Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

[glowbug]

I’m so thankful for Friki’s spoilers. Even if they turn out to be total rubbish at least they’re giving us something to talk about and speculate about. It’s making the time until the start of season 8 go a teensy bit faster. 

[GraceK]

23 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Translation?

[Happy Harpy]

55 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Translation?

"It seems that user name will tell new spoilers about GOt on October 6th at event" (if my rusty Spanish basics worked).

I wonder if the guy is Javi, from the Spanish 7R site?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

"It seems that user name will tell new spoilers about GOt on October 6th at event" (if my rusty Spanish basics worked).

I wonder if the guy is Javi, from the Spanish 7R site?

It is that Javi, yes.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Translation?

I had to use GT, I understood Javi, as HH and EH already stated.

[nikma]

New interview with Sophie Turner about S8.

 

http://www.ign.com//articles/2018/09/27/game-of-thrones-season-8-sansa-stark-sophie-turner-hbo-series-finale-will-divide-fans-will-be-disappointed

[anamika]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

New interview with Sophie Turner about S8.

http://www.ign.com//articles/2018/09/27/game-of-thrones-season-8-sansa-stark-sophie-turner-hbo-series-finale-will-divide-fans-will-be-disappointed

Pretty much what she has been saying earlier as well:

Quote

"A lot of tears. I think, you know, as an actor it was really satisfying -- I think for everyone, everyone’s storylines -- to be able to act out the way that it all ends. It was really satisfying for us," Turner said. "Who knows if it will be satisfying for the fans. I think a lot of fans will be disappointed and a lot of fans will be over the moon, I think. I think it will be really interesting to see people’s reactions, but for me reading the script it was just like heartbreaking to read at the very final page of the script it just says, ‘End of Game of Thrones’. That was really emotional."

Turner teased Sansa's arc during the eighth and final season, saying, "She kind of takes ownership over who she is and what she stands for. Over the course of the series she’s been completely unaware of what she wants, where she wants to be, who she really is, and at the end of this season, I feel she is the most self-assured character in the show."

Is she talking about the end of season 8 here? So Sansa ends the show as the most self-assured character. Does this mean that Sophie has basically given away Sansa's ending here?

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[Happy Harpy]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Is she talking about the end of season 8 here? So Sansa ends the show as the most self-assured character. Does this mean that Sophie has basically given away Sansa's ending here?

Based on her track record when it comes to hinting at her character's storyline before the season aired? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Based on her track record when it comes to hinting at her character's storyline before the season aired? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Sophie has given away endings before. She's a bit of a blabbermouth. Before season 6 premiered she mentioned that Sansa would end the season on top - giving away that Sansa survived and ends up as a leader free from Ramsay.

So as per what Sophie says here, it means Sansa ends the show as one of the most self-assured characters - probably as some kind of endgame leader. She's basically given away Sansa's ending on the show.

[nikma]

She will rule the North and be one of the most powerful person in Westeros.

[anamika]

24 minutes ago, nikma said:

She will rule the North and be one of the most powerful person in Westeros.

There is no way that GRRM is writing Sansa to rule the North in the books. She's the Stark least connected to the people of the North, it's functioning and the Old Ways followed by the Starks. I see Bran/Rickon or Arya as possible leaders in the North/WF in the books. If Sansa ends up as some kind of endgame leader of the North - then that's a show only ending for her. IMO.

Sansa could also be lady of the Vale and control the Vale and it's resources. Or stay married to Tyrion and be lady of Casterly Rock. Or be a leader in some great council deciding the future of Westeros.

Whatever it maybe, looks like we now know for sure that Sansa survives next season and as a very self-assured character. And considering this is Sophie, it's highly possible that the 'Pack survives' tattoo also gave away that all three Stark kids make it.

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

I don't think TV Sansa has needed to "take ownership over who she is and what she stands for" for quite some time, and she certainly hasn't evinced a lack of self-assurance for quite some time, either, but whatever, Sophie. This quote in particular is some bullshit:

Quote

“Over the course of the series she’s been completely unaware of what she wants, where she wants to be, who she really is"

When was the last time Sansa was completely unaware of what she wants and where she wants to be? Sansa has always been very clear about what she wants, and since the end of Season 1 or so, apart from being excited about getting to marry Loras, it's always been the same thing: to go home. Ditto for where she wants to be (Winterfell) and who she is (a Stark of Winterfell). She's been extremely clear about her identity and her feelings about her place in the world for the past few seasons. "We never should have left," "Back then I only thought about what I wanted," etc. etc.

I suppose this could be a veiled reference on Sophie's part to Sansa having some sort of last-minute epiphany about where she wants to be--that she doesn't belong in Winterfell or that she doesn't want to be Lady of Winterfell or that maybe living in KL isn't the worst thing in the world after all or whatever--and whatever she realizes she wants being completely incompatible with what the show has suggested to date Sansa wants, but it makes no sense whatsoever taken at face value. Maybe Sophie was misquoted...?

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

So as per what Sophie says here, it means Sansa ends the show as one of the most self-assured characters - probably as some kind of endgame leader. She's basically given away Sansa's ending on the show.

Sansa surviving was already a pretty good bet based on Sophie's presence for the 8x06 Dragonpit scene filming, but Sophie saying that Sansa ends up as the most self-assured character didn't really give anything away, like that guy who claimed months ago that Sansa ends up in "a position of power." How could Sansa not end up in a position of power if she survives?

Edited September 27, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

There is no way that GRRM is writing Sansa to rule the North in the books.

Denial is strong in you. I really don't see how you can even think that Arya will rule anything in the books or the show.

Edited September 27, 2018 by nikma

[anamika]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa surviving was already a pretty good bet based on Sophie's presence for the 8x06 Dragonpit scene filming, but Sophie saying that Sansa ends up as the most self-assured character didn't really give anything away, like that guy who claimed months ago that Sansa ends up in "a position of power." How could Sansa not end up in a position of power if she survives?

Well just being in the dragon pit is not confirmation of survival considering BoatsexBaby had actions scenes happening there for the first half of episode 6 involving Sansa and Friki has Tyrion dying in the second half of episode 6.

But this basically confirms that Sansa makes it and is in a position of power. I agree that if she survives, she is not going to be taking orders from anyone - season 7 clearly showed us that. Which is why I think she may get married to SweetRobin - a husband that can be controlled. In the books, she already has SR under her thumb. She would be like the Queen of Thorns.

16 minutes ago, nikma said:

Denial is strong in you. 

Yes, it is. As GRRM said, Rickon is coming back in TWoW and he is most certainly not dead, Bran is still the Prince of Winterfell with a proper functioning mind and Arya still quotes Ned's teachings to this day and continues to have a close connection to the people of the land. It's Bran or Arya with Rickon as their heir who is going to be in charge of rebuilding the North in the books.

On the show Sansa calls Ned stupid and the Northerners are a bunch of whiny, traitorous weather vanes that I would not wish on anyone.  Sansa could be the Stark to take over considering dead Rickon, zombie Bran and psychopathic Arya.

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

42 minutes ago, nikma said:

Denial is strong in you. I really don't see how you can even think that Arya will rule anything in the books or the show.

This interview states that Sansa to date has been completely unaware of what she wants and where she wants to be over the course of the series and that she "takes ownership" of who she is and what she stands for in Season 8 (suggesting she has never taken ownership of who she truly is before Season 8). Given that Sansa's been all "Winterfell Winterfell Winterfell" for six seasons and has been pretty clear in Seasons 6 and 7 about standing up for Winterfell, repping the Starks, and having no use for anyone who isn't a Stark or Stark-affiliated, this seems like a potential indication that Sansa doesn't end up with Winterfell.

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

But this basically confirms that Sansa makes it and is in a position of power. I agree that if she survives, she is not going to be taking orders from anyone - season 7 clearly showed us that. Which is why I think she may get married to SweetRobin - a husband that can be controlled. In the books, she already has SR under her thumb. She would be like the Queen of Thorns.

Although I have my doubts about Sansa marrying Robin, Sansa refusing to marry for love and instead marrying a politically advantageous but dimwitted husband so that she can have a puppet to control would certainly be a plausible logical endpoint for her arc. 

...I would really enjoy Sansa telling the Northern lords to go fuck themselves and waltzing off to the Vale or the Riverlands or King's Landing or what have you.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

...is going to be in charge of rebuilding the North i

You speak with such conviction, but D&D talked with GRRM and said they are using his ending. Rickon is coming back in TWOW, so what? He came back in S6 as well. Arya's arc was never about politics or ruling and Bran is a wizard. Jon will rule the whole Westeros. Sansa is only character that makes sense as ruler in the North.

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

This interview states that Sansa to date has been completely unaware of what she wants and where she wants to be over the course of the series and that she "takes ownership" of who she is and what she stands for in Season 8 (suggesting she has never taken ownership of who she truly is before Season 8). Given that Sansa's been all "Winterfell Winterfell Winterfell" for six seasons and has been pretty clear in Seasons 6 and 7 about standing up for Winterfell, repping the Starks, and having no use for anyone who isn't a Stark or Stark-affiliated, this seems like a potential indication that Sansa doesn't end up with Winterfell

I don't think that she will rule because of that interview. Sophie is known hor her nonsensical interviews that mean nothing.

[anamika]

51 minutes ago, nikma said:

 I really don't see how you can even think that Arya will rule anything in the books or the show.

Have you read the books? Do you think Varys is wrong about fAegon being a good king?

Quote

Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Now let's take Arya:

-  trained in arms by Syrio and the FM. No military education (as in strategies and tactics and all) yet.

-  She got a noble girls education which included reading and writing, and is learning multiple languages in HoB&W. She is also learning about how to lie, to control her emotions, poisons and potions

-  Arya has possibly studied History under the Septa. She is good in mathematics and running a household.

-  Arya comes from a union of two very religious people of two different religions (Faith of Seven and Old Gods) and is now learning about the God of Many Faces.

- She has lived with the fisherfolk, and worked with her hands, cooked and tended wounds living with Brusco and working in Harrenhal.

-  She has swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash her own clothes at need: "She stank so badly that she stripped right there...She swam until she felt clean…Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice." (aGOT, ARYA III)

- She knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid: She experience all of this during her Riverland adventures.

- Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them: Arya hasn't been taught this, but she instinctively has these in her as she has shown before. Like Dany, Arya also has a closeness to the smallfolk and tries to help them.

And apart from these, Arya is the Stark kid who spends her time with Ned when he discusses matters with the Lords and his men. She sits with him when he eats with his men. In fact she thinks on how this is important - and something Jon does not do at the wall leading to his isolation and eventual mutiny. She has traveled with Ned to places like white harbor and like Ned follows the old way - the man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. She also mingles with the WF smallfolk making friends with all of them. She feels for all of them - even a butcher boy like Mycah.

Many of the female leaders of the North are like Arya - Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly for ex. Or Alys Karstark who gets on horse and heads to the wall because Jon is there. Pro-active feisty girls not afraid to swing a sword.

She forms her own pack with the people she tries to help and becomes their leader. She has a wolf named after Queen Nymeria who is leading her own fierce wolf pack through the riverlands.

So yes, I do think that Arya will end up as a leader/ruler in the books. Whether of the North or in KL, I don't know. When GRRM bemoaned the loss of the 5 year gap this is what he had to say about that:

Quote

"If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

The only character who can possibly be 12 at the end of the series is Arya.

Now, why don't you point out why you think Sansa will rule the North in the books. And please don't tell me that it's because she build a WF model out of snow. In terms of being the ruler of the North, what qualifications does Sansa have in the books?

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

GRRM just published an excerpt from Fire and Blood, detailing Queen Alysanne's visit North. Some fun tidbits:

1. The Lord of Winterfell was married to a Mormont.

2. Alysanne has a female sworn shield.

3. There's a nod to the Knight of the Laughing Tree theory, in that in a tourney one of the knights is unmasked as a girl (a wildling).

4. Alysanne's dragon Silverwing refuses to fly north of the Wall. (I wonder if GRRM is incapable of posting an excerpt without getting some sort of passive-aggressive jab in at GOT. This would be it.)

Edited September 27, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

So yes, I do think that Arya will end up as a leader/ruler in the books. Whether of the North or in KL, I don't know

And why would D&D change that?

 

And things you said don't prove anything. Her arc was never about politics and ruling. 

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

Now, why don't you point out why you think Sansa will rule the North in the books

Because it is logical cumlination for her character and her arc that was always about politics and loyalty to her family. 

And because D&D know the ending of the books.

Edited September 27, 2018 by nikma

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

And why would D&D change that?

 

And things you said don't prove anything. Her arc was never about politics and ruling. 

And Sansa's arc in the books is about ruling?

Again, why don't you point out where GRRM wrote Sansa an arc about ruling/leading the North in the books. And the qualifications he gave her in the books to be capable of ruling.You know like he gave Jon, Dany and all the stuff for Arya I listed above. And Bran actually ruling WF in Robb's absence etc. 

Point out something similar for Sansa in the books where GRRM is giving her the qualifications to rule in the North which is a hard land with hard people.

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

And Sansa's arc in the books is about ruling?

Again, why don't you point out where GRRM wrote Sansa an arc about ruling/leading the North in the books.

GRRM stoped writing the books at the beginning of Act II. Sansa is learning to rule in the Vale and she will continue to do so if he ever writes that book.

 

In Act II Arya is in Braavos learning to be killer and Bran is with wizard. Sansa is with politicians and lords.So which Stark is GRRM preparing to rule? It's obvious.

Rickon is an extra.

Edited September 27, 2018 by nikma

[Minneapple]

In the books, Sansa's Vale arc has a clear point. She is learning how to run a castle. The next logical conclusion is that she will at some point run Winterfell. D&D skipped over her Vale arc in the show, but then they tried to make amends for it by pretending that she aleady knows how to run Winterfell. Yet another reason Sansa getting raped by Ramsey was not only an offensive plot, it was also stupid.

As for a politically advantageous marriage, Sansa has been through one in the books (likely a second with Harry) and two on the show, so I would enjoy it if she said fuck you to the institution of marriage, or wound up marrying for love.

Nothing about Arya's arc in the books or the show signals that she's going to rule anything. Arya is a roamer, an adventurer. I think she will live but perhaps go on an adventure to end the show. Maybe with Gendry.

[nikma]

Instead of that convoluted theory where you try to put Arya in that Varys' quote it is much easier to look what GRRM did in second act so far, where characters are preparing for the endgame.

Each Stark kid got a mentor. Assassin, wizard and politician. And D&D know the ending and they've followed that path in S7. The characters in the show are simplified but the point is the same.

So, no Arya won't rule. If you are writing for future ruler you don't put him with wizard or in school for assassins. You do what GRRM did with Sansa, Dany or Jon in the last 2 books.

GRRM is not that complicated.

Edited September 27, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So as per what Sophie says here, it means Sansa ends the show as one of the most self-assured characters - probably as some kind of endgame leader. She's basically given away Sansa's ending on the show.

Fine if you think so, but don't ask "does it mean" if your mind is already made up :)

40 minutes ago, nikma said:

I don't think that she will rule because of that interview. Sophie is known hor her nonsensical interviews that mean nothing.

Yep. I remember "Darth Sansa" and "Powerful Sansa" in seasons 4 to 7, and above all the disappointment of her fans.

[anamika]

23 minutes ago, nikma said:

GRRM stoped writing the books at the beginning of Act II. Sansa is learning to rule in the Vale and she will continue to do so if he ever writes that book.

So you accept that in 5 books, he did not give Sansa an arc about ruling/leading the North? Even though he was able to give these arcs to Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion?

Nothing at all, since you seem unable to point out one single qualification she has to rule the North unlike the many examples I gave for Arya. And you are ridiculing the idea of Arya being a leader/ruler while pushing the notion that no other Stark but Sansa will rule the North in the books? lol!

And Sansa learning to rule in the Vale is the same as ruling in the North? Both places are the same? Run with the same philosophies? Inhabited by the same type of people? Sansa can just rule the North like she ruled the Vale?

Sansa learning to navigate the politics of the Vale means that she can lead/rule the Vale effectively. Not the North.

23 minutes ago, nikma said:

In Act II Arya is in Braavos learning to be killer and Bran is with wizard. Sansa is with politicians and lords.So who is GRRM preparing to rule? It's obvious.

Rickon is an extra.

Arya learning from the FM does not mean she is going to forget everything she learned from Ned. Hell, she kills Dareon in AFfC because he's a deserter from the NW and in the North deserters are executed. And she still holds onto Needle. She's learning more skills from the FM and that does not negate any of her qualities that I listed above which Varys mentions is what makes a good ruler.

So what if Bran is the 3ER? He's a little kid. I doubt he is going to become the zombie Bran of the show written by D&D so that Sansa could be lady of WF when Bran was right there. They already had to jump through loops to justify Jon as KITN while Sansa was there. Bran can be the 3ER and still be lord of WF. In the books, he is still the Prince of WF. He has the actual experience of ruling the North and has learned from Luwin, Ned, Rodrik and Jory etc. Does all that disappear because he becomes the 3ER? Bloodraven was a skilled politician for many decades before he became the 3ER.

And Rickon will survive to carry on the Stark name - that's his sole purpose. GRRM stressing that Rickon is "certainly not dead" tells me that he is one of those characters that he said will be alive in the books while killed on the show .

38 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

4. Alysanne's dragon Silverwing refuses to fly north of the Wall. (I wonder if GRRM is incapable of posting an excerpt without getting some sort of passive-aggressive jab in at GOT. This would be it.)

 

lol!

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

Just now, anamika said:

20 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

So you accept that in 5 books, he did not give Sansa an arc about ruling/leading the North

No. Her arc is in the Vale is about ruling North, just like how Dany's arc in Meereen is about ruling Westeros.

 

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

And you are ridiculing the idea of Arya being a leader/ruler 

Yes, because it is ridiculous. You don't train character to be assassin and fighter since book 1 if she is going to be lady/ruler.

 

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

 

And Sansa learning to rule in the Vale is the same as ruling in the North

 Yes. Just like Jon and Dany are learning to rule Westeros at the Wall and in Meereen.

 

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

24 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

Arya learning from the FM does not mean she is going to forget everything she learned from Ned

Ned is important for every Stark child.

[anamika]

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

No. Her arc is in the Vale is about ruling North, just like how Dany's arc in Meereen is about ruling Westeros

Okay, then tell me how Sansa's arc in the Vale is about ruling like Dany's arc in Meereen. You know like Dany had to take care of trade deals, negotiate for peace, defeat an insurgency, deal with famine and disease etc. Can you point out such similar facts for Sansa that makes her qualified to be a ruler?

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yes, because it is ridiculous. You don't train character to be assassin and fighter since book 1 if she is going to be lady/ruler.

You keep saying this while ignoring that whole block of text I posted above which shows that Arya is qualified to be a ruler - as per Varys. And yet you are unable to point out a single qualification that GRRM has given Sansa in five books that would let her rule the North.

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

 Yes. Just like Jon and Dany are learning to rule Westeros at the Wall and in Meereen.

In ADwD Jon:

 - Negotiated with King Stannis for control of the NW and castles and men

 - Negotiated with the Iron Bank for food and money

-  Negotiated with the Wildlings to let them through the wall in return for hostages and valuables.

-  Set his men to training and got more recruits. Sent spearwives to man castles and women to cook and sew

-  Plans to build greenhouses to grow food and experiments on wights in the ice cells

-  Outwits Alys' uncle and sends word to Stannis about his treachery

-  plays the game by arranging a marriage  between Alys and the Thenn.

Now, since according to you Sansa is also learning to rule the Vale the same way, please list out all the things she did in the Vale while learning to rule there.

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

Ned is important for every Stark child.

Can you point out where in the books Sansa thinks on Ned's teachings or just anything about her thinking about the old ways of the North, the smallfolk there, the Northern lords etc ? On the show they had to give an important line in Arya's narrative 'Lone wolf dies...' - which Arya thinks on very often - to Sansa. Because Sansa herself does not have any lines in the books where she reflects on her father's sayings.

This argument that only Sansa is qualified to rule and that Arya is a mindless assassin is show only. In the books Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion are all more qualified to rule and lead than Sansa.

Sansa? Is learning to play the game from LF behind the scenes in the Vale. She is least qualified to rule the North in the books.

On the show, If she does end up in charge of the North, I am pretty sure that will be a show only thing.

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Reminder - this topic is book-adjacent not book focused.

If the main topic of your post concerns only book talk, then you haven't been paying attention. Please pay attention. "I hate asking a second time..."

[onyxrose81]

Nothing in the show points out that Arya will rule anything but it is there in the books, like anamika laid out.  I don't know if it will amount to anything but to say Arya was never shown things about ruling is inaccurate.  

[tangerine95]

Based on the books alone I always thought that Arya's story could lead to being a leader in the north.That quote from Varys about fAegon and why he's a good potential king did remind me of Arya.Sansa imo is learning how to beat LF in his own game rather than how to rule the north.But I'm fine with the show ending with Sansa as warden of the north or whatever,it's not like the show gave Arya any kind of ruling arc either.

[anamika]

28 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

Nothing in the show points out that Arya will rule anything but it is there in the books, like anamika laid out.  I don't know if it will amount to anything but to say Arya was never shown things about ruling is inaccurate.  

The show did Arya, Jon and Bran so dirty to prop up D&D fave Sansa in the North.

I don't know how anyone can read the books and think that all Arya is and all she is going to be is a FM assassin. If the show is going to give us Arya's book ending, then quite a few folks are going to be surprised by her unpredictable ending. Maisie Williams herself mentions that she had to go back and track Arya's story right from season one to make sure she got the story right.

Edited September 27, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

My reply was deleted and I don't care enough to write it again.

 

In short, since GRRM will never finish his books I have no intention to be part of this eternal debate. In the show Sansa as ruler in the North is the logical culmination of her story, just it is in the books. In both mediums her mentor is politician.

Arya never had that kind of arc in the show or the books.

[Eyes High]

Given that the TV endgames and book endgames will supposedly be the same, it's worth pointing out that GRRM has confirmed that there has never been a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North:

Quote

[Have there ever been a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen of Winter?]

No. Although I do hope to someday write the Dunk & Egg story where they travel to Winterfell and meet the She-Wolves.

There are two ways to interpret that:

1. There never has been, and there never will be. (The She-Wolves don't count, since they were fighting over which of their sons would take over, and it seems like it went Beron --> Beron's son Donnor --> Donnor's brother Willam. And isn't "She-Wolves" a bit of a misnomer, since the women involved seem to be Starks by marriage?)

2. There's a first time for everything.

Maybe Bran ends up with Winterfell after all.

A propos of the excerpt, Alysanne seems pretty cool. She reminds me of Dany or Margaery.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Eyes High

[Sunshinegal]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM just published an excerpt from Fire and Blood, detailing Queen Alysanne's visit North. Some fun tidbits:

1. The Lord of Winterfell was married to a Mormont.

I have this very weird theory that Bran will be married to Lyanna Mormont in the end.  Don't know why I believe this, I just think it will be cool.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

The show did Arya, Jon and Bran so dirty to prop up D&D fave Sansa in the North.

I don't know how anyone can read the books and think that all Arya is and all she is going to be is a FM assassin. If the show is going to give us Arya's book ending, then quite a few folks are going to be surprised by her unpredictable ending. Maisie Williams herself mentions that she had to go back and track Arya's story right from season one to make sure she got the story right.

Especially Bran.  I think that Bran/Arya are very important.  I read somewhere that Bran was the reason GRMM wrote the series in the first place.  Arya is the only character to be in all the books.  I also think D&D did a disservice to Sansa's story.  From the books, I think that Sansa's story arc is to be a diplomat and not a ruler.  From the books, I don't think Sansa wants to be a ruler or be used for her claim.  It seems to me that Sansa wants to go home and to be loved for herself and not for any claim.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Given that the TV endgames and book endgames will supposedly be the same, it's worth pointing out that GRRM has confirmed that there has never been a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North:

There are two ways to interpret that:

1. There never has been, and there never will be. (The She-Wolves don't count, since they were fighting over which of their sons would take over, and it seems like it went Beron --> Beron's son Donnor --> Donnor's brother Willam. And isn't "She-Wolves" a bit of a misnomer, since the women involved seem to be Starks by marriage?)

2. There's a first time for everything.

Maybe Bran ends up with Winterfell after all.

A propos of the excerpt, Alysanne seems pretty cool. She reminds me of Dany or Margaery.

She doesn't come off as Daenerys-like. She comes off as more Margaery-like. She's more into soft power. Daenerys isn't like that at all. 

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

Especially Bran.

I agree with this so much. Season 7 Bran had me seeing red. If you compare that Bran with the Bran if the earlier seasons ( and especially in comparison to his book counterpart) you can see they jumped the shark. He was definitely meant to be much more then just google Bran and exposition. I really hope they redeem him in season 8 and get his character back on track .

[Colorful Mess]

Sansa becoming "self-assured" may involve knowing what she's good at and applying it.

From Seasons 1-6 she was trying to figure out how she can get by with just her wits (GRRM S4 interview). Sansa's arc has been about learning the art of political finesse and playing the game of thrones to protect herself. She may feel self-assured in how to do that now. 

Since so much of her story is tied up with suitors and matchmaking, I feel like she's on a queen consort arc, not a queen-ruling-alone arc. Tyrion notices how Joffrey wasted her talent for it. 

None of us are writing canon for Book 6 with our theories. D&D have more knowledge than any of us. I think the Northern plot in the show is more likely than any fan theory right now. Littlefinger's plan to marry Sansa to Harry and take Winterfell is probably going to fail, just like Stannis' plan to marry Jon to Val and take Winterfell failed. Jon and Sansa were already being pushed toward the same castle in the books. The two Stark outsiders taking it back makes more sense than Stannis doing it. In fact, taking Winterfell is a big deal since its something neither Stannis, Robb, or Theon could do in the show.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Sophie has given away endings before. She's a bit of a blabbermouth. Before season 6 premiered she mentioned that Sansa would end the season on top - giving away that Sansa survived and ends up as a leader free from Ramsay.

So as per what Sophie says here, it means Sansa ends the show as one of the most self-assured characters - probably as some kind of endgame leader. She's basically given away Sansa's ending on the show.

She can be self assured, and be wrong at the same time; so her endgame may not be what people think.

7 hours ago, anamika said:

There is no way that GRRM is writing Sansa to rule the North in the books. She's the Stark least connected to the people of the North, it's functioning and the Old Ways followed by the Starks. I see Bran/Rickon or Arya as possible leaders in the North/WF in the books. If Sansa ends up as some kind of endgame leader of the North - then that's a show only ending for her. IMO.

GRRM is slowly showing her going back to her northern roots, but with some southern influences, notably like in show: Honesty may not always be the best policy.

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

She would be like the Queen of Thorns.

Wow! when I mentioned this, you totally disagreed. What changed your mind?

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

On the show Sansa calls Ned stupid and the Northerners are a bunch of whiny, traitorous weather vanes that I would not wish on anyone.  Sansa could be the Stark to take over considering dead Rickon, zombie Bran and psychopathic Arya.

First she doesn't call Ned or Robb stupid. Sansa states bluntly but correctly that they made some stupid decisions, that got them killed.

She was also correct in the assessment of those Northern lords. I'm not so sure Arya is a total psychopath, at least since she was brought back from the brink in S7.

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

The only character who can possibly be 12 at the end of the series is Arya.

I don't think that's correct, Sansa is 13 in the Vale closing in on 14, Arya is a year younger. GRRM sucks on time line, but I'm assuming more than a year passes in the next two books.

[Sunshinegal]

41 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I agree with this so much. Season 7 Bran had me seeing red. If you compare that Bran with the Bran if the earlier seasons ( and especially in comparison to his book counterpart) you can see they jumped the shark. He was definitely meant to be much more then just google Bran and exposition. I really hope they redeem him in season 8 and get his character back on track .

We are going with GRMM's ending so that gives me hope. 

[GrailKing]

I still think we will get ( assumption is all living ): A Stark in the North ( Bran, Jon, Sansa, Arya ) I think Rickon dies.

A Stark in the Riverlands ( Sansa or Arya ), a Stark in the Vale ( Sansa ) Maybe a Stark in the Storm Lands if Sansa and Robert control the RL and the Vale and if he lives or excepts his duty a Stark/Targ on the Throne .

I think Tywin's line extinct, but IF Brienne is carrying a Jaime bun, she raise it as a Tarth to keep it safe.

[SimoneS]

I can't imagine Bran married to Lyanna Mormont. Maybe Sansa and Arya don't end the story married to anyone. After all, their brother/cousin is likely to be King and I don't see him forcing either of them to marry. 

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

But anyways, Stannis and Aegon taking Winterfell and King's Landing ensures one thing that I think GRRM is really into. Heroes quarelling with each other.

I have seen a lot of arguments about Stannis that I disagree with for multiple reasons that I can't get into here because its book talk. If you'd like to discuss I guess we could go to the Winds of Winter thread.

 

[Colorful Mess]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't know how anyone can read the books and think that all Arya is and all she is going to be is a FM assassin

She has a strong sense of right/wrong and fairness but she absolutely must learn how justice can slide too easily into vengeance. Once she gets that - perhaps by running into Lady Stoneheart again and seeing how vengeance is a bankrupt idea - she might be on a path toward some kind of judicial role, especially for the smallfolk. But where is her training in courtly, diplomatic, and administrative politics? Is she able to charm people and use soft power? Sansa can do that and it's a powerful skill in the political sphere. The Stark sisters compliment each other.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

If you compare that Bran with the Bran if the earlier seasons ( and especially in comparison to his book counterpart) you can see they jumped the shark. He was definitely meant to be much more then just google Bran and exposition. I really hope they redeem him in season 8 and get his character back on track

Jumped the shark? The way Bran behaves now is pretty consistent with what happened to him (becoming the 3 Eyed Raven). A different thing is we don't like what happened with him. He is not the same person from early seasons, of course, that's character development, and character development in narrative doesn't necessarily means he will become better.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Wow! when I mentioned this, you totally disagreed. What changed your mind?

I don't recall disagreeing with this...Did I? Anyways, that's where I can see Sansa's arc heading if she does indeed marry SweetRobin. Considering that she has supposedly learned from LF, Cersei, Olenna, Margaery etc. I think her talents ultimately lie in that way. We shall see.

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

First she doesn't call Ned or Robb stupid. Sansa states bluntly but correctly that they made some stupid decisions, that got them killed.

She was also correct in the assessment of those Northern lords. I'm not so sure Arya is a total psychopath, at least since she was brought back from the brink in S7.

How does she know what stupid decisions Ned made that got him killed? Here's the thing - Ned was surrounded by enemies on enemy territory and he had to depend on people like LF - and considering that even folks like Tywin trusted LF, does that make him stupid? Hindsight is 20/20 and I am sure he would not have expected his own daughter to stupidly and selfishly betray him to Cersei. And considering that Sansa was still entertaining, listening to and taking advice from LF at this point, her calling Ned's decisions stupid is the pot calling the kettle black.

And  I agree she was correct on her assessment of the Northern Lords on the show. Which is what I mentioned before - the entire North is very different on the show and the books.  Their motivations are different, their actions are different. In the books we have big bucket Wull:

Quote

I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue

On the show we have Lord Glover.

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I don't think that's correct, Sansa is 13 in the Vale closing in on 14, Arya is a year younger. GRRM sucks on time line, but I'm assuming more than a year passes in the next two books.

Arya is currently 11. Considering how much trouble GRRM has aging up his characters, I doubt their adventures are going to continue for another two years. Especially since he mentioned we are going to be see more of the Others in the next two books. The Wall is most likely about to fall as well considering everything's that happened there. The story is supposed to move faster now that we are in the last act and all the characters have finished their learning arcs and now have to do.

Edited September 28, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Jumped the shark? The way Bran behaves now is pretty consistent with what happened to him (becoming the 3 Eyed Raven). A different thing is we don't like what happened with him. He is not the same person from early seasons, of course, that's character development, and character development in narrative doesn't necessarily means he will become better.

I don’t think  it’s consistent at all. At the end of season 6 when he first became the 3ER he didn’t act like the hollowed out google wiki he was in season 7. And the other 3ER didn’t act the way either. He was relatively normal all things considered. And when I say jumped the shark I meant in the sense that the way the series started out, it’s clear that Bran perspective and arc is important to the story overall. He was completely shunted to the side and overlooked in season 7 and that’s what I’m hoping they fix in season 8. You can feel fte to disagree ? 

[nikma]

But if that is his new personality there is no way to fix that in S8. Only if he somehow stops being 3 Eyed Raven. I think at the end of S6 they didn't decide yet how to portray this change.

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, turning Bran into a robot was very weird.  As you said, the old 3ER had been isolated in a tree for 1000 years and he seemed able to have normal interactions with people and was able to feel empathy (i.e. "you won't end up an old man in a tree").  It seems like the only reason they turned Bran into a robot was as an excuse to have Sansa be Lady of Winterfell instead of Bran resuming the title of Lord of Winterfell.

I hope they let poor Bran go back to being a person next season, I won't even complain if they just retcon his s7 robot persona and pretend he's been the same old Bran all along.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

I don’t think  it’s consistent at all. At the end of season 6 when he first became the 3ER he didn’t act like the hollowed out google wiki he was in season 7. And the other 3ER didn’t act the way either. He was relatively normal all things considered. And when I say jumped the shark I meant in the sense that the way the series started out, it’s clear that Bran perspective and arc is important to the story overall. He was completely shunted to the side and overlooked in season 7 and that’s what I’m hoping they fix in season 8. You can feel fte to disagree ? 

At the end of Season 6 he barely started to become the 3 Eyed Raven without a guide. Before, he had the previous 3 Eyed Raven as guide. And that makes a huge difference. And at the beginning of Season 7 more time has passed in that state. 

The importance of each character arc in the narrative is determined for the whole narrative. Therefore they did not jumped the shark.