Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

WindyNights · March 5, 2018

15 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

And what did Ned do on his wedding night with Catelyn? He claimed his marital rights to a highborn virgin who loved his brother and had just lost him. He was by all accounts in love with another woman, just like Tyrion was in love (or believed himself in love) with Shae. You marry, you consummate, it's a legal rape. In the GoT universe, that's how arranged marriages work; that's also how they worked in the past and how they still work in many countries of the world, right now.

It seems to me that you're mixing everything, book and show. There's no need to invent situations like Sansa being a slave in a brothel, she isn't and there's about zero chance it happens in either medium; but something did happen, Tyrion being drunk and having the legal right to rape Sansa. And he didn't. Fact, not speculation. Many characters, Sansa included, are more definitely grey in the books than they are on the show and so are the situations. In either medium, Tyrion treated Sansa better than the rules of the respective universe expected him to, and it was beyond a mere "courtesy".

On the show, which is after all the main subject here, Tyrion treated Sansa with respect and he always showed he respected her for more than her looks ("Lady Sansa, you might survive us all yet", S2). He was attracted to her beauty, yes, but he called "fucking her", as Bronn put it, an "evil notion". He was also threatened by his father into marrying her, and we know what Tywin was capable of. On their wedding night, he didn't even touch her. Her age (14) turned him off. He wasn't bitter about "waiting", and not only "a while" since he made a quip implying he'd never touch her if she was never willing. He is never bitter about her, even after she flees and he's in a cell. Finally, D&D went out of their way to inverse the brothel scene of the books with another where he can't even touch a prostitute, in Volantis. Maybe those changes were made because TV is more mainstream, maybe they were also made for reasons pertaining to his end game. Who knows?

About that, not saying it's your case in particular but I sometimes get the feeling that Book!Tyrion's misdeeds are less of a problem than Tyrion not being "the young hunk Sansa deserves". And I don't think a hunk is hinted at as a end game for her.

Conceited airhead Sansa was all about appearances so she wanted to marry a beautiful prince/knight etc. and have his babies. It led her to betray her family, in the most self-serving way possible (remember, "you're spoiling everything", to her sister dodging a real sword? So much for Generous Young Sansa) that's why I don't see her getting now what she wanted back then. Her romantic story arc so far has been about the destruction of her shallow vision of love based on looks and social status, a deconstruction of the fairytale princess. Which leads me to believe that if she lives, she's going to stay a Single Lady (don't put a ring on it) or choose to be with someone her younger self would have deemed as "ugly" but treats her right.

If she lives. If Winterfell goes down, I still see her going down with it.

Sansa's not more gray on the books.

She's actually much kinder in the books. That's one of her strengths. She's kind and charming. She even feels bad for Lancel when he's hurt despite him treating her like crap and it's implied that she might even feel bad for Joffrey's death.

And also while we are talking about the show, it's the books that give a clearer depiction of what the endgame might be. I mean that is the original story.

Also endgame is such a nebulous term. Say Tyrion dies in the endgame.

In the books, he dies trying to kill and rape as many people possible before Winterfell burns. And then he's stabbed to death by an Other.

In the show, he tries to save as many people possible before Winterfell burns down. And then he's stabbed to death by an Other.

That would be similar endgame but one makes Tyrion a complete villain and the other makes him a hero.

Context is everything.

Eyes High · March 6, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

If LF can find the Septon and Tysha, he can give a good argument to invalidate the marriage.

Book LF himself is counting on Sansa being "safely widowed," not on annulling the marriage, so unless she drops out of the sky in TWOW and lands in Littlefinger's lap, Tysha's marriage is not going to factor in. Also, if GRRM married Tyrion to Sansa to give her a plausible reason not to be married off to Harry or someone else, he won't be in any hurry to undo his hard work.

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa's not more gray on the books. She's actually much kinder in the books.

The same Sansa who let her BFF Jeyne call Arya Horseface and did so herself? Who shrugs off Mycah's death by airily lying that Mycah attacked Joffrey? Who sells out her family for a shot at preserving her betrothal to Joffrey? Who screamed at Arya that they should have killed her instead of Lady? Whose last words to Arya were that she should marry Hodor, since she's stupid, hairy and ugly? Who is grateful when Jeyne is removed from her rooms after the murder of the Stark household retainers because she can't stand her crying, and promptly proceeds to forget about her? Who reflects when getting acquainted with Margaery that Arya (whom she believes at that point to be dead) had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters go? Who only ever called Jon her half-brother (and corrects Arya when she calls him her brother)? Who insists on dosing Sweetrobin with dangerous medicine and who shrugs off the maester's warning that sweetsleep is building up in Sweetrobin's system?

There's this perception out there in certain corners of the fandom that Book Sansa is this font of superhuman compassion and empathy, and it's garbage. Book Sansa has her moments of kindness, sure, but she has moments of...other sentiments, shall we say. Sansa, like several other characters, has been considerably toned down for the show.

It's pretty clear to me that D&D wrote out things like Sansa bullying Arya, Sansa betraying her family by running to Cersei and refusing to kneel for Tyrion at their wedding to humiliate him because they knew viewers would never forgive her. That they felt the need to do so speaks volumes in my opinion.

In other news, Irish Thrones posted on Twitter a few days ago that the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior set) filming was wrapping up and that filming would be moving on to the Magheramorne Quarry set. They also mentioned that the Night King's actor had been seen at the Moneyglass set. I guess that means that the WWs are involved in the Winterfell battle after all.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eyes High

GraceK · March 6, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

t. They also mentioned that the Night King's actor had been seen at the Moneyglass set. I guess that means that the WWs are involved in the Winterfell battle after all.

This actually makes me really happy. I rather have a epic Winterfell battle involving the NK and WW instead of the GC.

Eyes High · March 6, 2018

48 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This actually makes me really happy. I rather have a epic Winterfell battle involving the NK and WW instead of the GC.

It could be both, if for example the WW/NK descend on Winterfell in the middle of the GC/Lannister attack, or arrive after the battle has ended.

Isaac, Kristian Nairn (Hodor) and Alfie Allen were all spotted on a flight into Belfast today. With Emilia, Peter, Kit, and Jacob Anderson spotted in Belfast recently, it looks like everyone is converging on Belfast again for filming (although it seems that Kit never really left).

Nothing is known about what the Magheramorne Quarry set will be used for in S8, but we do know there is a giant green screen put up.

It was pointed out on /Freefolk that Kristian Nairn lives in Belfast, so excitement about a possible Wight Hodor is premature.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eyes High

WindyNights · March 6, 2018

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Book LF himself is counting on Sansa being "safely widowed," not on annulling the marriage, so unless she drops out of the sky in TWOW and lands in Littlefinger's lap, Tysha's marriage is not going to factor in. Also, if GRRM married Tyrion to Sansa to give her a plausible reason not to be married off to Harry or someone else, he won't be in any hurry to undo his hard work.

The same Sansa who let her BFF Jeyne call Arya Horseface and did so herself? Who shrugs off Mycah's death by airily lying that Mycah attacked Joffrey? Who sells out her family for a shot at preserving her betrothal to Joffrey? Who screamed at Arya that they should have killed her instead of Lady? Whose last words to Arya were that she should marry Hodor, since she's stupid, hairy and ugly? Who is grateful when Jeyne is removed from her rooms after the murder of the Stark household retainers because she can't stand her crying, and promptly proceeds to forget about her? Who reflects when getting acquainted with Margaery that Arya (whom she believes at that point to be dead) had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters go? Who only ever called Jon her half-brother (and corrects Arya when she calls him her brother)? Who insists on dosing Sweetrobin with dangerous medicine and who shrugs off the maester's warning that sweetsleep is building up in Sweetrobin's system?

There's this perception out there in certain corners of the fandom that Book Sansa is this font of superhuman compassion and empathy, and it's garbage. Book Sansa has her moments of kindness, sure, but she has moments of...other sentiments, shall we say. Sansa, like several other characters, has been considerably toned down for the show.

It's pretty clear to me that D&D wrote out things like Sansa bullying Arya, Sansa betraying her family by running to Cersei and refusing to kneel for Tyrion at their wedding to humiliate him because they knew viewers would never forgive her. That they felt the need to do so speaks volumes in my opinion.

In other news, Irish Thrones posted on Twitter a few days ago that the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior set) filming was wrapping up and that filming would be moving on to the Magheramorne Quarry set. They also mentioned that the Night King's actor had been seen at the Moneyglass set. I guess that means that the WWs are involved in the Winterfell battle after all.

Most of this is literally in book 1 and ignores the character growth she did afterwards.

And some of the other stuff that come afterwards is in reference to things she's not paying attention to.

this quote aptly sums up most of the hate for Sansa:

Also just straight up misogynistic bullshit and lack of understanding about survival tactics and trauma. People will hold women to the slightest mistakes FOREVER, and immediately assume the worst as someone they see as “privileged” while excusing horrendous shit from men constantly. People talk about how complex Jaime’s character arc is and how they come to sympathize with him and everything after he’s thrown a child out a window. But Sansa can’t be forgiven for fighting with her sister and trusting the wrong people. But then, hardened men like Jaime are expected to be “complex”, while teenage girls, especially teenage “girly” girls, are supposed to be vapid. So Jaime’s development as a character is recognized, he becomes likable. But Sansa is still “boring”, “shallow”, and “weak”. Jaime can be redeemed for trying to kill Bran. But Sansa deserves to be raped for telling Cersei about her dad’s travel plans. And no amount of saving lives, walking epileptic children across mountain passes, figuring out the plots of people like Littlefinger, meeting Dontos in the godswood, getting soldiers medical attention, or bonding with other “non-traditional” girls like Mya Stone seems to be enough.

Also, you know, since Sansa fills the trope of the lady in a song so well (on the surface), she’s supposed to fill that role and be a prize. Especially to poor underdogs like Tyrion. And when she does NOT want to be the loving, doting wife Tyrion wants/needs, it makes people angry. They’ll ignore the fact that she’s a traumatized child who can’t trust anyone, was blindsided by the marriage, and is dealing with being a POW. She’s supposed to put all that aside to be the love Tyrion wants, and when she doesn’t do this, when she isn’t the prize to the downtrodden “ugly” underdog, when she DARES to not be attracted to him and note his physical appearance (meanwhile Tyrion is free to base much of his attraction to Sansa solely on her physical appearance while often misreading her actual character and he’s not shallow AT ALL), she’s a bitch. Because Sansa is not a prize. She’s not consolation. She’s herself. But the only room for women who are not prizes, apparently, are the ones that kill things or ride dragons. Otherwise, you’re a sexual object. Sansa should be a sexual object to some because she’s pretty and can’t fight (the only practical thing, apparently), so her daring to NOT be enthusiastic about being the sexual property of a sympathetic, downtrodden man despite having EVERY REASON not to want to fill that role, is automatically shallow and cruel. And for that she must be punished and hated.

So yeah, there’s a lot at work with the response to Sansa. People often look at Sansa and see everything they hate about “stuck up, weak, shallow, girly-girl bitches” and they will ignore all manner of things —- saving Dontos, trying to warn Margaery, keeping Joffrey from running down that woman during the bread riots, getting Lancel to a maester, comforting the women during Blackwater, taking care of Sweetrobin, braving the Giant’s Lance, showing compassion to Sandor—- that displays her kindness and strength, then read things like not kneeling to Tyrion or not wanting to be married to him as “shallow and cruel” rather than “rebellious, understandable, and completely fair and legitimate.” Sansa doesn’t live out a power fantasy and she doesn’t exist to give the fan favorite characters whatever they want —- be they Tyrion or Arya—- so she’s awful.

Happy Harpy · March 6, 2018

46 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

this quote aptly sums up most of the hate for Sansa:

There would be a similar argument to be made about blind love for Sansa leading to want her to "win" over every other character especially female, but why do you bring hate here? Where do you see hate here?

Where did you see in my posts that I want Sansa to be the loving/doting wife to Tyrion, whereas I stated explicitly that if it happens, it wouldn't be a love match and certainly not at first? I just think it's a likely option because of the way the relationship was written on the show, because of the end of the War of the Roses, etc, I do think that it would be a good option for Sansa, because Tyrion was kind to her and has always respected her intelligence, because he's the one person she took a truly selfless risk for so he brings out the best in her, and mostly because he respected her will not to be touched, hence she wouldn't be a sexual object. I could see them developing feelings born out of intellectual closeness and mutual respect, over the years.

At the risk of repeating myself, my favored option for her is that she stays single because after what she's been through, the last thing she needs is a man. It would be a nice cap to her character arc, since as a young stupid girl she only saw her life through a man. If she lives, of course, impossible to know right now since she's the most expendable Stark imo.

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Context is everything.

That's precisely what I was saying. In the context of the books, Tyrion put a hand on Sansa and stopped when he saw she was repulsed. In the context of the show, he didn't even touch her. Fact stays the same, he had the right to rape her by marriage and he didn't.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In other news, Irish Thrones posted on Twitter a few days ago that the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior set) filming was wrapping up and that filming would be moving on to the Magheramorne Quarry set. They also mentioned that the Night King's actor had been seen at the Moneyglass set. I guess that means that the WWs are involved in the Winterfell battle after all.

It would highly surprise me if they weren't. Geographically speaking, I don't see how Winterfell could be spared. I feel that to be a real threat, the WW have to at least threaten other kingdoms than the North. I still don't buy the GC being there to attack. Not saying it's impossible, but I'm not convinced.

Let's say that Cersei plainly loses her mind after her miscarriage (cold opening to 8x01?) and do send the GC there. It could explain the Iron Bank, who thinks she's Tywin reincarnated, changing side, backing Euron and allowing him to take the Iron Throne from her. (Or, crackpot theory, would Nestoris take the Iron Throne in its name?)

But. Even if Cersei loses her mind, even if they don't know about the WW, the GC are sellswords and supposedly, the greatest soldiers. Why would they be stupid enough to attack the North in winter?

Eyes High · March 6, 2018

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Most of this is literally in book 1 and ignores the character growth she did afterwards.

You argued that Sansa is shown to be kind in the books, and certainly kinder than she was shown to be in the show. There's quite a bit in AGOT and beyond--examples of which I provided--to suggest that she isn't particularly kind, at least no more than most of the other characters in ASOIAF, who like Sansa show themselves capable of both kindness and of cruelty. There's nothing special or remarkable about Sansa's moments of kindness; heck, even characters like Theon, Sandor and Jaime have had moments where they have shown kindness and compassion, and no one would call Jaime "kind." And yes, her behaviour to Arya and Jon growing up prior to the events of AGOT is also relevant, since it shows that Book Sansa has never been a particularly nice person. All of the examples I mentioned were omitted from the show, much like with several other characters had their less lovely aspects or moments scrubbed from the adaptation. TV Sansa was whitewashed to a lesser extent than, say, Tyrion or Sandor, but whitewashed she was.

As for the rant you included as a quote, apparently when you realized you couldn't deny that Sansa did everything I said she did? If your only defence to someone pointing out that Book Sansa isn't actually all that kind after all--with book examples you seem to have acknowledged you're incapable of refuting--is "You hate Sansa! Also misogyny!"...well, that says it all. (Not to mention that resorting to accusing others of misogyny simply because you've got nothing in the way of substantive arguments is not a good look.)

Although the rant you quoted is generally unworthy of comment, I will say that I was amused that Sansa bullying Arya with Jeyne for years is euphemistically reduced to "Sansa fighting with her sister" and Sansa going to Cersei is described as "the slightest mistake." Nope and nope.

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

It would highly surprise me if they weren't. Geographically speaking, I don't see how Winterfell could be spared. I feel that to be a real threat, the WW have to at least threaten other kingdoms than the North. I still don't buy the GC being there to attack. Not saying it's impossible, but I'm not convinced.

Let's say that Cersei plainly loses her mind after her miscarriage (cold opening to 8x01?) and do send the GC there. It could explain the Iron Bank, who thinks she's Tywin reincarnated, changing side, backing Euron and allowing him to take the Iron Throne from her. (Or, crackpot theory, would Nestoris take the Iron Throne in its name?)

But. Even if Cersei loses her mind, even if they don't know about the WW, the GC are sellswords and supposedly, the greatest soldiers. Why would they be stupid enough to attack the North in winter?

The timing of the events we know must take place in S8--Cersei's miscarriage, Jon and Cersei's meeting, the battle at Winterfell, the burning of KL, etc.--mystifies me.

News from the Belfast Telegraph (via /Freefolk): the KL set is nearing completion. Apparently it cost a million pounds to build (!!!), and they intend on maintaining it post-production as a tourist attraction.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eyes High

Leila6 · March 6, 2018

Endgame theory: Jamie kills Cersei, the Mountain mortally wounds Jamie. Arya, Brienne, and the Hound walk in. Arya and the Hound tagteam the Mountain while Brienne rushes to Jamie. Jamie dies in Brienne’s arms and Arya and the Hound kill the Mountain. Thus fulfilling the Valonqar prophecy, Jamie dying in the arms of the woman he loves, Cleganebowl, and Arya’s list.

Also, random thought, if Jon himself is Lightbringer, him being a fire wight could meet the “flaming” part of the sword description.

GrailKing · March 6, 2018

Lena's B D

GrailKing · March 6, 2018

Winter Westeros being built at Titanic Studios #Belfast #GameOfThrones #GoT #GameOfThronesLocation found on reddit:

Eyes High · March 6, 2018

34 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Lena's B D

"Bundled up in an easy-up tent"? Does this mean that Lena's body double is part of the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior) shoots, which we know were wrapping up last week? I have no idea what to make of that.

GrailKing · March 6, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

"Bundled up in an easy-up tent"? Does this mean that Lena's body double is part of the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior) shoots, which we know were wrapping up last week? I have no idea what to make of that.

Your guess is as good as mine, I don't know what to make of it, and the redditors had the same thoughts.

1 year to wait .

screamin · March 6, 2018

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

You argued that Sansa is shown to be kind in the books, and certainly kinder than she was shown to be in the show. There's quite a bit in AGOT and beyond--examples of which I provided--to suggest that she isn't particularly kind, at least no more than most of the other characters in ASOIAF, who like Sansa show themselves capable of both kindness and of cruelty. There's nothing special or remarkable about Sansa's moments of kindness; heck, even characters like Theon, Sandor and Jaime have had moments where they have shown kindness and compassion, and no one would call Jaime "kind." And yes, her behaviour to Arya and Jon growing up prior to the events of AGOT is also relevant, since it shows that Book Sansa has never been a particularly nice person

By sticking out her neck for Dontos, she risked a beating and possibly even death for a man who was no use to her or to anyone, out of sheer pity, when it would have been safer to keep her mouth shut and let him die. She did the same for Margaery, even though she literally was risking death as a traitor for denouncing Joffrey, and Margaery was far less vulnerable than Sansa herself. And yes, Jaime, Theon and Sandor all did things to help people at the risk of their own life, but they also have heavier sins on their account to make up for than she does. She was mean to her little sister, yes. If she was ever mean to Jon - well, it was never actually depicted in the books, IIRC, and Jon certainly doesn't remember it. When he does recall her, it is to remember some useful bit of advice, like always tell a girl her name is pretty, or to remember her decoratively in the background of his memories of home - not anyone he was deeply attached to or close to, but his memories of her were never negative. If he doesn't resent her treatment of him, why should we assume it was bad?

She was indeed a spoiled child and prey in the first book to unrealistic illusions, but to assume her end so many books later is going to be the punishment for her acts in the very first book seems disproportionate.

GrailKing · March 6, 2018

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"Bundled up in an easy-up tent"? Does this mean that Lena's body double is part of the Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior) shoots, which we know were wrapping up last week? I have no idea what to make of that.

Isn't there a storm this week hitting NI?

Maybe she's on shoot and they're hunkering down in a real storm.?

GraceK · March 6, 2018

I started liking Sansa the moment she almost pushed Joffrey off that bridge in season 1. :)

Eyes High · March 6, 2018

3 hours ago, screamin said:

By sticking out her neck for Dontos, she risked a beating and possibly even death for a man who was no use to her or to anyone, out of sheer pity, when it would have been safer to keep her mouth shut and let him die.

For every deed of Sansa's cited to show her supposed compassion and empathy, I could give counter-examples of instances where Sansa has shown a shocking lack of compassion and empathy--towards Arya, Jon, Mycah, Jeyne, Sweetrobin, and others--so it balances out to give you a person who can be kind and can be cruel.

I could also give similar examples of demonstrated kindness for most of the other characters, none of whom are argued to be paragons as kindness, and none of whom get a pass (or should get a pass) for the shitty things they've done on the basis of the nice things they've done. The implicit argument here seems to be that Sansa did some shitty things, yes, but she deserves a pass for them because she has also done some nice things. The problem with that logic is that it potentially applies to pretty much all the ASOIAF main characters, who have all done shitty things and who have all done nice things, from the more heroic types all the way on down to GRRM's "villains" like Sandor, Theon, and Jaime. If they don't get a pass for what they've done, neither should Sansa.

Sansa isn't the devil incarnate, but let's stop pretending she's particularly kind or much kinder than the other ASOIAF main characters. She has her good moments and her bad moments, like the rest of them.

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If she was ever mean to Jon - well, it was never actually depicted in the books, IIRC, and Jon certainly doesn't remember it.

I'm afraid you're mistaken there on both counts, from AGOT:

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He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

It certainly hurts Jon, because Jon missing Sansa is in spite of the fact that Sansa only ever called him her half-brother. He's not making it up, either: Sansa doesn't even let Arya in AGOT get away with calling Jon their brother when Arya is trying to defend Jon, swiftly correcting Arya when she tries. I can see how years of that sort of bullshit would lead Jon to resent Sansa.

And on that note, I love how Sansa is supposedly this angel of kindness, but she stopped calling Jon her brother in favour of "half-brother" even though anyone with a smidgen of compassion would know that doing so, while technically accurate, would hurt his feelings (and the feelings of anyone who truly cared about him, like Arya). Sansa isn't a terribly kind or compassionate person, of course, so she sees no problem with insisting that Jon be called her half-brother.

It underlines the fact that Sansa's not a particularly nice person and never has been.

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If he doesn't resent her treatment of him, why should we assume it was bad?

He does resent it, as shown by the quote I referenced, and yeah, what she did was shitty. Not as egregious as how she treated Arya, but shitty nonetheless.

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She was indeed a spoiled child

It's not that she's spoiled, she's mean: mostly mean to Arya (as you admit), but she's also mean to Jon. Her complete lack of concern over Mycah's death and feeding Sweetrobin dangerous medicine also have nothing to do with being "spoiled"; it's just Sansa being callous and not the living embodiment of motherly compassion and empathy some seem to believe she is.

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to assume her end so many books later is going to be the punishment for her acts in the very first book seems disproportionate.

I dunno. Look what happened to Jeyne Poole. She wound up 1) a victim of sex trafficking, 2) physically abused by her captors, 3) forced to masquerade as the girl she bullied and mocked, 4) raped and tortured by Ramsay, 5) possibly forced to have sex with dogs, and 6) likely to lose her nose to frostbite. If that's what GRRM did to Jeyne, whose only sin was being mean to Arya, I shudder to think of what will happen to Sansa, who was mean to Arya and Jon and (if you're a big Tyrion fan, which we know GRRM is) Tyrion.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eyes High

GrailKing · March 6, 2018

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

I started liking Sansa the moment she almost pushed Joffrey off that bridge in season 1. :)

I always liked Sansa, when I first picked up the books, my daughter was 12-18 months older then book Sansa, and when the series started she was 12 -24 months from Sophie's age.

What I saw was my teenage daughter doing stuff similar to book Sansa ( minus the life and death angst ) seeing a boy that for her age wasn't the right thing ( he was a good kid, but had serious, serious family issues )and beyond her ability to handle, she sometimes be rude, and she fight with mom or me instead of relenting etc. the difference between Ned and I, he didn't notice her change or if he did ignored it. Me, I noticed but knew she wouldn't listen, sooooo dad had someone my daughter looked up to as God walking on water, her big brother. Solved that situation, with no lasting harm.

My daughter was just as caring and kind, just like Sansa also, her emotions all over the place, my verdict on Sansa, a bit naive, innocent and normal for her age.

And Traitor's bridge was the return of the Red wolf and every chapter after that she continued to grow, just like my daughter.

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I always liked Sansa, when I first picked up the books, my daughter was 12-18 months older then book Sansa, and when the series started she was 12 -24 months from Sophie's age.

What I saw was my teenage daughter doing stuff similar to book Sansa ( minus the life and death angst ) seeing a boy that for her age wasn't the right thing ( he was a good kid, but had serious, serious family issues )and beyond her ability to handle, she sometimes be rude, and she fight with mom or me instead of relenting etc. the difference between Ned and I, he didn't notice her change or if he did ignored it. Me, I noticed but knew she wouldn't listen, sooooo dad had someone my daughter looked up to as God walking on water, her big brother. Solved that situation, with no lasting harm.

My daughter was just as caring and kind, just like Sansa also, her emotions all over the place, my verdict on Sansa, a bit naive, innocent and normal for her age.

And Traitor's bridge was the return of the Red wolf and every chapter after that she continued to grow, just like my daughter.

I agree. GRMM wrote Sansa as a typical preteen girl. Just discovering boys and at an age when you start rebelling or at least questioning authority. At that age boys opinions seem more important. Sansa did make stupid decisions. There is a reason why we don't let middle schoolers make decisions. They are not ready yet.

Advance35 · March 7, 2018

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She was mean to her little sister, yes. If she was ever mean to Jon - well, it was never actually depicted in the books, IIRC, and Jon certainly doesn't remember it. When he does recall her, it is to remember some useful bit of advice, like always tell a girl her name is pretty, or to remember her decoratively in the background of his memories of home - not anyone he was deeply attached to or close to, but his memories of her were never negative. If he doesn't resent her treatment of him, why should we assume it was bad?

For my money, she's the only interesting Stark, the rest are just garden variety Sword and Sorcery characters. Sansa's talent was propriety and decorum, did Cat tell her what was and wasn't appropriate? We'll never know. Though I think I recall reading that Robb referred to him as half-brother a time or two as well, though I don't care enough to look it up. But I'm unique in that, I always understood Sansa's POV. I'm someone that thinks The Trident would have never happened if Arya had done what she was told, stayed with the party and behaved. She ran off, ignored the instructions she was left with and as a result, lit a match to the enmity the Lannister's would develop for House Stark. I can't picture any other Great House member STRIKING the Crown Prince.

On topic, I keep waiting for more spoilers to come out. I don't expect to be overly fond of this last Season, if for no other reason then the game is over. And by "Game" I mean the interesting part of this show. I didn't come back over the last 7 years because I was on the edge of my seat, thinking about White Walkers. It was the intrigue and maneuvering by the relevant characters. Look back through the previous threads for past seasons. They were not talking about the Wall or Mereen or Arya and her Goonies. It was Cersei, Tywin, Jaimie, Tyrion, Sansa, Margaery, Olenna, Varys, Littlefinger, Oberyn, Ellaria, Ramsay, Roose. I miss the characters but at the same time, I'm glad there will finally be answers. I could go either way on Sansa's chances of Survival but a part of me hopes she lives just so I can see fan RAGE. lol.

screamin · March 7, 2018

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

For every deed of Sansa's cited to show her supposed compassion and empathy, I could give counter-examples of instances where Sansa has shown a shocking lack of compassion and empathy--towards Arya, Jon, Mycah, Jeyne, Sweetrobin, and others--so it balances out to give you a person who can be kind and can be cruel.

I could also give similar examples of demonstrated kindness for most of the other characters, none of whom are argued to be paragons as kindness, and none of whom get a pass (or should get a pass) for the shitty things they've done on the basis of the nice things they've done. The implicit argument here seems to be that Sansa did some shitty things, yes, but she deserves a pass for them because she has also done some nice things. The problem with that logic is that it potentially applies to pretty much all the ASOIAF main characters, who have all done shitty things and who have all done nice things, from the more heroic types all the way on down to GRRM's "villains" like Sandor, Theon, and Jaime. If they don't get a pass for what they've done, neither should Sansa.

Sansa isn't the devil incarnate, but let's stop pretending she's particularly kind or much kinder than the other ASOIAF main characters. She has her good moments and her bad moments, like the rest of them.

I'm afraid you're mistaken there on both counts, from AGOT:

It certainly hurts Jon, because Jon missing Sansa is in spite of the fact that Sansa only ever called him her half-brother. He's not making it up, either: Sansa doesn't even let Arya in AGOT get away with calling Jon their brother when Arya is trying to defend Jon, swiftly correcting Arya when she tries. I can see how years of that sort of bullshit would lead Jon to resent Sansa.

And on that note, I love how Sansa is supposedly this angel of kindness, but she stopped calling Jon her brother in favour of "half-brother" even though anyone with a smidgen of compassion would know that doing so, while technically accurate, would hurt his feelings (and the feelings of anyone who truly cared about him, like Arya). Sansa isn't a terribly kind or compassionate person, of course, so she sees no problem with insisting that Jon be called her half-brother.

It underlines the fact that Sansa's not a particularly nice person and never has been.

He does resent it, as shown by the quote I referenced, and yeah, what she did was shitty. Not as egregious as how she treated Arya, but shitty nonetheless.

It's not that she's spoiled, she's mean: mostly mean to Arya (as you admit), but she's also mean to Jon. Her complete lack of concern over Mycah's death and feeding Sweetrobin dangerous medicine also have nothing to do with being "spoiled"; it's just Sansa being callous and not the living embodiment of motherly compassion and empathy some seem to believe she is.

I dunno. Look what happened to Jeyne Poole. She wound up 1) a victim of sex trafficking, 2) physically abused by her captors, 3) forced to masquerade as the girl she bullied and mocked, 4) raped and tortured by Ramsay, 5) possibly forced to have sex with dogs, and 6) likely to lose her nose to frostbite. If that's what GRRM did to Jeyne, whose only sin was being mean to Arya, I shudder to think of what will happen to Sansa, who was mean to Arya and Jon and (if you're a big Tyrion fan, which we know GRRM is) Tyrion.

I really, REALLY don't think that GRRM's point in horribly mistreating Jeyne was to imply that it was her just desserts for calling a younger girl names when she was eleven...if it were, GRRM would be a freakin' psychopath. If there's ONE thing I can swear on a stack of Bibles that Game of Thrones is NOT about, it's people getting their just desserts. GRRM's eternal point is that even the best, most deserving people can be made to hideously suffer for the most minor mistakes (think headless Robb), or for no misdeed at all. He makes favorites of villains as well as stereotypical heroes (I mean, just look at Book Tyrion, rapist of a slave). So really, I don't think we can predict that Sansa is going to die in the last book as an adult in just punishment for the crimes committed at age 11.

As for your mentioned cruelties to other people, IIRC, none of them were done from a position of power while knowing there were serious, life-and-death consequences for the person she was being cruel to; they amounted to thoughtless words spoken while not understanding the stakes. Whereas her good deeds were done when she was nearly powerless, risking her own life avoidably to help other people. As a person who HAS said thoughtless things that hurt people in her life (probably more often at age 11 than I do now) and done good deeds, but NOT ones that seriously risked my life to help other people, I do think it should count in her favor.

Of course, in GRRM's world, good deeds buy no security for survival till the end, but if she dies, I hope it's a really good, spectacularly acted death, that is important and worthy, plot-wise.

RE: Jon, IIRC Jon recalling Robb calling him Snow 'playfully', this:

Quote

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

and even a dream of Jon in ADWD:

Quote

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

I'd say that there's more evidence of resentment in that particular case than toward Sansa.

Edited March 7, 2018 by screamin

Katsullivan · March 7, 2018

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's not that she's spoiled, she's mean: mostly mean to Arya (as you admit), but she's also mean to Jon. Her complete lack of concern over Mycah's death and feeding Sweetrobin dangerous medicine also have nothing to do with being "spoiled"; it's just Sansa being callous and not the living embodiment of motherly compassion and empathy some seem to believe she is.

Well said.

3 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

GRMM wrote Sansa as a typical preteen girl.

If you mean by "typical", you mean the particular class of rich white girls who are cliquey and mean, make fun of anyone who's different (not white, not rich, not abled, not straight), while playing up the victim card anytime they're called out on it? Then yeah, I agree that Sansa is typical.

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa isn't the devil incarnate, but let's stop pretending she's particularly kind or much kinder than the other ASOIAF main characters. She has her good moments and her bad moments, like the rest of them.

I've always privately felt that it's just another brand of white feminist bullshit that always insists on painting Sansa as this paragon of virtue that deserves the world.

anamika · March 7, 2018

6 hours ago, screamin said:

RE: Jon, IIRC Jon recalling Robb calling him Snow 'playfully', this:

and even a dream of Jon in ADWD:

I'd say that there's more evidence of resentment in that particular case than toward Sansa.

The difference here is that Jon understands that Robb, Arya and Bran don't personally see him as less than, even if they understand that by convention he is a bastard. Robb brings it up sometimes when they are playing and Jon remembers it when he is thinking/dreaming/pondering about Winterfell, but Robb does not treat him differently because he is a bastard. And Jon loves Robb, Arya and Bran the more for it. And we see this in Jon's thoughts about his siblings, even Rickon. It's only with Sansa, that both Jon and Arya use the qualifier 'even'. His best memories in WF all involve Robb, Bran and Arya.

We see this from Robb and Sansa as well:

Quote

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.” She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark." "Jon's more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell."

Quote

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still… with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her.

She hadn't thought of him in ages, she still doesn't fail to remind herself how he's only a half-brother, and she brings up how her other brothers are dead, as if to imply that if they were alive Jon wouldn't be too important for her. Given how much time she spends missing everything about Winterfell, it's likely that she's just looking at a happier time of her life through a nostalgic filter.

I don't blame Sansa for her treatment of Jon. She's all about the convention. And I don't think it bothered Jon too much either - he had affectionate siblings in Robb, Bran, Arya and Rickon. I don't think she was particularly cruel to him. Jon and Sansa were indifferent siblings and I doubt they interacted much. Jon does not seem to particularly care much about what Sansa's been up to in the books and Sansa seems to have forgotten that she has a half brother at the wall.

I don't think Sansa needed to apologize to Jon. But on the show, David and Dan had Sansa apologize to Jon, and not to Arya whom she treated much worse. She bullied Arya about her appearance, supported Joffrey against her, blamed her for Lady's death, wished her dead, proclaimed her a traitor, and called her dead sister an unsatisfactory one. She was just a terrible sibling all round. Instead David and Dan wrote Arya as the psychopathic fool who was unjustly being a big ol' meanie to poor Sansa.

We can talk about how Arya does not understand Westorosi political and social hierarchies, but if that was me standing there watching Joffrey stick a sword into a child’s face drawing blood, I would have wanted to react like Arya. Don't we all want to stand up for the little guy? That's why the Starks are the good guys in this tale. Yes, Arya made enemies out of the Lannisters. But that was going to happen anyway.

I can’t relate to Sansa’s morality in the first book. In later books, I can understand some of her actions considering that survival takes precedence. But in the first book, she was just being a selfish brat. And GRRM deliberately wrote her to be that way – she was meant to be a foil to Arya. Characters like Sansa and Jaime were assholes in the first book because they were written for a singular purpose - betrayal and villainy respectively. So GRRM had to do some course correction later on when he expanded the story. But that still does not change the fact that Jaime tried to murder a child or that Sansa selfishly betrayed her family.

I can’t relate to Sansa’s lack of remorse. Arya feels guilty about Mycah – way later in book 3 she has her revenge on the Hound - no mercy - for Mycah. Bratty Jon treats his fellow crows like shit – Donal Nye pulls him aside and scolds him. He feels bad and helps them out. Dany is constantly wracked by self doubt because she introspects and takes responsibility for her actions. She blames herself for Eroeh and states that she made Astapor like Eroeh.

Sansa on the other hand blames everyone but herself. As a reader, I want her to just once acknowledge that she was wrong to lie about the trident and tattling to Cersei. Just once. But that's just me. I know her fans think she was totally justified about the trident, about tattling to Cersei and she was merely saving everyone with her superior intelligence and ability to foretell the future.

A lack of remorse is one of the reasons I dislike Jaime. My dislike was solidified when he hung some hungry outlaws created by his war and then bragged about being 'Goldenhand the Just'. A complete contrast to Theon who has done some horrible shit, bitterly regrets it and tries to do better by saving a nobody like Jeyne.

On the whole, I just find Sansa to be very unrelateable as a character. She's snobby, classist, has shown no family loyalty, is not particularly smart, has no close sibling relationships or friendships etc. - some call this realistic. But I don't read fantasy fiction to read realistic. Give me swords and sorcery, dragons and direwolves, the Others, heroes, villains and those in between. I hope they go full fantasy next season with wights, WW, elephants, crows and ice spiders as big as hounds. David and Dan are shitty writers but with good directors like Sapochnik we will atleast be guaranteed good spectacle.

Edited March 7, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · March 7, 2018

12 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I agree. GRMM wrote Sansa as a typical preteen girl.

If you think GRRM wrote Sansa as a "typical preteen girl," I'd say you have a pretty dim view of typical preteen girls.

11 hours ago, screamin said:

I really, REALLY don't think that GRRM's point in horribly mistreating Jeyne was to imply that it was her just desserts for calling a younger girl names when she was eleven...if it were, GRRM would be a freakin' psychopath.

Again, I dunno. Look what happened to Book Catelyn, who died one of the cruelest deaths in ASOIAF: she dies watching her beloved son die in front of his eyes, believing that all of her children are dead or good as dead and that the bastard she hated will outlive them all and be Robb's heir. And what did she do that was so terrible to deserve such a fate? Keep her distance from Jon when he was growing up. That's it.

You can get away with a fair bit in ASOIAF, but fuck with GRRM's faves in any way, shape or form and you will pay. Sansa has fucked with two--arguably three--of them, so it's not going to end well for her.

Quote

If there's ONE thing I can swear on a stack of Bibles that Game of Thrones is NOT about, it's people getting their just desserts.

I strongly, strongly disagree. GRRM does deal in a brutal sort of rough justice: Lysa throws people out the Moon Door, gets thrown out herself by the man she loves. Jaime cripples Bran, gets crippled himself. Joffrey abuses Sansa, is murdered by the Tyrells as a direct result. Tywin obsesses with family pride and dignity and abuses Tyrion for years being a living affront to both, gets murdered by Tyrion on the privy. Cat mistreats Jon because she worries about him supplanting her children, so she gets to die believing all her children are dead and that Jon will supplant them as Robb's heir. Ex-slave trader Jorah is sold into slavery himself. And so on.

Quote

As for your mentioned cruelties to other people, IIRC, none of them were done from a position of power while knowing there were serious, life-and-death consequences for the person she was being cruel to; they amounted to thoughtless words spoken while not understanding the stakes.

She shrugs off dosing Sweetrobin with medicine she is warned is dangerous even when she has to power to say no, so this is untrue. However, even accepting this distinction, it says something that Sansa can be moved to compassion for Dontos, who's a random no one she has never met, but can't spare a kind word for Mycah, whatever she might have thought of him, even knowing that he was Arya's friend, that she is grieving him, and that he was violently killed. Instead, she airily lies to Arya's face that Mycah attacked Joffrey, and when Arya rightly calls her out as a liar, Sansa's response is pretty much "Lol whatever, suck it up, I'll be queen someday." She shows kindness to Dontos but also shows appalling cruelty to Arya. Thus my point.

I often see it argued that yes, Sansa was mean in AGOT, but she becomes a more thoughtful, kinder person in post-AGOT books. However, she never repents of or regrets her treatment of those she mistreated in AGOT. She never thinks she will apologize to Arya (whereas Arya hopes to beg Sansa's pardons like a proper lady). Despite being forced to masquerade as a bastard, she never regrets insisting that Jon always be called her half-brother. She never feels a moment's pain for Mycah's death, even after the scales have fallen from her eyes about Joffrey. So if Sansa is this kinder, more compassionate person past AGOT, why is it that she never regrets her previous actions towards the people she treated poorly?

Quote

Whereas her good deeds were done when she was nearly powerless, risking her own life avoidably to help other people.

And? Most of the main characters, few of them ever labeled "kind," have risked their lives to help others in similar circumstances. Sandor saved Sansa during the riots and continues to take care of Arya even though he knows he won't profit from it. Arya saved Jaqen from the fire and engineered the Harrenhal prison break. Jaime jumped into a bear pit to save Brienne. Tyrion refused to blame Sansa for Joffrey's murder at his trial. Theon helped rescue Jeyne despite being a traumatized shell of a human being. And so on.

There's really nothing special about Sansa's shows of kindness, as I have said, and they don't make her "kind," since like the rest of them, she has plenty of awfulness to balance it out.

Quote

I'd say that there's more evidence of resentment in that particular case than toward Sansa.

That's apart from the question of 1) whether Sansa mistreated Jon and 2) whether Jon resents it. We know from AGOT that the answer to both questions is affirmative. We also see in AFFC that Sansa doesn't view Jon as important to her, since she realizes she hadn't thought of him in ages and that he's "only" her half-brother, but he's her only family left.

5 hours ago, anamika said:

She bullied Arya about her appearance, supported Joffrey against her, blamed her for Lady's death, wished her dead, proclaimed her a traitor, and called her dead sister an unsatisfactory one.

I think it says something that D&D scrubbed Sansa bullying Arya from the show. If Sansa's treatment of Arya in the books was really so innocuous and just "typical preteen girl" stuff, why were D&D so afraid to include it?

Edited March 7, 2018 by Eyes High

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

I see Sansa as a thoughtless girl who didn't think about the consequences of her actions. I find that realistic because of her age. I just don't blame her for everything that happened to her family. I think that whatever happened in kings landing would have still happened because littlefinger, varys and Cersei were plotting.

I also think that the septa reinforced and praised Sansa worse actions. She used Arya against Sansa to keep her in line. Being betrothed to the heir of the iron throne was seen in Westerosi society as the ultimate achievement and she didn't want to lose that. And it did go to her head. And she was wilfully ignorant about Joffrey and excusing his behavior. She is of the age when she starts rebelling against her parents.

I also think she was jealous of Arya because it seemed to her that Ned lets Arya get away with stuff that she couldn't get away with.

I don't excuse the bullying or the incident at the trident. I really dont like the way Sansa treated Arya. Sansa was clearly in the wrong. Arya didn't want to fight with her, she only wanted Sansa to tell the truth. Arya definitely did not want lady to die and didn't expect Cersei cruelty.

Arya didn't want an innocent to be hurt. What Joffrey did to Micah was an abuse of power. It's wrong and stupid.

Sansa did not become likable until that incident on the bridge. There were warning signs about Joffrey before that Sansa ignored.

merrick715 · March 7, 2018

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Well said.

If you mean by "typical", you mean the particular class of rich white girls who are cliquey and mean, make fun of anyone who's different (not white, not rich, not abled, not straight), while playing up the victim card anytime they're called out on it? Then yeah, I agree that Sansa is typical.

I've always privately felt that it's just another brand of white feminist bullshit that always insists on painting Sansa as this paragon of virtue that deserves the world.

Aren't Dany and Sansa the two sides of the same white feminist coin? While book Sansa is getting rightfully hammered for not considering what happened to Jeyne, show Dany seemed to have no issue leaving Missandei surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy whose plan was to kill Dany' and her own court., Danny and Missandi were holding hands, awaiting certain death, until Drogon rolled up onto the scene, and then Dany peaced out, leaving her people behind.

5 hours ago, anamika said:

On the whole, I just find Sansa to be very unrelateable as a character. She's snobby, classist, has shown no family loyalty, is not particularly smart, has no close sibling relationships or friendships etc. - some call this realistic.

George initially created Sansa to be the foil to show that the Stark family dynamics aren't t perfect, but, then he began viewing her, as an interesting character in her own right, and not a prop. I've always found it slight sexist that Sansa, is bad at math, but is able to read better than both Robb and Jon, despite being four years younger than them. Of course, girly girls, like Sansa, suck at math. There is a reason why this trope occurs, and it is called sexism.

If my girl Sansa has to die, so she isn't married off to Sandor, or Tyrion, then this is a price I'm willing to pay. Although I would be fine, if show Sansa, and show Tyrion, ended up together, since Tyrion isn't nearly, as morally repulsive, as book Tyrion.

Edited March 7, 2018 by merrick715

GraceK · March 7, 2018

Show Sansa has suffered a thousand fold for her actions in season 1. To continue to hold her childish stupidity against her forever is unfair. She is miles away from the person she started out as and I honestly don’t understand what else people want. She has been beaten, raped, betrayed...she has gone through a gauntlet of misery. I’m happy to see her finally achieve some measure of control and peace now. I’m not that invested in her character personally, but I don’t wish her ill. If she ends the series alive I’ll be happy. If anyone has suffered for their actions, she has. She’s the poster girl for be careful what you wish for.

Edited March 7, 2018 by GraceK

Katsullivan · March 7, 2018

I don't think anyone wanted to see Sansa get raped by Ramsay. The entire storyline was ridiculous and in poor taste and failed from a story-telling perspective (Sansa didn't need to be raped to be motivated to hate the Boltons .... unless it says something about D & D's perception of her character that they think that love for her murdered family was not reason for her so....) to say nothing of the entire theme of Too Much Rape that the show had become that season.

Can't speak for any one else but for me, it's two things:

from the fandom, the insistence that she's beyond reproach, the retroactive excuse/vindication of her actions, and the insistence that Sansa should essentially, by upgrading from Joffrey to Jon, come full circle and be gifted the same reward that inspired her betrayal;

and from the writers, their insistence on white-washing her actions, portraying her as some sort of political bad-ass and not someone who survived because of Littlefinger's reverse Oedipal obsession with her, and of course, to do all this, they need to dumb down every other character for her sake. Basically every-time a character talks to Sansa on the show, they need to lose IQ points.

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

While book Sansa is getting rightfully hammered for not considering what happened to Jeyne, show Dany seemed to have no issue leaving Missandei surrounded by the Sons of the Harpy whose plan was to kill Dany' and her own court., Danny and Missandi were holding hands, awaiting certain death, until Drogon rolled up onto the scene, and then Dany peaced out, leaving her people behind.

Exactly my point. In the book, that First Flight scene goes completely differently - with Dany not abandoning anyone but rather rescuing Drogon who is the one being lured, trapped to be murdered. She leaves a position of safety to save someone else. And it's insightful that as pointed out, while D&D re-wrote that scene to demonise Dany, they scrub out Sansa's less explainable actions from the show:

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think it says something that D&D scrubbed Sansa bullying Arya from the show. If Sansa's treatment of Arya in the books was really so innocuous and just "typical preteen girl" stuff, why were D&D so afraid to include it?

Eyes High · March 7, 2018

32 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Can't speak for any one else but for me, it's two things:from the fandom, the insistence that she's beyond reproach, the retroactive excuse/vindication of her actions

This. Sansa doesn't deserve a pass, no more than any other character.

As for those who suggest she has paid for her sins with what she's suffered...well, in the books she hasn't suffered more than the other main characters, and there's an argument that she has suffered substantially less. Book Sansa grew up beautiful (unlike Arya, Brienne, Sam, Tyrion, etc.), wealthy (unlike Davos, Dany, etc.), and raised lovingly by her birth parents (unlike Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Sam, Cersei, Jon, etc.). Book Sansa hasn't been crippled (unlike Bran, Jaime, Theon, etc.), disfigured (unlike Tyrion, Brienne, Jon, etc.), raped (unlike Cersei, Dany, Theon, arguably Jon depending on how you view Jon and Ygritte's first time, etc.), or starved (like Bran, Arya, Dany, etc.). So all in all, she's doing pretty well compared to the rest of the main characters.

Also, GRRM planned on killing off Sansa in the outline when all she apparently did was side with her husband and infant son against her family (which doesn't seem all that bad), so he might be cooking up a similarly grim end for ASOIAF Sansa.

Quote

and the insistence that Sansa should essentially, by upgrading from Joffrey to Jon, come full circle and be gifted the same reward that inspired her betrayal

Jonsa fans argue that Jon and Sansa are more likely to hook up because they didn't have a close relationship growing up while ignoring the very reason they didn't have a close relationship growing up: Sansa never let Jon forget that she only saw him as a half-brother, and Jon remembers and resents it. In AFFC, Jonsa fans zero in on the fact that Sansa thinks it would be sweet to see Jon again while glossing over the part in that passage where Sansa thinks that she hadn't thought of him in a long time--unlike, say, Arya, who thinks of Jon often--and thinks that he's "only" her half-brother.

I really don't think we're going to get endgame King Jon/Queen Arya, but if we're judging Sansa's endgame by what would be the perfect karmic punishment for Sansa's behaviour towards Jon and Arya, living long enough to see her little sister crowned the queen of a man who embodies everything she wanted Joffrey to be and who might have loved her instead of Arya if she had overlooked his bastardy, would certainly fit the bill on a number of levels.

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

If my girl Sansa has to die, so she isn't married off to Sandor, or Tyrion, then this is a price I'm willing to pay.

I have a suspicion that death or marriage to either Sandor or Tyrion may be GRRM's only options in mind.

GraceK · March 7, 2018

I’m going by show Sansa mostly, and I don’t think Show Sansa deserves to be miserable forever . Whatever book Sansas endgame is I dont know, I dont care much for her at all to be honest. IMO Show Sansa has changed just as much as other characters have. I love Jaime now and I hated him in season 1. I have more issues with the show writers who are very guilty of what many of you have described rather than Sansa herself.

Also the very idea of Jon/Sansa is gross and ridiculous and I think people holding out hope for Jonsa should get over it. It’s not happening lol

Katsullivan · March 7, 2018

Well Sansa isn't a real person. And Show Sansa isn't the fully realized invention that GRRM came up with. So I don't see the difference between issues with D & D versus issues with Show Sansa whom D & D have basically re-created, and they way they cut off other characters at their knees so that Sansa can stand tall over them.

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This. Sansa doesn't deserve a pass, no more than any other character.

As for those who suggest she has paid for her sins with what she's suffered...well, in the books she hasn't suffered more than the other main characters, and there's an argument that she has suffered substantially less. Book Sansa grew up beautiful (unlike Arya, Brienne, Sam, Tyrion, etc.), wealthy (unlike Davos, Dany, etc.), and raised lovingly by her birth parents (unlike Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Sam, Cersei, Jon, etc.). Book Sansa hasn't been crippled (unlike Bran, Jaime, Theon, etc.), disfigured (unlike Tyrion, Brienne, Jon, etc.), raped (unlike Cersei, Dany, Theon, arguably Jon depending on how you view Jon and Ygritte's first time, etc.), or starved (like Bran, Arya, Dany, etc.). So all in all, she's doing pretty well compared to the rest of the main characters.

Also, GRRM planned on killing off Sansa in the outline when all she apparently did was side with her husband and infant son against her family (which doesn't seem all that bad), so he might be cooking up a similarly grim end for ASOIAF Sansa.

Jonsa fans argue that Jon and Sansa are more likely to hook up because they didn't have a close relationship growing up while ignoring the very reason they didn't have a close relationship growing up: Sansa never let Jon forget that she only saw him as a half-brother, and Jon remembers and resents it. In AFFC, Jonsa fans zero in on the fact that Sansa thinks it would be sweet to see Jon again while glossing over the part in that passage where Sansa thinks that she hadn't thought of him in a long time--unlike, say, Arya, who thinks of Jon often--and thinks that he's "only" her half-brother.

I really don't think we're going to get endgame King Jon/Queen Arya, but if we're judging Sansa's endgame by what would be the perfect karmic punishment for Sansa's behaviour towards Jon and Arya, living long enough to see her little sister crowned the queen of a man who embodies everything she wanted Joffrey to be and who might have loved her instead of Arya if she had overlooked his bastardy, would certainly fit the bill on a number of levels.

I have a suspicion that death or marriage to either Sandor or Tyrion may be GRRM's only options in mind.

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m going by show Sansa mostly, and I don’t think Show Sansa deserves to be miserable forever . Whatever book Sansas endgame is I dont know, I dont care much for her at all to be honest. IMO Show Sansa has changed just as much as other characters have. I love Jaime now and I hated him in season 1. I have more issues with the show writers who are very guilty of what many of you have described rather than Sansa herself.

Also the very idea of Jon/Sansa is gross and ridiculous and I think people holding out hope for Jonsa should get over it. It’s not happening lol

I don't get Jonsa. If Jon is going to have an inappropriate relationship with, it would be Arya. I think the one thing that would piss me off is if Sansa is with gendry. Any other scenario is preferable to me.

Eyes High · March 7, 2018

10 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I have more issues with the show writers who are very guilty of what many of you have described rather than Sansa herself.

I think the show has taken several common (but unsupported in my opinion) views of characters from the book fandom and made them canon in the show:

1. Sansa is a very sweet and compassionate person.

2. Jon is Ned 2.0 in personality, a pure and innocent Golden Retriever of a man.

3. Arya is an evil little psychopath with nothing but murder on the brain.

4. Tyrion is a great guy who's deeply misunderstood.

5. Stannis is an asshole with no redeeming qualities.

6. Margaery is extremely clever and cunning.

7. Tywin isn't evil; he's Lawful Neutral.

8. Sandor is a hilariously gruff father figure type who curses a lot.

...And so on.

GraceK · March 7, 2018

40 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well Sansa isn't a real person. And Show Sansa isn't the fully realized invention that GRRM came up with. So I don't see the difference between issues with D & D versus issues with Show Sansa whom D & D have basically re-created, and they way they cut off other characters at their knees so that Sansa can stand tall over them.

My issues with D&D is what you have just said. They are clearly propping her up at the expense of other characters. Also, I’m not even a Sansa fan, she’s my least favorite Stark and I’m not invested in her story. I’m well aware she’s not real thank you . I just personally feel that the Sansa I have seen onscreen for the past seven years is undeserving of the rabid hate she gets. Nor is she deserving of the rabid praise she gets either.

There never seems to be any middle ground when it comes to Sansa and I personally find it tiresome.

Edited March 7, 2018 by GraceK

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think the show has taken several common (but unsupported in my opinion) views of characters from the book fandom and made them canon in the show:

1. Sansa is a very sweet and compassionate person.

2. Jon is Ned 2.0 in personality, a pure and innocent Golden Retriever of a man.

3. Arya is an evil little psychopath with nothing but murder on the brain.

4. Tyrion is a great guy who's deeply misunderstood.

5. Stannis is an asshole with no redeeming qualities.

6. Margaery is extremely clever and cunning.

7. Tywin isn't evil; he's Lawful Neutral.

8. Sandor is a hilariously gruff father figure type who curses a lot.

...And so on.

Agree. I really don't like how they characterize Arya. She is my favorite because she is empathetic and compassionate. She is the only person who really does not care about status. Even more than Jon and Dany. She really does see the person for who they are.

45 minutes ago, GraceK said:

My issues with D&D is what you have just said. They are clearly propping her up at the expense of other characters. Also, I’m not even a Sansa fan, she’s my least favorite Stark and I’m not invested in her story. I’m well aware she’s not real thank you . I just personally feel that the Sansa I have seen onscreen for the past seven years is undeserving of the rabid hate she gets. Nor is she deserving of the rabid praise she gets either.

There never seems to be any middle ground when it comes to Sansa and I personally find it tiresome.

Agree on this. I'm neutral about Sansa. I also feel there is no middle ground with Sansa.

Athena · March 7, 2018

Please discuss and speculate on something other than Sansa. The thread has been derailed the last two pages. Move along or your posts will be removed. Thank you.

GraceK · March 7, 2018

http://watchersonthewall.com/lena-headey-on-exciting-season-8-and-new-wrap-date-capital-set-adds-city-gate/#more-159889

GraceK · March 7, 2018

So if it does wrap up in June, when do you guys think it will premiere?

Edited March 7, 2018 by GraceK

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

29 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So if it does wrap up in June, when do you guys think it will premiere?

HBO confirmed 2019. We just don't know when in 2019. My guess is that it would premiere in March or April. I would think they would want to end the show in springtime.

GraceK · March 7, 2018

31 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

HBO confirmed 2019. We just don't know when in 2019. My guess is that it would premiere in March or April. I would think they would want to end the show in springtime.

I know they said 2019. I’m just trying to figure out what month :) April makes sense, I just don’t want to wait that long!!’

Edith · March 7, 2018

Some of the burned dummies look like Unsullied. Also spikes on the walls, dragonglass? and some kind of stakes on the ground, attacking cavalry?

Edited March 7, 2018 by Edith

Sunshinegal · March 7, 2018

Just now, GraceK said:

I know they said 2019. I’m just trying to figure out what month :) April makes sense, I just don’t want to wait that long!!’

I know. Right. I don't want to wait that long. If they start in March or April, that is still a year away until the series finale. We probably should be used to this. GRMM still hasn't released Winds of Winter.

Eyes High · March 8, 2018

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/lena-headey-on-exciting-season-8-and-new-wrap-date-capital-set-adds-city-gate/#more-159889

The GOT8 “halfway” party was pretty recent, so even the end of June still seems early.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

So if it does wrap up in June, when do you guys think it will premiere?

Not soon enough.

....Serious answer? After the Super Bowl but before Easter. If I had to guess.

37 minutes ago, Edith said:

Some of the burned dummies look like Unsullied. Also spikes on the walls, dragonglass? and some kind of stakes on the ground, attacking cavalry?

Niiiice.

/gravemaster7 and /EveryFckngChicken always post the good stuff at /Freefolk. The latter said in the comments that Moneyglass filming wrapped and the stuntmen are heading out.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Eyes High

Eyes High · March 8, 2018

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