S02.E10: Naka-Choko

[numbersix]

The minute I saw Verger I had a Twin Peaks flashback. (Just waiting for some conversation about baguettes with brie and butter.)

Edited May 4, 2014 by Lisin
no need to use the tags, just click insert photo icon and paste in the image link

[jeansheridan]

It's probably not a good sign for Michael Pitt that we're all talking about his hair!  Because when I rewatched I found him less twitchy.  My initial reaction was "ug, that hair!"  But he has real charm in his scene with Hannibal.  Do I quite believe that this is a man who will spend 10 years trying to get even with Hannibal?  Not quite yet.  But I do believe that this is a guy who would terrify his sister with a meat mannequin.  Of course she did try to kill him.  That would piss off a lot of people.  I wonder how she tried to do it.  

[lilmissprefect]

I actually liked this portrayal of Mason. I have seen Pitt do quietly menacing before, so I know he's capable of it, but I felt that this twitchy, genial sort of madness was much creepier, because you can actually see the satisfaction he's getting out of messing with Margot. Her fear energizes him, and that is terrifying. 

 

But the hair really is absolutely ridiculous. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by lilmissprefect

[MisterGlass]

The hair was a distraction, but once I got past it I appreciated the portrayal.  It is creepy to think of someone like Mason with access to unlimited financial resources.

 

I also try not to watch previews, since the previews are so misleading and I don't like going in with preconceptions.  Unfortunately, I also want to know what everyone else thought about the insanity that is this show.  It's a challenge.

[LittleIggy]

Guess I'm in the minority because I want Freddie to be dead and not for this to be a fake-out. A fake-out would be predictable, and I don't want this show to be predictable.

[lulee]

Guess I'm in the minority because I want Freddie to be dead and not for this to be a fake-out. A fake-out would be predictable, and I don't want this show to be predictable.

You want Freddie dead, but do you want Will to have killed her?

[arc]

If Freddie is still alive then Chilton hopefully is really dead because two faked deaths would be a tad too much.

From interviews, it sounds like Fuller and company left Chilton's fate somewhat unspecified because they don't know for sure if they can get Raul Esparza back in the future. But if he's alive, it's not even like they've written it so any main character had to be fooled into thinking he's dead.

Freddie, though, I'm pretty sure has to be alive, because I think Will straight-up deep-diving into murder/cannibalism would wreck the show. But the writers are playing it that at least Hannibal thinks Freddie is dead.

I'm guessing Hannibal's heightened sense of smell (and taste?) mean he wouldn't be fooled by fake "long pig". But even to catch a serial killer, I don't think that gets Will off the hook for desecrating Tiers' corpse legally nor morally.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm guessing that Freddie is alive, but I'm not sure that really gets Will out of the moral complexity he's put himself in and I'm not sure that I'd want it to. Like I said before, I think he will regret not shooting Hannibal when he had the chance...if it were me, I'd prefer being put back in that asylum to what this fishing expedition is doing to him now. 

 

That ménage-whatever was waaay too long. I'm no prude or anything, but it dragged on so long that I got up to get a cup of tea during it. Yawn.

 

This episode was just a bit too stylish for my taste. I usually like the balance they hit with the creepy and beauty, but I think they were trying too hard with this one. Overall though, it wasn't bad and it did move things along a bit.

[lilmissprefect]

 

A fake-out would be predictable, and I don't want this show to be predictable.

 

I agree. It would be very interesting and completely unexpected if Will actually killed Freddie. But I think that if that is the case, it might also very well kill the show (at least for me). I have no issue as of yet with Will exploring his darker side in order to trap Hannibal, but I think that if he starts killing relatively innocent people so that he can play murder besties with Dr. Lecter then he's not really playing, is he? I need to have at least one person on this show that is intelligent enough to catch Hannibal and that I can also root for. If Will goes off the deep end, I won't be able to do that, regardless of how predictable it is or isn't.

 

I think I've mentioned before that Will is what makes the show for me. If I can no longer bring myself to care about him, it might be time to check out.

[LittleIggy]

I started watching the show because of Mads, then kept watching because it is such an awesome, original show (and Raul Esparza was in the cast, too). Will is not a key factor in my viewing.

[MisterGlass]

I would not leave the show because of Will embracing the darkness, but I would have trouble seeing how the show would proceed.  Then again, this show is never quite what I anticipate.

[LittleIggy]

You want Freddie dead, but do you want Will to have killed her?

Would not be a problem for me.

[Snookums]

Here's my take on Will and Freddie:

 

 

So I'm guessing that Will somehow got through to Freddie and convinced her to disappear and then fed Hannibal some Randallpig.

 

Totally. This was set up from their first meeting, when Freddie's going on about how there's no way Chilton could be the Ripper. Will realizes that Freddie, whatever her myriad shortcomings, does take her journalism/ambition seriously and isn't going to write a book nailing the wrong guy--what Hollywood studio would buy that? So, he tells her what they're going to do.

Freddie goes to/corners Alana with her usual insensitive/none a' yer beeswax style, under Will's direction. He knows Alana has a lot more doubts then she'll admit to herself, that she's lying to herself (one reason she's been so irritating to watch--it's frustrating to see an intelligent person refuse to face the truth.). He knows she won't be able to help herself, that she'll bring it up in one way or another, and sure enough...

Freddy going out to the farm and the whole chase scene was obviously staged for or with Jack and for Hannibal. If he goes out there, the physical evidence (tire tracks, glass, footprints running) will show that Will did indeed chase and capture Freddie. Hannibal was obviously going to get rid of her after that dinner party conversation (him waiting in her hotel in his murder onesie) so this was the only way to keep her alive.

However, I can't understand the whole horror movie scene. I know they had to get the details right with the running footprints, bullet discharge, etc, but why go through the Will seeming to really terrorize Freddie? Either they were recording it for "proof" for Hannibal, they wanted her phone call to sound authentic, or it was a display of the story Will's going to tell Hannibal and never really happened.

As for Margot...

While I agree that she should leave, keep in mind that this is a woman who has been beaten, terrorized, threatened with rape by her twisted brother, and who is entirely financially dependent on a family that was run by the cruelest man alive, who openly condemned her as inhuman for not "breeding" *, who was absolutely fine with whatever Mason did to her and to other little girls (he apparently is still a rapist and broke Margot's arm when she wouldn't "take his chocolate and let him have his way.") Having been raised in this sick hothouse of an environment, who can really blame her for not having the inner tools to break free? She's been surrounded, terrified, and utterly without an ally her entire life, and her considerable intelligence has been turned against her by her hideous family to keep her in line.

*Honestly, what year is this? That line was the most horrible of all, with Mason so smug in his assurance that their father had rejected her as breeding stock. Plenty of lesbians have babies, as Margot went on to prove!

Totally. This was set up from their first meeting, when Freddie's going on about how there's no way Chilton could be the Ripper. Will realizes that Freddie, whatever her myriad shortcomings, does take her journalism/ambition seriously and isn't going to write a book nailing the wrong guy--what Hollywood studio would buy that? So, he tells her what they're going to do.

Freddie goes to/corners Alana with her usual insensitive/none a' yer beeswax style, under Will's direction. He knows Alana has a lot more doubts then she'll admit to herself, that she's lying to herself (one reason she's been so irritating to watch--it's frustrating to see an intelligent person refuse to face the truth.). He knows she won't be able to help herself, that she'll bring it up in one way or another, and sure enough...

Freddy going out to the farm and the whole chase scene was obviously staged for or with Jack and for Hannibal. If he goes out there, the physical evidence (tire tracks, glass, footprints running) will show that Will did indeed chase and capture Freddie. Hannibal was obviously going to get rid of her after that dinner party conversation (him waiting in her hotel in his murder onesie) so this was the only way to keep her alive.

However, I can't understand the whole horror movie scene. I know they had to get the details right with the running footprints, bullet discharge, etc, but why go through the Will seeming to really terrorize Freddie? Either they were recording it for "proof" for Hannibal, they wanted her phone call to sound authentic, or it was a display of the story Will's going to tell Hannibal and never really happened.

As for Margot...

While I agree that she should leave, keep in mind that this is a woman who has been beaten, terrorized, threatened with rape by her twisted brother, and who is entirely financially dependent on a family that was run by the cruelest man alive, who openly condemned her as inhuman for not "breeding" *, who was absolutely fine with whatever Mason did to her and to other little girls (he apparently is still a rapist and broke Margot's arm when she wouldn't "take his chocolate and let him have his way.") Having been raised in this sick hothouse of an environment, who can really blame her for not having the inner tools to break free? She's been surrounded, terrified, and utterly without an ally her entire life, and her considerable intelligence has been turned against her by her hideous family to keep her in line.

*Honestly, what year is this? That line was the most horrible of all, with Mason so smug in his assurance that their father had rejected her as breeding stock. Plenty of lesbians have babies, as Margot went on to proQuote

So I'm guessing that Will somehow got through to Freddie and convinced her to disappear and then fed Hannibal some Randallpig.

Totally. This was set up from their first meeting, when Freddie's going on about how there's no way Chilton could be the Ripper. Will realizes that Freddie, whatever her myriad shortcomings, does take her journalism/ambition seriously and isn't going to write a book nailing the wrong guy--what Hollywood studio would buy that? So, he tells her what they're going to do.

Freddie goes to/corners Alana with her usual insensitive/none a' yer beeswax style, under Will's direction. He knows Alana has a lot more doubts then she'll admit to herself, that she's lying to herself (one reason she's been so irritating to watch--it's frustrating to see an intelligent person refuse to face the truth.). He knows she won't be able to help herself, that she'll bring it up in one way or another, and sure enough...

Freddy going out to the farm and the whole chase scene was obviously staged for or with Jack and for Hannibal. If he goes out there, the physical evidence (tire tracks, glass, footprints running) will show that Will did indeed chase and capture Freddie. Hannibal was obviously going to get rid of her after that dinner party conversation (him waiting in her hotel in his murder onesie) so this was the only way to keep her alive.

However, I can't understand the whole horror movie scene. I know they had to get the details right with the running footprints, bullet discharge, etc, but why go through the Will seeming to really terrorize Freddie? Either they were recording it for "proof" for Hannibal, they wanted her phone call to sound authentic, or it was a display of the story Will's going to tell Hannibal and never really happened.

As for Margot...

While I agree that she should leave, keep in mind that this is a woman who has been beaten, terrorized, threatened with rape by her twisted brother, and who is entirely financially dependent on a family that was run by the cruelest man alive, who openly condemned her as inhuman for not "breeding" *, who was absolutely fine with whatever Mason did to her and to other little girls (he apparently is still a rapist and broke Margot's arm when she wouldn't "take his chocolate and let him have his way.") Having been raised in this sick hothouse of an environment, who can really blame her for not having the inner tools to break free? She's been surrounded, terrified, and utterly without an ally her entire life, and her considerable intelligence has been turned against her by her hideous family to keep her in line.

*Honestly, what year is this? That line was the most horrible of all, with Mason so smug in his assurance that their father had rejected her as breeding stock. Plenty of lesbians have babies, as Margot went on to prove!

 

 

I was really surprised to see the recap assume Freddie's demise. Not that I would know for sure but it just screamed set up to me.

[lilmissprefect]

I've been thinking, and if the narrative takes Will darkside, could this possibly be the way

that they introduce Clarice

? It seems a bit early for that, but they seem to be rushing things a bit anyway.

 

I could maybe see myself sticking around if that is the case, but they'd have to make me care pretty fast.

[Pixel]

I've been thinking, and if the narrative takes Will darkside, could this possibly be the way  Spoiler that they introduce Clarice ?

 

I thought I had heard that Fuller didn't have the rights for SOTL characters because of another network previously buying it to do a Clarice Starling series that hasn't happened.

[niven]

Guess I'm in the minority because I want Freddie to be dead and not for this to be a fake-out. A fake-out would be predictable, and I don't want this show to be predictable.

 

I'm with you. Catching Hannibal can only be satisfying if the audiences didn't see it coming. If the audiences already saw it coming and predicted it, yet Hannibal falls for it, then we're all smarter than dumbed-down Hannibal, and that wouldn't work. If it's so obvious that we can all see it, Hannibal should definitely see it too.

 

I would also prefer Freddie to be dead for the story to works, and I mean 100% dead, with her dead body being shown to us and Hannibal.

Edited May 6, 2014 by niven

[90PercentGravity]

I'm with you. Catching Hannibal can only be satisfying if the audiences didn't see it coming. If the audiences already saw it coming and predicted it, yet Hannibal falls for it, then we're all smarter than dumbed-down Hannibal, and that wouldn't work. If it's so obvious that we can all see it, Hannibal should definitely see it too.

But Will is Hannibal's weakness. His need to be "friends" with Will and determination to mold him clouds his judgement. I don't think it has anything to do with dumbing down. What we are seeing is Will finally effectively using himself against Hannibal.

[caseylane]

I would like to say I would keep watching if Will actually killed Freddie, but I don't think I would. Crossing that line would be just one step too far and would remove all symathy I have for Will's struggle to remain good. I would probaby watch an episode or 2 but then would just leave it on my DVR and delete it unwatched when I was running low of space.

[niven]

But Will is Hannibal's weakness. His need to be "friends" with Will and determination to mold him clouds his judgement. I don't think it has anything to do with dumbing down. What we are seeing is Will finally effectively using himself against Hannibal.

Like I said, if the audiences never believe that Will could kill Freddie, then IMO they haven't earned that "Hannibal falls for it" plot (if they really go that way). I don't really understand this situation, if Will kills Freddie, people will be unhappy, because it'll be OOC, Will would never kills innocent people. If Will didn't kill Freddie and yet Hannibal falls for it, then our usualy smart villain is actually very stupid, because how could he actually believes someone like Will could kill an innocent person? Neither options make sense to me.

Edited May 6, 2014 by niven

[lilmissprefect]

I don't know. I tend to think that it's not much different from how the audience is fully aware of what Hannibal is, but Jack and Alana keep not seeing it. It's irritating but excusable, because in show they don't know everything that we do, and in show right now it honestly looks like Will did the deed. Heck, it looks enough like it that we're debating it right now. To me that isn't sloppy, or dumbing down anything. It's raising legitimate questions about where Will is going. It's nervewracking, sure, but that means that obviously the writing is doing its job.

 

On a lighter note, I firmly believe that if Will is going to be murder besties with Hannibal, the least he could do is get Will  his very own plastic onesie.

 

ETA: Jinx, 90PercentGravity!

Edited May 6, 2014 by lilmissprefect

[90PercentGravity]

Like I said, if the audiences never believe that Will could kill Freddie, then IMO they haven't earned that "Hannibal falls for it" plot (if they really go that way).

I would say that the fact that we've been debating whether or not he killed her suggests that the audience does think that he could have killed her. Many people think that he didn't, but also think that he might have. There is a difference between hoping that he didn't do it and knowing for sure that he didn't. We also have the benefit of seeing Will when Hannibal doesn't.

Edited May 6, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[niven]

That's also one of thing, we actually saw Will dragging Freddie out of the car (what happened with Fuller's "no violence against female" policy by the way?), but even then, we still didn't believe he could kill her. Can't imagine how Hannibal who didn't see anything could believe Will did killed her. Anyway, my debate isn't on whether Will did killed Freddie, but on whether another fake death plot is going to be used again. That's why I hope he did killed her, the fake death plots in this show is getting ridiculous.

[Nutjob]

That's also one of thing, we actually saw Will dragging Freddie out of the car (what happened with Fuller's "no violence against female" policy by the way?), but even then, we still didn't believe he could kill her. Can't imagine how Hannibal who didn't see anything could believe Will did killed her. Anyway, my debate isn't on whether Will did killed Freddie, but on whether another fake death plot is going to be used again. That's why I hope he did killed her, the fake death plots in this show is getting ridiculous.

 

What fake death plots? We still don't know if Chilton is dead or not, and everyone else who has been suspected to be dead has...been dead. Unless I'm forgetting something.

 

I love this show, but if they make Will into a full-on, cold blooded killer, I'm out. Even Dexter had "the code," whereas it now appears Will is just killing for the rush and because he has "transformed." I think it's a mistake if it's real, and will leave no one on the show for me to root for.

[MisterGlass]

Miriam was also thought dead, but found alive.

I still expect Bella and her illness to play a part in the unravelling of the Hannibal image.

[niven]

There are Gideon and Miriam from season1, and then there are Chilton, Matthew Brown, and (my theory from watching next week's preview) Freddie in the current season. My guess is

usually when there's a burnt corpse from a character we're not sure is dead or not (fiery guy on wheelchair in the preview), said corpse will be unidentifiable and unrecognizable, but DNA or whatever will point to the body being Freddie, this is the oldest and weakest tv trope fake death plot.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong, and the show won't actually go down that route, but that's my suspicion. I'll actually be very disappointed if I'm right.

Edited May 7, 2014 by niven

[lilmissprefect]

It wouldn't bother me personally, but then, I am a fan of other shows/books that seem to feature a "death" every new season/book, so.

 

Can someone refresh my memory about Matthew Brown? I know Jack shot him, but were we led to believe that the wound was fatal? I honestly can't remember, and don't have easy access to the episode for verification.

 

I mean, if he shot him the same way Bev shot Molly Shannon's Crazy New Mommy in S1E4, or even the way Jack shot Will in the Season 1 finale, then I don't see why people would have assumed he was dead. I don't recall thinking so myself, but like I said my memory is a bit hazy on that part of the episode (I was distracted by Will's  "Feel the stag. Know the stag. Be the stag." moment).

 

And we never saw where Will shot Gideon. I'll admit that I assumed he was dead because he was on the ground, but he obviously hadn't been shot in the head (a la Chilton), so I'm willing to give that a pass, too.

 

So to my view (depending on the Brown thing), that makes one confirmed fake!death, and two maybes. Maybe it makes me easy, but I really enjoyed both characters and would love to see them again, so I'm willing to let it go if they are both alive.

[arc]

 

Can someone refresh my memory about Matthew Brown? I know Jack shot him, but were we led to believe that the wound was fatal? I honestly can't remember, and don't have easy access to the episode for verification.

Personally, I thought that shot was fatal, but I was digging around about this yesterday and supposedly Bryan Fuller tweeted that it wasn't and Brown was in custody.  At some point I feel like Fannibals are going to adopt something like the pre-Disney Star Wars fan grades of canon.  That went in descending order something like George canon, film canon, Extended Universe canon...  Here I think it would go (for the show) show canon, Fuller's interviews/tweets canon, Harris book canon, films canon...

[DangerousMinds]

I still think Chilton is dead.

[lulee]

I still think Chilton is dead.

After reading an interview with Fuller in the past few days about Raul Esparza keeping a crazy shedule and flying in to do shooting for Hannibal on his days off from SVU, and knowing that SVU got picked up, I think Chilton's dead unless Esparza could be available at the time when Fuller/the storyline would want him.

[Epeolatrix]

(what happened with Fuller's "no violence against female" policy by the way?)

What he'd said was, "I don't want to do rape stories on the show, because I don't find them entertaining. I think that they're exploitive. There are some rape elements intrinsic in the novels that I'm, like, how do we shift that story so it's not about rape."

[arc]

Thanks to Cranberry, I just found the blog of Janice Poon, who does food styling for the show.  In her ep 10 writeup, she mentions a cut line:

Hannibal: "Will, you slice the ginger"
Will's answer, "I already have" was dropped from the early script but when Hannibal and Will cook their first "I know it's people" meal together, can you doubt that it's Freddie?

THAT's why Hannibal is as taken in as he is!  Will is fully embracing the cannibal wordplay!

[90PercentGravity]

I'm glad they dropped the line. It played a lot better without it. The original was a bit too on-the-nose.

[arc]

Fair enough, though to me many of Hannibal's puns when serving food are way over the top and they're only undercut by Hannibal/Mikkelsen's very dry delivery.