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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High

By Eyes High
in Game Of Thrones

Meredith Quill
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Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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BitterApple

BitterApple

30 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I officially don't have a freaking clue about why Jon is meeting Cersei. I doubted this was King's Landing, but maybe I am wrong. If it is King's Landing, then maybe Jon is there to confront Cersei about her treachery and get her to join them or maybe she has kidnapped the non-combatants and he is negotiating for their release. I have read speculation on WOTW that he flies there on Rhaegal which I suppose is possible, but even that I doubt. In any case, this isn't the final episode.

Cersei's wig still sucks.

One of the *alleged* spoilers I read is that prisoners are taken during the battle at Winterfell, so Jon negotiating a release is plausible, assuming the source is true.

I also agree Cersei's wig is awful. I thought the rugs in the Twilight series were bad, but Cersei's roadkill mop is giving them a run for their money. 

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Meredith Quill
Meredith Quill

Enjoy: I laughed. 🤣

spaceghostess
spaceghostess

^This.^ Thank you.  Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Y

dragonsbite
dragonsbite

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

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GraceK

GraceK

3 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

One of the *alleged* spoilers I read is that prisoners are taken during the battle at Winterfell, so Jon negotiating a release is plausible, assuming the source is true.

I also agree Cersei's wig is awful. I thought the rugs in the Twilight series were bad, but Cersei's roadkill mop is giving them a run for their money. 

The only thing I don’t understand is why Cersei would attack Winterfell. Her plan at the end of S7 actually made sense, let them exhaust their forces in the north fighting the AOTD, then deal with the leftovers. Why would she strike before then? Unless the battle with the dead and the NK happens before she attacks WF and  after they defeat him. Still, I don’t see why she would attack Winterfell. Didn’t she want to take her lands back that she lost?

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BitterApple

BitterApple

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

The only thing I don’t understand is why Cersei would attack Winterfell. Her plan at the end of S7 actually made sense, let them exhaust their forces in the north fighting the AOTD, then deal with the leftovers. Why would she strike before then? Unless the battle with the dead and the NK happens before she attacks WF and  after they defeat him. Still, I don’t see why she would attack Winterfell. Didn’t she want to take her lands back that she lost?

The rumor I read is she sends the Golden Company, so who knows, but S7 had plenty of writing that made absolutely no sense. Even though I take all spoilers with a grain of salt, I don't put it past D&D to do something illogical. 

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SimoneS

SimoneS

(edited)
23 minutes ago, GraceK said:

The only thing I don’t understand is why Cersei would attack Winterfell. Her plan at the end of S7 actually made sense, let them exhaust their forces in the north fighting the AOTD, then deal with the leftovers. Why would she strike before then? Unless the battle with the dead and the NK happens before she attacks WF and  after they defeat him. Still, I don’t see why she would attack Winterfell. Didn’t she want to take her lands back that she lost?

I am not convinced that Cersei attacks Winterfell either. Why bother when the NK Is on his way there to the job for her? I think that NK attacks Winterfell and is responsible for the fire that we saw. The soldiers that we saw in the view could be the northern army, the Unsullied, and Dothraki coming out to fight the NK.

I definitely don't believe the rumor that Cersei kidnaps Jon. How could she when he is in the north surrounded by Dany's army and dragons? I have always speculated that it is the Jon and Dany's non-combatant allies who are the most vulnerable to Cersei's schemes. I can see Dany and Jon packing up Sam, Gilly, and the baby, along with Sansa, Varys, Tyrion, Missandei and sending them south away from the frontline only for Cersei to attempt to snatch them.

Edited by SimoneS
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domina89

domina89

13 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I definitely don't believe the rumor that Cersei kidnaps Jon. How could she when he is in the north surrounded by Dany's army and dragons? I have always speculated that it is the Jon and Dany's non-combatant allies who are the most vulnerable to Cersei's schemes. I can see Dany and Jon packing up Sam, Gilly, and the baby, along with Sansa, Varys, Tyrion, Missandei and sending them south away from the frontline only for Cersei to attempt to snatch them.

I agree.  I could see Cersei somehow using the GC to snatch Sansa and Jon going to KL to try and negotiate the terms of her release (if Cersei doesn't kill her first.)  We got a hint of Sansa's paranoia about Cersei last season, and we all know from Cersei's comments that she still has it in for Sansa even though she knows now she didn't kill Joffrey.  It's not likely but it is plausible- especially if we find out that Sophie Turner is indeed in Dubrovnik.

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GraceK

GraceK

16 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I agree.  I could see Cersei somehow using the GC to snatch Sansa and Jon going to KL to try and negotiate the terms of her release (if Cersei doesn't kill her first.)  We got a hint of Sansa's paranoia about Cersei last season, and we all know from Cersei's comments that she still has it in for Sansa even though she knows now she didn't kill Joffrey.  It's not likely but it is plausible- especially if we find out that Sophie Turner is indeed in Dubrovnik.

This obsession with Sansa doesn’t make sense either and to be honest I don’t buy it. All she has done is call Sansa a murdering whore, and now she knows Sansa didn’t kill her son so why would she care about her? Sansa is no threat to her, it’s Daenarys that is her enemy. I feel like Cersei has bigger fish to fry than Sansa Stark.

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GraceK

GraceK

She has a Targaryen queen with dragons, Dothraki and unsullied, plus the north and possibly the army of dead men to deal with and she will take time out of solidifying her power base and reclaiming her lands to kidnap and torture Sansa? Really? That’s levels of petty than I don’t think even Cersei would stoop to, and she really has no motive IMO.

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domina89

domina89

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This obsession with Sansa doesn’t make sense either and to be honest I don’t buy it. All she has done is call Sansa a murdering whore, and now she knows Sansa didn’t kill her son so why would she care about her? Sansa is no threat to her, it’s Daenarys that is her enemy. I feel like Cersei has bigger fish to fry than Sansa Stark.

But Sansa is the one that got away.  She is the one that made Cersei (in her mind) look like a fool.  Cersei doesn't forgive these things.  Her tendency to seek revenge above all logic is what makes her dangerous.  She's even more dangerous now that Jaime has abandoned her.  I could see her using Sansa as an ace up her sleeve to ensure her own survival, especially if things start going south for her.  Cersei is great at looking out for number one, if nothing else.

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screamin

screamin

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This obsession with Sansa doesn’t make sense either and to be honest I don’t buy it. All she has done is call Sansa a murdering whore, and now she knows Sansa didn’t kill her son so why would she care about her? Sansa is no threat to her, it’s Daenarys that is her enemy. I feel like Cersei has bigger fish to fry than Sansa Stark.

I'd guess she might send the Golden Company on a flying raid on WF to get Sansa as a hostage bargaining chip. They could approach from the sea most of the way and march quickly inland while Jon is elsewhere fighting the NK, the way Theon did way back when - and then take hostages, burn WF and its food reserves, and flee to their ships the way Theon SHOULD have done way back then.  Voila - in one stroke Cersei has doomed Jon's kingdom and army to starvation AND has a hostage to hold over his head to force more favorable terms.

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GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
8 minutes ago, domina89 said:

But Sansa is the one that got away.  She is the one that made Cersei (in her mind) look like a fool.  Cersei doesn't forgive these things.  Her tendency to seek revenge above all logic is what makes her dangerous.  She's even more dangerous now that Jaime has abandoned her.  I could see her using Sansa as an ace up her sleeve to ensure her own survival, especially if things start going south for her.  Cersei is great at looking out for number one, if nothing else.

Yeah I could see that

 

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

I'd guess she might send the Golden Company on a flying raid on WF to get Sansa as a hostage bargaining chip. They could approach from the sea most of the way and march quickly inland while Jon is elsewhere fighting the NK, the way Theon did way back when - and then take hostages, burn WF and its food reserves, and flee to their ships the way Theon SHOULD have done way back then.  Voila - in one stroke Cersei has doomed Jon's kingdom and army to starvation AND has a hostage to hold over his head to force more favorable terms.

Eh. Sansa isn’t exactly helpless. She still has the vale loyal to her and the North. I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy to take her at Winterfell. It’s gonna take a lot of plot armor and the directors deciding to give Cersei everything  to make the above scenario Work.

Edited by GraceK
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screamin

screamin

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Eh. Sansa isn’t exactly helpless. She still has the vale loyal to her and the North. I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy to take her at Winterfell. 

True. But Sansa is explicitly not a warrior. If Jon took most of his army North to the Wall to fight the NK, leaving only a skeleton crew of  soldiers to defend Winterfell, there's only so much that Sansa could inspire them to do if they're taken by surprise and don't get the gates shut in time. Arya could fight - but SHE was explicitly taught to be a one-on-one assassin, not a military strategist. I can see Arya fighting her way successfully out of an ambush and not being taken with Sansa, but not being able to direct a brigade of soldiers successfully against a numerically superior force. Brienne is at the Wall. Who's left?

I mean, these are the guys who handwaved the fall of Highgarden as, "Yeah, the richest region in the kingdom fell to the decimated Lannister army immediately. Just go with it."

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Edith

Edith

16 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This obsession with Sansa doesn’t make sense either and to be honest I don’t buy it. All she has done is call Sansa a murdering whore, and now she knows Sansa didn’t kill her son so why would she care about her? Sansa is no threat to her, it’s Daenarys that is her enemy. I feel like Cersei has bigger fish to fry than Sansa Stark.

I agree with you that Dany is the bigger fish to fry. The thing with Cersei and Sansa is just as Arya and the hound. Even though they haven't see each other, the show has made sure to mention their relationship ever since the drew apart and some people theorize that something is going to happen.

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GraceK

GraceK

1 minute ago, screamin said:

True. But Sansa is explicitly not a warrior. If Jon took most of his army North to the Wall to fight the NK, leaving only a skeleton crew of  soldiers to defend Winterfell, there's only so much that Sansa could inspire them to do if they're taken by surprise and don't get the gates shut in time. Arya could fight - but SHE was explicitly taught to be a one-on-one assassin, not a military strategist. I can see Arya fighting her way successfully out of an ambush and not being taken with Sansa, but not being able to direct a brigade of soldiers successfully against a numerically superior force. Brienne is at the Wall. Who's left?

I mean, these are the guys who handwaved the fall of Highgarden as, "Yeah, the richest region in the kingdom fell to the decimated Lannister army immediately. Just go with it."

You have good point.

2 minutes ago, Edith said:

I agree with you that Dany is the bigger fish to fry. The thing with Cersei and Sansa is just as Arya and the hound. Even though they haven't see each other, the show has made sure to mention their relationship ever since the drew apart and some people theorize that something is going to happen.

You guys have convinced me dammit lol

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GrailKing

GrailKing

1 hour ago, Edith said:

I agree with you that Dany is the bigger fish to fry. The thing with Cersei and Sansa is just as Arya and the hound. Even though they haven't see each other, the show has made sure to mention their relationship ever since the drew apart and some people theorize that something is going to happen.

There are hints in the book also, and we are still waiting for the Falcons guards tournament. 

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Eyes High

Eyes High

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(edited)
2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

It seems that this could potentially be Episode 6. 

D & D are there and they seem to have been directing withou Nutter in the room.

Nutter was there, as linked in the photo upthread which shows Lena in costume, Benioff, and Nutter (it's one of those photos where Kit and Lena can be seen through the window). No reason for him to be around unless it was a Nutter episode, which we know to be 8x01, 8x02 and 8x04.

If Cersei is still swanning around KL large and in charge by the time 8x06 rolls around, I'll be mighty pissed off.

Edited by Eyes High
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WindyNights

WindyNights

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Interesting! So I wonder if the article I posted was just gossip or If they were wrong on when they were spotted. Thanks for the clarification:)

I think whatever the reason is, it won’t be what we expect. What gives me hope is the fact that Cersei is not wearing her crown, and she doesn’t look happy at all. Jon also seems to be quite free, standing majestically with his cloak blowing in the wind in a different shot, and walking with no chains. At this point anything could be happening, but I’m seriously holding  on to dear hope that by what it looks like, Jon is not captive.

tumblr_p3uh54pCDl1rkh8eso1_1280.gif

 

it seems that Jon is kneeling to Cersei

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anamika

anamika

(edited)
1 hour ago, screamin said:

True. But Sansa is explicitly not a warrior. If Jon took most of his army North to the Wall to fight the NK, leaving only a skeleton crew of  soldiers to defend Winterfell, there's only so much that Sansa could inspire them to do if they're taken by surprise and don't get the gates shut in time. Arya could fight - but SHE was explicitly taught to be a one-on-one assassin, not a military strategist. I can see Arya fighting her way successfully out of an ambush and not being taken with Sansa, but not being able to direct a brigade of soldiers successfully against a numerically superior force. Brienne is at the Wall. Who's left?

I mean, these are the guys who handwaved the fall of Highgarden as, "Yeah, the richest region in the kingdom fell to the decimated Lannister army immediately. Just go with it."

Why would Brienne be at the wall? She is sworn to protect the Stark girls first and foremost. If Sansa and Arya are at WF, she will be there.

For that matter why would anyone go to the wall. The wall has fallen. We will probably see Edd and the NW brothers put up a fight, lose and pull back. The first battles against the WW will most probably take place at Karhold or the Umber stronghold - before Jon and Co. get there. Tormund and Beric maybe there or they may make their way to WF.

Next, I don't see all the fighters congregating in one spot. I can see them being split into teams on different missions - not Jon taking everyone and going to the wall. Let's see, we have Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Jaime, Davos, Tormund, Arya, Brienne, Hound, Jorah, Greyworm, Dothraki leaders, Royce etc - all of whom have fought, participated in battles and commanded armies. I don't see them all leaving WF considering that by the time Jon and co. decide on an approach to defeat the WW, the WW would be moving towards WF. Then we have Sam the slayer and Bran the 3ER. WF is too OP right now.

It looks like Winterfell will fall either to the WW or the Lannisters/GC on the show - but I do think there will be some seasoned commanders/fighters there when it happens and they will put up a good fight. This is a battle that Sapochnik is supposedly shooting for 3 months. I doubt it's just Sansa and Arya valiantly holding off their enemies with a skeleton crew of soldiers.

6 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

it seems that Jon is kneeling to Cersei

The more I see that lady there laughing, the more I feel like these guys are just playing with us. Those two soldiers (one is Cersei's stand in? Mannequins?) near the window, them filming exactly in front of that window, Benioff and all those folks with the cameras laughing...

Edited by anamika
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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

(edited)

Maybe Sansa and the surviving civilians (after the fall of Winterfell) are ambushed in the Riverlands.Cercei still has troops there. Jon and most of the soldiers are trying to buy them some time while the Night King is moving South.

Edited by OhOkayWhat
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screamin

screamin

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Why would Brienne be at the wall? She is sworn to protect the Stark girls first and foremost. If Sansa and Arya are at WF, she will be there.

 

Because she said 'fuck loyalty' to Jaime when she saw the enormity of the threat the NK posed to the world, and said it was more important than Jaime's personal loyalty to Cersei and (by implication) her own personal loyalty to Sansa and Arya. IMO, I think that means the battle against the NK is where she'll be - after all, if THAT battle's lost, her protection of Sansa and Arya at Winterfell will be ultimately useless when they're eventually overrun by corpses. She'll want to be where her fighting skill will do the most good.

Which is also why I think Jon will take most of his fighting men North to meet the King. If he waits for the NK at Winterfell, several really bad things will happen - first, whatever's left of the fleeing Night Watch will be caught up and incorporated into the Night King's army, which can march day and night while living men eventually collapse from exhaustion. Then the NK overwhelms and recruits every homestead between the Wall and WF, swelling his ranks further. Jon as King is sworn to defend those people...and if he doesn't, they join the ranks of his enemy. The longer he waits, the more powerful the NK grows. It makes sense to try to strike him down before he gets too many new recruits - but you MUST beat him quickly, because every one of your soldiers who dies immediately becomes a new enemy unless you beat the King.

So it also makes some sense to go big, hoping to overwhelm the enemy with your numbers and assure a quick victory. So there's at least some justification to Jon taking most of his forces with him.

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GrailKing

GrailKing

1 minute ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It's ok  :) ... going back to GoT subject, it seems Cercei will be in charge at lest until episode 4

Looks that way, at least we are getting stuff to talk about.

Right now I'm watching a circus called My US Government at work..... NOT! :(

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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

(edited)
5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Looks that way, at least we are getting stuff to talk about.

Right now I'm watching a circus called My US Government at work..... NOT! :(

As you said, at least those blurry pics give us a reason to speculate, shippers to fight, bloggers to create crazy theories, etc.

Kidnapped Sansa is a not so crazy theory, if you ask me...Some readers think she will be kidnapped in the Vale (book!Sansa)

Edited by OhOkayWhat
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GrailKing

GrailKing

2 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

As you said, at least those blurry pics give us a reason to speculate, shippers to fight, bloggers to create crazy theories, etc.

Kidnapped Sansa is a not so crazy theory, if you ask me...

Yes, as I said above, kinda hinted in the books and excerpts.

Now if GRRM could get the books out.

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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

Just now, GrailKing said:

Yes, as I said above, kinda hinted in the books and excerpts.

Now if GRRM could get the books out.

The problem is the books hints a gazillion of different things. When the show try to "hint" something, well, let say they usually are not subtle at all...

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GrailKing

GrailKing

1 minute ago, OhOkayWhat said:

The problem is the books hints a gazillion of different things. When the show try to "hint" something, well, let say they usually are not subtle at all...

Yeah, different mediums one has time and space to hide nuggets, the other not so much.

I want to see what Sansa, Danny and Arya are wearing for clues .

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OhOkayWhat

OhOkayWhat

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Yeah, different mediums one has time and space to hide nuggets, the other not so much.

I want to see what Sansa, Danny and Arya are wearing for clues .

Oh yes! Usually the clothes give us big clues. Maisie wearing other character clothes means Faceless men tricks...Sophie wearing a X men suit means we are reaaaaallly lost.

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glowbug

glowbug

I think it's possible they could be acting out fake scenes as someone upthread suggested. I don't think they have room in the budget to go real crazy like flying in actors who aren't supposed to film in that location (and doing their hair/makeup/wardrobe/etc.) but it doesn't seem like a huge expense to have actors who are already there act out misleading scenes. I think they did that with Jon meeting the dragons last season, and when the actress who played Shae visited the set in season 6 they put her in costume to throw people off. I hope we get more tidbits like this because we need something to sustain us until 2019. 

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GraceK

GraceK

(edited)
8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

tumblr_p3uh54pCDl1rkh8eso1_1280.gif

 

it seems that Jon is kneeling to Cersei

Maybe he’s proposing:) 

but seriously, I don’t think so. By this point, he will be aware that Cersei has betrayed them all and would have no reason to believe anything she says. It’s possible he’s just sitting, and she’s looking down at him while he tells her what’s going on. The fact that he would  willingly meet with her just to bow in exchange for her help when he knows she’s a liar defies all logic and common sense. Unless something has finally pushed him over the edge where he will finally play  dirty and he’s lying to her . Either way, the fact that that lady is laughing in the background and they were all laughing in other pictures makes me feel that they could possibly be goofing off in between takes. I’ll believe it when I see it on the screen.

If they do go that route and make Jon that stupid, I am done. I just can’t with all the stupid actions  of the others just to make Cersei keep winning and stay relevant. It’s getting really old. 

Edited by GraceK
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Edith

Edith

(edited)
2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’d like to believe that KL is under siege by Dany/Jon forces and Cersei is holding up in the Red Keep and Jon is coming for her surrender. :) 

L7R did have a spoiler 3 days ago about a possible siege in KL base on the fact that the built a new wall with towers, and in the wall there's a big hole.

 https://twitter.com/los7reinos/status/960846050931236864

 

The problem I have with this scenario, is the fact that, NK been defeated in episode 3 is completely anticlimactic. This big threat that have been tease from the beginning of the show, to end as this big nothing that first, it would have never crossed the wall if it wasn't for Jon and Dany, and second, it would never even become a threat to the south. But maybe that's just me.

 

Although if that is the case, and if the spoiler of WOTW is true, then it means that is either Dany or Jon (if he gets to ride a dragon) who burns KL. And we know from both Dany and Bran vision that the RK is not burning from the ground, like it would if it was wildfire, but instead from the top.

Edited by Edith
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GraceK

GraceK

16 minutes ago, Edith said:

L7R did have a spoiler 3 days ago about a possible siege in KL base on the fact that the built a new wall with towers, and in the wall there's a big hole.

 https://twitter.com/los7reinos/status/960846050931236864

 

The problem I have with this scenario, is the fact that, NK been defeated in episode 3 is completely anticlimactic. This big threat that have been tease from the beginning of the show, to end as this big nothing that first, it would have never crossed the wall if it wasn't for Jon and Dany, and second, it would never even become a threat to the south. But maybe that's just me.

 

Although if that is the case, and if the spoiler of WOTW is true, then it means that is either Dany or Jon (if he gets to ride a dragon) who burns KL. And we know from both Dany and Bran vision that the RK is not burning from the ground, like it would if it was wildfire, but instead from the top.

If the episodes are really going to be over a hour long, it’s possible that the battle with the NK could take 3 episodes. I like this scenario better than a Jon bends the knee or gets captured by Cersei scenario lol

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SimoneS

SimoneS

(edited)
4 hours ago, GraceK said:

but seriously, I don’t think so. By this point, he will be aware that Cersei has betrayed them all and would have no reason to believe anything she says. It’s possible he’s just sitting, and she’s looking down at him while he tells her what’s going on. The fact that he would  willingly meet with her just to bow in exchange for her help when he knows she’s a liar defies all logic and common sense. Unless something has finally pushed him over the edge where he will finally play  dirty and he’s lying to her . Either way, the fact that that lady is laughing in the background and they were all laughing in other pictures makes me feel that they could possibly be goofing off in between takes. I’ll believe it when I see it on the screen.

 

I don't buy that Jon is willingly kneeling to Cersei either. Even if he wasn't already pledged to Dany, he would never trust Cersei after she deceived them about sending what is left of the Lannister army. If he is kneeling, he must be being forced or coerced to by circumstances. If Cersei does have Sansa or any of his or Dany's other people, I could see Jon doing what it takes to free them.

Edited by SimoneS
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