said. You said that they are stupid (they can't write smarter than they are). This felt like post from rant and rave at westeros.org. DAE Dumb and Dumber?

I think the amount of people that hate D&D for not being able to write the ending to ASOIAF on their own to the level of GRRM while on a yearly time limit and with  limited budget is  astounding.

Some of your complaints are completely taken out of context ( Cersei the smartest character in the show, Euron was elected King because of a dick joke, Ramsay and his ten men taking out Stannis' entire camp,..). Some of these things never even happened. 

If they had opportunity to rewrite the entire storylines after shooting when they can see the final product, like GRRM has done in books, then maybe we could fairly compare them. 

If you really thought it was possible to have seamless transition from seasons that were based on the books to those that are not.. well you had unrealistic expectations. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by nikma

[shireenbamfatheon]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Alienating most of the south wasn't a smart move, making an alliance with Euron isn't a smart move, nor driving Jamie away, not taking care of the peasants isn't a smart move, Cersei isn't truly smart, but she is ruthless.

Cersei successfully took out three major houses by herself with far fewer soldiers than anyone else. She's turned most of the southerners against Dany, including the rigid "honor-bound" Lord Tarly. She's appeased the Iron Bank and has hired the most elite unit of mercenaries. She's successfully tricked her enemies into believing she'll ally with them. All she has to do is sit back and watch her enemies be obliterated. She's ruthless and cunning, but she achieved far more than anyone else in season seven. Of course she won't succeed next season, but she's achieved a tremendous amount of her objectives in the span of a few months. She even came close to securing the Reach's food for her own people.

 

2 hours ago, nikma said:

Well, this wasn't what you said. You said that they are stupid (they can't write smarter than they are). This felt like post from rant and rave at westeros.org. DAE Dumb and Dumber?

I think the amount of people that hate D&D for not being able to write the ending to ASOIAF on their own to the level of GRRM while on a yearly time limit and with  limited budget is  astounding.

Some of your complaints are completely taken out of context ( Cersei the smartest character in the show, Euron was elected King because of a dick joke, Ramsay and his ten men taking out Stannis' entire camp,..). Some of these things never even happened. 

If they had opportunity to rewrite the entire storylines after shooting when they can see the final product, like GRRM has done in books, then maybe we could fairly compare them. 

If you really thought it was possible to have seamless transition from seasons that were based on the books to those that are not.. well you had unrealistic expectations. 

So Ramsay and his ten men didn't successfully infiltrate Stannis' camp, set fire to all his food and most of his horses before leaving without a trace, completely destroy the army's morale leaving to their abandonment, leading the Boltons to successfully wipe out Stannis without any resistance or loss? Euron didn't completely turn most of Yara's supporters against her by grabbing his dick and making crude jokes?

You can't write smarter than you. People with no political or historical knowledge are not going to be able to write politics and history properly without doing proper research. Same with military knowledge or battle strategies or diplomacy. D&D are not smart in these areas. English is not my first language, so I'm not going to be able to explain myself better than this.

People on here criticize the show and certain characters and D&D's writing of them all the time. The season seven script level was heavily ridiculed. People are already getting bothered by hypotheticals that have no basis, but actually calling out bad writing, which, again, is pretty common here, is suddenly crossing the line? I'd like to stay informed on when which days it's ok to have certain opinions, then. 

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

So Ramsay and his ten men didn't successfully infiltrate Stannis' camp

It was twenty good men. How could you forget the unforgettable :D (Ten good men were what Bronn needed to take the Eyrie IIRC. On a side note, it was guerilla tactics and it works so why not.)

Two cents: I don't have an issue with criticizing the writing, I do it myself. But calling people dumb is an insult, not criticism.

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

/BoatsexBaby said she would post what she knows soon, so we may have a bit more meat on Season 8’s bones before too long. 

ETA: She only promised high level plot points, no details, and from what I can tell she doesn't seem to know the endgame, but hell, I'll take anything at this point.

When you begin to miss the pre-S5 PR fail with the weird crow visions...LOL. 

If that poster pretended she knew the endgame, I wouldn't believe anything she says. 

[nikma]

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

So Ramsay and his ten men didn't successfully infiltrate Stannis' camp, set fire to all his food and most of his horses before leaving without a trace, completely destroy the army's morale leaving to their abandonment, leading the Boltons to successfully wipe out Stannis without any resistance or loss? Euron didn't completely turn most of Yara's supporters against her by grabbing his dick and making crude jokes?

Ramsay didn't destroy the army's morale, Stannis did, when he killed his daughter. Euron turn most of Yara supporters because he is a man and they are misogynistic society, not because they like dick jokes. That was just part of his toxic masculinity appeal.

 

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Same with military knowledge or battle strategies or diplomacy.

The thing that always irritates me about posts like these is they pretend like the battles in the books make 100% sense and don't feature 'stupid' elements. You think GRRM is military expert?

 

6 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

People on here criticize the show and certain characters and D&D's writing of them all the time. The season seven script level was heavily ridiculed. People are already getting bothered by hypotheticals that have no basis, but actually calling out bad writing, which, again, is pretty common here, is suddenly crossing the line? I'd like to stay informed on when which days it's ok to have certain opinions, then. 

People criticized the show when in first aired in season 1. Did the same thing up until the fourth season when GRRM was still with the show. But crossing the line for me are personal insults and caling D&D dumb, without taking into account the situation, that they have limited time and limited money to tell the story original writer is not capable to. 

Again, it wasn't possible to have seamless transition from seasons that were based on the books to those that are not. Maybe if they had 3-4 years for every season, but that wasn't possible either. You can't compare their talent to GRRM's because they are not working in same situation. Maybe GRRM's first version of Dorne plot was much worse than the sD&D's. But he had option to rewrite it and do it again, D&D don't have that luxury.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Reminder - This is the SEASON 8 Spec & Spoilers topic, not 'Past Seasons Discussion'. Further off topic posts will be removed.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

If that poster pretended she knew the endgame, I wouldn't believe anything she says. 

Exactly! As a summary for the thread, here are some things /BoatsexBaby has said:

1. Seville filming was for KL battle.

2. Kit and Jacob rehearsed a stunt the second day Kit was in Seville.

3. The doubles for Sophie, Peter, Gwen, Kit, Jacob, and Lino were in Seville, but not for the other main actors (Liam, etc.) Maisie, Liam, John, Isaac and Joe and others filmed without doubles, while Peter, Sophie, Gwen, Lino, Kit and Jacob did. (Kit doesn’t seem to have filmed during the day with Peter, Sophie, Gwen and Lino, though.)

4. 8x05 will have the BOTB/Hardhome-type chaos scenes of the KL battle, while 8x06 is the VFX-heavy portion of the KL battle.

5. In 8x06, Dany riding Drogon will battle the NK riding Viserion.

6. Jonsa will not be a thing, and nor will Jonsa-adjacent theories such as Mad Queen Dany and Political Jon. 

7. Portions of the KL battle were filmed at the green screen set at the Magheramorne quarry.

8. The premiere date will be in April 2019.

9. Nutter wrapped in early May, and whatever was filmed in Iceland with Kit and Emilia was probably from a Nutter episode.

[nikma]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

8. The premiere date will be in April 2019.

Thank the old gods and the new. I remember last year this was the worst case scenario for me, and now I'm happy to have it in April. LOL 

Edited July 16, 2018 by nikma

[GraceK]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

. In 8x06, Dany riding Drogon will battle the NK riding Viserion

I can’t wait to see this. Seriously that’s gonna be freaking amazing. ???

 

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

. Jonsa will not be a thing, and nor will Jonsa-adjacent theories such as Mad Queen Dany and Political Jon. 

No surprises there. We already have one mad queen and her name is not Daenerys. As for Jonsa, that was always delusional fan fiction.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

8. The premiere date will be in April 2019.

 

Sounds about right. I was hoping for earlier but oh well. 

Hope this is legit!!! Thank you! 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Thank the old gods and the new. I remember last year this was the worst case scenario for me, and now I'm happy to have it in April. LOL 

There was a whole hoopla on FF yesterday because some media outlet hinted it would air in summer 2019 and the mere idea had me scream, Munch style.

[nikma]

8 and a half months is not that much. 

[anamika]

On 15/7/2018 at 7:46 PM, shireenbamfatheon said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I said ? This hypersensitiveness around Dany is mindboggling to me. Sometimes people can criticize Jon, Dany and Arya without pitting them against Supreme Leader Sansa to make the latter be out to be better than them.

I was specifically replying to your comments that the 'Northerners' had every right to be pissed off at Jon because he was gone for ages without taking care of them. The only Northerner who complained about Jon being gone was Glover. No one else. Arya secretly observes Royce and Glover having a chat with LF who wants Sansa to be queen. It's very easy to connect the dots here and figure out that Royce and Glover were manipulated by LF into pushing for Sansa as queen. So you were in essence agreeing with LF, that Jon deserved to be deposed.

Secondly, as Arya points out to Sansa, Jon left Sansa in charge of ruling Winterfell while he was gone. What was wrong with Jon's decision to leave her to it while he goes in search of allies and weapons? And it looks like Sansa was doing a great job in his absence while Jon is coming back to the North with the Dragon Queen, 2 dragons, plenty of smart tacticians, thousands of soldiers and lots of dragon glass weapons. What's wrong with this plan unless you think that Jon was stupid to entrust the North to Sansa while she was scheming behind his back?

Are you saying that the lords were so dissatisfied with Sansa's performance that they wanted Jon to come back? 

Thirdly, as far as Dany was concerned, her dragons have managed to come off unscathed this whole time, two men she likes are very much in danger and AOTD expert Jon Snow wanted her help in the first place because she has dragons!  Again, hindsight is 20/20. I agree that the whole 'wight hunt' plot was badly executed, but what is the point of the dragons if they are not used against the WW? That's their very purpose. It's funny, but when the episode 'Hardhome' aired, everyone was like - 'The dragons are the only solution here!' and then 'Beyond the Wall' aired and everyone is like 'Dany is so stupid to take dragons to a AOTD battle'. Ultimately Westeros is a world of magic and lot of stuff is unpredictable.

And besides, the show has also established the stupidity of characters like Sansa. At the end of season 6, Sansa tells Jon that only a fool would trust LF. And she then proceeds to get manipulated by him into nearly killing her own sister. Sansa herself tells LF - I am a slow learner, it's true. But I learn. Jaime is also called as the stupidest Lannister by Cersei, made fun of by Olenna, but he seems to have outwitted Tyrion in their battles. Jaime also says that he is a slow learner.

In the show itself, no character thinks that Jon is stupid - except for maybe Sansa. And considering that Sansa is resentful that Jon has become KITN over her, I am not sure how much value her opinion holds. On the show, Jon is made KITN despite his blunders in the BOTB and despite being a bastard. While Dany is angry that Jon did what he did in the dragonpit, she respects and understands why he did it. Jon is depicted as someone who earns the loyalty of the men under him - which would not be the case if he was stupid. D&D say that Jon was very stupid in the dragonpit, but D&D also say that Jon's words (Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies) was poignant because of Donald Trump and the world today.

Will Jon/Dany face the music for unleashing wight Viserion on Westeros next season? Possibly. But the show has also shrugged off a lot of these big incidents where we would expect to see some backlash. Nothing happened to Cersei for blowing up the Sept, Lyanna Mormont never confronted Sansa about her hidden Vale army that could have saved lives, no one questions Jon's leadership after he blunders and gets men killed, no one questions Tyrion as Hand of the Queen after he spectacularly fails in all his plans.

But this is Dany we are talking about- so she will probably get blamed for Viserion/Wall falling down.  I get the feeling that Royce/Glover will continue to be obnoxiously annoying and we could see Royce leaving with his Vale army in protest. It will be interesting to see if Lyanna continues to be loyal to Jon or if she too disagrees with what he did.

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

1. Seville filming was for KL battle.

2. Kit and Jacob rehearsed a stunt the second day Kit was in Seville.

3. The doubles for Sophie, Peter, Gwen, Kit, Jacob, and Lino were in Seville, but not for the other main actors (Liam, etc.) Maisie, Liam, John, Isaac and Joe and others filmed without doubles, while Peter, Sophie, Gwen, Lino, Kit and Jacob did. (Kit doesn’t seem to have filmed during the day with Peter, Sophie, Gwen and Lino, though.)

Worth noting here that some posters including EveryfckngChicken disagree with Boatsexbaby and think that having body doubles does not necessarily mean fight/stunt scenes and they could just be placeholders for long scenes where certain characters are not the focus but in the scene.

Edited July 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Worth noting here that some posters including EveryfckngChicken disagree with Boatsexbaby and think that having body doubles does not necessarily mean fight/stunt scenes and they could just be placeholders for long scenes where certain characters are not the focus but in the scene.

Considering that /BoatsexBaby’s source is one of those very doubles (or someone who works closely with them), her take on what they were doing is the only one that matters. Unless she’s lying or her source lied to her, whatever Sophie, Peter, etc. filmed in Seville is a Daznak Pit-type scene with action, while the actors without doubles in Seville likely filmed separate scenes without action.

[anamika]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Considering that /BoatsexBaby’s source is one of those very doubles (or someone who works closely with them), her take on what they were doing is the only one that matters. Unless she’s lying or her source lied to her, whatever Sophie, Peter, etc. filmed in Seville is a Daznak Pit-type scene with action, while the actors without doubles in Seville likely filmed separate scenes without action.

When did Boatsexbaby say her source was one of the doubles? She did say:

Quote

I agree that we have no idea how many scenes were filmed, but some of the actors without doubles being there for the entire filming duration clearly suggests that they did film something.

I can guarantee that there were no body doubles for any other actors except those 6. I had the private flight details for Seville which I had shared with you. Confirming which actors had body doubles was way easier compared to that. Thankfully, everyone was excited enough to share pics which made it easy for me to share proof, haha.

The only thing BoatsexBaby is sure of is that 6 actors had body doubles and no one else. From there she is speculating, just like the rest of us,  as to the nature of the scene they shot, because she thinks that it could be a Daznak pit type situation - since Dany, Tyrion and Co. had body doubles for that shoot. He/She could be right about this.

But as EveryfckngChicken points out:

Quote

In that case, we still have no idea if they all filmed the same scene(s) together, or twenty separate scenes, and how much time each actor filmed - so it's hard to draw any conclusions.

Besides, even if they filmed everything together, the focus of the scenes could mainly be on some actors while others stay in the background, which would totally explain the use of body doubles for some but not all of them.

And finally, why would 6 actors with and 5 actors without body doubles in any way speak in favor of action scenes, and against dialogue-heavy or crowd scenes?

We really can't say anything about what they shot at Seville, except that Sophie and Joe Dempsie wrapped the series there.

Edited July 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

When did Boatsexbaby say her source was one of the doubles? She did say:

The only thing BoatsexBaby is sure of is that 6 actors had body doubles and no one else. From there she is speculating, just like the rest of us,  as to the nature of the scene they shot, because she thinks that it could be a Daznak pit type situation - since Dany, Tyrion and Co. had body doubles for that shoot. He/She could be right about this.

But as EveryfckngChicken points out:

We really can't say anything about what they shot at Seville, except that Sophie and Joe Dempsie wrapped the series there.

1. /BoatsexBaby didn’t say that her source is one of the doubles or someone who works with them, no, but she posted photos taken by someone walking with the doubles as they toured Seville, and by someone sitting inside the same vehicle as the doubles as they left the set.

2. /BoatsexBaby has said that her speculation about what was filmed is informed by what she has been told by her source about Seville, so if she’s implying that it’s an action scene, we should probably take the hint...unless of course she’s lying or the source is lying.

[Eyes High]

Here it is: /BoatsexBaby's info about Season 8 (I bolded the stuff I found of interest):

Quote

Like I promised earlier, here are some of the plot points for S8 which I was told and some additional information. I have done my best to verify them and have only shared the ones I am confident about. Time will prove its authenticity.

Episode 1 & 2 is mostly setup/reunions/political drama. Episode 3 & 4 is WF battle & the aftermath. Episode 5 is KL battle/riots/chaos. Episode 6 is the epic finale of the Great War and the ‘dream of spring’ epilogue.

There is crazy time travel throughout the season. Characters will be wherever they need to be for the plot to progress, irrespective of whether it makes sense in terms of travel time. If you want to enjoy the season, you’ll have to accept that.

Jon and Dany’s relationship survives his parentage reveal. They fight the NK/AoTD together till the end.

WF is attacked by Cersei’s army. NK/AoTD arrive to finish the job for them. WF falls and survivors retreat south.

NK arrives in KL and burns down the city. I have linked the circumstantial evidence for this below.

Cleganebowl is real and will be glorious. I told this to u/EveryFckngChicken in a PM on June 24th.

Episode 6 has the Dance of the Dragons between Dany/Drogon and NK/Viserion. It’s one of the biggest highlights of the season. Jon/Rhaegal may or may not be part of this sequence too.

The Dragonpit sequence is part of the KL battle in Episode 6 and will ‘blow everyone’s mind’. That’s a direct quote. I told this to u/Enty23 in a PM on May 29th.

NK/Others are not simply WMDs out of control. Their motivation will be revealed, and it’ll tie together every WW related scene from S1E01 till now. The reveal and resolution are apparently brilliant.

BoatsexBaby is endgame. [/BoatsexBaby clarified that this means that her information is that Jon and Dany's baby is born.]

/BoatsexBaby also seemed to think "from everything [she] had been told" that Jon and Dany's child is born in the epilogue. 

ETA:

Quote

Rumor has it that sequence [the Dance of the Dragons in 8x06] is one of the reasons the Dance of Dragons prequel hasn't been greenlit yet. The novelty will wear off.

Quote

I was told that the NK burns down KL in Ep 5 and then the DoD happens in Ep 6 a month or so back.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

/BoatsexBaby's leak is interesting. I don't think that there is much there that we couldn't or haven't figured out except for the birth of Jon and Dany's baby in the epilogue which I think is the logical outcome. I still don't understand why Cersei attacks Winterfell, but she always was a fool. 

I notice that Euron is absent. No one seems to know what he is up to this season.

Edited July 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah I agree, BSB’s info seems pretty logical and ties up with the filming stuff we know.

Cersei’s plan at the end of last season, to let J/D fight the NK then deal with the victor, at least made a modicum of (evil) sense. However her sending her army to Winterfell for a fight seems bloody stupid. She knows Dany has 2 dragons, so really this battle could (and should) be over pretty quickly with the Lannister army burnt to a crisp. Although I guess we know that won’t happen lol.

[Leila6]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

NK/Others are not simply WMDs out of control. Their motivation will be revealed, and it’ll tie together every WW related scene from S1E01 till now. The reveal and resolution are apparently brilliant.

I wonder if this is the third holy shit moment. It seems like something that would have to come from GRRM.

53 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I still don't understand why Cersei attacks Winterfell, but she always was a fool. 

Agreed, it makes no sense. Her plan last season was to let the AOTD thin out Jon & Dany’s forces so they would be weakened when she hit them back with the GC. Why would she send the GC north in a harsh winter to attack Winterfell? Some of her forces would die on the way there, and she’s not trying to help neutralize the NK threat. Keeping the GC in reserve at KL is logical, to either fight J/D or AOTD. Maybe she’s just *that* pissed about Jamie deserting her?

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

NK/Others are not simply WMDs out of control. Their motivation will be revealed, and it’ll tie together every WW related scene from S1E01 till now. The reveal and resolution are apparently brilliant.

Im actually really excited about this, because I was hoping for something that would tie everything together and actually make Bran relevant again. I always felt he was absolutely pivotal and important to this story and season 7 kind of glossed over him a bit. We spent to much time with Bran and his dreams and flashbacks and Three eyed Raven bits for the WW and NK not to be more than just mindless WMDs.

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

WF is attacked by Cersei’s army.

I think Cersei has a miscarriage in the beginning of S8 that her do this. It’s the only justification for the utter stupidity of her attacking them like this. As others have pointed out, at least her plan last season made some sort of short term sense, this however defies all logic and the only justification is either she loses her mind completely due to her miscarriage and she just wants to burn shit down, or she hopes to attack before Jaime has a chance to warn them.

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

WF falls and survivors retreat south.

Is this why Jon and Cersei meet in KL? If so, why would he think he can trust anything she says after she attack’s them, unless it’s a trap of some sort? This meeting is intriguing .

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

BoatsexBaby is endgame. [/BoatsexBaby clarified that this means that her information is that Jon and Dany's baby is born.]

Woot woot! I’m taking the positive view and say my girl Dany lives y’all! ❤️?

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Jon and Dany’s relationship survives his parentage reveal. They fight the NK/AoTD together till the end.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

22 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

I wonder if this is the third holy shit moment. It seems like something that would have to come from GRRM.

I always thought this. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

the only justification is either she loses her mind completely due to her miscarriage and she just wants to burn shit down, or she hopes to attack before Jaime has a chance to warn them.

I think this is the case. They need something to show how lost she is. Torturing random people in KL is getting old by now. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by nikma

[GraceK]

42 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think this is the case. They need something to show how lost she is. Torturing random people in KL is getting old by now. 

It’s suicidal almost. If she truly believes in the AOTD, she knows she can’t defeat them. Trying to take out the North and Danys armies before they have a chance to battle the  NK is literally the most dangerous and stupid thing to do. It only makes sense on a truly destructive and selfish level :: if there’s nothing to live for, and I am alone in the world, I might as well destroy every living creature with me if I am going to die. That describes Cersei to a T if she has a miscarriage IMO, especially after Jaime leaves her. 

[nikma]

40 minutes ago, GraceK said:

:: if there’s nothing to live for, and I am alone in the world, I might as well destroy every living creature with me if I am going to die.

Yeah. This is what I want from her in the last season. "I have lost everything, but they will too. If I can't be happy, no one will".

[tangerine95]

If the baby really is born at the end,like the epilogue that makes me feel really great about Dany's survival chances.And it makes more sense I guess than literally 9 months of fighting with the NK and Cersei tho I always for some reason thought that the baby being born would totally be like a dramatic in the middle of the war type of moment.Really excited about the Dany vs NK on the dragons and the whole KL battle.

[WearyTraveler]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Episode 6 has the Dance of the Dragons between Dany/Drogon and NK/Viserion. It’s one of the biggest highlights of the season. Jon/Rhaegal may or may not be part of this sequence too.

I'm placing my bet on Dany is injured and Jon has to jump on Rhaegal to save her.  And also on Jon being the one that deals the NK the killing blow with Longclaw.

[SimoneS]

If no one is captured by Cersei and they all flee south, then the picture of Jon at KL with Cersei must be him pleading with her to join forces before it is too late.

[GraceK]

25 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

If no one is captured by Cersei and they all flee south, then the picture of Jon at KL with Cersei must be him pleading with her to join forces before it is too late.

My only issue with this is that it makes Jon look like a massive idiot. Which I’m tired of to be honest?‍♀️. If Cersei attacks WF , shes one of the reasons they have to retreat South to begin with. The AOTD night have finished the job, but her attacking  them to begin with, after promising them a truce and also promising to join them certainly didn’t help and also was a massive betrayal. Not to mention any casualties they may have lost can be lain at her doorstep. Jon deciding to beg her to join their now depleted  forces after she has fucked them over makes no sense, even if they are desperate. 

I also don’t think it would make a difference. Judging by what we know of spoilers, I think the battle of WF has losses on both sides. Jon and Dany have the bigger forces to begin with, and I think it’s gonna be Cersei’s army that bears the brunt of the casualties. In fact, I think the AOTD wipes out her army completely.  ( the army she sends north anyway) I think it’s more likely  that Jon arrives at KL to ask for Cersei’s  surrender and offer a chance for her life in exchange. Jaime and Tyrion may have convinced team Dany not to kill her if Jon can convince her to surrender peacefully or something. 

 

Also I think Jon and Danys baby is lightbringer ?❤️ 

Edited July 20, 2018 by GraceK
Clarification

[nikma]

27 minutes ago, GraceK said:

My only issue with this is that it makes Jon look like a massive idiot. Which I’m tired of to be honest?‍♀️. If Cersei attacks WF , shes one of the reasons they have to retreat South to begin with. The AOTD night have finished the job, but her attacking  them to begin with, after promising them a truce and also promising to join them certainly didn’t help and also was a massive betrayal.

Yeah. But maybe it is not about Cersei. It is about saving the people of KL form the NK. He wants to protect them from the NK.  He is not pleading with her to join, he wants her to opent the gates so they can protect the people. Maybe. 

This is maybe the reason for riots in KL.  People will see that they will die if they don't depose Cersei. She can't play "lesser evil" card any more. 

Maybe Jon will try to connivce her to open the gates, and when that fails Sansa/Tyrion/Varys will decide that they need to start rebellion within thy city. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by nikma

[anamika]

BoatSexBaby's speculative leaks once again more or less points to the June 2017 leaks where the baby was endgame. Jon is dead and Dany goes away.  Other things that point towards the leaks:

Regarding the dragonpit filming she says:

Quote

Like I mentioned back then, the three groups is my speculation based on the ones who had body doubles and the ones who didn't. Italica is such a huge location, that it's hard to say who filmed in the Dragonpit. It may not even be just those actors, since they did film part of the battle in front of the green screen in the Quarry. It could be that they just filmed the finishing shots in the actual location. All I can say it's a very vfx heavy sequence. I had mentioned that in my Seville post as well.

So these actors were filming action scenes but her grouping was just speculative. So we could have Sansa/SR in one scene, Brienne/Waif/Jaqen in one, Cersei/Tyrion, Jaime/Cersei in other scenes - some scenes could be brief (Cersei/Jaime since the actors were in Seville briefly) and just finishing shots.

Just to remind folks, these are the ONLY leaks that places the unlikely characters Sansa, SweetRobin, FM assassins, Greyworm, Brienne, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime and Cersei in KL in the last episode. And they were published last June.

BsB also had this to say regarding Arya:

Quote

I have no info on any interior scenes. Maisie will be part of all the battles, but that's obvious from her filming schedule and her own farewell post.

No information on the actor who has filmed non-stop - again aligns with those spoilers where Arya's role in the last season is pretty much a lot of fighting. And I agree, I think Maisie's instagram post with the bloodied shoes seem to indicate this as well.

43 minutes ago, GraceK said:

My only issue with this is that it makes Jon look like a massive idiot. AGAIN. Which I’m tired of to be honest?‍♀️. If Cersei attacks WF , shes one of the reasons they have to retreat South to begin with.

In those leaks, there is a battle in the North and everyone evacuates to the Riverlands which is where Cersei attacks them. This actually makes more sense and there are 3 battles spread out in the north, in the middle and in the south. There is a lot of greenscreen filming this time around and we know there was also filming at the Riverun Corbet-banbridge set, so it could be that episode 4 is a battle in the Riverlands. There is nothing that confirms BsB's statement that episode 4 and 5 is WF. Or it could be that D&D changed their mind and combined the Riverrun/WF battle and just made it all about WF for whatever reasons. Logically, Cersei's army attacking them at Riverrun makes more sense than the army traveling all the way to the North when winter has come - but yes, this is D&D and Cersei - so the odds are always stacked in her favor and she can make things happen.  It's wait and see, I guess.

Edited July 20, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

If the baby really is born at the end,like the epilogue that makes me feel really great about Dany's survival chances.And it makes more sense I guess than literally 9 months of fighting with the NK and Cersei tho I always for some reason thought that the baby being born would totally be like a dramatic in the middle of the war type of moment.Really excited about the Dany vs NK on the dragons and the whole KL battle.

Eeeeeh. MMD's prophecy states that Daenerys has to bear a living child before she dies so.....yeah.

 

Anyways....if these are true then the NK blowing up KL itself is pretty lame.

 

There's nothing interesting about it besides it being a cool CG sequence which isn't really how GRRM writes scenes.

Edited July 20, 2018 by WindyNights

[Leila6]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

BoatSexBaby's speculative leaks once again more or less points to the June 2017 leaks where the baby was endgame. Jon is dead and Dany goes away. 

I would hate this. It’s like BSG redux, plus baby. 

[Happy Harpy]

7 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah I agree, BSB’s info seems pretty logical and ties up with the filming stuff we know.

Cersei’s plan at the end of last season, to let J/D fight the NK then deal with the victor, at least made a modicum of (evil) sense. However her sending her army to Winterfell for a fight seems bloody stupid. She knows Dany has 2 dragons, so really this battle could (and should) be over pretty quickly with the Lannister army burnt to a crisp. Although I guess we know that won’t happen lol.

Moreover, it seems she shared with some mods before/during filming, so it shouldn't be something that was made up after the fact.

6 hours ago, nikma said:

Yeah. This is what I want from her in the last season.

And this is perfectly in tune with Cersei, who's always been a bitter, envious and mean-spirited shrew even when she had everything.

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I'm placing my bet on Dany is injured and Jon has to jump on Rhaegal to save her.  And also on Jon being the one that deals the NK the killing blow with Longclaw.

I agree about Jon killing off the NK -or rather, finishing him off after Dany inflicted some serious damage- but for the weapon I'd bet on Catspaw. There was a reason it was in Sam's book and for now this one is my best guess.

I still think it's completely asinine for the GC to accept to go North in winter, they aren't mindless drones but seasoned soldiers and there are things gold can't buy. But I'll wait and see how it plays out.

[bubble sparkly]

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Eeeeeh. MMD's prophecy states that Daenerys has to bear a living child before she dies so.....yeah.

IIRC the MMD prophecy lists a number of things that have to happen before Drogo will return, one being Dany bearing a living child.  It's possible Drogo returning means Dany would have to die to see him again, but MMD doesn't tell Dany she will have a child then die.  Besides, technically every women who bears a living child dies, whether it's two seconds later or 80 years later.  MMD didn't give a timeframe.

Also, even if the MMD prophecy is a legit prophecy (which I don't think is definite seeing as MMD hated Drogo/the Dothraki/Dany and could easily have been trying to purposely mess with Dany), are prophecies ever clearcut, uncomplicated, foolproof spoilers for the future?  Dany spent 6 seasons incorrectly thinking she was infertile because of this prophecy.

There's certainly no guarantee Dany will survive s8, but if she dies I'm not sure it's going to have anything to do with MMD.