Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

24 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not that I don’t personally assume Arya lives, but I expect Maisie is referring to the last scene she filmed as Arya.  She wouldn’t give away the character’s ending like that.

Possible, but Maisie's last scene was most probably her all alone in the ruins of KL. Would that be how she wants to always remember Arya - bloody alone?

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She will say, however, that her final scene was “beautiful. I ended on the perfect scene. I was alone – shocker! Arya’s always bloody alone. But I was alone and I had watched a lot of other people wrap. I knew the drill, I had seen the tears and heard the speeches.”

And well, her statement is not really giving away an ending if it's open to interpretation is it? As someone on FF succinctly put it:

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Fun doesn't equal survival. Maybe she's thrown to her death from a dragon and had a blast swinging around on the stunt wires all day. -ohbouyboatsex

This is Maisie after all. She thought that the WF plot last season was amazingly good - probably because she got to kill LF and work with Sophie.

It's nice that Maisie seems pleased with Arya's arc and that she got to do everything she wanted for the character. She's mostly wanted Arya to find peace and happiness and be more of fun season one Arya.

Edited December 7, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not that I don’t personally assume Arya lives, but I expect Maisie is referring to the last scene she filmed as Arya.  She wouldn’t give away the character’s ending like that.

The descriptions of what props the cast got to keep generally seem pretty lame, compared to when they sent Rose off and gave her Ygritte’s bow.

I thought Sophie and Maisie, would each get their needles,  and it seems it didn't happen.

[Eyes High]

We should be getting a premiere date pretty soon, right? I don't know why they can't just come out and state the date, unless there's some last-minute wrangling with the Big Little Lies folks over whether or not BLL is going to do a double episode airing as True Detective is. BLL doesn't have an official premiere date for Season 2 yet, either, although doing the math with True Detective it should be March 3rd, 2019 (which would put GOT at April 21st, since BLL will have six episodes). If both TD and BLL do double-episode airings for their premieres, GOT could be starting on April 14th, which could mean we'll get a trailer even sooner (but even then it would be no earlier than mid-February).

The first batch of new content (as opposed to teasers recycling old footage or dialogue) is usually the release of stills from the new season. Based on past seasons' schedules, we would be getting the dump of stills well in advance of the first trailer, so maybe (maybe) in late January. 

[nikma]

In script for 4x02 GRRM confirmed Starks vs Boltons in the future of the story. RIP Stannis in the books, as well. 

[tangerine95]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

In script for 4x02 GRRM confirmed Starks vs Boltons in the future of the story. RIP Stannis in the books, as well. 

To me that makes way more sense than Stannis actually beating Ramsey.The Jon vs Ramsey rivalry has been built up in the books,it would feel strange imo if they never face off.

[glowbug]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

In script for 4x02 GRRM confirmed Starks vs Boltons in the future of the story. RIP Stannis in the books, as well. 

I haven’t read the script. How did he confirm the Boltons versus the Starks? Does anyone think Stannis is going to survive in the hypothetical books that will never be written? There is debate over when and how it will happen but I think most people think he’s a goner. 

[anamika]

My post on this got deleted on here for some reason, but here it is again. From the scripts for Dany's dream:

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There’s been a lot of debate over the years about whether, when Daenerys had a vision of a destroyed King’s Landing throne room in the House of the Undying in Season 2, she was seeing ash fall from the ceiling or snow. In other words: will Winter come for King’s Landing, or will Dany’s dragons?

But the script clears it right up: “She looks up. The roof is missing and snow falls from the sky. [. . .] At the far end of the room, the Iron Throne waits for her, dusted with snow. Her dream made manifest.”

We know that the dome of the KL throne room is destroyed from the filming pictures. Dany's dreams do come true. And here it's made clear.

Now, the Iron Throne dusted with snow could hint at the NK in KL. It could also mean Jon on the throne.

These are the Bran visions that GRRM wrote in for episode 4 and possibly thought should be in there:

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Images flash by, one after another; distant places and different times, familiar faces and faces of strangers.

Ned Stark cleans Ice beneath Winterfell’s heart tree (from the original pilot).

The Mad Kings Aerys Targaryen a gaunt man with silver-gold hair and foot-long fingernails, CACKLES as he watches Ned’s father and brother burn.

Jon Snow with Ghost. Unawares.

Two children, a boy and a girl, fight with wooden swords in Winterfell’s godswood. (Benjen and Lyanna as kids).

Robb sits drenched in blood amidst the carnage of the Red Wedding, surrounded by the dead. His dead face slowly transforms into Grey Wind’s wolfish features.

Jaime and Cersei embrace in Winterfell’s old keep (the last thing Bran saw before he fell, from the pilot).

A black direwolf with green eyes (SHAGGYDOG) looks up suddenly from a bloody kill, as if he sense Bran.

Hints of strange small children with very dark eyes.

The shadow of a dragon passes across the rooftops of a great city (King’s Landing, where Bran has never been).

Arya with Needle in hand. Her face MELTS and CHANGES.

The visions end with a distinctive quartet of northern hills (per Chris Newman’s location photograph), serving as the backdrop to the LARGEST WEIRWOOD we’ve ever seen.

Past and future. Characters featured - Ned, Aerys, Jaime, Cersei, Lyanna, Benjen, Robb, Jon, Ghost, Shaggydog, Arya, needle, dragon in KL, small children with dark eyes (Children of the forest?, Varys' children?), Weirwoods. I would think Tyrion would feature in here somehow if he is involved in the destruction of KL.

6 hours ago, nikma said:

In script for 4x02 GRRM confirmed Starks vs Boltons in the future of the story. RIP Stannis in the books, as well. 

Is this from the bit about the direwolves?

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[ [N.B. A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.]]

I doubt Stannis is gone very fast. I can see Jon/Rickon and their direwolves being involved since their stories seem to be converging there - Jon from the wall and Rickon/Davos from Skagos. But I think Stannis will still be in the game for some time yet.  I am still not entirely sure where, when and why he is going to burn Shireen. The North plot is so humongous. I think the Northerners will turn on Stannis at some point. When is the question...

We could have Starks+Stannis since Stannis is a Jon/Arya ally. We could have Nymeria/Shaggydog vs Ramsay's hounds.

Remember how Shae's betrayal came out of nowhere?

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In Martin’s version, though, Tyrion is straight with Shae—reminding her that Ros, the last prostitute he slept with, ended up being beaten and murdered. Martin also has Tyrion trying to knock some sense into Shae by throttling her as he explains that his father will “hang you. If the gods are good, the fall will snap your neck. If not, you’ll strangle slowly, swinging in the air, your face going black as you fight to breathe. An ugly way to die.” Shae responds to Tyrion’s violence by pulling a knife, lunging at him, and threatening: “I pray you die.”

GRRM's Tyrion is a dark character - trying to convince his love to leave by throttling her. D&D's Tyrion on the other hand gently gives her the 'it's not you, it's me' speech and breaks up with her. 

And we can see into their thought process here. Like Joanna Robinson says,  GRRM is laying the groundwork for Tyrion eventually strangling her - " This acrimonious farewell better sets up Shae’s eventual betrayal of Tyrion but may have too heavily foreshadowed Tyrion strangling her by season’s end."  D&D's version of Tyrion is kinder and Shae's betrayal is sudden.  It's like them deleting the Bran-Sansa scene of the WF plot or explaining what Sansa does after her LF revelation because they want the surprise of the LF reveal in the trial.

If there is a Tyrion betrayal and King Bran next season, I am not expecting there to be a cohesive, logical path towards that - because D&D prefer unpredictability rather than heavy foreshadowing and proper characterization. 

What people call as predictable is actually GRRM building a story with clues and foreshadowing in the narrative. Tyrion betrayal is a popular theory for a reason. Dany is warned about him in the books. Book Tyrion is dark and bitter and gets angry/jealous when beautiful, young women spurn him. That's very clearly evident in how he treats the sunset slave girl.

Jon/Dany becoming rulers is predictable because GRRM has spend entire chapters letting them lead people, rule and make the hard decisions. There is even a narrative arc and plot in the books that could lead to ruler Bran in the North - considering Bran did a very good job ruling the North, is on his way to becoming the 3ER and is not the robo Bran from the show.  This is true for pretty much most of the characters.

Edit: I will just say that I am enjoying watching asoiaf reddit Stannis fanboys trying to wrap their heads around the idea that maybe, just maybe it is Jon/Rickon (And Ghost/Nymeria/Shaggy Dog), and not Stannis, after all who plays a role in defeating the Boltons. Battle of the Bastards sounds like something GRRM comes up with and it was a name bandied around in places like Westeros.org long before the show premiered because of the personal rivalry set up between Jon and Ramsay. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

I haven’t read the script. How did he confirm the Boltons versus the Starks? Does anyone think Stannis is going to survive in the hypothetical books that will never be written? There is debate over when and how it will happen but I think most people think he’s a goner. 

He may win the first battle, but not the second, and if he's the one who orders Shireen burned he's fooked ( though I could see Salyese do it without his knowledge or command. )

[Colorful Mess]

Yeah BOTB is a book plot, no shocker there. 

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, nikma said:

In script for 4x02 GRRM confirmed Starks vs Boltons in the future of the story. RIP Stannis in the books, as well. 

He only confirmed dogs v direwolves which could mean a lot of different scenarios.

Stannis has to burn Shireen still so he's safe until then.

[anamika]

55 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yeah BOTB is a book plot, no shocker there. 

How come? Did you not say that these scripts are false and to trick the audience and all that? And that actor interviews are more reliable. Maybe GRRM is fooling people into thinking there will be direwolves vs hounds with his little note.....

I am now second guessing a lot of what these guys say in interviews. D&D said that they decided to put Sansa in the North before or during season 2 . GRRM was still planning for fArya in season 4. But apparently they all sat together and worked everything out during season 3. So what's going on?

It seems more like D&D realized during season 4 that they had no more book material for Sansa and GRRM had still not finished the next book and then decided to do the fArya plot with Sansa.

What do you guys think about the 'Largest Weirwoods ever seen'? Sounds like a place that Bran would be happy to be around. Somewhere in the North? Lands of Always Winter? I think it could point to where Bran ends up....

Edited December 8, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Did you not say that these scripts are false and to trick the audience and all that?

The scripts only matter when they “hint” or “ foreshadow”  that Jonsa is endgame. When the scripts state anything that outright state that Jon loves Daenarys, or that Sansa is shady AF, or anything that confirms that Dany is not evil, then all of a sudden scripts don’t matter at all and the writers are trying to trick the audience 😂🙄

My favorite argument is “ It only matters is what’s on onscreen!”

well ok..but onscreen, Sansa is being a bitch and betraying Jon.

“ well, that’s not what her motivations really are according to interviews and commentary “

well ok...but in interviews Sophie Turner states that she’s resentful and wants to be queen .....

....well but that’s just the actress trying to mislead the audience!!!!

 Well ok... but according to commentary shes supposed to be leaning on Littlefinger and there’s genuine conflict between Arya and Sansa..

” well ok but Arya is just a psycho and being mean”

Ok but it’s just a mislead. 

 

So basically, we can’t trust the commentary, or the interviews, or the scripts, we can only trust what we see onscreen....but what we see onscreen is also pretty shitty character wise when it comes to Sansa. If anything, reading scripts and hearing commentary and getting inside her head should HELP, but it doesn’t.

its her onscreen behavior that’s pretty deplorable, and the scripts, commentary, and interviews back up EVERYTHING we see onscreen, so wtf is the debate here? The only debate comes from the stans that refuse to see anything negative at all about her behavior or character and hold her up as some kind of feminist icon , while dragging down actual heroic characters like Jon and Dany and insist on making her the hero of this story when she’s closer to a villain.

Edited December 8, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

He only confirmed dogs v direwolves which could mean a lot of different scenarios.

 

It can only mean Starks vs Ramsay at some point in TWOW or even ADOS. 

[nikma]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

am now second guessing a lot of what these guys say in interviews. D&D said that they decided to put Sansa in the North before or during season 2 . GRRM was still planning for fArya in season 4. But apparently they all sat together and worked everything out during season 3. So what's going on?

I don't know. But we do know that Alex Graves knew about Sansa-Ramsay plot and he gave hints to Sophie while they were shooting S4, which was in the second half of 2013. And the first outlines for S5 were written in the beggining of 2014, so we know for sure that D&D knew this before they started working on S5.

Maybe they just didn't told Martin, or they decided after the scripts for S4 were finished in Jun/July of 2013.

And I still think that GRRM knows very little about the future of the story except some major events and plot developments, so that's the reason D&D were changing some things in order to prepare the story for the endgame (no Dorne, then big Dorne, then small Dorne). I'm sure there are more examples that we will never know.

The Hound beeing with BwB is something I think they decided later. White hunt as well. Or how will Gendry return. They just knew they wanted Hound back and that NK will get a dragon. 

Some major things I think they did know since they started working on S4. Daenerys and Jon, Cersei on IT, Tyrion as Dany's Hand, BOTB, many other things we saw in S4-7 and whatever will happen in S8. 

[nikma]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM's Tyrion is a dark character - trying to convince his love to leave by throttling her. D&D's Tyrion on the other hand gently gives her the 'it's not you, it's me' speech and breaks up with her. 

I don't think that it's done only for the shock. I mean Shae's death and fact that she slept with Tywin was shocking in the books as well. There were no hints that she could be with Tywin.

 

I think the way GRRM wrote Tyrion and Shae in that scene just wasn't not consistent with their characters in the show and it had to be removed.

 

In the show we saw revenge of jealous and humiliated women, in the books she just didn't care for him at all.

[Colorful Mess]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

How come? Did you not say that these scripts are false and to trick the audience and all that? And that actor interviews are more reliable. Maybe GRRM is fooling people into thinking there will be direwolves vs hounds with his little note.....

Its a script note to the producers. The note is an example of how they write in audience manipulation that proves my point.  "We should build up the dogs," i.e. make Ramsay's dogs look fearsome and unstoppable. But they're not. Twist: the direwolves come in to save the day. The author is telling them to add more manipulation dust. But I'd believe BOTB is a book plot regardless of a script note from the author that Starks vs. Ramsay are coming to a head. 

When did I say actor interviews were more reliable? That's not my position. 

The article also illustrates how unreliable narrator is written into the scripts. Tyrion thinks Joffrey started the War for the Five Kings. That wasnt fully correct. Littlefinger had a much larger role than Joffrey and Tyrion is ignorant of that. So even the point of view trap that the author employs in the books is in the scripts to some extent.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

If there is a Tyrion betrayal and King Bran next season, I am not expecting there to be a cohesive, logical path towards that - because D&D prefer unpredictability rather than heavy foreshadowing and proper characterization. 

It’s funny that this script is being used by some as proof of GRRM’s superior writing because to me, if anything, this script is proof to me of GRRM’s wilful ignorance of the realities of TV production and the fact that D&D were wise to cut him out of the scriptwriting process. His script went 20 pages over, included tons of irrelevant detail, a plotline D&D decided to drop two seasons before, food descriptions that would be ruinously costly, a planned direwolf/dog fight that would be extremely expensive and almost impossible to film, the male main character violently throttling his love interest apropos of nothing, and D&D are the ones who need to brush up on their TV storytelling savvy? 

Ultimately, GRRM had a huge conflict of interest in his involvement with the show, because he wanted to drag things out as long as possible to buy himself more time. Easing him out of the scriptwriting process was definitely the smart play. I feel a lot better after reading Joanna Robinson’s writeup about GRRM not writing any S8 episodes. D&D had to do so much work on his last script that they probably figured they might as well write it themselves anyway.

[nikma]

And this script is final proof that GRRM lied when he said he thought they will do AFFC and ADWD in 2-3 seasons, since it's clear from this note that he knows that S6 will be TWOW material. 

 

Good comment from reddit:

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Going 20 pages over, writing extensively about feasts, introducing a bunch of named minor characters, and setting up a half dozen diverging storylines with no plan for resolving them? Classic GRRM.

Edited December 8, 2018 by nikma

[nikma]

I know GRRM had experience in screenwriting long ago, but what we saw from this script feels like problems JK Rowling has with Fantatsic Beasts movies. Thy are good in writing novels, but I feel they make some big mistakes when it comes to screenwriting. He, just like Rowling, is writing his script, like a book. 

And I feel he never explores the liberty from POV structure that show gives him. In every episode he wrote, scenes with non-POV characters were written by Benioff and Weiss. 

And introduction of Penny feels like he wanted to correct his mistake from the books, because she came out of nowhere in ADWD. But that character really is not necessary for the show. Missandei played that role in Tyrions storyline. In a way. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by nikma

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Its a script note to the producers. The note is an example of how they write in audience manipulation that proves my point.  "We should build up the direwolves," i.e. make Ramsay's dogs look fearsome and unstoppable. But they're not. Twist: the direwolves come in to save the day. The author is telling them to add more manipulation dust.

Yes, and that information is there in the script - because it's a note to the producers! That's why these scripts are for the production crew and not fake scripts for the audience. And no, they are not manipulating anyone. GRRM is asking them to spend some time on Ramsay's hounds because they will have an important role later on when facing the direwolves. He is not asking them to write the hounds as some unbeatable monsters, lol!

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It’s funny that this script is being used by some as proof of GRRM’s superior writing because to me, if anything, this script is proof to me of GRRM’s wilful ignorance of the realities of TV production and the fact that D&D were wise to cut him out of the scriptwriting process. His script went 20 pages over, included tons of irrelevant detail, a plotline D&D decided to drop two seasons before, food descriptions that would be ruinously costly, a planned direwolf/dog fight that would be extremely expensive and almost impossible to film, the male main character violently throttling his love interest apropos of nothing, and D&D are the ones who need to brush up on their TV storytelling savvy?

So we should have no proper characterization and character development on the show because it's more important to cut to the chase and just get to an ending no matter how badly written?

I agree that the show cutting out all the bloat from his script with the 5 pages of food description etc. is the right way to go, but should they not take care with regard to the characters if they are planning on getting to his ending? People here absolutely rejected the Tyrion betrayal theory back when I was talking about it because show Tyrion is too good - but now it looks like that may be happening.

What was the benefit of changing the scene from Tyrion throttling Shae to Tyrion just breaking up with her? In one scenario we know what Tyrion is capable of, sets up Shae's betrayal and it foreshadows what he does later. In another, Tyrion remains a sympathetic good guy who gently breaks up with her for her own good, Shae's betrayal is sudden and people are shocked when he strangles her later.  Would it have cost them extra screen time or CGI to write GRRM's Tyrion in that case?  Are their main male characters not allowed to do bad things? Is GOT not supposed to be different with gray characters and all that? Is Jaime not still a favorite despite trying to rape Cersei? I am not sure why Tyrion is exempt from doing bad stuff.... Especially when the lead female characters are not exempt from doing bad stuff.

D&D are good at streamlining GRRM's stuff. No doubt about it. But their characters are terribly written. I think there is no difference between season one Sansa and season seven Sansa - she could have sat out the 6 seasons in the middle and nothing would have been missed.  Sansa ends season 6 saying - "Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had" and tells Jon that "Only a fool would trust LF" and then the entire next season is about her wanting what Jon has and trusting LF.  Are Sansa fans happy with this writing for her?

The only well written character on the show is Cersei. But yeah, let's see what good guy Tyrion ends up doing next season. I am sure it will be as well written as the season 7 WF plot because D&D are so much more better at this than GRRM.

Edited December 8, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

23 minutes ago, anamika said:

Shae's betrayal is sudden and people are shocked when he strangles her later.

And it was different in the books? I mean, the scene was different, but the feeling of shock was the same. There was a popular theory that Tyrion will kill Shae? Theory that she is fucking with Tywin? 

25 minutes ago, anamika said:

What was the benefit of changing the scene from Tyrion throttling Shae to Tyrion just breaking up with her?

The benefit was that Tyrion and Shae in GRRM's script don't feel like show characters at all. It was not consistent with their personalities in the show. 

[nikma]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

"Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had" and tells Jon that "Only a fool would trust LF" and then the entire next season is about her wanting what Jon has and trusting LF. 

 In the first season Sansa wants to be Queen because she believes in fairytales. In S7 she wants to be Queen because she thinks Jon is not competent enough to rule, he doesn't want to listen to her and she think she is a better option. But she never did anything to really take the crown from Jon, she just thinks she would be better than him. She never even used "bastard" argument against Jon. She loves him, she just thinks he is not good enough for that position. 

 

And entire season was not about her trusting LF. He completely lost control of her, she just turns to him when she thinks Arya is too dangerous and unpredictable. LF is the devil she knows. D&D said that in Inside the episode. LF wants to exploit complicated relationship between Arya and Sansa, because he knows that she will turn to him when she feels like the walls are closing  in upon her.

 

LF manipulated everyone for decades and now Sansa is an idiot for falling for his manipulations for two episodes? Then every character in this story is an idiot.  It's not like she made any damage.

Edited December 8, 2018 by nikma

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Yeah BOTB is a book plot, no shocker there. 

Jon tells Stannis not to take wildlings, as the lords won't follow him, thus setting up the wildlings following Jon later, after the battle on ice.

[Colorful Mess]

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, and that information is there in the script - because it's a note to the producers! That's why these scripts are for the production crew and not fake scripts for the audience. And no, they are not manipulating anyone. GRRM is asking them to spend some time on Ramsay's hounds because they will have an important role later on when facing the direwolves. He is not asking them to write the hounds as some unbeatable monsters, lol

My position has always been that the scripts are REAL. 

The directions to production are written to fool the audience like an author manipulates a reader. Based on the Winterhell plot, even character motives or thoughts in scripts will be used in service of that. In most cases they won't spell out when they're manipulating people.

That is why we should take the scripts well salted and read them with a critical eye to the twists that they might want to play out later. Or even better: ignore them and focus on the final product.

Spending time on the hounds is for the puposes of creating audience tension. It is manipulative. We're supposed to think they're scary blood thirsty monsters and the villain will keep winning with them. It's that way in the books too. Ramsay's dogs are scary for a reason - but apparently people were STILL mislead by this because they thought for years that Stannis is Ramsay's ultimate rival. 

[Colorful Mess]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Jon tells Stannis not to take wildlings, as the lords won't follow him, thus setting up the wildlings following Jon later, after the battle on ice.

Thats a good point. It also explains why Jon and Sansa had such a hard time finding Lords to support them. Stannis used up all their political capital. Him losing likely demoralized them or they're exhausted. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I agree that the show cutting out all the bloat from his script with the 5 pages of food description etc. is the right way to go, but should they not take care with regard to the characters if they are planning on getting to his ending?

Sure, but I guess I could equally ask whether GRRM should not take care with regard to the plot if he's planning on getting to any sort of ending at all.

My original point was that far from being proof of GRRM's superior writing abilities, the 4x02 script as described by Joanna Robinson actually exposes GRRM's defects, not only as a TV writer but also as a writer, period. In fact, I'd argue that the problems with the 4x02 script go beyond GRRM's issue with realistic TV writing and go to the very heart of the reason GRRM hasn't been able to finish the books: a tendency towards overwriting and bloat, a penchant for cooking up plotlines with no plan for resolving them, an obsession with irrelevant detail (food, setting, etc.) at the expense of the broader narrative, and an unwillingness to make necessary changes to streamline the story. 

Now, does all of that mean D&D are amazing, infallible writers? Of course not. They have plenty of flaws of their own which have been extensively catalogued here and elsewhere. However, they have shown that they not only understand what needs to be done to drive the story forward, an understanding GRRM clearly lacks, but also that they are willing to do it, which is something GRRM is incapable of doing. This has allowed them to do something GRRM seems unable to do: tell the story to its end. In that very limited sense, D&D's writing is superior to GRRM's. It's easy to complain about D&D's horrible writing and hold GRRM's writing up as a shining example of the gold standard, but GRRM has plenty of problems in the writing department as well, and I think this 4x02 script demonstrates that. GRRM's writing problems are of a different kind than D&D's, but they're still big problems.

I mean, sure, it would be nice if D&D had better character development skills, but it would also be nice if GRRM could just show some restraint for once and maybe, just maybe, shut up about the fucking food and eliminate a few dozen plotlines that aren't going anywhere important. Just saying.

As for Tyrion's betrayal and the Dragonpit scene in Season 8, I've heard so much conflicting information on this that I don't know what to think. I do know that if Tyrion does betray the Starks or Dany, Tyrion throttling Shae in 4x02 in an attempt to drive her away wouldn't have done anything to make a Season 8 betrayal appear less shocking. 

Lastly, D&D had already learned Tyrion's endgame from GRRM in 2013 (assuming they hadn't already heard it before that point) when they wrote Season 4. If they had to change course in Season 4 to foreshadow Villain Tyrion, you'd think they would have eased up on the Saint Tyrion stuff, but instead, they doubled down on it, even changing his murder of Shae to self-defence. It could be because they figured they would just pull a shocking reversal a la Stannis in Season 8, sure, or maybe it's because they already knew that Tyrion never turns into a villain and therefore they wanted to preserve his heroic image. Tyrion is far from the only lead character whose more sinister deeds have been purged from the show, though. Many characters have been whitewashed. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

When something won't fit in the story, D&D are like "who cares, the show must go on" and there are some plot points where characters' motivation is not well explained and they needed more scenes, or sometimes only more lines to explain them.  But I was always able to forgive them, because of the very unusual circumstances they are working in.

For example, I think the main reason for conflict between Sansa and Arya in the books will be the fact that Sansa did betray her father to Cersei, she gave Cersei very important informations that lead to Ned's death. But D&D never did that in the show, and GRRM never told them to include that in S1.

And no one knew back then that GoT will even have 7 seasons. So they didn't know the future of the story, GRRM didn't finish the books, and he didn't even tell them to include that(And what is even more funny is that he wrote 1x08, he could put few lines there), but conflict between Sansa and Arya needed to happen, so they used what they had from S1. That letter. 

It's just the reality of the situation.

[ElizaD]

The 4x02 script is the peak of both Good GRRM, with a huge plot point that affects tons of major character relationships and actually reaches a shocking yet logical climax, and Bad GRRM, with all the extras heaped on top of this big event suggesting the fatal bloat that would soon kill the momentum of the books and leave them stuck in a mire of endless worldbuilding.

It's always hilarious to see readers twisting themselves into pretzels when something comes up that confirms that yes, Joffrey sent the catspaw, and no, GRRM doesn't intend to give another answer just because you don't like the one that's already in ASOS. Time to face it, it's not just D&D who can come up with unsatisfying wonky resolutions to plot points that have served their purpose.

Dogs vs. direwolves in a season or two, wow. That's like the one occasion when GRRM seemed to acknowledge that the plot needs to keep on moving at a pace suitable for TV. A total contrast to the "10+ seasons" stuff that serves no purpose except to make book fans feel betrayed by D&D.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

When something won't fit in the story, D&D are like "who cares, the show must go on" and there are some plot points where characters' motivation is not well explained and they needed more scenes, or sometimes only more lines to explain them.  But I was always able to forgive them, because of the very unusual circumstances they are working in.

For example, I think the main reason for conflict between Sansa and Arya in the books will be the fact that Sansa did betray her father to Cersei, she gave Cersei very important informations that lead to Ned's death. But D&D never did that in the show, and GRRM never told them to include that in S1.

And no one knew back then that GoT will even have 7 seasons. So they didn't know the future of the story, GRRM didn't finish the books, and he didn't even tell them to include that(And what is even more funny is that he wrote 1x08, he could put few lines there), but conflict between Sansa and Arya needed to happen, so they used what they had from S1. That letter. 

It's just the reality of the situation.

Yeah it won't be the letter, it will be Arya finds out Sansa ran to Cersei and ultimately gave out info detrimental to the house.

[GraceK]

the bottom part about Jon watching Dany is what’s really interesting. He’s drawn to both Drogon and Daenarys, which I find fascinating and I think will come into play next season. Dragon riding anyone?? 😁😁 

 

the scripts are being posted on FF if anyone is interested in some insights.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by GraceK

[bubble sparkly]

What annoyed me about the Sansa/Arya letter drama last season is that they didn't need to go all the way back to Sansa's s1 letter when they had the very recent BOTB / Vale army letter to play with.  They could have easily still had Sansa spout her ridiculous "I won the BOTB" stuff, but then have Arya do some investigating about it.  After a bit of digging Arya would have realised that Sansa went behind her military commander's back and lied to his face (by omission) about there being no army available to help.  It would have actually made sense for Sansa to be scared at this news getting out because Lyanna Mormont would have probably called for Sansa to be executed as a traitor to the North, given Bear Island men were killed in the battle. 

Also, Arya is already suspicious and thinks Sansa wants Jon's power.  She probably would have jumped to the conclusion that Sansa lied about the Vale army because she wanted Jon to die during the BOTB so she could be the leader of the North.  This would have given Arya a more solid foundation for her threat to kill Sansa and remove her face lol.

[Eyes High]

I wonder if this whole business of Sansa wanting the North to herself as the S7 scripts seem to suggest will have any bearing on her S8 arc. Will she encourage Jon and Dany to get married after Littlefinger raised the possibility with her, thinking a marriage will get Jon out of her hair and leave the North to her? Will she go the opposite direction and try to push them apart, fearing that she will lose what little influence she had over Jon with Dany in the picture? 

[anamika]

So far from the scripts, there is nothing anywhere that indicates that Tyrion was secretly sabotaging Dany. He thinks Dany maybe like her father after she burns the Tarlys about which he is  horrified. The Tarly burnings leaves 'Tyrion with the implications of what he has just seen'.  He genuinely comes up with the wight hunt as a solution to Jon's problem of no one believing them. He feels powerlessness and guilt watching the dead Lannister soldiers - they were his team.

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

So far from the scripts, there is nothing anywhere that indicates that Tyrion was secretly sabotaging Dany. He thinks Dany maybe like her father after she burns the Tarlys about which he is  horrified. The Tarly burnings leaves 'Tyrion with the implications of what he has just seen'.  He genuinely comes up with the wight hunt as a solution to Jon's problem of no one believing them. He feels powerlessness and guilt watching the dead Lannister soldiers - they were his team.

These scripts are a treasure trove of character insights and information IMO.  

Edited December 9, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

Just now, GraceK said:

These scripts are a treasure trove of character insights and information IMO. 

Yes! It lays out everything clearly and even gives us an indication of what may happen in the future. Like Jon thinking he would be a hypocrite if he criticized Dany for field of fire 2.0. Well done Jon for recognizing that!  Hopefully many characters recognize this next season when they confront Dany.

And as per the script, I am again, not seeing anything wrong with what Dany did there that makes Tyrion compare her to Aerys.... The script explains how the dissenters were taking their cues from Randyll and he keeps siding with the Lannisters because he's angry Tyrion calls him a traitor. Dany was even willing to let them go the wall.

I continue to think that the Tarly burnings is in there only for the Dany-Tyrion conflict. And Sam is going to get over it super fast.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wonder if this whole business of Sansa wanting the North to herself as the S7 scripts seem to suggest will have any bearing on her S8 arc. Will she encourage Jon and Dany to get married after Littlefinger raised the possibility with her, thinking a marriage will get Jon out of her hair and leave the North to her? Will she go the opposite direction and try to push them apart, fearing that she will lose what little influence she had over Jon with Dany in the picture? 

LF says it to Sansa as a warning though and follows it up with unnaming him KITN. And then Sansa thinks about it but can't because Arya would not go along with it.

So it's probably the latter. Hell, she may even turn against Jon when she finds out his true parentage.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

What annoyed me about the Sansa/Arya letter drama last season is that they didn't need to go all the way back to Sansa's s1 letter when they had the very recent BOTB / Vale army letter to play with.  They could have easily still had Sansa spout her ridiculous "I won the BOTB" stuff, but then have Arya do some investigating about it.  After a bit of digging Arya would have realised that Sansa went behind her military commander's back and lied to his face (by omission) about there being no army available to help.  It would have actually made sense for Sansa to be scared at this news getting out because Lyanna Mormont would have probably called for Sansa to be executed as a traitor to the North, given Bear Island men were killed in the battle. 

Also, Arya is already suspicious and thinks Sansa wants Jon's power.  She probably would have jumped to the conclusion that Sansa lied about the Vale army because she wanted Jon to die during the BOTB so she could be the leader of the North.  This would have given Arya a more solid foundation for her threat to kill Sansa and remove her face lol.

Do you honestly think 1: She or Jon would trust his ass? Sansa said they do it themselves, not knowing how badly Robb screwed up. 2: She didn't write that letter until Jon with her imploring him to travel for more men steadfastly refused, and this happened only after they traveled about 1000 miles that she made that decision, can you guarantee Jon would have said yes?

3: The raven had to travel 1400 miles round trip from DWM to and from MC, Jon and Sansa then doubled back to the wall and down the Kings Road.

Now I said she could had told him the night of the battle plans, but can you or I or anyone else say that LF answered her directly, seeing his plan was to let both sides weaken each other and arrive at the very last second, and he told those plans to WHO? not Sansa, no; to Cersei 1100 miles south of WF.

They believed Ned, Davos was more accurate, she had no info from LF from what we can tell, but she knew Ramsey and Ramsey had something THEY did not have Rickon Stark.

And as far as the North, they don't trust southern lords and I doubt they want LF in their camp either.

Those men would have died whether she knew they were coming or not because of 3 facts : LF plan to Cersei, that no one at WF knew about. 2: Ramsey had Rickon Stark period; and used him to play Jon.  Ramsey would have played that card ASAP! 4: JON broke his own plan, it was a Kobayashi Maru for him ; can you guarantee he let Rickon die to wait for LF ?

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

the bottom part about Jon watching Dany is what’s really interesting. He’s drawn to both Drogon and Daenarys, which I find fascinating and I think will come into play next season. Dragon riding anyone?? 😁😁 

 

the scripts are being posted on FF if anyone is interested in some insights.

Are they in one spot?, they seem to be helter skeltered.

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Are they in one spot?, they seem to be helter skeltered.

They are not all in one link, but they were posted around the same time so they should be near each other . 

Edited December 9, 2018 by GraceK

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

They are not all in one link, but they were posted around the same time so they should be near each other . 

Yeah, found them just finished them.

Thank You.

[bubble sparkly]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I wonder if this whole business of Sansa wanting the North to herself as the S7 scripts seem to suggest will have any bearing on her S8 arc. Will she encourage Jon and Dany to get married after Littlefinger raised the possibility with her, thinking a marriage will get Jon out of her hair and leave the North to her? Will she go the opposite direction and try to push them apart, fearing that she will lose what little influence she had over Jon with Dany in the picture? 

I think Sansa might suggest a D/J marriage after the Northern Lords have their inevitable bitch session about the evil foreign whore who dares to come and save their asses.  IMO Sansa's best outcome personally is for D/J to marry and take the throne, leaving her in charge of the North.  If Sansa tries to get Jon to ditch Dany then she is stuck with Jon as King/Warden of the North, and he has proven that he doesn't listen to her ideas and essentially just wants her to sit down and shut up. Besides, if Jon doesn't marry Dany then he will be strongly encouraged to enter into a political marriage with a prominent Northern lady, which would likely reduce Sansa's influence over Jon anyway as the wife makes her presence felt.

I am going to roll my eyes so hard though if someone, be it Sansa or another person, finally proposes the idea of a Jon/Dany marriage and everyone acts like this is a brilliant, revolutionary idea.  The fact that Tyrion, Davos or anyone else on Team J/D wasn't pushing for this from about 7x04 onwards makes no sense based on how common political marriages are in Westeros to secure alliances.  Add in the fact that Dany and Jon were clearly hot for each other and Jon is pretty much the only age appropriate, fully appendaged dude from a prominent family left, and it is absolute madness!

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think Sansa might suggest a D/J marriage after the Northern Lords have their inevitable bitch session about the evil foreign whore who dares to come and save their asses.  IMO Sansa's best outcome personally is for D/J to marry and take the throne, leaving her in charge of the North.  If Sansa tries to get Jon to ditch Dany then she is stuck with Jon as King/Warden of the North, and he has proven that he doesn't listen to her ideas and essentially just wants her to sit down and shut up. Besides, if Jon doesn't marry Dany then he will be strongly encouraged to enter into a political marriage with a prominent Northern lady, which would likely reduce Sansa's influence over Jon anyway as the wife makes her presence felt.

I am going to roll my eyes so hard though if someone, be it Sansa or another person, finally proposes the idea of a Jon/Dany marriage and everyone acts like this is a brilliant, revolutionary idea.  The fact that Tyrion, Davos or anyone else on Team J/D wasn't pushing for this from about 7x04 onwards makes no sense based on how common political marriages are in Westeros to secure alliances.  Add in the fact that Dany and Jon were clearly hot for each other and Jon is pretty much the only age appropriate, fully appendaged dude from a prominent family left, and it is absolute madness!

The weird thing is that LF uses a Jon and Daenerys marriage as a warning to her. Instead of telling her to push it, he uses it to scare her into unnaming Jon before it happens.

[anamika]

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

The weird thing is that LF uses a Jon and Daenerys marriage as a warning to her. Instead of telling her to push it, he uses it to scare her into unnaming Jon before it happens.

I think LF was seeing it as Jon having more power now that he had Dany's support. The Northern houses are depleted and as Jon says there are fewer than 10,000 men left and most of that should be the Vale army. And the Vale and their army would be more loyal to Catelyn's children than Jon. And LF was able to manipulate Glover into supporting Sansa over Jon. As it stood Jon had just the support of a few small Northern houses.

Allying with Dany is a strategic move that gives Jon a lot of power. We already see Dany listening to Jon and LF feels that Jon/Dany together would be tough to defeat. And isn't LF's ultimate goal to sit on the Iron Throne with Sansa by his side? So he wants Sansa to be more than just Queen in the North - so maybe that's where he is coming from in terms of Jon/Dany being a threat.

Which reminds me of this hilarious post that popped up after season 6...

Edited December 9, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

So far from the scripts, there is nothing anywhere that indicates that Tyrion was secretly sabotaging Dany. He thinks Dany maybe like her father after she burns the Tarlys about which he is  horrified. The Tarly burnings leaves 'Tyrion with the implications of what he has just seen'.  He genuinely comes up with the wight hunt as a solution to Jon's problem of no one believing them. He feels powerlessness and guilt watching the dead Lannister soldiers - they were his team.

Again. Twists are written from the audiences perspective. Even if Tyrion is sabotaging Daenerys that would't be written until S8's scripts.

 

Arya "thinks" that Sansa wil kill her in E7 because that's what audience should think. Cersei thinks Euron is really leaving and so on.

Edited December 9, 2018 by nikma

[anamika]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Again. Twists are written from the audiences perspective.

Arya "thinks" that Sansa wil kill her in E7 because that's what audience should think. Cersei thinks Euron is really leaving and so on.

 

People over using the word 'audience perspective' despite having no idea what it means.

Cersei is fooling everyone gathered there that she is surprised Euron is leaving - script says that Cersei is surprised.

Arya is fooling LF that everyone is gathered there for her trial - hence Arya gets there and acts as if she is on trial.

When characters are by themselves and having internal monologues - that's actually how they are feeling! That's not to trick the audience or anything because as has been mentioned several times, these scripts are not for the audience and there is no 'audience perspective' here - whatever the hell that means.

So Arya and Sansa were actually fighting with each other when no one was around to see.

And this:

Quote

Tyrion Lannister walks in front of the smoke plume, surveying the ravaged loot train. He grew up seeing the Lannister army as his team; it's destruction brings him no joy. As he watches the Dothraki loot the wagons and the dead, a feeling of powerless overcomes him

For most of his life, these were the soldiers who protected his life. Now he has helped in their slaughter

This is not for the audience. This is Tyrion walking around by himself on the battlefield and realizing for the first time what it actually means when he is allied against his own house. Maybe this is why he hesitates to directly attack the Lannisters.

I am curious to see the script for when Tyrion argues against Dany attacking the Red Keep on Dragonstone. I wonder if there are any Tyrion thoughts in there about this...

Quote

Tyrion can't bear to watch; he turns away to Dany. But watching her is not any easier. It forces him to reckon with the possibility that Daenerys Targaryen, their last, best hope is also her father's daughter.

These are things that the character Tyrion is actually reflecting on when he watches the Tarly burnings. This is not the thoughts of someone sabotaging Dany. Yet.

Quote

Dany walks away, leaving Tyrion to wrestle with the implications of what he has seen.

If Tyrion is conflicted or having second thoughts about Dany, this is the point at which it should start.

If there are twists to fool an audience, it will be there in the script. Because the audience is not expected to see the scripts - until the show/film has premiered.  I am sure the twists for the usual suspects and the crying game was in the script.

If Tyrion is planning a betrayal next season, those things will be there in the script for next season.

Edited December 9, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

"Audience's perspective" is what D&D want audience to feel and that's what they wrote for their directors. I am sure that in S2 or S3 scripts they didn't write that Roose is going to betray Robb. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by nikma

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Tyrion can't bear to watch; he turns away to Dany. But watching her is not any easier. It forces him to reckon with the possibility that Daenerys Targaryen, their last, best hope is also her father's daughter.

This personally bothers me. Dany got on Drogon in Meereen and unleashed him on the blockade and she was joined by her two other dragons to boot. He now suddenly wonders if she is also her father's daughter? 

Tyrion, the Hand, torched the Blackwater with wildfire to get rid of his family's enemies. He led a sortie against Stannis's men that almost got him killed. Maybe he needs a list of all the noblemen and soldiers whose deaths he is responsible for during that particularly murderous episode. 

I think his inner thoughts make him a hypocrite. But maybe the idea of using the dragons in war would have gone down better had it from him.

Edited December 9, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

This personally bothers me. Dany got on Drogon in Meereen and unleashed him on the blockade and she was joined by her two other dragons to boot. He now suddenly wonders if she is also her father's daughter? 

Tyrion, the Hand, torched the Blackwater with wildfire to get rid of his family's enemies. He led a sortie against Stannis's men that almost got him killed. Maybe he needs a list of all the noblemen and soldiers whose deaths he is responsible for during that particularly murderous episode. 

I think his inner thoughts make him a hypocrite. But maybe the idea of using the dragons in war would have gone down better had it from him.

It bothers me too . It’s definitely hypocritical but it does make sense from his perspective. The slavers in Mereen personally made him look bad and betrayed  him by breaking his deal, and attacked his Queen and himself directly. In blackwater, it was Stannis against his family, and he was still on his family’s side. It was kill or be killed. This instance, it’s like the adage “ be careful what you wish for”. These are Lannister men. His men. His brother and Bronn. It’s easy in the abstract to say you want to hurt or overthrow your family but in action it’s something else. He never actually saw his family lose before I don’t think.  It’s 100% hypocritical and annoying but understandable. 

@nikma, I think these inner thoughts are actually quite enough to justify a betrayal in season 8. We don’t need to have him actually be sabotaging her secretly, just the build up of regret and conflict can be enough foreshadowing of what might be a turn next season. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

If Tyrion is conflicted or having second thoughts about Dany, this is the point at which it should start.

I think it got amplified here; but he started ( for family reasons ) at the point he learns of Myrcella's death ( obviously off screen ) I also think he put 2 and 2 together about Joffery during his voyage to Mereen. Look who Varys brought to the team.

When it gets finalized we haven't seen yet, or it's off screen.

Edited December 9, 2018 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think Sansa might suggest a D/J marriage after the Northern Lords have their inevitable bitch session about the evil foreign whore who dares to come and save their asses.  IMO Sansa's best outcome personally is for D/J to marry and take the throne, leaving her in charge of the North. 

I agree that the smartest move given Sansa's desire to have Jon out of the picture is for Sansa to support a Jon/Dany marriage in the hopes that Jon will head south once everything is settled and leave her to run the North without his interference. The EW.com article seemed to imply that Sansa could eventually warm up to Dany, so maybe she comes to support a marriage because she likes Dany and honestly believes that Dany would make Jon happy, as opposed to pushing for a marriage for purely selfish reasons. I doubt it, though; if the S7 scripts suggest anything, it's that D&D are leaning hard into Sansa's desire for power as a defining character trait. It would be pretty sad if Sansa, having been forced to marry for the sake of others' ambition, tries to foist a match on Jon and Dany for no other reason than to cement her authority and get Jon out of the way, but her experience being punished by Joffrey for Robb's crimes didn't stop her from recommending that Alys Karstark and Ned Umber be stripped of their lands as punishment for their fathers' crimes, so...

One of the S7 script pages posted on /Freefolk had Arya smiling when she's pleased by Sansa's implicit admission that Jon loves Arya more than Sansa. Although it's fair to say that Sansa could have had a great relationship with Jon and Arya if she had treated them better growing up (and she would probably be closer with Brienne if she treated her better), there is something awfully sad about TV Sansa, even assuming her horrible trauma with Ramsay out of the equation.

The Northern lords may respect Sansa and flirt with the idea of her leading them when they're angry at Jon, but no one likes her. She has no friends, and she's too damaged at this point to approach anyone not her blood relative with any emotions other than suspicion and contempt. Lyanna and Lord Glover were outright contemptuous towards her in Season 6. Jon prefers Davos' advice to hers. No one considered her for a moment as a candidate for QITN except Littlefinger. Brienne serves her but is also loyal to Arya, someone who has made it clear she will side with Jon against Sansa every time. Bran has become a stranger to her. Arya and Jon, who are really her only surviving siblings if you think "Bran" died in the cave as Meera said, don't particularly like her. The only person who claimed to have her interests and her interests alone at heart used her, sold her, lied to her the whole time, and ultimately had to be executed. I mean, every character still alive in the show has their fair share of sad stories, but that is bleak.

Sansa at the beginning of the show wanted to be like Cersei, and one of the saddest things about Sansa is that she has become this brittle, jaded, ruthless person, hostile to anyone outside her family and desperate to hold on to power. Maybe she can turn it around in Season 8, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote

I am going to roll my eyes so hard though if someone, be it Sansa or another person, finally proposes the idea of a Jon/Dany marriage and everyone acts like this is a brilliant, revolutionary idea.  The fact that Tyrion, Davos or anyone else on Team J/D wasn't pushing for this from about 7x04 onwards makes no sense based on how common political marriages are in Westeros to secure alliances.  Add in the fact that Dany and Jon were clearly hot for each other and Jon is pretty much the only age appropriate, fully appendaged dude from a prominent family left, and it is absolute madness!

I think the reason the wisdom of Jon and Dany marrying didn't occur to anyone except Littlefinger in Season 7 is that D&D needed Jon and Dany to ally and fall in love without any whiff of political opportunism or calculated seduction. I also think that's why D&D wanted Jon to fall in love with Dany before finding out about his claim to the throne.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Eyes High